1
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I'm God-Minus-One.

2
00:00:04,870 --> 00:00:10,470
I'm the point of contact and organizer for the DC groups in Baltimore, Maryland.

3
00:00:11,290 --> 00:00:13,330
I'm Mad Hat from Dallas.

4
00:00:13,330 --> 00:00:17,830
I'm on the DC-214 group, and I want to say that I think we're the first official group to have a scene whore.

5
00:00:20,690 --> 00:00:22,010
I'm Grifter.

6
00:00:22,010 --> 00:00:27,010
I organize the DC-801 group out of Salt Lake City.

7
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And I'm Dr.

8
00:00:28,950 --> 00:00:29,410
Chaos.

9
00:00:29,410 --> 00:00:31,850
I organize the DC-404 group out of Atlanta.

10
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So these are five of the best groups we've got, and I think at last count we were at like 88 or something like that.

11
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Yeah, 88, and we have DEFCON groups as far away as Tehran, Iran, Ankara, Turkey, Penang, Malaysia, and Tokyo, and I think we just got one in Brisbane, Australia.

12
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So we've got them all over the world.

13
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Oh, and Saudi Arabia.

14
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We got one in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

15
00:01:02,750 --> 00:01:07,850
Yeah, if you've got a DEFCON group in Iran, you know you're pretty good, right?

16
00:01:09,210 --> 00:01:12,050
Alright, so I'm going to start with Noid.

17
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What goals did you have in mind when you wanted to start a DEFCON group?

18
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When you started this, what was it that you were trying to accomplish?

19
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Well, I think initially for me on a personal level, it was to alleviate boredom.

20
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I used to run the Los Angeles 2600 group, and then after I moved to Washington, I sort of fell out of things for a bit and found myself with a lot of free time on my hands.

21
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And I'd been to some of the different meetings, some of the LUGs, some of the Unix user groups, the local 2600, and decided that, you know, we should do a DC206, keep it small, and just strictly focus not on talking about tech, but focus specifically on doing things.

22
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Because, as we all know, if you get more than four or five hackers involved in a project, nothing gets done.

23
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So if we keep the group really small, we could pick a project each month and build stuff.

24
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And that was the plan, was to actually build functional equipment.

25
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Which we've been somewhat successful at.

26
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Alright, this one goes out to all the groups.

27
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What kind of projects, cool projects, has your group worked on so far?

28
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So what are some of the coolest ones you've seen?

29
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Well, we built a GPS jammer.

30
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We actually have a radio and TV jammer we're building, provided the guy here with the kit finds me at some point during the convention.

31
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What else?

32
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We built something else that was really cool.

33
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We reverse-engineered an IDS appliance we'd come across.

34
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Found out that the processor was actually designed to support keyboard and video out.

35
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They just hadn't put the stuff in, so we had to sit down and do some micro-drilling and were able to turn the thing into a fully functional computer that's this big and can get mounted so we have a portable hotspot.

36
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Oh, that's cool.

37
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Anyone else?

38
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We set up Silk Network that a lot of people have been using.

39
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It's like IRC, but actually secure.

40
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Lots of different projects.

41
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The spa thing that we presented on at Black Hat and mentioned here was all based on discussions we had there.

42
00:03:20,830 --> 00:03:22,030
Okay.

43
00:03:22,050 --> 00:03:24,650
We bring content to DEF CON.

44
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We haven't been very project-based in Atlanta yet.

45
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We've talked a lot about projects, but we've been kind of more thematically oriented.

46
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We do presentations.

47
00:03:36,070 --> 00:03:41,090
We have folks come talk about pertinent security topics, pertinent hacking topics.

48
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Of course, we do our meetings at a tequila bar, so unless we get a consensus really early on, we don't really know what projects are going to come about the next meeting.

49
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But we've had discussion around projects, building components, building devices.

50
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We've talked about modifying wireless devices, and we've gone into detail on the process of doing so, but we haven't actually done any projects as part of the meetings yet.

51
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Right.

52
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DC410, it started out as a close group of friends.

53
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It started growing larger and larger.

54
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We do presentations every week.

55
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We started organizing a CTF, and basically from the ground up, we're starting with basic tools and going all the way up, teaching everyone how to use it, showing them how to use it, which has really been cool.

56
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We have speakers.

57
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Chris Hurley comes a lot, a couple times.

58
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Jack Holleran's been there.

59
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So we get some people that know their stuff coming and doing talks.

60
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So who are some of the cooler speakers that you guys have had there?

61
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Have you had any speakers at yours?

62
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We have talks every meeting, so we meet once a month at a bar, and we're lucky to have SimpleNomad, so anytime we're searching for something, SimpleNomad normally steps up and says, I'll do a talk.

63
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But we've also had some great other talks by other people like from CAU and other people from NMRC, so we've been really lucky to have some of the people in the Dallas area.

64
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Very cool.

65
00:05:10,070 --> 00:05:11,850
Are there any questions out here yet?

66
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None?

67
00:05:12,870 --> 00:05:13,490
Alright.

68
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Where would you like to see your group, technically, in a year?

69
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What are your goals for the future for your group?

70
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I personally, for the DC206, we're one of the groups that isn't doing focused talks with some guest speakers, and that's something I'd like to see a little bit more of.

71
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Because particularly up in the Seattle area, we've got some really bright people like the GhettoHackers, and then some other people that just don't really pop up on radar, and some folks down in Portland.

72
00:05:40,450 --> 00:05:47,510
I know we've got a guy who wants to come up and talk about Asterix, and we have another friend of ours who worked for SourceForge.

73
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He knows Snort inside and out, so we want to have him come up and talk about it.

74
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It just seems that logistics have been a problem for us.

75
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The Snort guy's got cancer, so he's getting chemo right now, and the Portland guy's availability is scattered because he's all over the place.

76
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But a year from now, I'd like to see us having each meeting with a focused speaker at the beginning, and then a technical portion at the end of the meeting where we can apply what we've been taught.

77
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Like if the Snort guy comes in and talks for an hour, we can then sit down with some Snort boxes and practice writing filters and things like that, making our own signatures.

78
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Because we've got a pretty wide group of people that show up.

79
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We've got some people that work in the industry.

80
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We've got some people that are just not in the industry, but really smart technical people.

81
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And we've got a lot of people that show up that just want to learn new stuff, so it's a chance for all of us to pick up something new.

82
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Very cool.

83
00:06:44,870 --> 00:06:45,590
Guys?

84
00:06:47,490 --> 00:06:52,890
The one thing I would like to do is expand a little more, maybe get some more people with deeper knowledge.

85
00:06:54,230 --> 00:07:03,530
One of the things, we hold our meeting at a college campus, which is great because we have computers for everyone to use, we have projectors, what not.

86
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The college actually buys our pizza for our meetings, figuring that the professor that works there is getting all this knowledge by going to this group.

87
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So I'll throw in $40 to feed these guys, hoping that he's going to get more knowledge every month.

88
00:07:19,650 --> 00:07:32,150
So basically, the only downside with that is the fact that they advertise it there and we get people that show up once in a while and have absolutely no interest in computers whatsoever.

89
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Kind of like the scene whore he was talking about earlier.

90
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They just want the pizza?

91
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Pretty much.

92
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She, in theory, has interest in computers.

93
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That's just the secondary interest.

94
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Vibrators don't count.

95
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I'd like to see DC214 get some more organized projects for the entire group.

96
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Spa was cool, but it was more of... we had several discussions about it, and then Nomad and I actually did a lot of the work on it, as well as Druid helping out.

97
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But I'd like to see us... in the front row, I've got seven of my guys right here.

98
00:08:08,090 --> 00:08:13,530
But we're not really... unfortunately, we haven't really done anything with any of the contests that are going on.

99
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But I'd love to see us get involved in the contest so that next year we have one or two projects in there.

100
00:08:19,410 --> 00:08:22,450
Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same boat.

101
00:08:22,450 --> 00:08:26,490
I think it'd be nice to get a little bit more direction as far as projects go.

102
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Also, nailing down a specific location where we'll meet.

103
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Currently, we'll just meet whenever we can.

104
00:08:36,110 --> 00:08:37,510
We'll get the most people together.

105
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We have an IRC channel that everybody pretty much idles in, and when the topic changes to DC801 meeting here, it's like sending up the bat signal and everybody comes running to wherever.

106
00:08:49,610 --> 00:08:59,070
We spend a lot of time at IHOP at midnight, one in the morning, with printouts of all different things and a pen, running over papers and stuff.

107
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And then the next time we'll meet, we'll meet at somebody's house and have a bunch of food.

108
00:09:04,670 --> 00:09:08,230
We'll work on little DEF CON projects that we're working on.

109
00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:19,330
We do the DEF CON movie channel, so we'll have all the filler running on the TV in the background so we can watch it and see what's jacked and what's not.

110
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Just start to put things together, the things that we've worked on, those nights eating pancakes.

111
00:09:28,430 --> 00:09:36,330
But basically I think that's the direction on projects and being able to focus on something and then release that to the community.

112
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Getting people to be able to get together all at once.

113
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I'm sure those of you in DC groups know how hard it is to have everyone who is working on a project be able to get together at the same time.

114
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We have jobs, lives, wives, whatever.

115
00:09:53,590 --> 00:10:02,810
So I think just more focus and you can never have too much organization as far as getting your projects out there.

116
00:10:03,470 --> 00:10:07,390
Yeah, I'd have to echo Alana the same regarding organization.

117
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I've actually been really proud of our group.

118
00:10:09,170 --> 00:10:16,290
We have really good attendance and we've got a really good body of knowledge between all the folks who come to the meetings.

119
00:10:16,290 --> 00:10:21,670
We've probably got an average of 25 to 35 people who come to the meetings each month.

120
00:10:22,390 --> 00:10:29,710
Lately we've had kind of a waning attendance because I've been a little bit slack on sending out meeting notices and meeting updates.

121
00:10:29,710 --> 00:10:35,730
But overall we probably have a core of 15 who are guaranteed not going to miss a meeting.

122
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And then we've got another 15 who generally always show up.

123
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We've got a lot of smart people in the community in Atlanta.

124
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It's truly an IT hub there.

125
00:10:45,310 --> 00:10:48,810
So echoing what Noid said, we've got a lot of security professionals.

126
00:10:48,810 --> 00:10:50,090
We've got a lot of tech geeks.

127
00:10:50,090 --> 00:10:54,110
We've got a lot of aspiring security professionals and aspiring hackers.

128
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And that's been very good because everybody's hungry for knowledge.

129
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Everybody's got ideas about what they want to talk about and what they want to do.

130
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And I think really my goal would be to kind of just funnel that energy and follow in the same path that we've gone so far.

131
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I think we've seen a lot of good growth and development across the past year plus that we've been holding meetings.

132
00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:16,050
We're very lucky with our venue.

133
00:11:16,130 --> 00:11:18,670
The exception being that we're about to run out of space.

134
00:11:19,470 --> 00:11:27,250
I kind of kid... I'm not kidding in that we actually have our meetings at a tequila bar, but they're closed on the one day during the month when we're doing our meetings.

135
00:11:27,250 --> 00:11:29,410
So we have complete run of the place.

136
00:11:29,410 --> 00:11:30,890
We've got ceiling-mounted projectors.

137
00:11:30,890 --> 00:11:32,030
We've got free Wi-Fi.

138
00:11:32,030 --> 00:11:36,830
And of course we have a bar for everybody to imbibe while they're there.

139
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So we generally have a good time.

140
00:11:38,290 --> 00:11:42,470
We've got the age range and our attendees varies from...

141
00:11:42,470 --> 00:11:44,950
I think the youngest attendee we've got is 15.

142
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The oldest probably being 45.

143
00:11:48,670 --> 00:11:51,090
So pretty much across the spectrum.

144
00:11:51,090 --> 00:11:53,370
And again, people come from everywhere.

145
00:11:53,710 --> 00:11:55,770
I would like to increase attendance.

146
00:11:55,770 --> 00:12:01,570
Of course the problem with that is that we're going to hit the walls on how many people we can contain in our existing venue.

147
00:12:01,570 --> 00:12:08,310
And we're going to have to find somewhere else that's as friendly and as hospitable with a big group of drunken hackers.

148
00:12:08,450 --> 00:12:10,910
So do you see a big desire?

149
00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:13,830
Do you see a lot of people looking for something like this?

150
00:12:13,830 --> 00:12:14,530
I do.

151
00:12:14,750 --> 00:12:26,030
I guess to go back a step, one of the things that I would like to see more is a lot of the folks in our group, I think they're very smart, they've got great ideas, but they have a lot of hesitation to speaking.

152
00:12:26,250 --> 00:12:28,470
They don't want to get up and do the presentations.

153
00:12:28,670 --> 00:12:38,510
We've got a guy in the group who could probably do things with a wireless access point, modifications to a WRT-54G that I couldn't dream of.

154
00:12:38,510 --> 00:12:39,890
But he doesn't want to talk about it.

155
00:12:39,890 --> 00:12:45,770
He'd rather write a presentation and give it for somebody else to get up and talk about the project.

156
00:12:45,770 --> 00:12:49,090
So I'd like to see the people in our group becoming more participatory.

157
00:12:49,090 --> 00:12:52,230
I mean, I think people do, they are looking for it.

158
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:58,030
They're looking for this opportunity to come and geek out with everybody else and talk security, talk shop, talk tech.

159
00:12:58,710 --> 00:13:02,970
I'm hoping that more folks will get up and kind of take part in the presentation process.

160
00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:10,690
We've probably had five different speakers across the past year, but it's a lot of the same people coming back up and doing presentations.

161
00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:11,430
Right, right.

162
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:15,190
Just out of curiosity, how many out of the five groups here have that problem?

163
00:13:16,090 --> 00:13:16,730
Absolutely.

164
00:13:17,310 --> 00:13:18,090
We do.

165
00:13:18,610 --> 00:13:25,810
We will have someone, like one of our guys, oh, I'm going to write a presentation on this.

166
00:13:25,810 --> 00:13:26,610
I'm like, great.

167
00:13:26,690 --> 00:13:27,470
Call him up.

168
00:13:27,470 --> 00:13:28,670
Oh, yeah, I'm on my way there.

169
00:13:28,670 --> 00:13:29,770
I'm on my way there.

170
00:13:29,850 --> 00:13:31,550
Never showed up and did the presentation.

171
00:13:32,570 --> 00:13:38,350
And you know, a lot of people, we have people there that are, oh, I'm a government contractor, I'm doing this, blah, blah, blah.

172
00:13:38,350 --> 00:13:42,170
I'm talking about all this cool shit that they're doing.

173
00:13:42,170 --> 00:13:48,910
And then by the time, you're like, you know, why don't you step forward and do a presentation and benefit your knowledge of the rest of us?

174
00:13:49,270 --> 00:13:55,970
So it's really, it's the only really problem that my group is having right now is to get the others motivated.

175
00:13:56,790 --> 00:14:12,210
I think part of the thing that I've seen the difference between our DC meeting and our 2600 group is when we meet for 2600 and we give presentations, somebody stands up in front of the whole group and they just talk to everybody.

176
00:14:12,210 --> 00:14:31,150
They present like they were presenting, you know, in a small forum where with the DC groups, it's a little, I know I just got done ranting on organized, but it's a little more organized in the fact of like, I don't know, that they can feel comfortable that they're not going to be ridiculed.

177
00:14:31,150 --> 00:14:34,970
They're not, it's more of an informal setting.

178
00:14:34,970 --> 00:14:46,470
So like I said, if somebody's house or at IHOP or whatever like that, it's easier to talk around a table while you're eating, you know, breakfast with friends than it is to get up and rant to an entire group of people.

179
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:57,450
So, I don't know, some of those guys who can't talk in front of the big groups can sit there and talk, you know, over, you know, eggs or something like that.

180
00:14:57,450 --> 00:15:02,110
Or I'm sure once they get shit-faced, they're willing to talk about whatever it is that they're talking.

181
00:15:02,110 --> 00:15:05,090
You actually bring up a good point.

182
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:06,970
We've heard the question over and over.

183
00:15:07,190 --> 00:15:09,570
Can you run a DCG in a 2600?

184
00:15:09,570 --> 00:15:11,590
Is there a huge difference and what is it?

185
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:12,630
Does it matter?

186
00:15:13,150 --> 00:15:15,190
I mean, what are your issues with running both?

187
00:15:15,190 --> 00:15:18,470
Because several of these people run both at the same time, right?

188
00:15:20,290 --> 00:15:26,610
We try to work really hard to bring the folks from the local 2600 chapter to our meetings.

189
00:15:26,610 --> 00:15:34,090
I think there's a significantly different focus and it's probably almost the direct contrast of what Grifter said.

190
00:15:34,090 --> 00:15:37,930
At least in Atlanta, the 2600 group, it's very informal.

191
00:15:37,930 --> 00:15:40,310
It's held at a food court in the local mall.

192
00:15:40,350 --> 00:15:42,310
There's no real presentations.

193
00:15:42,310 --> 00:15:48,490
It's not always topically oriented, so it's more of just a get-together, hangout, talk about whatever's on everybody's minds.

194
00:15:48,490 --> 00:16:04,650
Whereas with DC groups, we've tried to really focus on kind of keeping what brings everybody to Vegas every year for Black Hat, which is, hey, we've got 30 people who come to a meeting, 25 of them would love to see a topic on the latest attacks on EAP,

195
00:16:04,650 --> 00:16:06,630
the latest attacks on WPA.

196
00:16:06,630 --> 00:16:15,610
Just tools for improving or for attacking common hardware, common software.

197
00:16:15,610 --> 00:16:21,570
So by keeping kind of the presentation focused, I think we've brought a really big group to the meetings.

198
00:16:21,570 --> 00:16:26,270
And I think we've got a lot of camaraderie with the folks that are doing 2600 meetings in Atlanta.

199
00:16:26,270 --> 00:16:32,110
In fact, the folks that pseudo-organize the 2600 meetings commonly show up at our meetings.

200
00:16:32,110 --> 00:16:36,490
I can't say that I'm always at the 2600 meetings, but it's more of a scheduling issue for me.

201
00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:38,670
Okay, you got a question?

202
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,000
Then you're lucky.

203
00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:03,200
He said every 2600 meeting he's been to in San Francisco sounds identical to what we're describing in the DC groups.

204
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,340
And my comment was, then he's lucky.

205
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:12,520
I've only been to a couple of 2600 meetings in Dallas, and I have nothing positive to say, so I'm not going to say anything.

206
00:17:15,420 --> 00:17:16,720
There's a guy in the back.

207
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,280
I hear comments.

208
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:19,000
Who's got...

209
00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:23,860
It's Humperdinck.

210
00:17:24,460 --> 00:17:25,040
I have to agree.

211
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,880
I think if you've got a well-organized 2600 chapter, that's awesome.

212
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,960
And I think that's been kind of one of the goals with a lot of the DC groups has been to kind of fill a gap.

213
00:17:34,220 --> 00:17:41,500
You know, the 2600 meetings, I think, in general, like I said, I speak only for Atlanta, but they tend to be more of just a social gathering.

214
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:46,300
Agreed?

215
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:48,200
You know, there's a difference.

216
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,440
At least there's an apparent difference in Salt Lake City.

217
00:17:51,440 --> 00:18:02,360
And that's at the 2600 meetings, there are a lot more people who are beginners, who are new to it, and they... what's that?

218
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:03,900
Right.

219
00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:04,280
That's right.

220
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:05,040
As there should be.

221
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,700
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be.

222
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,560
There's some younger individuals.

223
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:14,480
It's a little less mature of a setting where we have the stand-up-and-talk thing.

224
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,160
It's because if you don't, they'll see something shiny, and they'll go running off into a wall.

225
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,220
Where... yeah.

226
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:28,280
Where the DC groups that we have tend to be the guys that know stuff.

227
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,780
And they come, and they want to work on projects, and they are project-oriented.

228
00:18:31,780 --> 00:18:37,140
They can sit down, and I mean, that's one of the best things that's come out of these groups.

229
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,280
For us, it's like, I'm an idiot.

230
00:18:41,380 --> 00:18:43,120
I don't know everything.

231
00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:51,320
So, if I don't know something, but I get a great idea, I can turn to a group of guys and say, hey, make the magic happen.

232
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:54,640
And they're like, alright, well, what are we going to do?

233
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,580
And we sit down, hash it out, and then, boom, there's a new tool or something.

234
00:18:59,580 --> 00:19:01,960
And that's awesome, but that's the thing.

235
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:09,000
At a 2600 meeting, we don't have that... we just haven't seen that project-oriented attitude.

236
00:19:09,180 --> 00:19:13,260
It's a little bite-sized information, and then they go.

237
00:19:13,260 --> 00:19:20,180
Where, with the DC groups, it's more of long-term projects, where people work on something for 6, 8, 10 months.

238
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,140
So, I don't know.

239
00:19:22,140 --> 00:19:23,980
That's just how it is in Utah.

240
00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:25,400
I don't know about San Francisco.

241
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:33,240
One of the things about Seattle I like is the fact that it's not a difference in focus, per se, between the Seattle 2600 and the DC-206.

242
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,360
It's just a difference in size.

243
00:19:35,740 --> 00:19:43,020
We find that, since our group is smaller, it's easier to actually get projects done, because people have tasks and there's not a lot of chatter.

244
00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:46,880
The signal, the noise, kind of dials in a little bit more.

245
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:54,340
Because, mostly, I'd say 99% of the people at the DC-206 are regular attendees of the Seattle 2600.

246
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:56,360
So...

247
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,000
Yeah, yes.

248
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,460
Well, no, okay.

249
00:20:04,460 --> 00:20:06,260
Yes and no.

250
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:12,080
The DCGs have a very primary goal of continuing to learn about technology.

251
00:20:12,580 --> 00:20:15,300
I mean, we don't give a damn about politics, right?

252
00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:16,320
We don't talk about it.

253
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:22,140
We're there to talk protocols and servers, applications, vulnerabilities, whatever else.

254
00:20:24,940 --> 00:20:26,240
Well, and that's fine.

255
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,060
He said, everybody's different and everybody's got their own ideas.

256
00:20:30,060 --> 00:20:31,520
I totally agree with that.

257
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,940
The forum for DCGs is, we're focusing it on technology.

258
00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:39,160
Not every 2600, though.

259
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:40,520
For us, we were just trying to...

260
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,360
Have you read the magazine lately?

261
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,100
We were just trying to fill a gap.

262
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:45,220
Have you ever read, you know...

263
00:20:45,220 --> 00:20:47,900
You may have a very special 2600.

264
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:48,740
Congratulations.

265
00:20:48,740 --> 00:20:52,120
We don't have 30 people who come to the local 2600 meetings.

266
00:20:52,140 --> 00:20:58,480
So what we were looking for was building camaraderie amongst a group of people who didn't come out to the 2600 meetings.

267
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,680
A lot of the folks that are in the professional security community in Atlanta wouldn't go hang out at the food court at the mall.

268
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:09,780
So there was no participation from people that have professional experience out doing penetration testing.

269
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:12,560
Or, you know, doing product reviews with security products.

270
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,420
What we were looking for was building that camaraderie.

271
00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:20,340
Bringing together the same kids and the same folks that go to 2600 meetings.

272
00:21:20,340 --> 00:21:25,920
But with the suits that want to come out and hang out and see a presentation or do a presentation.

273
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,080
And focus more on some of the how-to's.

274
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,140
The understanding behind the scenes that you don't get at the food court or the mall in a lot of the 2600 meetings.

275
00:21:34,260 --> 00:21:37,320
Not every place has a 2600 meeting, too.

276
00:21:37,940 --> 00:21:39,340
So, it is unfortunate.

277
00:21:39,340 --> 00:21:40,480
Well , it depends.

278
00:21:40,580 --> 00:21:44,920
If you've been to some of the 2600 meetings I've been to, I'd rather not have one.

279
00:21:45,180 --> 00:21:46,900
I mean, quite honestly.

280
00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:47,700
Alright?

281
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,560
So that's the goal.

282
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,940
This poor guy in the back has had his arm up to the point where it's going to fall off.

283
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,880
You're going to have to yell, though, because I'm way up here.

284
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,060
Scavenger hunt.

285
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:04,120
Gritcher, I hate you.

286
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:04,940
Okay, kids.

287
00:22:04,940 --> 00:22:06,160
Stay in school.

288
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:08,000
It's a good thing you made him wait.

289
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:09,520
Actually, yes.

290
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,960
I don't remember how many points that's worth.

291
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:12,920
Sorry, guys.

292
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,240
Yeah, we're not saying that you don't have a great group.

293
00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:01,500
What we're saying is we have had such experiences that we're not getting what we need to out of that.

294
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:03,540
And that's why we created the DCGs.

295
00:23:03,540 --> 00:23:06,680
I mean, some of the 2600 groups are really dialed in.

296
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,340
Like, the LA 2600 is tight.

297
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,560
San Francisco, in fact, there's actually a lot of crossover between the two.

298
00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:15,920
Kind of, you know, we made flyers.

299
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,720
They said, oh, we should make flyers, too.

300
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,900
And, you know, setting mailing lists up and stuff.

301
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:21,240
And there's a lot of crossover there.

302
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,220
But there are some places that have 2600 meetings and DEF CON meetings.

303
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:25,980
That suck.

304
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,360
So this is an attempt to...

305
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,260
Every once in a while, I've been to a couple of places where there's a 2600 group.

306
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:36,740
But nobody goes to it anymore because it's run by four or five guys that have known each other since high school.

307
00:23:37,380 --> 00:23:39,400
And it's kind of a click and nobody's really welcome at it.

308
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,560
So they say, you know, we'll just go start our own thing.

309
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:43,480
And this is their own thing they can start.

310
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:44,440
Or vice versa.

311
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,500
They could say, you know, our local DEF CON group sucks.

312
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:47,980
We're going to start a 2600 meeting.

313
00:23:48,260 --> 00:23:51,820
For us, to be honest, it wasn't really... it's not a matter of competition.

314
00:23:51,820 --> 00:23:54,120
We just wanted to do something that wasn't being done in Atlanta.

315
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:57,080
And I think we've achieved that with the DC group.

316
00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:00,460
All right.

317
00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:01,220
You know what?

318
00:24:01,220 --> 00:24:02,340
You got good points.

319
00:24:02,340 --> 00:24:04,120
Let's have that discussion offline.

320
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:05,040
That's a beer conversation.

321
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,040
We should give him a microphone.

322
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:08,260
Yeah.

323
00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:22,120
What are the hardest things they had to deal with?

324
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:25,360
Probably find a suitable meeting location.

325
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,160
Our first two meetings were at a mall food court.

326
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:34,500
And, you know, no presenters come, but there's no, you know, projectors or anything.

327
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:35,600
It's loud.

328
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:36,500
You can't hear it.

329
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:40,480
Security walked around us about four or five times asking us what the hell we were doing there.

330
00:24:40,660 --> 00:24:44,420
So now we got our meeting location at the local college.

331
00:24:44,420 --> 00:24:47,140
And, you know, we have pretty much everything we need to.

332
00:24:47,140 --> 00:24:48,780
The whole school is closed.

333
00:24:48,780 --> 00:24:51,480
We normally have them Saturday nights.

334
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,720
School's closed.

335
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:53,540
You know, people...

336
00:24:53,540 --> 00:24:55,480
Highways drives down from Philadelphia.

337
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,300
We have people coming from out of state.

338
00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:01,020
We got a couple of guys that drive two, three hours to come to the meetings.

339
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:03,480
We have computers for everybody.

340
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:10,040
We have, you know, a segmented network that we can do everything we want to with removable hard drives.

341
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:14,900
The possibilities are...

342
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:19,260
That would be the place that I would recommend if there's one in your area, like a local community college or whatever.

343
00:25:19,260 --> 00:25:20,340
Try and get in there.

344
00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:24,760
And they'll frequently let you have the rooms for free or for a small donation.

345
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,840
Or sometimes the person who reserves the room needs to be a student.

346
00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:35,340
But at the same time, you know, it's not terribly hard to find computer science students at the local university that want to hang out with like-minded people.

347
00:25:36,220 --> 00:25:39,900
Some of the biggest problems we had were the location thing.

348
00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:43,080
We had trouble finding a location initially, so we kept moving around.

349
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:46,660
Which caused a lot of people to go, eh, I don't know where it's going to be this month.

350
00:25:46,660 --> 00:25:48,500
I don't want to bother tracking it down.

351
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,460
Finding the time to organize where it was going to be, what we were going to talk about.

352
00:25:54,340 --> 00:25:58,320
As well as updating the website so people knew that it was current.

353
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:05,980
And then we had a little bit of issue, too, where making friends with the different lugs, the different Unix groups.

354
00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:11,180
We actually have like a Unix user group, a bunch of Linux user groups, BSD group, the 2600.

355
00:26:11,180 --> 00:26:14,720
And letting them know that we weren't in competition with them.

356
00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:19,100
We weren't trying to pull people away from, oh, you can't hang out with them anymore because you're with us.

357
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:21,520
And that we were actually more of a supplemental group.

358
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:29,260
Where, hey, if you like what they talked about at the Seattle wireless meeting, but want to hang out with four or five guys, we can spend some time going more in depth with it.

359
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,380
And that's what we're here for.

360
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:38,820
And I think one of the biggest ways we overcame that was getting the mailing list set up, getting the website set up, advertising it.

361
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,900
So once people in their various lugs and things like that started seeing, oh, no, I went to that, it was cool.

362
00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:48,160
They realized, okay, the meetings exist, it's valid, you're not going to waste your Sunday.

363
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:53,140
Tracking down a location like you're trying to find a rave, you know, only to find nothing.

364
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:56,520
So that was one of the biggest problems we faced.

365
00:26:56,940 --> 00:27:01,100
So in Dallas, the biggest thing, of course, was getting the word out that it was going on.

366
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:04,700
We were really lucky and had an excellent location right off.

367
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:08,020
Unfortunately, it's fallen apart lately, but that's a whole different story.

368
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:17,380
But the other problem we had in the beginning was I was trying to give these guys too much control about what we did.

369
00:27:17,380 --> 00:27:20,940
You give too many people too many options and everybody goes nuts.

370
00:27:20,940 --> 00:27:25,040
So I finally ended up saying, no, this is the day we're meeting on, this is where we're going to meet.

371
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,500
Be there or don't, it's up to you.

372
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,380
Trying to give them, okay, so we want to meet on Wednesdays or Thursdays?

373
00:27:31,380 --> 00:27:33,940
We want to meet on this day, we want to meet here, we want to meet there.

374
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,420
It didn't work.

375
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:41,220
It was basically sitting down and just saying, okay, this is where we're going to meet, this is when we're going to meet.

376
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,120
This is who's presenting.

377
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:44,340
If you want to present, great.

378
00:27:44,340 --> 00:27:46,660
If not, at least show up.

379
00:27:47,380 --> 00:27:49,020
It's really worked really well.

380
00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:55,360
We have 100 people on our mailing list and we usually have between 30 and 40 people show up every month.

381
00:27:58,340 --> 00:27:59,780
I'll go back to it.

382
00:27:59,780 --> 00:28:11,540
Like I said earlier, Salt Lake City or DC801 was one of the pilot DC groups along with the Colorado Springs guys.

383
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:19,940
Russ called me up one day and said, hey, I just got off the phone with DT and we want to try doing this thing.

384
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,880
And we're going to do it in Colorado Springs and we want to know if Salt Lake's interested.

385
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,960
And we said, sure.

386
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,400
We didn't want to do it in a food court like 2600 is.

387
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:36,560
Like I said, we bounce around to different restaurants and things and we got laptops up on the tables and we get stuff done.

388
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,700
I agree as well.

389
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:41,800
Someone has to take ownership of it.

390
00:28:42,140 --> 00:28:49,480
Like the too many chiefs just doesn't work out because everybody wants to say, well, my schedule doesn't work with that.

391
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:50,620
This doesn't work with that.

392
00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:51,560
It's like, okay, well...

393
00:28:52,860 --> 00:29:00,300
So the impromptu meetings have worked really well for us, whether it be a couple weeks in advance or a couple hours.

394
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:04,400
And then whoever can be there can be there and we can fill in the other guys on the progress when they get there.

395
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:11,940
But somebody has to be able to say, okay, this is what we're doing and this is when we're meeting and where.

396
00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:14,340
And then round everybody else up.

397
00:29:14,340 --> 00:29:21,440
And a lot of us, through not only our local 2600 meeting, but through DC groups as well, have become really good friends.

398
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:23,300
And that's nice.

399
00:29:23,300 --> 00:29:27,400
I mean, you get to meet people who...

400
00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:31,580
Like generally, I don't like people, but...

401
00:29:32,180 --> 00:29:33,640
But yet you love gatherings.

402
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,620
Because I'm an asshole, but I like other assholes.

403
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,700
Or really smart people.

404
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:47,620
So it's nice to get a bunch of smart people together and know that, all right, these guys are intelligent, you can have an intelligent conversation.

405
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,260
So you're not just going to go to a barbecue and watch your friends set themselves on fire.

406
00:29:51,260 --> 00:29:53,560
Well, you might watch your friends set themselves on fire.

407
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:54,840
You haven't been to our meetings yet.

408
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,440
Yeah, but at the same time, you might get something coded too.

409
00:29:59,140 --> 00:30:01,800
For us, I think it was entirely attendance.

410
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,060
You know, venue was initially a little bit of a challenge, but not much.

411
00:30:05,060 --> 00:30:10,300
I think the biggest challenge we had initially was turning 5 people into 10, into 15.

412
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,760
And to be completely honest, it was almost all word of mouth with us.

413
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,140
I basically harassed everybody I knew who was in the community until they came.

414
00:30:19,140 --> 00:30:22,600
And I would call them relentlessly and say, dude, why aren't you at the meetings?

415
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,700
Please come out.

416
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:27,700
And once people would come out, they'd come out, they'd have a good time, they'd see a presentation.

417
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:28,920
I'd say, bring somebody else.

418
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,020
And eventually, that caught on.

419
00:30:31,020 --> 00:30:33,620
By the time we hit 20 people, we were 30 overnight.

420
00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:38,220
And it's been pretty consistent since as long as I send out reminder emails.

421
00:30:38,340 --> 00:30:41,140
So how many members was it until you hit critical mass?

422
00:30:41,420 --> 00:30:43,420
Until it started growing on its own?

423
00:30:43,420 --> 00:30:47,800
Because that's the problem we have with a lot of the groups is they can't get past that critical mass.

424
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,220
They don't know how to get there.

425
00:30:49,220 --> 00:30:52,720
Three or four meetings, we were probably only like five or six people.

426
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:57,020
And it was people that were, you know, mostly close friends of mine and folks that I knew.

427
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,000
And I'd say after the third or fourth meeting, we kind of did an email blast.

428
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,540
We , you know, sent some stuff out to everybody that had signed up at the website.

429
00:31:05,540 --> 00:31:08,260
We pretty much just kind of talked to everybody we knew.

430
00:31:08,260 --> 00:31:09,840
We said, hey, come out, come to a meeting.

431
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:15,760
I think we, that was one of the first times we had like multiple presenters was our fourth, fifth meeting.

432
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,480
And by that time, we had a few other people catch on.

433
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,040
And again, to be honest, I was really kind of an annoying prick to everybody.

434
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,560
I just wouldn't leave them alone until they came to the meetings.

435
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,460
I guess eventually they just wanted me to shut up, so they came.

436
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:36,360
Alright, so if you had one word to describe the personality of your DCG, what would it be?

437
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:37,160
Drunk.

438
00:31:38,660 --> 00:31:40,460
But it's fun!

439
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:43,960
Alcoholics.

440
00:31:44,060 --> 00:31:45,300
Alcoholics?

441
00:31:45,420 --> 00:31:46,810
All of the above.

442
00:31:47,340 --> 00:31:48,960
That's not one word.

443
00:31:49,420 --> 00:31:50,580
All.

444
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:52,200
Thirsty.

445
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,820
And I mean that in multiple regards.

446
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:55,940
Everybody's thirsty.

447
00:31:55,940 --> 00:31:58,400
We're at a tequila bar, but everybody's thirsty for knowledge, too.

448
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,760
Everybody wants something out of the meetings, and I think at least 60% of the time, they get it.

449
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:04,780
Right, right.

450
00:32:04,780 --> 00:32:06,500
And Grifter, yours is Mormon.

451
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:11,180
Actually, ours is pretty dedicated.

452
00:32:11,180 --> 00:32:13,880
We don't have a lot of people, but the people that show up are consistent.

453
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:14,960
They come every month.

454
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,600
Something we talked about last month, for example.

455
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,960
They'll come back and be, hey, we talked about that last month and left off on it.

456
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:22,860
Where were we?

457
00:32:22,860 --> 00:32:25,180
So they're pretty dedicated and persistent about it.

458
00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:25,820
Very cool.

459
00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:27,840
Grifter, what is your descriptive word?

460
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:29,580
I don't really have one.

461
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,980
I'm actually out of the...

462
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:33,060
What?

463
00:32:33,060 --> 00:32:33,620
Yes.

464
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:35,160
No.

465
00:32:38,340 --> 00:32:39,140
But the...

466
00:32:39,140 --> 00:32:42,180
Actually, I'm only one of, like, two Mormons out there.

467
00:32:42,180 --> 00:32:45,040
So there's two of us out of, like, the other group.

468
00:32:45,420 --> 00:32:46,900
We keep it gangsta.

469
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,460
Have any of you had any problems with law enforcement with the group?

470
00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:52,960
Other than mall security?

471
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:53,920
No.

472
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,800
I've actually been doing my best to bring out a lot of the local law enforcement.

473
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,640
We've got a pretty big IT security law enforcement community in Atlanta.

474
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,280
We've got, you know, the FBI, the GBI.

475
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,640
We've got high-tech crime units with a lot of the local federal state agencies.

476
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,860
And I've really been trying to encourage them to come partake in the process.

477
00:33:13,860 --> 00:33:19,900
To be honest, out of 30 people in our group, I can guarantee that 20 of them would be absolutely...

478
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,620
They would die to have, like, you know, a two-sided presentation.

479
00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:29,560
Have some, you know, local law enforcement come out and talk about the forensic process.

480
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:35,080
And, you know, maybe the same thing from somebody who's unwilling to give their name at the beginning or end of their presentation.

481
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:41,580
So I'm working really hard to kind of make sure that there's no discrimination, law enforcement or otherwise.

482
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,880
You know, we want hacker kids, we want security professionals, we want cops, we want feds.

483
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:52,700
Yeah, we've actually tried... I've been trying to get a couple of field agents to come down and talk about forensics.

484
00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:56,340
And, yeah, because we haven't had... But then again, we meet in an office.

485
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,760
One of our members owns a business, so we actually have our own...

486
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,020
We use their boardroom, which is sometimes a ping-pong table.

487
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:10,260
And, you know, so there's no interaction with law enforcement unless we're throwing things out the window, which doesn't happen.

488
00:34:10,260 --> 00:34:16,120
So, but yeah, I wouldn't mind having them come down and talk to us.

489
00:34:19,720 --> 00:34:20,600
Okay.

490
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:21,640
All right.

491
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,660
As far as I know, we haven't had any show up, but, you know, I don't ask for IDs.

492
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:29,200
Huh?

493
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:31,880
It would beat the feds.

494
00:34:31,980 --> 00:34:35,600
Yeah, I can either confirm or deny any accusations at this particular point in time.

495
00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:43,660
So, Chaos, when the feds come out and the law enforcement stuff, do you have any conflicts or any issues with the other attendees?

496
00:34:43,660 --> 00:34:45,200
I don't think so.

497
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,680
And I've asked on multiple occasions.

498
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:55,340
And to be honest, I honestly think that the significant majority of our group would really prefer that we do have some local law enforcement come out.

499
00:34:55,340 --> 00:35:02,080
Again, I think most of the people that come to our meetings are, if they're not in the InfoSec community, they'd like to be.

500
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:08,240
You know, they're really trying to get into security, you know, from one angle or another.

501
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:11,420
But the bottom line is, I think everybody would like that involvement.

502
00:35:11,420 --> 00:35:14,240
They'd like that perspective in the meetings as well, you know.

503
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,760
We talk about security as much as insecurity, if not more.

504
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,960
But , you know, there's no real... there's no difference between the two, so...

505
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,000
What did you say?

506
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,020
I said, because it's sexy.

507
00:35:26,140 --> 00:35:28,880
Information security is so sexy.

508
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:31,400
Grifter, that's just you, buddy.

509
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:32,740
No, but, thanks.

510
00:35:32,740 --> 00:35:51,220
I honestly believe that, I know, I haven't like taken a poll of the members or anything, but I honestly believe there would be a lot less discussion if there was an openly fed at the meetings, you know.

511
00:35:51,220 --> 00:35:54,460
There would be a lot less discussion about some of the things we talk about.

512
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,080
Whereas I'd be happy to see a little bit of it.

513
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:02,980
Partially because I'd like to see the group exposed, both sides being exposed to one another.

514
00:36:03,180 --> 00:36:16,920
Because where a lot of the problems with law enforcement seem to stem from is, all of a sudden, whatever agency, or state, local, federal, whatever, suddenly says, oh my god, there's this hacker group that just popped up on radar in our backyard.

515
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:17,700
Who are these guys?

516
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:18,300
What are they doing?

517
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:19,460
We need to get in there.

518
00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:24,340
Whereas if we invite them down, that's an easy way of saying, look, we're not up to anything.

519
00:36:24,460 --> 00:36:26,160
You're welcome to come hang out at the meetings.

520
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:32,720
See, look, real live hackers, they're not scary, they're not plotting violent overthrow of the government.

521
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:41,160
And on top of that, it also shows some of the guys that show up that, see, law enforcement, they put their pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.

522
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,900
In fact, last time I talked to an FBI agent, we sat around commiserating about our bosses.

523
00:36:47,340 --> 00:36:51,620
The only difference is when he gets into work in the morning, he puts his badge and his gun in his desk.

524
00:36:52,140 --> 00:36:53,800
And I don't.

525
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,220
So kind of the same lifestyles.

526
00:36:57,180 --> 00:36:58,120
Don't get me wrong.

527
00:36:58,120 --> 00:36:59,900
I mean, I think it would be really interesting.

528
00:37:00,020 --> 00:37:11,860
I just, I feel that a lot of the discussion we do have would be, we either wouldn't have the same discussions or the discussions wouldn't be as complete as they are now.

529
00:37:11,860 --> 00:37:14,360
I wouldn't recommend it every meeting, you know.

530
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:18,940
I mean, I think the bottom line is, hey, what would this conference be if we didn't have Feds here?

531
00:37:18,940 --> 00:37:19,440
You know what I mean?

532
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,280
It does something to the energy and the atmosphere and I think it also encourages...

533
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,240
But we play spot the Fed because they're not out in the open.

534
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:33,320
Inviting them in and saying, hey, here's your local Fed, let's talk about all this stuff, it's a completely different atmosphere.

535
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,740
We play spot the Fed because they don't want us to know they're here.

536
00:37:36,740 --> 00:37:40,500
Yes, we know because we're not stupid, but they're too stupid to realize that.

537
00:37:43,660 --> 00:37:44,840
Yes, ma'am.

538
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:48,280
Me?

539
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,220
Oh, no, no, I completely understand that.

540
00:38:06,220 --> 00:38:09,600
And like I said, it would be very interesting to have them there.

541
00:38:09,940 --> 00:38:19,860
Okay, so what she said was that it would be good if a Fed came and presented and then have basically a counter-argument presented, working like the opposite...

542
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,500
Did I understand that correctly?

543
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:38,160
Right, so what she's saying is, you know, you have a Fed come in, do a presentation, and then the next meeting, you discuss in the meeting, you know, what was talked about.

544
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,700
So that it's less pressure on those people.

545
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:48,800
And I agree, on a one-off basis, I think it would be great to have, you know, somebody from law enforcement come in, do a presentation.

546
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:58,600
But if they're there and they're out all the time, the overall discussion, meeting to meeting, I think would be a lot different than what it is now.

547
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,480
And I think that would hinder a lot of the discussions that we have.

548
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:07,140
Don't get me wrong, I think it would be really cool, just not on a regular basis, not like every single month.

549
00:39:07,140 --> 00:39:10,880
Yeah, no, on a regular basis, you know, because, I mean, it's kind of getting scary.

550
00:39:11,020 --> 00:39:16,160
You know, things like the DMCA, Patriot Act, or Patriot 2 now, you know.

551
00:39:16,260 --> 00:39:18,780
The whole reverse engineering thing with the...

552
00:39:18,780 --> 00:39:25,080
Yeah , exactly, the fact that things that really, frankly, shouldn't be illegal, have become, such as reverse engineering.

553
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:33,340
Yeah, I could see it stifling innovation a little bit, where it's like, okay, this guy's friendly enough, but do I really want to show him how I hacked the firmware on this particular piece of software?

554
00:39:33,340 --> 00:39:35,760
Because he might just turn around and bring a hammer down on me.

555
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:44,060
You know, so, yeah, I definitely wouldn't recommend having them on a regular basis, but it's always good to have them come in, maybe for a one-off type thing.

556
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,320
Because it's interesting to see, you know, what are they doing?

557
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,420
You know, we'll show them what we're doing, if they'll show us what they're doing.

558
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,540
And, you know, like I said, I have 30, 40 people show up every month.

559
00:39:53,540 --> 00:39:56,340
I don't know if any one of them is a Fed or not.

560
00:39:57,380 --> 00:40:04,080
My group makes fun of me, because I do a standard disclaimer at the beginning of every meeting, saying, everything we're talking about is hypothetical.

561
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,680
Everything we're showing here are things that we do on our own networks.

562
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,860
This is not anything where we're not taking out anyone else, we're not doing anything illegal.

563
00:40:10,860 --> 00:40:13,020
All of this is just for our own entertainment.

564
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,340
And I say that, you know, and everybody makes fun of me, but it's like, you know, I don't know who these people are.

565
00:40:18,380 --> 00:40:21,480
I mean, I don't ask for IDs, I don't ask where they work.

566
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,320
Some of them I know, some of them I don't.

567
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,080
So, you know, it's...

568
00:40:26,060 --> 00:40:35,320
Okay, well, this leads us into a fairly good discussion of, we're not just a US-based organization anymore.

569
00:40:35,540 --> 00:40:41,200
I mean, like Noit said, we've got... how many outside of the country do we have, Michelle?

570
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:47,900
Like 15, 20 groups all over the world, including Iran and Saudi Arabia.

571
00:40:48,220 --> 00:40:55,060
I mean, to hold groups there, you know, you're under a lot of pressure and a lot of legal and political pressure.

572
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,000
Do you guys ever consider yourselves lucky?

573
00:40:58,020 --> 00:41:00,480
Does your group ever talk about things like that?

574
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,380
And do you utilize that freedom?

575
00:41:02,380 --> 00:41:05,540
Ours does, and we do consider ourselves lucky.

576
00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:14,620
In fact, I correspond with a guy in Tehran from time to time, just because I'm sort of fascinated with the, you know, wow, what's it like running a hacker meeting in Tehran?

577
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:20,160
I mean, this is a place that's, you know, we complain about things getting repressive here.

578
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:29,880
There are a hundred times further down the road than we are at the moment, you know, where, I mean, being a hacker in Iran can still get you executed.

579
00:41:30,020 --> 00:41:33,080
So it's kind of got a different edge to it, you know?

580
00:41:33,420 --> 00:41:38,500
And, you know, I like interacting with the... I talk to the Malaysia guys all the time.

581
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:45,920
And it's interesting to see the different backgrounds, because, like, for example, a lot of these places that are hosting these meetings aren't first world countries.

582
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:54,800
So it's interesting to see these guys have to do some sort of real, real hardcore hacking when they're working on projects, because these dudes got to hustle.

583
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,260
They don't just whip out the credit card and buy the parts kit.

584
00:41:57,540 --> 00:42:08,040
They got to go dig through the junkyard and find the old abandoned APC to get the big piece of metal off that they wanted and, you know, happen to stumble across the satellite receiver while they're at it and, you know.

585
00:42:08,220 --> 00:42:15,480
So it's actually kind of almost more hardcore, because these guys have really got to hustle to get their projects together.

586
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,300
They don't have a radio shack on the corner they can go down to and get gear at or fries.

587
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,380
So , you know, I think we're pretty lucky.

588
00:42:22,380 --> 00:42:29,560
Well, I'd say, you know, everybody sitting in this room is lucky, because they get to come to DEF CON, the actual conference.

589
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:40,600
There are emails that come across the different DEF CON lists that are always like, you know, when is DEF CON coming to Australia?

590
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,620
When is DEF CON coming to Singapore?

591
00:42:42,620 --> 00:42:45,040
When is DEF CON coming here, there or the other place?

592
00:42:45,540 --> 00:42:48,560
DEF CON is in Las Vegas and you're all here in Las Vegas.

593
00:42:48,740 --> 00:42:52,140
So these guys connect to DEF CON through these groups.

594
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:59,760
And it's like if DEF CON can bring a little bit of that to them, then, I mean, we're not doing too bad.

595
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:01,900
Anything else, guys?

596
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:03,340
I'll be honest.

597
00:43:03,340 --> 00:43:05,460
I think we probably take it for granted most of the time.

598
00:43:05,460 --> 00:43:06,860
And I think you've got some excellent points.

599
00:43:06,860 --> 00:43:10,300
You know, I think it's something we all have to consider, like you said.

600
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,260
We're lucky to be here and be able to do this.

601
00:43:12,260 --> 00:43:21,040
And I think, you know, one of the things that I would like to see, especially from our own local group, from the Atlanta group, is more interaction with the other D.C.

602
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:21,760
groups.

603
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,360
Not just in the U.S., but worldwide.

604
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,540
I think there's probably a lot that we could do and organize by working with one another.

605
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,260
What that is, I don't really have any idea.

606
00:43:31,260 --> 00:43:32,740
But it seems like there'd be a lot.

607
00:43:32,740 --> 00:43:36,200
So I'd like to see some of that communication between D.C.

608
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,400
groups because I think we would all benefit from it.

609
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,180
And, you know, then regardless of whether we're the D.C.

610
00:43:41,180 --> 00:43:55,260
group that's got five regular members or 30 regular members, everybody would feel like they're part of a bigger regular meeting when you're interacting with, you know, the 303 group and the 206 group, you know, on a regular basis.

611
00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:56,420
Right.

612
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:57,140
All right.

613
00:43:57,140 --> 00:43:59,680
Are there any other questions out from the audience yet?

614
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:00,740
All right.

615
00:44:00,740 --> 00:44:04,200
So what's the most impressive thing you've ever learned at one of your meetings?

616
00:44:11,230 --> 00:44:13,030
Corfidio is great tequila.

617
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:19,960
Wow.

618
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,660
That my friends are smarter than I am.

619
00:44:24,940 --> 00:44:26,820
You know, that's pretty impressive.

620
00:44:26,820 --> 00:44:28,560
That I have friends.

621
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:44,300
Actually, I think one of the most impressive things I've learned is, I think one of the most impressive things I've learned is we have a guy who, Crash, who is constantly messing with the WRT54G Linksys wireless router firmware.

622
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:50,960
And I've seen that guy just do some pretty amazing stuff where first he was building nodes.

623
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,180
Now he's got them, like, meshed.

624
00:44:53,180 --> 00:44:56,020
So that's pretty impressive because I don't do a lot of firmware stuff.

625
00:44:56,020 --> 00:44:58,020
So I'm kind of fascinated by that.

626
00:44:58,020 --> 00:44:59,000
Very cool.

627
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:05,600
You know, I say in jest that, you know, the most interesting thing I learned was that my friends are smarter than I am.

628
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,340
But I honestly mean that.

629
00:45:07,980 --> 00:45:19,980
I think that, I don't know, it's just kind of nice to know that there are people out there who are brilliant, who will sit down and listen to one another and, you know, get some things done.

630
00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:31,420
So , I mean, that's the most interesting thing to me, is that people will come together and just throw out an idea and can make that happen.

631
00:45:31,420 --> 00:45:36,200
That their brains are capable of just taking somebody's whim and making it a reality.

632
00:45:36,380 --> 00:45:47,700
Yeah, likewise, I think the most impressive thing I've learned is that there are 29 other people who want to come out once a month and talk about security and watch presentations and talk about hacking links as routers.

633
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:50,280
That's kind of cool to me.

634
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:51,180
Very cool.

635
00:45:51,220 --> 00:45:53,340
Well, thanks for coming to the talk.

636
00:45:53,380 --> 00:45:56,520
These guys will be around for the rest of the weekend.

637
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:57,860
Thanks for your questions.

638
00:45:57,860 --> 00:45:59,780
I've got two books to give away.

639
00:46:01,420 --> 00:46:14,820
Also, I've got two copies of Aggressive Network Self-Defense, a book that, again, my friends are smarter than I am, put together a group of friends that we all put together this book on strikeback technology.

640
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,460
Some of us will be signing it right after this at the Breakpoint Books table.

641
00:46:20,740 --> 00:46:26,160
Johnny Long, who's standing over here about to come up on stage, will be over there shortly after his talk to do it.

642
00:46:27,220 --> 00:46:29,500
I don't know how I want to give these away.

643
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:32,540
Does someone have a weird accent?

644
00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:38,480
Yeah, I guess we can give it to this guy here who's as cool as his hat is.

645
00:46:39,140 --> 00:46:40,700
That's the best hat, man.

646
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:59,440
Thanks, man.

647
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:00,640
See you later.

648
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:01,480
Thanks a lot.