start	end	text
2750	10470	I'm God-Minus-One. I'm the point of contact and organizer for the DC groups in Baltimore, Maryland.
11290	17830	I'm Mad Hat from Dallas. I'm on the DC-214 group, and I want to say that I think we're the first official group to have a scene whore.
20690	27010	I'm Grifter. I organize the DC-801 group out of Salt Lake City.
27830	31850	And I'm Dr. Chaos. I organize the DC-404 group out of Atlanta.
33230	40370	So these are five of the best groups we've got, and I think at last count we were at like 88 or something like that.
40370	54350	Yeah, 88, and we have DEFCON groups as far away as Tehran, Iran, Ankara, Turkey, Penang, Malaysia, and Tokyo, and I think we just got one in Brisbane, Australia.
54990	57310	So we've got them all over the world.
59350	62130	Oh, and Saudi Arabia. We got one in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
62750	67850	Yeah, if you've got a DEFCON group in Iran, you know you're pretty good, right?
69210	75830	Alright, so I'm going to start with Noid. What goals did you have in mind when you wanted to start a DEFCON group?
75830	79210	When you started this, what was it that you were trying to accomplish?
79390	83110	Well, I think initially for me on a personal level, it was to alleviate boredom.
83630	92730	I used to run the Los Angeles 2600 group, and then after I moved to Washington, I sort of fell out of things for a bit and found myself with a lot of free time on my hands.
92750	110650	And I'd been to some of the different meetings, some of the LUGs, some of the Unix user groups, the local 2600, and decided that, you know, we should do a DC206, keep it small, and just strictly focus not on talking about tech, but focus specifically on doing things.
110790	116370	Because, as we all know, if you get more than four or five hackers involved in a project, nothing gets done.
116510	121130	So if we keep the group really small, we could pick a project each month and build stuff.
121130	124470	And that was the plan, was to actually build functional equipment.
125010	127670	Which we've been somewhat successful at.
128090	134950	Alright, this one goes out to all the groups. What kind of projects, cool projects, has your group worked on so far?
135190	137530	So what are some of the coolest ones you've seen?
138270	141390	Well, we built a GPS jammer.
142830	149510	We actually have a radio and TV jammer we're building, provided the guy here with the kit finds me at some point during the convention.
151050	153550	What else? We built something else that was really cool.
154310	157690	We reverse-engineered an IDS appliance we'd come across.
158090	164870	Found out that the processor was actually designed to support keyboard and video out.
165730	176590	They just hadn't put the stuff in, so we had to sit down and do some micro-drilling and were able to turn the thing into a fully functional computer that's this big and can get mounted so we have a portable hotspot.
176910	178190	Oh, that's cool.
178190	179830	Anyone else?
180650	187830	We set up Silk Network that a lot of people have been using. It's like IRC, but actually secure.
188330	200130	Lots of different projects. The spa thing that we presented on at Black Hat and mentioned here was all based on discussions we had there.
200830	202030	Okay.
202050	204650	We bring content to DEF CON.
207190	214710	We haven't been very project-based in Atlanta yet. We've talked a lot about projects, but we've been kind of more thematically oriented.
214710	221090	We do presentations. We have folks come talk about pertinent security topics, pertinent hacking topics.
222030	232070	Of course, we do our meetings at a tequila bar, so unless we get a consensus really early on, we don't really know what projects are going to come about the next meeting.
232070	236030	But we've had discussion around projects, building components, building devices.
236350	247650	We've talked about modifying wireless devices, and we've gone into detail on the process of doing so, but we haven't actually done any projects as part of the meetings yet.
248090	248670	Right.
251650	259530	DC410, it started out as a close group of friends. It started growing larger and larger. We do presentations every week.
259530	271990	We started organizing a CTF, and basically from the ground up, we're starting with basic tools and going all the way up, teaching everyone how to use it, showing them how to use it, which has really been cool.
271990	281830	We have speakers. Chris Hurley comes a lot, a couple times. Jack Holleran's been there. So we get some people that know their stuff coming and doing talks.
282270	286850	So who are some of the cooler speakers that you guys have had there? Have you had any speakers at yours?
286930	298770	We have talks every meeting, so we meet once a month at a bar, and we're lucky to have SimpleNomad, so anytime we're searching for something, SimpleNomad normally steps up and says, I'll do a talk.
298770	308070	But we've also had some great other talks by other people like from CAU and other people from NMRC, so we've been really lucky to have some of the people in the Dallas area.
309170	321450	Very cool. Are there any questions out here yet? None? Alright. Where would you like to see your group, technically, in a year? What are your goals for the future for your group?
321450	330190	I personally, for the DC206, we're one of the groups that isn't doing focused talks with some guest speakers, and that's something I'd like to see a little bit more of.
330670	340190	Because particularly up in the Seattle area, we've got some really bright people like the GhettoHackers, and then some other people that just don't really pop up on radar, and some folks down in Portland.
340450	347510	I know we've got a guy who wants to come up and talk about Asterix, and we have another friend of ours who worked for SourceForge.
347510	355390	He knows Snort inside and out, so we want to have him come up and talk about it.
355770	367890	It just seems that logistics have been a problem for us. The Snort guy's got cancer, so he's getting chemo right now, and the Portland guy's availability is scattered because he's all over the place.
367890	378870	But a year from now, I'd like to see us having each meeting with a focused speaker at the beginning, and then a technical portion at the end of the meeting where we can apply what we've been taught.
378870	387330	Like if the Snort guy comes in and talks for an hour, we can then sit down with some Snort boxes and practice writing filters and things like that, making our own signatures.
387790	393710	Because we've got a pretty wide group of people that show up. We've got some people that work in the industry.
393710	397770	We've got some people that are just not in the industry, but really smart technical people.
397770	403170	And we've got a lot of people that show up that just want to learn new stuff, so it's a chance for all of us to pick up something new.
403610	405590	Very cool. Guys?
407490	412890	The one thing I would like to do is expand a little more, maybe get some more people with deeper knowledge.
414230	423530	One of the things, we hold our meeting at a college campus, which is great because we have computers for everyone to use, we have projectors, what not.
424110	434730	The college actually buys our pizza for our meetings, figuring that the professor that works there is getting all this knowledge by going to this group.
434730	439650	So I'll throw in $40 to feed these guys, hoping that he's going to get more knowledge every month.
439650	452150	So basically, the only downside with that is the fact that they advertise it there and we get people that show up once in a while and have absolutely no interest in computers whatsoever.
452410	454970	Kind of like the scene whore he was talking about earlier.
455090	456570	They just want the pizza?
456570	457670	Pretty much.
458430	463890	She, in theory, has interest in computers. That's just the secondary interest.
463970	465390	Vibrators don't count.
467310	472190	I'd like to see DC214 get some more organized projects for the entire group.
472550	482470	Spa was cool, but it was more of... we had several discussions about it, and then Nomad and I actually did a lot of the work on it, as well as Druid helping out.
482510	487130	But I'd like to see us... in the front row, I've got seven of my guys right here.
488090	493530	But we're not really... unfortunately, we haven't really done anything with any of the contests that are going on.
493530	497970	But I'd love to see us get involved in the contest so that next year we have one or two projects in there.
499410	506490	Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same boat. I think it'd be nice to get a little bit more direction as far as projects go.
507710	511930	Also, nailing down a specific location where we'll meet.
512470	517510	Currently, we'll just meet whenever we can. We'll get the most people together.
517510	527470	We have an IRC channel that everybody pretty much idles in, and when the topic changes to DC801 meeting here, it's like sending up the bat signal and everybody comes running to wherever.
529610	539070	We spend a lot of time at IHOP at midnight, one in the morning, with printouts of all different things and a pen, running over papers and stuff.
539070	543790	And then the next time we'll meet, we'll meet at somebody's house and have a bunch of food.
544670	548230	We'll work on little DEF CON projects that we're working on.
549470	559330	We do the DEF CON movie channel, so we'll have all the filler running on the TV in the background so we can watch it and see what's jacked and what's not.
561450	566930	Just start to put things together, the things that we've worked on, those nights eating pancakes.
568430	576330	But basically I think that's the direction on projects and being able to focus on something and then release that to the community.
577090	580550	Getting people to be able to get together all at once.
580790	589390	I'm sure those of you in DC groups know how hard it is to have everyone who is working on a project be able to get together at the same time.
589450	592390	We have jobs, lives, wives, whatever.
593590	602810	So I think just more focus and you can never have too much organization as far as getting your projects out there.
603470	607390	Yeah, I'd have to echo Alana the same regarding organization.
607390	609170	I've actually been really proud of our group.
609170	616290	We have really good attendance and we've got a really good body of knowledge between all the folks who come to the meetings.
616290	621670	We've probably got an average of 25 to 35 people who come to the meetings each month.
622390	629710	Lately we've had kind of a waning attendance because I've been a little bit slack on sending out meeting notices and meeting updates.
629710	635730	But overall we probably have a core of 15 who are guaranteed not going to miss a meeting.
635730	638790	And then we've got another 15 who generally always show up.
638950	643110	We've got a lot of smart people in the community in Atlanta.
643110	645310	It's truly an IT hub there.
645310	648810	So echoing what Noid said, we've got a lot of security professionals.
648810	650090	We've got a lot of tech geeks.
650090	654110	We've got a lot of aspiring security professionals and aspiring hackers.
654110	657430	And that's been very good because everybody's hungry for knowledge.
657430	660990	Everybody's got ideas about what they want to talk about and what they want to do.
661050	667570	And I think really my goal would be to kind of just funnel that energy and follow in the same path that we've gone so far.
667570	673930	I think we've seen a lot of good growth and development across the past year plus that we've been holding meetings.
674090	676050	We're very lucky with our venue.
676130	678670	The exception being that we're about to run out of space.
679470	684190	I kind of kid... I'm not kidding in that we actually have our meetings at a tequila bar,
684190	687250	but they're closed on the one day during the month when we're doing our meetings.
687250	689410	So we have complete run of the place.
689410	690890	We've got ceiling-mounted projectors.
690890	692030	We've got free Wi-Fi.
692030	696830	And of course we have a bar for everybody to imbibe while they're there.
696830	698290	So we generally have a good time.
698290	702470	We've got the age range and our attendees varies from...
702470	704950	I think the youngest attendee we've got is 15.
705330	707970	The oldest probably being 45.
708670	711090	So pretty much across the spectrum.
711090	713370	And again, people come from everywhere.
713710	715770	I would like to increase attendance.
715770	721570	Of course the problem with that is that we're going to hit the walls on how many people we can contain in our existing venue.
721570	728310	And we're going to have to find somewhere else that's as friendly and as hospitable with a big group of drunken hackers.
728450	730910	So do you see a big desire?
730910	733830	Do you see a lot of people looking for something like this?
733830	737550	I do. I guess to go back a step,
737550	741370	one of the things that I would like to see more is a lot of the folks in our group,
741370	746030	I think they're very smart, they've got great ideas, but they have a lot of hesitation to speaking.
746250	748470	They don't want to get up and do the presentations.
748670	754390	We've got a guy in the group who could probably do things with a wireless access point,
755030	758510	modifications to a WRT-54G that I couldn't dream of.
758510	759890	But he doesn't want to talk about it.
759890	765770	He'd rather write a presentation and give it for somebody else to get up and talk about the project.
765770	769090	So I'd like to see the people in our group becoming more participatory.
769090	772230	I mean, I think people do, they are looking for it.
772230	778030	They're looking for this opportunity to come and geek out with everybody else and talk security, talk shop, talk tech.
778710	782970	I'm hoping that more folks will get up and kind of take part in the presentation process.
782970	786730	We've probably had five different speakers across the past year,
786730	790690	but it's a lot of the same people coming back up and doing presentations.
790730	791430	Right, right.
791430	795190	Just out of curiosity, how many out of the five groups here have that problem?
796090	798090	Absolutely. We do.
798610	805810	We will have someone, like one of our guys, oh, I'm going to write a presentation on this.
805810	809770	I'm like, great. Call him up. Oh, yeah, I'm on my way there. I'm on my way there.
809850	811550	Never showed up and did the presentation.
812570	818350	And you know, a lot of people, we have people there that are, oh, I'm a government contractor, I'm doing this, blah, blah, blah.
818350	822170	I'm talking about all this cool shit that they're doing.
822170	828910	And then by the time, you're like, you know, why don't you step forward and do a presentation and benefit your knowledge of the rest of us?
829270	835970	So it's really, it's the only really problem that my group is having right now is to get the others motivated.
836790	847150	I think part of the thing that I've seen the difference between our DC meeting and our 2600 group is when we meet for 2600 and we give presentations,
847150	852210	somebody stands up in front of the whole group and they just talk to everybody.
852210	862030	They present like they were presenting, you know, in a small forum where with the DC groups, it's a little, I know I just got done ranting on organized,
862030	871150	but it's a little more organized in the fact of like, I don't know, that they can feel comfortable that they're not going to be ridiculed.
871150	874970	They're not, it's more of an informal setting.
874970	883150	So like I said, if somebody's house or at IHOP or whatever like that, it's easier to talk around a table while you're eating, you know, breakfast with friends
883850	886470	than it is to get up and rant to an entire group of people.
886470	897450	So, I don't know, some of those guys who can't talk in front of the big groups can sit there and talk, you know, over, you know, eggs or something like that.
897450	902110	Or I'm sure once they get shit-faced, they're willing to talk about whatever it is that they're talking.
902110	912630	You actually bring up a good point. We've heard the question over and over. Can you run a DCG in a 2600? Is there a huge difference and what is it? Does it matter?
913150	918470	I mean, what are your issues with running both? Because several of these people run both at the same time, right?
920290	926610	We try to work really hard to bring the folks from the local 2600 chapter to our meetings.
926610	934090	I think there's a significantly different focus and it's probably almost the direct contrast of what Grifter said.
934090	942310	At least in Atlanta, the 2600 group, it's very informal. It's held at a food court in the local mall. There's no real presentations.
942310	948490	It's not always topically oriented, so it's more of just a get-together, hangout, talk about whatever's on everybody's minds.
948490	955510	Whereas with DC groups, we've tried to really focus on kind of keeping what brings everybody to Vegas every year for Black Hat,
955510	966630	which is, hey, we've got 30 people who come to a meeting, 25 of them would love to see a topic on the latest attacks on EAP, the latest attacks on WPA.
966630	975610	Just tools for improving or for attacking common hardware, common software.
975610	981570	So by keeping kind of the presentation focused, I think we've brought a really big group to the meetings.
981570	986270	And I think we've got a lot of camaraderie with the folks that are doing 2600 meetings in Atlanta.
986270	992110	In fact, the folks that pseudo-organize the 2600 meetings commonly show up at our meetings.
992110	996490	I can't say that I'm always at the 2600 meetings, but it's more of a scheduling issue for me.
996870	998670	Okay, you got a question?
1011560	1013000	Then you're lucky.
1016040	1023200	He said every 2600 meeting he's been to in San Francisco sounds identical to what we're describing in the DC groups.
1023200	1032520	And my comment was, then he's lucky. I've only been to a couple of 2600 meetings in Dallas, and I have nothing positive to say, so I'm not going to say anything.
1035420	1036720	There's a guy in the back.
1036720	1039000	I hear comments. Who's got...
1042700	1043860	It's Humperdinck.
1044460	1048880	I have to agree. I think if you've got a well-organized 2600 chapter, that's awesome.
1048880	1053960	And I think that's been kind of one of the goals with a lot of the DC groups has been to kind of fill a gap.
1054220	1061500	You know, the 2600 meetings, I think, in general, like I said, I speak only for Atlanta, but they tend to be more of just a social gathering.
1065760	1066300	Agreed?
1066300	1071440	You know, there's a difference. At least there's an apparent difference in Salt Lake City.
1071440	1082360	And that's at the 2600 meetings, there are a lot more people who are beginners, who are new to it, and they... what's that?
1083280	1086700	Right. That's right. As there should be. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be.
1086700	1094480	There's some younger individuals. It's a little less mature of a setting where we have the stand-up-and-talk thing.
1094480	1099160	It's because if you don't, they'll see something shiny, and they'll go running off into a wall.
1099800	1101220	Where... yeah.
1102840	1108280	Where the DC groups that we have tend to be the guys that know stuff.
1108280	1111780	And they come, and they want to work on projects, and they are project-oriented.
1111780	1117140	They can sit down, and I mean, that's one of the best things that's come out of these groups.
1118000	1123120	For us, it's like, I'm an idiot. I don't know everything.
1123180	1131320	So, if I don't know something, but I get a great idea, I can turn to a group of guys and say, hey, make the magic happen.
1131500	1134640	And they're like, alright, well, what are we going to do?
1134680	1139580	And we sit down, hash it out, and then, boom, there's a new tool or something.
1139580	1141960	And that's awesome, but that's the thing.
1141960	1149000	At a 2600 meeting, we don't have that... we just haven't seen that project-oriented attitude.
1149180	1153260	It's a little bite-sized information, and then they go.
1153260	1160180	Where, with the DC groups, it's more of long-term projects, where people work on something for 6, 8, 10 months.
1161040	1165400	So, I don't know. That's just how it is in Utah. I don't know about San Francisco.
1165400	1173240	One of the things about Seattle I like is the fact that it's not a difference in focus, per se, between the Seattle 2600 and the DC-206.
1173320	1175360	It's just a difference in size.
1175740	1183020	We find that, since our group is smaller, it's easier to actually get projects done, because people have tasks and there's not a lot of chatter.
1183620	1186880	The signal, the noise, kind of dials in a little bit more.
1187400	1194340	Because, mostly, I'd say 99% of the people at the DC-206 are regular attendees of the Seattle 2600.
1195840	1196360	So...
1200640	1202000	Yeah, yes.
1202840	1206260	Well, no, okay. Yes and no.
1206280	1212080	The DCGs have a very primary goal of continuing to learn about technology.
1212580	1216320	I mean, we don't give a damn about politics, right? We don't talk about it.
1216320	1222140	We're there to talk protocols and servers, applications, vulnerabilities, whatever else.
1224940	1231520	Well, and that's fine. He said, everybody's different and everybody's got their own ideas. I totally agree with that.
1231520	1235940	The forum for DCGs is, we're focusing it on technology.
1237620	1239160	Not every 2600, though.
1239160	1240520	For us, we were just trying to...
1240520	1242360	Have you read the magazine lately?
1242360	1244100	We were just trying to fill a gap.
1244100	1245220	Have you ever read, you know...
1245220	1248740	You may have a very special 2600. Congratulations.
1248740	1252120	We don't have 30 people who come to the local 2600 meetings.
1252140	1258480	So what we were looking for was building camaraderie amongst a group of people who didn't come out to the 2600 meetings.
1258480	1263680	A lot of the folks that are in the professional security community in Atlanta wouldn't go hang out at the food court at the mall.
1263680	1269780	So there was no participation from people that have professional experience out doing penetration testing.
1269780	1272560	Or, you know, doing product reviews with security products.
1272560	1275420	What we were looking for was building that camaraderie.
1275420	1280340	Bringing together the same kids and the same folks that go to 2600 meetings.
1280340	1285920	But with the suits that want to come out and hang out and see a presentation or do a presentation.
1286440	1289080	And focus more on some of the how-to's.
1289080	1294140	The understanding behind the scenes that you don't get at the food court or the mall in a lot of the 2600 meetings.
1294260	1297320	Not every place has a 2600 meeting, too.
1297940	1299340	So, it is unfortunate.
1299340	1300480	Well, it depends.
1300580	1304920	If you've been to some of the 2600 meetings I've been to, I'd rather not have one.
1305180	1306900	I mean, quite honestly.
1307180	1309560	Alright? So that's the goal.
1309560	1312940	This poor guy in the back has had his arm up to the point where it's going to fall off.
1312960	1315880	You're going to have to yell, though, because I'm way up here.
1321040	1322060	Scavenger hunt.
1322920	1324120	Gritcher, I hate you.
1324120	1326160	Okay, kids. Stay in school.
1326500	1328000	It's a good thing you made him wait.
1328560	1329520	Actually, yes.
1329520	1332920	I don't remember how many points that's worth. Sorry, guys.
1371760	1375240	Yeah, we're not saying that you don't have a great group.
1375240	1381500	What we're saying is we have had such experiences that we're not getting what we need to out of that.
1381500	1383540	And that's why we created the DCGs.
1383540	1386680	I mean, some of the 2600 groups are really dialed in.
1386720	1389340	Like, the LA 2600 is tight.
1389960	1393560	San Francisco, in fact, there's actually a lot of crossover between the two.
1393780	1395920	Kind of, you know, we made flyers.
1395920	1397720	They said, oh, we should make flyers, too.
1397720	1399900	And, you know, setting mailing lists up and stuff.
1399900	1401240	And there's a lot of crossover there.
1401240	1405220	But there are some places that have 2600 meetings and DEF CON meetings.
1405240	1405980	That suck.
1406480	1408360	So this is an attempt to...
1409280	1412260	Every once in a while, I've been to a couple of places where there's a 2600 group.
1412520	1416740	But nobody goes to it anymore because it's run by four or five guys that have known each other since high school.
1417380	1419400	And it's kind of a click and nobody's really welcome at it.
1419400	1421560	So they say, you know, we'll just go start our own thing.
1421560	1423480	And this is their own thing they can start.
1423620	1426500	Or vice versa. They could say, you know, our local DEF CON group sucks.
1426500	1427980	We're going to start a 2600 meeting.
1428260	1431820	For us, to be honest, it wasn't really... it's not a matter of competition.
1431820	1434120	We just wanted to do something that wasn't being done in Atlanta.
1434120	1437080	And I think we've achieved that with the DC group.
1439500	1444120	All right. You know what? You got good points. Let's have that discussion offline.
1444120	1445040	That's a beer conversation.
1445040	1447040	We should give him a microphone.
1447480	1448260	Yeah.
1459700	1462120	What are the hardest things they had to deal with?
1462300	1465360	Probably find a suitable meeting location.
1465480	1468160	Our first two meetings were at a mall food court.
1468160	1474500	And, you know, no presenters come, but there's no, you know, projectors or anything.
1474500	1476500	It's loud. You can't hear it.
1476500	1480480	Security walked around us about four or five times asking us what the hell we were doing there.
1480660	1484420	So now we got our meeting location at the local college.
1484420	1487140	And, you know, we have pretty much everything we need to.
1487140	1488780	The whole school is closed.
1488780	1491480	We normally have them Saturday nights.
1491600	1493540	School's closed. You know, people...
1493540	1495480	Highways drives down from Philadelphia.
1495480	1497300	We have people coming from out of state.
1497300	1501020	We got a couple of guys that drive two, three hours to come to the meetings.
1501700	1503480	We have computers for everybody.
1503480	1510040	We have, you know, a segmented network that we can do everything we want to with removable hard drives.
1513320	1514900	The possibilities are...
1514900	1519260	That would be the place that I would recommend if there's one in your area, like a local community college or whatever.
1519260	1520340	Try and get in there.
1520340	1524760	And they'll frequently let you have the rooms for free or for a small donation.
1524760	1527840	Or sometimes the person who reserves the room needs to be a student.
1528300	1535340	But at the same time, you know, it's not terribly hard to find computer science students at the local university that want to hang out with like-minded people.
1536220	1539900	Some of the biggest problems we had were the location thing.
1539900	1543080	We had trouble finding a location initially, so we kept moving around.
1543360	1546660	Which caused a lot of people to go, eh, I don't know where it's going to be this month.
1546660	1548500	I don't want to bother tracking it down.
1549560	1553460	Finding the time to organize where it was going to be, what we were going to talk about.
1554340	1558320	As well as updating the website so people knew that it was current.
1559320	1565980	And then we had a little bit of issue, too, where making friends with the different lugs, the different Unix groups.
1565980	1571180	We actually have like a Unix user group, a bunch of Linux user groups, BSD group, the 2600.
1571180	1574720	And letting them know that we weren't in competition with them.
1574780	1579100	We weren't trying to pull people away from, oh, you can't hang out with them anymore because you're with us.
1579100	1581520	And that we were actually more of a supplemental group.
1581760	1589260	Where, hey, if you like what they talked about at the Seattle wireless meeting, but want to hang out with four or five guys, we can spend some time going more in depth with it.
1589920	1591380	And that's what we're here for.
1591720	1598820	And I think one of the biggest ways we overcame that was getting the mailing list set up, getting the website set up, advertising it.
1598920	1603900	So once people in their various lugs and things like that started seeing, oh, no, I went to that, it was cool.
1603980	1608160	They realized, okay, the meetings exist, it's valid, you're not going to waste your Sunday.
1609100	1613140	Tracking down a location like you're trying to find a rave, you know, only to find nothing.
1613460	1616520	So that was one of the biggest problems we faced.
1616940	1621100	So in Dallas, the biggest thing, of course, was getting the word out that it was going on.
1621900	1624700	We were really lucky and had an excellent location right off.
1624700	1628020	Unfortunately, it's fallen apart lately, but that's a whole different story.
1629720	1637380	But the other problem we had in the beginning was I was trying to give these guys too much control about what we did.
1637380	1640940	You give too many people too many options and everybody goes nuts.
1640940	1645040	So I finally ended up saying, no, this is the day we're meeting on, this is where we're going to meet.
1645160	1647500	Be there or don't, it's up to you.
1648400	1651380	Trying to give them, okay, so we want to meet on Wednesdays or Thursdays?
1651380	1653940	We want to meet on this day, we want to meet here, we want to meet there.
1654000	1655420	It didn't work.
1655960	1661220	It was basically sitting down and just saying, okay, this is where we're going to meet, this is when we're going to meet.
1661960	1664340	This is who's presenting. If you want to present, great.
1664340	1666660	If not, at least show up.
1667380	1669020	It's really worked really well.
1669020	1675360	We have 100 people on our mailing list and we usually have between 30 and 40 people show up every month.
1678340	1679780	I'll go back to it.
1679780	1691540	Like I said earlier, Salt Lake City or DC801 was one of the pilot DC groups along with the Colorado Springs guys.
1692600	1699940	Russ called me up one day and said, hey, I just got off the phone with DT and we want to try doing this thing.
1700280	1704880	And we're going to do it in Colorado Springs and we want to know if Salt Lake's interested.
1704880	1709400	And we said, sure. We didn't want to do it in a food court like 2600 is.
1709400	1716560	Like I said, we bounce around to different restaurants and things and we got laptops up on the tables and we get stuff done.
1718320	1721800	I agree as well. Someone has to take ownership of it.
1722140	1729480	Like the too many chiefs just doesn't work out because everybody wants to say, well, my schedule doesn't work with that.
1729640	1731560	This doesn't work with that. It's like, okay, well...
1732860	1740300	So the impromptu meetings have worked really well for us, whether it be a couple weeks in advance or a couple hours.
1740300	1744400	And then whoever can be there can be there and we can fill in the other guys on the progress when they get there.
1744400	1751940	But somebody has to be able to say, okay, this is what we're doing and this is when we're meeting and where.
1751940	1754340	And then round everybody else up.
1754340	1761440	And a lot of us, through not only our local 2600 meeting, but through DC groups as well, have become really good friends.
1761700	1767400	And that's nice. I mean, you get to meet people who...
1767980	1771580	Like generally, I don't like people, but...
1772180	1773640	But yet you love gatherings.
1774400	1778620	Because I'm an asshole, but I like other assholes.
1778760	1780700	Or really smart people.
1780700	1787620	So it's nice to get a bunch of smart people together and know that, all right, these guys are intelligent, you can have an intelligent conversation.
1787800	1791260	So you're not just going to go to a barbecue and watch your friends set themselves on fire.
1791260	1793560	Well, you might watch your friends set themselves on fire.
1793560	1794840	You haven't been to our meetings yet.
1794840	1798440	Yeah, but at the same time, you might get something coded too.
1799140	1801800	For us, I think it was entirely attendance.
1801800	1805060	You know, venue was initially a little bit of a challenge, but not much.
1805060	1810300	I think the biggest challenge we had initially was turning 5 people into 10, into 15.
1810480	1813760	And to be completely honest, it was almost all word of mouth with us.
1813760	1819140	I basically harassed everybody I knew who was in the community until they came.
1819140	1823700	And I would call them relentlessly and say, dude, why aren't you at the meetings? Please come out.
1823700	1827700	And once people would come out, they'd come out, they'd have a good time, they'd see a presentation.
1827700	1828920	I'd say, bring somebody else.
1828920	1831020	And eventually, that caught on.
1831020	1833620	By the time we hit 20 people, we were 30 overnight.
1833620	1838220	And it's been pretty consistent since as long as I send out reminder emails.
1838340	1841140	So how many members was it until you hit critical mass?
1841420	1843420	Until it started growing on its own?
1843420	1847800	Because that's the problem we have with a lot of the groups is they can't get past that critical mass.
1847800	1849220	They don't know how to get there.
1849220	1852720	Three or four meetings, we were probably only like five or six people.
1852720	1857020	And it was people that were, you know, mostly close friends of mine and folks that I knew.
1857760	1862000	And I'd say after the third or fourth meeting, we kind of did an email blast.
1862000	1865540	We, you know, sent some stuff out to everybody that had signed up at the website.
1865540	1868260	We pretty much just kind of talked to everybody we knew.
1868260	1869840	We said, hey, come out, come to a meeting.
1869840	1875760	I think we, that was one of the first times we had like multiple presenters was our fourth, fifth meeting.
1875920	1878480	And by that time, we had a few other people catch on.
1878480	1882040	And again, to be honest, I was really kind of an annoying prick to everybody.
1882040	1884560	I just wouldn't leave them alone until they came to the meetings.
1884560	1888460	I guess eventually they just wanted me to shut up, so they came.
1889360	1896360	Alright, so if you had one word to describe the personality of your DCG, what would it be?
1896360	1897160	Drunk.
1898660	1900460	But it's fun!
1902760	1903960	Alcoholics.
1904060	1905300	Alcoholics?
1905420	1906810	All of the above.
1907340	1908960	That's not one word.
1909420	1910580	All.
1911560	1912200	Thirsty.
1912200	1914820	And I mean that in multiple regards.
1915100	1915940	Everybody's thirsty.
1915940	1918400	We're at a tequila bar, but everybody's thirsty for knowledge, too.
1918400	1923760	Everybody wants something out of the meetings, and I think at least 60% of the time, they get it.
1924040	1924780	Right, right.
1924780	1926500	And Grifter, yours is Mormon.
1929500	1931180	Actually, ours is pretty dedicated.
1931180	1933880	We don't have a lot of people, but the people that show up are consistent.
1933880	1934960	They come every month.
1935640	1938600	Something we talked about last month, for example.
1938600	1941960	They'll come back and be, hey, we talked about that last month and left off on it.
1941960	1942860	Where were we?
1942860	1945180	So they're pretty dedicated and persistent about it.
1945180	1945820	Very cool.
1945820	1947840	Grifter, what is your descriptive word?
1948100	1949580	I don't really have one.
1949720	1951980	I'm actually out of the...
1952520	1953620	What? Yes.
1954360	1955160	No.
1958340	1959140	But the...
1959140	1962180	Actually, I'm only one of, like, two Mormons out there.
1962180	1965040	So there's two of us out of, like, the other group.
1965420	1966900	We keep it gangsta.
1967600	1971460	Have any of you had any problems with law enforcement with the group?
1971580	1973920	Other than mall security? No.
1973960	1977800	I've actually been doing my best to bring out a lot of the local law enforcement.
1977800	1982640	We've got a pretty big IT security law enforcement community in Atlanta.
1982640	1985280	We've got, you know, the FBI, the GBI.
1985280	1990640	We've got high-tech crime units with a lot of the local federal state agencies.
1990680	1993860	And I've really been trying to encourage them to come partake in the process.
1993860	1996880	To be honest, out of 30 people in our group,
1996900	1999900	I can guarantee that 20 of them would be absolutely...
2001080	2004620	They would die to have, like, you know, a two-sided presentation.
2004620	2009560	Have some, you know, local law enforcement come out and talk about the forensic process.
2009560	2015080	And, you know, maybe the same thing from somebody who's unwilling to give their name at the beginning or end of their presentation.
2015080	2021580	So I'm working really hard to kind of make sure that there's no discrimination, law enforcement or otherwise.
2021600	2026880	You know, we want hacker kids, we want security professionals, we want cops, we want feds.
2027560	2032700	Yeah, we've actually tried... I've been trying to get a couple of field agents to come down and talk about forensics.
2033300	2036340	And, yeah, because we haven't had... But then again, we meet in an office.
2036520	2040760	One of our members owns a business, so we actually have our own...
2040760	2044020	We use their boardroom, which is sometimes a ping-pong table.
2044600	2050260	And, you know, so there's no interaction with law enforcement unless we're throwing things out the window, which doesn't happen.
2050260	2056120	So, but yeah, I wouldn't mind having them come down and talk to us.
2059720	2061640	Okay. All right.
2063400	2069200	As far as I know, we haven't had any show up, but, you know, I don't ask for IDs. Huh?
2070160	2071880	It would beat the feds.
2071980	2075600	Yeah, I can either confirm or deny any accusations at this particular point in time.
2075900	2083660	So, Chaos, when the feds come out and the law enforcement stuff, do you have any conflicts or any issues with the other attendees?
2083660	2087680	I don't think so. And I've asked on multiple occasions.
2087680	2095340	And to be honest, I honestly think that the significant majority of our group would really prefer that we do have some local law enforcement come out.
2095340	2102080	Again, I think most of the people that come to our meetings are, if they're not in the InfoSec community, they'd like to be.
2102240	2108240	You know, they're really trying to get into security, you know, from one angle or another.
2108240	2111420	But the bottom line is, I think everybody would like that involvement.
2111420	2114240	They'd like that perspective in the meetings as well, you know.
2114240	2117760	We talk about security as much as insecurity, if not more.
2117760	2122960	But, you know, there's no real... there's no difference between the two, so...
2122960	2124000	What did you say?
2124120	2128880	I said, because it's sexy. Information security is so sexy.
2129720	2131400	Grifter, that's just you, buddy.
2131400	2132740	No, but, thanks.
2132740	2151220	I honestly believe that, I know, I haven't like taken a poll of the members or anything, but I honestly believe there would be a lot less discussion if there was an openly fed at the meetings, you know.
2151220	2154460	There would be a lot less discussion about some of the things we talk about.
2155640	2158080	Whereas I'd be happy to see a little bit of it.
2158240	2162980	Partially because I'd like to see the group exposed, both sides being exposed to one another.
2163180	2176920	Because where a lot of the problems with law enforcement seem to stem from is, all of a sudden, whatever agency, or state, local, federal, whatever, suddenly says, oh my god, there's this hacker group that just popped up on radar in our backyard.
2176920	2179460	Who are these guys? What are they doing? We need to get in there.
2179740	2184340	Whereas if we invite them down, that's an easy way of saying, look, we're not up to anything.
2184460	2186160	You're welcome to come hang out at the meetings.
2186920	2192720	See, look, real live hackers, they're not scary, they're not plotting violent overthrow of the government.
2193080	2201160	And on top of that, it also shows some of the guys that show up that, see, law enforcement, they put their pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us.
2201880	2206900	In fact, last time I talked to an FBI agent, we sat around commiserating about our bosses.
2207340	2211620	The only difference is when he gets into work in the morning, he puts his badge and his gun in his desk.
2212140	2213800	And I don't.
2213800	2216220	So kind of the same lifestyles.
2217180	2219900	Don't get me wrong. I mean, I think it would be really interesting.
2220020	2231860	I just, I feel that a lot of the discussion we do have would be, we either wouldn't have the same discussions or the discussions wouldn't be as complete as they are now.
2231860	2234360	I wouldn't recommend it every meeting, you know.
2234720	2239440	I mean, I think the bottom line is, hey, what would this conference be if we didn't have Feds here? You know what I mean?
2239440	2243280	It does something to the energy and the atmosphere and I think it also encourages...
2243280	2246240	But we play spot the Fed because they're not out in the open.
2246600	2253320	Inviting them in and saying, hey, here's your local Fed, let's talk about all this stuff, it's a completely different atmosphere.
2253320	2256740	We play spot the Fed because they don't want us to know they're here.
2256740	2260500	Yes, we know because we're not stupid, but they're too stupid to realize that.
2263660	2264840	Yes, ma'am.
2267640	2268280	Me?
2284040	2286220	Oh, no, no, I completely understand that.
2286220	2289600	And like I said, it would be very interesting to have them there.
2289940	2299860	Okay, so what she said was that it would be good if a Fed came and presented and then have basically a counter-argument presented, working like the opposite...
2300640	2302500	Did I understand that correctly?
2309200	2318160	Right, so what she's saying is, you know, you have a Fed come in, do a presentation, and then the next meeting, you discuss in the meeting, you know, what was talked about.
2318400	2328800	So that it's less pressure on those people. And I agree, on a one-off basis, I think it would be great to have, you know, somebody from law enforcement come in, do a presentation.
2328960	2338600	But if they're there and they're out all the time, the overall discussion, meeting to meeting, I think would be a lot different than what it is now.
2338600	2341480	And I think that would hinder a lot of the discussions that we have.
2341480	2347140	Don't get me wrong, I think it would be really cool, just not on a regular basis, not like every single month.
2347140	2350880	Yeah, no, on a regular basis, you know, because, I mean, it's kind of getting scary.
2351020	2356160	You know, things like the DMCA, Patriot Act, or Patriot 2 now, you know.
2356260	2358780	The whole reverse engineering thing with the...
2358780	2365080	Yeah, exactly, the fact that things that really, frankly, shouldn't be illegal, have become, such as reverse engineering.
2365280	2373340	Yeah, I could see it stifling innovation a little bit, where it's like, okay, this guy's friendly enough, but do I really want to show him how I hacked the firmware on this particular piece of software?
2373340	2375760	Because he might just turn around and bring a hammer down on me.
2375760	2384060	You know, so, yeah, I definitely wouldn't recommend having them on a regular basis, but it's always good to have them come in, maybe for a one-off type thing.
2384120	2386320	Because it's interesting to see, you know, what are they doing?
2386600	2389420	You know, we'll show them what we're doing, if they'll show us what they're doing.
2390040	2393540	And, you know, like I said, I have 30, 40 people show up every month.
2393540	2396340	I don't know if any one of them is a Fed or not.
2397380	2404080	My group makes fun of me, because I do a standard disclaimer at the beginning of every meeting, saying, everything we're talking about is hypothetical.
2404080	2406680	Everything we're showing here are things that we do on our own networks.
2406680	2410860	This is not anything where we're not taking out anyone else, we're not doing anything illegal.
2410860	2413020	All of this is just for our own entertainment.
2413200	2418340	And I say that, you know, and everybody makes fun of me, but it's like, you know, I don't know who these people are.
2418380	2421480	I mean, I don't ask for IDs, I don't ask where they work.
2421480	2423320	Some of them I know, some of them I don't.
2423320	2425080	So, you know, it's...
2426060	2435320	Okay, well, this leads us into a fairly good discussion of, we're not just a US-based organization anymore.
2435540	2441200	I mean, like Noit said, we've got... how many outside of the country do we have, Michelle?
2441840	2447900	Like 15, 20 groups all over the world, including Iran and Saudi Arabia.
2448220	2455060	I mean, to hold groups there, you know, you're under a lot of pressure and a lot of legal and political pressure.
2455080	2458000	Do you guys ever consider yourselves lucky?
2458020	2460480	Does your group ever talk about things like that?
2460480	2462380	And do you utilize that freedom?
2462380	2465540	Ours does, and we do consider ourselves lucky.
2465540	2471340	In fact, I correspond with a guy in Tehran from time to time, just because I'm sort of fascinated with the, you know,
2471340	2474620	wow, what's it like running a hacker meeting in Tehran?
2475160	2480160	I mean, this is a place that's, you know, we complain about things getting repressive here.
2480160	2486920	There are a hundred times further down the road than we are at the moment, you know, where, I mean,
2486920	2489880	being a hacker in Iran can still get you executed.
2490020	2493080	So it's kind of got a different edge to it, you know?
2493420	2498500	And, you know, I like interacting with the... I talk to the Malaysia guys all the time.
2498840	2501760	And it's interesting to see the different backgrounds, because, like, for example,
2502020	2505920	a lot of these places that are hosting these meetings aren't first world countries.
2506800	2511660	So it's interesting to see these guys have to do some sort of real, real hardcore hacking
2511660	2514800	when they're working on projects, because these dudes got to hustle.
2514800	2517260	They don't just whip out the credit card and buy the parts kit.
2517540	2520950	They got to go dig through the junkyard and find the old abandoned APC
2521500	2524260	to get the big piece of metal off that they wanted and, you know,
2524260	2528040	happen to stumble across the satellite receiver while they're at it and, you know.
2528220	2532440	So it's actually kind of almost more hardcore, because these guys have really got to hustle
2532440	2535480	to get their projects together.
2535480	2539300	They don't have a radio shack on the corner they can go down to and get gear at or fries.
2539960	2542380	So, you know, I think we're pretty lucky.
2542380	2545860	Well, I'd say, you know, everybody sitting in this room is lucky,
2545860	2549560	because they get to come to DEF CON, the actual conference.
2551720	2556140	There are emails that come across the different DEF CON lists
2556140	2560600	that are always like, you know, when is DEF CON coming to Australia?
2560600	2562620	When is DEF CON coming to Singapore?
2562620	2565040	When is DEF CON coming here, there or the other place?
2565540	2568560	DEF CON is in Las Vegas and you're all here in Las Vegas.
2568740	2572140	So these guys connect to DEF CON through these groups.
2572400	2576060	And it's like if DEF CON can bring a little bit of that to them,
2576060	2579760	then, I mean, we're not doing too bad.
2580600	2581900	Anything else, guys?
2582480	2585460	I'll be honest. I think we probably take it for granted most of the time.
2585460	2586860	And I think you've got some excellent points.
2586860	2590300	You know, I think it's something we all have to consider, like you said.
2590600	2592260	We're lucky to be here and be able to do this.
2592260	2595860	And I think, you know, one of the things that I would like to see,
2596360	2598680	especially from our own local group, from the Atlanta group,
2598680	2601760	is more interaction with the other D.C. groups.
2601800	2604360	Not just in the U.S., but worldwide.
2604360	2607480	I think there's probably a lot that we could do and organize
2607480	2609540	by working with one another.
2609760	2611260	What that is, I don't really have any idea.
2611260	2612740	But it seems like there'd be a lot.
2612740	2616440	So I'd like to see some of that communication between D.C. groups
2616440	2618400	because I think we would all benefit from it.
2618400	2621460	And, you know, then regardless of whether we're the D.C. group
2621460	2624640	that's got five regular members or 30 regular members,
2624640	2627340	everybody would feel like they're part of a bigger regular meeting
2627340	2631320	when you're interacting with, you know, the 303 group
2631320	2635260	and the 206 group, you know, on a regular basis.
2635460	2637140	Right. All right.
2637140	2639680	Are there any other questions out from the audience yet?
2639920	2640740	All right.
2640740	2644200	So what's the most impressive thing you've ever learned at one of your meetings?
2651230	2653030	Corfidio is great tequila.
2659040	2659960	Wow.
2659960	2663660	That my friends are smarter than I am.
2664940	2666820	You know, that's pretty impressive.
2666820	2668560	That I have friends.
2669320	2671980	Actually, I think one of the most impressive things I've learned is,
2671980	2675460	I think one of the most impressive things I've learned is
2675460	2681460	we have a guy who, Crash, who is constantly messing with the WRT54G
2682100	2684300	Linksys wireless router firmware.
2684560	2687880	And I've seen that guy just do some pretty amazing stuff
2687880	2690960	where first he was building nodes.
2691040	2693180	Now he's got them, like, meshed.
2693180	2696020	So that's pretty impressive because I don't do a lot of firmware stuff.
2696020	2698020	So I'm kind of fascinated by that.
2698020	2699000	Very cool.
2700240	2702520	You know, I say in jest that, you know,
2702520	2705600	the most interesting thing I learned was that my friends are smarter than I am.
2705600	2707340	But I honestly mean that.
2707980	2713900	I think that, I don't know, it's just kind of nice to know that there are people out there who are brilliant,
2713900	2719980	who will sit down and listen to one another and, you know, get some things done.
2719980	2722720	So, I mean, that's the most interesting thing to me,
2722720	2731420	is that people will come together and just throw out an idea and can make that happen.
2731420	2736200	That their brains are capable of just taking somebody's whim and making it a reality.
2736380	2740560	Yeah, likewise, I think the most impressive thing I've learned is that there are 29 other people
2740560	2744640	who want to come out once a month and talk about security and watch presentations
2745100	2747700	and talk about hacking links as routers.
2747700	2750280	That's kind of cool to me.
2750280	2751180	Very cool.
2751220	2753340	Well, thanks for coming to the talk.
2753380	2756520	These guys will be around for the rest of the weekend.
2756520	2757860	Thanks for your questions.
2757860	2759780	I've got two books to give away.
2761420	2765400	Also, I've got two copies of Aggressive Network Self-Defense,
2765600	2769440	a book that, again, my friends are smarter than I am,
2769440	2774820	put together a group of friends that we all put together this book on strikeback technology.
2775440	2780460	Some of us will be signing it right after this at the Breakpoint Books table.
2780740	2783160	Johnny Long, who's standing over here about to come up on stage,
2783160	2786160	will be over there shortly after his talk to do it.
2787220	2789500	I don't know how I want to give these away.
2789500	2792540	Does someone have a weird accent?
2793900	2798480	Yeah, I guess we can give it to this guy here who's as cool as his hat is.
2799140	2800700	That's the best hat, man.
2818360	2819440	Thanks, man.
2819720	2821480	See you later. Thanks a lot.