WEBVTT 00:02.750 --> 00:04.870 I'm God-Minus-One. 00:04.870 --> 00:10.470 I'm the point of contact and organizer for the DC groups in Baltimore, Maryland. 00:11.290 --> 00:13.330 I'm Mad Hat from Dallas. 00:13.330 --> 00:17.830 I'm on the DC-214 group, and I want to say that I think we're the first official group to have a scene whore. 00:20.690 --> 00:22.010 I'm Grifter. 00:22.010 --> 00:27.010 I organize the DC-801 group out of Salt Lake City. 00:27.830 --> 00:28.950 And I'm Dr. 00:28.950 --> 00:29.410 Chaos. 00:29.410 --> 00:31.850 I organize the DC-404 group out of Atlanta. 00:33.230 --> 00:40.370 So these are five of the best groups we've got, and I think at last count we were at like 88 or something like that. 00:40.370 --> 00:54.350 Yeah, 88, and we have DEFCON groups as far away as Tehran, Iran, Ankara, Turkey, Penang, Malaysia, and Tokyo, and I think we just got one in Brisbane, Australia. 00:54.990 --> 00:57.310 So we've got them all over the world. 00:59.350 --> 01:00.310 Oh, and Saudi Arabia. 01:00.310 --> 01:02.130 We got one in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. 01:02.750 --> 01:07.850 Yeah, if you've got a DEFCON group in Iran, you know you're pretty good, right? 01:09.210 --> 01:12.050 Alright, so I'm going to start with Noid. 01:12.310 --> 01:15.830 What goals did you have in mind when you wanted to start a DEFCON group? 01:15.830 --> 01:19.210 When you started this, what was it that you were trying to accomplish? 01:19.390 --> 01:23.110 Well, I think initially for me on a personal level, it was to alleviate boredom. 01:23.630 --> 01:32.730 I used to run the Los Angeles 2600 group, and then after I moved to Washington, I sort of fell out of things for a bit and found myself with a lot of free time on my hands. 01:32.750 --> 01:50.650 And I'd been to some of the different meetings, some of the LUGs, some of the Unix user groups, the local 2600, and decided that, you know, we should do a DC206, keep it small, and just strictly focus not on talking about tech, but focus specifically on doing things. 01:50.790 --> 01:56.370 Because, as we all know, if you get more than four or five hackers involved in a project, nothing gets done. 01:56.510 --> 02:01.130 So if we keep the group really small, we could pick a project each month and build stuff. 02:01.130 --> 02:04.470 And that was the plan, was to actually build functional equipment. 02:05.010 --> 02:07.670 Which we've been somewhat successful at. 02:08.090 --> 02:10.330 Alright, this one goes out to all the groups. 02:10.330 --> 02:14.950 What kind of projects, cool projects, has your group worked on so far? 02:15.190 --> 02:17.530 So what are some of the coolest ones you've seen? 02:18.270 --> 02:21.390 Well, we built a GPS jammer. 02:22.830 --> 02:29.510 We actually have a radio and TV jammer we're building, provided the guy here with the kit finds me at some point during the convention. 02:31.050 --> 02:31.990 What else? 02:31.990 --> 02:33.550 We built something else that was really cool. 02:34.310 --> 02:37.690 We reverse-engineered an IDS appliance we'd come across. 02:38.090 --> 02:44.870 Found out that the processor was actually designed to support keyboard and video out. 02:45.730 --> 02:56.590 They just hadn't put the stuff in, so we had to sit down and do some micro-drilling and were able to turn the thing into a fully functional computer that's this big and can get mounted so we have a portable hotspot. 02:56.910 --> 02:58.190 Oh, that's cool. 02:58.190 --> 02:59.830 Anyone else? 03:00.650 --> 03:04.550 We set up Silk Network that a lot of people have been using. 03:05.070 --> 03:07.830 It's like IRC, but actually secure. 03:08.330 --> 03:11.350 Lots of different projects. 03:11.350 --> 03:20.130 The spa thing that we presented on at Black Hat and mentioned here was all based on discussions we had there. 03:20.830 --> 03:22.030 Okay. 03:22.050 --> 03:24.650 We bring content to DEF CON. 03:27.190 --> 03:30.290 We haven't been very project-based in Atlanta yet. 03:30.290 --> 03:34.710 We've talked a lot about projects, but we've been kind of more thematically oriented. 03:34.710 --> 03:36.070 We do presentations. 03:36.070 --> 03:41.090 We have folks come talk about pertinent security topics, pertinent hacking topics. 03:42.030 --> 03:52.070 Of course, we do our meetings at a tequila bar, so unless we get a consensus really early on, we don't really know what projects are going to come about the next meeting. 03:52.070 --> 03:56.030 But we've had discussion around projects, building components, building devices. 03:56.350 --> 04:07.650 We've talked about modifying wireless devices, and we've gone into detail on the process of doing so, but we haven't actually done any projects as part of the meetings yet. 04:08.090 --> 04:08.670 Right. 04:11.650 --> 04:15.190 DC410, it started out as a close group of friends. 04:15.190 --> 04:17.290 It started growing larger and larger. 04:17.290 --> 04:19.530 We do presentations every week. 04:19.530 --> 04:31.990 We started organizing a CTF, and basically from the ground up, we're starting with basic tools and going all the way up, teaching everyone how to use it, showing them how to use it, which has really been cool. 04:31.990 --> 04:33.550 We have speakers. 04:33.550 --> 04:36.350 Chris Hurley comes a lot, a couple times. 04:36.350 --> 04:38.170 Jack Holleran's been there. 04:38.690 --> 04:41.830 So we get some people that know their stuff coming and doing talks. 04:42.270 --> 04:45.170 So who are some of the cooler speakers that you guys have had there? 04:45.170 --> 04:46.850 Have you had any speakers at yours? 04:46.930 --> 04:58.770 We have talks every meeting, so we meet once a month at a bar, and we're lucky to have SimpleNomad, so anytime we're searching for something, SimpleNomad normally steps up and says, I'll do a talk. 04:58.770 --> 05:08.070 But we've also had some great other talks by other people like from CAU and other people from NMRC, so we've been really lucky to have some of the people in the Dallas area. 05:09.170 --> 05:10.070 Very cool. 05:10.070 --> 05:11.850 Are there any questions out here yet? 05:12.370 --> 05:12.870 None? 05:12.870 --> 05:13.490 Alright. 05:14.330 --> 05:18.030 Where would you like to see your group, technically, in a year? 05:19.230 --> 05:21.450 What are your goals for the future for your group? 05:21.450 --> 05:30.190 I personally, for the DC206, we're one of the groups that isn't doing focused talks with some guest speakers, and that's something I'd like to see a little bit more of. 05:30.670 --> 05:40.190 Because particularly up in the Seattle area, we've got some really bright people like the GhettoHackers, and then some other people that just don't really pop up on radar, and some folks down in Portland. 05:40.450 --> 05:47.510 I know we've got a guy who wants to come up and talk about Asterix, and we have another friend of ours who worked for SourceForge. 05:47.510 --> 05:55.390 He knows Snort inside and out, so we want to have him come up and talk about it. 05:55.770 --> 05:58.610 It just seems that logistics have been a problem for us. 05:58.810 --> 06:07.890 The Snort guy's got cancer, so he's getting chemo right now, and the Portland guy's availability is scattered because he's all over the place. 06:07.890 --> 06:18.870 But a year from now, I'd like to see us having each meeting with a focused speaker at the beginning, and then a technical portion at the end of the meeting where we can apply what we've been taught. 06:18.870 --> 06:27.330 Like if the Snort guy comes in and talks for an hour, we can then sit down with some Snort boxes and practice writing filters and things like that, making our own signatures. 06:27.790 --> 06:31.770 Because we've got a pretty wide group of people that show up. 06:31.890 --> 06:33.710 We've got some people that work in the industry. 06:33.710 --> 06:37.770 We've got some people that are just not in the industry, but really smart technical people. 06:37.770 --> 06:43.170 And we've got a lot of people that show up that just want to learn new stuff, so it's a chance for all of us to pick up something new. 06:43.610 --> 06:44.470 Very cool. 06:44.870 --> 06:45.590 Guys? 06:47.490 --> 06:52.890 The one thing I would like to do is expand a little more, maybe get some more people with deeper knowledge. 06:54.230 --> 07:03.530 One of the things, we hold our meeting at a college campus, which is great because we have computers for everyone to use, we have projectors, what not. 07:04.110 --> 07:14.730 The college actually buys our pizza for our meetings, figuring that the professor that works there is getting all this knowledge by going to this group. 07:14.730 --> 07:19.650 So I'll throw in $40 to feed these guys, hoping that he's going to get more knowledge every month. 07:19.650 --> 07:32.150 So basically, the only downside with that is the fact that they advertise it there and we get people that show up once in a while and have absolutely no interest in computers whatsoever. 07:32.410 --> 07:34.970 Kind of like the scene whore he was talking about earlier. 07:35.090 --> 07:36.570 They just want the pizza? 07:36.570 --> 07:37.670 Pretty much. 07:38.430 --> 07:41.190 She, in theory, has interest in computers. 07:41.430 --> 07:43.890 That's just the secondary interest. 07:43.970 --> 07:45.390 Vibrators don't count. 07:47.310 --> 07:52.190 I'd like to see DC214 get some more organized projects for the entire group. 07:52.550 --> 08:02.470 Spa was cool, but it was more of... we had several discussions about it, and then Nomad and I actually did a lot of the work on it, as well as Druid helping out. 08:02.510 --> 08:07.130 But I'd like to see us... in the front row, I've got seven of my guys right here. 08:08.090 --> 08:13.530 But we're not really... unfortunately, we haven't really done anything with any of the contests that are going on. 08:13.530 --> 08:17.970 But I'd love to see us get involved in the contest so that next year we have one or two projects in there. 08:19.410 --> 08:22.450 Yeah, I'm pretty much in the same boat. 08:22.450 --> 08:26.490 I think it'd be nice to get a little bit more direction as far as projects go. 08:27.710 --> 08:31.930 Also, nailing down a specific location where we'll meet. 08:32.470 --> 08:36.110 Currently, we'll just meet whenever we can. 08:36.110 --> 08:37.510 We'll get the most people together. 08:37.510 --> 08:47.470 We have an IRC channel that everybody pretty much idles in, and when the topic changes to DC801 meeting here, it's like sending up the bat signal and everybody comes running to wherever. 08:49.610 --> 08:59.070 We spend a lot of time at IHOP at midnight, one in the morning, with printouts of all different things and a pen, running over papers and stuff. 08:59.070 --> 09:03.790 And then the next time we'll meet, we'll meet at somebody's house and have a bunch of food. 09:04.670 --> 09:08.230 We'll work on little DEF CON projects that we're working on. 09:09.470 --> 09:19.330 We do the DEF CON movie channel, so we'll have all the filler running on the TV in the background so we can watch it and see what's jacked and what's not. 09:21.450 --> 09:26.930 Just start to put things together, the things that we've worked on, those nights eating pancakes. 09:28.430 --> 09:36.330 But basically I think that's the direction on projects and being able to focus on something and then release that to the community. 09:37.090 --> 09:40.550 Getting people to be able to get together all at once. 09:40.790 --> 09:49.390 I'm sure those of you in DC groups know how hard it is to have everyone who is working on a project be able to get together at the same time. 09:49.450 --> 09:52.390 We have jobs, lives, wives, whatever. 09:53.590 --> 10:02.810 So I think just more focus and you can never have too much organization as far as getting your projects out there. 10:03.470 --> 10:07.390 Yeah, I'd have to echo Alana the same regarding organization. 10:07.390 --> 10:09.170 I've actually been really proud of our group. 10:09.170 --> 10:16.290 We have really good attendance and we've got a really good body of knowledge between all the folks who come to the meetings. 10:16.290 --> 10:21.670 We've probably got an average of 25 to 35 people who come to the meetings each month. 10:22.390 --> 10:29.710 Lately we've had kind of a waning attendance because I've been a little bit slack on sending out meeting notices and meeting updates. 10:29.710 --> 10:35.730 But overall we probably have a core of 15 who are guaranteed not going to miss a meeting. 10:35.730 --> 10:38.790 And then we've got another 15 who generally always show up. 10:38.950 --> 10:43.110 We've got a lot of smart people in the community in Atlanta. 10:43.110 --> 10:45.310 It's truly an IT hub there. 10:45.310 --> 10:48.810 So echoing what Noid said, we've got a lot of security professionals. 10:48.810 --> 10:50.090 We've got a lot of tech geeks. 10:50.090 --> 10:54.110 We've got a lot of aspiring security professionals and aspiring hackers. 10:54.110 --> 10:57.430 And that's been very good because everybody's hungry for knowledge. 10:57.430 --> 11:00.990 Everybody's got ideas about what they want to talk about and what they want to do. 11:01.050 --> 11:07.570 And I think really my goal would be to kind of just funnel that energy and follow in the same path that we've gone so far. 11:07.570 --> 11:13.930 I think we've seen a lot of good growth and development across the past year plus that we've been holding meetings. 11:14.090 --> 11:16.050 We're very lucky with our venue. 11:16.130 --> 11:18.670 The exception being that we're about to run out of space. 11:19.470 --> 11:27.250 I kind of kid... I'm not kidding in that we actually have our meetings at a tequila bar, but they're closed on the one day during the month when we're doing our meetings. 11:27.250 --> 11:29.410 So we have complete run of the place. 11:29.410 --> 11:30.890 We've got ceiling-mounted projectors. 11:30.890 --> 11:32.030 We've got free Wi-Fi. 11:32.030 --> 11:36.830 And of course we have a bar for everybody to imbibe while they're there. 11:36.830 --> 11:38.290 So we generally have a good time. 11:38.290 --> 11:42.470 We've got the age range and our attendees varies from... 11:42.470 --> 11:44.950 I think the youngest attendee we've got is 15. 11:45.330 --> 11:47.970 The oldest probably being 45. 11:48.670 --> 11:51.090 So pretty much across the spectrum. 11:51.090 --> 11:53.370 And again, people come from everywhere. 11:53.710 --> 11:55.770 I would like to increase attendance. 11:55.770 --> 12:01.570 Of course the problem with that is that we're going to hit the walls on how many people we can contain in our existing venue. 12:01.570 --> 12:08.310 And we're going to have to find somewhere else that's as friendly and as hospitable with a big group of drunken hackers. 12:08.450 --> 12:10.910 So do you see a big desire? 12:10.910 --> 12:13.830 Do you see a lot of people looking for something like this? 12:13.830 --> 12:14.530 I do. 12:14.750 --> 12:26.030 I guess to go back a step, one of the things that I would like to see more is a lot of the folks in our group, I think they're very smart, they've got great ideas, but they have a lot of hesitation to speaking. 12:26.250 --> 12:28.470 They don't want to get up and do the presentations. 12:28.670 --> 12:38.510 We've got a guy in the group who could probably do things with a wireless access point, modifications to a WRT-54G that I couldn't dream of. 12:38.510 --> 12:39.890 But he doesn't want to talk about it. 12:39.890 --> 12:45.770 He'd rather write a presentation and give it for somebody else to get up and talk about the project. 12:45.770 --> 12:49.090 So I'd like to see the people in our group becoming more participatory. 12:49.090 --> 12:52.230 I mean, I think people do, they are looking for it. 12:52.230 --> 12:58.030 They're looking for this opportunity to come and geek out with everybody else and talk security, talk shop, talk tech. 12:58.710 --> 13:02.970 I'm hoping that more folks will get up and kind of take part in the presentation process. 13:02.970 --> 13:10.690 We've probably had five different speakers across the past year, but it's a lot of the same people coming back up and doing presentations. 13:10.730 --> 13:11.430 Right, right. 13:11.430 --> 13:15.190 Just out of curiosity, how many out of the five groups here have that problem? 13:16.090 --> 13:16.730 Absolutely. 13:17.310 --> 13:18.090 We do. 13:18.610 --> 13:25.810 We will have someone, like one of our guys, oh, I'm going to write a presentation on this. 13:25.810 --> 13:26.610 I'm like, great. 13:26.690 --> 13:27.470 Call him up. 13:27.470 --> 13:28.670 Oh, yeah, I'm on my way there. 13:28.670 --> 13:29.770 I'm on my way there. 13:29.850 --> 13:31.550 Never showed up and did the presentation. 13:32.570 --> 13:38.350 And you know, a lot of people, we have people there that are, oh, I'm a government contractor, I'm doing this, blah, blah, blah. 13:38.350 --> 13:42.170 I'm talking about all this cool shit that they're doing. 13:42.170 --> 13:48.910 And then by the time, you're like, you know, why don't you step forward and do a presentation and benefit your knowledge of the rest of us? 13:49.270 --> 13:55.970 So it's really, it's the only really problem that my group is having right now is to get the others motivated. 13:56.790 --> 14:12.210 I think part of the thing that I've seen the difference between our DC meeting and our 2600 group is when we meet for 2600 and we give presentations, somebody stands up in front of the whole group and they just talk to everybody. 14:12.210 --> 14:31.150 They present like they were presenting, you know, in a small forum where with the DC groups, it's a little, I know I just got done ranting on organized, but it's a little more organized in the fact of like, I don't know, that they can feel comfortable that they're not going to be ridiculed. 14:31.150 --> 14:34.970 They're not, it's more of an informal setting. 14:34.970 --> 14:46.470 So like I said, if somebody's house or at IHOP or whatever like that, it's easier to talk around a table while you're eating, you know, breakfast with friends than it is to get up and rant to an entire group of people. 14:46.470 --> 14:57.450 So, I don't know, some of those guys who can't talk in front of the big groups can sit there and talk, you know, over, you know, eggs or something like that. 14:57.450 --> 15:02.110 Or I'm sure once they get shit-faced, they're willing to talk about whatever it is that they're talking. 15:02.110 --> 15:05.090 You actually bring up a good point. 15:05.090 --> 15:06.970 We've heard the question over and over. 15:07.190 --> 15:09.570 Can you run a DCG in a 2600? 15:09.570 --> 15:11.590 Is there a huge difference and what is it? 15:11.590 --> 15:12.630 Does it matter? 15:13.150 --> 15:15.190 I mean, what are your issues with running both? 15:15.190 --> 15:18.470 Because several of these people run both at the same time, right? 15:20.290 --> 15:26.610 We try to work really hard to bring the folks from the local 2600 chapter to our meetings. 15:26.610 --> 15:34.090 I think there's a significantly different focus and it's probably almost the direct contrast of what Grifter said. 15:34.090 --> 15:37.930 At least in Atlanta, the 2600 group, it's very informal. 15:37.930 --> 15:40.310 It's held at a food court in the local mall. 15:40.350 --> 15:42.310 There's no real presentations. 15:42.310 --> 15:48.490 It's not always topically oriented, so it's more of just a get-together, hangout, talk about whatever's on everybody's minds. 15:48.490 --> 16:04.650 Whereas with DC groups, we've tried to really focus on kind of keeping what brings everybody to Vegas every year for Black Hat, which is, hey, we've got 30 people who come to a meeting, 25 of them would love to see a topic on the latest attacks on EAP, 16:04.650 --> 16:06.630 the latest attacks on WPA. 16:06.630 --> 16:15.610 Just tools for improving or for attacking common hardware, common software. 16:15.610 --> 16:21.570 So by keeping kind of the presentation focused, I think we've brought a really big group to the meetings. 16:21.570 --> 16:26.270 And I think we've got a lot of camaraderie with the folks that are doing 2600 meetings in Atlanta. 16:26.270 --> 16:32.110 In fact, the folks that pseudo-organize the 2600 meetings commonly show up at our meetings. 16:32.110 --> 16:36.490 I can't say that I'm always at the 2600 meetings, but it's more of a scheduling issue for me. 16:36.870 --> 16:38.670 Okay, you got a question? 16:51.560 --> 16:53.000 Then you're lucky. 16:56.040 --> 17:03.200 He said every 2600 meeting he's been to in San Francisco sounds identical to what we're describing in the DC groups. 17:03.200 --> 17:05.340 And my comment was, then he's lucky. 17:05.640 --> 17:12.520 I've only been to a couple of 2600 meetings in Dallas, and I have nothing positive to say, so I'm not going to say anything. 17:15.420 --> 17:16.720 There's a guy in the back. 17:16.720 --> 17:18.280 I hear comments. 17:18.280 --> 17:19.000 Who's got... 17:22.700 --> 17:23.860 It's Humperdinck. 17:24.460 --> 17:25.040 I have to agree. 17:25.040 --> 17:28.880 I think if you've got a well-organized 2600 chapter, that's awesome. 17:28.880 --> 17:33.960 And I think that's been kind of one of the goals with a lot of the DC groups has been to kind of fill a gap. 17:34.220 --> 17:41.500 You know, the 2600 meetings, I think, in general, like I said, I speak only for Atlanta, but they tend to be more of just a social gathering. 17:45.760 --> 17:46.300 Agreed? 17:46.300 --> 17:48.200 You know, there's a difference. 17:48.200 --> 17:51.440 At least there's an apparent difference in Salt Lake City. 17:51.440 --> 18:02.360 And that's at the 2600 meetings, there are a lot more people who are beginners, who are new to it, and they... what's that? 18:03.280 --> 18:03.900 Right. 18:03.900 --> 18:04.280 That's right. 18:04.280 --> 18:05.040 As there should be. 18:05.040 --> 18:06.700 I'm not saying that there shouldn't be. 18:06.700 --> 18:09.560 There's some younger individuals. 18:09.560 --> 18:14.480 It's a little less mature of a setting where we have the stand-up-and-talk thing. 18:14.480 --> 18:19.160 It's because if you don't, they'll see something shiny, and they'll go running off into a wall. 18:19.800 --> 18:21.220 Where... yeah. 18:22.840 --> 18:28.280 Where the DC groups that we have tend to be the guys that know stuff. 18:28.280 --> 18:31.780 And they come, and they want to work on projects, and they are project-oriented. 18:31.780 --> 18:37.140 They can sit down, and I mean, that's one of the best things that's come out of these groups. 18:38.000 --> 18:41.280 For us, it's like, I'm an idiot. 18:41.380 --> 18:43.120 I don't know everything. 18:43.180 --> 18:51.320 So, if I don't know something, but I get a great idea, I can turn to a group of guys and say, hey, make the magic happen. 18:51.500 --> 18:54.640 And they're like, alright, well, what are we going to do? 18:54.680 --> 18:59.580 And we sit down, hash it out, and then, boom, there's a new tool or something. 18:59.580 --> 19:01.960 And that's awesome, but that's the thing. 19:01.960 --> 19:09.000 At a 2600 meeting, we don't have that... we just haven't seen that project-oriented attitude. 19:09.180 --> 19:13.260 It's a little bite-sized information, and then they go. 19:13.260 --> 19:20.180 Where, with the DC groups, it's more of long-term projects, where people work on something for 6, 8, 10 months. 19:21.040 --> 19:22.140 So, I don't know. 19:22.140 --> 19:23.980 That's just how it is in Utah. 19:23.980 --> 19:25.400 I don't know about San Francisco. 19:25.400 --> 19:33.240 One of the things about Seattle I like is the fact that it's not a difference in focus, per se, between the Seattle 2600 and the DC-206. 19:33.320 --> 19:35.360 It's just a difference in size. 19:35.740 --> 19:43.020 We find that, since our group is smaller, it's easier to actually get projects done, because people have tasks and there's not a lot of chatter. 19:43.620 --> 19:46.880 The signal, the noise, kind of dials in a little bit more. 19:47.400 --> 19:54.340 Because, mostly, I'd say 99% of the people at the DC-206 are regular attendees of the Seattle 2600. 19:55.840 --> 19:56.360 So... 20:00.640 --> 20:02.000 Yeah, yes. 20:02.840 --> 20:04.460 Well, no, okay. 20:04.460 --> 20:06.260 Yes and no. 20:06.280 --> 20:12.080 The DCGs have a very primary goal of continuing to learn about technology. 20:12.580 --> 20:15.300 I mean, we don't give a damn about politics, right? 20:15.300 --> 20:16.320 We don't talk about it. 20:16.320 --> 20:22.140 We're there to talk protocols and servers, applications, vulnerabilities, whatever else. 20:24.940 --> 20:26.240 Well, and that's fine. 20:26.240 --> 20:30.060 He said, everybody's different and everybody's got their own ideas. 20:30.060 --> 20:31.520 I totally agree with that. 20:31.520 --> 20:35.940 The forum for DCGs is, we're focusing it on technology. 20:37.620 --> 20:39.160 Not every 2600, though. 20:39.160 --> 20:40.520 For us, we were just trying to... 20:40.520 --> 20:42.360 Have you read the magazine lately? 20:42.360 --> 20:44.100 We were just trying to fill a gap. 20:44.100 --> 20:45.220 Have you ever read, you know... 20:45.220 --> 20:47.900 You may have a very special 2600. 20:48.000 --> 20:48.740 Congratulations. 20:48.740 --> 20:52.120 We don't have 30 people who come to the local 2600 meetings. 20:52.140 --> 20:58.480 So what we were looking for was building camaraderie amongst a group of people who didn't come out to the 2600 meetings. 20:58.480 --> 21:03.680 A lot of the folks that are in the professional security community in Atlanta wouldn't go hang out at the food court at the mall. 21:03.680 --> 21:09.780 So there was no participation from people that have professional experience out doing penetration testing. 21:09.780 --> 21:12.560 Or, you know, doing product reviews with security products. 21:12.560 --> 21:15.420 What we were looking for was building that camaraderie. 21:15.420 --> 21:20.340 Bringing together the same kids and the same folks that go to 2600 meetings. 21:20.340 --> 21:25.920 But with the suits that want to come out and hang out and see a presentation or do a presentation. 21:26.440 --> 21:29.080 And focus more on some of the how-to's. 21:29.080 --> 21:34.140 The understanding behind the scenes that you don't get at the food court or the mall in a lot of the 2600 meetings. 21:34.260 --> 21:37.320 Not every place has a 2600 meeting, too. 21:37.940 --> 21:39.340 So, it is unfortunate. 21:39.340 --> 21:40.480 Well , it depends. 21:40.580 --> 21:44.920 If you've been to some of the 2600 meetings I've been to, I'd rather not have one. 21:45.180 --> 21:46.900 I mean, quite honestly. 21:47.180 --> 21:47.700 Alright? 21:47.920 --> 21:49.560 So that's the goal. 21:49.560 --> 21:52.940 This poor guy in the back has had his arm up to the point where it's going to fall off. 21:52.960 --> 21:55.880 You're going to have to yell, though, because I'm way up here. 22:01.040 --> 22:02.060 Scavenger hunt. 22:02.920 --> 22:04.120 Gritcher, I hate you. 22:04.120 --> 22:04.940 Okay, kids. 22:04.940 --> 22:06.160 Stay in school. 22:06.500 --> 22:08.000 It's a good thing you made him wait. 22:08.560 --> 22:09.520 Actually, yes. 22:09.520 --> 22:11.960 I don't remember how many points that's worth. 22:11.960 --> 22:12.920 Sorry, guys. 22:51.760 --> 22:55.240 Yeah, we're not saying that you don't have a great group. 22:55.240 --> 23:01.500 What we're saying is we have had such experiences that we're not getting what we need to out of that. 23:01.500 --> 23:03.540 And that's why we created the DCGs. 23:03.540 --> 23:06.680 I mean, some of the 2600 groups are really dialed in. 23:06.720 --> 23:09.340 Like, the LA 2600 is tight. 23:09.960 --> 23:13.560 San Francisco, in fact, there's actually a lot of crossover between the two. 23:13.780 --> 23:15.920 Kind of, you know, we made flyers. 23:15.920 --> 23:17.720 They said, oh, we should make flyers, too. 23:17.720 --> 23:19.900 And, you know, setting mailing lists up and stuff. 23:19.900 --> 23:21.240 And there's a lot of crossover there. 23:21.240 --> 23:25.220 But there are some places that have 2600 meetings and DEF CON meetings. 23:25.240 --> 23:25.980 That suck. 23:26.480 --> 23:28.360 So this is an attempt to... 23:29.280 --> 23:32.260 Every once in a while, I've been to a couple of places where there's a 2600 group. 23:32.520 --> 23:36.740 But nobody goes to it anymore because it's run by four or five guys that have known each other since high school. 23:37.380 --> 23:39.400 And it's kind of a click and nobody's really welcome at it. 23:39.400 --> 23:41.560 So they say, you know, we'll just go start our own thing. 23:41.560 --> 23:43.480 And this is their own thing they can start. 23:43.620 --> 23:44.440 Or vice versa. 23:44.440 --> 23:46.500 They could say, you know, our local DEF CON group sucks. 23:46.500 --> 23:47.980 We're going to start a 2600 meeting. 23:48.260 --> 23:51.820 For us, to be honest, it wasn't really... it's not a matter of competition. 23:51.820 --> 23:54.120 We just wanted to do something that wasn't being done in Atlanta. 23:54.120 --> 23:57.080 And I think we've achieved that with the DC group. 23:59.500 --> 24:00.460 All right. 24:00.460 --> 24:01.220 You know what? 24:01.220 --> 24:02.340 You got good points. 24:02.340 --> 24:04.120 Let's have that discussion offline. 24:04.120 --> 24:05.040 That's a beer conversation. 24:05.040 --> 24:07.040 We should give him a microphone. 24:07.480 --> 24:08.260 Yeah. 24:19.700 --> 24:22.120 What are the hardest things they had to deal with? 24:22.300 --> 24:25.360 Probably find a suitable meeting location. 24:25.480 --> 24:28.160 Our first two meetings were at a mall food court. 24:28.160 --> 24:34.500 And, you know, no presenters come, but there's no, you know, projectors or anything. 24:34.500 --> 24:35.600 It's loud. 24:35.600 --> 24:36.500 You can't hear it. 24:36.500 --> 24:40.480 Security walked around us about four or five times asking us what the hell we were doing there. 24:40.660 --> 24:44.420 So now we got our meeting location at the local college. 24:44.420 --> 24:47.140 And, you know, we have pretty much everything we need to. 24:47.140 --> 24:48.780 The whole school is closed. 24:48.780 --> 24:51.480 We normally have them Saturday nights. 24:51.600 --> 24:52.720 School's closed. 24:52.720 --> 24:53.540 You know, people... 24:53.540 --> 24:55.480 Highways drives down from Philadelphia. 24:55.480 --> 24:57.300 We have people coming from out of state. 24:57.300 --> 25:01.020 We got a couple of guys that drive two, three hours to come to the meetings. 25:01.700 --> 25:03.480 We have computers for everybody. 25:03.480 --> 25:10.040 We have, you know, a segmented network that we can do everything we want to with removable hard drives. 25:13.320 --> 25:14.900 The possibilities are... 25:14.900 --> 25:19.260 That would be the place that I would recommend if there's one in your area, like a local community college or whatever. 25:19.260 --> 25:20.340 Try and get in there. 25:20.340 --> 25:24.760 And they'll frequently let you have the rooms for free or for a small donation. 25:24.760 --> 25:27.840 Or sometimes the person who reserves the room needs to be a student. 25:28.300 --> 25:35.340 But at the same time, you know, it's not terribly hard to find computer science students at the local university that want to hang out with like-minded people. 25:36.220 --> 25:39.900 Some of the biggest problems we had were the location thing. 25:39.900 --> 25:43.080 We had trouble finding a location initially, so we kept moving around. 25:43.360 --> 25:46.660 Which caused a lot of people to go, eh, I don't know where it's going to be this month. 25:46.660 --> 25:48.500 I don't want to bother tracking it down. 25:49.560 --> 25:53.460 Finding the time to organize where it was going to be, what we were going to talk about. 25:54.340 --> 25:58.320 As well as updating the website so people knew that it was current. 25:59.320 --> 26:05.980 And then we had a little bit of issue, too, where making friends with the different lugs, the different Unix groups. 26:05.980 --> 26:11.180 We actually have like a Unix user group, a bunch of Linux user groups, BSD group, the 2600. 26:11.180 --> 26:14.720 And letting them know that we weren't in competition with them. 26:14.780 --> 26:19.100 We weren't trying to pull people away from, oh, you can't hang out with them anymore because you're with us. 26:19.100 --> 26:21.520 And that we were actually more of a supplemental group. 26:21.760 --> 26:29.260 Where, hey, if you like what they talked about at the Seattle wireless meeting, but want to hang out with four or five guys, we can spend some time going more in depth with it. 26:29.920 --> 26:31.380 And that's what we're here for. 26:31.720 --> 26:38.820 And I think one of the biggest ways we overcame that was getting the mailing list set up, getting the website set up, advertising it. 26:38.920 --> 26:43.900 So once people in their various lugs and things like that started seeing, oh, no, I went to that, it was cool. 26:43.980 --> 26:48.160 They realized, okay, the meetings exist, it's valid, you're not going to waste your Sunday. 26:49.100 --> 26:53.140 Tracking down a location like you're trying to find a rave, you know, only to find nothing. 26:53.460 --> 26:56.520 So that was one of the biggest problems we faced. 26:56.940 --> 27:01.100 So in Dallas, the biggest thing, of course, was getting the word out that it was going on. 27:01.900 --> 27:04.700 We were really lucky and had an excellent location right off. 27:04.700 --> 27:08.020 Unfortunately, it's fallen apart lately, but that's a whole different story. 27:09.720 --> 27:17.380 But the other problem we had in the beginning was I was trying to give these guys too much control about what we did. 27:17.380 --> 27:20.940 You give too many people too many options and everybody goes nuts. 27:20.940 --> 27:25.040 So I finally ended up saying, no, this is the day we're meeting on, this is where we're going to meet. 27:25.160 --> 27:27.500 Be there or don't, it's up to you. 27:28.400 --> 27:31.380 Trying to give them, okay, so we want to meet on Wednesdays or Thursdays? 27:31.380 --> 27:33.940 We want to meet on this day, we want to meet here, we want to meet there. 27:34.000 --> 27:35.420 It didn't work. 27:35.960 --> 27:41.220 It was basically sitting down and just saying, okay, this is where we're going to meet, this is when we're going to meet. 27:41.960 --> 27:43.120 This is who's presenting. 27:43.120 --> 27:44.340 If you want to present, great. 27:44.340 --> 27:46.660 If not, at least show up. 27:47.380 --> 27:49.020 It's really worked really well. 27:49.020 --> 27:55.360 We have 100 people on our mailing list and we usually have between 30 and 40 people show up every month. 27:58.340 --> 27:59.780 I'll go back to it. 27:59.780 --> 28:11.540 Like I said earlier, Salt Lake City or DC801 was one of the pilot DC groups along with the Colorado Springs guys. 28:12.600 --> 28:19.940 Russ called me up one day and said, hey, I just got off the phone with DT and we want to try doing this thing. 28:20.280 --> 28:24.880 And we're going to do it in Colorado Springs and we want to know if Salt Lake's interested. 28:24.880 --> 28:25.960 And we said, sure. 28:26.000 --> 28:29.400 We didn't want to do it in a food court like 2600 is. 28:29.400 --> 28:36.560 Like I said, we bounce around to different restaurants and things and we got laptops up on the tables and we get stuff done. 28:38.320 --> 28:39.700 I agree as well. 28:39.700 --> 28:41.800 Someone has to take ownership of it. 28:42.140 --> 28:49.480 Like the too many chiefs just doesn't work out because everybody wants to say, well, my schedule doesn't work with that. 28:49.640 --> 28:50.620 This doesn't work with that. 28:50.620 --> 28:51.560 It's like, okay, well... 28:52.860 --> 29:00.300 So the impromptu meetings have worked really well for us, whether it be a couple weeks in advance or a couple hours. 29:00.300 --> 29:04.400 And then whoever can be there can be there and we can fill in the other guys on the progress when they get there. 29:04.400 --> 29:11.940 But somebody has to be able to say, okay, this is what we're doing and this is when we're meeting and where. 29:11.940 --> 29:14.340 And then round everybody else up. 29:14.340 --> 29:21.440 And a lot of us, through not only our local 2600 meeting, but through DC groups as well, have become really good friends. 29:21.700 --> 29:23.300 And that's nice. 29:23.300 --> 29:27.400 I mean, you get to meet people who... 29:27.980 --> 29:31.580 Like generally, I don't like people, but... 29:32.180 --> 29:33.640 But yet you love gatherings. 29:34.400 --> 29:38.620 Because I'm an asshole, but I like other assholes. 29:38.760 --> 29:40.700 Or really smart people. 29:40.700 --> 29:47.620 So it's nice to get a bunch of smart people together and know that, all right, these guys are intelligent, you can have an intelligent conversation. 29:47.800 --> 29:51.260 So you're not just going to go to a barbecue and watch your friends set themselves on fire. 29:51.260 --> 29:53.560 Well, you might watch your friends set themselves on fire. 29:53.560 --> 29:54.840 You haven't been to our meetings yet. 29:54.840 --> 29:58.440 Yeah, but at the same time, you might get something coded too. 29:59.140 --> 30:01.800 For us, I think it was entirely attendance. 30:01.800 --> 30:05.060 You know, venue was initially a little bit of a challenge, but not much. 30:05.060 --> 30:10.300 I think the biggest challenge we had initially was turning 5 people into 10, into 15. 30:10.480 --> 30:13.760 And to be completely honest, it was almost all word of mouth with us. 30:13.760 --> 30:19.140 I basically harassed everybody I knew who was in the community until they came. 30:19.140 --> 30:22.600 And I would call them relentlessly and say, dude, why aren't you at the meetings? 30:22.600 --> 30:23.700 Please come out. 30:23.700 --> 30:27.700 And once people would come out, they'd come out, they'd have a good time, they'd see a presentation. 30:27.700 --> 30:28.920 I'd say, bring somebody else. 30:28.920 --> 30:31.020 And eventually, that caught on. 30:31.020 --> 30:33.620 By the time we hit 20 people, we were 30 overnight. 30:33.620 --> 30:38.220 And it's been pretty consistent since as long as I send out reminder emails. 30:38.340 --> 30:41.140 So how many members was it until you hit critical mass? 30:41.420 --> 30:43.420 Until it started growing on its own? 30:43.420 --> 30:47.800 Because that's the problem we have with a lot of the groups is they can't get past that critical mass. 30:47.800 --> 30:49.220 They don't know how to get there. 30:49.220 --> 30:52.720 Three or four meetings, we were probably only like five or six people. 30:52.720 --> 30:57.020 And it was people that were, you know, mostly close friends of mine and folks that I knew. 30:57.760 --> 31:02.000 And I'd say after the third or fourth meeting, we kind of did an email blast. 31:02.000 --> 31:05.540 We , you know, sent some stuff out to everybody that had signed up at the website. 31:05.540 --> 31:08.260 We pretty much just kind of talked to everybody we knew. 31:08.260 --> 31:09.840 We said, hey, come out, come to a meeting. 31:09.840 --> 31:15.760 I think we, that was one of the first times we had like multiple presenters was our fourth, fifth meeting. 31:15.920 --> 31:18.480 And by that time, we had a few other people catch on. 31:18.480 --> 31:22.040 And again, to be honest, I was really kind of an annoying prick to everybody. 31:22.040 --> 31:24.560 I just wouldn't leave them alone until they came to the meetings. 31:24.560 --> 31:28.460 I guess eventually they just wanted me to shut up, so they came. 31:29.360 --> 31:36.360 Alright, so if you had one word to describe the personality of your DCG, what would it be? 31:36.360 --> 31:37.160 Drunk. 31:38.660 --> 31:40.460 But it's fun! 31:42.760 --> 31:43.960 Alcoholics. 31:44.060 --> 31:45.300 Alcoholics? 31:45.420 --> 31:46.810 All of the above. 31:47.340 --> 31:48.960 That's not one word. 31:49.420 --> 31:50.580 All. 31:51.560 --> 31:52.200 Thirsty. 31:52.200 --> 31:54.820 And I mean that in multiple regards. 31:55.100 --> 31:55.940 Everybody's thirsty. 31:55.940 --> 31:58.400 We're at a tequila bar, but everybody's thirsty for knowledge, too. 31:58.400 --> 32:03.760 Everybody wants something out of the meetings, and I think at least 60% of the time, they get it. 32:04.040 --> 32:04.780 Right, right. 32:04.780 --> 32:06.500 And Grifter, yours is Mormon. 32:09.500 --> 32:11.180 Actually, ours is pretty dedicated. 32:11.180 --> 32:13.880 We don't have a lot of people, but the people that show up are consistent. 32:13.880 --> 32:14.960 They come every month. 32:15.640 --> 32:18.600 Something we talked about last month, for example. 32:18.600 --> 32:21.960 They'll come back and be, hey, we talked about that last month and left off on it. 32:21.960 --> 32:22.860 Where were we? 32:22.860 --> 32:25.180 So they're pretty dedicated and persistent about it. 32:25.180 --> 32:25.820 Very cool. 32:25.820 --> 32:27.840 Grifter, what is your descriptive word? 32:28.100 --> 32:29.580 I don't really have one. 32:29.720 --> 32:31.980 I'm actually out of the... 32:32.520 --> 32:33.060 What? 32:33.060 --> 32:33.620 Yes. 32:34.360 --> 32:35.160 No. 32:38.340 --> 32:39.140 But the... 32:39.140 --> 32:42.180 Actually, I'm only one of, like, two Mormons out there. 32:42.180 --> 32:45.040 So there's two of us out of, like, the other group. 32:45.420 --> 32:46.900 We keep it gangsta. 32:47.600 --> 32:51.460 Have any of you had any problems with law enforcement with the group? 32:51.580 --> 32:52.960 Other than mall security? 32:53.040 --> 32:53.920 No. 32:53.960 --> 32:57.800 I've actually been doing my best to bring out a lot of the local law enforcement. 32:57.800 --> 33:02.640 We've got a pretty big IT security law enforcement community in Atlanta. 33:02.640 --> 33:05.280 We've got, you know, the FBI, the GBI. 33:05.280 --> 33:10.640 We've got high-tech crime units with a lot of the local federal state agencies. 33:10.680 --> 33:13.860 And I've really been trying to encourage them to come partake in the process. 33:13.860 --> 33:19.900 To be honest, out of 30 people in our group, I can guarantee that 20 of them would be absolutely... 33:21.080 --> 33:24.620 They would die to have, like, you know, a two-sided presentation. 33:24.620 --> 33:29.560 Have some, you know, local law enforcement come out and talk about the forensic process. 33:29.560 --> 33:35.080 And, you know, maybe the same thing from somebody who's unwilling to give their name at the beginning or end of their presentation. 33:35.080 --> 33:41.580 So I'm working really hard to kind of make sure that there's no discrimination, law enforcement or otherwise. 33:41.600 --> 33:46.880 You know, we want hacker kids, we want security professionals, we want cops, we want feds. 33:47.560 --> 33:52.700 Yeah, we've actually tried... I've been trying to get a couple of field agents to come down and talk about forensics. 33:53.300 --> 33:56.340 And, yeah, because we haven't had... But then again, we meet in an office. 33:56.520 --> 34:00.760 One of our members owns a business, so we actually have our own... 34:00.760 --> 34:04.020 We use their boardroom, which is sometimes a ping-pong table. 34:04.600 --> 34:10.260 And, you know, so there's no interaction with law enforcement unless we're throwing things out the window, which doesn't happen. 34:10.260 --> 34:16.120 So, but yeah, I wouldn't mind having them come down and talk to us. 34:19.720 --> 34:20.600 Okay. 34:20.640 --> 34:21.640 All right. 34:23.400 --> 34:28.660 As far as I know, we haven't had any show up, but, you know, I don't ask for IDs. 34:28.760 --> 34:29.200 Huh? 34:30.160 --> 34:31.880 It would beat the feds. 34:31.980 --> 34:35.600 Yeah, I can either confirm or deny any accusations at this particular point in time. 34:35.900 --> 34:43.660 So, Chaos, when the feds come out and the law enforcement stuff, do you have any conflicts or any issues with the other attendees? 34:43.660 --> 34:45.200 I don't think so. 34:45.200 --> 34:47.680 And I've asked on multiple occasions. 34:47.680 --> 34:55.340 And to be honest, I honestly think that the significant majority of our group would really prefer that we do have some local law enforcement come out. 34:55.340 --> 35:02.080 Again, I think most of the people that come to our meetings are, if they're not in the InfoSec community, they'd like to be. 35:02.240 --> 35:08.240 You know, they're really trying to get into security, you know, from one angle or another. 35:08.240 --> 35:11.420 But the bottom line is, I think everybody would like that involvement. 35:11.420 --> 35:14.240 They'd like that perspective in the meetings as well, you know. 35:14.240 --> 35:17.760 We talk about security as much as insecurity, if not more. 35:17.760 --> 35:22.960 But , you know, there's no real... there's no difference between the two, so... 35:22.960 --> 35:24.000 What did you say? 35:24.120 --> 35:26.020 I said, because it's sexy. 35:26.140 --> 35:28.880 Information security is so sexy. 35:29.720 --> 35:31.400 Grifter, that's just you, buddy. 35:31.400 --> 35:32.740 No, but, thanks. 35:32.740 --> 35:51.220 I honestly believe that, I know, I haven't like taken a poll of the members or anything, but I honestly believe there would be a lot less discussion if there was an openly fed at the meetings, you know. 35:51.220 --> 35:54.460 There would be a lot less discussion about some of the things we talk about. 35:55.640 --> 35:58.080 Whereas I'd be happy to see a little bit of it. 35:58.240 --> 36:02.980 Partially because I'd like to see the group exposed, both sides being exposed to one another. 36:03.180 --> 36:16.920 Because where a lot of the problems with law enforcement seem to stem from is, all of a sudden, whatever agency, or state, local, federal, whatever, suddenly says, oh my god, there's this hacker group that just popped up on radar in our backyard. 36:16.920 --> 36:17.700 Who are these guys? 36:17.700 --> 36:18.300 What are they doing? 36:18.300 --> 36:19.460 We need to get in there. 36:19.740 --> 36:24.340 Whereas if we invite them down, that's an easy way of saying, look, we're not up to anything. 36:24.460 --> 36:26.160 You're welcome to come hang out at the meetings. 36:26.920 --> 36:32.720 See, look, real live hackers, they're not scary, they're not plotting violent overthrow of the government. 36:33.080 --> 36:41.160 And on top of that, it also shows some of the guys that show up that, see, law enforcement, they put their pants on one leg at a time, just like the rest of us. 36:41.880 --> 36:46.900 In fact, last time I talked to an FBI agent, we sat around commiserating about our bosses. 36:47.340 --> 36:51.620 The only difference is when he gets into work in the morning, he puts his badge and his gun in his desk. 36:52.140 --> 36:53.800 And I don't. 36:53.800 --> 36:56.220 So kind of the same lifestyles. 36:57.180 --> 36:58.120 Don't get me wrong. 36:58.120 --> 36:59.900 I mean, I think it would be really interesting. 37:00.020 --> 37:11.860 I just, I feel that a lot of the discussion we do have would be, we either wouldn't have the same discussions or the discussions wouldn't be as complete as they are now. 37:11.860 --> 37:14.360 I wouldn't recommend it every meeting, you know. 37:14.720 --> 37:18.940 I mean, I think the bottom line is, hey, what would this conference be if we didn't have Feds here? 37:18.940 --> 37:19.440 You know what I mean? 37:19.440 --> 37:23.280 It does something to the energy and the atmosphere and I think it also encourages... 37:23.280 --> 37:26.240 But we play spot the Fed because they're not out in the open. 37:26.600 --> 37:33.320 Inviting them in and saying, hey, here's your local Fed, let's talk about all this stuff, it's a completely different atmosphere. 37:33.320 --> 37:36.740 We play spot the Fed because they don't want us to know they're here. 37:36.740 --> 37:40.500 Yes, we know because we're not stupid, but they're too stupid to realize that. 37:43.660 --> 37:44.840 Yes, ma'am. 37:47.640 --> 37:48.280 Me? 38:04.040 --> 38:06.220 Oh, no, no, I completely understand that. 38:06.220 --> 38:09.600 And like I said, it would be very interesting to have them there. 38:09.940 --> 38:19.860 Okay, so what she said was that it would be good if a Fed came and presented and then have basically a counter-argument presented, working like the opposite... 38:20.640 --> 38:22.500 Did I understand that correctly? 38:29.200 --> 38:38.160 Right, so what she's saying is, you know, you have a Fed come in, do a presentation, and then the next meeting, you discuss in the meeting, you know, what was talked about. 38:38.400 --> 38:40.700 So that it's less pressure on those people. 38:40.700 --> 38:48.800 And I agree, on a one-off basis, I think it would be great to have, you know, somebody from law enforcement come in, do a presentation. 38:48.960 --> 38:58.600 But if they're there and they're out all the time, the overall discussion, meeting to meeting, I think would be a lot different than what it is now. 38:58.600 --> 39:01.480 And I think that would hinder a lot of the discussions that we have. 39:01.480 --> 39:07.140 Don't get me wrong, I think it would be really cool, just not on a regular basis, not like every single month. 39:07.140 --> 39:10.880 Yeah, no, on a regular basis, you know, because, I mean, it's kind of getting scary. 39:11.020 --> 39:16.160 You know, things like the DMCA, Patriot Act, or Patriot 2 now, you know. 39:16.260 --> 39:18.780 The whole reverse engineering thing with the... 39:18.780 --> 39:25.080 Yeah , exactly, the fact that things that really, frankly, shouldn't be illegal, have become, such as reverse engineering. 39:25.280 --> 39:33.340 Yeah, I could see it stifling innovation a little bit, where it's like, okay, this guy's friendly enough, but do I really want to show him how I hacked the firmware on this particular piece of software? 39:33.340 --> 39:35.760 Because he might just turn around and bring a hammer down on me. 39:35.760 --> 39:44.060 You know, so, yeah, I definitely wouldn't recommend having them on a regular basis, but it's always good to have them come in, maybe for a one-off type thing. 39:44.120 --> 39:46.320 Because it's interesting to see, you know, what are they doing? 39:46.600 --> 39:49.420 You know, we'll show them what we're doing, if they'll show us what they're doing. 39:50.040 --> 39:53.540 And, you know, like I said, I have 30, 40 people show up every month. 39:53.540 --> 39:56.340 I don't know if any one of them is a Fed or not. 39:57.380 --> 40:04.080 My group makes fun of me, because I do a standard disclaimer at the beginning of every meeting, saying, everything we're talking about is hypothetical. 40:04.080 --> 40:06.680 Everything we're showing here are things that we do on our own networks. 40:06.680 --> 40:10.860 This is not anything where we're not taking out anyone else, we're not doing anything illegal. 40:10.860 --> 40:13.020 All of this is just for our own entertainment. 40:13.200 --> 40:18.340 And I say that, you know, and everybody makes fun of me, but it's like, you know, I don't know who these people are. 40:18.380 --> 40:21.480 I mean, I don't ask for IDs, I don't ask where they work. 40:21.480 --> 40:23.320 Some of them I know, some of them I don't. 40:23.320 --> 40:25.080 So, you know, it's... 40:26.060 --> 40:35.320 Okay, well, this leads us into a fairly good discussion of, we're not just a US-based organization anymore. 40:35.540 --> 40:41.200 I mean, like Noit said, we've got... how many outside of the country do we have, Michelle? 40:41.840 --> 40:47.900 Like 15, 20 groups all over the world, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. 40:48.220 --> 40:55.060 I mean, to hold groups there, you know, you're under a lot of pressure and a lot of legal and political pressure. 40:55.080 --> 40:58.000 Do you guys ever consider yourselves lucky? 40:58.020 --> 41:00.480 Does your group ever talk about things like that? 41:00.480 --> 41:02.380 And do you utilize that freedom? 41:02.380 --> 41:05.540 Ours does, and we do consider ourselves lucky. 41:05.540 --> 41:14.620 In fact, I correspond with a guy in Tehran from time to time, just because I'm sort of fascinated with the, you know, wow, what's it like running a hacker meeting in Tehran? 41:15.160 --> 41:20.160 I mean, this is a place that's, you know, we complain about things getting repressive here. 41:20.160 --> 41:29.880 There are a hundred times further down the road than we are at the moment, you know, where, I mean, being a hacker in Iran can still get you executed. 41:30.020 --> 41:33.080 So it's kind of got a different edge to it, you know? 41:33.420 --> 41:38.500 And, you know, I like interacting with the... I talk to the Malaysia guys all the time. 41:38.840 --> 41:45.920 And it's interesting to see the different backgrounds, because, like, for example, a lot of these places that are hosting these meetings aren't first world countries. 41:46.800 --> 41:54.800 So it's interesting to see these guys have to do some sort of real, real hardcore hacking when they're working on projects, because these dudes got to hustle. 41:54.800 --> 41:57.260 They don't just whip out the credit card and buy the parts kit. 41:57.540 --> 42:08.040 They got to go dig through the junkyard and find the old abandoned APC to get the big piece of metal off that they wanted and, you know, happen to stumble across the satellite receiver while they're at it and, you know. 42:08.220 --> 42:15.480 So it's actually kind of almost more hardcore, because these guys have really got to hustle to get their projects together. 42:15.480 --> 42:19.300 They don't have a radio shack on the corner they can go down to and get gear at or fries. 42:19.960 --> 42:22.380 So , you know, I think we're pretty lucky. 42:22.380 --> 42:29.560 Well, I'd say, you know, everybody sitting in this room is lucky, because they get to come to DEF CON, the actual conference. 42:31.720 --> 42:40.600 There are emails that come across the different DEF CON lists that are always like, you know, when is DEF CON coming to Australia? 42:40.600 --> 42:42.620 When is DEF CON coming to Singapore? 42:42.620 --> 42:45.040 When is DEF CON coming here, there or the other place? 42:45.540 --> 42:48.560 DEF CON is in Las Vegas and you're all here in Las Vegas. 42:48.740 --> 42:52.140 So these guys connect to DEF CON through these groups. 42:52.400 --> 42:59.760 And it's like if DEF CON can bring a little bit of that to them, then, I mean, we're not doing too bad. 43:00.600 --> 43:01.900 Anything else, guys? 43:02.480 --> 43:03.340 I'll be honest. 43:03.340 --> 43:05.460 I think we probably take it for granted most of the time. 43:05.460 --> 43:06.860 And I think you've got some excellent points. 43:06.860 --> 43:10.300 You know, I think it's something we all have to consider, like you said. 43:10.600 --> 43:12.260 We're lucky to be here and be able to do this. 43:12.260 --> 43:21.040 And I think, you know, one of the things that I would like to see, especially from our own local group, from the Atlanta group, is more interaction with the other D.C. 43:21.040 --> 43:21.760 groups. 43:21.800 --> 43:24.360 Not just in the U.S., but worldwide. 43:24.360 --> 43:29.540 I think there's probably a lot that we could do and organize by working with one another. 43:29.760 --> 43:31.260 What that is, I don't really have any idea. 43:31.260 --> 43:32.740 But it seems like there'd be a lot. 43:32.740 --> 43:36.200 So I'd like to see some of that communication between D.C. 43:36.200 --> 43:38.400 groups because I think we would all benefit from it. 43:38.400 --> 43:41.180 And, you know, then regardless of whether we're the D.C. 43:41.180 --> 43:55.260 group that's got five regular members or 30 regular members, everybody would feel like they're part of a bigger regular meeting when you're interacting with, you know, the 303 group and the 206 group, you know, on a regular basis. 43:55.460 --> 43:56.420 Right. 43:56.560 --> 43:57.140 All right. 43:57.140 --> 43:59.680 Are there any other questions out from the audience yet? 43:59.920 --> 44:00.740 All right. 44:00.740 --> 44:04.200 So what's the most impressive thing you've ever learned at one of your meetings? 44:11.230 --> 44:13.030 Corfidio is great tequila. 44:19.040 --> 44:19.960 Wow. 44:19.960 --> 44:23.660 That my friends are smarter than I am. 44:24.940 --> 44:26.820 You know, that's pretty impressive. 44:26.820 --> 44:28.560 That I have friends. 44:29.320 --> 44:44.300 Actually, I think one of the most impressive things I've learned is, I think one of the most impressive things I've learned is we have a guy who, Crash, who is constantly messing with the WRT54G Linksys wireless router firmware. 44:44.560 --> 44:50.960 And I've seen that guy just do some pretty amazing stuff where first he was building nodes. 44:51.040 --> 44:53.180 Now he's got them, like, meshed. 44:53.180 --> 44:56.020 So that's pretty impressive because I don't do a lot of firmware stuff. 44:56.020 --> 44:58.020 So I'm kind of fascinated by that. 44:58.020 --> 44:59.000 Very cool. 45:00.240 --> 45:05.600 You know, I say in jest that, you know, the most interesting thing I learned was that my friends are smarter than I am. 45:05.600 --> 45:07.340 But I honestly mean that. 45:07.980 --> 45:19.980 I think that, I don't know, it's just kind of nice to know that there are people out there who are brilliant, who will sit down and listen to one another and, you know, get some things done. 45:19.980 --> 45:31.420 So , I mean, that's the most interesting thing to me, is that people will come together and just throw out an idea and can make that happen. 45:31.420 --> 45:36.200 That their brains are capable of just taking somebody's whim and making it a reality. 45:36.380 --> 45:47.700 Yeah, likewise, I think the most impressive thing I've learned is that there are 29 other people who want to come out once a month and talk about security and watch presentations and talk about hacking links as routers. 45:47.700 --> 45:50.280 That's kind of cool to me. 45:50.280 --> 45:51.180 Very cool. 45:51.220 --> 45:53.340 Well, thanks for coming to the talk. 45:53.380 --> 45:56.520 These guys will be around for the rest of the weekend. 45:56.520 --> 45:57.860 Thanks for your questions. 45:57.860 --> 45:59.780 I've got two books to give away. 46:01.420 --> 46:14.820 Also, I've got two copies of Aggressive Network Self-Defense, a book that, again, my friends are smarter than I am, put together a group of friends that we all put together this book on strikeback technology. 46:15.440 --> 46:20.460 Some of us will be signing it right after this at the Breakpoint Books table. 46:20.740 --> 46:26.160 Johnny Long, who's standing over here about to come up on stage, will be over there shortly after his talk to do it. 46:27.220 --> 46:29.500 I don't know how I want to give these away. 46:29.500 --> 46:32.540 Does someone have a weird accent? 46:33.900 --> 46:38.480 Yeah, I guess we can give it to this guy here who's as cool as his hat is. 46:39.140 --> 46:40.700 That's the best hat, man. 46:58.360 --> 46:59.440 Thanks, man. 46:59.720 --> 47:00.640 See you later. 47:00.640 --> 47:01.480 Thanks a lot.