[00:15.320 --> 00:18.440] So, my name is Fred Benenson. Can you hear me alright? [00:19.340 --> 00:23.140] No? Louder? Closer? Closer? Is that closer? [00:24.020 --> 00:26.880] Hello? Hello? Okay. Sorry. [00:27.260 --> 00:32.080] So, my name is Fred Benenson. I just graduated NYU in May, [00:32.080 --> 00:34.040] where I started a free culture club. [00:34.280 --> 00:37.200] We'll be talking about free culture, the organization, in a bit. [00:37.200 --> 00:39.860] But I'm working for Creative Commons over the summer, [00:39.860 --> 00:42.300] and I'm going to be heading back to New York in a bit. [00:42.300 --> 00:48.300] But I've been interested in kind of open source, free software, [00:49.180 --> 00:54.100] everything in terms from hacking to, I don't know, graphic design [00:54.100 --> 00:56.720] since high school when I was reading 2600 and stuff, [00:56.720 --> 00:58.740] and that kind of what got me into it. [00:58.740 --> 01:01.040] But, I don't know. Here's Elizabeth. [01:02.140 --> 01:04.340] Hey, everybody. My name's Elizabeth Stark. [01:04.400 --> 01:07.360] Firstly, I'm kind of losing my voice, so please forgive me, [01:07.360 --> 01:09.020] or if you can't hear me, let me know. [01:09.020 --> 01:13.200] I am a current law student at Harvard Law School, [01:13.200 --> 01:17.860] who apparently needs to check up on their SSL connections. [01:18.480 --> 01:25.280] But I'm also extremely interested in the issues surrounding law, culture, and technology. [01:25.280 --> 01:27.840] I'm kind of a culture junkie myself. [01:28.640 --> 01:33.960] I went to Brown University, and I'm helping out FreeCulture.org. [01:33.960 --> 01:37.040] I am looking to start a chapter at my school next year, [01:37.040 --> 01:40.280] but currently doing a lot of work with the organization, [01:40.280 --> 01:41.740] and representing them here. [01:43.440 --> 01:47.480] All right. So, we came up with this idea to give a speech here [01:47.480 --> 01:52.240] because we wanted to kind of bring FreeCulture to another community, [01:52.240 --> 01:58.980] and we see DEF CON as a kind of great community of like-minded technology folk. [02:00.280 --> 02:03.980] So, let's get started about what FreeCulture actually means. [02:03.980 --> 02:07.440] First of all, this is not in particular order, [02:07.440 --> 02:11.780] but it's a book written by Lawrence Lessig, famous law professor from Harvard. [02:13.000 --> 02:14.800] I'm sorry, he taught at Yale. [02:15.040 --> 02:18.120] He went to Yale, taught at Harvard, now he teaches at Stanford. [02:18.180 --> 02:19.740] He also runs Creative Commons. [02:20.600 --> 02:22.680] So, he's written a couple books. [02:22.980 --> 02:24.900] He's working on another one called Code, [02:24.900 --> 02:28.060] but his most famous one is called FreeCulture. [02:29.060 --> 02:34.340] FreeCulture also means the student movement that we're participating in, [02:35.020 --> 02:41.200] and it all started from a lawsuit at Swarthmore. [02:41.380 --> 02:42.980] But at first we'd like to clarify, though, [02:42.980 --> 02:46.840] we do not claim to be the entire quote-unquote FreeCulture movement. [02:46.980 --> 02:49.340] We are one student organization within the movement [02:49.340 --> 02:54.720] that is composed of professors, academics, artists, technologists, [02:54.720 --> 02:57.160] all different types of people that are interested in the issues [02:57.160 --> 03:00.260] relating, say, to copyleft, to FreeCulture, [03:00.260 --> 03:02.680] not as in free beer, but more like free trade. [03:03.320 --> 03:04.980] And we are a part of that movement. [03:04.980 --> 03:08.120] Sometimes we are accused of claiming that we created the movement. [03:08.200 --> 03:09.680] No, that's not really the case. [03:09.680 --> 03:11.760] We're here representing FreeCulture.org, [03:11.760 --> 03:13.020] which you can see up on the site. [03:13.020 --> 03:15.020] If you want more information, kind of dig through there. [03:15.100 --> 03:16.860] But hopefully we'll give you some here. [03:17.540 --> 03:20.480] I'm going to describe how it kind of came about, [03:20.480 --> 03:22.340] what college students were first involved in it, [03:22.340 --> 03:24.180] because it's actually kind of an interesting story. [03:25.840 --> 03:29.000] I'm going to quote from an article on motherjones.com [03:29.000 --> 03:35.100] about two students at Swarthmore College named Luke and Nelson. [03:36.320 --> 03:38.340] Here, I'll read from the article. [03:38.340 --> 03:40.120] The adventure began in spring 2003 [03:40.120 --> 03:42.280] when a hacker broke into dbold's computer system [03:42.280 --> 03:45.480] and under 15,000 internal emails. [03:45.500 --> 03:48.700] In them, dbold employees fret over the voting machine's vulnerability [03:48.700 --> 03:52.280] to hackers and their alarming habit of going on the fritz. [03:52.280 --> 03:55.780] I need some answers, one employee wrote from Florida, [03:55.780 --> 03:57.600] regarding the 2000 recount. [03:58.720 --> 04:03.880] Precinct 216 gave Al Gore a minus 16,022 votes when it was uploaded. [04:03.880 --> 04:05.420] Will somebody please explain this to me [04:05.420 --> 04:08.260] so I have the information to give to the auditor [04:08.260 --> 04:10.200] instead of standing there looking dumb? [04:10.200 --> 04:14.080] That's the text in the memos that were published online. [04:14.340 --> 04:15.560] So it was a big deal, [04:15.560 --> 04:20.840] because these memos kind of exposed a glaring flaw in our voting process. [04:20.840 --> 04:26.100] For all the insanity that went on during the Bush vs. Gore election in 2000, [04:26.100 --> 04:30.460] it was a really big deal to kind of think that the voting machines were broken. [04:30.460 --> 04:34.440] I mean, who knows what could have happened if anybody established anything. [04:34.440 --> 04:37.900] So dbold was responsible for these voting machines that went on the fritz. [04:37.900 --> 04:40.600] The memos got left open for the technically minded [04:40.600 --> 04:44.340] in an open FTP directory with no password. [04:44.580 --> 04:46.880] Enough people downloaded it and started passing it around [04:46.880 --> 04:49.080] that it became kind of like buzz on the internet. [04:49.080 --> 04:51.380] Luke and Nelson at Swarthmore picked up on it [04:51.380 --> 04:54.840] because they were familiar with the movement and that kind of thing. [04:54.840 --> 04:56.800] They put it on their website. [04:57.000 --> 04:58.120] So did Derek. [04:58.620 --> 05:00.060] Yeah, so did Derek. [05:00.140 --> 05:03.220] And everyone who was posting on their website, [05:03.220 --> 05:06.880] obviously dbold freaks out and starts sending cease and desist letters. [05:06.880 --> 05:09.500] And the cease and desist letters were really interesting [05:09.500 --> 05:14.740] because they weren't trade secrets cease and desist letters. [05:14.740 --> 05:17.300] They were copyright infringement cease and desist letters, [05:17.300 --> 05:21.060] which is pretty much claiming that the internal memos from dbold [05:21.060 --> 05:24.420] had original art that they were trying to claim copyright on. [05:24.420 --> 05:27.540] And by posting it on a website, you're infringing on the copyright. [05:27.540 --> 05:31.920] It's kind of a big difference between copying CDs and publishing memos. [05:31.940 --> 05:35.420] But as we know, large content companies, [05:35.420 --> 05:38.480] they basically would send cease and desist letters to people [05:38.480 --> 05:41.520] even if they don't have a valid copyright argument [05:41.520 --> 05:43.020] because they want to scare people away. [05:43.020 --> 05:46.420] And this is pretty much the argument in this situation. [05:46.420 --> 05:48.960] These were college kids, other ISPs. [05:48.960 --> 05:50.740] When they first sent the letter to Swarthmore, [05:50.740 --> 05:52.500] they immediately took it down. [05:53.160 --> 05:58.480] Swarthmore freaked out, as any university or college would probably freak out. [05:58.480 --> 06:00.560] They contacted the students and took it down. [06:00.700 --> 06:04.520] Luke and Nelson kind of bit their lip and played by their game for a bit [06:04.520 --> 06:07.040] but then realized that they should stand up for it. [06:07.040 --> 06:10.140] So then they posted the memos up on another site. [06:10.140 --> 06:13.860] I'm not sure where, but it was a big deal [06:13.860 --> 06:19.160] because they were kind of standing up to this big, evil Republican corporation. [06:21.540 --> 06:24.000] We're a non-partisan group, by the way. [06:24.000 --> 06:25.620] Yeah, we're a non-partisan group. [06:26.580 --> 06:29.500] It was these two kids from a liberal arts university [06:29.500 --> 06:33.520] getting threatened by a Republican corporation. [06:33.520 --> 06:35.760] It was a fascinating point. [06:35.760 --> 06:39.500] Anyway, so instead of getting sued by Diebold, [06:39.500 --> 06:41.700] what happens is that they actually sue Diebold [06:41.700 --> 06:46.380] under a provision called 512F, which Elizabeth will talk about. [06:46.800 --> 06:49.940] So as we all know, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, [06:49.940 --> 06:53.340] otherwise known as the DMCA, has a lot of provisions that we don't like. [06:53.340 --> 06:55.900] There is something written into it called 512F [06:55.900 --> 06:59.360] that this was the first case to actually test the provision [06:59.360 --> 07:04.580] where if you are accusing copyright infringement, [07:04.580 --> 07:08.800] where it is so basically obvious that this is not a case of infringement, [07:08.800 --> 07:12.420] as if you're bullying someone, which I think Diebold in this case clearly... [07:12.420 --> 07:14.240] Definitely qualified as bullying. [07:14.240 --> 07:16.580] I think a lot of other content companies are doing that as well, [07:16.580 --> 07:20.080] but you can sue under this provision. [07:20.560 --> 07:23.020] The EFF stepped in as well, [07:23.020 --> 07:27.520] and David over here testified for the EFF in the case. [07:27.520 --> 07:29.120] So we have a lot of supporters here. [07:29.200 --> 07:31.900] And they won the case. [07:32.480 --> 07:36.000] The court basically said this is an obvious fair use, [07:36.000 --> 07:37.680] and it was so obvious that they could not have thought [07:37.680 --> 07:39.480] that it was an actual copyright infringement. [07:39.480 --> 07:42.660] One of the big deals was that the information that was released [07:42.660 --> 07:45.440] was actually in the public interest. [07:45.660 --> 07:50.840] It wasn't just some trade secret like Apple's new design for the shuffle, [07:50.840 --> 07:52.660] which is questionably in the public interest. [07:52.660 --> 07:57.780] It was something that actually had to do with voting and the next president [07:57.780 --> 07:59.040] and that kind of thing. [07:59.400 --> 08:02.560] So it definitely qualified as fair use. [08:02.560 --> 08:03.820] The good news is... [08:03.820 --> 08:05.710] They got back attorney's fees and also... [08:06.240 --> 08:08.460] Right, they won the lawsuit, got back attorney's fees, [08:08.460 --> 08:11.020] and won some money for themselves, I think. [08:11.480 --> 08:14.120] So that kind of started a... [08:14.120 --> 08:16.380] It was a sensation at Swarthmore. [08:16.380 --> 08:19.660] It was such a small college in that these kids were in magazines, [08:19.660 --> 08:22.160] New York Times magazine, it was a huge deal. [08:22.220 --> 08:24.740] And they realized that there was really a demand for students [08:24.740 --> 08:28.240] who are interested in the future of copyright, [08:28.240 --> 08:30.960] online, internet technologies and everything, [08:30.960 --> 08:33.920] that there was really a demand for a political movement. [08:36.020 --> 08:39.340] During the Diebold trial, Nelson and Luke had started a group [08:39.340 --> 08:42.080] called the Swarthmore Coalition for the Digital Commons. [08:42.080 --> 08:43.500] Not so easy to say. [08:43.500 --> 08:45.060] Yeah, not so easy to say. [08:45.220 --> 08:48.720] But after garnering so much public and national attention, [08:48.720 --> 08:51.480] they decided to just rename themselves to FreeCulture.org [08:51.480 --> 08:53.840] and start a national organization. [08:54.220 --> 08:57.680] So that's kind of how the beginning of the organization worked. [08:57.680 --> 09:01.760] Nelson and Luke kind of worked hard to get it going at Swarthmore [09:01.760 --> 09:04.900] and then started up an email list and got stuff posted on Slashdot [09:04.900 --> 09:06.400] and that's how I found out about it. [09:06.400 --> 09:07.940] I'd been kind of interested. [09:07.940 --> 09:08.040] Lessig's blog as well. [09:08.040 --> 09:09.820] Yeah, Lessig's blog posted about it. [09:09.820 --> 09:12.080] Although, one thing I'd like to clarify is, [09:12.080 --> 09:15.380] as much as we definitely admire the work of Professor Lessig [09:15.380 --> 09:17.460] and we have read his books and whatnot, [09:17.460 --> 09:20.020] he is not the head of our organization. [09:20.220 --> 09:23.280] Some people have accused him of basically rounding up students [09:23.280 --> 09:25.100] to be his quote-unquote chief. [09:25.380 --> 09:26.120] That is not what we are. [09:26.120 --> 09:27.260] This is pretty far from the truth. [09:27.260 --> 09:30.660] And he consistently denies that he has anything to do [09:30.660 --> 09:33.760] with kind of our big decision-making and that kind of thing. [09:33.760 --> 09:38.920] I mean, we named our club after his book. [09:38.920 --> 09:41.720] It's an important document as far as we're concerned, [09:41.720 --> 09:44.720] but there is a lot of difference between Lawrence Lessig and Free Culture. [09:44.720 --> 09:46.280] So just a minor point. [09:46.280 --> 09:49.900] But our goal is to try to make it as student-oriented as possible [09:49.900 --> 09:55.640] and try to keep our board of directors, when we decide on one, [09:55.640 --> 10:01.380] as kind of young and hip and in with the college and university crowd as possible. [10:01.820 --> 10:03.100] And grad school. [10:03.100 --> 10:04.260] And grad school. [10:04.540 --> 10:05.760] Well, university. [10:06.880 --> 10:10.420] So basically this email list starts going around in the, [10:10.420 --> 10:14.320] I guess it's the summer of 2004 and I get on it [10:14.320 --> 10:17.960] and I was interested in doing stuff at NYU [10:17.960 --> 10:20.440] because I pulled an April Fool's prank. [10:20.440 --> 10:24.320] It was a poster from the RIAA saying, [10:24.320 --> 10:28.220] trade in your MP3s and we'll give you iTunes credits. [10:28.460 --> 10:32.540] It was this really elaborate prank and we put up posters everywhere [10:32.540 --> 10:36.380] and people really responded to it and I kind of realized then [10:36.380 --> 10:38.380] that students are interested in this. [10:38.380 --> 10:41.680] This is a topic that people are talking about and arguing about. [10:41.680 --> 10:46.500] And it was actually at the top of all the lawsuits [10:46.500 --> 10:48.280] going against college students for file sharing. [10:48.280 --> 10:52.680] So I coordinated, I got something started at NYU [10:53.200 --> 10:54.900] and kind of went from there. [10:54.900 --> 10:56.320] We're now a club at NYU. [10:57.100 --> 10:59.820] There's an umbrella organization called FreeCulture.org [10:59.820 --> 11:03.060] which kind of helps manage everything. [11:03.060 --> 11:06.240] And Elizabeth and I are in the core committee [11:06.240 --> 11:08.120] and we kind of work from there. [11:08.120 --> 11:10.080] And then we also have a main discuss list [11:10.080 --> 11:14.600] that people kind of post links and argue on and that kind of thing. [11:14.600 --> 11:18.040] And I highly encourage you to join it because it's a very interesting list [11:18.040 --> 11:21.420] with a lot of kind of up-to-date stuff on it. [11:21.560 --> 11:24.800] And we currently have 13 chapters across the country [11:24.800 --> 11:28.920] and firstly we have countless students from other schools [11:29.720 --> 11:32.100] who are interested, who are trying to start up chapters, [11:32.100 --> 11:36.180] who participate in the discussions and the meetings that we have. [11:36.180 --> 11:38.720] And we also have a lot of international interest, [11:38.720 --> 11:41.520] especially from, for example, the UK. [11:41.520 --> 11:44.960] I think somebody just started FreeCulture.org.uk [11:45.520 --> 11:49.980] and they're working on a project out of, I think, where is it? [11:50.520 --> 11:51.960] I'm not sure. [11:52.000 --> 11:54.460] And we also have people in South America. [11:54.680 --> 11:58.280] As some of you may know, South America is extremely interested in, [11:58.280 --> 11:59.940] for example, in Brazil and Argentina, [11:59.940 --> 12:01.780] the free software movement and free culture movement. [12:01.780 --> 12:04.960] So we have a bunch of people interested from there. [12:05.120 --> 12:07.860] So as opposed to explaining kind of our origins, [12:07.860 --> 12:09.480] let's get a little bit more specific. [12:09.480 --> 12:12.260] We see ourselves as do-it-yourself politics. [12:12.260 --> 12:14.340] I mean, that's really the nature of a grassroots organization [12:14.340 --> 12:17.580] is that you kind of identify a problem you have with society [12:17.580 --> 12:20.420] or policy or law and you kind of go from there. [12:20.420 --> 12:23.260] And our main goal is to reform copyright law [12:23.260 --> 12:28.060] and kind of pave the way for sensible technology. [12:28.360 --> 12:30.300] And to educate people about the alternative [12:30.300 --> 12:33.460] and how we can work toward a greater public domain [12:33.460 --> 12:34.920] and freedom of information. [12:35.080 --> 12:36.840] And as students, we're a concerned party. [12:36.840 --> 12:38.680] We're worried that governments, corporations, [12:38.680 --> 12:40.540] and even individuals are making bad choices [12:40.540 --> 12:42.700] about how this stuff is happening. [12:42.700 --> 12:45.460] And these choices threaten to stagnate future progress [12:45.460 --> 12:50.380] and innovation in ways that we haven't really known before [12:50.380 --> 12:52.260] or we won't even ever know. [12:53.600 --> 12:55.420] So basically, we came to DEF CON [12:55.420 --> 12:58.100] because we think hackers should care about free culture. [12:58.120 --> 13:00.800] And we see kind of our goals as an organization [13:00.800 --> 13:04.620] very similar to a lot of the sentiments in the hacker community. [13:04.620 --> 13:08.780] And one of the biggest things that hackers tout [13:08.780 --> 13:11.240] is their right to be curious and explore the technology [13:11.240 --> 13:13.480] that we're using or that they're using. [13:13.480 --> 13:17.920] And we feel that as a main tenet of culture and technology. [13:17.920 --> 13:22.540] So where hackers mainly explore code and systems [13:22.540 --> 13:25.360] and that kind of thing, we like to encourage the idea [13:25.360 --> 13:29.300] of exploring culture and taking and using culture [13:29.300 --> 13:31.440] in similar ways as a hacker. [13:31.440 --> 13:31.680] And code. [13:31.680 --> 13:32.320] And code. [13:34.140 --> 13:36.280] So from that point on, I guess we're going to talk about [13:36.280 --> 13:39.940] some examples of what we consider culture hacking. [13:40.680 --> 13:43.900] People taking bits of culture and remixing them [13:43.900 --> 13:46.640] and reusing them in ways that they were originally unintended. [13:46.840 --> 13:50.100] And to that end, we have a lot of media that we're going to show [13:50.100 --> 13:52.380] and entertaining stuff from the history [13:52.380 --> 13:55.280] of what we like to call culture hacking. [13:55.560 --> 13:57.620] First, I'm going to... [13:57.620 --> 14:00.000] Bear with me if you guys feel like this is too close [14:00.000 --> 14:02.540] to an art history presentation. [14:02.540 --> 14:05.020] But hey, I don't think a lot of other people are talking [14:05.020 --> 14:07.000] about art history at DEF CON. [14:07.380 --> 14:10.180] Here we go. [14:10.200 --> 14:11.160] Get ready. [14:13.400 --> 14:14.440] Fade in. [14:14.520 --> 14:15.300] Oh, yeah. [14:16.660 --> 14:19.880] Okay, so some of you may be familiar with this image. [14:19.880 --> 14:21.360] Some of you may not be. [14:22.160 --> 14:26.380] As far as I know, this is one of the first blatant uses [14:26.380 --> 14:30.740] of a remix in Western art. [14:30.740 --> 14:33.420] And this is by an artist named Marcel Duchamp. [14:33.420 --> 14:36.180] This is actually a... Oops. I'm sorry. [14:37.740 --> 14:39.360] Picasso's getting feisty. [14:39.360 --> 14:43.260] Okay, so Marcel Duchamp did this in the early 1900s. [14:43.380 --> 14:47.660] He was a prolific artist dabbling in a lot of different genres. [14:47.660 --> 14:52.760] But this was a postcard remake of the Mona Lisa. [14:52.760 --> 14:56.060] And it looks huge now, but it's actually incredibly tiny. [14:56.060 --> 15:02.140] And he basically drew a mustache on her and wrote L-H-O-O-Q at the bottom. [15:02.140 --> 15:05.360] And when pronounced phonetically in French, that means she's got a... [15:05.360 --> 15:06.340] There you go. [15:07.040 --> 15:10.660] And when pronounced phonetically, that means she's got a hot ass, right? [15:10.660 --> 15:11.360] A nice ass. [15:11.360 --> 15:12.540] A nice ass. [15:13.440 --> 15:17.260] So this is one of my favorite pieces of work, art, [15:17.260 --> 15:22.360] because it ties in so many ideas that were just coming of age [15:22.360 --> 15:24.180] in the early 1900s. [15:24.180 --> 15:27.660] The idea that art is getting whittled down to postcard size. [15:27.660 --> 15:30.900] And this would be something you'd send one of your friends from the Louvre, [15:30.900 --> 15:31.820] and that kind of thing. [15:31.820 --> 15:35.280] But it was Duchamp kind of mocking this, [15:35.280 --> 15:37.340] and kind of coming up and saying that, [15:37.340 --> 15:38.600] well, maybe this is art too. [15:38.600 --> 15:42.540] And so, you know, even though he just drew a mustache on her, [15:42.540 --> 15:43.920] it became a famous piece of art. [15:43.920 --> 15:47.920] And he was widely recognized as being brilliant for this. [15:48.160 --> 15:50.180] And let's clarify something. [15:50.440 --> 15:53.980] When you said this is one of the first remixes in modern art, [15:53.980 --> 15:57.260] I think we take the position that almost all art and all culture [15:57.260 --> 15:59.540] is derivative in some way or another. [15:59.540 --> 16:01.760] I guess I meant it in a literal remix sense, [16:01.760 --> 16:04.840] is that this is exactly, this is a sample, [16:04.840 --> 16:06.760] in its most literal sense. [16:06.900 --> 16:12.080] And before this, my personal opinion is that most music remixes itself [16:12.080 --> 16:13.420] on a metaphorical level. [16:13.420 --> 16:16.240] You're always referencing what Beethoven did, or Mozart did, [16:16.240 --> 16:17.320] and that kind of thing. [16:18.020 --> 16:20.900] So anyway, Duchamp did some more cool stuff. [16:20.900 --> 16:22.480] This is pushing it a little bit farther. [16:22.480 --> 16:27.660] This is a urinal he took from a public metro station, I think, in Paris, [16:27.660 --> 16:30.040] and basically wrote Armut on it, [16:30.040 --> 16:33.220] which was one of his pseudonyms that he released art under, [16:33.220 --> 16:34.420] and put it on display. [16:34.420 --> 16:37.160] And he got it into a museum or gallery, I think, [16:37.160 --> 16:38.900] and it was a sensation. [16:38.900 --> 16:40.420] It blew people's minds in Paris. [16:40.420 --> 16:44.500] People were so angry and excited. [16:44.500 --> 16:45.800] How could a urinal be art? [16:45.800 --> 16:49.520] Yeah, yeah, it was just on the tip of everyone's tongue [16:49.520 --> 16:51.560] in the art scene in the early 1900s. [16:51.560 --> 16:54.480] And I think recently, I can't remember who said it, [16:54.480 --> 16:57.420] but this was voted the most influential piece of modern art [16:57.420 --> 16:59.700] in the 20th century. [16:59.740 --> 17:01.000] And, you know, it's a urinal, [17:01.000 --> 17:04.580] but it's the idea of appropriating something that's already been created. [17:04.920 --> 17:08.760] And Duchamp was one of the first artists to do this. [17:09.840 --> 17:11.620] And our position is, [17:11.620 --> 17:15.700] what if copyright laws were as strict as they are now, back then? [17:15.700 --> 17:18.120] I mean, would Duchamp really have gotten away with this? [17:18.120 --> 17:20.600] I mean, obviously the Mona Lisa's in the public domain, [17:20.600 --> 17:24.120] but who knows about the manufacturer of the urinal? [17:24.120 --> 17:25.520] They probably could have sued him. [17:26.280 --> 17:28.780] Next up, I'm not sure... [17:28.780 --> 17:30.520] I think the original design of the art... [17:30.520 --> 17:32.380] Well, that's for another one to debate. [17:33.900 --> 17:35.060] So this is a shovel. [17:35.060 --> 17:37.040] This is another Duchamp piece. [17:37.300 --> 17:38.560] It's a snow shovel. [17:38.800 --> 17:40.260] He got it at a museum. [17:40.940 --> 17:42.100] I think it's pretty cool. [17:42.720 --> 17:45.300] And this is one of the most famous pieces of modern art. [17:45.300 --> 17:46.580] I'm sure you all recognize. [17:46.880 --> 17:47.880] This is Andy Warhol. [17:47.880 --> 17:50.280] I think he did this in the middle of the 60s. [17:50.280 --> 17:54.240] He pretty much just took a picture of a Campbell's soup can, [17:54.240 --> 17:56.400] got it into a silkscreen format, [17:56.400 --> 17:59.460] and made a ton of silkscreen canvases [17:59.460 --> 18:01.840] with the Campbell's soup can logo on it. [18:01.840 --> 18:03.220] This was a huge deal because [18:05.020 --> 18:08.060] people just loved the idea that he was representing [18:11.120 --> 18:13.140] consumer products as art. [18:13.140 --> 18:15.660] And it was extraordinarily controversial, [18:15.660 --> 18:16.980] just like Duchamp was. [18:16.980 --> 18:19.700] And people couldn't understand why [18:19.700 --> 18:22.780] somebody would put up a soup can and call it art. [18:23.080 --> 18:27.060] But it's lasted over time, [18:27.060 --> 18:30.300] and everyone kind of accepts it as an important part of art. [18:30.300 --> 18:32.040] Campbell's, at the time, didn't object. [18:32.040 --> 18:33.460] They were like, this is great. [18:33.460 --> 18:35.720] Somebody's found a novel way to use our soup can. [18:35.720 --> 18:36.920] Yeah, they didn't sue. [18:36.920 --> 18:39.400] Instead, they found it as promotion for their product. [18:39.400 --> 18:40.500] It's like free advertising. [18:40.500 --> 18:42.440] They thought it was great marketing. [18:42.700 --> 18:44.940] I kind of have a funny story to tell about this, [18:44.940 --> 18:46.960] but I'll save it for the end. [18:47.620 --> 18:49.480] This is another example of Warhol's art. [18:49.480 --> 18:50.380] It's a Brillo. [18:50.540 --> 18:52.240] I think these are larger than life. [18:52.240 --> 18:53.320] Yeah, he scaled these up, [18:53.320 --> 18:56.280] so it's just the idea of turning a small soap pad [18:56.280 --> 18:58.460] into a large kind of box. [18:58.460 --> 19:00.700] Just more appropriation art. [19:01.320 --> 19:02.640] More of Warhol's stuff. [19:02.640 --> 19:05.400] I mean, these are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars now. [19:05.940 --> 19:08.740] I mean, not to say that money is a good value. [19:09.140 --> 19:10.820] Here's Warhol himself. [19:10.820 --> 19:12.740] I'm sorry about the JPEG compression on that. [19:12.740 --> 19:13.540] It's ugly. [19:14.580 --> 19:16.160] More Campbell's soup can. [19:16.160 --> 19:18.120] He's just kind of going crazy with this stuff. [19:18.120 --> 19:19.620] Everyone loves it at the time. [19:20.360 --> 19:22.300] Another famous Warhol painting. [19:22.300 --> 19:24.080] This is actually interesting because he's using [19:25.500 --> 19:26.420] a celebrity's image, [19:26.420 --> 19:28.500] and there's a whole debate going on right now. [19:28.500 --> 19:30.620] It's kind of like cutting-edge copyright. [19:31.040 --> 19:32.340] I'm sorry, not copyright, [19:32.340 --> 19:34.440] but a law debate about publicity images [19:34.440 --> 19:36.180] and whether or not celebrities can kind of claim [19:36.680 --> 19:39.080] ownership of what they look like and that kind of thing. [19:39.080 --> 19:40.640] And I don't think he got permission [19:40.640 --> 19:42.900] from Marilyn Monroe from this at all. [19:42.900 --> 19:45.000] And who knows if she would have objected. [19:45.000 --> 19:46.900] I mean, blue eyeliner is kind of [19:46.900 --> 19:49.360] hard to deal with, or whatever it is. [19:49.620 --> 19:50.840] I don't think he got permission [19:50.840 --> 19:51.980] for this one either. [19:52.360 --> 19:53.540] I'm thinking no. [19:54.800 --> 19:57.320] Alright, on to Jean-Michel Basquiat. [19:57.580 --> 19:59.420] He's another influential painter [19:59.420 --> 20:00.600] of the 20th century [20:01.340 --> 20:02.360] in America. [20:02.360 --> 20:04.200] He was actually good friends with Andy Warhol. [20:04.200 --> 20:06.980] There's some great books and information about Jean-Michel. [20:06.980 --> 20:08.560] He lived in the East Village, [20:08.560 --> 20:10.900] and so I kind of picked up on his stuff. [20:11.200 --> 20:12.600] If you look in the bottom [20:12.600 --> 20:14.120] right-hand corner of this image, I'm sorry, [20:14.120 --> 20:16.620] the Picasso stuff, the overlay is kind of taking over, [20:16.620 --> 20:18.820] but there's a little copyright down here. [20:20.180 --> 20:20.740] Yeah. [20:21.640 --> 20:22.720] Jean-Michel was obsessed [20:22.720 --> 20:24.480] with copyright and kind of like the idea [20:24.480 --> 20:26.440] that images were copyrighted and [20:26.440 --> 20:28.480] that he could use them and kind of [20:29.240 --> 20:30.600] claim domain over them [20:30.600 --> 20:32.660] in his own paintings. So, over and [20:32.660 --> 20:34.520] over and over again, you see his use [20:34.520 --> 20:36.920] of words and [20:36.920 --> 20:39.060] mass consumer ideas [20:39.060 --> 20:40.900] put into his art as kind of an [20:41.520 --> 20:43.100] appropriation. And people at the [20:43.100 --> 20:45.180] time saw this as kind of similar [20:45.180 --> 20:47.080] to what hip-hop was doing. We were using these [20:47.080 --> 20:49.320] samples from current life [20:49.320 --> 20:51.100] and we're putting them into our art. What time was this? [20:51.100 --> 20:53.020] This was like mid-80s. [20:53.060 --> 20:55.120] Jean-Michel died in 87 at the [20:55.120 --> 20:57.500] early age of 27 from a heroin overdose. [20:58.220 --> 20:59.660] He was a real rock star. [21:00.080 --> 21:01.560] This is some more of his work. [21:02.320 --> 21:03.040] He just [21:03.040 --> 21:05.120] basically opened up books and picked [21:05.120 --> 21:06.860] out words and put them in there. He also used [21:06.860 --> 21:09.340] images. He was a prolific graffiti [21:09.340 --> 21:10.320] artist in [21:10.900 --> 21:12.360] New York City at the time. [21:13.080 --> 21:15.080] Here's a picture of him with Warhol. They were really [21:15.080 --> 21:17.100] good friends. They both kind of dug [21:17.100 --> 21:18.880] on the idea of appropriation. [21:19.680 --> 21:20.800] Some more Basquiat. [21:22.360 --> 21:23.340] Universal up there. [21:23.340 --> 21:25.140] This is one of my favorites of his. [21:25.260 --> 21:27.180] I guess he really loved movies. [21:27.220 --> 21:29.160] So, I think Universal probably [21:29.160 --> 21:31.120] didn't sue him on this or didn't even bother. [21:31.120 --> 21:32.400] He even put the trademark notice. [21:32.400 --> 21:34.560] Yeah, yeah. I mean, his infatuation [21:34.560 --> 21:36.440] with trademark and copyright is throughout [21:36.440 --> 21:37.640] all of his stuff. [21:38.880 --> 21:40.440] Who knows if he would have gotten away with [21:40.440 --> 21:42.520] this now. Alright, so that's [21:42.520 --> 21:43.940] the end of my slideshow. [21:45.680 --> 21:46.560] Okay. [21:46.580 --> 21:48.340] Before I kind of get off [21:48.340 --> 21:50.460] the art kick, I'm going to talk about [21:50.720 --> 21:52.360] a contemporary artist that's doing similar [21:52.360 --> 21:54.140] stuff in New York City named [21:54.140 --> 21:55.500] Cory Archangel. [21:56.380 --> 21:58.340] Cory does some really cool [21:58.340 --> 21:59.220] stuff with [22:00.220 --> 22:01.260] Nintendo ROMs. [22:01.260 --> 22:02.820] He pretty much reprograms [22:02.820 --> 22:05.920] Nintendo ROMs to be art. [22:06.160 --> 22:06.880] He got [22:06.880 --> 22:09.040] one of his pieces was called [22:09.040 --> 22:10.580] the Nintendo Clouds. [22:10.580 --> 22:12.680] He got it into the Whitney Biennial in [22:12.980 --> 22:14.400] 2002, I believe. [22:14.640 --> 22:17.380] It was pretty much Mario without Mario [22:17.380 --> 22:19.880] or anything except for the clouds. [22:20.080 --> 22:21.440] I had a picture of it. [22:21.440 --> 22:22.880] Let me see if I can get it. [22:24.620 --> 22:25.280] Anyway, [22:25.280 --> 22:27.100] it was just like a Nintendo cartridge [22:27.100 --> 22:28.960] playing the clouds [22:28.960 --> 22:30.940] over and over and over again. [22:30.940 --> 22:33.100] The music was playing and it was kind of a [22:34.280 --> 22:35.380] sensation. That was all you [22:35.380 --> 22:37.480] really saw, but it was running from a real Nintendo. [22:37.480 --> 22:39.200] They had this whole set up in the [22:39.200 --> 22:41.380] Whitney where there's just a Nintendo [22:41.380 --> 22:43.080] thing sitting there. [22:43.080 --> 22:45.120] This is just a great example of contemporary [22:46.060 --> 22:48.040] appropriation art. [22:48.040 --> 22:49.560] This pretty much took the New York [22:49.560 --> 22:53.180] art scene by storm. [22:53.180 --> 22:53.880] Cory got [22:53.880 --> 22:54.940] pretty famous pretty quickly. [22:55.520 --> 22:56.860] Recently in February, [22:56.860 --> 22:58.940] he just showed [22:59.620 --> 23:01.060] this new piece of art. [23:01.060 --> 23:02.800] It's a 15-minute Mario movie where [23:02.800 --> 23:04.580] Mario goes to a rave. [23:04.900 --> 23:06.860] It's a little bit too long to play here, [23:06.860 --> 23:08.860] but he pretty much disassembled [23:08.860 --> 23:10.940] the entire Mario cartridge, [23:10.940 --> 23:12.940] reprogrammed it to himself, used all the [23:12.940 --> 23:15.220] sprites however he wanted, wrote new music. [23:15.220 --> 23:17.060] It's an incredible use of appropriation art. [23:17.060 --> 23:18.920] I'm going to show it now and [23:18.920 --> 23:20.960] hope the music's not too obnoxious for [23:20.960 --> 23:21.600] you guys. [23:24.940 --> 23:26.240] Oh, that doesn't look good. [23:26.440 --> 23:27.240] Okay. [23:28.960 --> 23:30.820] So this is the intro. I'm going to fast-forward [23:31.020 --> 23:31.760] a little bit. [23:36.650 --> 23:37.430] So a lot of [23:37.430 --> 23:39.230] the themes in this piece of art is that [23:40.250 --> 23:41.050] Mario and [23:41.470 --> 23:43.310] his images are kind of functions [23:43.310 --> 23:45.710] of our collective memory right now. [23:45.730 --> 23:47.650] And they're all deteriorating. [23:47.650 --> 23:49.130] So Cory's idea is to kind of [23:50.190 --> 23:51.370] rejuvenate them. So a lot [23:51.370 --> 23:52.430] of themes are kind of like [23:54.210 --> 23:55.010] this deterioration [23:55.010 --> 23:56.950] and that these memories [23:56.950 --> 23:58.930] are getting lost. So he uses a lot of [23:58.930 --> 24:00.950] kind of corruption of the actual [24:00.950 --> 24:02.630] image. And it's not that he's [24:02.630 --> 24:04.870] not a good programmer or [24:04.870 --> 24:07.010] didn't do it properly. It's that he wants to kind of [24:07.530 --> 24:08.970] reinforce the idea that we're losing [24:08.970 --> 24:10.790] the idea of Mario to [24:10.790 --> 24:12.610] nostalgia and that kind of thing. [24:12.950 --> 24:14.910] So I'm going to fast-forward a little bit. [24:16.630 --> 24:17.130] This is [24:17.130 --> 24:18.870] Mario falling. He's just done some [24:18.870 --> 24:21.070] really neat stuff. I mean, this is like pushing [24:21.070 --> 24:22.770] the Nintendo to its [24:22.770 --> 24:23.670] limits. [24:24.930 --> 24:25.090] And [24:27.730 --> 24:28.730] there's a whole narrative [24:28.730 --> 24:30.890] going on here. This is like Mario looking around [24:30.890 --> 24:31.830] for stuff. [24:33.070 --> 24:34.890] You know, this is kind of a bad part [24:34.890 --> 24:35.710] for him. [24:36.730 --> 24:38.450] Is this like a bad trip or something? [24:38.450 --> 24:40.390] Yeah, yeah. I mean, you'll see. [24:40.690 --> 24:43.230] He's about to take a mushroom, I think. [24:45.110 --> 24:46.750] So he's going to this rave [24:46.750 --> 24:48.730] and he's on [24:48.730 --> 24:50.890] his way there. Eventually he gets [24:50.890 --> 24:52.710] there. He's got to go through a lot of castles [24:52.710 --> 24:54.590] and there's a lot of jokes about the princess [24:54.590 --> 24:56.870] because as anyone who's played Mario [24:56.870 --> 24:59.210] knows, the princess is always [24:59.210 --> 25:00.710] the objective. [25:02.470 --> 25:02.910] So [25:02.910 --> 25:04.730] it gets pretty intense. And this is all just [25:04.730 --> 25:06.890] with 8602 [25:07.430 --> 25:08.670] assembly, which [25:08.670 --> 25:10.970] looks like the most nasty assembly you've ever [25:10.970 --> 25:13.270] seen. We included the code. [25:13.290 --> 25:14.910] Yeah, if you get the CD [25:14.910 --> 25:16.790] that Defcon hands out, you can download [25:16.790 --> 25:18.870] the ROM and do whatever you want with it. [25:20.890 --> 25:22.690] So this is pretty intense. [25:24.550 --> 25:24.950] Basically [25:24.950 --> 25:27.130] when he gets to the rave, it's just Pong. [25:33.910 --> 25:37.130] So it's kind of a meta video game. [25:37.570 --> 25:38.210] Right, right. [25:38.210 --> 25:39.710] It's kind of a rave scene. [25:39.770 --> 25:41.630] The original video game, right? [25:42.470 --> 25:44.330] So, Cory kind of [25:44.330 --> 25:46.370] operates in a copyright [25:46.370 --> 25:48.950] vacuum. I mean, I've talked to him a lot about this stuff. [25:49.110 --> 25:50.370] I mean, he just kind of [25:50.370 --> 25:52.490] wants to make art using Mario [25:52.490 --> 25:54.270] and that kind of thing. And it's questionable [25:54.270 --> 25:56.230] whether or not Nintendo cares. I mean, [25:56.230 --> 25:58.210] as far as I know, there's no official [25:58.210 --> 26:00.310] comment from Nintendo. He has not gotten [26:00.310 --> 26:02.290] any letters. There are no cease and desist [26:02.290 --> 26:04.130] letters yet. I mean, in theory, it could be the Walmart [26:04.130 --> 26:06.730] as key in promoting Super Mario Bros. [26:06.810 --> 26:08.350] Right. But the real question [26:08.350 --> 26:10.390] is whether or not Cory's work falls under fair [26:10.390 --> 26:11.790] use. And [26:12.430 --> 26:14.570] I believe it does. I mean, this is transformation. [26:14.570 --> 26:16.390] Fair use is a whole other big debate. [26:17.030 --> 26:18.290] I think they could have a decent [26:18.290 --> 26:20.070] case. Yeah, I think Cory could have it. [26:20.150 --> 26:21.610] Nintendo might have it. [26:21.790 --> 26:24.070] The fact that he's using [26:24.630 --> 26:26.050] Mario's image so blatantly [26:26.050 --> 26:27.890] is really a big deal. [26:27.890 --> 26:29.630] Especially the clouds. I think the clouds [26:29.630 --> 26:31.270] are now one of the fair use. [26:31.370 --> 26:33.770] So, Cory's done a lot of other really neat [26:34.290 --> 26:35.990] hacks with video game cartridges. [26:35.990 --> 26:37.970] One of his more abstract [26:37.970 --> 26:39.650] ones is hacking [26:40.630 --> 26:41.890] a Tetris cartridge so that [26:41.890 --> 26:44.110] the timer, the internal timer [26:44.110 --> 26:46.170] of the Nintendo slows it [26:46.170 --> 26:48.090] down so it's like super slow Tetris. [26:48.090 --> 26:50.690] And it takes like 10 minutes to do one line. [26:50.690 --> 26:52.050] So you can always win. [26:52.050 --> 26:54.090] So you can always win, yeah. [26:54.610 --> 26:56.270] So check him out. We'll [26:56.270 --> 26:58.930] have some links up that we can send you guys. [26:59.490 --> 26:59.950] But [26:59.950 --> 27:02.010] just a kind of contemporary example [27:02.010 --> 27:04.650] of appropriation art. [27:11.920 --> 27:14.400] Okay, so next we have a video [27:14.400 --> 27:15.900] from Matt Bosch who [27:15.900 --> 27:18.180] Elizabeth will talk about. [27:18.660 --> 27:20.000] It's very similar kind of [27:20.000 --> 27:21.940] video game art. Right, we're not [27:21.940 --> 27:24.100] solely advocating for video game art. [27:24.100 --> 27:25.880] I think these are two examples [27:25.880 --> 27:27.440] of combining [27:28.580 --> 27:30.140] technology and culture [27:30.140 --> 27:32.000] which is something that we very much [27:32.000 --> 27:34.260] support at our organization. [27:34.260 --> 27:35.920] I mean, we are [27:35.920 --> 27:37.980] talking about art and culture but I must say the main [27:37.980 --> 27:39.960] focus of a lot of the issues that we [27:39.960 --> 27:42.540] discuss is surrounding technology. [27:44.680 --> 27:45.200] So [27:45.200 --> 27:46.480] this is entitled Persistent [27:46.480 --> 27:48.580] Artifacts by Matt Bosch. [27:48.580 --> 27:50.480] It's currently in the New York Video Festival. [27:50.980 --> 27:52.440] And here he's mixing a childhood [27:52.440 --> 27:54.400] video with his first video game [27:54.400 --> 27:56.320] called Adventure on the Atari [27:56.320 --> 27:58.260] 2600. I don't know if any of you [27:58.260 --> 28:00.220] played it. Woohoo! [28:01.700 --> 28:02.620] He identifies [28:02.620 --> 28:04.160] that it's the shell of his [28:04.820 --> 28:06.460] past identity as an [28:06.460 --> 28:08.400] adolescent computer geek. He's actually [28:08.400 --> 28:10.680] probably now a 20-something geek. [28:10.680 --> 28:12.620] And he [28:12.620 --> 28:14.680] portrays his experience and interaction [28:16.040 --> 28:16.820] like when [28:16.820 --> 28:18.840] he was a child playing the video and this is [28:18.840 --> 28:20.680] his interpretation. Sorry, playing the game [28:21.340 --> 28:22.720] of it. And you can probably [28:22.720 --> 28:24.740] see now his image coming [28:24.740 --> 28:27.300] through from a family home video. [28:28.500 --> 28:30.500] This is an homage to the early [28:30.500 --> 28:32.920] lone Atari developers, as he put it, [28:32.920 --> 28:34.300] who created the game that shaped [28:34.300 --> 28:36.800] many of our childhoods, but many [28:36.800 --> 28:38.540] of whom remain unknown [28:38.540 --> 28:40.700] as a result. Apparently the author [28:40.700 --> 28:42.740] of Adventure, [28:42.740 --> 28:45.240] named Warren Robinett, [28:45.240 --> 28:46.300] refused to be forgotten [28:46.300 --> 28:48.440] and he actually implemented one of the first [28:48.440 --> 28:51.160] Easter eggs in this game. [28:51.500 --> 28:52.720] Because Atari would not [28:52.720 --> 28:55.320] credit the developers for the game, [28:55.320 --> 28:56.760] he hid his name in a secret room [28:56.760 --> 28:58.660] in the game, creating the [28:58.660 --> 29:00.620] first Easter egg. You can find [29:00.620 --> 29:02.640] the hidden signature by using a certain item [29:02.640 --> 29:05.420] in a specific room. Unfortunately, I don't have the details. [29:05.480 --> 29:06.940] I can try to find out. [29:07.740 --> 29:08.860] And subsequently [29:08.860 --> 29:10.960] he did leave Atari, but I guess [29:10.960 --> 29:13.700] his legacy still remains in the game. [29:13.980 --> 29:15.220] And I think this is also [29:15.220 --> 29:17.180] in a way Matt's reaction to [29:18.000 --> 29:18.560] how [29:18.560 --> 29:21.080] corporations were not giving the developers credit [29:21.080 --> 29:22.660] for their work and they were kind of [29:22.660 --> 29:25.140] taking the hands out of the creators [29:25.820 --> 29:26.380] and [29:26.940 --> 29:29.320] he wanted to kind of memorialize [29:29.320 --> 29:31.120] that as well in this [29:31.120 --> 29:33.000] work and reflect upon his [29:33.000 --> 29:35.820] experiences in doing so. [29:35.820 --> 29:37.440] So, you know, [29:37.440 --> 29:39.620] we're kind of showing all these examples of art [29:39.620 --> 29:41.500] and that kind of thing. I mean, there are entire [29:41.500 --> 29:43.200] genres of music [29:43.760 --> 29:45.700] that rely on appropriation and [29:45.700 --> 29:47.640] sampling. I mean, hip-hop is one [29:47.640 --> 29:49.840] great example. Electronic music, [29:49.840 --> 29:50.960] I mean, there's kind of this great [29:51.940 --> 29:53.760] brotherhood going on with electronic music [29:53.760 --> 29:55.640] where you can remix anything and get [29:55.640 --> 29:57.600] away with it and nobody's going to sue you for copyright [29:57.600 --> 29:59.020] infringement. And it's... [30:00.200 --> 30:01.500] It depends which [30:02.160 --> 30:03.560] fringes you get to. I mean, if you get [30:03.560 --> 30:05.340] more poppy, it's probably more likely [30:05.340 --> 30:07.600] that you'll get sued for copyright infringement. [30:07.600 --> 30:09.780] But there's a great wealth of [30:09.780 --> 30:11.120] electronic music that [30:11.120 --> 30:13.180] can be remixed and [30:13.180 --> 30:15.600] nobody will kind of think twice about it. [30:15.600 --> 30:17.380] First, the genre of hip-hop [30:17.380 --> 30:19.220] would probably not exist today [30:19.220 --> 30:21.580] if people were [30:21.580 --> 30:23.640] not allowed to sample and there were [30:23.640 --> 30:25.300] such perhaps... Right. [30:25.300 --> 30:27.940] There's a great book called Copyrights [30:27.940 --> 30:29.200] and Copywrongs by Stephen [30:30.260 --> 30:31.660] Vitahanathan. Who's a huge [30:31.660 --> 30:33.900] fan of hip-hop, by the way. Right. He's a huge fan of hip-hop [30:33.900 --> 30:35.780] and he writes this kind of history [30:35.780 --> 30:37.680] of copyright in the context of [30:37.680 --> 30:39.860] how it kind of gives birth to [30:39.860 --> 30:41.740] hip-hop or lack [30:41.740 --> 30:42.580] thereof. [30:44.260 --> 30:45.700] How it might have prevented the birth [30:45.700 --> 30:47.560] of hip-hop. I mean, hip-hop is predicated [30:47.560 --> 30:49.940] upon sampling others' work, right? [30:49.940 --> 30:51.660] Right. So, [30:53.260 --> 30:54.060] basically, [30:55.000 --> 30:55.640] what does [30:55.640 --> 30:57.760] culture and what does free culture [30:57.760 --> 30:59.460] have to say to the hacker community and [30:59.460 --> 31:01.600] why have we showed you all this art [31:01.600 --> 31:03.020] and that kind of thing? [31:03.460 --> 31:05.540] The big thing that [31:05.540 --> 31:07.440] we see, the big important part [31:07.440 --> 31:07.940] is that [31:08.640 --> 31:09.280] we [31:11.160 --> 31:13.860] see culture as technology. [31:13.860 --> 31:14.580] We see [31:15.340 --> 31:17.500] technology as an important part [31:17.500 --> 31:18.660] of our world, but [31:19.800 --> 31:21.460] one that hackers [31:21.460 --> 31:23.560] are fighting to kind of keep [31:23.560 --> 31:25.060] open and... [31:26.500 --> 31:27.520] Oh, I'm [31:27.520 --> 31:29.500] sorry. We're gonna get music [31:29.500 --> 31:30.160] up. [31:32.140 --> 31:33.480] Okay, so we're gonna play some [31:33.480 --> 31:35.020] music that's kind of indicative of [31:36.320 --> 31:37.540] remix culture and that kind [31:37.540 --> 31:39.640] of stuff in the background so you guys don't get too bored. [31:39.640 --> 31:40.360] I'm sorry. [31:42.600 --> 31:43.300] So, [31:43.300 --> 31:45.340] hackers fight to kind of keep [31:45.340 --> 31:47.460] technology open and [31:48.420 --> 31:49.260] investigable and [31:49.260 --> 31:52.040] they can go look and poke around and that kind of thing. [31:53.700 --> 31:55.500] our fear is that maybe people [31:55.500 --> 31:57.040] don't really think about how [31:57.820 --> 31:59.300] culture works that way and [31:59.300 --> 32:01.340] you need to have culture open and kind of [32:01.340 --> 32:03.600] you can play around with and that [32:03.600 --> 32:04.500] kind of thing. [32:06.220 --> 32:07.800] This is an example. [32:07.800 --> 32:09.200] This music in the background is the [32:09.200 --> 32:11.100] Avalanches. They've sampled [32:11.100 --> 32:13.500] over a thousand samples to make this record. [32:13.500 --> 32:15.460] It's a great record called Since I Left You. [32:16.500 --> 32:17.320] You should pick it up. [32:17.320 --> 32:18.840] Essentially, it is a collage [32:19.320 --> 32:20.640] of samples. [32:21.000 --> 32:23.620] In fact, they did clear, from what I understand, [32:23.620 --> 32:25.140] even a Madonna sample, [32:25.140 --> 32:27.320] which is really hard to find. [32:28.500 --> 32:29.880] Madonna cannot let you [32:29.880 --> 32:30.760] clear a sample. [32:30.940 --> 32:34.220] Part of the problem is the way the current system works. [32:34.440 --> 32:35.520] It was extremely difficult [32:35.520 --> 32:37.740] to clear all the samples. I know a lot of [32:38.380 --> 32:39.520] releases that are delayed [32:39.520 --> 32:41.200] or maybe they'll have to take out tracks [32:41.880 --> 32:43.440] because it is just not possible [32:43.440 --> 32:45.380] to do so and we feel that [32:45.380 --> 32:47.480] we really enjoy this kind of music. [32:47.480 --> 32:49.400] No, it may never be on the top 40. [32:49.400 --> 32:51.620] That's fine. We're not advocating [32:51.620 --> 32:54.200] that it should be on MTV 24-7. [32:54.200 --> 32:54.920] Right. [32:55.320 --> 32:57.800] A lot of people kind of think that [32:57.800 --> 32:58.900] well, why don't you go [32:59.440 --> 33:01.840] make music and just do whatever you want [33:01.840 --> 33:03.920] and kind of not worry about copyright. [33:03.920 --> 33:05.980] What if you just did that? [33:08.140 --> 33:09.820] Why does copyright have to be [33:09.820 --> 33:10.800] such a big deal? [33:11.340 --> 33:13.600] Our fear as an organization is that [33:13.600 --> 33:15.620] it's really going to sway a lot of people [33:15.620 --> 33:17.460] who don't really want to be [33:17.460 --> 33:19.660] illegal rebels and don't really want to [33:19.660 --> 33:21.780] break the law to make music. [33:21.780 --> 33:23.700] Some people are not as [33:23.700 --> 33:25.920] radical as you might be [33:25.920 --> 33:27.860] or we might be at Defcon and that kind of thing [33:27.860 --> 33:29.760] and really just want to play by the rules [33:29.760 --> 33:31.660] but if everything's kind of locked down [33:31.660 --> 33:33.640] and there's this increasing threat [33:33.640 --> 33:35.660] of copyright lawsuits [33:35.660 --> 33:37.760] then they're going to be much less [33:37.760 --> 33:39.720] encouraged to make new art. [33:39.720 --> 33:41.580] And the hacker community really [33:41.580 --> 33:43.440] thrives on the underground and [33:43.440 --> 33:45.800] it's really kind of a big part [33:45.800 --> 33:47.360] of the idea is to remain [33:47.360 --> 33:49.120] kind of under the surface but [33:49.720 --> 33:51.000] to the extent that [33:51.000 --> 33:53.300] you can do that in culture, it's not [33:53.300 --> 33:54.720] as rewarding because [33:55.640 --> 33:57.560] culture is meant to be seen and heard. [33:57.560 --> 33:59.540] You can post a mix anonymously online [33:59.540 --> 34:01.200] and people can listen to it but there's [34:01.200 --> 34:03.660] always an issue of identification. [34:03.700 --> 34:05.300] Right, there's always going to be this problem of [34:05.300 --> 34:07.660] how do you disseminate culture properly [34:07.660 --> 34:09.000] and with the [34:09.000 --> 34:10.940] really good hacks and that kind of thing [34:10.940 --> 34:13.160] they're under the surface [34:13.160 --> 34:15.160] and you might not even ever know about them [34:15.160 --> 34:17.740] and that's why they're good. That's not how culture works. [34:17.740 --> 34:19.360] So the worry [34:19.360 --> 34:21.160] is that if you just want to [34:21.160 --> 34:22.980] keep kind of working in the underground [34:22.980 --> 34:25.160] and we totally like underground [34:25.160 --> 34:26.580] and obscure music and that kind of thing [34:26.580 --> 34:28.780] but if you want to keep avoiding the [34:28.780 --> 34:31.120] spotlight because you're afraid of a lawsuit [34:31.120 --> 34:33.280] that kind of thing, it's going to [34:33.280 --> 34:34.980] really kind of short change your [34:34.980 --> 34:37.240] mission as an artist and our goal [34:37.240 --> 34:38.580] as an organization is to really [34:39.160 --> 34:40.620] encourage and foster the [34:41.160 --> 34:42.700] environment in college campuses [34:42.700 --> 34:44.840] and hopefully on a larger scale [34:44.840 --> 34:46.840] in the American public where [34:46.840 --> 34:48.780] remixing and hacking [34:48.780 --> 34:50.320] are video games and that kind of thing [34:50.320 --> 34:52.520] is looked upon as [34:52.520 --> 34:54.700] just the next step. It's just another tool [34:54.700 --> 34:56.760] in the artist's kind of briefcase [34:56.760 --> 34:59.720] of being in that kind of thing. [35:00.580 --> 35:03.220] So, I guess I wanted to kind of [35:03.220 --> 35:04.340] pimp [35:04.340 --> 35:06.460] or talk about CCMixter [35:06.460 --> 35:08.560] which is a kind of site that [35:08.560 --> 35:10.460] Creative Commons is running. [35:10.460 --> 35:12.460] If any of you are musicians or artists [35:12.460 --> 35:14.240] or anybody who just likes to tinker with music [35:15.260 --> 35:16.620] CCMixter is kind of a cool site [35:16.620 --> 35:18.260] where you can go and set up an account [35:18.260 --> 35:20.560] and download samples that are all CC-licensed [35:20.560 --> 35:22.120] and you can do whatever you want with them [35:22.120 --> 35:24.520] and put them back up and it's kind of like [35:24.740 --> 35:26.460] a social networking. It's like the [35:26.460 --> 35:28.820] Flickr but for music, I mean, hopefully. [35:29.420 --> 35:30.580] The music I'm playing now [35:30.580 --> 35:32.280] Let's Take It Back by Ashwan. [35:32.340 --> 35:34.480] Ashwan's a great artist on there. He's done like tons of [35:34.480 --> 35:36.840] tracks. His stuff's always awesome. [35:37.160 --> 35:38.440] He made a track about the London [35:38.440 --> 35:40.420] bombings maybe two or three hours [35:40.420 --> 35:42.820] after they happened and uploaded it onto Mixter. [35:42.820 --> 35:43.980] It's just a really great [35:45.260 --> 35:46.260] little environment [35:46.260 --> 35:48.120] where people can kind of [35:48.120 --> 35:50.420] remix and not worry [35:50.420 --> 35:51.960] about the copyright stuff. [35:52.180 --> 35:54.440] That's one of the possible [35:54.440 --> 35:55.520] alternatives. [35:56.160 --> 35:58.320] Do you know what license he's using? [35:58.320 --> 35:59.820] I think he primarily uses [36:00.700 --> 36:02.280] non-commercial attribution [36:02.280 --> 36:04.340] which means you can remix his stuff. [36:04.820 --> 36:06.180] But in this case, if you're planning on [36:06.180 --> 36:07.400] selling his music, [36:07.400 --> 36:10.040] since you were here for the last presentation, [36:10.040 --> 36:13.000] you're probably not okay to sell it. [36:13.000 --> 36:14.780] So it's definitely a compromise. [36:15.400 --> 36:16.480] It's a better [36:16.480 --> 36:17.840] way because he gets to make [36:17.840 --> 36:19.700] awesome music, put it online, [36:19.700 --> 36:22.220] thousands of people, if not hundreds of [36:22.220 --> 36:24.480] thousands of people download it every week [36:24.480 --> 36:26.280] and it's kind of [36:26.280 --> 36:28.200] the ideal that we want to [36:28.200 --> 36:29.560] see happen on college campuses [36:29.560 --> 36:32.220] is that people kind of sidestep these [36:32.220 --> 36:34.440] problems with copyright for the [36:34.440 --> 36:36.040] sake of creating a pool or participating [36:36.040 --> 36:38.000] in a pool of culture that's much more [36:38.460 --> 36:39.540] valuable and important [36:40.540 --> 36:42.480] because it's less regulated. [36:42.540 --> 36:44.160] And a lot of people have said, well, [36:44.160 --> 36:46.400] more culture is not necessarily better [36:46.400 --> 36:48.160] culture. And [36:48.640 --> 36:50.480] of course we would advocate for everybody [36:50.480 --> 36:52.460] to create their own works, but [36:52.460 --> 36:54.360] it's true, not everything out there, [36:54.360 --> 36:56.460] I mean there have been some internet phenomena [36:56.460 --> 36:58.200] where you have some [36:58.980 --> 36:59.860] Bulgarian guys [36:59.860 --> 37:02.720] singing, has anybody seen this video? [37:03.440 --> 37:04.020] Oh yeah, [37:05.740 --> 37:06.540] it's this kid [37:06.540 --> 37:08.700] singing, I guess [37:08.700 --> 37:10.720] it's a [37:12.360 --> 37:13.160] traditional Bulgarian [37:13.160 --> 37:14.960] song or something, but it's been remixed into [37:14.960 --> 37:16.700] techno, and it's just [37:16.700 --> 37:18.640] kind of funny and sad and weird [37:18.640 --> 37:21.000] at the same time. It just became an internet phenomenon [37:21.000 --> 37:23.240] somehow, not that we're judging it. [37:23.240 --> 37:24.840] It's up there with all your base as far as [37:24.840 --> 37:27.200] I'm concerned, but the question is [37:27.200 --> 37:28.980] whether or not that could happen. I mean, imagine [37:28.980 --> 37:30.420] the poor kid got sued for making that video [37:30.420 --> 37:32.780] when he was singing the techno remix [37:32.780 --> 37:34.220] of a traditional song. [37:34.260 --> 37:36.240] It's crazy. Our feeling is that [37:36.240 --> 37:38.420] even though there might be more culture [37:38.420 --> 37:40.260] out there with more Creative Commons licensing [37:40.260 --> 37:42.400] and that kind of thing, the kind of [37:42.400 --> 37:44.380] general way social networks work [37:44.380 --> 37:46.480] and the internet works is that the best [37:46.480 --> 37:48.220] stuff will kind of come to the top, and [37:48.220 --> 37:50.560] CCMixter among other software packages [37:50.560 --> 37:52.560] is really designed to encourage [37:52.560 --> 37:54.420] people to participate and [37:54.420 --> 37:56.380] comment and rate stuff, [37:56.380 --> 37:58.200] and it's not just like this kind of [37:58.200 --> 38:00.140] mass stuff that's kind of [38:00.140 --> 38:02.380] unrated and unjustified. [38:02.420 --> 38:04.320] You can trust your friends to recommend [38:04.320 --> 38:05.640] that kind of thing. [38:05.920 --> 38:08.200] This is Accufun who... [38:08.760 --> 38:10.120] I think they also use [38:11.020 --> 38:12.340] about 100 samples [38:12.340 --> 38:14.260] per song. Essentially what they [38:14.260 --> 38:16.480] do is they take really small snippets [38:16.480 --> 38:18.200] of music and then [38:18.200 --> 38:20.500] I'll make it louder... [38:20.500 --> 38:21.560] mix it together [38:23.300 --> 38:24.540] such to create [38:24.540 --> 38:26.580] an entire song like this. [38:26.580 --> 38:28.700] I do not know [38:28.700 --> 38:30.640] the copyright status, but they did [38:30.640 --> 38:32.280] clear the samples, but I'm thinking [38:32.280 --> 38:34.680] because they're almost non-recognizable [38:34.680 --> 38:37.060] they probably did not. [38:42.240 --> 38:43.160] We also [38:43.160 --> 38:44.660] have CC73 [38:47.720 --> 38:49.040] another artist using [38:49.140 --> 38:51.100] a lot of samples, and I'd like [38:51.100 --> 38:53.000] to say these are not mainstream artists, I mean [38:53.000 --> 38:55.020] I don't know if you've heard of a lot of these [38:55.020 --> 38:56.960] people, but they definitely [38:56.960 --> 38:59.200] are getting attention in artistic circles. [38:59.560 --> 39:01.000] And again, some people have [39:01.000 --> 39:02.840] said, well, what if you want [39:02.840 --> 39:05.200] all this culture to be mainstream? [39:05.200 --> 39:06.480] I mean, isn't the point to be [39:06.480 --> 39:08.820] underground? And if you're going [39:08.820 --> 39:11.180] to be underground, you can still do things illegally. [39:11.760 --> 39:12.600] But we feel that [39:12.600 --> 39:14.840] there's a general chilling effect in society [39:14.840 --> 39:15.800] that... [39:15.800 --> 39:19.440] Like I was saying before, the idea that [39:19.980 --> 39:21.100] the kind of bedroom [39:21.100 --> 39:22.440] rocker is going to be [39:22.960 --> 39:24.860] suppressed into not making music could be [39:24.860 --> 39:26.200] the next John [39:26.760 --> 39:28.560] Lennon or something. I mean, who knows [39:28.560 --> 39:30.960] what could happen. I mean, [39:30.960 --> 39:32.180] there's such [39:33.540 --> 39:34.900] there's such propaganda coming [39:34.900 --> 39:36.780] out of the content industry right now that [39:36.780 --> 39:39.100] downloading music is illegal. [39:39.100 --> 39:40.700] I mean, that's really the exact [39:40.700 --> 39:41.920] text of their [39:42.540 --> 39:44.720] you know, their losses. And if you go to CC [39:44.720 --> 39:46.960] Mixer, you can download a lot of legal music. [39:46.960 --> 39:48.560] As much legal music as you want. [39:48.560 --> 39:50.780] I mean, it's endless, the amount of legal music that you [39:50.780 --> 39:52.660] can download. So, our fear [39:52.660 --> 39:54.560] as an organization is that there's [39:54.560 --> 39:56.620] going to be this kind of atmosphere [39:56.620 --> 39:57.640] of [39:58.820 --> 40:00.280] actual fear that [40:00.280 --> 40:02.720] you can't listen to music [40:02.720 --> 40:04.540] that other people make [40:04.540 --> 40:06.700] and that you can't remix it and you can't [40:06.700 --> 40:07.840] reuse it. Just because [40:09.020 --> 40:10.740] a corporation kind of has enough money [40:10.740 --> 40:12.700] to send out these propaganda [40:12.700 --> 40:13.400] campaigns [40:14.180 --> 40:15.320] doesn't mean that [40:16.180 --> 40:18.420] people shouldn't be kind of doing what their [40:18.420 --> 40:20.660] artistic, you know, [40:21.580 --> 40:23.240] sentiments would lead them to, you know. [40:23.240 --> 40:24.860] And plus, there's a large distinction between [40:24.860 --> 40:26.660] what was possible, say, [40:26.660 --> 40:28.820] 20, 30 years ago and what's going [40:28.820 --> 40:30.880] on now. I mean, you know, a lot of you, I'm sure, [40:30.880 --> 40:32.440] made mixtapes when you were younger. [40:32.820 --> 40:34.760] Those are physical copies. You can only [40:34.760 --> 40:36.660] distribute them to however many people you [40:36.660 --> 40:38.460] make that copy for. [40:38.460 --> 40:40.580] 64 is the number of generations [40:40.580 --> 40:42.720] that you can make a copy of an audio tape with [40:42.720 --> 40:44.880] before it will be totally unlistenable. [40:45.000 --> 40:46.840] But, it's totally different on the internet [40:46.840 --> 40:48.740] as a copy is the [40:48.740 --> 40:50.500] exact same thing as the original. [40:51.020 --> 40:52.640] And some people may only intend to put something [40:52.640 --> 40:54.660] up on their site for their friends and family, but [40:54.660 --> 40:56.720] as we've seen with this Bulgarian [40:56.720 --> 40:58.580] techno guy, I highly doubt he wanted, like, the whole [40:58.580 --> 41:00.500] internet to see it. Things can be [41:00.500 --> 41:02.000] disseminated very widely. [41:02.860 --> 41:04.660] So, this kind of leads us [41:04.660 --> 41:05.960] to the end of our presentation. [41:06.760 --> 41:08.460] What do we want from [41:08.460 --> 41:10.500] you guys? And, like, what are we [41:10.500 --> 41:12.740] kind of talking about? What can you do to help [41:12.740 --> 41:14.720] out? That kind of thing. I guess the number [41:14.720 --> 41:16.600] one thing is to check out our website, [41:16.600 --> 41:18.500] join our email list, start talking [41:18.500 --> 41:20.680] to your friends. If you go to college, hey, [41:20.680 --> 41:22.640] start a chapter. It's really not that hard. I did it this [41:22.640 --> 41:25.160] year. Talk to some administration folk. [41:25.160 --> 41:26.680] The people at your school want to see [41:26.680 --> 41:29.020] you doing activities and that kind of thing. [41:29.020 --> 41:30.640] They really don't think that hard [41:30.640 --> 41:32.720] about the politics of your organization. [41:32.720 --> 41:34.880] I mean, it depends what university you go to, [41:34.880 --> 41:37.200] but more often than not, [41:37.200 --> 41:37.940] you could be [41:38.600 --> 41:40.700] talking about really radical [41:40.700 --> 41:42.580] stuff and just still be [41:42.580 --> 41:44.320] calling yourself some organization. [41:44.320 --> 41:45.840] They'll give you money. [41:46.080 --> 41:47.940] It's actually a really fun way to meet people [41:47.940 --> 41:50.300] and start talking. The only way [41:50.300 --> 41:52.080] we're really going to make a change is if we [41:52.080 --> 41:54.260] kind of get enough momentum as an [41:54.260 --> 41:55.520] organization ourselves [41:56.240 --> 41:58.200] and kind of start doing [41:58.200 --> 42:00.100] things, and that's with the help of you guys [42:00.100 --> 42:02.260] and your ideas. I think you did [42:02.260 --> 42:04.460] organize several events. [42:04.540 --> 42:06.420] Yeah, I mean, I did a couple events. [42:06.560 --> 42:08.380] We downloaded movies from thearchives.org [42:08.380 --> 42:10.140] and had movie screening sessions. That's just [42:10.140 --> 42:11.980] one idea. I know the guys at [42:11.980 --> 42:14.120] Swarthmore did a whole remix of The Night of the Living [42:14.120 --> 42:16.360] Dead, where it was kind of a film festival. [42:16.360 --> 42:18.160] They did some really neat stuff with that. [42:18.440 --> 42:20.160] I'm planning in the fall to bug [42:20.160 --> 42:21.980] my non-graduated [42:21.980 --> 42:23.980] friends at NYU to start a [42:24.540 --> 42:26.060] Creative Commons kind of art show. [42:26.060 --> 42:28.340] I mean, there's lots of stuff you can kind of come up [42:28.340 --> 42:30.960] with and ideas. Did you bring rock star speakers as well? [42:30.960 --> 42:31.980] No, we didn't get a chance to. [42:31.980 --> 42:34.180] Some other chapters have also brought in speakers [42:34.180 --> 42:36.380] on topics such as... Just get panels to your school. [42:36.380 --> 42:38.360] Get people talking. I mean, there's [42:38.360 --> 42:40.020] kind of a whole great [42:40.960 --> 42:42.260] opportunity in college [42:42.260 --> 42:44.160] to get political and active. [42:44.160 --> 42:45.820] And the movement, the [42:45.820 --> 42:48.080] copy left movement, and the free culture [42:48.080 --> 42:49.740] movement has yet to really [42:50.840 --> 42:51.920] totally solidify. [42:51.920 --> 42:53.920] So there's a lot of opportunity for people who [42:53.920 --> 42:56.040] might not otherwise be involved [42:56.040 --> 42:58.060] with progressive ideas and that [42:58.060 --> 43:00.040] kind of thing to get involved. And they don't [43:00.040 --> 43:02.040] have to say that they wouldn't vote for [43:02.040 --> 43:03.920] Bush. I mean, they don't have to say that they'll vote for [43:03.920 --> 43:06.160] Kerry. Right now, it's just like [43:06.160 --> 43:08.520] we want more sensible copyright laws. [43:08.520 --> 43:10.380] And I think people across all party lines [43:10.380 --> 43:12.540] can agree on that issue. I mean, I don't think it's [43:12.540 --> 43:14.440] solely restricted to one side or another [43:14.440 --> 43:16.540] of the political spectrum. One of the really big things [43:16.540 --> 43:18.400] that Lawrence Lessig stresses in his book, [43:18.400 --> 43:20.540] Free Culture, is that he advocates [43:21.400 --> 43:22.520] a common sense approach [43:22.520 --> 43:24.540] to copyright. And more often than not, [43:24.540 --> 43:26.580] when there's a lawsuit involving [43:26.860 --> 43:28.520] a teenager or a college student [43:28.520 --> 43:30.560] in copyright, common sense is [43:30.560 --> 43:32.720] really kind of thrown to the wayside. [43:32.720 --> 43:34.260] And it doesn't really take a political [43:34.260 --> 43:36.500] affiliation to realize that a lot of things [43:36.500 --> 43:38.500] that are going on with copyright lawsuits [43:38.500 --> 43:40.600] are destructive and [43:41.460 --> 43:42.580] cruel. [43:44.160 --> 43:44.880] So, [43:45.940 --> 43:46.640] yeah, [43:46.640 --> 43:48.660] one more thing before we close. I'm selling [43:48.660 --> 43:50.280] this t-shirt at the [43:50.280 --> 43:52.600] EFF booth, so if you'd like one... [43:52.600 --> 43:54.120] Come support us. Support EFF. [43:54.140 --> 43:56.560] Support EFF and support Free Culture. [43:56.560 --> 43:58.740] Go purchase one. We have mediums [43:58.740 --> 44:00.340] and larges. So, [44:00.340 --> 44:02.260] after that, I guess we can take questions [44:02.260 --> 44:04.240] or we'll talk to anybody who's interested [44:04.240 --> 44:05.640] in helping out. [44:05.680 --> 44:06.440] Yes? [44:35.700 --> 44:36.830] Well, I think we [44:37.180 --> 44:38.880] did make the point that we do believe [44:38.880 --> 44:39.840] I mean, what... [44:39.840 --> 44:42.600] What is the question? I'm sorry. [44:43.620 --> 44:45.020] It was a comment. [44:45.140 --> 44:45.840] Okay. [44:48.340 --> 44:49.340] Right. [44:54.830 --> 44:55.890] Well, I think [44:55.890 --> 44:56.990] Western music... [44:56.990 --> 44:59.190] The comment's talking about how... [44:59.190 --> 45:00.970] I'm repeating the [45:00.970 --> 45:02.230] comment. [45:02.230 --> 45:03.890] The idea is that [45:03.890 --> 45:06.150] music that we've been listening to the last [45:06.150 --> 45:08.410] 50 years is really just a synthesis [45:08.410 --> 45:10.190] of a couple kind of [45:10.190 --> 45:12.290] big... small paradigms that started [45:12.290 --> 45:14.350] off. And not even paradigms, [45:14.350 --> 45:15.950] but exact notes and [45:15.950 --> 45:18.310] pieces of music. I mean, how many rock [45:18.310 --> 45:20.210] songs from the Strokes to the Rolling [45:20.210 --> 45:22.170] Stones have the 12-bar [45:22.170 --> 45:24.970] blues or some variation thereof inside? [45:27.850 --> 45:30.330] Right. And it seems now that we have [45:30.330 --> 45:31.950] this great kind of opportunity to... [45:31.950 --> 45:34.130] He said it was triggered by electronics and technology. [45:34.130 --> 45:35.870] Oh, I'm sorry. I totally... [45:35.870 --> 45:38.210] Anyway, we have this great opportunity now to push that even [45:38.210 --> 45:39.570] farther and [45:40.510 --> 45:42.330] take the technology and [45:42.330 --> 45:43.970] make remixes to [45:43.970 --> 45:46.250] really extravagant [45:46.250 --> 45:47.490] lengths. And [45:48.590 --> 45:50.390] the fear... you know, we're afraid [45:50.390 --> 45:52.230] that that's going to kind of get clamped down on [45:52.230 --> 45:54.330] by a lot of people who [45:54.330 --> 45:56.390] kind of are living with the idea [45:56.390 --> 45:58.490] that records and CD sales [45:58.490 --> 46:00.410] are it to the bottom [46:00.410 --> 46:01.970] line of culture. And [46:03.150 --> 46:04.430] we don't feel that's the case. [46:04.430 --> 46:06.210] Actually, could I ask a question? Were you saying that we were [46:06.210 --> 46:08.310] under-emphasizing this point? Was that [46:08.310 --> 46:09.570] the issue? [46:22.220 --> 46:23.220] Well, yeah. [46:24.340 --> 46:24.980] You're saying, [46:24.980 --> 46:26.720] yeah, it's starting to happen with movies. You'll have [46:26.720 --> 46:28.260] digital video cameras. [46:35.020 --> 46:35.620] The comment [46:35.620 --> 46:37.320] was, what is happening with music [46:37.320 --> 46:39.480] in the last 50 years is now happening with video. [46:41.440 --> 46:42.100] And I think [46:42.100 --> 46:43.980] we acknowledge that. And frankly, I don't think our [46:43.980 --> 46:46.180] organization would exist or would have existed [46:46.820 --> 46:48.020] 20 or 30 years ago [46:48.020 --> 46:50.180] because it is the technology here that has enabled [46:50.700 --> 46:52.140] all this production. And now [46:52.140 --> 46:54.060] somebody can buy a digital video camera for [46:54.780 --> 46:56.140] a couple hundred dollars. It's not going to be the [46:56.140 --> 46:58.200] best one, but it is [46:58.200 --> 47:00.440] enabling creation on a [47:00.440 --> 47:02.340] grassroots level. [47:02.340 --> 47:04.180] That is definitely something we are supporting. [47:04.180 --> 47:07.040] We're kind of running out of time, so if anybody has any other [47:05.480 --> 47:07.480] quick comments... [47:07.040 --> 47:08.440] Yeah, back there. [47:10.500 --> 47:11.140] Yeah, [47:11.140 --> 47:13.120] we're big fans of Downhill Battle, or at [47:13.120 --> 47:15.040] least I am. They've been doing some really [47:15.040 --> 47:16.900] great stuff. They're coming out with some really [47:16.900 --> 47:18.980] kind of cutting-edge [47:18.980 --> 47:20.960] software that's going to let people share media [47:20.960 --> 47:23.240] and push the limits [47:23.240 --> 47:24.980] of remix culture. [47:25.400 --> 47:27.100] And I'm very excited to see [47:27.100 --> 47:28.920] what they kind of come out with. So, [47:28.920 --> 47:31.120] yeah, check out our website, then check out Downhill Battle. [47:31.180 --> 47:32.960] They're friends of ours. We actually have some [47:32.960 --> 47:35.180] shirts for sale. Yeah, contact us if you [47:35.180 --> 47:37.180] want some... Downhill Battle shirts that look kind [47:37.180 --> 47:38.920] of like the DEF CON logo, as you can see. [47:38.920 --> 47:40.040] She'll model it. [47:41.180 --> 47:43.140] Home taping is killing the [47:43.140 --> 47:45.820] music industry. Not the case. [47:46.240 --> 47:47.300] It's ironic, [47:47.300 --> 47:47.860] yes. [47:47.860 --> 47:51.420] Right, [47:51.420 --> 47:53.440] that was a real serious campaign back in the 80s [47:53.440 --> 47:54.880] from what I understand, and [47:55.540 --> 47:57.020] I think we've seen that it [47:57.020 --> 47:59.280] back then did not kill the music industry. [47:59.280 --> 48:01.460] In fact, people heard songs on mixtapes [48:01.460 --> 48:03.300] and then went out and bought things [48:03.300 --> 48:05.280] and found out about new artists that their friends [48:05.280 --> 48:06.360] were telling them about. [48:07.000 --> 48:09.400] So, if you guys go to college or want to get involved, [48:09.400 --> 48:11.340] please contact us, talk to us right [48:11.340 --> 48:13.340] afterwards. We'd love to hear from you. Or just about the general [48:13.340 --> 48:15.400] issues. We'd always love to hear your comments. [48:15.640 --> 48:17.100] It kind of starts from you guys [48:17.100 --> 48:19.680] and us, so we've got to start somewhere. [48:20.140 --> 48:20.960] So, thanks. [48:20.960 --> 48:22.800] Thank you so much for coming to hear us. [48:22.800 --> 48:23.260] Yeah.