start	end	text
3380	5500	Announcement and then we'll get the talk underway.
6620	10160	The tent has been running an hour late.
10160	13300	It is now only running a half hour late.
13320	17300	Again, the tent is now only one half hour late. Thanks.
23140	26380	The tent is running a half an hour late.
26380	29680	They were an hour behind, but they have picked it up to a half an hour.
31280	32980	So, there you go.
33400	36660	Alright, I'm supposed to get going because we're a little pressed for time.
36660	38700	So, good afternoon to all of you.
38720	42640	My name is Thomas Holt and I'm from the University of North Carolina, Charlotte.
42820	50700	I'm a criminologist by trade and my research focuses primarily on computer crime just generally
50700	53120	and computer hacking specifically.
53120	57500	I've spent the better part of the last three years examining the hacker subculture,
57500	61540	hacker social organization, and I've tried to get at it in a number of different ways.
61540	65260	I've been interviewing active hackers, I've been looking at web forums,
65260	69740	I've been at DEF CON, and one of the things that's really surprised me in all of my research
69740	71960	is the relative lack of women.
72100	74740	None of the people that I've interviewed have been female.
74940	78000	Coming to DEF CON, it was apparent there's some sort of a disparity at least
78000	80640	in terms of the population differences.
80700	86060	And looking at web forums really, really struck me because there were very few admitted women.
86560	90980	And in looking at one of the largest forums in the data sample I had assembled,
90980	92340	I saw this passage.
92340	94060	Now, this is just an excerpt from it.
94840	98820	Sure, this is just an excerpt from a forum that I was looking at.
99320	103060	And some of the names have been changed.
103060	105640	But as you read through it, you can see some interesting things.
105640	107180	The first person asks,
107180	110340	How many of you have met any girls who are hackers?
110340	113860	I've never seen some girl who knows a lot about computers and hacking.
113860	116100	Are there any girls who do this?
116100	119460	And the responses don't really suggest there are a lot of them.
119460	120320	Jiggle Billy says,
120320	122660	Unfortunately, I've not met any hacker chicks.
122660	125020	The only ones I know about exist in the movies.
125080	127460	The last one there, Goblocks,
127460	131620	I am a female hacker and I know a few other female hackers.
131620	132720	That's really it.
132720	133780	That was pretty common.
133780	136860	I only saw a handful of women maybe at most.
136860	140760	And I was looking at six web forums of a variety of populations.
140900	142320	And I thought this is really curious.
142320	144600	Why aren't there women involved in this?
144620	148140	And I thought there must be something more substantial going on.
148140	150000	My interest was even more peaked
150000	154000	when some comments were made recently by the president of Harvard.
154000	157180	Lawrence H. Summers made some comments regarding women in the sciences
157180	160920	and suggested that there are genetic differences
160920	163960	and some social factors that drive a wedge
163960	166140	between the number of women involved in the sciences
166140	167860	and the number of men.
167860	169940	We don't have exact transcripts of what he said,
169940	173620	but it was enough to really raise the ire of the academic community
173620	176220	and in some cases, people outside of it.
176220	178360	And so I thought this is really unusual.
178360	179520	What is driving this?
179520	180660	What's happening?
180660	182580	And I thought this must have some importance
182580	184920	not only for women involved in the sciences,
184920	188200	but in computer science, engineering, and hacking.
188200	191100	And I thought this really needs to be addressed.
191260	193340	And so one of the things that I started with
193340	199020	was looking at the number of women involved in academics for computer science.
199460	205140	We know that for a good period of time, from 1984 to 1995,
205140	210040	there was a drop in the number of women who were enrolled in computer science degrees.
210280	214080	Subsequently, after 1995, there's been a bit of an increase,
214080	216080	but it's still relatively small.
216080	220340	It was such a problem that many major universities began doing internal studies
220340	223020	to determine why this decline was happening
223020	226980	at MIT, at Stanford, a couple of different places.
226980	229240	And there was no specific answer found.
229240	231960	When we look at the business world,
231960	236340	one thing that we know is that women have been increasingly involved
236340	238560	in different technical occupations,
238560	244480	but they take place in very low-status, low-income technical occupations.
244480	246840	Women have increased, but they're still underrepresented
246840	249900	in computer science and engineering, etc.
249900	255860	In fact, interestingly, the way that women are dispersed in different occupations,
255860	259460	99% of all dental hygienists are women.
259460	262780	But 3 out of 10 system analysts are female.
262780	266400	1 out of every 4 computer programmers are women.
266560	268660	And there's even a gap in pay.
268660	274580	We know that women computer scientists are making 17% less than men,
274580	278620	and female computer programmers are earning 13% less.
278900	282700	And if you look at... this is just a very quick slide.
282700	285600	It gives you a real face of what's going on.
285600	292660	This is a track from 1983 to 2001 for employed computer systems analysts by sex.
292720	295440	The blue is women, the red is men.
295440	299040	So there are definitely more men involved in this occupation.
299720	301900	And I thought, this is really odd.
301900	302980	What is going on?
302980	307740	And when we look at women in the computer underground, or women in hacking,
307740	310220	it's even more apparent that there's a disparity.
310360	314460	Research tells us that the computer underground is dominated by men.
314460	319640	If you're familiar with the work of Bruce Sterling, the author of the Hacker Crackdown,
319640	321220	he made a very telling comment.
321220	324400	He said that hacking is a... let me see if I get this right...
324540	328580	a teenage male voyeur thrill power trip activity.
328660	333160	You don't find female computer intruders any more than you will find female voyeurs
333160	336980	who are obsessed with catching glimpses of men's underwear.
337540	340680	Pretty salacious comments, and you can hear pretty much the same thing
340680	343880	from Gail Thackeray, a very famous prosecutor.
343880	347940	And a few sociologists and criminologists who have looked at this issue
347940	352560	have done so very quickly, and they've made very, very cursory examinations.
352620	358200	Jordan and Taylor in 1998 suggested that the computer underground is male-dominated,
358200	362780	so much so that they consider it an important component of hacker subculture.
362800	368240	A subsequent study by a guy named Thomas suggested that hacking is a boy culture,
368240	370620	which is all about demonstrating mastery,
370620	373880	whether it's of your physical or your social environment.
374240	377300	Now, this is not to suggest that women don't hack at all.
377300	379540	There have been some famous women hackers.
379840	384140	Susan Thunder, Carmen Karasik, if I'm pronouncing that right.
384140	387420	She's been involved in some hacktivism, but that's about it.
387480	391260	Aside from that, we don't really get a lot of news on women in hacking.
391380	395360	The few journalists who have looked at this problem
395360	398740	have suggested that the number of women is increasing,
398740	401480	but they don't give us any sort of hard and fast numbers.
401820	406620	A publication by Ackerman in 2001 said they're more involved in white hat hacking
406620	409900	and security interests, but that's about it.
409940	414280	The few women who actually discuss issues of gender and hacking
414280	419600	have suggested that there's quite a bit of harassment and difficulty that women face.
419600	422460	A researcher by the name of Gil Boa in 1996
422460	426160	described a great deal of difficulty that she faced.
426160	428880	Sagan suggested that entry-level female hackers
428880	431780	experienced a great deal of harassment.
431780	437940	And a study from Ipsos-Reid suggested that the population of 18 to 24-year-old women
437940	444420	experienced the most heavy experiences of being hit on or harassed while online.
444860	451140	So, generally speaking, we know that women are involved in academic computer science careers,
451140	452760	but it's relatively small.
452760	456840	We know they're in the workforce, but they face some difficulties and some differences.
456900	460040	And we know that they are very, very absent from the underground.
460220	463300	So, why is this? I know I've only got 15 minutes,
463300	466920	but does anybody have an opinion, maybe, as to why there's this disparity?
467780	470000	You in the way back, you've had your hand up for a while.
474630	476830	Yes, this is primarily based on the U.S.
477590	478750	Yes, you, sir.
482660	485420	Okay, the harassment and difficulty.
486240	489200	Okay, good. Anyone else?
490340	491060	Yes?
492160	493760	Men are threatened?
494060	496680	Okay, well.
496680	497860	Yes, ma'am?
499060	500100	Okay.
500100	502940	These are very interesting questions, yes.
507990	510350	Okay. Others?
512170	514410	Okay, well.
516130	519170	Sure, she just said that she's been shunned by other women.
519170	521810	It's not something that women are expected to do.
521810	523250	Would you say that's a pretty good synopsis?
523410	524930	Yes, and then I've got to go.
527690	529650	So, that's why women don't hack.
546020	548540	Okay, so it's easier to harass women online.
548540	550640	Maybe that's part of why women stay out of it.
550640	555700	Well, since I don't have much time, let me skip ahead to some of the theoretical propositions
555700	558180	that have been given by different researchers.
558180	562060	The first is this notion of psychosexual theories.
562060	568320	Essentially, the idea here is that hacking is a way for boys and young men to sublimate others,
568320	571640	to dominate others, and impose their will on them.
571680	577720	And, in a sense, basically, if you can't penetrate another person, why not penetrate a system?
577720	579660	I know that sounds really harsh.
579700	585920	But, an attorney for a hacker named Ehud Tenenbaum, if you're familiar with that guy,
585920	589800	suggested that, in the past, we used to boast about the girls we have.
589800	593500	Nowadays, kids boast about their ability to hack into different systems.
593940	599860	And this notion has been furthered by the stereotype of the socially inept young male hacker.
599860	605260	Someone who can't relate to others, but can get along very, very well with hardware and software.
605260	609680	And this is even furthered by some very esoteric notions about cyberspace,
609680	613700	or the matrix being a womb-like environment, a feminine place.
613700	618100	But it gets a little abstract from there, and it's a little difficult to explain.
618100	620200	So, let me just move on to the next one.
620200	622320	Gender role socialization.
622420	625660	This is something that some of you have already talked about.
625680	630940	It's basically the idea that there are shaping relationships between technology and gender.
630980	635780	Technology has a way of affecting the way that we relate to one another.
635780	641120	The argument here is basically that technology, especially computer technology,
641120	643540	has some very male characteristics.
643840	649420	It requires self-confidence, assertiveness, analytical thinking, very cold logic.
649420	653000	Whereas this is in direct contrast to more feminine traits.
653000	656340	The ideas of nurturing, caring, protection, emotion.
656340	658600	If you're familiar with the work of Sherry Turkle at all,
658600	662040	she talks about hard mastery versus soft mastery.
662040	667900	Hard mastery is the direct imposition of your will on something else through planned attacks.
667900	671840	Whereas soft mastery is more of a free-form kind of interaction,
671840	675400	more something of a conversation than a monologue.
675400	678260	But this is just one sort of argument.
678500	682740	And as a result of these gender role characteristics,
682740	686120	it affects the way that we are pushed into different things.
686120	691160	Because of the way that we view technology, that has a way of keeping women out.
691160	696040	Women who do decide to go into these careers can face a great deal of difficulty.
696040	700620	They might face discrimination, they might face a number of different challenges.
700620	705760	In fact, this is furthered by the notion of cyberspace as a wild west frontier.
705760	710680	If you've read Gibson or Barlow, the discussion of hacking as a place,
710680	714920	or pardon me, cyberspace as a place for the cowboy, the outlaw.
714920	719180	Women don't really have a strong place within cyberspace in that regard.
719180	725360	And another researcher named Susan Herring has suggested that the language of cyberspace is gendered.
725360	731260	It's very male-oriented. It focuses on conflict, on adversarial forms of communication.
731260	735840	And if you don't use these sorts of language, if you don't use these linguistic traits,
735840	738580	then you are not going to be treated in the same way.
738580	742240	You're going to be shunned, you're going to be criticized, or what have you.
742740	745780	And there are also structural arguments that are made.
745780	750720	Essentially, women have not had the same opportunities as men in the workforce.
750720	756560	Women's participation in labor has been based solely on the opportunities made available to them.
756560	759040	For instance, when you think of World War II,
759040	763520	women were needed, well, anyone was needed to fill roles working in factories.
763520	767280	Women took on this role, but once the boys returned back home,
767280	772380	women were expected to go back into the home, become homemakers, what have you.
772440	776700	So, women's roles have been affected by technology,
776700	781200	and structurally, women are not necessarily able to get good-paying jobs.
781200	782940	Their opportunities have been limited,
782940	787100	and it's further affected by being tied back into some of the gender role arguments
787640	791120	that it's hard to advance in your career if you have to raise a family,
791120	793480	if you have to have kids, that kind of thing.
793480	794960	It makes things difficult.
795400	798960	So, these are just some of the theories that have been postulated.
799420	800980	What do you think of them?
800980	804680	Do any of these make sense? Do they jive with your personal experiences?
804680	805380	Yes, sir.
827890	828690	Okay.
831560	833820	So, because of the ubiquity of technology,
833820	836500	these structural arguments don't really make much sense anymore.
837400	838780	Okay. You, sir.
881180	881800	Okay.
881800	884060	So, the differences in how we deal with boys and girls
884060	886700	who are sort of maybe socially awkward is different,
886700	890240	and that might drive the reason why men are involved in it more disproportionately.
890620	891760	Does that sum it up pretty well?
891760	892580	Okay. You, ma'am.
909220	909960	Okay.
909960	912580	So, you think that these gender role issues are very important,
912580	915400	that we don't necessarily give it to girls.
922730	923290	Okay.
923290	926390	So, then you've had some very, very personal experiences with it.
926390	926950	Okay.
927350	928730	You, sir, over there with glasses.
955740	956580	Okay.
957300	960020	So, the way that computer science programs are set up
960020	961700	are also sort of structured
961700	965280	because we don't push women into math and that sort of thing at an early age.
965280	968420	Maybe that's going to keep them from getting involved in the academic portion of it.
968420	969640	You, ma'am, in the black shirt.
1018890	1021170	Okay. So, women have not only had as much time,
1021170	1023210	but there's a different attitude, perhaps, as well.
1023470	1023950	Okay.
1023950	1025150	You, sir, and then I've got to end.
1061550	1062150	Okay.
1062750	1064810	So, even in a whole other country in France
1064810	1068330	that there's experience that's available to both men and women,
1068330	1070890	but by the time they hit the university age, things change.
1070910	1074350	So, again, it might have something to do with the gender socialization.
1074670	1078530	Well, I don't have a very specific answer as to which one of these explains it best.
1078530	1080930	And to be personally very frank with you,
1080930	1084990	we need good research that's going to examine the female hacker's perspective.
1084990	1086470	We don't really have it yet.
1086470	1088830	People haven't focused on it very heavily.
1088930	1092350	And to that end, what we're going to need is good research.
1092350	1096950	And one of the best ways to do this sort of research is qualitative research.
1096970	1100690	Qualitative research from an academic standpoint involves interviews,
1100690	1102190	asking very open-ended questions
1102190	1106350	and allowing the person to describe what their experiences have been,
1106350	1109650	why they've been through the things that they've been through,
1109650	1112530	why they've experienced it, and what their rationalizations are
1112530	1115250	for why things work the way that they do.
1115510	1119150	And what I'd like to do, one thing that I'm currently performing,
1119150	1121990	is a research project examining female hackers.
1121990	1124150	I've got a good sample of men going,
1124150	1126590	and what I'd like to do is augment that with women
1126590	1130450	to really get at this issue of gender and hacking,
1130450	1132510	because we don't, frankly, have it.
1132610	1135470	What I'm doing currently is performing interviews.
1135470	1138250	They can be done via email, by phone, or in person,
1138250	1141950	depending upon if you're in the Charlotte or North Carolina area,
1141950	1143730	which many of you probably are not.
1144230	1146290	And it's a very simple sort of thing.
1146290	1148330	I ask very open-ended questions.
1148330	1150650	You can be as frank about it as you want.
1150770	1155770	And it allows you to tell me a great deal about your own personal experiences with hacking.
1155830	1158290	It takes less than 90 minutes, regardless of how you do it,
1158290	1161290	unless you're very long-winded, unless you have a lot to say,
1161290	1163430	or unless you're a very slow typist.
1163430	1165210	So it kind of depends upon you.
1165730	1170010	And it allows you to talk about a subject you may not otherwise be able to talk about.
1170010	1172450	If you're in a forum and you don't like to admit to people,
1172450	1176150	yes, I am a woman, because maybe you're afraid that it might affect you in a different way.
1176150	1180130	Or if you just really want to find somebody to brag to about all that you've done,
1180130	1183010	then great, you've got the opportunity through me.
1183370	1186870	And since this is a university research project,
1186870	1189290	there are very intensive protections that are available.
1189290	1192850	If you've looked at the DEFCON disk at all for this presentation,
1192850	1198390	you can see the institutional review board protections that I have to provide to you by law.
1198390	1201030	And if I violate it, then it's my butt on the line.
1201190	1205090	Basically what that means is I don't collect any identifying information about you.
1205090	1207670	I don't want to know what your name is. I don't want your phone number.
1207670	1210530	The only thing I want to know is, are you a man? Are you a woman?
1210530	1212130	How old are you? And that's it.
1212250	1214870	So there are other protections I can talk about.
1214870	1217470	One last thing to mention, there are benefits if you do this.
1217470	1219450	I don't have big money, so it's $10.
1219450	1224290	If you complete a survey, and it's $10, you can refer someone to me who can complete one.
1224290	1226390	This is my contact information.
1226430	1230490	I'm using a very simple email address for this, genderandhackingatyahoo.com,
1230490	1231490	or you can call me.
1231490	1236130	If you're interested in participating, if you think you know someone who would be, pass it along.
1236130	1239970	Because I would love to be able to provide you all with some information.
1239970	1243810	Maybe advance our understanding of what's going on at a theoretical level.
1243810	1246090	So I've got to go. Thank you.