[00:03.380 --> 00:05.500]  Announcement and then we'll get the talk underway.
[00:06.620 --> 00:10.160]  The tent has been running an hour late.
[00:10.160 --> 00:13.300]  It is now only running a half hour late.
[00:13.320 --> 00:17.300]  Again, the tent is now only one half hour late. Thanks.
[00:23.140 --> 00:26.380]  The tent is running a half an hour late.
[00:26.380 --> 00:29.680]  They were an hour behind, but they have picked it up to a half an hour.
[00:31.280 --> 00:32.980]  So, there you go.
[00:33.400 --> 00:36.660]  Alright, I'm supposed to get going because we're a little pressed for time.
[00:36.660 --> 00:38.700]  So, good afternoon to all of you.
[00:38.720 --> 00:42.640]  My name is Thomas Holt and I'm from the University of North Carolina, Charlotte.
[00:42.820 --> 00:50.700]  I'm a criminologist by trade and my research focuses primarily on computer crime just generally
[00:50.700 --> 00:53.120]  and computer hacking specifically.
[00:53.120 --> 00:57.500]  I've spent the better part of the last three years examining the hacker subculture,
[00:57.500 --> 01:01.540]  hacker social organization, and I've tried to get at it in a number of different ways.
[01:01.540 --> 01:05.260]  I've been interviewing active hackers, I've been looking at web forums,
[01:05.260 --> 01:09.740]  I've been at DEF CON, and one of the things that's really surprised me in all of my research
[01:09.740 --> 01:11.960]  is the relative lack of women.
[01:12.100 --> 01:14.740]  None of the people that I've interviewed have been female.
[01:14.940 --> 01:18.000]  Coming to DEF CON, it was apparent there's some sort of a disparity at least
[01:18.000 --> 01:20.640]  in terms of the population differences.
[01:20.700 --> 01:26.060]  And looking at web forums really, really struck me because there were very few admitted women.
[01:26.560 --> 01:30.980]  And in looking at one of the largest forums in the data sample I had assembled,
[01:30.980 --> 01:32.340]  I saw this passage.
[01:32.340 --> 01:34.060]  Now, this is just an excerpt from it.
[01:34.840 --> 01:38.820]  Sure, this is just an excerpt from a forum that I was looking at.
[01:39.320 --> 01:43.060]  And some of the names have been changed.
[01:43.060 --> 01:45.640]  But as you read through it, you can see some interesting things.
[01:45.640 --> 01:47.180]  The first person asks,
[01:47.180 --> 01:50.340]  How many of you have met any girls who are hackers?
[01:50.340 --> 01:53.860]  I've never seen some girl who knows a lot about computers and hacking.
[01:53.860 --> 01:56.100]  Are there any girls who do this?
[01:56.100 --> 01:59.460]  And the responses don't really suggest there are a lot of them.
[01:59.460 --> 02:00.320]  Jiggle Billy says,
[02:00.320 --> 02:02.660]  Unfortunately, I've not met any hacker chicks.
[02:02.660 --> 02:05.020]  The only ones I know about exist in the movies.
[02:05.080 --> 02:07.460]  The last one there, Goblocks,
[02:07.460 --> 02:11.620]  I am a female hacker and I know a few other female hackers.
[02:11.620 --> 02:12.720]  That's really it.
[02:12.720 --> 02:13.780]  That was pretty common.
[02:13.780 --> 02:16.860]  I only saw a handful of women maybe at most.
[02:16.860 --> 02:20.760]  And I was looking at six web forums of a variety of populations.
[02:20.900 --> 02:22.320]  And I thought this is really curious.
[02:22.320 --> 02:24.600]  Why aren't there women involved in this?
[02:24.620 --> 02:28.140]  And I thought there must be something more substantial going on.
[02:28.140 --> 02:30.000]  My interest was even more peaked
[02:30.000 --> 02:34.000]  when some comments were made recently by the president of Harvard.
[02:34.000 --> 02:37.180]  Lawrence H. Summers made some comments regarding women in the sciences
[02:37.180 --> 02:40.920]  and suggested that there are genetic differences
[02:40.920 --> 02:43.960]  and some social factors that drive a wedge
[02:43.960 --> 02:46.140]  between the number of women involved in the sciences
[02:46.140 --> 02:47.860]  and the number of men.
[02:47.860 --> 02:49.940]  We don't have exact transcripts of what he said,
[02:49.940 --> 02:53.620]  but it was enough to really raise the ire of the academic community
[02:53.620 --> 02:56.220]  and in some cases, people outside of it.
[02:56.220 --> 02:58.360]  And so I thought this is really unusual.
[02:58.360 --> 02:59.520]  What is driving this?
[02:59.520 --> 03:00.660]  What's happening?
[03:00.660 --> 03:02.580]  And I thought this must have some importance
[03:02.580 --> 03:04.920]  not only for women involved in the sciences,
[03:04.920 --> 03:08.200]  but in computer science, engineering, and hacking.
[03:08.200 --> 03:11.100]  And I thought this really needs to be addressed.
[03:11.260 --> 03:13.340]  And so one of the things that I started with
[03:13.340 --> 03:19.020]  was looking at the number of women involved in academics for computer science.
[03:19.460 --> 03:25.140]  We know that for a good period of time, from 1984 to 1995,
[03:25.140 --> 03:30.040]  there was a drop in the number of women who were enrolled in computer science degrees.
[03:30.280 --> 03:34.080]  Subsequently, after 1995, there's been a bit of an increase,
[03:34.080 --> 03:36.080]  but it's still relatively small.
[03:36.080 --> 03:40.340]  It was such a problem that many major universities began doing internal studies
[03:40.340 --> 03:43.020]  to determine why this decline was happening
[03:43.020 --> 03:46.980]  at MIT, at Stanford, a couple of different places.
[03:46.980 --> 03:49.240]  And there was no specific answer found.
[03:49.240 --> 03:51.960]  When we look at the business world,
[03:51.960 --> 03:56.340]  one thing that we know is that women have been increasingly involved
[03:56.340 --> 03:58.560]  in different technical occupations,
[03:58.560 --> 04:04.480]  but they take place in very low-status, low-income technical occupations.
[04:04.480 --> 04:06.840]  Women have increased, but they're still underrepresented
[04:06.840 --> 04:09.900]  in computer science and engineering, etc.
[04:09.900 --> 04:15.860]  In fact, interestingly, the way that women are dispersed in different occupations,
[04:15.860 --> 04:19.460]  99% of all dental hygienists are women.
[04:19.460 --> 04:22.780]  But 3 out of 10 system analysts are female.
[04:22.780 --> 04:26.400]  1 out of every 4 computer programmers are women.
[04:26.560 --> 04:28.660]  And there's even a gap in pay.
[04:28.660 --> 04:34.580]  We know that women computer scientists are making 17% less than men,
[04:34.580 --> 04:38.620]  and female computer programmers are earning 13% less.
[04:38.900 --> 04:42.700]  And if you look at... this is just a very quick slide.
[04:42.700 --> 04:45.600]  It gives you a real face of what's going on.
[04:45.600 --> 04:52.660]  This is a track from 1983 to 2001 for employed computer systems analysts by sex.
[04:52.720 --> 04:55.440]  The blue is women, the red is men.
[04:55.440 --> 04:59.040]  So there are definitely more men involved in this occupation.
[04:59.720 --> 05:01.900]  And I thought, this is really odd.
[05:01.900 --> 05:02.980]  What is going on?
[05:02.980 --> 05:07.740]  And when we look at women in the computer underground, or women in hacking,
[05:07.740 --> 05:10.220]  it's even more apparent that there's a disparity.
[05:10.360 --> 05:14.460]  Research tells us that the computer underground is dominated by men.
[05:14.460 --> 05:19.640]  If you're familiar with the work of Bruce Sterling, the author of the Hacker Crackdown,
[05:19.640 --> 05:21.220]  he made a very telling comment.
[05:21.220 --> 05:24.400]  He said that hacking is a... let me see if I get this right...
[05:24.540 --> 05:28.580]  a teenage male voyeur thrill power trip activity.
[05:28.660 --> 05:33.160]  You don't find female computer intruders any more than you will find female voyeurs
[05:33.160 --> 05:36.980]  who are obsessed with catching glimpses of men's underwear.
[05:37.540 --> 05:40.680]  Pretty salacious comments, and you can hear pretty much the same thing
[05:40.680 --> 05:43.880]  from Gail Thackeray, a very famous prosecutor.
[05:43.880 --> 05:47.940]  And a few sociologists and criminologists who have looked at this issue
[05:47.940 --> 05:52.560]  have done so very quickly, and they've made very, very cursory examinations.
[05:52.620 --> 05:58.200]  Jordan and Taylor in 1998 suggested that the computer underground is male-dominated,
[05:58.200 --> 06:02.780]  so much so that they consider it an important component of hacker subculture.
[06:02.800 --> 06:08.240]  A subsequent study by a guy named Thomas suggested that hacking is a boy culture,
[06:08.240 --> 06:10.620]  which is all about demonstrating mastery,
[06:10.620 --> 06:13.880]  whether it's of your physical or your social environment.
[06:14.240 --> 06:17.300]  Now, this is not to suggest that women don't hack at all.
[06:17.300 --> 06:19.540]  There have been some famous women hackers.
[06:19.840 --> 06:24.140]  Susan Thunder, Carmen Karasik, if I'm pronouncing that right.
[06:24.140 --> 06:27.420]  She's been involved in some hacktivism, but that's about it.
[06:27.480 --> 06:31.260]  Aside from that, we don't really get a lot of news on women in hacking.
[06:31.380 --> 06:35.360]  The few journalists who have looked at this problem
[06:35.360 --> 06:38.740]  have suggested that the number of women is increasing,
[06:38.740 --> 06:41.480]  but they don't give us any sort of hard and fast numbers.
[06:41.820 --> 06:46.620]  A publication by Ackerman in 2001 said they're more involved in white hat hacking
[06:46.620 --> 06:49.900]  and security interests, but that's about it.
[06:49.940 --> 06:54.280]  The few women who actually discuss issues of gender and hacking
[06:54.280 --> 06:59.600]  have suggested that there's quite a bit of harassment and difficulty that women face.
[06:59.600 --> 07:02.460]  A researcher by the name of Gil Boa in 1996
[07:02.460 --> 07:06.160]  described a great deal of difficulty that she faced.
[07:06.160 --> 07:08.880]  Sagan suggested that entry-level female hackers
[07:08.880 --> 07:11.780]  experienced a great deal of harassment.
[07:11.780 --> 07:17.940]  And a study from Ipsos-Reid suggested that the population of 18 to 24-year-old women
[07:17.940 --> 07:24.420]  experienced the most heavy experiences of being hit on or harassed while online.
[07:24.860 --> 07:31.140]  So, generally speaking, we know that women are involved in academic computer science careers,
[07:31.140 --> 07:32.760]  but it's relatively small.
[07:32.760 --> 07:36.840]  We know they're in the workforce, but they face some difficulties and some differences.
[07:36.900 --> 07:40.040]  And we know that they are very, very absent from the underground.
[07:40.220 --> 07:43.300]  So, why is this? I know I've only got 15 minutes,
[07:43.300 --> 07:46.920]  but does anybody have an opinion, maybe, as to why there's this disparity?
[07:47.780 --> 07:50.000]  You in the way back, you've had your hand up for a while.
[07:54.630 --> 07:56.830]  Yes, this is primarily based on the U.S.
[07:57.590 --> 07:58.750]  Yes, you, sir.
[08:02.660 --> 08:05.420]  Okay, the harassment and difficulty.
[08:06.240 --> 08:09.200]  Okay, good. Anyone else?
[08:10.340 --> 08:11.060]  Yes?
[08:12.160 --> 08:13.760]  Men are threatened?
[08:14.060 --> 08:16.680]  Okay, well.
[08:16.680 --> 08:17.860]  Yes, ma'am?
[08:19.060 --> 08:20.100]  Okay.
[08:20.100 --> 08:22.940]  These are very interesting questions, yes.
[08:27.990 --> 08:30.350]  Okay. Others?
[08:32.170 --> 08:34.410]  Okay, well.
[08:36.130 --> 08:39.170]  Sure, she just said that she's been shunned by other women.
[08:39.170 --> 08:41.810]  It's not something that women are expected to do.
[08:41.810 --> 08:43.250]  Would you say that's a pretty good synopsis?
[08:43.410 --> 08:44.930]  Yes, and then I've got to go.
[08:47.690 --> 08:49.650]  So, that's why women don't hack.
[09:06.020 --> 09:08.540]  Okay, so it's easier to harass women online.
[09:08.540 --> 09:10.640]  Maybe that's part of why women stay out of it.
[09:10.640 --> 09:15.700]  Well, since I don't have much time, let me skip ahead to some of the theoretical propositions
[09:15.700 --> 09:18.180]  that have been given by different researchers.
[09:18.180 --> 09:22.060]  The first is this notion of psychosexual theories.
[09:22.060 --> 09:28.320]  Essentially, the idea here is that hacking is a way for boys and young men to sublimate others,
[09:28.320 --> 09:31.640]  to dominate others, and impose their will on them.
[09:31.680 --> 09:37.720]  And, in a sense, basically, if you can't penetrate another person, why not penetrate a system?
[09:37.720 --> 09:39.660]  I know that sounds really harsh.
[09:39.700 --> 09:45.920]  But, an attorney for a hacker named Ehud Tenenbaum, if you're familiar with that guy,
[09:45.920 --> 09:49.800]  suggested that, in the past, we used to boast about the girls we have.
[09:49.800 --> 09:53.500]  Nowadays, kids boast about their ability to hack into different systems.
[09:53.940 --> 09:59.860]  And this notion has been furthered by the stereotype of the socially inept young male hacker.
[09:59.860 --> 10:05.260]  Someone who can't relate to others, but can get along very, very well with hardware and software.
[10:05.260 --> 10:09.680]  And this is even furthered by some very esoteric notions about cyberspace,
[10:09.680 --> 10:13.700]  or the matrix being a womb-like environment, a feminine place.
[10:13.700 --> 10:18.100]  But it gets a little abstract from there, and it's a little difficult to explain.
[10:18.100 --> 10:20.200]  So, let me just move on to the next one.
[10:20.200 --> 10:22.320]  Gender role socialization.
[10:22.420 --> 10:25.660]  This is something that some of you have already talked about.
[10:25.680 --> 10:30.940]  It's basically the idea that there are shaping relationships between technology and gender.
[10:30.980 --> 10:35.780]  Technology has a way of affecting the way that we relate to one another.
[10:35.780 --> 10:41.120]  The argument here is basically that technology, especially computer technology,
[10:41.120 --> 10:43.540]  has some very male characteristics.
[10:43.840 --> 10:49.420]  It requires self-confidence, assertiveness, analytical thinking, very cold logic.
[10:49.420 --> 10:53.000]  Whereas this is in direct contrast to more feminine traits.
[10:53.000 --> 10:56.340]  The ideas of nurturing, caring, protection, emotion.
[10:56.340 --> 10:58.600]  If you're familiar with the work of Sherry Turkle at all,
[10:58.600 --> 11:02.040]  she talks about hard mastery versus soft mastery.
[11:02.040 --> 11:07.900]  Hard mastery is the direct imposition of your will on something else through planned attacks.
[11:07.900 --> 11:11.840]  Whereas soft mastery is more of a free-form kind of interaction,
[11:11.840 --> 11:15.400]  more something of a conversation than a monologue.
[11:15.400 --> 11:18.260]  But this is just one sort of argument.
[11:18.500 --> 11:22.740]  And as a result of these gender role characteristics,
[11:22.740 --> 11:26.120]  it affects the way that we are pushed into different things.
[11:26.120 --> 11:31.160]  Because of the way that we view technology, that has a way of keeping women out.
[11:31.160 --> 11:36.040]  Women who do decide to go into these careers can face a great deal of difficulty.
[11:36.040 --> 11:40.620]  They might face discrimination, they might face a number of different challenges.
[11:40.620 --> 11:45.760]  In fact, this is furthered by the notion of cyberspace as a wild west frontier.
[11:45.760 --> 11:50.680]  If you've read Gibson or Barlow, the discussion of hacking as a place,
[11:50.680 --> 11:54.920]  or pardon me, cyberspace as a place for the cowboy, the outlaw.
[11:54.920 --> 11:59.180]  Women don't really have a strong place within cyberspace in that regard.
[11:59.180 --> 12:05.360]  And another researcher named Susan Herring has suggested that the language of cyberspace is gendered.
[12:05.360 --> 12:11.260]  It's very male-oriented. It focuses on conflict, on adversarial forms of communication.
[12:11.260 --> 12:15.840]  And if you don't use these sorts of language, if you don't use these linguistic traits,
[12:15.840 --> 12:18.580]  then you are not going to be treated in the same way.
[12:18.580 --> 12:22.240]  You're going to be shunned, you're going to be criticized, or what have you.
[12:22.740 --> 12:25.780]  And there are also structural arguments that are made.
[12:25.780 --> 12:30.720]  Essentially, women have not had the same opportunities as men in the workforce.
[12:30.720 --> 12:36.560]  Women's participation in labor has been based solely on the opportunities made available to them.
[12:36.560 --> 12:39.040]  For instance, when you think of World War II,
[12:39.040 --> 12:43.520]  women were needed, well, anyone was needed to fill roles working in factories.
[12:43.520 --> 12:47.280]  Women took on this role, but once the boys returned back home,
[12:47.280 --> 12:52.380]  women were expected to go back into the home, become homemakers, what have you.
[12:52.440 --> 12:56.700]  So, women's roles have been affected by technology,
[12:56.700 --> 13:01.200]  and structurally, women are not necessarily able to get good-paying jobs.
[13:01.200 --> 13:02.940]  Their opportunities have been limited,
[13:02.940 --> 13:07.100]  and it's further affected by being tied back into some of the gender role arguments
[13:07.640 --> 13:11.120]  that it's hard to advance in your career if you have to raise a family,
[13:11.120 --> 13:13.480]  if you have to have kids, that kind of thing.
[13:13.480 --> 13:14.960]  It makes things difficult.
[13:15.400 --> 13:18.960]  So, these are just some of the theories that have been postulated.
[13:19.420 --> 13:20.980]  What do you think of them?
[13:20.980 --> 13:24.680]  Do any of these make sense? Do they jive with your personal experiences?
[13:24.680 --> 13:25.380]  Yes, sir.
[13:47.890 --> 13:48.690]  Okay.
[13:51.560 --> 13:53.820]  So, because of the ubiquity of technology,
[13:53.820 --> 13:56.500]  these structural arguments don't really make much sense anymore.
[13:57.400 --> 13:58.780]  Okay. You, sir.
[14:41.180 --> 14:41.800]  Okay.
[14:41.800 --> 14:44.060]  So, the differences in how we deal with boys and girls
[14:44.060 --> 14:46.700]  who are sort of maybe socially awkward is different,
[14:46.700 --> 14:50.240]  and that might drive the reason why men are involved in it more disproportionately.
[14:50.620 --> 14:51.760]  Does that sum it up pretty well?
[14:51.760 --> 14:52.580]  Okay. You, ma'am.
[15:09.220 --> 15:09.960]  Okay.
[15:09.960 --> 15:12.580]  So, you think that these gender role issues are very important,
[15:12.580 --> 15:15.400]  that we don't necessarily give it to girls.
[15:22.730 --> 15:23.290]  Okay.
[15:23.290 --> 15:26.390]  So, then you've had some very, very personal experiences with it.
[15:26.390 --> 15:26.950]  Okay.
[15:27.350 --> 15:28.730]  You, sir, over there with glasses.
[15:55.740 --> 15:56.580]  Okay.
[15:57.300 --> 16:00.020]  So, the way that computer science programs are set up
[16:00.020 --> 16:01.700]  are also sort of structured
[16:01.700 --> 16:05.280]  because we don't push women into math and that sort of thing at an early age.
[16:05.280 --> 16:08.420]  Maybe that's going to keep them from getting involved in the academic portion of it.
[16:08.420 --> 16:09.640]  You, ma'am, in the black shirt.
[16:58.890 --> 17:01.170]  Okay. So, women have not only had as much time,
[17:01.170 --> 17:03.210]  but there's a different attitude, perhaps, as well.
[17:03.470 --> 17:03.950]  Okay.
[17:03.950 --> 17:05.150]  You, sir, and then I've got to end.
[17:41.550 --> 17:42.150]  Okay.
[17:42.750 --> 17:44.810]  So, even in a whole other country in France
[17:44.810 --> 17:48.330]  that there's experience that's available to both men and women,
[17:48.330 --> 17:50.890]  but by the time they hit the university age, things change.
[17:50.910 --> 17:54.350]  So, again, it might have something to do with the gender socialization.
[17:54.670 --> 17:58.530]  Well, I don't have a very specific answer as to which one of these explains it best.
[17:58.530 --> 18:00.930]  And to be personally very frank with you,
[18:00.930 --> 18:04.990]  we need good research that's going to examine the female hacker's perspective.
[18:04.990 --> 18:06.470]  We don't really have it yet.
[18:06.470 --> 18:08.830]  People haven't focused on it very heavily.
[18:08.930 --> 18:12.350]  And to that end, what we're going to need is good research.
[18:12.350 --> 18:16.950]  And one of the best ways to do this sort of research is qualitative research.
[18:16.970 --> 18:20.690]  Qualitative research from an academic standpoint involves interviews,
[18:20.690 --> 18:22.190]  asking very open-ended questions
[18:22.190 --> 18:26.350]  and allowing the person to describe what their experiences have been,
[18:26.350 --> 18:29.650]  why they've been through the things that they've been through,
[18:29.650 --> 18:32.530]  why they've experienced it, and what their rationalizations are
[18:32.530 --> 18:35.250]  for why things work the way that they do.
[18:35.510 --> 18:39.150]  And what I'd like to do, one thing that I'm currently performing,
[18:39.150 --> 18:41.990]  is a research project examining female hackers.
[18:41.990 --> 18:44.150]  I've got a good sample of men going,
[18:44.150 --> 18:46.590]  and what I'd like to do is augment that with women
[18:46.590 --> 18:50.450]  to really get at this issue of gender and hacking,
[18:50.450 --> 18:52.510]  because we don't, frankly, have it.
[18:52.610 --> 18:55.470]  What I'm doing currently is performing interviews.
[18:55.470 --> 18:58.250]  They can be done via email, by phone, or in person,
[18:58.250 --> 19:01.950]  depending upon if you're in the Charlotte or North Carolina area,
[19:01.950 --> 19:03.730]  which many of you probably are not.
[19:04.230 --> 19:06.290]  And it's a very simple sort of thing.
[19:06.290 --> 19:08.330]  I ask very open-ended questions.
[19:08.330 --> 19:10.650]  You can be as frank about it as you want.
[19:10.770 --> 19:15.770]  And it allows you to tell me a great deal about your own personal experiences with hacking.
[19:15.830 --> 19:18.290]  It takes less than 90 minutes, regardless of how you do it,
[19:18.290 --> 19:21.290]  unless you're very long-winded, unless you have a lot to say,
[19:21.290 --> 19:23.430]  or unless you're a very slow typist.
[19:23.430 --> 19:25.210]  So it kind of depends upon you.
[19:25.730 --> 19:30.010]  And it allows you to talk about a subject you may not otherwise be able to talk about.
[19:30.010 --> 19:32.450]  If you're in a forum and you don't like to admit to people,
[19:32.450 --> 19:36.150]  yes, I am a woman, because maybe you're afraid that it might affect you in a different way.
[19:36.150 --> 19:40.130]  Or if you just really want to find somebody to brag to about all that you've done,
[19:40.130 --> 19:43.010]  then great, you've got the opportunity through me.
[19:43.370 --> 19:46.870]  And since this is a university research project,
[19:46.870 --> 19:49.290]  there are very intensive protections that are available.
[19:49.290 --> 19:52.850]  If you've looked at the DEFCON disk at all for this presentation,
[19:52.850 --> 19:58.390]  you can see the institutional review board protections that I have to provide to you by law.
[19:58.390 --> 20:01.030]  And if I violate it, then it's my butt on the line.
[20:01.190 --> 20:05.090]  Basically what that means is I don't collect any identifying information about you.
[20:05.090 --> 20:07.670]  I don't want to know what your name is. I don't want your phone number.
[20:07.670 --> 20:10.530]  The only thing I want to know is, are you a man? Are you a woman?
[20:10.530 --> 20:12.130]  How old are you? And that's it.
[20:12.250 --> 20:14.870]  So there are other protections I can talk about.
[20:14.870 --> 20:17.470]  One last thing to mention, there are benefits if you do this.
[20:17.470 --> 20:19.450]  I don't have big money, so it's $10.
[20:19.450 --> 20:24.290]  If you complete a survey, and it's $10, you can refer someone to me who can complete one.
[20:24.290 --> 20:26.390]  This is my contact information.
[20:26.430 --> 20:30.490]  I'm using a very simple email address for this, genderandhackingatyahoo.com,
[20:30.490 --> 20:31.490]  or you can call me.
[20:31.490 --> 20:36.130]  If you're interested in participating, if you think you know someone who would be, pass it along.
[20:36.130 --> 20:39.970]  Because I would love to be able to provide you all with some information.
[20:39.970 --> 20:43.810]  Maybe advance our understanding of what's going on at a theoretical level.
[20:43.810 --> 20:46.090]  So I've got to go. Thank you.