WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:00.320 All right. 00:00.320 --> 00:02.720 This is going to be the meet the VC panel. 00:03.160 --> 00:05.020 FYI, there are two mics there. 00:05.020 --> 00:09.140 If you have any questions when it's Q&A, by direction here, please go to one of the mics. 00:09.520 --> 00:10.240 Cool. 00:10.460 --> 00:11.580 Give me a big hand. 00:16.360 --> 00:17.080 Cool. 00:17.080 --> 00:18.380 So my name is John Herring. 00:18.380 --> 00:20.180 I work at a company called Lookout. 00:21.340 --> 00:24.200 You know, the company Lookout, for those who don't know, does mobile security. 00:24.200 --> 00:25.760 We started here at DEF CON. 00:25.860 --> 00:32.660 After a number of years of doing research and spending time in the community, we were able to build a business and ended up raising venture capital. 00:32.660 --> 00:39.740 So I thought it might be interesting to share some of our stories and spend some time getting to know some of the top venture capitalists who work in the security industry as well. 00:39.780 --> 00:42.180 So maybe we can introduce ourselves, starting with you, JJ. 00:43.220 --> 00:44.020 Hello. 00:44.200 --> 00:45.600 My name is John Jack. 00:45.600 --> 00:47.200 I go by JJ. 00:47.660 --> 00:48.460 Clever. 00:49.360 --> 00:56.920 I was the CEO of a security company called Fortify Software, which was security at the application level. 00:56.920 --> 01:05.860 We were one of the pioneers in that space, at least in terms of commercializing a lot of work that had been done prior to us starting the company. 01:07.000 --> 01:18.540 We grew that company fairly well, became the standard in financial institutions, governments, telcos, and actually the standard in commercial software providers. 01:18.540 --> 01:29.020 People like Oracle and SAP and EMC all used this product in order to root out vulnerabilities in the software that they delivered to their customers. 01:29.320 --> 01:34.040 That company was acquired by Hewlett Packard in 2010. 01:35.160 --> 01:43.680 Previous to that, I was CEO of a couple of other companies, one we sold to VMware, one we sold to a company called Corporate Data. 01:45.540 --> 01:52.560 And now I work part time with a VC firm called Andreessen Horowitz. 01:52.560 --> 01:56.140 We have a number of investments in security. 01:56.780 --> 02:05.760 And I also part time do some consulting and serve as an independent director on other venture‑backed companies. 02:05.760 --> 02:07.060 Thank you. 02:08.420 --> 02:09.260 Hi. 02:09.260 --> 02:10.800 My name is Matt Ocko. 02:10.800 --> 02:13.500 I very unglamorously go by Matt. 02:14.280 --> 02:20.040 I'm the co‑founder and co‑managing partner of a firm called Data Collective. 02:20.320 --> 02:32.340 We like doing deep, dark, difficult stuff that most of our venture colleagues, ironically, except for the guys on this panel, disdain or don't understand. 02:32.340 --> 02:34.400 It's where we've made most of our money. 02:34.480 --> 02:42.920 It seems to be a reasonable thesis across 220 companies over nearly 25 years. 02:42.920 --> 02:53.700 We've had fewer than 20 losses and we've made our entrepreneurs about $30 billion net of boom, bust, IRS, you name it. 02:54.680 --> 03:06.620 I think some of the distinguishing characteristics of our firm that may be a little unusual is that three out of the four partners still read and write code. 03:06.980 --> 03:09.060 Still understand chip design. 03:09.120 --> 03:14.400 If you show me a 10 million gate design and you're lying to me about the clock tree, I will know. 03:15.280 --> 03:20.760 And we've really enjoyed doing really fundamental stuff. 03:20.760 --> 03:22.420 We're the seed investors in Zen Source. 03:22.420 --> 03:24.600 We're very early on in VeriSign. 03:24.600 --> 03:33.920 A number of our companies in the security space are important parts of Google and VMware and Facebook and some other demanding customers around the world. 03:33.920 --> 03:35.080 And we love this stuff. 03:35.080 --> 03:36.760 And I'm very happy to be here today. 03:37.340 --> 03:38.320 Good afternoon. 03:38.320 --> 03:39.400 My name is Ping Lee. 03:39.400 --> 03:40.740 I'm a partner at Excel. 03:40.740 --> 03:44.380 I've been doing venture investing for close to ten years now. 03:44.380 --> 03:47.380 Excel is an early stage venture capital firm. 03:47.580 --> 03:57.980 We've backed companies from the seed stage to the growth stage, offices here in the U.S., Silicon Valley, in London, China, and India. 03:58.500 --> 04:07.400 And our goal is to always find exciting entrepreneurs that are trying to build category‑defining companies and have been investing in security for quite some time and look out. 04:07.440 --> 04:10.000 It's just one of many companies we work with. 04:12.740 --> 04:17.080 Hi, I'm Deepak Jeevan Kumar from General Catalyst Partners. 04:20.740 --> 04:26.060 We are an early stage and late stage venture capital firm with $2.5 billion under management. 04:26.060 --> 04:30.920 And we have backed companies across multiple industries, including cyber security. 04:31.060 --> 04:37.940 Some of our investments that you know of are Kayak, Airbnb, Stripe, Snapchat, more recently. 04:38.380 --> 04:44.600 And we also have not shied away from hard technology investments. 04:45.060 --> 04:52.160 So actually, Excel and us used to share an investment called BBN Technologies, where the early Internet research was done. 04:52.620 --> 04:59.200 And one of our companies called Reveal Imaging did like a hardware for bomb scanners, and they had only one customer called the TSA. 05:00.120 --> 05:05.380 So personally, I started writing code when I was about seven or eight years old. 05:05.380 --> 05:06.420 I don't remember now. 05:06.500 --> 05:08.300 And the first one was Logo. 05:08.300 --> 05:10.720 I don't know if you guys ever used Logo before. 05:11.280 --> 05:19.880 And I have hacked quite a bit, and I think I was lucky to be involved in two of the largest supercomputing projects. 05:20.140 --> 05:22.960 I was an architect on those projects in human history. 05:23.420 --> 05:30.040 So happy to share and happy to ‑‑ I hope we can convince more of you to become entrepreneurs in cyber security. 05:31.340 --> 05:32.680 So it's interesting. 05:32.680 --> 05:39.640 So this is my 11th year at DEF CON, and I can tell you when I first started coming, it's not something I would have expected to see venture capitalists at DEF CON. 05:39.780 --> 05:42.380 And it's definitely changed a lot as time has gone on. 05:42.380 --> 05:51.840 Just the interest from a mainstream capacity in cyber security in general has changed a lot as this technology has touched the fabric of society and people's everyday lives. 05:51.880 --> 05:54.140 I'm curious, what are you guys looking for? 05:54.240 --> 06:01.100 I'm sure a lot of people in the audience are curious, you know, as they're building projects and whatnot, what is it going to take to get funded by a venture capitalist? 06:01.100 --> 06:07.400 What are the types of things you look for when you're looking for a security investment, looking for people at a conference like this? 06:10.630 --> 06:11.510 Okay. 06:11.630 --> 06:13.710 We're still going in reverse order. 06:14.050 --> 06:15.650 Because it says number four here. 06:17.750 --> 06:32.110 So I would not ‑‑ I won't address the technical side of it, because my background, I think you can tell from the introduction, I'm not a super ‑‑ I'm not a hacker, despite the shirt that I proudly wear. 06:33.810 --> 06:40.850 I can tell you that I would say two things in terms of what do we look for in a security investment. 06:40.850 --> 06:50.090 I mean, the first is obviously we look for something that has a wide applicability so that the market opportunity is big. 06:50.090 --> 07:01.530 And if you take ‑‑ if you think about how you can leverage a large market opportunity, one of the key things is are you leveraging something beyond just a security solution? 07:01.530 --> 07:07.730 So a lot of security solutions are, frankly, point solutions to address a tough problem in security. 07:07.730 --> 07:10.350 And you can make some nice companies out of that. 07:10.510 --> 07:18.970 But if you're also leveraging another major trend, so, for example, enterprises moving to the cloud and cloud‑based applications. 07:18.970 --> 07:24.690 So one of the investments we made at Andreessen Horowitz in which I'm on the board is called Cypher Cloud. 07:24.690 --> 07:44.310 And what Cypher Cloud does is essentially allow people who use Salesforce and Office 365 and Gmail and Box and other cloud‑based applications, it allows them to secure the data that's in the cloud such that if a government organization cites the Patriot Act and says to Salesforce, 07:44.310 --> 07:48.510 give us all the data for XYZ company, the data is encrypted. 07:48.510 --> 07:50.250 It won't be meaningful. 07:50.250 --> 07:51.750 So it's therefore protected. 07:51.750 --> 07:56.150 And when you're in a heavy regulated industry, that's something you need to address. 07:56.150 --> 08:11.510 So there's a company that not only has solved a security issue, but is also leveraging a broader trend in technology , which is people moving workloads from on‑premise into the cloud in one form or another. 08:11.510 --> 08:25.970 So that's an example of looking at an opportunity that might be bigger than just a purpose‑built specific solution to a security problem. 08:26.330 --> 08:43.770 And the other thing I would say is that we look for really smart entrepreneurs that are super motivated, that really have a lot of drive, a lot of ambition and really want to be successful. 08:43.850 --> 08:49.270 And so when you put those two together, you have kind of a winning formula. 08:50.990 --> 08:54.170 So I think John makes an excellent point. 08:54.170 --> 08:57.230 Big markets are important. 08:57.870 --> 09:20.910 But in a number of the investments that we've done, some of which actually ended up being co‑investments with Ping's team at XL or John's team at Andreessen, as they went through the end of their seed stage or into later stages, are distinguished by not addressing a big market today. 09:21.210 --> 09:27.530 So, you know, half the Fortune 500 runs ‑‑ or more than half. 09:27.530 --> 09:35.030 90% of the Fortune 500, 95% runs these Potemkin Village antivirus systems. 09:35.290 --> 09:36.850 That's a big market. 09:36.850 --> 09:42.250 You can say, hey, 10 bucks on every aging desktop PC for the U.S. 09:42.250 --> 09:44.550 and other G7 countries is a big market. 09:44.550 --> 09:46.130 We have no interest in that. 09:46.130 --> 10:01.310 We're interested in the stuff that's going to cause a CIO or a CSO to ‑‑ in a late stage adopter company, three years from now, to panic and say, I must have this at all costs. 10:01.310 --> 10:12.990 Because one of the dark but unspoken truisms in venture capital is anything worth doing actually takes a long time. 10:12.990 --> 10:29.950 And all of these sort of huge fantasy outcomes that are celebrated as overnight successes or inevitable successes like a Google, actually took seven or eight years of really hard work. 10:30.190 --> 10:38.800 Things like CIRA, congratulations to Andreessen for having the foresight to invest in that, are kind of random events. 10:38.860 --> 10:49.180 So when you're building a product, if it's doing something meaningful, by the time you've got it polished and by the time somebody is going to pay you actually gives a crap, it's been a couple years. 10:49.180 --> 10:50.040 Maybe more. 10:50.040 --> 10:57.320 So if you're looking at stuff that will motivate a customer today, you've already put yourself out of the running. 10:57.840 --> 11:02.740 So to do that, to John's point, takes incredible intestinal fortitude. 11:02.740 --> 11:15.340 It takes people who can solve difficult multidimensional problems about how to run their company and keep their team happy and keep their customers happy all at the same time on limited amounts of money. 11:16.100 --> 11:22.620 And because you're going for the gusto for something in the future, it takes incredible tech jobs. 11:22.700 --> 11:32.160 So, I mean, everybody on this panel is motivated not to invest in me too tech, even if it's looking three years out or something undifferentiated. 11:32.420 --> 11:36.340 We want to see stuff that has sustainable competitive advantage. 11:36.660 --> 11:39.640 And so two interesting examples. 11:41.060 --> 11:50.480 We're in a company called Sentinel that we did with Ping's crew at Excel. 11:52.140 --> 11:58.780 Those guys are standing a lot of existing security assumptions on his head. 11:58.780 --> 12:05.760 They're doing something very, very interesting that actually produces deterministic results for important stuff and runs only in user space. 12:05.760 --> 12:07.480 They don't hook the kernel at all. 12:07.500 --> 12:08.660 I was astonished. 12:08.660 --> 12:09.960 I didn't believe it. 12:10.760 --> 12:13.000 It took me a long time to understand it. 12:13.120 --> 12:16.180 But it's light years ahead of anything else out there. 12:16.180 --> 12:17.460 That was worth doing. 12:17.460 --> 12:30.980 We're in a company with John and his team at A16Z called Illumio that's doing things that people said was impossible to enforce security for fungible workloads in the cloud. 12:31.360 --> 12:41.060 And by the way, John, I think it's fair to say that when those guys started doing that, most people were disdainful that real corporate compute workloads would move to the cloud. 12:41.240 --> 12:43.860 So anyway, I hope that's useful. 12:44.940 --> 12:53.240 The one point I would echo that Matt just said is some of these security markets have become really large are not obvious at first. 12:53.620 --> 12:57.420 And China, the great entrepreneurs are the ones I kind of see around the corner. 12:57.420 --> 13:06.840 I remember when we first invested in John's company, John Herring's company years ago around mobile security, the Android phone didn't exist. 13:06.900 --> 13:09.200 The iPhone was just shipping. 13:09.540 --> 13:13.320 It wasn't obvious there was going to be any security problems on the mobile phone at the time. 13:13.360 --> 13:23.180 And having that foresight to be that far ahead of the market and understanding where the hackers are going to be I think is a real set of instincts that we look for. 13:23.180 --> 13:26.980 Security is particularly hard to invest in because it's an arms race. 13:27.080 --> 13:34.860 Every time someone comes to our office with a great idea, there's ten hackers out there with a better idea that's going to get around his great idea. 13:34.940 --> 13:41.400 So you really have to find entrepreneurs that we found that really have been coming to DEVCON for the last X number of years. 13:41.400 --> 13:47.200 They have to be in the cutting edge of whatever the hacker community is thinking about and pushing the envelope on. 13:47.200 --> 13:48.400 And that's really hard to find. 13:48.500 --> 13:56.920 Folks that actually understand the problem but also understand the opportunity to build a company around, that intersection is really rare. 13:56.920 --> 13:58.760 That's what we look for in security. 14:02.340 --> 14:05.460 I totally agree with most of those points. 14:05.920 --> 14:15.060 One thing I would like to add is that we are at the intersection of three major trends at the same time in the history of computer science and technology. 14:15.160 --> 14:17.320 Mobile, cloud computing and big data. 14:17.320 --> 14:19.060 A lot of people have written about this. 14:19.180 --> 14:25.560 But what that means is that we are going to see multidimensional security problems that we have never seen before. 14:25.840 --> 14:32.600 So it is an amazingly good time to be thinking about innovations in cyber security. 14:32.600 --> 14:37.740 I actually wrote an article yesterday on the Forbes on cyber security for the app economy. 14:38.160 --> 14:49.020 But the point I make is that we have to make tools that are faster and more better than things that we have seen before because of this multidimensional problem that exists today. 14:49.280 --> 14:59.480 And in terms of the entrepreneurs that we look for specifically, number one, you need to be great evangelists of your product without overselling it. 15:00.260 --> 15:07.480 Then number two is you should have the ability to look around market changes because markets do change. 15:07.480 --> 15:11.580 Human behavior changes very rapidly than what we think it does. 15:12.100 --> 15:22.420 And to Ping's point, you need to be best of breed in what you do and you need to stand the test of your peer groups who are almost as good as you or even better than you. 15:22.920 --> 15:34.840 I guess broadly speaking, everybody in this audience is kind of in the cat bird seat for building a company. 15:34.840 --> 15:46.940 Because as much as fluffy consumer companies get love and attention and big valuations, that's actually not where the real money is. 15:46.940 --> 15:57.160 And everybody in this room is probably aware of somewhere between a mini to a full-scale security holocaust that's in process. 15:57.500 --> 16:11.060 I mean, I'm pretty convinced that RSA up to 512 bits is irretrievably broken, which means every bank and web server and DNS cert out there is effectively vulnerable right now. 16:11.060 --> 16:13.060 I'd say that's a pretty large problem. 16:13.060 --> 16:17.100 And the only alternative, I mean, there are alternatives. 16:17.100 --> 16:21.160 The only practical one is stuck rotting away inside of RIM. 16:21.160 --> 16:28.200 So there's a giant $10 billion company right there that I don't see anybody doing right now. 16:29.300 --> 16:32.620 People are fantasizing about the so‑called Internet of Things. 16:32.620 --> 16:39.740 I can't even leave my Bluetooth on here because I'd really prefer not to pay for your guy's next vacation. 16:40.940 --> 17:00.680 And so everything from my future pacemaker to the electric meter on my house to the thing that orders food for my kids in my refrigerator circa 2020 is going to be produced by the same ass clowns that can't even have effective security on my phone. 17:05.190 --> 17:08.410 So, I mean, John asked a really good question. 17:08.410 --> 17:09.370 What are we looking for? 17:09.370 --> 17:24.250 Well, the answer is we're looking for you guys to step up much as John did when everybody was pretty smug about the state of mobile security, shock the hell out of us and produce a giant solution to a giant problem that nobody was thinking about. 17:24.750 --> 17:29.670 And also I'd really like to not pay for your next vacation in the process. 17:29.670 --> 17:31.590 I turned off my Bluetooth. 17:31.790 --> 17:35.970 Yeah, well, I remembered to turn off mine about an hour ago. 17:35.970 --> 17:37.850 So let me ask the opposite question. 17:37.850 --> 17:49.450 So, you know, you meet lots of people working on super interesting projects, many of which, you know, can be intellectually interesting but many times won't end up being a business of the scale that we've talked about, billions of dollars. 17:49.450 --> 17:50.990 That doesn't mean it's not interesting. 17:51.110 --> 17:54.870 When does it make sense not to raise venture capital from someone like yourselves? 17:54.890 --> 18:03.170 How do you think about the difference between the types of things you would want to actually fund and the types of things that someone might want to go turn into a business? 18:03.190 --> 18:05.570 But it doesn't make sense to talk to people like you guys. 18:05.950 --> 18:08.090 Are we pushing or popping the stack, John? 18:08.090 --> 18:10.010 We're pushing the stack, it's you. 18:11.770 --> 18:14.630 I'll try to be as brief as I can. 18:15.330 --> 18:18.850 There's a concept in finance called net present value. 18:19.010 --> 18:20.910 How many of you guys are familiar with that? 18:21.810 --> 18:22.610 Awesome. 18:22.790 --> 18:27.250 That's a disturbingly well educated hacker crowd. 18:28.030 --> 18:43.830 So the dirty secret or the other dirty secret of venture capital is that your NPV utility curve and the VC's NPV utility curve can diverge pretty rapidly. 18:43.830 --> 18:55.130 So thanks to a feature of preferred stock investment, most VCs get the right to keep investing in your company every time you take money. 18:55.130 --> 19:01.090 Which means as long as we have deep enough pockets, our stake doesn't go down and it may in fact go up a little bit. 19:01.090 --> 19:10.950 Your slice of the pie as more new dollars pour in is in effect reduced over time as you continue to build a company. 19:11.090 --> 19:20.730 So if you build a really giant company and you and your founding team own 10% and you sell it for a billion dollars after 10 years, that's 100 million bucks. 19:20.730 --> 19:22.710 That seems like a pretty good outcome. 19:22.790 --> 19:31.590 But if you own 80% of your company and you sell it for $100 million two years into it, that's $80 million. 19:32.150 --> 19:41.270 So you would have had a better NPV selling earlier than later for a supposedly more impressive number. 19:41.270 --> 19:47.350 And when you factor in risk, building billion dollar outcomes is really freaking hard. 19:47.730 --> 19:53.530 You're definitely better off selling for 80 million bucks in two years. 19:53.530 --> 19:56.430 Now, that's also, that magic outcome is hard to do. 19:56.430 --> 19:59.430 And I'm picking deliberately simplistic examples. 19:59.490 --> 20:12.030 But when you are pretty sure that you have a point solution, I think as John referred to, that solves a really difficult problem that's a quote unquote awesome family business. 20:12.030 --> 20:19.350 Makes $10 or $15 million a year with great cash flow for you and your friends. 20:19.810 --> 20:24.530 That's probably not a business that you want to take venture capital for. 20:24.530 --> 20:27.250 There's no reason for you guys to dilute yourselves. 20:27.250 --> 20:29.290 If you need money, take angel money. 20:29.290 --> 20:31.370 Keep 80% of your equity. 20:31.690 --> 20:41.050 And, you know, when one of the big bruisers panics and realizes they need this point solution and pays you a hundred million bucks, laugh all the way to the bank. 20:41.270 --> 20:53.150 If you are doing one of these global platforms that John and Ping alluded to, the kind of thing I alluded to, like replacing all of RSA, then you probably need venture capital. 20:53.150 --> 21:04.370 You probably need people who have been through it before, whether they're CEOs like John or other former operating guys like Ping to help you build that gigantic business. 21:04.530 --> 21:07.170 So that's kind of how I see the world. 21:07.170 --> 21:12.490 I'll give two examples to kind of put a finer point to what Matt's saying. 21:12.930 --> 21:15.410 The answer isn't always venture capital. 21:15.750 --> 21:21.670 We are currently investors in a company called Tenable, which is the guys that created Nessus. 21:21.790 --> 21:29.450 And that company was bootstrapped by the founders for I think five, six years before we even put any money into the company. 21:29.450 --> 21:31.690 And it was profitable, growing very rapidly. 21:31.690 --> 21:34.470 Nessus is a very popular vulnerability scanning tool. 21:34.890 --> 21:39.310 And they didn't need the money because the business could fund itself. 21:39.330 --> 21:44.950 And they didn't need someone like myself because they knew they didn't need those resources in the network to grow their business. 21:44.950 --> 21:46.270 It was growing very fine. 21:46.450 --> 21:55.010 And in the last year or so, they decided they saw a larger opportunity around going global, about attacking, extending the product line where they needed additional capital. 21:55.010 --> 22:01.730 More importantly, they needed a partner that knew and had experience in expanding the business in ways they haven't expanded before. 22:01.870 --> 22:10.710 So the decision to make and take venture capital was less about the money, since the business is profitable, but more about the expertise and value add a partner can bring. 22:10.950 --> 22:14.650 In the case of John Herring Lookout, it was very different, right? 22:14.650 --> 22:30.990 Obviously from the very beginning, they were going after an exploding market in the mobile security space where speed to market, time to market and getting out ahead of the mobile platform, which is getting innovated by Google and Apple, was a precondition they just had to deal with from day one. 22:31.170 --> 22:39.750 Venture capital was needed to accelerate the business and also helping scale a team and do a lot of other things around company building was needed day one. 22:39.750 --> 22:41.510 So I think it all really depends. 22:41.510 --> 22:47.030 And I don't believe for the majority of the businesses out there that you require venture capital. 22:47.030 --> 22:50.930 I think it's something that you should look at deeply before you take money. 22:50.930 --> 22:56.470 Because as Matt says, once you take money from another partner, it's a partnership. 22:56.470 --> 22:58.510 And it's not a sole proprietorship anymore. 22:58.510 --> 23:00.370 That's a very big transition. 23:00.810 --> 23:04.150 So I think it really depends on the opportunity and what you want to do. 23:04.570 --> 23:19.070 If I could jump in, I think Ping makes a great point that sometimes there's a perception that what venture capital is, is you get money and then the VC comes to your board meeting hoping you're doing well. 23:19.630 --> 23:22.010 And that's... We do that though. 23:24.950 --> 23:35.610 You really do, in the early stages, if you do decide to accept venture funding, you really do need to look for a partner. 23:35.610 --> 23:43.350 You really do need to look for a firm that has people and services that will add value to what you're trying to do. 23:43.350 --> 23:47.470 I mean, these firms you see up here are all firms that have done a lot in security. 23:47.770 --> 23:52.690 So obviously we all have resources that help you be successful. 23:52.690 --> 24:17.310 At Andreessen Horowitz we have a thing called the Executive Briefing Center that John knows about that we bring in chief security officers and government officials and all sorts of people on a weekly basis and bring in our portfolio companies and they get to present to people even before they've released the product to test the market for their idea. 24:18.090 --> 24:25.550 And as they mature, like John's company has, they get to talk to real buyers of the solution. 24:25.890 --> 24:33.450 And that's a real big service that, for example, Andreessen Horowitz we bring for our entrepreneurs. 24:33.450 --> 24:48.350 So to Ping's point, you really do want to pick a partner that's often both the firm and the individual partner at the firm that's going to be your chief liaison and help you grow the company. 24:48.710 --> 24:52.830 And actually I want to chime in and amplify John's point. 24:52.830 --> 24:54.770 It's not just the firm. 24:54.770 --> 24:56.490 It's not brand. 24:57.750 --> 25:06.830 There's a company that John and I actually have in common that's desired right now by a lot of people in the venture capital community. 25:06.970 --> 25:15.470 And they met with one of the very senior guys at one of the top ten firms in the world. 25:15.530 --> 25:29.230 Every Fortune, Forbes article, you know, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, TechCrunch, I mean, however you want to view kind of external validation, this firm had it. 25:29.230 --> 25:31.790 And to some extent this guy had it as well. 25:31.790 --> 25:47.770 And he was such an arrogant dickhead in the meeting that the entrepreneur said, not only will this guy not be helpful, right, I mean, however giant a check he wants to write, but he'll be actively harmful. 25:49.070 --> 26:05.230 And by contrast, and in credit to JJ, the entrepreneur said, look, what I want is somebody like JJ, who's an operating guy, who's done real stuff, who's been through good times and bad times, it can help me move a little further down the road. 26:05.230 --> 26:10.910 He basically said, I want another partner because I'm stuck in the boat with this person for ten years. 26:11.570 --> 26:20.230 And, you know, Ping and his team are successful in this because they act like partners. 26:20.230 --> 26:26.450 And the entrepreneurs that we fund early on like both of these firms because they're happy with them. 26:26.450 --> 26:31.310 We're still waiting for Deepak to start writing checks, so it's a gentle nudge. 26:31.450 --> 26:32.930 We've got a few for you, buddy. 26:34.270 --> 26:38.050 So let me frame this problem, right. 26:38.050 --> 26:39.110 The problem is this. 26:39.110 --> 26:42.870 As an entrepreneur, the odds of failure are far higher than the odds of success. 26:42.870 --> 26:45.510 That's history, that's data, you can read anywhere. 26:46.070 --> 26:54.110 So every step you take, every meeting you go to, everyone you talk to should be able to increase the odds of success. 26:54.930 --> 26:56.710 That's a fundamental underpinning here. 26:56.810 --> 27:02.890 So all the top venture firms I can say, largely speaking, are there to help you to increase the odds of success. 27:06.090 --> 27:09.170 Helping to find the right mentors for you. 27:09.930 --> 27:11.830 Finding a mentor is really, really important. 27:11.830 --> 27:13.190 I never underrate that. 27:13.190 --> 27:16.430 So I think most of the top VC firms can help you do that. 27:17.190 --> 27:24.450 The other thing is, you know, when do you not take venture capital money to your question? 27:24.470 --> 27:35.670 If the business is low risk, for example, one small check that we do is, okay, can a bank lend to this company for expanding their business? 27:35.810 --> 27:36.530 Definitely not. 27:36.530 --> 27:37.950 And it's not a VC investment. 27:37.970 --> 27:41.770 We look for really high risk investments that need to grow really fast. 27:41.850 --> 27:44.630 Banks look for low risk investments that don't grow that fast. 27:44.950 --> 27:52.510 So typically, venture capital money is going to help you go from zero to 10 million to 100 million in like three to four years. 27:52.670 --> 27:55.630 In that situation, venture capital money is a good fit. 27:57.510 --> 28:03.310 So maybe I can share a quick story for those who might be interested and are thinking about starting companies. 28:03.310 --> 28:10.350 On the flip side of all of this, too, is you can hear an infinite amount of no's, but you only need to hear yes once. 28:10.570 --> 28:12.250 And it's really important to keep that in mind. 28:12.250 --> 28:22.870 I remember vividly when we were first getting off the ground, we were doing obscure wireless research and a lot of mobile stuff, and there was not a lot of interest in what we were doing at first. 28:22.870 --> 28:26.310 Ping wrote us a check and a few of our early angels did. 28:26.310 --> 28:31.030 But most of our investors that we pitched did not understand what we were doing at all. 28:31.330 --> 28:38.790 And it's really easy to get depressed when you're running around trying to raise money and everyone is telling you you're basically an idiot. 28:39.650 --> 28:46.310 But having the fortitude to continue on I think is one of the greatest lessons I've ever learned in raising venture capital. 28:46.310 --> 28:48.330 And it never gets easier. 28:48.330 --> 28:49.430 You just get better. 28:50.030 --> 28:51.810 And hopefully the market is on your side. 28:52.050 --> 29:01.710 But I vividly remember, I don't know if you ‑‑ sometimes it takes, you know, the irrational ‑‑ reasonable people will work on reasonable problems, but consensus, accurate predictions never yield outsized results. 29:01.750 --> 29:03.250 Really important thing to understand. 29:03.250 --> 29:06.010 The outliers come from things that are not obvious. 29:06.250 --> 29:12.270 And unreasonable people will work on unreasonable problems, thus you probably need to be pretty unreasonable to do something amazing. 29:12.610 --> 29:19.770 And this guy, Vinod Khosla, for those who don't know who he is, can be an unreasonable dude and he's very, very brilliant. 29:20.110 --> 29:24.790 Found us in microsystems and I'll never forget we were pitching him and everyone had been telling us no. 29:24.850 --> 29:27.190 And halfway through the meeting he's like, all right, I've heard enough. 29:27.190 --> 29:28.510 I'm like, shit, he's going to throw us out. 29:28.510 --> 29:29.750 This is horrible. 29:30.090 --> 29:31.390 And he's like, I'm in. 29:31.390 --> 29:32.410 What's the valuation? 29:32.410 --> 29:40.470 And he literally wrote us a $5 million check that afternoon and I've never experienced anything like that after hearing no's for just like 50 no's and then something like that happens. 29:40.650 --> 29:52.770 And then not long after that, Excel got involved and the company really started to take off and there's definitely a world where this company never would have even existed if we wouldn't have kept going, not because we were there to make money and not because we were there to build a business, 29:52.770 --> 29:54.250 because we love what we do. 29:54.250 --> 29:58.150 I mean, there's 140 people at DEF CON from Lookout. 29:58.150 --> 30:01.290 We're a much bigger company now and it's who we are. 30:01.290 --> 30:03.370 Nothing's changed, even when we're a lot bigger. 30:03.370 --> 30:04.870 That's really exciting to me. 30:04.970 --> 30:12.530 So I think it's something really important to think about as everyone here starts businesses is the foundations of passion and it's a lot about having the fortitude to keep going. 30:13.210 --> 30:19.770 So my question for this group is how do you think about spotting the nonobvious investments? 30:19.770 --> 30:31.870 Like when you see deals that you're willing to make a nonobvious investment in, I'm curious, Ping, I know you've done a bunch of these, what are the things that you look for in an entrepreneur when you're willing to make a bet that seems really out there? 30:31.870 --> 30:40.590 Yeah, I think the ‑‑ at least the way we think about it, the venture guys don't come up with the ideas. 30:40.810 --> 30:43.190 We never confuse ourselves with the entrepreneurs. 30:43.250 --> 30:48.290 So what we look for is for the entrepreneurs to provide that inspiration. 30:48.670 --> 30:52.950 And it really is from going out and talking to as many entrepreneurs as you can. 30:52.950 --> 30:58.790 The reason I'm at DEF CON isn't because I'm going to win, you know, any hack competition or anything like that. 30:58.790 --> 31:06.930 It's because I can spend time with what I think are really smart people that are thinking about things 10, 15 steps ahead of what I'm thinking about. 31:06.950 --> 31:12.830 And our job as venture guys is just to identify those people that have those insights. 31:12.970 --> 31:21.650 So it's really in some ways I always say, like, the best entrepreneurs are the ones that convince me that doing the impossible is actually possible. 31:21.650 --> 31:24.750 Because we sit there every day and we see hundreds of ideas. 31:24.810 --> 31:27.130 And there's thousands of things wrong with every idea. 31:27.130 --> 31:37.970 But there's always that one entrepreneur that comes through the door and for some reason every question you ask of him or her, the answer comes back in such a way that you're like, wow, this guy may actually pull this off. 31:38.070 --> 31:41.310 And I'm like, that is really actually possible what he just said. 31:41.310 --> 31:46.510 And no matter how you poke and prod at them, they've thought through every single angle of the problem. 31:46.510 --> 31:52.190 I can't tell you how thoughtful the entrepreneur are that we back in whatever space they're in. 31:52.190 --> 31:54.730 It could be big data, cloud, security, mobile. 31:54.770 --> 31:58.570 They've literally thought through every single possible permutation of the problem. 31:58.570 --> 32:03.130 From the customer's angle, from the business model, to every single angle. 32:03.130 --> 32:05.430 And it's really that that kind of gives us conviction. 32:05.430 --> 32:09.550 Not to say they have all the answers, but they've thought through all the problems in the questions. 32:09.550 --> 32:18.550 So that's kind of how we end up finding ourselves backing entrepreneurs, oftentimes in spaces that we did not have any idea or know anything about before we worked with that entrepreneur. 32:19.290 --> 32:23.090 I would actually echo that. 32:23.090 --> 32:32.690 I joked earlier in the kids' presentation where we're trying to drive our investment limit down to 9-year-olds. 32:32.930 --> 32:34.450 We're working hard on this. 32:34.510 --> 32:35.710 There's no law against that. 32:35.710 --> 32:36.610 Yeah, there isn't. 32:36.610 --> 32:41.170 It's not child labor as long as the LLC is in the dad or mom's name. 32:46.770 --> 32:55.890 So kidding aside, what I said there is I want entrepreneurs who will make me feel like a moron. 32:55.990 --> 32:59.990 And my wife would say that's actually not very hard. 33:00.110 --> 33:16.790 But what I would say is, to Ping's point, you can be in a meeting with an entrepreneur, and I've watched this process both at Excel and Andreessen Horowitz and in my own career and deals we have in common. 33:17.390 --> 33:19.530 You think you're being very clever. 33:20.150 --> 33:30.670 The entrepreneur, I'll pick a fairly abstruse example, the entrepreneur is doing something that for some reason involves zero knowledge proofs. 33:31.170 --> 33:32.330 Maybe it's a hobby of yours. 33:32.330 --> 33:44.750 You read a couple of the Scientific American articles about it or IEEE spectrum or ACM proceedings, thingamajiggy, and you think you've actually caught this person out. 33:44.750 --> 33:46.870 And they're nine steps ahead of you. 33:46.870 --> 34:01.850 And by the way, everything else that you ask, you have the sense as the big baller VC that you're a child that this person is patiently explaining how the world really works. 34:02.010 --> 34:19.210 And that's when, as empirical as we try to make VC, that's when you get the gut feeling, especially if the person is passionate and engaged and driven about what they're doing, that this is a human being that you can back. 34:19.330 --> 34:27.830 That they have this combination of, as Ping said, all the answers, but the fire in the belly to go through with it. 34:28.050 --> 34:41.770 And, you know, John, you come across as a fairly quiet guy, but clearly you had the fire in the belly as well as all the answers when Vinod stopped you halfway through. 34:42.790 --> 34:47.270 One more thing is, we're wrong all the freaking time. 34:47.270 --> 35:03.730 So to John's earlier point, or his earlier story, you can't look at a VC saying no as a valid condemnation of your dream or objective or goals. 35:03.730 --> 35:14.390 You have to look at it as a fallible human being or group of human beings with incomplete data making the best literal guess that they can. 35:14.710 --> 35:16.850 And by the way, no's are good. 35:16.850 --> 35:27.330 I mean, one of the things that we brought ourselves on is, no matter how crazy the idea, we will write a couple of paragraphs that explain in detail our decision making for the no. 35:27.630 --> 35:30.690 We never send an email saying, yeah, it's just not a fit. 35:30.690 --> 35:31.310 All right. 35:31.310 --> 35:32.430 Check you later. 35:33.230 --> 35:44.130 We say, hey, look, you know, you had this product flaw and we talked to the four customers you asked us to and they were lukewarm and, you know, you have 17 competitors and you only listed four. 35:44.130 --> 35:46.530 The market may be more crowded than you think. 35:46.970 --> 35:55.850 And a lot of the time we get a thank you instead of an FU even when we say no because it's actually useful for the entrepreneur. 35:58.230 --> 36:01.150 I've always wanted to do that. 36:01.150 --> 36:02.650 I do a lot of panels. 36:02.650 --> 36:05.090 First time I could say fuck. 36:05.850 --> 36:07.770 I just wanted to get that out. 36:11.970 --> 36:23.370 I guess being luckier because I've had entrepreneurs on occasion invent entirely new mathematical symbologies to tell me how bad they wanted me to fuck myself. 36:26.650 --> 36:28.330 But John's absolutely right. 36:28.330 --> 36:30.610 You can take a no as definitive. 36:31.710 --> 36:43.710 And I think when you do get a no, the one piece of feedback that I have for everybody in this room is demand the reasoning behind it and use it to go strengthen your pitch. 36:44.450 --> 36:45.730 And go see Vinod. 36:45.730 --> 36:48.590 Apparently he writes $5 million checks in less than 30 minutes. 36:48.590 --> 36:51.270 So I think we've got about ten minutes left. 36:51.270 --> 36:52.710 I want to make sure we have time for Q&A. 36:52.710 --> 36:56.510 So there's two microphones right there for those who want to ask questions. 36:56.510 --> 36:57.650 We'll start over there. 36:59.450 --> 37:02.290 Let's talk about the logistical process of how you get started. 37:02.330 --> 37:04.510 You've talked about it from a hypothetical. 37:04.750 --> 37:08.030 At what point are people interacting with you? 37:08.030 --> 37:10.570 Is it when they have a full‑fledged product like a prototype? 37:10.570 --> 37:12.610 Obviously it's going to be different from hardware software. 37:12.610 --> 37:15.550 Hardware is going to have a lot more capital expenditure to begin with. 37:15.550 --> 37:20.310 Let's talk about some of the logistics of how they would interact with you to contact you guys. 37:20.930 --> 37:34.490 Well, the ‑‑ so from my personal experience, not as a VC, but as someone who started a company, I don't ‑‑ I don't think you ‑‑ I don't think you need to wait at all. 37:34.490 --> 37:47.470 I think you can start building relationships with VCs by, you know, you get introduced or you introduce yourself and you simply say I have a concept I'd like to talk to you about. 37:47.610 --> 37:54.250 Most VCs to ‑‑ I think Ping said it earlier, want to talk to as many entrepreneurs as possible. 37:54.610 --> 38:02.470 And you can come in and say I'm not ready to raise money yet, but I just want to test the waters with you with this kind of concept. 38:02.990 --> 38:27.690 And good VCs will not only, you know, test the waters with you, but they'll give you advice about, you know, you're thinking about this right, but have you thought about what your cofounders would look like or, you know, one thing that I tend to tell a lot of people is you can't just invent a product without thinking about how you're going to get that product into customer's hands early on. 38:27.690 --> 38:36.730 Like you don't want to build this huge monolithic thing, I'll give you an example, that requires an appliance and an agent on every end point. 38:36.830 --> 38:39.750 You know, it's just not going to get sold. 38:39.810 --> 38:47.610 It may solve a problem, but it's no one buys technology now that requires something implemented on every end point. 38:47.770 --> 38:49.870 So, yeah, you don't need to wait. 38:49.870 --> 38:58.950 You can start the process right away and don't be afraid that, oh, shit, I didn't have a great... this is the place you can swear, right? 38:59.890 --> 39:05.390 I didn't have a great meeting, so now I screwed my relationship with that particular VC. 39:05.390 --> 39:09.830 If you did, then that VC is not the right VC anyway. 39:10.070 --> 39:11.270 On the left. 39:13.430 --> 39:14.270 Hello? 39:14.350 --> 39:14.610 Okay. 39:14.610 --> 39:15.450 So here it is. 39:15.450 --> 39:16.910 Talk about the impossibility. 39:17.370 --> 39:18.250 So I'm from New Jersey. 39:18.250 --> 39:20.250 You've ever heard the expression waste management? 39:20.690 --> 39:22.810 Guys from New Jersey and New York, what business are you in? 39:22.810 --> 39:23.710 Waste management? 39:24.030 --> 39:29.930 So I'm in the business of eliminating and killing and crushing foreign adversaries for child pornography. 39:30.470 --> 39:40.110 Now, that's an impossible attempt to go against foreign adversaries, organized crime figures, people who actually don't want to actually step up to the plate. 39:40.110 --> 39:42.090 So I'm in the waste removal business. 39:42.670 --> 39:44.790 Something that nobody can say no to. 39:45.090 --> 39:47.570 Because if you say no, you're saying no to helping kids. 39:47.790 --> 39:50.070 I challenge the panel right here, right now. 39:50.250 --> 39:51.290 I got the technology. 39:51.290 --> 39:52.490 I got streaming data. 39:52.490 --> 39:53.770 I got security. 39:53.770 --> 39:57.330 I got everything you can possibly imagine to get these people off the streets. 39:57.370 --> 40:01.150 Russians are making $8 billion a year just in child pornography alone. 40:01.150 --> 40:05.410 And they're selling it through cyber security and other areas under the radar. 40:06.530 --> 40:14.270 So what do you guys think about addressing an issue that actually collectively helps save the youth of the nation that people say it's impossible to do? 40:14.870 --> 40:16.810 Who says it's impossible? 40:17.110 --> 40:24.370 Everybody says it's impossible to address because nobody wants to address the issue because of the ugliness of the intellectual property and the issue that goes along with it. 40:24.370 --> 40:27.950 Nobody wants to stare at 80 million kids being raped. 40:28.510 --> 40:42.150 In video alone, nobody wants to go through the process, filter it, decipher it and put it in the right position and remove it and try to figure out how to get it out of the hands of people who then would actually not want to have it or have it creep up on social media. 40:42.830 --> 40:44.210 So two comments. 40:44.210 --> 40:47.990 One, it is sunnier in California. 40:47.990 --> 40:52.010 I think we got a better attitude about the impossible than maybe in Secaucus. 40:52.130 --> 40:53.590 So come visit. 40:54.070 --> 40:57.630 The second thing I can't speak to my fellow panelists. 40:57.630 --> 40:59.630 I know some of them had tight schedules. 41:00.610 --> 41:07.170 But I will come find you and I will listen for ten minutes to your impossible idea and I will give you the best advice that I can. 41:07.610 --> 41:09.590 Any other opinion on the panel? 41:10.330 --> 41:12.750 I'll be outside right afterwards. 41:13.350 --> 41:15.230 Is it just you or nobody else has any comments? 41:15.230 --> 41:17.090 I have no idea what my colleagues can do. 41:17.090 --> 41:18.490 But I will step up. 41:18.490 --> 41:18.990 Great. 41:18.990 --> 41:19.970 Over here on the right. 41:20.250 --> 41:21.090 Yes. 41:21.170 --> 41:22.210 Hello. 41:22.790 --> 41:26.590 I'm an internet veteran from decades back. 41:26.590 --> 41:31.350 And my question is, when are ideas too big for you guys to be interested in? 41:31.350 --> 41:34.990 I heard earlier on you talked about Cypher Cloud, something like that. 41:34.990 --> 41:49.110 Well, I come from maybe a slightly different alternate universe from this crowd, from the standards field and there's this, gone through this multiple times in the past, but currently there's something called DNSSEC, could be a platform for a whole bunch of security, 41:49.110 --> 41:52.810 solving a lot of problems, maybe eating some security vendors' lunch as well. 41:53.050 --> 42:06.110 And I've heard when I'm looking for interest from investors, not to make money myself, but to make this stuff happen, I get, well, you know, Rick, that's a big play. 42:06.110 --> 42:06.970 That's too big. 42:06.970 --> 42:07.790 That's too rich. 42:07.790 --> 42:14.210 And so you were talking about looking for the, I understand maybe it's one out of ten, then you're doing really good if you're successful. 42:14.210 --> 42:24.750 So I understand risk is not something you're afraid of, but I'd like to get maybe one sentence, short little response about when is something not appealing at all to you guys? 42:25.290 --> 42:26.270 That's just too big. 42:26.270 --> 42:26.950 Thanks. 42:27.990 --> 42:36.390 Well, I couldn't hear everything, but just your question about when is something too big, there really isn't anything too big. 42:36.390 --> 42:41.590 And when you're in the venture capital business, we're about finding big opportunities. 42:41.590 --> 42:48.870 I think the thing that I would think about with your particular opportunity is to actually break the problem down into smaller pieces. 42:48.870 --> 42:52.890 Don't try to solve the end state right from the beginning. 42:52.890 --> 43:02.470 I think a lot of entrepreneurs see the end state, but the market or the industry may not be as far along as where you want it to be. 43:02.470 --> 43:12.730 So one of the failure modes we've seen in a lot of companies is being too early to a market and just making sure that you line yourselves up with market realities. 43:12.730 --> 43:14.030 It will play out over time. 43:14.030 --> 43:17.090 Sometimes things take longer or they take a path that's slightly different. 43:17.230 --> 43:22.830 So the end state is usually bigger than what anyone imagines, but how you get there sometimes is very different. 43:22.830 --> 43:27.010 I think a lot of people try to do the big thing first. 43:27.590 --> 43:29.330 So be patient, I guess. 43:29.770 --> 43:30.810 Great, thanks. 43:30.810 --> 43:31.450 Okay. 43:32.410 --> 43:36.130 So I'm one of these people that has an idea. 43:36.310 --> 43:38.470 I'm not ready to come to venture capital yet. 43:38.470 --> 43:50.450 And because what I'm working on is two-factor authentication, behavior and bio in one fell swoop, I'm going to need to put an end point on every ‑‑ an appliance on every end point. 43:50.450 --> 43:52.650 Unfortunately that's just the nature of the beast. 43:52.650 --> 43:56.230 How do I ‑‑ it requires software and hardware. 43:56.230 --> 43:58.630 The hardware has been invented but not in the right size. 43:58.630 --> 44:02.450 And the software, somebody could program it, that's not me. 44:02.530 --> 44:11.130 How do I get it to a point where I can bring it to somebody to get some money so I can hire someone to build the hardware the size I need it and do the programming? 44:11.130 --> 44:12.690 Because I don't have the money. 44:12.790 --> 44:15.070 How do I get it to a point where I can get some help? 44:15.110 --> 44:17.610 You can come today and then we can talk about it. 44:17.610 --> 44:32.330 And I'm sure the ‑‑ to an earlier point here, it's okay to go to VCs before you are ready, before the product is in the market, so we can give you advice on what we have seen on how to bring this product to market. 44:32.370 --> 44:34.410 I'm assuming I need to have you sign an NDA? 44:34.950 --> 44:36.230 VCs don't do that. 44:36.230 --> 44:38.010 Yeah, we normally do not sign NDAs. 44:38.670 --> 44:40.990 Maybe I can chime in here. 44:40.990 --> 44:41.530 Okay. 44:42.650 --> 44:43.610 A couple things. 44:43.610 --> 45:04.670 One, the only purpose of an NDA that you can argue for is actually in the first to file patent regime which would be to protect you from future claims by somebody that you'd exposed your information in public and therefore you couldn't patent it. 45:04.670 --> 45:13.070 As it turns out, if you're talking to somebody about financing your company, there's an exemption in the law for that that applies internationally. 45:13.070 --> 45:18.490 So you're not jeopardizing your patents by talking to a VC under first to file. 45:18.490 --> 45:38.050 And VCs can't sign NDAs because all it takes is a small handful of surly people filing nuisance lawsuits and not our money but our time is then so consumed in that kind of litigious regime that VCs would just stop investing in promising young companies. 45:38.050 --> 45:47.350 So literally to protect, to achieve herd immunity, not signing NDAs is a form of vaccination. 45:47.350 --> 45:55.170 As far as what you want to do, even if it's not the right thing for a VC, there's Kickstarter and a whole bunch of other crowdfunding stuff. 45:55.230 --> 45:56.910 There is Angel List. 45:56.910 --> 45:58.210 We know the guy as well there. 45:58.210 --> 46:00.750 We're actually investors in that platform. 46:01.510 --> 46:05.990 That's an awesome way of getting like‑minded people to back you. 46:06.470 --> 46:07.190 And you know what? 46:07.190 --> 46:27.290 I don't know exactly what you're doing, but if you showed up and said, you know, hey, I've got something that plugs into a USB port or works over low power Bluetooth, next generation laptops, and I can provide bulletproof, authenticatable security locked to an individual human being, 46:27.290 --> 46:32.890 you know, maybe that's my sign‑in for, you know, my true crypt. 46:33.290 --> 46:35.790 I can unlock true crypt with your gizmo. 46:35.790 --> 46:36.510 You're right with me. 46:36.510 --> 46:37.330 Keep going. 46:38.250 --> 46:46.850 There's half a million dollars of human beings interested in that on Angel List or Kickstarter without a huge amount of effort. 46:46.850 --> 46:48.270 So I say go for it. 46:48.710 --> 46:51.070 Matt's going to write you a $5 million check. 46:52.710 --> 46:55.570 You need another 30 minutes before I raise you the $5 million. 46:55.750 --> 46:57.230 I'll make the time. 46:57.810 --> 47:01.810 Unfortunately we're out of time, but I know the panelists will probably be up here after for questions. 47:01.810 --> 47:04.630 So anyone who does have questions, just come on up and grab the panelists after. 47:04.630 --> 47:05.490 Let's thank everybody. 47:05.490 --> 47:06.290 Appreciate it.