1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,480 Thank you and welcome. When people hear that we're doing a talk on psychoactive chemicals 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:12,000 in combat, the first response was usually, ooh, drugs, yay. However, the fact is that 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:18,800 we have caffeine, alcohol, and nicotine already being three major psychoactive substances 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,360 that are being used consistently throughout our society legally in order to help people 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:32,440 function or sometimes function less. In terms of psychoactive chemicals, the major classes 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:37,980 roughly are stimulants, depressants, antipsychotics, and hallucinogenics. And then there's sort 7 00:00:37,980 --> 00:00:43,060 of a crossover, as you can see by this Venn diagram, of effects that you see that create 8 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:48,760 sort of the subclasses, if you will, that we'll be talking about to some degree. When 9 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,340 trying to find out what the classes are, it turns out that there aren't, there isn't 10 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,420 really a consistent classification used for them. So this is as close as, and kludgy, 11 00:00:58,480 --> 00:00:58,940 as it gets. 12 00:00:59,380 --> 00:01:04,160 Yeah, and worth noting, classifying by effects can make it easier for kind of the layman 13 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:08,940 to understand. But the big issue with that, too, is the variability in individual response 14 00:01:08,940 --> 00:01:14,660 to different drugs. A good example would be like people with ADHD's response to Adderall, 15 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,640 where they find it more calming, making it easier to focus. 16 00:01:17,820 --> 00:01:19,240 Likes per thumb, please! 17 00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:23,340 As opposed to most people taking Adderall. 18 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,160 Adderall, where it just amps them up and jacks them up. The other kind of more technically 19 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,940 precise method would be by actual chemical structure. The issue with that being unless 20 00:01:32,940 --> 00:01:37,100 you're, you know, really into and reading about structure-activity relationships and 21 00:01:37,100 --> 00:01:39,280 stuff, most people can get lost with that pretty easily. 22 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:48,720 When we decided to talk about this topic, we had to limit the scope as a result. We 23 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,280 ended up defining it as we're looking to look at the experiments where psychoactive drugs, 24 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,780 psychoactive drugs were conducted by the military, either while at war or in preparation 25 00:01:56,780 --> 00:02:02,180 for war. This also, as the research continued, it ended up involving the self-experiments 26 00:02:02,180 --> 00:02:08,240 by military personnel, and looking at, to some extent, the long-term outcomes of these 27 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:09,180 military human experiments. 28 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:16,860 The first way that the military would like to use psychoactive drugs, of course, is weaponizing. 29 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:22,520 It's kind of one of the purposes of the military is to have weapons on hand to be used. One 30 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:23,040 of the first... 31 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:29,960 examples we'd like to talk about is the Moscow hostage crisis in 2002. There were 850 hostages 32 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:36,340 and 40 terrorists in a theater in Moscow. The Russian officials pumped in an incapacitating 33 00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:41,100 gas and then went into a two-hour firefight, killing all of the terrorists. Unfortunately, 34 00:02:41,260 --> 00:02:47,460 130 of the hostages also died, mostly due to the fact that the incapacitating gas hit 35 00:02:47,460 --> 00:02:52,560 them in different ways. Also, because the hospitals were never informed of exactly what 36 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:53,280 that gas is. 37 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,500 That's why we're calling it the incapacitating gas, and not actually referencing what it 38 00:02:56,500 --> 00:02:58,940 is. To this day, the authorities have never confirmed what it is. 39 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,620 There was some testing that was done on the clothing of people who were in the theater 40 00:03:03,620 --> 00:03:09,680 at the time, some of the hostages. They did find traces of fentanyl analogs. For those 41 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,640 who aren't familiar, fentanyl is a synthetic opiate. Depending on the analog, a couple 42 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:18,960 hundred to a couple thousand times as potent as morphine. You're talking about a microgram 43 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:19,200 dose. 44 00:03:21,780 --> 00:03:23,260 Quite a few of the deaths have been reported. There have been a number of deaths in the 45 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:28,680 past that have been attributed to the doctors not knowing how to treat the overdose. Because 46 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:34,840 they weren't given any information on what the drug was, they might have seen the symptoms 47 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:41,260 and assumed it's an opiate overdose, these are the symptoms of an opiate overdose. Unfortunately, 48 00:03:41,500 --> 00:03:45,960 with fentanyl and with its derivatives, because it's so much more potent than your standard 49 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,160 opiate, a lot of the tools that would be used to treat an opiate overdose would not 50 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:50,860 be as effective. 51 00:03:51,740 --> 00:03:57,180 With more information, there probably would have been a lot more lives saved in that 52 00:03:57,180 --> 00:03:57,500 incident. 53 00:03:58,900 --> 00:04:03,780 The next incident we would like to talk about is Project Coast, which took place basically 54 00:04:03,780 --> 00:04:09,160 in the 80s through 90s. It was the South Africa's chemical and biological weapons 55 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:15,560 program. They were mostly dedicated to conventional testing, but they did have a small program 56 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,840 that was looking at weaponizing drugs like MDMA, Quaaludes, BZ. Then they also started 57 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:27,540 to look into developing non-lethal incapacitants for riot control. Unfortunately, the methodology 58 00:04:27,540 --> 00:04:37,220 there was not as successful as they had hoped, and as a result, the project really just ended 59 00:04:37,220 --> 00:04:41,960 up putting a chunk of those drugs out into the community. Then the head of the project, 60 00:04:42,020 --> 00:04:46,320 in addition to that graft, was also giving South African agents the sedatives in order 61 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,840 to aid in the abductions and assassinations. Unfortunately, it was usually not as effective, 62 00:04:52,260 --> 00:04:56,640 so they ended up either having to up the dosage to try and make it effective, or just 63 00:04:57,260 --> 00:04:59,440 send it up manually, strangulating people instead. 64 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:04,220 Okay. 65 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,160 I just don't have anything to say right now. 66 00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:12,420 Oh, they want us to trade. Got it. I was just going to project really loudly and let 67 00:05:12,420 --> 00:05:19,480 him have the mic. Apparently we're going to trade back and forth. All right. The military 68 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:28,120 run, U.S. military run, Edward Arsenal is our third one, and that was 1948 to 1975. That 69 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,780 was a very fairly long-running one. It started out doing nerve testing, and then it started 70 00:05:32,780 --> 00:05:39,400 to look into developing the non-lethal alternatives, testing PCP, LSD. There were 7,000 soldiers 71 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:45,340 and 1,000 civilians participating in this program. There was 250 different chemicals 72 00:05:45,340 --> 00:05:50,820 tested. And it was, again, they did not have the necessary equipment. They did not have 73 00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:56,120 great methodology. It was not getting anything resembling good results. 74 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:09,080 I'm totally lost. So, yeah, so worth noting here as well, down at the bottom there, is 75 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,900 that 30% of volunteer hours were spent testing incapacitating agents, which were mainly 76 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:20,340 things like LSD, THC analogs, and then BZ as well, because a large part of the program 77 00:06:20,340 --> 00:06:20,800 was testing. 78 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:23,920 They were testing nerve gases and all that, but a significant amount, much larger than 79 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,760 a lot of other government programs you see, was actually spent testing psychoactive chemicals. 80 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:34,420 And for those who aren't familiar, BZ is a chemical. It's a, how do we pronounce that? 81 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:43,040 Antichologenic. It has sort of a deliriant effect. It's similar to scolopamine, atrophine, 82 00:06:43,060 --> 00:06:49,500 or high doses of diphenhydramine, really unpleasant stuff. And then also, they investigated all 83 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:55,400 of these chemicals, just to give you an idea of, like, how much they cared about the people 84 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,800 exposed to these things. BZ was the one they pursued the most, getting to the point of 85 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,940 actually manufacturing, like, artillery rounds to disperse it. It was never used, but that 86 00:07:04,940 --> 00:07:06,820 was the one that they actually saw the most promise in. 87 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,900 This is also one of the first cases where we clearly saw that the long-term effects 88 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:19,000 of experiments like this were not really treated well. 89 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:24,640 It was ignored for a while, and then they finally got around to acknowledging it years later, 90 00:07:24,740 --> 00:07:30,280 and started to work with the veterans at that point to inform them about what was going on. 91 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,420 The lack of informed consent and the lack of follow-up are two ongoing problems throughout 92 00:07:35,420 --> 00:07:40,300 most of these projects. This is especially true when we talk about the next one, MK Ultra. 93 00:07:41,260 --> 00:07:46,620 You knew it would have to appear on this list. It's the U.S. Army Chemical Corps coordinated 94 00:07:46,620 --> 00:07:48,980 with the CIA, which is how it fits in. 95 00:07:50,820 --> 00:07:56,680 It's just infamous for its investigations into mind control, interrogation, truth serums, 96 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,380 while using the psychedelics and other drugs. However, it was racked with ethical violations 97 00:08:01,380 --> 00:08:06,620 in the selection and treatment of test subjects, especially in terms of they were willing to 98 00:08:07,340 --> 00:08:12,600 target refugees, prisoners of war. They took strangers and dosed them without their knowledge. 99 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:18,980 This was not a well-run, over-umbrella program. The experiments lacked purpose, and the 100 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,640 many of the records ended up being destroyed, no doubt, to the numerous ethical violations. 101 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:27,900 There were 80 institutions involved in the program, 44 of which were colleges and universities. 102 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:33,760 So this wasn't just a small little undercover op that happened briefly. It was an ongoing program 103 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:40,540 with 149 sub-projects, and yet the data is mostly not there because they destroyed it, 104 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:45,220 and the records, financial and otherwise, that we have that help kind of indicate what was going on. 105 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:46,680 Not good. Not good. 106 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:48,920 Any additional? 107 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:57,020 When we look at projects like this and the historical attempt to weaponize psychoactive drugs, 108 00:08:57,260 --> 00:09:01,380 what we run into is that there just aren't that many situations where they're truly useful. 109 00:09:02,780 --> 00:09:09,300 Trying to incapacitate a crowd could be useful, but there's no consistent reaction to the psychoactive agents. 110 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:13,020 And when you're trying to hit a crowd, you don't know how old they are, how much they weigh, 111 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,200 and because the delivery and the dispersal is difficult, 112 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:17,220 it's going to be uneven. 113 00:09:17,460 --> 00:09:21,540 So you're going to hit an overdose to the little old lady and an underdose to the big hulking guy. 114 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:27,880 And the chances of that overdose are relatively high, as we saw with the Moscow incident. 115 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:33,120 The powerful agents, especially, are too easy to overdose or underdose. 116 00:09:35,820 --> 00:09:37,800 And we see here a few weaponized drugs. 117 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:46,660 Really, we have no, there's no actual official evidence of psychoactives being used in a sort of open context. 118 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:55,340 There are some anecdotes, bits and pieces of it being used in the Middle East over the past 20 years, 119 00:09:55,500 --> 00:09:59,640 maybe during Saddam Hussein's regime. 120 00:09:59,980 --> 00:10:04,960 But in terms of active deployment by major militaries, we just don't see it. 121 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,600 They usually stick with, when they want to put people down and keep them alive, 122 00:10:08,740 --> 00:10:10,440 irritants like tear gas and stuff. 123 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:16,660 And it's also worth noting that another contributing factor to why we don't see weaponized drugs, 124 00:10:16,660 --> 00:10:24,480 is there are a lot of the psychoactive chemicals that would be good candidates for use are also very unstable. 125 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,640 And so when you want to be able to package something, ship it overseas, 126 00:10:28,940 --> 00:10:31,340 have it be able to withstand heat, have it be able to withstand light, 127 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,060 there are not a lot of good candidates for that either. 128 00:10:37,580 --> 00:10:41,480 But when it comes to talking about good candidates, stimulants. 129 00:10:42,340 --> 00:10:46,420 One of the surprises to me was exactly how extensively the military experiments on the troops. 130 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:52,480 And since there is a military, apparently there has been experimenting on the troops, 131 00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:57,020 we've picked up the story in World War II, in the golden age of amphetamines, 132 00:10:57,020 --> 00:11:01,500 when meth just came onto the scene, and Japan and Germany adopted it 133 00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:05,380 and quickly put it into use in both the civilian and military populations. 134 00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:10,240 There was a billion doses produced and used in Japan. 135 00:11:10,700 --> 00:11:16,640 During a short duration of months, we can confirm that 29 million doses, 136 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:22,200 1 million of the pills, and 35 million doses the following year were created. 137 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,100 But these are for short periods of that year. 138 00:11:24,220 --> 00:11:26,920 If you extrapolate it out, they're getting closer to the billion mark themselves. 139 00:11:29,260 --> 00:11:32,920 The stimulants were also being used on the other side. 140 00:11:33,380 --> 00:11:36,900 Once Japan and Germany were using them, 141 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,220 Britain, the US, both the Axis and the Allies thought that that was a fantastic idea. 142 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,040 And there was 60 to 72 million doses 143 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:50,060 of amphetamines that we know of being distributed into the troops. 144 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:56,040 This is an actual war poster, and it just, we don't know what he's on, 145 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:57,280 but he's really feeling it. 146 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:12,680 With World War II ending, the reports that doctors had been putting together 147 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:14,460 and reporting back to the military that, 148 00:12:14,460 --> 00:12:16,880 hey, this is not that great for people to take all the time, 149 00:12:17,060 --> 00:12:21,580 they actually started to pay attention now that the fear of losing the war was ebbing. 150 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,840 And as a result, the militaries actually started to restrict their use. 151 00:12:24,980 --> 00:12:27,600 And they started restricting it to, well, in case of combat, 152 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:29,120 and, oh, well, pilots will need it. 153 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,380 And, you know, there's some special missions where people need to stay awake. 154 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,920 And that became the restriction factor. 155 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,260 The, and that's just basically how it stayed. 156 00:12:39,540 --> 00:12:44,440 The amphetamines of some nature in most militaries were the way to, you know, 157 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,020 stay awake and be able to go on the missions that were needed. 158 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,120 More recently, we've started to see the new stimulants like modafinil. 159 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:53,820 Modafinil's gone through trials with various militaries. 160 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,580 It's only been adopted officially by the U.S. Air Force in 2012. 161 00:12:57,020 --> 00:12:59,600 It's really the only one we saw where they officially said that it was, 162 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:00,440 been added to the roster. 163 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,940 It doesn't mean that more experiments aren't going on, 164 00:13:03,020 --> 00:13:05,860 or it hasn't been supplementing in areas that we don't know about. 165 00:13:06,340 --> 00:13:09,840 The interesting one I thought was that, in addition to the, 166 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:12,820 the other legal way to help troops, 167 00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:14,620 was the rise in prescriptions. 168 00:13:15,380 --> 00:13:18,340 Ritalin and Adderall, the data from a certain time period, 169 00:13:18,420 --> 00:13:21,740 showed that there was a thousand percent increase over five years 170 00:13:21,740 --> 00:13:27,260 of service members being able to have a prescription for essentially stimulants. 171 00:13:27,620 --> 00:13:31,400 And certainly some of them came in from the community needing that prescription, 172 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,480 and it was for that specific medical purpose. 173 00:13:33,860 --> 00:13:36,480 But when it's a thousand percent jump in five years, 174 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:39,360 I feel like that is an area where we might want to research 175 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,980 and see if that's not perhaps a gray area 176 00:13:41,980 --> 00:13:43,660 in which stimulants are being acquired. 177 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,140 The problem with all of the stimulants 178 00:13:49,140 --> 00:13:51,800 is that at some point you also need the depressants 179 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:52,860 and the antipsychotics. 180 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:58,480 Having, having stimulants pumping through people's system 181 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,240 is not the healthiest thing, 182 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,480 and when you combine it in a combat situation, 183 00:14:02,740 --> 00:14:05,280 you start running into psychological conditions. 184 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,160 There's PTSD, the depression, 185 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:09,860 just the general battle fatigue that is, 186 00:14:10,060 --> 00:14:11,960 it may not fully develop 187 00:14:11,980 --> 00:14:14,260 into PTSD, but as the Army has said, 188 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:15,500 every man has their breaking point. 189 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,860 As a result, from pretty early on, 190 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,320 barbiturates and alcohol were legally prescribed 191 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,240 during World War II as part of therapy. 192 00:14:24,460 --> 00:14:26,060 So your therapist is going to get you drunk 193 00:14:26,060 --> 00:14:27,240 and get you to talk about what happened, 194 00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:29,080 because that's how therapy worked then. 195 00:14:29,260 --> 00:14:30,260 It was talk therapy. 196 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:31,840 They thought that if everything was bottled up, 197 00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:35,180 that was actually the big blocker to just moving past the incident. 198 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,660 As time progressed and different therapies developed 199 00:14:40,660 --> 00:14:41,720 and different chemicals developed, 200 00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:44,660 they ended up going more with Thorazine in Vietnam 201 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:47,260 to help with that piece, 202 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,720 which is probably good, 203 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,340 because Vietnam is widely considered 204 00:14:50,340 --> 00:14:54,420 the pharmacological age of the military in some respects, 205 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,640 because there was a lot of drug use going on. 206 00:14:58,540 --> 00:15:00,100 And in Vietnam specifically, 207 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:01,520 we actually see that they deployed 208 00:15:02,540 --> 00:15:06,200 a large contingent of psychiatrists 209 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,660 as part of the medical staff going to Vietnam. 210 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,060 It's the first time, I think, 211 00:15:11,980 --> 00:15:12,660 that at least the U.S. military 212 00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:15,400 was really putting a lot of thought into the 213 00:15:16,980 --> 00:15:19,120 sort of headspace that their soldiers were in, 214 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,500 that they were really trying a little bit harder 215 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:24,640 to manage the mental health of their soldiers. 216 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,720 Probably not very well, 217 00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:29,920 but it's certainly something that they were really starting 218 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,280 to take notice of in this time period. 219 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,500 The last one is one that I don't ever hear talked about, 220 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,380 and that's the fact that the troops do self-experiments, 221 00:15:40,380 --> 00:15:43,920 and there's the caffeine, the nicotine, the alcohol, of course. 222 00:15:43,940 --> 00:15:45,300 That's standard in society, 223 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,080 and then it's certainly standard 224 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,700 and exasperated within the military to some extent. 225 00:15:50,180 --> 00:15:52,980 There's also the illegal or gray use 226 00:15:52,980 --> 00:15:54,820 of heroin, marijuana, opium, 227 00:15:54,820 --> 00:15:56,460 and whatever else they could get their hands on 228 00:15:56,460 --> 00:15:57,040 that would be effective. 229 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,960 And to me, we all know what's happening 230 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,420 to some extent the same way that everyone knows 231 00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:05,080 that people are having coffee every day. 232 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,180 But they don't look at the interactions. 233 00:16:07,420 --> 00:16:09,140 They're pumping them full of stimulants, 234 00:16:09,140 --> 00:16:10,500 and then they're not actually checking to see, 235 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:12,360 well, what does that do when you're taking that much caffeine, 236 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:14,860 that much nicotine, that much alcohol in your sleep depth? 237 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:15,800 What does that do to you? 238 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,600 Those are not questions that I saw being asked, 239 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,280 so that was concerning to me. 240 00:16:24,060 --> 00:16:28,240 When we look at current military and veteran experiments, 241 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,620 we know amphetamines and we know modafinil are being used. 242 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:33,740 We know that Night Eagle is a thing 243 00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:35,900 that the Chinese say might be in existence. 244 00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:38,180 We don't have any data on that, of course, 245 00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:39,880 but it sounds really interesting 246 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,080 and a possible equal to or better than modafinil. 247 00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:45,860 Whether it's propaganda or science fact, 248 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,020 we won't know for a while. 249 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,360 The rest, we don't have the clearance. 250 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:53,580 The modern military is not going to just say, 251 00:16:53,620 --> 00:16:55,560 yes, you can just read up on everything 252 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:56,420 that we're doing right now. 253 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,120 So sadly, this is the very thin section. 254 00:16:59,860 --> 00:17:02,220 The current VA programs that are interesting, 255 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,100 the Million Vet Program, 256 00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:06,560 they're DNA sampling the veterans 257 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,300 and some of the active duty personnel 258 00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:12,160 in an attempt to, I believe it was phrased 259 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:13,460 as improve health services. 260 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,020 Given the way that we've seen 261 00:17:16,020 --> 00:17:17,840 some of the previous military experiments run, 262 00:17:17,980 --> 00:17:20,000 I'm slightly hesitant to say 263 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,520 that that's the best idea I've ever heard. 264 00:17:22,860 --> 00:17:27,360 The one I do like, though, is the MDMA PTSD trials 265 00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:29,880 because in the 70s, they showed that one or two doses 266 00:17:30,540 --> 00:17:35,620 of MDMA in therapy showed great promise 267 00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:38,280 for resolving PTSD issues altogether, 268 00:17:39,020 --> 00:17:40,380 which is amazing. 269 00:17:40,580 --> 00:17:43,640 Through a variety of political and other reasons, 270 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,120 those trials didn't go anywhere until very recently. 271 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:48,500 This year, they were approved to have veterans trial it, 272 00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:50,700 and I'm very much looking forward to those results. 273 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:57,140 And kind of correlating to current MDMA trials 274 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:02,300 and just the slow increase in research 275 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:03,340 in psychedelics and stuff, 276 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:05,460 you see more reports, 277 00:18:05,620 --> 00:18:07,540 more reports of troops self-experimenting 278 00:18:07,540 --> 00:18:09,780 with substances like MDMA, mushrooms, cannabis, 279 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,160 to try to treat PTSD and related issues as well. 280 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,200 And whether that's on the rise 281 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,680 or it's just the reporting's on the rise, 282 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:17,300 we don't really know. 283 00:18:17,420 --> 00:18:19,240 But those kind of things definitely 284 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:20,780 are mirroring each other. 285 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:21,540 Absolutely. 286 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,320 And it's not just the PTSD, 287 00:18:23,540 --> 00:18:26,260 but also the comorbidity of the alcoholism, 288 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:26,620 the depression. 289 00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:28,740 These are all things that they're trying to treat together. 290 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,340 Basically, for our conclusions, 291 00:18:33,340 --> 00:18:35,820 more research is needed just across the board 292 00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:36,420 for a lot of things, 293 00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:37,980 certainly with PTSD and drugs. 294 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,820 As we were alluding to, 295 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:42,580 do these stimulants contribute to PTSD? 296 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,500 That's a question that I don't see being asked, 297 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:46,220 and I want an answer. 298 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:48,000 I would love to see more people answering it. 299 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:49,720 Do the interactions of the drugs 300 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,060 that the military are dispensing 301 00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:52,420 and that the troops are self-administering, 302 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,040 how do those work? 303 00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:57,900 How is this contributing to any number of the ailments 304 00:18:57,900 --> 00:18:59,960 that can happen involving combat scenarios? 305 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,320 And then just how effective is self-medication 306 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:03,380 in self-medication? 307 00:19:03,740 --> 00:19:05,180 We hear about it, 308 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,640 and everyone widely acknowledges 309 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,680 that there is self-medication happening amongst troops, 310 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,440 usually with alcohol and other things, 311 00:19:10,660 --> 00:19:13,480 but no one's looking to see how effective is it? 312 00:19:13,540 --> 00:19:16,060 Is there a way to supplement it or do better with it? 313 00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:18,920 And I think that that's also a fantastic question 314 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:20,040 that should be asked and researched. 315 00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:24,320 In terms of our overall conclusions, 316 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:25,900 I think just greater responsibility. 317 00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:29,400 The military has done an amazing job 318 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:30,920 at acknowledging a lot of the things 319 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:31,580 that they've done wrong, 320 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:32,820 and they try to rectify it. 321 00:19:32,820 --> 00:19:34,380 They still have room for improvement. 322 00:19:34,540 --> 00:19:35,900 We should never be in another situation 323 00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:37,460 where the ends justifies the means, 324 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,140 and we shouldn't have to see the military 325 00:19:41,140 --> 00:19:43,760 failing to provide long-term care follow-up 326 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,760 for experiments that they're doing. 327 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,180 One of the things that I'm not sure how we can resolve 328 00:19:49,180 --> 00:19:51,200 is that there is informed consent. 329 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:53,400 Can't really happen in the military. 330 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,000 The military is in a position of power over the troops, 331 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,520 and the military is providing those troops 332 00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,620 with a mindset that says, 333 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,020 I will do whatever you tell me, 334 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,000 no questions asked. 335 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,340 In addition, even if we want to move past that, 336 00:20:06,780 --> 00:20:11,340 President Clinton signed Executive Order 13139, 337 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,400 which allows the waiving of informed consent 338 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,560 to service members under a very broad definition of it. 339 00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:19,020 It has to be asked for, but it can be granted. 340 00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:21,900 Also, I've had a number of, 341 00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:24,160 I'll call it spontaneous admissions 342 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,700 by a number of veterans when I was talking with them 343 00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:27,460 about this topic, 344 00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:29,420 where they were telling me how, yeah, 345 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:30,580 they were told to present arm, 346 00:20:30,740 --> 00:20:31,780 and they got a shot in the arm, 347 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:31,980 or, you know, 348 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:33,600 or they presented their hand and got pills, 349 00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:35,900 and if they asked what it was, 350 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,300 they might be told maybe. 351 00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:40,100 And to this day, 352 00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:41,280 most of them don't actually know 353 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:42,080 what got put in their bodies. 354 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,540 The last one is just that information dissemination is, 355 00:20:47,740 --> 00:20:49,480 it's critical to be able to do good research, 356 00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:51,380 and the military has classified materials 357 00:20:51,380 --> 00:20:52,680 that we don't know about, 358 00:20:52,820 --> 00:20:55,440 so we don't know if some of our assumptions here are wrong, 359 00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:56,700 because we don't have the data. 360 00:20:56,860 --> 00:20:59,880 We also don't know how those experiments really happened, 361 00:20:59,940 --> 00:21:01,380 because we don't have enough data 362 00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:03,280 on what, if it was peer-reviewed, 363 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:04,760 what were the methodologies, et cetera. 364 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,020 It's a problem. 365 00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:08,140 As the older experiments get declassified, 366 00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:09,600 we get to learn some of those details 367 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,280 and start making some value calls, 368 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,780 but others, we may never know. 369 00:21:13,180 --> 00:21:15,240 That translates over when the civilians 370 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:16,420 who work in that sector 371 00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:20,340 have put up paywalls in the NIH databases, 372 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,760 or because of corporate secrecy and IP, 373 00:21:23,020 --> 00:21:24,740 that they are not going to want to share details 374 00:21:24,740 --> 00:21:26,720 that might be relevant to the research. 375 00:21:27,980 --> 00:21:29,320 The ultimate takeaway, though, 376 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:29,920 is that if this is, 377 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:30,900 we're talking about the government, 378 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,800 and government information and data and experiments, 379 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,780 that that information should be available in some way. 380 00:21:40,860 --> 00:21:41,420 Yep. 381 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:47,480 So, what questions do you have? 382 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,020 Was there anything found on military animals, 383 00:21:59,020 --> 00:22:00,480 like military dogs or anything like that? 384 00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:03,180 Not military dogs. 385 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,360 There were a number of animal tests that were done, 386 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,040 but usually people, 387 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,520 we were mostly focused on the human experiments. 388 00:22:09,860 --> 00:22:10,000 Right. 389 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,160 There was a trial, 390 00:22:12,380 --> 00:22:13,500 trial's not the right word, 391 00:22:13,540 --> 00:22:15,720 there was an experiment that was conducted in China 392 00:22:17,460 --> 00:22:19,160 involving myostatin inhibition in dogs, 393 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:21,300 and it was suggested by the researcher 394 00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:23,820 and his conclusion that one of the possible applications 395 00:22:23,820 --> 00:22:25,320 would be for military or police dogs. 396 00:22:25,620 --> 00:22:25,860 Right. 397 00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:28,720 So, but that's about the most that I think we saw. 398 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,000 Yeah. 399 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:30,100 Interesting. 400 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:32,440 Yeah, I just know like, 401 00:22:32,910 --> 00:22:34,980 like for example Benadryl in a dog 402 00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:36,180 is like four times higher dose. 403 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:38,420 So I wonder like if you're gassing a population 404 00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:39,920 and they've got dogs, 405 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,720 would the dogs go down, would they not? 406 00:22:42,140 --> 00:22:43,880 But it'd be interesting to see if they were, 407 00:22:43,940 --> 00:22:45,060 try to figure that out. 408 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:46,120 That's a good question. 409 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,360 Hi, thanks for the speech. 410 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,880 Are you familiar with DMSO, 411 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:57,780 the drug that allows the transdermal absorption of chemicals? 412 00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:00,400 Has your research shown that, 413 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,880 that's been a heavy part of testing? 414 00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:05,580 I kind of study this area and it's, 415 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,240 there's a lot of people claiming it's being used 416 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,400 in nonconsensual experiments or abuses. 417 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,480 I mean, it's certainly possible it could be used. 418 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:19,580 We didn't see it named anywhere. 419 00:23:20,740 --> 00:23:23,120 Yeah, again back to the having reliable sources piece. 420 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,340 We've seen a lot of very interesting rumors 421 00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:26,320 and terrifying out there, 422 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:27,760 but for things that we don't know, 423 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,040 things that could actually be backed up, 424 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,240 I didn't see anything in that realm. 425 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:31,080 Okay. 426 00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:33,080 Yeah, it's hard to get the hard evidence 427 00:23:33,580 --> 00:23:35,140 without a congressional investigation. 428 00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:41,320 Do you know about any research on traumatic brain injury 429 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,900 and interactions with this? 430 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,860 When you're talking about military population, 431 00:23:45,140 --> 00:23:48,420 there's so many traumatic brain injuries 432 00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:49,400 and in terms of healing, 433 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:51,800 is anybody doing that? 434 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,560 There is some research out there. 435 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,120 It's interesting. 436 00:23:54,620 --> 00:23:56,140 It's very recent. 437 00:23:56,140 --> 00:23:58,480 I want to say the past 10 years especially. 438 00:23:58,660 --> 00:24:02,440 I'm seeing that that specific phrase is being used more and more 439 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,700 when they're talking about PTSD and traumatic brain injury 440 00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:06,700 and the depression. 441 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,620 But the TBI just definitely popped up several times. 442 00:24:10,820 --> 00:24:12,580 But they didn't tease it out as a distinction, 443 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:13,580 which I found interesting. 444 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,400 It was usually here we're trying to treat things 445 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,640 and my focus was more on the PTSD 446 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:19,740 because of the stimulant interaction. 447 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,040 I too would be curious to see if there's a tie at all. 448 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,080 So I think that's a fantastic one. 449 00:24:27,740 --> 00:24:28,140 Thank you. 450 00:24:28,140 --> 00:24:28,940 So I was just wondering, 451 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:29,800 as you know, 452 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,660 I'm one of those spontaneous admissions. 453 00:24:31,940 --> 00:24:32,940 They gave me some pills. 454 00:24:33,020 --> 00:24:34,160 They were like, take these things, right? 455 00:24:35,180 --> 00:24:36,620 So my question would be, 456 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,040 do you know of anybody who, 457 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,800 is there any sort of movement to bring this to light? 458 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:43,600 Because right now, 459 00:24:43,620 --> 00:24:47,280 it's very much like a kind of mythology that exists. 460 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,380 I mean, military guys will trade the stories back and forth, 461 00:24:50,420 --> 00:24:51,440 but when you tell a civilian, 462 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:52,900 they tend to be like, yeah, right. 463 00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:53,780 You know what I mean? 464 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,560 And so is there any sort of movement 465 00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:56,460 to bring this to light 466 00:24:56,460 --> 00:24:58,640 and maybe correct it or rectify that problem? 467 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:00,960 Also, your talk was awesome. 468 00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:04,000 As far as I'm aware, 469 00:25:04,140 --> 00:25:05,540 there's no direct movement for it. 470 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,000 Certainly there's been at times 471 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,360 the government tries to make the correction. 472 00:25:09,620 --> 00:25:10,960 I think that some of the vet programs 473 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:13,240 have sort of made motions in that direction. 474 00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:14,780 I think in particular, 475 00:25:14,860 --> 00:25:18,120 there's an onus on society to be the one to do this 476 00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,700 because we're the ones that have created a military 477 00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:23,320 that takes somebody and teaches them 478 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,060 that they aren't allowed to ask for help. 479 00:25:25,060 --> 00:25:27,240 And then we put them in a situation where they need it. 480 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,660 So I agree that we need to have a push 481 00:25:30,660 --> 00:25:33,140 to try and help those who can't ask for it. 482 00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:37,100 Any other questions? 483 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:40,500 Thank you both very much. 484 00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:40,800 Thank you.