1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,660
everyone we're about getting ready to start with our next panel just a few

2
00:00:05,660 --> 00:00:11,240
quick announcements not sure if everyone's heard but we are in

3
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:15,120
partnership with the O'Reilly security publications and we are going to be

4
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,940
putting together a book about biohacking we will be accepting entries until

5
00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:29,480
January 31st 2018 and these entries will be about a chapter during length and if

6
00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,520
you are or if you are able to put in we are trying to put in on that hard date

7
00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:40,220
for a quick edit and submission for publication hopefully in time to have

8
00:00:40,220 --> 00:00:45,760
copies ready for next year's DEF CON and if you are interested you can email

9
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:53,800
your entry to I'm going to spell it out because I cannot pronounce it H-A-R-A M as in

10
00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,720
Mary capital N as in Nancy zero zero capital R

11
00:00:58,720 --> 00:00:59,120
H-A-R-A M as in Mary capital N as in Nancy zero zero capital R

12
00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:07,780
at protonmail.ch I'll be more than happy to show you how it's written

13
00:01:09,540 --> 00:01:14,740
also we are collaborating with a few other villages this year with the darknet

14
00:01:14,740 --> 00:01:20,240
group we are doing points for the darknet village where if you have an

15
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,900
implant your friend has an implant or if he just make friends with someone today

16
00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:29,460
who has an implant you can scan and get points for the darknet village for security we're letting everyone sign.

17
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,120
everyone know, all it is is just identifying that it is in fact an implant. Any security

18
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:40,640
or information is immediately deleted right after it's scanned. As well, we are working

19
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:48,240
with the IoT Village. They are doing a medical device workshop. If you are interested in

20
00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,360
tinkering around with a few medical devices, definitely head down to their village and

21
00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:54,380
they'll be able to tell you when the workshops are set up.

22
00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:04,820
Finally, we have some lightning talks scheduled for this evening around 7 o'clock. If you

23
00:02:04,820 --> 00:02:09,020
are interested in giving a quick little 10 minute talk, please find one of the core members

24
00:02:09,020 --> 00:02:13,760
wearing a heart here and let them know that you are interested and what the title would

25
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:21,040
be. Now, without further ado, I'd like to get the panel started for ethical implications

26
00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,360
for biohacking. Here as our moderator, I'd like to introduce our panel.

27
00:02:24,380 --> 00:02:28,140
Here one of our original core members with the Biohacking Village, ladies and gentlemen,

28
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:29,080
Amir Kay.

29
00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:36,120
Amir Kay

30
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,120
Hi, everyone. By the way, Nina assures me that that email that Harry keeps giving out

31
00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:46,560
is absolutely not being given to us by the social engineering. That would have been

32
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:47,140
a good one though.

33
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,080
That's my real email.

34
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,820
Yeah. So that's a real email allegedly, if you can believe anyone here.

35
00:02:53,580 --> 00:02:54,060
So...

36
00:02:54,380 --> 00:02:55,520
Yeah, really honest.

37
00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,600
So, by the way, I don't know if you've been curious,

38
00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:00,080
but a lot of you have come to a lot of these talks,

39
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,180
and I know some of you just got out of bed to make here.

40
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,760
The reason we're all tethered, if you're new, you don't know,

41
00:03:06,820 --> 00:03:08,900
but, you know, for potential security reasons,

42
00:03:08,980 --> 00:03:10,240
we don't really use wireless mics,

43
00:03:10,420 --> 00:03:13,080
so it may seem very old school that we're all tethered,

44
00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,920
but just in case you're wondering, you're not familiar with that, that's fine.

45
00:03:16,660 --> 00:03:19,820
The other thing I would say is I've had calls with all the panel.

46
00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:22,080
I know some of their sort of thoughts.

47
00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,600
I'm much more interested, actually, in your thoughts.

48
00:03:24,740 --> 00:03:29,100
So what I asked the panel, and they agreed, was to...

49
00:03:29,100 --> 00:03:31,300
I know your alcohol level's maybe quite high still,

50
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:32,580
but what I would like you to do,

51
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,100
we're going to go and introduce a very great, diverse panel,

52
00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:38,520
but while we're doing that, if you could multitask,

53
00:03:38,540 --> 00:03:41,600
which our friend Adam Gasley will tell us from UCSF you can't do,

54
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,120
but I'm going to ask you the impossible,

55
00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:44,560
which is while you get the intros,

56
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,600
just think about what you would like for us to have talked about,

57
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,420
because I'd like to actually get you to shout that out

58
00:03:51,420 --> 00:03:52,060
to make sure...

59
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,320
All the panel was happy to pivot,

60
00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,740
and so we're interested in really addressing issues that are important to you.

61
00:03:57,860 --> 00:03:59,740
And because we're a very informed audience,

62
00:03:59,980 --> 00:04:02,000
we'd rather talk about things that are important to you

63
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,220
than what we think are as important.

64
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,520
So please think about that while I go through the panel.

65
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,980
So I'm going to get the panel to introduce themselves.

66
00:04:09,180 --> 00:04:11,240
We have Amy first, then Amber, then David.

67
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:12,800
So let's start with you, Amy.

68
00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,000
Can you kind of tell everyone what your background is,

69
00:04:15,020 --> 00:04:15,580
what you're up to?

70
00:04:15,740 --> 00:04:16,400
Yeah, no worries.

71
00:04:16,700 --> 00:04:18,440
So my name is Amy Cruz.

72
00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,100
My background is I have a PhD in neuroscience.

73
00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,500
I'm a former DARPA program manager.

74
00:04:24,980 --> 00:04:27,760
So I've been in the defense industry for quite some time.

75
00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,860
I'm currently the chief scientific officer for the Flatbush Institute.

76
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,540
So you guys may have heard David talk yesterday.

77
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,600
We're an applied neuroscience institute,

78
00:04:37,820 --> 00:04:43,860
so my focus at the moment is taking all the fantastic information

79
00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:45,880
that's already existing in the literature

80
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,400
and the community that we know about

81
00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,100
and actually turning it into applications that people can use.

82
00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:51,440
Thanks.

83
00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:53,440
I'm going to set the bar pretty high for you today,

84
00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:54,360
so I hope you're ready.

85
00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,260
Hi, I'm Amber Case.

86
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,680
I studied a field starting in 1993 called cyborg anthropology,

87
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,480
which is looking at cyborgs and it's really looking

88
00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:12,660
at the extension of how we exist as humans through our tools

89
00:05:12,660 --> 00:05:15,980
and how that changes us over time and how technology

90
00:05:15,980 --> 00:05:17,600
is affecting culture and things like that.

91
00:05:17,740 --> 00:05:21,380
And then I started an conference called Cyborg Camp in 2008,

92
00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:23,540
and that went to a few different places.

93
00:05:23,660 --> 00:05:25,940
We had one at Media Lab, one in Toronto, one in Seattle,

94
00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:28,520
one in Seattle, one in Portland, Oregon.

95
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,520
And of course, one of the sessions in 2010 was an RFID installation,

96
00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,780
which one person volunteered and a few people looked on terrified

97
00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:39,200
and some people were really excited.

98
00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:41,220
And we kind of talked about the implications of that.

99
00:05:41,460 --> 00:05:45,760
I also did a few different residencies, one in Banff, Canada,

100
00:05:45,940 --> 00:05:48,100
where I met somebody who got two RFIDs installed,

101
00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,400
which I thought would be a great idea to confuse.

102
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,180
And then I did a few scanners, two instead of one.

103
00:05:55,140 --> 00:05:58,200
I met a number of different people who had magnets installed

104
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,400
in their hands and tried to talk to them about that.

105
00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:04,060
Right now I spend half of my time between Portland, Oregon

106
00:06:04,060 --> 00:06:05,420
and Cambridge, Massachusetts.

107
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,880
I'm doing some work, I'm doing a fellowship at the MIT Media Lab

108
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:10,880
and the Civic Media Group.

109
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,660
There's a lot of open source and how we can kind of democratize

110
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,560
what's usually shut off from us by all these kind of enhancing technologies.

111
00:06:20,020 --> 00:06:21,920
And then I'm also at the Berkman Klein Center,

112
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,180
for Internet and Society at Berkman Law School,

113
00:06:24,380 --> 00:06:28,600
where we're trying to talk about the real implications of these technologies.

114
00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:30,400
That's all I've got to do for now.

115
00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:31,940
Go ahead.

116
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:35,680
.

117
00:06:38,260 --> 00:06:39,420
I'm David Sheen.

118
00:06:39,540 --> 00:06:40,900
I'm a dog breeder.

119
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,860
I don't have a PhD or anything.

120
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:45,520
.

121
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:47,420
.

122
00:06:51,220 --> 00:06:53,680
The amount of time you save, that's incredible.

123
00:06:54,460 --> 00:06:54,960
.

124
00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:57,980
.

125
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,400
So I'm a dog breeder.

126
00:07:02,540 --> 00:07:05,120
I want to do a better job at it, so I learned genetic engineering.

127
00:07:07,140 --> 00:07:10,380
I built an animal genetic engineering lab for my shed.

128
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,300
And so that's what I've been doing,

129
00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:15,900
and then I kind of got involved with

130
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,900
and all the crazy stuff he's doing.

131
00:07:20,380 --> 00:07:26,380
And sort of crashed out into the rest of the biomagnet community

132
00:07:26,380 --> 00:07:29,120
and everybody in places like here.

133
00:07:29,420 --> 00:07:34,920
And so I've been contracted out by a few different biotech companies

134
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:40,040
to work for them and consulting for biotech companies and stuff.

135
00:07:40,140 --> 00:07:42,620
But it's all kind of crazy.

136
00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:43,280
.

137
00:07:44,300 --> 00:07:45,900
So that's kind of scratched the surface, really,

138
00:07:45,940 --> 00:07:48,880
what these three panel members are up to.

139
00:07:48,980 --> 00:07:51,620
So you can see they're all very interesting things their own way.

140
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,900
So I've got you to think, hopefully.

141
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:54,780
I don't know if you did.

142
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,960
So what I'd like to just hear from people,

143
00:07:57,180 --> 00:07:58,840
there is a mic that's on as well,

144
00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:03,660
but you can shout out why are you here and what you want us to discuss.

145
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,540
Now yesterday many talks and today talked about,

146
00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,120
sort of mentioned the ethical sort of implications.

147
00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:12,960
And it seems that technology is always going to be ahead of the ethical framework.

148
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,660
So, you know, the ethical framework is going to become more and more important, right,

149
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:18,900
as these things really impact our lives.

150
00:08:19,020 --> 00:08:22,620
So I think it's kind of an obvious kind of issue that we have.

151
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,340
Does anyone have any thoughts that issues they would like to have had us discuss

152
00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:30,400
that they thought would impact them and they'd like us to discuss?

153
00:08:30,660 --> 00:08:32,220
Yeah, we've got one here, then we'll come to you.

154
00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:33,460
Oh, I'm sorry.

155
00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:34,480
I thought I was supposed to go to the mic.

156
00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:35,300
Sorry?

157
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:36,280
Is the mic working?

158
00:08:36,820 --> 00:08:37,640
It's supposed to be.

159
00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:37,880
Hold on.

160
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:38,900
Yeah, thanks.

161
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:40,820
It's working now?

162
00:08:40,820 --> 00:08:41,000
Yes.

163
00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:41,840
Thank you.

164
00:08:41,940 --> 00:08:43,440
Sorry, I thought I was supposed to go to the mic.

165
00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:43,800
Yes.

166
00:08:43,860 --> 00:08:44,120
Okay.

167
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:44,760
Okay.

168
00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:45,100
Good.

169
00:08:45,980 --> 00:08:47,420
I'm Victoria Sutton.

170
00:08:47,460 --> 00:08:53,440
I'm giving the workshop on street law for biohackers at the end of this village.

171
00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,300
And I had a question.

172
00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:59,920
I have lots of questions, but one I'd like to ask is, David Ishii,

173
00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:03,440
I read about your interaction and I was wondering,

174
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,380
it wasn't clear if you actually had to deal with FDA or not.

175
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,880
I'd love to hear about your experience.

176
00:09:10,820 --> 00:09:12,520
And how they contacted you.

177
00:09:12,620 --> 00:09:16,280
Did they give you a letter, the usual introductory letter?

178
00:09:16,420 --> 00:09:21,820
Or what did you have to do to deal with them and your interesting project?

179
00:09:22,300 --> 00:09:24,020
David, if you hold on, we'll cover this.

180
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:25,720
So we'll get the ideas and we'll go through them.

181
00:09:25,740 --> 00:09:26,540
I'm making notes, okay?

182
00:09:26,780 --> 00:09:27,280
All righty.

183
00:09:27,340 --> 00:09:28,340
So FDA, David.

184
00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:31,260
Did you have any others you want to tell us about or will that do?

185
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:32,820
You're welcome to give more ideas.

186
00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:34,800
I got a lot, but I don't want to take up.

187
00:09:34,940 --> 00:09:36,520
I'll come up later if you run out.

188
00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:36,900
Okay.

189
00:09:37,540 --> 00:09:37,900
Okay.

190
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:39,160
Thank you.

191
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,760
So as we get more emerging technology,

192
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,980
I'm wondering how patents and ownership go over,

193
00:09:46,020 --> 00:09:48,040
especially when we're talking about things like genetic elements

194
00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,040
or implantable technology that might be done to circumvent EULAs and things.

195
00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,600
How might we create frameworks where we can operate and understand that?

196
00:09:57,780 --> 00:09:58,540
Thank you.

197
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,460
So someone else coming up.

198
00:10:00,620 --> 00:10:01,620
Please feel free.

199
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:08,740
Such polite biohackers.

200
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,760
Not like these other people.

201
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,560
As we get a lot more powerful tools in biohacking,

202
00:10:16,680 --> 00:10:20,000
I'm curious to know what you think the role of the biohacking community is

203
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,520
in terms of leading the conversation about safety,

204
00:10:22,780 --> 00:10:25,860
especially given that regulation is likely to be slow

205
00:10:25,860 --> 00:10:28,440
and the tools are likely to get really powerful.

206
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:30,280
Thank you.

207
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:30,460
Great.

208
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,920
Bringing it down a bit more specifically,

209
00:10:34,140 --> 00:10:39,680
what is your opinions on personalized DNA or personal DNA synthesizers,

210
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,340
citing the fears of their recently synthesized horse pox

211
00:10:44,340 --> 00:10:48,800
and possibly other viruses, gene drives, et cetera?

212
00:10:51,060 --> 00:10:52,040
Keep going.

213
00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:58,620
Amber, I hope that you can comment on the cultural influences on cybernetics,

214
00:10:58,640 --> 00:10:59,080
that is,

215
00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,440
the influences shaping why people are doing these things to their bodies

216
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,620
and what they understand themselves to be doing in context.

217
00:11:08,340 --> 00:11:15,220
So kind of as biohacking advances and as we get more advanced technologies,

218
00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:20,020
just kind of wondering about whether or not you guys think that there will be an elitism

219
00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:24,620
or a dichotomy between those that have these advanced biohacking technologies

220
00:11:24,620 --> 00:11:25,380
and those that don't.

221
00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:27,060
Great.

222
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:27,520
It's interesting.

223
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,900
I'm noticing some of the questions have kind of come up yesterday.

224
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:30,540
Yeah.

225
00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:32,140
We've got one more here.

226
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,140
Mike, then we'll come to you.

227
00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:34,320
One more.

228
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:34,700
Go ahead.

229
00:11:34,780 --> 00:11:39,240
So as we progress from kind of the theoretical ethics of what we're talking about,

230
00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:40,940
what we should and shouldn't be doing,

231
00:11:41,220 --> 00:11:48,080
and we progress towards more normative ethics of imposing rules within a community,

232
00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:53,740
how do you see the different roles between the DEFCON-type biohacking community

233
00:11:54,380 --> 00:11:56,260
and the other organizations

234
00:11:56,260 --> 00:11:58,380
that would impose regulations or norms?

235
00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,540
I'm not sure DEFCON's ever going to impose anything, but go ahead.

236
00:12:03,580 --> 00:12:06,020
If they do, by the way, if they do, we're going to disobey, right?

237
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,880
Well, it's actually a feature I didn't know what I was going to ask.

238
00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:12,740
Well, I would just like to know everybody's thoughts on what do you think about the types of people

239
00:12:12,740 --> 00:12:15,600
who are just like, I don't give a shit about rules, I'm just going to do what I want to do.

240
00:12:17,180 --> 00:12:18,400
I don't give a shit, people.

241
00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:25,220
I don't think I've met anyone like that, definitely.

242
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,740
Let me just, hold on, I'm going to write this down.

243
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:33,120
Fantastic.

244
00:12:39,660 --> 00:12:44,680
And if your brain kicks in, if you're doing some stimulation or something halfway through,

245
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,340
it's still time to ask us to go through things.

246
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:50,420
So maybe we'll start actually with stuff that's come up.

247
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,000
I know we're going to talk about other stuff too, but David, how about starting with you and the FDA?

248
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,480
Have you had interactions with them?

249
00:12:55,660 --> 00:12:56,020
No.

250
00:12:56,260 --> 00:12:58,000
It's easy to still be alive, so, you know.

251
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:00,920
So how much time do we have?

252
00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:09,580
So I contacted the FDA, which, let me tell you, is stupid.

253
00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:21,620
I came into the idea in a pretty naive way, thinking that, okay, well, I'll just, I was learning the techniques,

254
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,840
but, you know, the hard part, right?

255
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,960
And that I would then, you know, do what I needed to do, you know,

256
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,240
because I didn't think things were good.

257
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:31,520
I thought it would be okay.

258
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,060
And I would just go through the regulatory process, and I'd be fine.

259
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:44,580
And at first, actually, it was very nice.

260
00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:48,120
I called them because, like, I started Googling shit.

261
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:53,620
It was like, okay, call this number at the Center for Veterinary Medicine before you start selling genetically modified animals.

262
00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:58,680
So I called the number to talk to people and set up a few meetings, and they were actually pretty nice.

263
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:06,660
And so before the time when I was just like, okay, I want to do this and make a dog that's different and do the thing,

264
00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:07,720
they were fine with it.

265
00:14:07,780 --> 00:14:12,500
When I started talking about, and then I want to make a kid so hundreds of thousands of other dogs can do it,

266
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:14,380
they did not like that.

267
00:14:14,580 --> 00:14:15,740
It started shutting down.

268
00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:22,240
And so finally I was like, hey, look, if we use CRISPR, there's no, like, because the way they used to do it,

269
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:30,340
from the old regulation was that the regulated article is the transgene itself.

270
00:14:30,700 --> 00:14:32,740
So there's no transgene to do genomic edits.

271
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,600
There's no regulated article.

272
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:36,480
It's just a dog.

273
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:37,840
That's what it should be.

274
00:14:38,020 --> 00:14:40,920
But they changed it.

275
00:14:40,980 --> 00:14:42,060
So I commented to them.

276
00:14:42,060 --> 00:14:49,040
I was like, hey, if I make this genomic edit in a Dalmatian and purify for your ischemia, then there's no transgene.

277
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:49,860
So it's not regulated.

278
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:51,260
And I sent this to the FDA.

279
00:14:51,340 --> 00:14:52,160
I was like, this isn't regulated.

280
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:52,480
Right?

281
00:14:56,580 --> 00:14:58,780
So two weeks later, they changed the regulation.

282
00:14:58,980 --> 00:14:59,460
It is now.

283
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:01,760
Right?

284
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,400
You never ask the regulator, hey, this isn't regulated.

285
00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:06,800
Right?

286
00:15:07,260 --> 00:15:10,080
So you didn't get bounty, bounty money or something?

287
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:10,920
No.

288
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:12,480
And so.

289
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,560
We don't find a way to speed up the process.

290
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:16,720
Yeah.

291
00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:19,540
Just ask the regulators if they're regulating enough.

292
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:21,380
And so.

293
00:15:21,740 --> 00:15:22,220
And so.

294
00:15:22,220 --> 00:15:24,800
So they only have like a bunch of rounds.

295
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:37,400
It's clearly not focused on safety or risk, because like the document, 187, their guidance

296
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:43,140
for industry, a new one, on page three at the bottom .

297
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,020
Is this being seared into your brain?

298
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,080
It specifically examines random eugensis.

299
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:52,280
So I can take dogs for example,

300
00:15:52,380 --> 00:15:53,080
part of the radiation,

301
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,120
and pregnant a female dog,

302
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:56,620
have a litter of mutant puppies,

303
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:58,120
and release them with a yellow tongue,

304
00:15:58,200 --> 00:15:58,920
breed them to wolves,

305
00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:00,040
and the FDA doesn't give a shit.

306
00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:03,640
But if I use CRISPR to cure a disease,

307
00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:04,820
that's a big deal.

308
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,780
The way they have it right now,

309
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,740
that dog is legally a drug.

310
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,020
The animal itself is a drug.

311
00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:13,240
And any puppies it has are drugs.

312
00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:14,620
And they have to all,

313
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,040
like if I have a litter of 12,

314
00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:18,280
6 of them are genetically modified.

315
00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:21,300
Even if all you did was correct a point mutation,

316
00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:23,920
they all have to now go through drug trials.

317
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,060
And separately, each one has to get an IAD,

318
00:16:26,380 --> 00:16:28,380
each one has to get an NAD,

319
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:29,760
each one has to go through

320
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,380
a completely clinical veterinary drug approval.

321
00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:33,960
The dogs.

322
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,940
The dogs are drugs.

323
00:16:36,660 --> 00:16:37,740
So you're hollow.

324
00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:38,920
Yeah, absolutely.

325
00:16:39,220 --> 00:16:40,140
Yeah, that's just not right.

326
00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:40,820
Yeah.

327
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,740
Tell them how much that costs per dog.

328
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:44,880
Oh, yeah, so like,

329
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:46,620
even just to talk to them,

330
00:16:46,620 --> 00:16:47,180
get an IAD,

331
00:16:47,660 --> 00:16:48,560
it's 100 grand.

332
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:50,600
Per hour dog.

333
00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:53,180
And so, and that's annually.

334
00:16:53,460 --> 00:16:55,480
So it's 100 grand a year per dog

335
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,480
while you're going through the process.

336
00:16:56,620 --> 00:16:57,480
And that's just the IAD.

337
00:16:57,700 --> 00:16:59,140
The NAD has its own fees,

338
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:00,760
and then all the testing that they want to do

339
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:01,400
have their own fees.

340
00:17:01,860 --> 00:17:03,300
And it's completely bullshit

341
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,360
because they're not worried about the risks

342
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:06,580
associated with,

343
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,400
with, oh, what if you have an all-party mutation?

344
00:17:11,020 --> 00:17:12,800
Or what if this mutation that you do

345
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,060
is something different?

346
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:15,300
But it's, it's,

347
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:16,260
they're not worried about it at all

348
00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:17,620
because they specifically examine

349
00:17:17,620 --> 00:17:18,480
the grand immunogenesis.

350
00:17:18,780 --> 00:17:20,300
They don't give a shit about hybridization.

351
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:21,400
They don't give a shit about anything.

352
00:17:22,140 --> 00:17:23,500
So it's not about risk,

353
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,160
it's about controlling

354
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,680
who has access to the technology

355
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,600
and what portal they have to the patient.

356
00:17:27,740 --> 00:17:28,020
Amen.

357
00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:30,300
So how, when you called up,

358
00:17:30,340 --> 00:17:31,500
I mean, did they have much experience

359
00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:32,320
with random people

360
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,240
not from institutions calling them?

361
00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:35,420
Well, no, I mean, like,

362
00:17:35,420 --> 00:17:36,720
you know, they're used to, like,

363
00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:37,860
Pfizer and stuff, right?

364
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:39,720
And so they told me,

365
00:17:39,820 --> 00:17:40,600
you know, I know what they're doing.

366
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:43,060
So, so, like,

367
00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:44,280
we had to have all kinds of meetings

368
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:45,340
just to figure out

369
00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:47,020
who I needed to meet with.

370
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,920
You know, there's different branches

371
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:49,680
of this thing now.

372
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:51,560
And so, you know,

373
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:52,680
like, some people, like,

374
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:53,280
the hand animal,

375
00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:54,200
some people, the gen,

376
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:54,700
the parent,

377
00:17:54,820 --> 00:17:55,440
but it's not really

378
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:56,000
the crossover.

379
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,040
And so,

380
00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:58,820
it was a,

381
00:17:58,820 --> 00:17:59,660
it was a big deal

382
00:17:59,660 --> 00:18:00,080
that, like,

383
00:18:00,580 --> 00:18:01,560
when you try to talk to them

384
00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,020
about tamoxification

385
00:18:03,020 --> 00:18:05,200
or sharing all the contours,

386
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,500
they want me to try to own it

387
00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:08,860
so they can just own me.

388
00:18:09,620 --> 00:18:10,020
So,

389
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:10,500
so,

390
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:10,920
I will,

391
00:18:11,020 --> 00:18:11,280
I will say that

392
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,320
we could spend three hours

393
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:13,360
discussing the interactions

394
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:13,900
with FDA.

395
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:14,980
I've actually run meetings

396
00:18:14,980 --> 00:18:16,520
for days with FDA

397
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:17,320
and, you know,

398
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:18,260
pharma talking about

399
00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:18,720
their interactions.

400
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:19,820
So, I don't want to get

401
00:18:19,820 --> 00:18:20,960
too derailed by that,

402
00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:21,800
but what I would say

403
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,000
is what that tells me

404
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,400
is the challenges

405
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:24,980
that we have

406
00:18:24,980 --> 00:18:25,940
that our regulatory bodies

407
00:18:25,940 --> 00:18:26,920
are not nimble

408
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:27,740
or any part of government,

409
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:27,960
really,

410
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:29,240
are very nimble

411
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:29,860
in keeping up

412
00:18:29,860 --> 00:18:30,460
the space,

413
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,500
the speed of technology,

414
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:32,940
right?

415
00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:33,540
Oh, definitely.

416
00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:34,120
Definitely.

417
00:18:34,140 --> 00:18:35,140
We're regulating

418
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:37,220
genetics as drugs

419
00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:37,680
and they just,

420
00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:38,120
they're not

421
00:18:38,780 --> 00:18:39,600
structurally similar

422
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:40,520
in, like,

423
00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:41,860
how they're distributed.

424
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:42,780
Like, you can't just

425
00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:43,420
go up to,

426
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:45,100
you can't just go

427
00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:45,620
shut the door

428
00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:46,640
on the factory

429
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:47,120
and say,

430
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:47,340
okay,

431
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:48,200
we shut it down.

432
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:48,880
Okay.

433
00:18:49,060 --> 00:18:49,600
So, now,

434
00:18:49,620 --> 00:18:50,180
David's been doing

435
00:18:50,180 --> 00:18:51,220
lots of other interesting stuff,

436
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:51,880
but I'm going to move on

437
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:52,580
to other topics

438
00:18:52,580 --> 00:18:53,560
and we may come back

439
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:53,940
to all that.

440
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,440
So, the next question

441
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:56,380
was requested,

442
00:18:56,380 --> 00:18:57,740
was patents and ownership

443
00:18:57,740 --> 00:18:58,860
and ethics of that.

444
00:18:59,020 --> 00:19:00,080
Who wants to take that

445
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:00,900
on the panel first?

446
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:02,520
What are your thoughts?

447
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:04,840
In the context,

448
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,880
in the context of genetics

449
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,600
or in the context of,

450
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:10,280
of,

451
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:10,820
what was the?

452
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:11,400
It was a genetic

453
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:11,920
set of plans.

454
00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:12,940
Okay.

455
00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:13,180
You can do stuff

456
00:19:13,180 --> 00:19:13,760
that you want

457
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:14,520
but you don't even

458
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:15,040
have the tools

459
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:15,520
to get that.

460
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:15,960
Right.

461
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:16,640
Right.

462
00:19:17,620 --> 00:19:18,500
So, it's,

463
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:19,020
it's actually

464
00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:19,860
an interesting

465
00:19:21,220 --> 00:19:22,100
space because

466
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:22,840
it's another

467
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:24,560
place where people

468
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:25,340
are completely

469
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:26,600
unprepared

470
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:27,600
to,

471
00:19:28,120 --> 00:19:28,960
from a regulatory

472
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:29,500
or,

473
00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:30,720
or patent

474
00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:32,600
space to talk about.

475
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:33,440
I was actually

476
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:33,760
going to,

477
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:34,900
it riffs off a little bit

478
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:35,620
about what David said

479
00:19:35,620 --> 00:19:36,180
with the FDA.

480
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:37,440
When I was at DARPA,

481
00:19:37,580 --> 00:19:38,460
we had started

482
00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:39,800
the prosthetics program,

483
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:40,440
right?

484
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,220
Which is awesome,

485
00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:41,660
right?

486
00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:42,340
Like helping,

487
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:43,360
you know,

488
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:44,000
wounded soldiers

489
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,000
restore function.

490
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,280
The medical devices

491
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,520
group in the FDA

492
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,240
had no people

493
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,560
or knowledge

494
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:55,300
of,

495
00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:57,560
of how to regulate

496
00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,520
implantable devices

497
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:00,800
for the purposes

498
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:01,720
of that kind

499
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,120
of restorative function.

500
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:03,800
Right?

501
00:20:03,860 --> 00:20:04,300
It was,

502
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:05,100
you know,

503
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:05,920
it was just

504
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:07,040
a completely new space.

505
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:07,600
So, I think

506
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:08,020
it's,

507
00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:08,620
it's a question

508
00:20:08,620 --> 00:20:09,140
of,

509
00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:10,500
you know,

510
00:20:11,060 --> 00:20:11,720
you know,

511
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:12,200
and unfortunately,

512
00:20:12,460 --> 00:20:12,660
right,

513
00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:13,060
it's the,

514
00:20:13,060 --> 00:20:14,500
it's the chicken-egg problem.

515
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:15,200
Do you want to ask

516
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:15,660
the question

517
00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:17,180
and unleash the beast,

518
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:17,780
you know?

519
00:20:17,820 --> 00:20:18,720
Or do you want to,

520
00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:19,780
you know,

521
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:20,420
let somebody else

522
00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:20,720
make a,

523
00:20:20,820 --> 00:20:21,800
make a run at it?

524
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:22,080
I mean,

525
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:22,560
I think

526
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:24,280
unless there is

527
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:26,440
a large,

528
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:27,000
I mean,

529
00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:27,420
in the case

530
00:20:27,420 --> 00:20:28,140
of the prosthetics

531
00:20:28,140 --> 00:20:29,240
program with DARPA,

532
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:30,620
there was

533
00:20:30,620 --> 00:20:31,980
an industry

534
00:20:33,020 --> 00:20:33,460
provider,

535
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:34,320
right?

536
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:34,960
And a university

537
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,000
provider that wanted

538
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:36,780
to go after it

539
00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:37,220
and actually

540
00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:38,280
produce it.

541
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:38,760
And so,

542
00:20:38,780 --> 00:20:39,540
they were concerned

543
00:20:39,540 --> 00:20:40,280
with actually,

544
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:40,940
you know,

545
00:20:40,940 --> 00:20:41,700
getting some

546
00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:42,700
intellectual property

547
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,780
protections around it.

548
00:20:44,860 --> 00:20:45,560
But I have not

549
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:46,040
seen

550
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,540
a great deal

551
00:20:47,540 --> 00:20:48,040
of

552
00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:50,300
intellectual property

553
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:51,700
protections around

554
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:52,780
those implantable

555
00:20:52,780 --> 00:20:53,680
devices

556
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,920
unless they're

557
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:55,540
from a big,

558
00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:56,140
and I think

559
00:20:56,140 --> 00:20:56,580
it's because

560
00:20:56,580 --> 00:20:57,820
of the cost.

561
00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,200
I think it's really

562
00:20:59,200 --> 00:20:59,980
because of the cost

563
00:20:59,980 --> 00:21:00,520
of protecting

564
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:01,700
the information,

565
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:02,640
the cost of actually

566
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:03,120
going through

567
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:04,120
the regulatory process.

568
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:04,500
I mean,

569
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:05,420
it was only because

570
00:21:05,420 --> 00:21:07,160
it was part and parcel

571
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,220
of those programs

572
00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:09,700
that they were actually

573
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:10,400
able to afford

574
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:10,660
it.

575
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:11,380
The universities

576
00:21:11,380 --> 00:21:12,500
and the researchers

577
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:13,580
would never have been

578
00:21:13,580 --> 00:21:14,320
able to afford

579
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,560
that process.

580
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:16,300
Yeah, go ahead.

581
00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:18,260
Right.

582
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:22,840
Right.

583
00:21:24,340 --> 00:21:24,900
You know,

584
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,320
I like to tell

585
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:27,160
people that,

586
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:27,440
you know,

587
00:21:27,980 --> 00:21:28,420
fortunately,

588
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:29,220
they're not,

589
00:21:29,740 --> 00:21:30,180
fortunately,

590
00:21:30,420 --> 00:21:30,880
I don't think

591
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:31,800
they're tracking it

592
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,380
that closely.

593
00:21:33,620 --> 00:21:34,140
I mean,

594
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:35,000
a lot of the,

595
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:35,900
a lot of the work

596
00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:37,160
that's been done,

597
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:38,720
I'm not familiar

598
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:39,280
with the amount

599
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:39,800
of patents

600
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:40,280
that were filed

601
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:40,860
in that space,

602
00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:41,700
but a lot of it

603
00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:42,320
is for government

604
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:43,020
purpose rights

605
00:21:43,020 --> 00:21:45,760
and then the researchers

606
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:46,720
themselves are allowed

607
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,340
to go at it commercially.

608
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:49,660
So it may be the case

609
00:21:49,660 --> 00:21:51,280
that if it has a,

610
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:52,060
sort of an,

611
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:52,840
I'll call it

612
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:53,820
an off-label use

613
00:21:53,820 --> 00:21:55,000
for lack of a better term,

614
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,840
but I don't necessarily

615
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,860
know that they'd be

616
00:21:58,860 --> 00:21:59,560
interested in going

617
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:00,500
after individuals

618
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:01,520
in that way

619
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:02,280
unless it was

620
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:02,840
somehow disruptive

621
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,800
to the larger organization

622
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,280
that had gone after it.

623
00:22:06,380 --> 00:22:07,040
I hope that's helpful.

624
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:09,240
So your question

625
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:09,860
actually brings up

626
00:22:09,860 --> 00:22:10,080
something.

627
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:10,360
I think one of the things

628
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:10,980
I talked about

629
00:22:10,980 --> 00:22:11,620
I think with Amber.

630
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,140
So ownership,

631
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:14,420
let's take ownership

632
00:22:14,420 --> 00:22:15,440
not patents.

633
00:22:16,140 --> 00:22:16,820
You know,

634
00:22:16,820 --> 00:22:17,700
most consumers

635
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:18,580
who are just

636
00:22:18,580 --> 00:22:20,060
giving their spit

637
00:22:20,060 --> 00:22:20,880
to 23andMe

638
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:21,640
have no idea

639
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,060
that they're not owning

640
00:22:23,060 --> 00:22:24,060
that the 23andMe

641
00:22:24,060 --> 00:22:24,960
is monetizing that,

642
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:25,260
right?

643
00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:27,260
And really

644
00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:28,020
there's a big question

645
00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:28,740
about why shouldn't

646
00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:29,500
individuals own

647
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:30,440
their own DNA,

648
00:22:30,660 --> 00:22:30,980
right?

649
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:31,860
Why shouldn't there

650
00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:32,480
be a marketplace

651
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:33,020
for that

652
00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:33,540
or they choose

653
00:22:33,540 --> 00:22:34,040
who, you know,

654
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:35,240
so that's definitely

655
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:35,900
a huge area

656
00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:36,480
that's still

657
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:37,620
not got that.

658
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:38,160
Amber,

659
00:22:38,260 --> 00:22:38,880
I think you talked

660
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:39,300
a little bit

661
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:39,980
to me

662
00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:40,440
on the phone

663
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,000
about implants

664
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:42,820
and others

665
00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:43,600
and can you talk

666
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:44,380
a little bit

667
00:22:44,380 --> 00:22:44,960
about your thoughts

668
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:45,540
about that

669
00:22:45,540 --> 00:22:46,040
and ownership?

670
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:48,040
Sure.

671
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:48,580
Well,

672
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:49,840
I was working

673
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,180
for a wellness

674
00:22:51,180 --> 00:22:52,080
slash healthcare

675
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:52,580
company.

676
00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:53,720
They hired me

677
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,100
out of doing

678
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:56,060
this little startup

679
00:22:56,060 --> 00:22:56,800
that I had done.

680
00:22:57,140 --> 00:22:58,440
So I got to go

681
00:22:58,440 --> 00:22:59,200
to Nashville, Tennessee

682
00:22:59,200 --> 00:22:59,640
a lot.

683
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:00,080
Of course,

684
00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:01,040
I ended up talking

685
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:01,820
to people on the plane

686
00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:02,320
next to me

687
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:03,060
constantly,

688
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:03,500
you know,

689
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:03,700
hey,

690
00:23:03,780 --> 00:23:04,280
what do you do?

691
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,020
So I met this one guy

692
00:23:06,020 --> 00:23:06,460
and he said,

693
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:07,020
oh, well,

694
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:07,800
I work for

695
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:08,940
a pacemaker company.

696
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:09,420
I said,

697
00:23:09,460 --> 00:23:09,580
oh,

698
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:09,860
that's

699
00:23:09,860 --> 00:23:09,960
great.

700
00:23:09,980 --> 00:23:10,980
So these things

701
00:23:10,980 --> 00:23:11,960
last about 20 years,

702
00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:12,200
right?

703
00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:12,560
He said,

704
00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:12,740
well,

705
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:13,160
actually,

706
00:23:13,260 --> 00:23:14,220
all of our new models

707
00:23:14,220 --> 00:23:15,440
in order to increase

708
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,120
market share

709
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:16,720
and make sure

710
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:17,960
that we grow

711
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,200
as the required way

712
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:20,040
as a publicly traded

713
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:21,760
company must grow,

714
00:23:22,340 --> 00:23:24,040
we now make pacemakers

715
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:24,920
that last for maybe,

716
00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:25,480
you know,

717
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:26,580
four or five years

718
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,180
because it's very nice

719
00:23:30,180 --> 00:23:31,200
to get 30,

720
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:32,400
40K at a time

721
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,640
for the take out

722
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:34,140
the thing,

723
00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:34,900
it's now outdated

724
00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:36,280
and put the new thing in,

725
00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:37,220
not to mention

726
00:23:37,220 --> 00:23:38,140
all the security issues

727
00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:38,760
they're running into

728
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:39,420
because they're putting

729
00:23:39,420 --> 00:23:39,880
things like

730
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:40,100
Bluetooth

731
00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:41,540
and stuff

732
00:23:41,540 --> 00:23:42,540
and Wi-Fi

733
00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:43,580
and connect to

734
00:23:43,580 --> 00:23:44,540
grandpa's hotspot.

735
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:45,220
Great.

736
00:23:47,780 --> 00:23:48,820
This really,

737
00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:50,760
really bothered me

738
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,320
and it bothered him too

739
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,580
and I said,

740
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:55,160
doesn't that seem

741
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:55,900
unethical to you?

742
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:56,280
He said,

743
00:23:56,340 --> 00:23:56,560
yeah,

744
00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:57,800
but I don't have a choice.

745
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:58,960
My choice is

746
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,400
you don't have a job

747
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:01,540
or you have a job.

748
00:24:01,740 --> 00:24:03,180
The company has to grow

749
00:24:03,180 --> 00:24:03,820
as required

750
00:24:03,820 --> 00:24:05,200
by the artificial intelligence

751
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,180
that owns us

752
00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:07,560
as publicly traded companies

753
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:08,580
that must grow,

754
00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:09,000
right?

755
00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:11,760
So this was the big issue.

756
00:24:11,860 --> 00:24:11,960
I said,

757
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,580
now it's a subscription model

758
00:24:13,580 --> 00:24:14,440
that you have to pay

759
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:15,240
every five years

760
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:16,800
for your life, right?

761
00:24:16,940 --> 00:24:17,680
The whole point

762
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,140
of entering into a society

763
00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:20,280
is to give up some rights

764
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:21,620
in order to get others, right?

765
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:22,620
Well, how many rights

766
00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:24,020
do we end up giving up?

767
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:24,720
And if people have

768
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,560
a lot of money

769
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:26,740
from the retirement accounts,

770
00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:27,540
a lot of money

771
00:24:27,540 --> 00:24:28,200
from health insurance,

772
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,540
of course they can get

773
00:24:29,540 --> 00:24:29,980
a new implant.

774
00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:31,220
And I also thought about

775
00:24:31,220 --> 00:24:32,480
the, you know,

776
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:33,100
cochlear implants

777
00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:33,900
and things like that

778
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:35,580
and these hearing aids

779
00:24:35,580 --> 00:24:36,340
that now have Bluetooth

780
00:24:36,340 --> 00:24:37,260
so you can turn off

781
00:24:37,260 --> 00:24:37,760
your hearing

782
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:38,980
or, you know,

783
00:24:38,980 --> 00:24:39,960
you can play music through it

784
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:40,860
which is kind of nice

785
00:24:40,860 --> 00:24:42,340
but that can also be hacked too

786
00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:43,100
and you can get somebody

787
00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:44,540
into a horrible feedback loop

788
00:24:44,540 --> 00:24:45,800
and have to turn it off.

789
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:47,960
So I was kind of thinking about

790
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:49,740
there's, you know,

791
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,080
and as an anthropologist

792
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:51,760
all I think about

793
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:52,720
really is social class.

794
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,240
It's, okay, well,

795
00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:55,440
I've got somebody

796
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:56,200
who would normally get

797
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,160
a 20-year pacemaker

798
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,220
and this is fantastic

799
00:24:59,220 --> 00:25:00,360
or 40 years

800
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:01,440
or something that's stable

801
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,020
and now because I don't

802
00:25:03,020 --> 00:25:03,700
have enough money

803
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:05,040
I can't go in

804
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:05,820
and get the next version

805
00:25:05,820 --> 00:25:06,380
of the pacemaker

806
00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:07,000
and I die

807
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,820
and there's no controls

808
00:25:08,820 --> 00:25:09,680
around that.

809
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,120
In cyber-organic anthropology class

810
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:12,820
we got to write a lot

811
00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:13,460
of science fiction

812
00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:14,340
as our assignments

813
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,520
and, of course,

814
00:25:15,540 --> 00:25:16,160
I wrote a story

815
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,140
called Designer Jeans

816
00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:18,700
which was all these kids

817
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:19,620
in a really wealthy school,

818
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:21,980
their parents were constantly

819
00:25:23,980 --> 00:25:25,580
buying CRISPR-like solutions

820
00:25:25,580 --> 00:25:26,320
for their kids

821
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,700
so every season

822
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:28,320
you had to,

823
00:25:28,340 --> 00:25:28,560
oh, well,

824
00:25:28,580 --> 00:25:29,380
these are the new years

825
00:25:29,380 --> 00:25:30,420
for the season, you know,

826
00:25:30,420 --> 00:25:31,240
so immediately

827
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,320
you would see

828
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:32,720
that, like,

829
00:25:32,740 --> 00:25:34,080
the person wasn't up-to-date

830
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:34,740
with this stuff

831
00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:36,160
that would be $10,000.

832
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:36,940
We see this now

833
00:25:36,940 --> 00:25:37,920
in South Korea

834
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:38,560
is people get,

835
00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:39,700
like, plastic surgery

836
00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:40,480
as a birthday present

837
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:41,860
and you put your picture

838
00:25:41,860 --> 00:25:42,640
with your resume

839
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:43,740
so that people can see

840
00:25:43,740 --> 00:25:44,280
whether you're

841
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,240
attractive enough

842
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:46,520
or not to be hired

843
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:47,020
in a job

844
00:25:47,020 --> 00:25:47,820
because it's this

845
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:49,520
trying to pretend

846
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,440
like it's not

847
00:25:50,900 --> 00:25:51,940
two generations away

848
00:25:51,940 --> 00:25:53,500
from an agrarian society

849
00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:54,600
and we have to prove

850
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:55,240
that we're really,

851
00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:55,880
I think, you know,

852
00:25:55,940 --> 00:25:57,660
after spending some time

853
00:25:57,660 --> 00:25:58,020
over there

854
00:25:58,020 --> 00:25:58,720
it was really intense

855
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,960
and so I'm concerned

856
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,960
about the social class

857
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:02,580
issue of

858
00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:03,900
here's a bunch of people

859
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:04,460
that can fix

860
00:26:04,460 --> 00:26:05,060
their own problems

861
00:26:05,060 --> 00:26:06,040
not only can they get,

862
00:26:06,180 --> 00:26:07,180
they can go in

863
00:26:07,180 --> 00:26:08,480
and get their DNA tested

864
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:09,040
which is owned

865
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:09,700
by somebody else

866
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:10,660
but then they can subscribe

867
00:26:10,660 --> 00:26:11,780
to all the new,

868
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:13,800
all the new systems

869
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,000
that can improve their life

870
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:15,500
and then you have

871
00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:16,140
a bunch of people

872
00:26:16,140 --> 00:26:17,380
who now have

873
00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:18,040
a lifespan

874
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,620
of maybe 30 or 40 years

875
00:26:19,620 --> 00:26:20,660
and then you've got

876
00:26:20,660 --> 00:26:21,260
a bunch of people

877
00:26:21,260 --> 00:26:21,720
who can live

878
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:22,800
for 80 or 90 years

879
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:23,700
and there's this,

880
00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:24,760
like, class divide

881
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:25,900
of short-term

882
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,940
disposable robot workers

883
00:26:27,940 --> 00:26:29,620
that are put on pause

884
00:26:29,620 --> 00:26:30,580
and work three jobs

885
00:26:30,580 --> 00:26:31,680
to barely make ends meet

886
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:32,600
and then you've got people

887
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:33,380
who can live

888
00:26:33,380 --> 00:26:34,380
for a really long time

889
00:26:34,380 --> 00:26:35,220
and then you have

890
00:26:35,220 --> 00:26:35,880
even worse

891
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:36,860
the kids of these

892
00:26:36,860 --> 00:26:37,700
really wealthy people

893
00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:38,460
who take care

894
00:26:38,460 --> 00:26:39,040
and take it for granted

895
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:39,680
that they can just

896
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:40,660
fix anything they want

897
00:26:41,380 --> 00:26:42,860
and so when I,

898
00:26:42,860 --> 00:26:43,340
when I was,

899
00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:43,800
you know,

900
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:44,980
put my data

901
00:26:44,980 --> 00:26:46,180
into 23andMe

902
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:47,820
there was a time

903
00:26:47,820 --> 00:26:48,760
where you could take out

904
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:49,860
a lot more of the raw data

905
00:26:49,860 --> 00:26:50,600
than I think you can

906
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:51,080
right now

907
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:51,960
and I was able

908
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:52,560
to shove it into

909
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:53,460
all these open source

910
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:54,920
analysis tools

911
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,400
and I was trying to find,

912
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:57,480
because my mom has MS,

913
00:26:57,660 --> 00:26:58,000
I was like,

914
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:58,120
well,

915
00:26:58,200 --> 00:26:59,180
do I carry that gene

916
00:26:59,540 --> 00:27:01,220
and am I able to absorb

917
00:27:01,220 --> 00:27:02,660
vitamin D from the sun

918
00:27:02,660 --> 00:27:03,200
and I found out,

919
00:27:03,260 --> 00:27:03,480
oh yeah,

920
00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:05,380
I carry this horrible gene

921
00:27:05,380 --> 00:27:06,220
that means that I'm

922
00:27:06,220 --> 00:27:07,380
very susceptible to this

923
00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:08,120
but now I can,

924
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:08,800
you know,

925
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,300
that making what was

926
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:11,240
informally invisible

927
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:11,780
visible

928
00:27:11,780 --> 00:27:13,140
gave me a lot

929
00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:13,460
of empowerment

930
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:15,800
but without that

931
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:16,680
and it's just being used

932
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:17,360
for somebody else

933
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:18,760
and I had to run it

934
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:19,280
through all these

935
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:20,900
weird graduate level

936
00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:21,920
processes in order

937
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:22,840
to get that data out

938
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,320
so I think there's this,

939
00:27:24,340 --> 00:27:25,440
this issue

940
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,920
that you have

941
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:27,460
all these people

942
00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:28,300
giving away their data,

943
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,100
they aren't getting

944
00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:30,240
any visibility on it,

945
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:31,160
they aren't owning

946
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:31,960
any of their data

947
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,840
and it's totally not fair.

948
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:34,940
I had a friend

949
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:35,840
who is,

950
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:36,820
it was found

951
00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:37,920
that he was HIV resistant

952
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:38,440
and he was like,

953
00:27:38,460 --> 00:27:40,320
so they took all of that out

954
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:40,580
and they said,

955
00:27:40,660 --> 00:27:41,920
well now we can synthesize

956
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,100
some drugs based on you.

957
00:27:43,140 --> 00:27:44,200
They gave him a patient number.

958
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,240
Does he get access to,

959
00:27:46,340 --> 00:27:46,520
you know,

960
00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:48,020
does he own any of that?

961
00:27:48,140 --> 00:27:48,320
No.

962
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:48,820
You know,

963
00:27:48,820 --> 00:27:49,500
so they made just

964
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:50,280
tremendous amounts

965
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:51,280
of money off of him

966
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:52,160
and then you have farmers

967
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,640
who they've got

968
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:54,040
these genetically

969
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,060
engineered seeds

970
00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:56,400
they have to subscribe to

971
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,420
and those seeds

972
00:27:57,420 --> 00:27:58,840
can sometimes pollinate

973
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,820
with other seeds

974
00:27:59,820 --> 00:28:00,480
in other fields

975
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:01,940
and cause those seeds

976
00:28:01,940 --> 00:28:03,300
to be genetically modified

977
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:04,540
and then there's been

978
00:28:04,540 --> 00:28:05,280
these companies

979
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,120
that like Monsanto

980
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:07,260
will actually sue

981
00:28:07,260 --> 00:28:08,440
those farmers

982
00:28:08,460 --> 00:28:08,620
like,

983
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:09,500
well we found genetically

984
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:10,340
modified seeds

985
00:28:10,340 --> 00:28:10,920
in your field

986
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:11,580
and you didn't buy

987
00:28:11,580 --> 00:28:12,380
the subscription model

988
00:28:12,380 --> 00:28:12,920
to the seeds.

989
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:13,180
It's like,

990
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:14,400
these seeds

991
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:15,480
from this farmer's field

992
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:16,840
infected my seeds.

993
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:17,520
They're like,

994
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:18,540
well you still have to pay up.

995
00:28:18,780 --> 00:28:19,280
And I was like,

996
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,040
well we can't really

997
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,320
contain the pollination

998
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:22,460
of these seeds.

999
00:28:22,660 --> 00:28:24,500
So my biggest concern

1000
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:25,580
is that you're going to have

1001
00:28:25,580 --> 00:28:26,600
a whole class of people

1002
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,000
kind of like now

1003
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:28,680
that has access

1004
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:29,580
to healthcare

1005
00:28:29,580 --> 00:28:30,040
and implants

1006
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:30,880
and things like that

1007
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,320
which is why

1008
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,280
I'm really for

1009
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:34,460
people doing

1010
00:28:34,460 --> 00:28:35,940
their own implants

1011
00:28:35,940 --> 00:28:38,440
and making a 3D printed

1012
00:28:38,460 --> 00:28:39,200
prosthetic leg.

1013
00:28:39,620 --> 00:28:40,700
The only issue

1014
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:41,520
is that once you have

1015
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:42,460
a community like that

1016
00:28:42,460 --> 00:28:43,060
that does it

1017
00:28:43,060 --> 00:28:43,900
kind of underground

1018
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:44,900
for really cheap,

1019
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:46,020
you have to have

1020
00:28:46,020 --> 00:28:46,740
a support network

1021
00:28:46,740 --> 00:28:47,300
that says,

1022
00:28:47,420 --> 00:28:47,620
okay,

1023
00:28:47,740 --> 00:28:48,460
well I put something

1024
00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:49,000
in my hand

1025
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,100
and now I have a microtumor,

1026
00:28:50,140 --> 00:28:50,680
I have an infection,

1027
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:51,760
I need to get it out.

1028
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,400
Is there an underground

1029
00:28:54,020 --> 00:28:55,540
department that I can go to

1030
00:28:55,540 --> 00:28:57,280
that I can get this

1031
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,480
taken out in a safe way

1032
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,800
that I don't have to go

1033
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:00,300
to the hospital

1034
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:00,960
and have them either

1035
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:01,520
sue me

1036
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:02,260
because I have some

1037
00:29:02,260 --> 00:29:04,240
government property in me

1038
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,220
or that's not going

1039
00:29:06,220 --> 00:29:07,280
to alert any authorities.

1040
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,300
That's going to be

1041
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:09,160
able to do that surgery

1042
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:09,680
for me

1043
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:10,760
at a cheap level,

1044
00:29:10,940 --> 00:29:12,080
kind of off-grid.

1045
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:12,980
Do we have to go

1046
00:29:12,980 --> 00:29:13,940
to other countries for that?

1047
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:14,540
Do we have to go

1048
00:29:14,540 --> 00:29:15,700
to some back alley for that?

1049
00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:16,820
We're going to have to see

1050
00:29:16,820 --> 00:29:17,960
that whole underground market

1051
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:18,960
that does this on the cheap

1052
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,780
and then all sorts of ways

1053
00:29:20,780 --> 00:29:22,940
of deflecting

1054
00:29:22,940 --> 00:29:24,620
any authority's detection

1055
00:29:24,620 --> 00:29:25,600
of these systems

1056
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:26,420
because right now

1057
00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:27,700
it's not enough

1058
00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:28,600
of a profit loss

1059
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:29,940
for these large companies

1060
00:29:29,940 --> 00:29:30,920
to go after people

1061
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:32,040
but at some point

1062
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,600
if it's a gene mutation

1063
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:34,960
or some nice thing

1064
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:35,560
that prevents you

1065
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:36,400
from having a disease

1066
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:37,880
and you got it off market,

1067
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:38,580
then hey,

1068
00:29:38,660 --> 00:29:40,020
they lost $100,000.

1069
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:41,560
I can't imagine

1070
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,720
now you'll have celebrities

1071
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:44,100
that'll say,

1072
00:29:44,140 --> 00:29:44,540
well, I'll buy

1073
00:29:44,540 --> 00:29:45,620
one of those designer dogs.

1074
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:46,600
That sounds great.

1075
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,040
I can get one of these dogs

1076
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:48,980
without diabetes.

1077
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:49,800
Fantastic.

1078
00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:51,860
But it'll be really

1079
00:29:51,860 --> 00:29:53,100
cost prohibitive

1080
00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:54,440
and there's money for that

1081
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:55,480
and it comes from

1082
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,060
these tiny little places

1083
00:29:57,060 --> 00:29:58,960
and that's my big concern

1084
00:29:58,960 --> 00:29:59,580
that there's no

1085
00:29:59,580 --> 00:30:00,960
overarching authority

1086
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,520
that says,

1087
00:30:01,620 --> 00:30:02,560
hey, this is unethical.

1088
00:30:02,780 --> 00:30:03,620
We're going to create

1089
00:30:03,620 --> 00:30:05,020
an even larger class divide

1090
00:30:05,020 --> 00:30:06,600
and a whole subclass

1091
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:07,140
of people

1092
00:30:07,140 --> 00:30:07,940
that do this off-grid

1093
00:30:07,940 --> 00:30:08,280
that we can't

1094
00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:08,940
we can just raid.

1095
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,540
Imagine getting raided

1096
00:30:11,540 --> 00:30:12,760
as an off-the-grid

1097
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:13,620
medical facility

1098
00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:14,900
and all the different ways

1099
00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:15,460
that you're going to have

1100
00:30:15,460 --> 00:30:17,560
to hide what you're doing

1101
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:18,300
and that sucks

1102
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:18,880
and unfortunately

1103
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,240
it goes into science fiction

1104
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,220
but now that's today

1105
00:30:21,220 --> 00:30:21,740
unfortunately.

1106
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:23,360
So these are the things

1107
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,180
I'm concerned about.

1108
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:24,880
There needs to be

1109
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,200
democratization of this stuff

1110
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:27,580
because look at what we did

1111
00:30:27,580 --> 00:30:27,940
with like,

1112
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,300
yeah, we had GMO food

1113
00:30:29,300 --> 00:30:30,060
but now we can feed

1114
00:30:30,060 --> 00:30:30,440
more people.

1115
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:31,240
Okay, right?

1116
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,100
Or the whole point of

1117
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:34,000
let's say a democracy

1118
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,380
or having some rights

1119
00:30:35,380 --> 00:30:36,260
is that you have access

1120
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:37,920
to these things.

1121
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:38,880
Like you have access

1122
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,820
to the new technologies.

1123
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,840
We don't have things anymore

1124
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,200
really like a Bell Labs

1125
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,340
or like the idea

1126
00:30:44,340 --> 00:30:45,840
of electrical grids

1127
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,480
that everybody gets electricity

1128
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:48,160
and yeah,

1129
00:30:48,340 --> 00:30:49,220
we can subscribe to it

1130
00:30:49,220 --> 00:30:50,540
but it's pretty affordable.

1131
00:30:50,780 --> 00:30:51,720
We need to have

1132
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:52,960
that same thing going on

1133
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,280
for this new generation

1134
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,260
of medical implants

1135
00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:55,820
and devices

1136
00:30:55,820 --> 00:30:57,160
and genetic processes

1137
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,580
or we're going to get

1138
00:30:58,580 --> 00:30:59,640
in really big trouble

1139
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:00,600
with our future selves

1140
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,900
and it will suck horribly.

1141
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:04,300
And right now

1142
00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:05,020
it's just too

1143
00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:05,900
goddamn profitable

1144
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:07,220
for people

1145
00:31:07,220 --> 00:31:07,900
to be able to

1146
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:08,240
right now

1147
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:08,980
so they're hoarding

1148
00:31:08,980 --> 00:31:09,400
all the money

1149
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:10,080
and consolidating

1150
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:10,660
all the capital

1151
00:31:10,660 --> 00:31:12,300
and I just think

1152
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:14,040
that how that works

1153
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:14,900
in the past

1154
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:15,940
isn't very good

1155
00:31:15,940 --> 00:31:17,320
and democracy

1156
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:18,520
makes things

1157
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:19,420
a little bit more stable

1158
00:31:20,140 --> 00:31:21,020
over time

1159
00:31:21,020 --> 00:31:21,880
so we're just kind of

1160
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:22,380
shooting ourselves

1161
00:31:22,380 --> 00:31:22,940
in the foot.

1162
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,120
It's hard to tell people

1163
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,480
that who are CEOs

1164
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:26,400
who make a lot of money

1165
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:27,780
because they have to

1166
00:31:27,780 --> 00:31:29,260
respond to their shareholders

1167
00:31:29,260 --> 00:31:30,500
and they have to grow.

1168
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,680
So your question

1169
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:34,180
really opened

1170
00:31:34,180 --> 00:31:35,440
the giant can of worms, right?

1171
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:36,800
So it touched on

1172
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:37,440
a few topics

1173
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:37,900
that we've been talking about

1174
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:38,520
and we've been thinking about

1175
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:39,100
so that's great.

1176
00:31:39,180 --> 00:31:39,540
Thank you.

1177
00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:41,300
I'll combine two of them.

1178
00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:42,200
I'll combine next

1179
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,600
the safety implications, right?

1180
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:45,380
And the

1181
00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:46,780
don't give a shit people

1182
00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:47,620
kind of question.

1183
00:31:48,140 --> 00:31:49,960
So how do we deal

1184
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,420
with the biohacking community

1185
00:31:51,420 --> 00:31:52,220
and their sort of

1186
00:31:52,220 --> 00:31:52,940
ensuring safety

1187
00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:55,160
and how do we impose rules

1188
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:55,920
like someone said

1189
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:56,560
to folks

1190
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:57,440
who don't give a shit

1191
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:58,220
about rules, right?

1192
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:00,500
So I've been thinking

1193
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:01,320
about this a little bit

1194
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:01,860
because

1195
00:32:02,340 --> 00:32:03,240
you know

1196
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:03,840
as someone

1197
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,300
who's transited

1198
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:05,820
this space

1199
00:32:05,820 --> 00:32:06,660
from both of

1200
00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:07,900
I would ask

1201
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:08,160
I would call

1202
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:09,220
an over-regulated

1203
00:32:09,220 --> 00:32:09,820
environment

1204
00:32:09,820 --> 00:32:10,540
which was

1205
00:32:10,540 --> 00:32:10,900
you know

1206
00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:11,840
working in defense

1207
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,260
and trying to get through

1208
00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:14,940
institutional review boards

1209
00:32:14,940 --> 00:32:15,580
and things like that

1210
00:32:15,580 --> 00:32:15,980
to work

1211
00:32:15,980 --> 00:32:17,760
in what I considered

1212
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,440
mission critical

1213
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:19,920
slash

1214
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,800
life-saving applications

1215
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,060
and the struggle there

1216
00:32:23,060 --> 00:32:24,380
all the way to

1217
00:32:24,380 --> 00:32:25,820
advising my friends

1218
00:32:25,820 --> 00:32:26,320
and colleagues

1219
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:27,380
on the best placement

1220
00:32:27,380 --> 00:32:28,920
of TDCS electrodes

1221
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:29,860
for you know

1222
00:32:29,860 --> 00:32:30,320
the kind of stuff

1223
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:31,160
they're trying to do, right?

1224
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,120
So I absolutely believe

1225
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,160
in the democratization

1226
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:35,560
of this space

1227
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:36,760
and so I was wondering

1228
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:37,440
I was playing with

1229
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:37,900
the idea of

1230
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,680
you know

1231
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:39,960
with the

1232
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:40,520
you know

1233
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:41,180
there's obviously

1234
00:32:41,180 --> 00:32:42,020
you know

1235
00:32:42,020 --> 00:32:42,980
even the word

1236
00:32:42,980 --> 00:32:43,560
IRB

1237
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:44,920
institutional review board

1238
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:45,180
you know

1239
00:32:45,180 --> 00:32:46,300
gives me hives, right?

1240
00:32:46,380 --> 00:32:47,040
Because of you know

1241
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,320
sort of dealt with that

1242
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:49,000
but I was wondering

1243
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:49,340
is there

1244
00:32:49,340 --> 00:32:50,220
could there be

1245
00:32:50,220 --> 00:32:50,740
an equivalent

1246
00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:52,060
in the biohacking community

1247
00:32:52,060 --> 00:32:52,880
of some type of

1248
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:53,880
peer-reviewed

1249
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,500
you know

1250
00:32:55,500 --> 00:32:56,160
review board

1251
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:57,360
where it was not

1252
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,020
binding in any way

1253
00:32:59,020 --> 00:32:59,520
but you

1254
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,880
you got the input

1255
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:02,420
of folks

1256
00:33:02,420 --> 00:33:03,120
who may be

1257
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:04,260
actually specialists

1258
00:33:04,260 --> 00:33:04,800
or

1259
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,180
willing to

1260
00:33:06,180 --> 00:33:07,020
to transit

1261
00:33:07,020 --> 00:33:07,580
that space

1262
00:33:07,580 --> 00:33:08,300
and I think

1263
00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:09,120
one of the challenges

1264
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:09,960
has been

1265
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:11,640
and I'm going to

1266
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:12,720
criticize my own

1267
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,360
group of people

1268
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:14,820
right?

1269
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:15,360
So I'm going to

1270
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:16,100
criticize researchers

1271
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:17,240
in general

1272
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:18,060
maybe people who

1273
00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:18,680
consider themselves

1274
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:19,580
professional researchers

1275
00:33:19,580 --> 00:33:20,880
I think they've been

1276
00:33:22,660 --> 00:33:23,300
hesitant

1277
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:24,900
to cross the threshold

1278
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:26,380
of interacting

1279
00:33:26,380 --> 00:33:27,100
with

1280
00:33:28,580 --> 00:33:29,380
you know

1281
00:33:29,380 --> 00:33:29,700
sort of

1282
00:33:29,700 --> 00:33:30,500
do-it-yourself

1283
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:31,400
for biohackers

1284
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,420
for fear of

1285
00:33:32,420 --> 00:33:32,820
I don't know

1286
00:33:32,820 --> 00:33:33,280
their own

1287
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:35,600
research credentials

1288
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:36,760
or you know

1289
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:37,240
nobody's going to

1290
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:38,140
take away my PhD

1291
00:33:38,140 --> 00:33:39,380
if I help my friends

1292
00:33:39,380 --> 00:33:39,780
like

1293
00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:40,920
put their electrodes

1294
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:41,340
somewhere

1295
00:33:41,340 --> 00:33:41,800
you know

1296
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:42,420
I give them

1297
00:33:42,420 --> 00:33:43,120
the same caveat

1298
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:43,680
that I'd give

1299
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:44,520
anybody else

1300
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:44,880
that I

1301
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:45,380
you know

1302
00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:45,680
whether I'm

1303
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:46,540
recommending you

1304
00:33:46,540 --> 00:33:47,440
like eat something

1305
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,440
or you know

1306
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,000
put an electrode

1307
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:49,580
on your head

1308
00:33:49,580 --> 00:33:50,280
I think it's a

1309
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:50,880
you know

1310
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:51,080
it's a

1311
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:51,940
it's a conversation

1312
00:33:51,940 --> 00:33:53,200
that we're having

1313
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,640
I have a colleague

1314
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:55,620
Zoran Popovic

1315
00:33:55,620 --> 00:33:56,160
who's done

1316
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,200
the work on

1317
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:57,720
Foldit

1318
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:58,240
it was that

1319
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,200
like crowdsourced

1320
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:00,220
protein folding thing

1321
00:34:00,220 --> 00:34:01,580
and he was the one

1322
00:34:01,580 --> 00:34:02,880
who insisted

1323
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,020
to Science Magazine

1324
00:34:04,020 --> 00:34:05,580
that all of the

1325
00:34:05,580 --> 00:34:05,980
researchers

1326
00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:06,660
who had

1327
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:07,660
participated in that

1328
00:34:07,660 --> 00:34:08,680
crowdsourced activity

1329
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:09,420
get their name

1330
00:34:09,420 --> 00:34:10,000
on the paper

1331
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,260
and I think we need

1332
00:34:11,260 --> 00:34:12,200
more researchers

1333
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:13,440
you know

1334
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:14,080
I don't necessarily

1335
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:14,880
think that

1336
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:15,180
it's

1337
00:34:15,180 --> 00:34:16,600
it's entirely

1338
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:17,940
incumbent on

1339
00:34:17,940 --> 00:34:19,220
the biohacking

1340
00:34:19,220 --> 00:34:20,280
or DIY community

1341
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,640
to figure that out

1342
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:22,200
I think it's also

1343
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:22,820
incumbent on

1344
00:34:22,820 --> 00:34:23,260
researchers

1345
00:34:23,260 --> 00:34:24,380
and medical folks

1346
00:34:24,380 --> 00:34:25,540
to cross over

1347
00:34:25,540 --> 00:34:27,060
and start interacting

1348
00:34:27,060 --> 00:34:27,980
in a better way

1349
00:34:27,980 --> 00:34:28,820
so is there a way

1350
00:34:28,820 --> 00:34:29,640
to do peer review

1351
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:30,420
is there a way

1352
00:34:30,420 --> 00:34:31,480
for researchers

1353
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,200
and scientists

1354
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:33,480
to share methodologies

1355
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:34,480
that don't necessarily

1356
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:35,600
impose anything

1357
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:36,540
on folks

1358
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:37,280
who are doing that

1359
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:38,320
but want to get

1360
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:38,980
into that space

1361
00:34:38,980 --> 00:34:40,500
so a couple of comments

1362
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:40,760
on that

1363
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:41,440
first of all

1364
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:42,220
would the

1365
00:34:42,220 --> 00:34:42,760
you guys

1366
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:43,160
that are going

1367
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:43,860
don't give a shit

1368
00:34:43,860 --> 00:34:44,120
people

1369
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:44,780
would you ever

1370
00:34:44,780 --> 00:34:45,940
think of submitting

1371
00:34:45,940 --> 00:34:46,720
to an institute

1372
00:34:47,220 --> 00:34:47,980
review board

1373
00:34:47,980 --> 00:34:49,160
I would assume not

1374
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:50,620
when I did

1375
00:34:50,620 --> 00:34:51,360
the circadia

1376
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:52,360
implant

1377
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:53,720
like we actually

1378
00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:55,140
contacted a doctor

1379
00:34:55,140 --> 00:34:56,600
like a neuroscience

1380
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:57,420
professional

1381
00:34:57,940 --> 00:34:58,880
and we just said

1382
00:34:58,880 --> 00:34:59,380
hey can you

1383
00:34:59,380 --> 00:35:00,680
can you just give us

1384
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:00,980
some advice

1385
00:35:00,980 --> 00:35:02,020
highly off record

1386
00:35:02,020 --> 00:35:03,000
just do it

1387
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:03,760
this is about placement

1388
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:04,460
we just want to know

1389
00:35:04,460 --> 00:35:05,280
if this is going to kill me

1390
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:05,860
that's all

1391
00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:06,120
right

1392
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:06,520
and he was like

1393
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:07,200
I'm not answering

1394
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:08,220
look dude

1395
00:35:08,220 --> 00:35:08,940
I just want to know

1396
00:35:08,940 --> 00:35:09,540
if this is going to kill me

1397
00:35:09,540 --> 00:35:09,860
that's it

1398
00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:11,400
is this going to kill my friend

1399
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,180
and he's like

1400
00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:13,180
I can't comment

1401
00:35:13,180 --> 00:35:13,500
dog

1402
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:14,360
I can't

1403
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:15,360
so it's not that

1404
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:16,640
we wouldn't talk to them

1405
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:17,840
they won't talk to us

1406
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:18,740
and it makes us feel

1407
00:35:18,740 --> 00:35:19,180
really sad

1408
00:35:19,180 --> 00:35:19,600
yeah

1409
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:22,600
let me address it

1410
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:23,080
from a different

1411
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:24,060
scientific perspective

1412
00:35:24,060 --> 00:35:25,080
because there are

1413
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,320
those academics

1414
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:27,180
who will say

1415
00:35:27,180 --> 00:35:27,820
I personally

1416
00:35:27,820 --> 00:35:28,620
don't want to participate

1417
00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:29,280
and they have the right

1418
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,240
to not participate

1419
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:32,260
however there are

1420
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:32,580
committees

1421
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:33,660
at the universities

1422
00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:35,100
who will look at

1423
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:35,820
an academic

1424
00:35:35,820 --> 00:35:36,400
and say

1425
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:37,400
did you participate

1426
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:37,880
in this

1427
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:39,320
you submitted this

1428
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:39,940
when you asked

1429
00:35:39,940 --> 00:35:40,500
for a promotion

1430
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:41,220
or for tenure

1431
00:35:41,220 --> 00:35:42,480
and now we have

1432
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:43,200
a problem with you

1433
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:44,520
and so

1434
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:45,260
they're not

1435
00:35:45,260 --> 00:35:46,060
they're never

1436
00:35:46,060 --> 00:35:46,640
they're never

1437
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:47,460
going to get clarification

1438
00:35:47,460 --> 00:35:47,900
until he says

1439
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:48,980
hey can I do this

1440
00:35:48,980 --> 00:35:49,340
are you guys

1441
00:35:49,340 --> 00:35:49,800
going to throw this

1442
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:50,500
back on my face

1443
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:51,760
can you tell us

1444
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:52,080
more about

1445
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:52,420
what we're going to

1446
00:35:52,420 --> 00:35:52,920
throw on your face

1447
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:53,160
later

1448
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:55,100
it's all about

1449
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:55,440
liability

1450
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:56,800
because if I said

1451
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:57,700
oh yeah

1452
00:35:57,700 --> 00:35:58,220
you can implant

1453
00:35:58,220 --> 00:35:58,920
this right here

1454
00:35:58,920 --> 00:35:59,980
and it won't kill you

1455
00:35:59,980 --> 00:36:00,900
and then it kills somebody

1456
00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:01,480
because they had

1457
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:02,640
some other issue

1458
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:03,200
in their system

1459
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,020
that was unique

1460
00:36:04,020 --> 00:36:04,740
to their genetics

1461
00:36:04,740 --> 00:36:05,320
and they die

1462
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:06,380
you personally

1463
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:06,940
are on the line

1464
00:36:06,940 --> 00:36:07,500
because you said

1465
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:07,940
that to them

1466
00:36:08,420 --> 00:36:09,520
so one of these

1467
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,060
people has

1468
00:36:10,060 --> 00:36:10,920
sworn an oath

1469
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:11,700
right

1470
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,200
to basically

1471
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,060
take care of people

1472
00:36:14,940 --> 00:36:15,380
right

1473
00:36:15,380 --> 00:36:17,060
and do what's

1474
00:36:17,060 --> 00:36:17,560
in the best interest

1475
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:18,400
for somebody's health

1476
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:18,720
right

1477
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:20,160
but there's

1478
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,340
another class of people

1479
00:36:21,340 --> 00:36:21,960
that is like

1480
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:22,680
holding out

1481
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,160
for their own

1482
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:23,580
like that

1483
00:36:23,580 --> 00:36:24,620
or one of the

1484
00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:26,240
core research credentials

1485
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:27,280
that don't have that

1486
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,100
obligation

1487
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:28,840
about the health

1488
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:28,980
care

1489
00:36:28,980 --> 00:36:31,960
I think if we

1490
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:32,660
if we kind of

1491
00:36:32,660 --> 00:36:33,540
there's kind of

1492
00:36:33,540 --> 00:36:33,980
a framing

1493
00:36:33,980 --> 00:36:34,580
that I like

1494
00:36:34,580 --> 00:36:35,200
to look at

1495
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:35,740
where you have

1496
00:36:35,740 --> 00:36:36,840
the norm line

1497
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:37,140
right

1498
00:36:37,140 --> 00:36:37,960
here's the norm line

1499
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:38,420
of everybody

1500
00:36:38,420 --> 00:36:39,040
has cell phones

1501
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:39,500
in their pockets

1502
00:36:39,500 --> 00:36:40,220
and video cameras

1503
00:36:40,220 --> 00:36:41,160
and this is no big deal

1504
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,160
but 15 years ago

1505
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:42,780
we didn't

1506
00:36:42,780 --> 00:36:44,640
and anything above that

1507
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:45,160
was considered

1508
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,140
an enhancing technology

1509
00:36:46,140 --> 00:36:46,880
oh my gosh

1510
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,600
you have a camera phone

1511
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:48,160
that's insane

1512
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,680
that's not evenly distributed

1513
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:50,660
this is horrifying

1514
00:36:50,660 --> 00:36:51,480
oh my gosh

1515
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,520
our privacy is dead

1516
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:52,860
and then

1517
00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:53,960
a few years later

1518
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:54,840
it's not really a big deal

1519
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:55,920
because everybody's got it

1520
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:56,220
right

1521
00:36:56,220 --> 00:36:57,660
so anything above that

1522
00:36:57,660 --> 00:36:57,860
you know

1523
00:36:57,860 --> 00:36:58,640
military technology

1524
00:36:58,640 --> 00:36:59,480
is usually enhancing

1525
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:00,740
and then you have

1526
00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:01,540
below that

1527
00:37:01,540 --> 00:37:02,580
that gets you back

1528
00:37:02,580 --> 00:37:03,500
to the current norm

1529
00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:04,000
you have this

1530
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,000
restorative technology

1531
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:05,600
I

1532
00:37:05,740 --> 00:37:06,080
glasses

1533
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:06,840
medical devices

1534
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:07,620
things like that

1535
00:37:07,620 --> 00:37:08,840
and so what I'd like

1536
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:09,440
and then you have

1537
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:10,220
this other vector

1538
00:37:10,220 --> 00:37:10,640
over here

1539
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:11,140
which is art

1540
00:37:11,660 --> 00:37:12,400
and art

1541
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,220
you could say

1542
00:37:13,220 --> 00:37:13,780
well this is art

1543
00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:14,240
so you don't

1544
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:15,220
you can't regulate it

1545
00:37:15,220 --> 00:37:15,460
right

1546
00:37:15,460 --> 00:37:16,720
so it's about

1547
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:17,640
reframing it

1548
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:18,400
so that they don't

1549
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,140
have a legal liability

1550
00:37:19,140 --> 00:37:20,020
it's oh well

1551
00:37:20,020 --> 00:37:20,460
I'm going to put

1552
00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:21,400
an ear on my hand

1553
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:22,560
well okay

1554
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:23,260
I'm allowed to do that

1555
00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:23,880
because I'm an artist

1556
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:24,480
right

1557
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,340
so I'm also interested

1558
00:37:26,340 --> 00:37:27,000
in these like

1559
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,460
little tiny legal gaps

1560
00:37:28,460 --> 00:37:29,340
that you can exploit

1561
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,480
to make your things

1562
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:32,360
art or something

1563
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:33,240
that you can experiment

1564
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:34,020
with and publish

1565
00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:34,940
not that it works

1566
00:37:34,940 --> 00:37:35,380
in all these

1567
00:37:35,380 --> 00:37:35,640
studios

1568
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:36,600
right

1569
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,260
so let's see

1570
00:37:39,260 --> 00:37:40,340
like whether

1571
00:37:40,340 --> 00:37:41,620
that's reasonable

1572
00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:42,060
or not

1573
00:37:42,060 --> 00:37:42,500
like I think

1574
00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:43,080
in some cases

1575
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,920
if you write about it

1576
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:45,480
and you kind of do

1577
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:46,420
like the legal thing

1578
00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:47,340
as an art as well

1579
00:37:47,340 --> 00:37:48,300
there might be gaps

1580
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:49,040
you can get through

1581
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,420
but again you could

1582
00:37:50,420 --> 00:37:51,220
things could change

1583
00:37:51,220 --> 00:37:51,760
and you could get

1584
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:52,900
totally destroyed

1585
00:37:52,900 --> 00:37:53,260
right

1586
00:37:53,260 --> 00:37:54,100
so this is

1587
00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:54,900
an inherent thing

1588
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:55,840
but the question

1589
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:56,540
I have is

1590
00:37:56,540 --> 00:37:58,120
do people have a right

1591
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,220
to restorative technology

1592
00:38:00,220 --> 00:38:01,600
if we think about

1593
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:02,120
vaccinations

1594
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:03,420
and penicillin

1595
00:38:03,420 --> 00:38:04,140
and all these things

1596
00:38:04,140 --> 00:38:04,540
that are about

1597
00:38:04,540 --> 00:38:05,180
a public health

1598
00:38:05,180 --> 00:38:05,580
crisis

1599
00:38:05,580 --> 00:38:06,860
and suddenly

1600
00:38:06,860 --> 00:38:08,280
everybody needs

1601
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:08,820
this thing

1602
00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:09,360
because there's

1603
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:09,960
some CRISPR thing

1604
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:10,660
that takes out

1605
00:38:10,660 --> 00:38:11,360
something horrible

1606
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:12,040
that could spread

1607
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:12,700
to other people

1608
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,260
then wouldn't that

1609
00:38:15,260 --> 00:38:16,040
be a reason

1610
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,000
to have these things

1611
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:17,780
democratized

1612
00:38:17,780 --> 00:38:18,680
so it's 20 bucks

1613
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:19,320
and you go get it

1614
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:20,620
at the CVS pharmacy

1615
00:38:20,620 --> 00:38:21,380
as a shot

1616
00:38:21,380 --> 00:38:22,560
and everybody has

1617
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:23,100
to have it

1618
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:23,980
versus you pay

1619
00:38:23,980 --> 00:38:24,680
$100,000

1620
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:25,700
as a very small

1621
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:26,140
individual

1622
00:38:26,140 --> 00:38:26,960
with a trust fund

1623
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:27,560
that can have it

1624
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:28,040
and nobody else

1625
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:28,600
can have it

1626
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:29,480
and I wonder

1627
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,860
if we come upon

1628
00:38:31,860 --> 00:38:32,500
things that are

1629
00:38:33,420 --> 00:38:34,220
good enough

1630
00:38:34,220 --> 00:38:34,780
or like

1631
00:38:34,780 --> 00:38:35,520
as crucial

1632
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:36,260
to public health

1633
00:38:36,260 --> 00:38:37,100
that we

1634
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:38,340
that suddenly

1635
00:38:38,340 --> 00:38:39,400
there's an incentive

1636
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:40,180
for everybody

1637
00:38:40,180 --> 00:38:40,740
to have it

1638
00:38:40,740 --> 00:38:41,440
it still will make

1639
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:41,960
people money

1640
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:42,840
it will still make

1641
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:43,900
insurance companies money

1642
00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:44,460
this is being

1643
00:38:44,460 --> 00:38:45,160
very utopian

1644
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:46,220
but I'm wondering

1645
00:38:46,220 --> 00:38:47,660
if that's a possibility

1646
00:38:51,780 --> 00:38:52,820
so like

1647
00:38:52,820 --> 00:38:53,380
in terms of

1648
00:38:53,380 --> 00:38:54,160
like the people

1649
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:55,180
who don't

1650
00:38:55,180 --> 00:38:56,180
follow the rules

1651
00:38:56,180 --> 00:38:56,600
necessarily

1652
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:57,320
like

1653
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:58,400
I think they're

1654
00:38:58,400 --> 00:38:59,540
absolutely necessary

1655
00:38:59,540 --> 00:39:00,080
to the health

1656
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:00,560
of the system

1657
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:00,980
in general

1658
00:39:00,980 --> 00:39:01,980
so looking at it

1659
00:39:01,980 --> 00:39:02,800
from a broader

1660
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:03,880
systemic perspective

1661
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,040
any system

1662
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:05,480
of control

1663
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:06,300
has to have a little

1664
00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:07,160
chaos at the edges

1665
00:39:07,780 --> 00:39:08,720
because if it doesn't

1666
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:09,480
then there's

1667
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,300
there's no resistance

1668
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:10,960
to people

1669
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:11,400
who would game

1670
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:11,820
the system

1671
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:13,420
so you know

1672
00:39:13,420 --> 00:39:14,060
like right now

1673
00:39:14,060 --> 00:39:15,200
like half the reason

1674
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:15,660
our fucking

1675
00:39:15,660 --> 00:39:16,480
financial system

1676
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:16,940
is fucked up

1677
00:39:16,940 --> 00:39:17,140
is because

1678
00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:17,940
people are gaming

1679
00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:18,400
the system

1680
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:19,400
and so

1681
00:39:19,980 --> 00:39:21,080
you need people

1682
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:22,060
who can innovate

1683
00:39:22,060 --> 00:39:22,960
faster than

1684
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:23,480
they can game

1685
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:23,940
the system

1686
00:39:23,940 --> 00:39:24,860
you need people

1687
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:25,840
who can

1688
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:26,920
introduce

1689
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:28,600
unexpected elements

1690
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:29,880
so that the system

1691
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:30,440
can change

1692
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:31,120
any system

1693
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:31,940
that's total order

1694
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:33,680
is is just ripe

1695
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:34,160
for manipulation

1696
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:34,860
and there's

1697
00:39:34,860 --> 00:39:35,620
no opportunity

1698
00:39:35,620 --> 00:39:36,340
for the system

1699
00:39:36,340 --> 00:39:36,740
to adapt

1700
00:39:36,740 --> 00:39:37,760
and so

1701
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,180
when you have

1702
00:39:39,180 --> 00:39:39,800
people who are like

1703
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:40,580
I don't give a fuck

1704
00:39:40,580 --> 00:39:41,400
I'm putting this thing

1705
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:41,720
in my arm

1706
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,200
then you know

1707
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:43,680
you have

1708
00:39:44,380 --> 00:39:44,860
opportunities

1709
00:39:44,860 --> 00:39:45,760
for new ideas

1710
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:46,280
to spread

1711
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:46,980
you have opportunities

1712
00:39:46,980 --> 00:39:49,500
for the regulatory

1713
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:50,600
bodies to look at

1714
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:51,460
new things happening

1715
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:52,220
and say well fuck

1716
00:39:52,220 --> 00:39:52,880
we never expected

1717
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:53,800
anybody to do that

1718
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,640
you have opportunities

1719
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,700
for the system

1720
00:39:57,700 --> 00:39:58,680
to adapt in ways

1721
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,340
that make it

1722
00:39:59,340 --> 00:39:59,780
resistant

1723
00:39:59,780 --> 00:40:00,640
to people

1724
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:01,300
who would capitalize

1725
00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:01,940
on the system

1726
00:40:01,940 --> 00:40:03,080
from below

1727
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:03,820
and from above

1728
00:40:03,820 --> 00:40:04,240
so like

1729
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:05,560
bioterrorists

1730
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,000
you know

1731
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:07,280
fucking

1732
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:08,880
like tyrannical

1733
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:09,280
governments

1734
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:10,080
that would use

1735
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:10,640
this shit

1736
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:11,320
on their population

1737
00:40:12,620 --> 00:40:13,660
you know

1738
00:40:13,660 --> 00:40:14,020
fucking

1739
00:40:14,020 --> 00:40:15,600
greedy industrialists

1740
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:16,120
who would use

1741
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:16,440
this stuff

1742
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:17,020
to their advantage

1743
00:40:17,020 --> 00:40:17,960
and so when you've

1744
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:18,460
always got

1745
00:40:18,460 --> 00:40:19,260
a little bit

1746
00:40:19,260 --> 00:40:19,620
of unknown

1747
00:40:19,620 --> 00:40:20,380
at the edges

1748
00:40:20,380 --> 00:40:21,040
and you've got

1749
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:21,780
people who are

1750
00:40:21,780 --> 00:40:22,260
willing to

1751
00:40:22,260 --> 00:40:23,800
hack the gaming

1752
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:24,500
that they're doing

1753
00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:26,480
then you can

1754
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:27,200
create a

1755
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:28,740
path out

1756
00:40:28,740 --> 00:40:29,280
of them

1757
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:30,140
capitalizing

1758
00:40:30,140 --> 00:40:30,440
and getting

1759
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:31,020
total control

1760
00:40:31,020 --> 00:40:31,540
of the system

1761
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:33,280
I think it was

1762
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:34,100
a comment or question

1763
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:34,540
over here

1764
00:40:34,540 --> 00:40:35,540
I was just going

1765
00:40:35,540 --> 00:40:35,980
to comment

1766
00:40:35,980 --> 00:40:36,860
that when you're

1767
00:40:36,860 --> 00:40:37,400
talking about

1768
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:38,680
peer review

1769
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:39,820
and something

1770
00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:40,780
similar to an IRB

1771
00:40:40,780 --> 00:40:41,220
or board

1772
00:40:41,220 --> 00:40:42,120
in terms of

1773
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,060
biohacking community

1774
00:40:43,060 --> 00:40:44,100
that already exists

1775
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:45,100
because it's part

1776
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:45,760
of the open science

1777
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:46,720
community

1778
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:48,260
there is peer review

1779
00:40:48,260 --> 00:40:49,440
people periodically

1780
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:50,340
call the biohacking

1781
00:40:50,340 --> 00:40:51,160
boards and say

1782
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,100
oh I want to do this

1783
00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:53,100
and they immediately

1784
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:53,660
get feedback

1785
00:40:53,660 --> 00:40:54,040
from people

1786
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:54,360
who have either

1787
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:54,840
tried it

1788
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:55,540
or have some

1789
00:40:55,540 --> 00:40:57,020
sort of specialization

1790
00:40:57,020 --> 00:40:57,720
and can give them

1791
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:57,940
feedback

1792
00:40:57,940 --> 00:40:58,660
I know that's

1793
00:40:58,660 --> 00:40:59,080
not reasonable

1794
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:00,660
and completely

1795
00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:01,700
unfiltered too

1796
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:02,460
like hey man

1797
00:41:02,460 --> 00:41:03,220
your shit's stupid

1798
00:41:12,980 --> 00:41:14,260
yeah well that's

1799
00:41:14,260 --> 00:41:14,600
a great

1800
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:15,280
I mean that's

1801
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:15,880
a I mean

1802
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:16,460
we see those

1803
00:41:16,460 --> 00:41:17,380
things circle

1804
00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:18,480
through and that

1805
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:19,120
that would be

1806
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:19,400
a really

1807
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:19,980
interesting

1808
00:41:19,980 --> 00:41:20,880
place

1809
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:21,840
because that

1810
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:22,600
that does

1811
00:41:23,740 --> 00:41:24,780
you know

1812
00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:25,200
sort of

1813
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:25,460
enforce

1814
00:41:25,460 --> 00:41:26,760
and I'm using

1815
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:27,020
the word

1816
00:41:27,020 --> 00:41:27,200
enforce

1817
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,340
in the lightest

1818
00:41:28,340 --> 00:41:28,840
possible way

1819
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,320
just a rigor

1820
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:31,240
you know

1821
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:32,240
from that

1822
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:32,680
perspective

1823
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:33,520
without necessarily

1824
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:34,160
imposing

1825
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:35,260
you know

1826
00:41:35,260 --> 00:41:35,880
any controls

1827
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:36,500
on the

1828
00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:37,480
on the overall

1829
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:38,000
hypotheses

1830
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:38,600
or the folks

1831
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:39,220
that things are

1832
00:41:39,220 --> 00:41:39,520
going after

1833
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:39,940
the other thing

1834
00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:40,380
I was going to say

1835
00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:41,040
about regulation

1836
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:41,820
in general

1837
00:41:41,820 --> 00:41:42,320
was just

1838
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:42,840
you know

1839
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:43,160
you sort of

1840
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:43,580
came up with

1841
00:41:43,580 --> 00:41:44,160
the example

1842
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:44,900
of the CRISPR

1843
00:41:44,900 --> 00:41:45,540
you know

1844
00:41:45,540 --> 00:41:46,320
we find some

1845
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:46,700
solution

1846
00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:47,240
and it's in the

1847
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:47,780
CVS

1848
00:41:48,820 --> 00:41:49,820
the interesting

1849
00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:50,760
thing I think

1850
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:51,460
about the disruption

1851
00:41:51,460 --> 00:41:52,040
in this space

1852
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:52,780
is just speed

1853
00:41:52,780 --> 00:41:53,800
you know

1854
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:54,280
I mean

1855
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,440
look at how long

1856
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:56,140
it takes

1857
00:41:56,140 --> 00:41:57,020
even something

1858
00:41:57,020 --> 00:41:57,880
that's desperately

1859
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:58,380
needed

1860
00:41:58,380 --> 00:41:59,800
to get through

1861
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:00,860
a regulatory

1862
00:42:00,860 --> 00:42:01,440
process

1863
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:02,400
and get through

1864
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:03,140
trials

1865
00:42:03,140 --> 00:42:04,100
I mean

1866
00:42:04,100 --> 00:42:04,220
I mean

1867
00:42:04,220 --> 00:42:04,400
I just

1868
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,380
I just want to

1869
00:42:05,380 --> 00:42:06,020
blow that whole

1870
00:42:06,580 --> 00:42:07,320
thing up

1871
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:08,140
so I just want to

1872
00:42:08,140 --> 00:42:08,440
come back

1873
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:08,780
just to your

1874
00:42:08,780 --> 00:42:09,260
comment first

1875
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:10,980
actually I think

1876
00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:11,420
to me

1877
00:42:11,420 --> 00:42:12,540
I edit journals

1878
00:42:12,540 --> 00:42:13,660
we were having

1879
00:42:13,660 --> 00:42:14,320
dinner last night

1880
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:14,660
one of our

1881
00:42:14,660 --> 00:42:15,420
many conversations

1882
00:42:15,420 --> 00:42:16,540
was about how

1883
00:42:16,540 --> 00:42:17,520
broken peer review

1884
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:17,820
is

1885
00:42:17,820 --> 00:42:18,500
fake journals

1886
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:19,460
and also

1887
00:42:19,460 --> 00:42:20,360
conflict of interest

1888
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:21,020
in peer review

1889
00:42:21,020 --> 00:42:21,460
so actually

1890
00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:21,780
I think

1891
00:42:21,780 --> 00:42:22,460
crowdsourced

1892
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:23,100
kind of feedback

1893
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:24,320
in many ways

1894
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:24,960
is stronger

1895
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:25,640
and better

1896
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:26,500
than traditional

1897
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:27,200
peer review

1898
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,040
the other thing

1899
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:28,700
I'd like to point out

1900
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:29,760
many people don't know this

1901
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:30,660
but unlike most

1902
00:42:30,660 --> 00:42:31,260
other countries

1903
00:42:31,260 --> 00:42:31,740
in the world

1904
00:42:31,740 --> 00:42:33,060
at the moment

1905
00:42:33,060 --> 00:42:33,820
the largest

1906
00:42:33,820 --> 00:42:34,040
institutional

1907
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:35,100
review boards

1908
00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:35,600
in the US

1909
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:36,720
that actually

1910
00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:37,260
have contracts

1911
00:42:37,260 --> 00:42:37,680
with most

1912
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:38,660
academic centers

1913
00:42:38,660 --> 00:42:39,380
are owned

1914
00:42:39,380 --> 00:42:40,180
by private equity

1915
00:42:40,180 --> 00:42:41,440
and they're actually

1916
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:42,580
monetizing the data

1917
00:42:42,580 --> 00:42:43,320
that comes into

1918
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:43,700
the institutional

1919
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:44,220
review boards

1920
00:42:44,220 --> 00:42:44,900
so even

1921
00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:45,700
what we think

1922
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:45,980
of as

1923
00:42:45,980 --> 00:42:46,180
institutional

1924
00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:46,660
review boards

1925
00:42:46,660 --> 00:42:47,340
private equity

1926
00:42:47,340 --> 00:42:47,720
owned

1927
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:48,820
and very much

1928
00:42:48,820 --> 00:42:49,420
for profit

1929
00:42:49,420 --> 00:42:50,460
and most people

1930
00:42:50,460 --> 00:42:51,020
even in

1931
00:42:51,020 --> 00:42:51,820
industry

1932
00:42:51,820 --> 00:42:52,640
don't really

1933
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:53,420
understand that

1934
00:42:53,420 --> 00:42:53,740
yeah

1935
00:42:53,740 --> 00:42:54,500
I was definitely

1936
00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:55,380
not advising

1937
00:42:55,380 --> 00:42:56,740
for commercial

1938
00:42:56,740 --> 00:42:57,920
yeah yeah yeah

1939
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,080
but the thing is

1940
00:42:59,080 --> 00:42:59,340
the people

1941
00:42:59,340 --> 00:42:59,920
don't even realize

1942
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:00,380
in the US

1943
00:43:00,380 --> 00:43:00,960
even those

1944
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:01,520
RRBs

1945
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:01,760
which are

1946
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:02,160
traditionally

1947
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:02,660
thought of

1948
00:43:02,660 --> 00:43:03,080
as you know

1949
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:03,600
in

1950
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:04,340
independent

1951
00:43:04,340 --> 00:43:05,280
independent

1952
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:06,820
the I does not

1953
00:43:06,820 --> 00:43:07,120
stand for

1954
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:07,240
independent

1955
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:07,880
exactly on that

1956
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:08,500
line and not

1957
00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:08,960
in defense

1958
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:09,600
of the RRB

1959
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:09,880
at all

1960
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:10,520
I share your pain

1961
00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:12,260
how though

1962
00:43:12,260 --> 00:43:13,680
can we

1963
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:14,460
as a community

1964
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:16,360
enforce the

1965
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:16,600
intent

1966
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:17,360
of an

1967
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:17,720
institutional

1968
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:18,660
review board

1969
00:43:19,380 --> 00:43:20,420
of protection

1970
00:43:20,420 --> 00:43:21,160
of participants

1971
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:21,740
and

1972
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:23,160
informed consent

1973
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,160
yeah

1974
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:25,100
I mean I think

1975
00:43:25,100 --> 00:43:25,920
so you're using

1976
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:26,440
the word enforce

1977
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:27,140
it's interesting

1978
00:43:27,140 --> 00:43:27,880
to me that

1979
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:28,580
now that

1980
00:43:28,580 --> 00:43:30,400
in that

1981
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:31,320
super lightweight

1982
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:31,740
so

1983
00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:33,320
so when you're

1984
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:33,480
going to

1985
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:34,200
so citizen

1986
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:34,700
scientists

1987
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:35,380
by hacking

1988
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:36,400
paradigm

1989
00:43:36,780 --> 00:43:37,480
I'm just not

1990
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:38,120
sure the

1991
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:38,680
genies out

1992
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:38,920
of both

1993
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:39,560
I'm not sure

1994
00:43:40,060 --> 00:43:40,880
how you can

1995
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:41,560
enforce it

1996
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:42,060
like you would

1997
00:43:42,060 --> 00:43:42,580
with employees

1998
00:43:42,580 --> 00:43:43,320
in a company

1999
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:43,840
or something

2000
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:44,480
yeah

2001
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:45,980
at what point

2002
00:43:45,980 --> 00:43:46,520
do you take it

2003
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:47,380
in terms of

2004
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:48,740
making sure

2005
00:43:48,740 --> 00:43:49,120
that the

2006
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:49,620
information

2007
00:43:49,620 --> 00:43:50,260
is available

2008
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:51,440
right

2009
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:52,460
from a standpoint

2010
00:43:52,460 --> 00:43:52,860
of

2011
00:43:52,860 --> 00:43:54,140
your friend

2012
00:43:54,140 --> 00:43:55,120
wants to know

2013
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:55,460
if this is

2014
00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:55,900
going to kill

2015
00:43:55,900 --> 00:43:56,080
him

2016
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:56,540
right

2017
00:43:56,540 --> 00:43:56,900
really

2018
00:43:56,900 --> 00:43:57,480
aim for

2019
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:57,720
is

2020
00:43:58,060 --> 00:43:58,340
well

2021
00:43:58,340 --> 00:43:58,880
if

2022
00:43:58,880 --> 00:43:59,300
obviously

2023
00:43:59,300 --> 00:44:00,420
it should

2024
00:44:00,420 --> 00:44:02,020
or shouldn't

2025
00:44:02,020 --> 00:44:02,600
given we don't

2026
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:02,780
know

2027
00:44:02,780 --> 00:44:02,960
that

2028
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:03,100
, but

2029
00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:03,500
what else

2030
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:03,840
is under

2031
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:04,100
line

2032
00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:04,480
right

2033
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:04,940
here's

2034
00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:05,280
all the

2035
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:05,520
info

2036
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:05,820
that's

2037
00:44:05,820 --> 00:44:06,300
out there

2038
00:44:06,300 --> 00:44:06,660
that you

2039
00:44:06,660 --> 00:44:07,000
can take

2040
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:07,300
a look

2041
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:07,600
at

2042
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:08,060
and

2043
00:44:08,060 --> 00:44:08,640
kind of

2044
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:09,080
gauge

2045
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:09,660
your own

2046
00:44:09,660 --> 00:44:10,180
risks

2047
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:10,960
yeah

2048
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:11,700
that there's

2049
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:12,080
a reason

2050
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:12,400
why

2051
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:12,700
I

2052
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:13,480
what

2053
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:13,700
why

2054
00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:14,340
I

2055
00:44:14,340 --> 00:44:14,740
like

2056
00:44:14,740 --> 00:44:15,460
coming in

2057
00:44:15,460 --> 00:44:15,740
with my

2058
00:44:15,740 --> 00:44:16,060
optimal

2059
00:44:16,060 --> 00:44:16,480
stuff

2060
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,080
then just

2061
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:19,460
sharing

2062
00:44:19,460 --> 00:44:19,640
hey

2063
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:19,920
here's

2064
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:20,280
some stuff

2065
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:20,520
that you

2066
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:20,700
guys

2067
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:21,080
can look

2068
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:21,320
at

2069
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:21,720
right

2070
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:22,140
I

2071
00:44:22,140 --> 00:44:22,860
I don't

2072
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:23,380
pretend to

2073
00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:23,560
tell

2074
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:23,760
I'm

2075
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:24,260
telling you

2076
00:44:24,260 --> 00:44:24,900
to tell

2077
00:44:24,900 --> 00:44:25,100
anybody

2078
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:25,960
how to

2079
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:26,260
go through

2080
00:44:26,260 --> 00:44:26,800
the process

2081
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:27,680
but here's

2082
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:28,200
the starting

2083
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:28,400
point

2084
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:29,180
isn't that

2085
00:44:29,180 --> 00:44:29,520
kind of

2086
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:29,980
the ethos

2087
00:44:29,980 --> 00:44:30,260
we're going

2088
00:44:30,260 --> 00:44:30,800
for here

2089
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:31,000
yeah

2090
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:31,500
yeah

2091
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:32,180
exactly

2092
00:44:32,740 --> 00:44:33,460
where you

2093
00:44:33,460 --> 00:44:33,720
go

2094
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:35,220
try not

2095
00:44:35,220 --> 00:44:35,500
to screw

2096
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:35,780
it up

2097
00:44:35,780 --> 00:44:36,040
for anybody

2098
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:36,400
else

2099
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:36,680
right

2100
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:37,320
and the

2101
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:37,700
best

2102
00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:38,260
and the

2103
00:44:38,260 --> 00:44:38,560
best

2104
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:39,140
information

2105
00:44:39,140 --> 00:44:39,640
too

2106
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:39,980
right

2107
00:44:39,980 --> 00:44:40,300
it's

2108
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:40,600
sometimes

2109
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:41,160
sometimes

2110
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:42,080
I'm not

2111
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:42,500
sort of

2112
00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:42,860
arguing

2113
00:44:42,860 --> 00:44:43,840
for or

2114
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:44,140
against

2115
00:44:44,140 --> 00:44:44,740
you know

2116
00:44:44,740 --> 00:44:45,560
a credentialed

2117
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:45,820
person

2118
00:44:45,820 --> 00:44:46,780
having

2119
00:44:46,780 --> 00:44:47,480
more

2120
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:48,040
knowledge

2121
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:48,420
or more

2122
00:44:48,420 --> 00:44:48,780
information

2123
00:44:48,780 --> 00:44:49,060
but

2124
00:44:49,060 --> 00:44:49,300
sometimes

2125
00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:50,420
there is

2126
00:44:50,420 --> 00:44:50,800
experience

2127
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,320
in the

2128
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:51,660
field

2129
00:44:51,660 --> 00:44:51,880
that

2130
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:52,360
helps

2131
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:53,180
you

2132
00:44:53,180 --> 00:44:53,640
pull

2133
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:54,080
together

2134
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:54,540
things

2135
00:44:54,540 --> 00:44:54,900
that are

2136
00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:55,160
across

2137
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:55,640
studies

2138
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:56,240
or across

2139
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:56,740
spaces

2140
00:44:56,740 --> 00:44:57,340
to

2141
00:44:57,340 --> 00:44:58,100
impact

2142
00:44:58,100 --> 00:44:58,680
and I'm

2143
00:44:58,680 --> 00:44:59,280
one of

2144
00:44:59,280 --> 00:44:59,540
the people

2145
00:44:59,540 --> 00:44:59,780
where

2146
00:44:59,780 --> 00:45:00,080
you know

2147
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:00,180
when

2148
00:45:00,180 --> 00:45:00,240
I'm

2149
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:00,500
my friend

2150
00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:01,140
asked me

2151
00:45:01,140 --> 00:45:01,360
where to

2152
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:01,640
put their

2153
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:01,980
electrodes

2154
00:45:01,980 --> 00:45:02,400
I'm like

2155
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,040
I'm giving

2156
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:03,360
you the

2157
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:03,740
papers

2158
00:45:03,740 --> 00:45:06,040
and the

2159
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:06,820
whole raft

2160
00:45:06,820 --> 00:45:07,460
of stuff

2161
00:45:07,460 --> 00:45:08,020
and I'm

2162
00:45:08,020 --> 00:45:08,480
telling you

2163
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:08,840
how I

2164
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:09,420
derived

2165
00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:09,760
that

2166
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:10,760
thought

2167
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:11,400
process

2168
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:12,200
and you

2169
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:12,740
tell me

2170
00:45:12,740 --> 00:45:13,200
if it

2171
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:13,540
works

2172
00:45:13,540 --> 00:45:13,760
or it

2173
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:13,980
doesn't

2174
00:45:13,980 --> 00:45:14,180
work

2175
00:45:14,180 --> 00:45:14,440
for you

2176
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:15,960
right

2177
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:16,640
exactly

2178
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:17,940
right

2179
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:19,240
right

2180
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:21,160
right

2181
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:25,340
but that

2182
00:45:25,340 --> 00:45:26,360
seems like

2183
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:26,780
a good

2184
00:45:26,780 --> 00:45:27,960
version of

2185
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:28,640
some type

2186
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:29,100
of informed

2187
00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:30,080
consent in

2188
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:30,800
a I

2189
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:31,300
mean obviously

2190
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:31,700
there's a

2191
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:32,400
there's also

2192
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:32,900
the relationship

2193
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:33,280
with the

2194
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:33,880
between the

2195
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:34,560
person if

2196
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:35,040
there is a

2197
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:35,740
someone doing

2198
00:45:35,740 --> 00:45:36,220
the procedure

2199
00:45:36,220 --> 00:45:36,620
and someone

2200
00:45:36,620 --> 00:45:37,360
receiving the

2201
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:37,980
procedure that

2202
00:45:37,980 --> 00:45:39,800
also you

2203
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:40,260
know I think

2204
00:45:40,260 --> 00:45:41,080
is maybe a

2205
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:41,360
little bit

2206
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:42,100
higher level

2207
00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:42,520
of informed

2208
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,280
consent than

2209
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:47,720
right exactly

2210
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:51,960
I think

2211
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:52,420
part of the

2212
00:45:52,420 --> 00:45:53,000
problem that

2213
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:53,140
we're

2214
00:45:53,140 --> 00:45:53,540
experiencing

2215
00:45:53,540 --> 00:45:53,860
by

2216
00:45:53,860 --> 00:45:54,540
is that

2217
00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:54,820
it's

2218
00:45:54,820 --> 00:45:55,760
indistinguishable

2219
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:56,400
from medicine

2220
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:57,760
medicine is

2221
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:58,820
different than

2222
00:45:58,820 --> 00:45:59,500
biohacking

2223
00:45:59,500 --> 00:45:59,740
it's a

2224
00:45:59,740 --> 00:46:00,000
different

2225
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:00,420
discipline

2226
00:46:00,420 --> 00:46:01,080
a discipline

2227
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:01,580
that has

2228
00:46:01,580 --> 00:46:02,440
acceptable

2229
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:02,920
risk

2230
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:03,360
yeah

2231
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:03,720
and the

2232
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:04,160
thing is

2233
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:04,740
if we

2234
00:46:04,740 --> 00:46:05,020
were to

2235
00:46:05,020 --> 00:46:05,480
split

2236
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:06,040
these two

2237
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:06,600
in

2238
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:06,920
academia

2239
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:08,060
in some

2240
00:46:08,060 --> 00:46:08,380
way

2241
00:46:08,380 --> 00:46:09,140
we would

2242
00:46:09,140 --> 00:46:09,420
find

2243
00:46:09,420 --> 00:46:09,720
ourselves

2244
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:10,440
able to

2245
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:10,940
do things

2246
00:46:10,940 --> 00:46:11,460
at a

2247
00:46:11,460 --> 00:46:11,780
speed

2248
00:46:11,780 --> 00:46:12,420
which

2249
00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:12,780
could then

2250
00:46:12,780 --> 00:46:12,880
be

2251
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:13,380
beneficial

2252
00:46:13,380 --> 00:46:14,380
to the

2253
00:46:14,380 --> 00:46:14,660
medical

2254
00:46:14,660 --> 00:46:15,020
community

2255
00:46:15,020 --> 00:46:15,780
in a

2256
00:46:15,780 --> 00:46:16,160
backwards

2257
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:16,480
way

2258
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:16,860
yeah

2259
00:46:16,860 --> 00:46:17,480
absolutely

2260
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,020
and guess

2261
00:46:19,020 --> 00:46:19,300
what

2262
00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:20,080
now we

2263
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:20,940
can help

2264
00:46:20,940 --> 00:46:21,420
you in

2265
00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:21,760
the medical

2266
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:22,180
industry

2267
00:46:22,180 --> 00:46:22,880
when people

2268
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:23,300
have agreed

2269
00:46:23,300 --> 00:46:23,820
to accept

2270
00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:24,200
the risk

2271
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:24,740
absolutely

2272
00:46:24,740 --> 00:46:25,580
but yet

2273
00:46:25,580 --> 00:46:26,480
our view

2274
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:26,940
on body

2275
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:27,180
autonomy

2276
00:46:27,180 --> 00:46:27,680
when it

2277
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:28,020
comes to

2278
00:46:28,020 --> 00:46:28,260
medicine

2279
00:46:28,260 --> 00:46:29,180
is just

2280
00:46:29,180 --> 00:46:29,680
not there

2281
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:30,140
you don't

2282
00:46:30,140 --> 00:46:30,420
own your

2283
00:46:30,420 --> 00:46:30,780
medicine

2284
00:46:30,780 --> 00:46:31,420
you're not

2285
00:46:31,420 --> 00:46:31,720
allowed to

2286
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:32,220
heal yourself

2287
00:46:32,220 --> 00:46:33,000
you need to

2288
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:33,220
go to the

2289
00:46:33,220 --> 00:46:33,540
guy with

2290
00:46:33,540 --> 00:46:33,960
the paper

2291
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:34,640
you can

2292
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:34,980
see it

2293
00:46:34,980 --> 00:46:35,400
it's on

2294
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:35,500
the

2295
00:46:35,500 --> 00:46:35,700
fridge

2296
00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:36,040
it's on

2297
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:37,720
it actually

2298
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:38,040
made me

2299
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:38,300
think of

2300
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:38,400
that

2301
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:38,540
because

2302
00:46:38,540 --> 00:46:38,860
my dad

2303
00:46:38,860 --> 00:46:39,160
has an

2304
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:39,540
implanted

2305
00:46:39,540 --> 00:46:40,260
defibrillator

2306
00:46:40,260 --> 00:46:40,780
and I

2307
00:46:40,780 --> 00:46:41,120
realized

2308
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:42,320
we don't

2309
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:42,700
have access

2310
00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:43,100
to any

2311
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:43,320
of that

2312
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:43,620
data

2313
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:44,240
he doesn't

2314
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:44,860
actually

2315
00:46:44,860 --> 00:46:45,600
own that

2316
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:46,040
implant

2317
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:47,560
it's like

2318
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:48,720
a little

2319
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:49,240
resident

2320
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:49,740
in his

2321
00:46:49,740 --> 00:46:50,080
body

2322
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:50,500
that's

2323
00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:50,800
essentially

2324
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:51,300
owned by

2325
00:46:51,300 --> 00:46:52,000
Medtronic

2326
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:55,460
I'm a

2327
00:46:55,460 --> 00:46:56,000
neuroscientist

2328
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:56,260
I can

2329
00:46:56,260 --> 00:46:56,500
actually

2330
00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:57,100
do something

2331
00:46:57,100 --> 00:46:57,440
with that

2332
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:57,720
data

2333
00:46:57,720 --> 00:46:58,020
if I

2334
00:46:58,020 --> 00:46:58,400
had it

2335
00:46:59,680 --> 00:46:59,980
I could

2336
00:46:59,980 --> 00:47:00,680
do all

2337
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:01,140
kinds of

2338
00:47:01,140 --> 00:47:01,360
things

2339
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:01,600
and

2340
00:47:02,980 --> 00:47:03,460
right

2341
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:07,920
yeah

2342
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:09,680
yeah

2343
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:10,960
that's

2344
00:47:12,140 --> 00:47:12,620
yeah

2345
00:47:12,620 --> 00:47:13,160
I keep

2346
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:13,440
thinking

2347
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:13,700
about

2348
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:14,420
I had

2349
00:47:14,420 --> 00:47:14,780
an employee

2350
00:47:14,780 --> 00:47:15,180
once that

2351
00:47:15,180 --> 00:47:15,600
had an

2352
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:16,120
insulin

2353
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:16,440
pump

2354
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:16,700
and he

2355
00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:17,000
was really

2356
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:17,300
excited

2357
00:47:17,300 --> 00:47:17,840
about it

2358
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:18,640
and then

2359
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:18,880
he got

2360
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:19,160
it done

2361
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:19,620
okay

2362
00:47:19,620 --> 00:47:19,980
great

2363
00:47:19,980 --> 00:47:20,520
so we had a

2364
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:20,840
one-on-one

2365
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:21,060
meeting

2366
00:47:21,060 --> 00:47:21,500
and he

2367
00:47:21,500 --> 00:47:21,920
beeped

2368
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:22,960
and I

2369
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:23,280
said

2370
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:23,980
huh

2371
00:47:23,980 --> 00:47:24,640
I can

2372
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:24,920
hear the

2373
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:25,100
implant

2374
00:47:25,100 --> 00:47:25,520
he said

2375
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:25,740
yeah

2376
00:47:25,740 --> 00:47:26,120
it needs

2377
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:26,360
to be

2378
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:26,980
refilled

2379
00:47:26,980 --> 00:47:28,060
so it

2380
00:47:28,060 --> 00:47:28,560
beeps

2381
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:28,940
can you

2382
00:47:28,940 --> 00:47:29,180
change

2383
00:47:29,180 --> 00:47:29,400
the

2384
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:29,600
alert

2385
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:29,660
so I

2386
00:47:29,660 --> 00:47:33,980
style. And he said, nope. And so this whole thing that he was so excited about, about

2387
00:47:33,980 --> 00:47:38,340
restoring to the norm and nobody noticing that he was just a cyborg, it would go off during

2388
00:47:38,340 --> 00:47:42,400
weddings and funerals, draw attention to him and make it seem like he was being rude. But

2389
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:46,440
then when he was at a really loud concert, he couldn't hear it. And that was a health risk to

2390
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,840
himself. And he couldn't go to the company and say, hey, why don't I have control over even

2391
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,120
the alert style? Because it was done. And he didn't even get to see all of the features of

2392
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,820
it before it got implanted because he was so excited about it. This was like the state of

2393
00:47:58,820 --> 00:48:03,320
the art. And so I actually wrote a book called Calm Technology, which is about allowing

2394
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,180
people to change alert styles. And you're going to have a different situation. You're not in

2395
00:48:07,180 --> 00:48:12,920
an assisted care home where the person who is taking care of you needs to hear that so they

2396
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,660
can refill the insulin pump. You're your own independent individual and you need to change

2397
00:48:17,140 --> 00:48:22,620
the alert style. And not even having control over that is so odd because now we'll have a

2398
00:48:22,620 --> 00:48:27,140
series of future in which all of us have different cyborg attachments and one is owned by

2399
00:48:27,140 --> 00:48:28,800
this company and one is owned by that company and one is owned by that company and one is

2400
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,460
owned by this company and they all fight with each other and then you had support between the

2401
00:48:32,460 --> 00:48:36,280
two so you could get some nice data out. Oh, but sorry, we closed down the API because it

2402
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:42,460
wasn't making any money. And that was my concern with like, you know, web 2.0 right now is

2403
00:48:42,460 --> 00:48:46,300
that there are a lot of companies that, you know, especially in like the qualified self

2404
00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:50,540
community, which is, oh, you can have access to your data or you can buy back yourself in a

2405
00:48:50,540 --> 00:48:54,900
way, right? We're buying back ourself and subscribing to ourself. And that, you know, if

2406
00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:57,680
you were in the Olympics, maybe you could hack these and get some data out. But then that

2407
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:58,720
would render that.

2408
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:04,320
Useless. But you had this kind of small mini utopia of, for a while, being able to access all

2409
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,920
the data, remix it, and people could make their own third party systems for analysis of that

2410
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,000
data, which was rendering the formerly invisible visible. And that was fantastic. But we

2411
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,860
might not see until like the next generation of the web how actually useful for all these

2412
00:49:17,860 --> 00:49:23,400
companies it is to allow that data. Because a hardware developer isn't necessarily always the

2413
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:28,180
best at software, as you can see with all these like home devices. It's like, oh, wow, this is a

2414
00:49:28,180 --> 00:49:33,160
Philips Hue Lite, but I can't really use the app because it's awful and it doesn't really work.

2415
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,960
So allowing third parties, especially also with like government data and things like that, to make

2416
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,640
the best interface for their purpose and make money off of that turns it into an ecosystem model

2417
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:47,200
that benefits both people. Because if I bought one of those Nike wristband things as somebody who

2418
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:52,080
advised the Nike accelerator and they've never finished their API and nobody could do anything

2419
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,400
with it, it would be really nice. I mean, more people would buy this because it would be more

2420
00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:01,360
useful to them. And no company can actually say, oh, I know all the different use cases for this

2421
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:06,560
technology. It's up to the customer to do that. And having this symbiotic relationship between the

2422
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,760
two would be useful for both parties. And it's really upsetting to see how terrified people with

2423
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:16,560
legal and these like old school industrial methods that they just say, oh, we need to close all of

2424
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,180
this off and we're fearful and then they wonder why nobody is buying their devices anymore. And I

2425
00:50:20,180 --> 00:50:25,580
think we have to get over this period of time where we realize there's an incentive for things to

2426
00:50:25,580 --> 00:50:31,680
be connected to at least the customer for that to happen. But we probably won't see this in this

2427
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:36,680
generation of the web. We have to have kind of the tide going out and it coming back in. And that's

2428
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,560
what really threw me into a depressive loop when all this stuff started shutting down. Because we

2429
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:46,520
go through periods of the web and data that are very open and exploratory and fun and people are

2430
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:51,920
remixing things and wow, these cool things and then, you know. And it just makes me feel awful.

2431
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,460
It's like, well, now it's all beige and corporate again and we lose all the

2432
00:50:55,460 --> 00:51:00,320
opportunity and the art. And you brought up Steve Kurtz which is a really interesting case. I

2433
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:05,640
might not get the case right but there's this guy Steve Kurtz and he was doing a bunch of art and he

2434
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:11,540
had this guy named Professor Farrell who was getting some non-interactive biomaterial for use in

2435
00:51:11,540 --> 00:51:14,880
these art exhibits. And he was very open about the fact that he was experimenting. And then his

2436
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:19,620
wife got sick or died or something. He called 911 and they said, oh, well, it must have been the

2437
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,260
biomaterial in your house. And so they made this big case out of it. And they said, you might have

2438
00:51:25,460 --> 00:51:30,380
killed your wife or something like that. And they went through his house with hazmat suits and

2439
00:51:30,380 --> 00:51:35,200
tried to figure it out and they tried to indict the professor for giving him this non-interactive

2440
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:41,380
biomaterial. And I was like, well, none of this was an issue. But it was this big landmark

2441
00:51:41,380 --> 00:51:47,140
case that this person doing art. And so when we talk about, is it okay for me? Is it going to

2442
00:51:47,140 --> 00:51:51,460
harm me? That's one level. But the next level is, is it going to harm somebody in my

2443
00:51:51,460 --> 00:51:55,260
household? And if you make a system and sell it to somebody else that interacts with

2444
00:51:55,260 --> 00:51:59,840
some cancer that they have in their system and triggers it, and there's a correlation tied by

2445
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:06,640
some police officer, like regulatory institution that has nothing to do with what you did, then are

2446
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:12,500
you on the line for all these other people? And so that was a scary case that came out where

2447
00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:17,240
they tried to get him in trouble for something that he actually didn't do, but out of this, out

2448
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:21,300
of this fear-based thing. So we have to wrap up, unfortunately. But I'm really glad that we

2449
00:52:21,300 --> 00:52:24,640
were easily able to solve this simple problem in our one hour panel.

2450
00:52:25,860 --> 00:52:30,820
So what I would say is I would propose to Nina that we continue actually talking about ethics

2451
00:52:30,820 --> 00:52:35,460
probably every year, because this is an evolving area. And obviously, we feel very passionate about

2452
00:52:35,460 --> 00:52:39,540
it. And the level of engagement we've got from the audience, thank you for doing the job for us.

2453
00:52:39,580 --> 00:52:43,680
Really appreciate that. And we'll definitely, if you like it, we'll continue. Really, I think this

2454
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:49,080
is an area we need to think about every year and try and maybe show some leadership even to more

2455
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,540
traditional groups. So thank you, everyone. I appreciate it.

2456
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:56,920
.