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Our next two speakers consist of the founder of DangerousMind.io, a biohacking, grinding,

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implantable tech and network security podcast established back in late September of 2016, as

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well as another member of the Dangerous Minds podcast with a master's in software engineering

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focusing on studying RFID vulnerabilities. As well, a PR director slash member of the board of

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directors of the ProPhase BioStudios in Austin, Texas. They clearly didn't really need

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introductions, but I like hearing the sound of my own voice. Here to present on their talks,

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Implant Show and Tell, Cooper and Cursor. Thank you all for coming. I'm

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here, as you can tell, I'm the one that's actually from Austin. He's from England. You'll be

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able to know that very distinctively later. If you didn't know that, I'm sorry. But anyway, we're

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here to give you a little bit of intro and talk about implantable technology because we have a

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party tonight that all of you are invited to. Implantable party. So you'll come and you can be

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augmented. Minimum donation is 50 bucks. If you want to give more, feel free to. We're going to

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get started. Like you said, who are we? I'm Cooper. I'm founder of Dangerous Minds. I'm also

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PR director for ProPhase BioStudios in Austin, Texas. And this is my cohost here, Cursor. He's

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one of the two cohosts that are based out of London, England. Now, we're going to start off

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with some basic terms because, well, when you're getting a nice intro to things, it's always

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good to get a basis of things that are going on. NFC is near field communication. It's a

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communication. Then RFID is radio frequency identification. So what is RFID? Well, hey, I'm

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the England one. RFID is a short range, low frequency, passive powered device used often as a

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security key in industry. NFC is sort of like a subsection of RFID. They're both considered

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radio frequency identifiers. But they are also used as a security key in the industry. So they're

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pretty similar. I mean, the NFC is slightly different in the terms that it can also be a sender

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and receiver. It's kind of a loose definition that the industry's gone with. So often enough, if

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you listen to the podcast, we highly suggest not to implant this at home. If you do, then you'll run

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into the same mistakes that we've made ourselves. We'd like you to learn from those mistakes and

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not repeat them. It's always best to, you know, seek out a trained professional that has done this

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before. Otherwise you'll end up learning just like us that there will be some blood, some pain.

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It's kind of like any piercing that you get. As you can tell by my ears, I've gauged them up a

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little bit. But, you know, so you might wonder what an implantation might consist of. So as it

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says, if you have a weak stomach, just close your eyes. I'll let you know when it's safe.

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Or maybe I won't. It is DEFCON, so I might troll you. But here's a nice little video that gives

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you an idea of what a basic implantation looks like. But, you know, it's just a simple insertion

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of the needle, then deploying of the chip. Once it's in there, then it'll take a little bit of

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time for the tissue to encapsulate and make it more stable.

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So you might be asking, where can I get some? Well, there's a few makers out there that offered

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augmentation, not just in the glass capsule, which is often called an X series. Danger Sings was one

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of the first to come out. Cyberize Me is based out of Australia. And they offer some versions of the

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chips. And there's DigiWill over in the EU. And as well, Grindhouse Wetware has a line of very

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interesting chips. And there's DigiWill over in the EU. And as well, Grindhouse Wetware has a line of very

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interesting products that we can't wait to see come out, like the North Star and Cicadia. So now

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you're probably wondering, what can I do with this? And I believe Cursor is going to help us.

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Yeah, so if you decide to go down this crazy path that we have, there's a few things you can do.

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Just to let you know, the top, the XEM is the RFID one, and the XNT is NFC. Ask any questions you

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need after that. But it's a quick key. So the first one, most popular, is NDEF records. So the

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things that can work with your phone, your Android device, you can scan your phone, your chip.

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And it will do things like Bluetooth settings, contact details. It can even set up Wi-Fi

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configuration. Then you have phone entry and key chain access. So if you're on an Android, then

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that's great, because it has a built-in feature for NFC unlocking. There are third-party apps as

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well. And if you're on iPhone, all is not lost, because iOS 11 was announced to have a core NFC

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library. So we'll see what happens with that. Bitcoin wallets. This is something that's been done.

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Someone made a Bitcoin transaction using an implant. The implementation was kind of trivial and

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not very secure, but it opens up the discussion to what we can do in the future. You've got travel

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cards. So I know recently across the news there's been different things talking about implants and

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travel cards. Unfortunately, we're kind of strongly confined by the technology that they choose to

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use, as opposed to what we can get a hold of. Door access and computer access is probably the most

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used one for RFID.

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And this is things like, if you've seen like a prox card or, you know, like typical work cards you

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have on your key chain, this can be used for RFID. The access is done by a unique identifier, which

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every RFID device has. So it's not too secure, and there's no cryptographic functioning within the

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tags. But you can configure an NFC device to sort of hide data in whatever custom way you want to do

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it. So you're probably wondering what's coming next. With the basis of this technology, one of the

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things that's still under beta right now is called a VivoKey. It's a Java platform that is a PCB that's

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biosafed with a plastic-ish coating. Not to give away any trade secrets put out by dangerous things.

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It's still going through beta, but there's going to be a lot of interesting apps that are going to be

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coming out in applications from that.

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So the tags that you'll be seeing today are the glass capture ones. There is a different form factor

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one, which is like a flat, just like the VivoKey will be. And another version of that is a DES

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FHIR. If you know RFID, you'll know DES FHIR is a type of RFID that NXP put out. It supports

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triple DES encryption and AES. And the VivoKey itself, as Cooper said, is a J-COP and global

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platform compatible card.

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So what does this mean? This means a lot more can happen. So again, door access control, but this

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time you can have fully cryptographic algorithms, especially for high frequency. You can also

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emulate cards, so like the MyFair Classic from NXP can also be emulated with the VivoKey. And

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low frequency, of course, say the same, because most businesses won't think that they need to pay

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any money to get more security, as we know.

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Wallets, so using the J-COP and global platform, you can have lots of different wallets. At the

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moment, it runs on Fidismo platform, which you guys can, it's out of Sweden, I think it is. You

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can grab one of the cards from them and start playing around if you want to develop some

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solutions before this is released. They already have things like ledger unplugged, Sunfleet car

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and the VivoKey OTP app. Payments, sorry, travel and identity cards. Again, because we're not

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confined so much, there's a lot of adoption with DES FHIR EV1 cards. And J-COP, you know, we're

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used pretty much everywhere. Even mobile SIMs and contactless payments use that. Unfortunately,

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we're still confined by organizations and public thinking. It's a hard thing to get people adopted

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to. Obviously, a lot of people are interested, if you see the lines we have for our talks. But

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it's getting over that professional step of, ah, you know, it's something crazy, so. And then

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payments, at the moment, it's not used. And it doesn't really seem, I haven't seen many people

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touch in over this side of the pond, but we use it all the time. It's something that can happen.

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Because the J-COP card is similar to what we have in our payment cards now. So, this hopefully is

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along the horizon. And then the last thing is, sort of, whatever you guys can think of. So, we're

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kind of doing a call for developers, engineers, noobs and hobbyists to build some stuff. You

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know, you guys have the crazy ideas, the awesome ideas. So, put something together and then put it

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on our Dangerous Minds Podcast University page, which you can find at DangerousMinds.io. We just

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want to get as many people to submit as many cool things that everyone wants to hear. So, we're

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working like a community building project thing. Now, with this basis of information, you might

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be asking how I can know more. Easy book to pick up, which is out of print, but you can still

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easily find on Amazon, is RFID Toys by Amel, as well as, of course, Dangerous Minds Podcast,

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where we will seek out the experts and find out what got them into it and also what projects

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they're working on and if they are actively seeking any help. As well as, you just mentioned,

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you know, the Dangerous Minds University, which is our attempt at putting it out there to where

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people, if they have projects, they want to share to be able to post it and get it out there to

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the community. But we just want to say thank you for listening. And, of course, our tag line often

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enough is Seek The Spark. But if you have any questions, we're happy to answer them. So, we'll be

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If you find it, please share it.

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And if you want to be augmented, feel free to come back here at 7 p.m. tonight.

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And we do have other devices as well available,

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like a diagnostic card that's put out by Danger Sinks,

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as well as USB RFID readers to help you with your own exploring of the technology.

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So anyway, thanks for being here.

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Biohack the planet.

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And if you have any questions, feel free to do so.

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We've got the mic up here if you have a question.

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We just kind of blew through that real quick.

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Thank you so much for speaking to us.

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So, of course, when you find a technology that you like,

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then you start to worry about things that could possibly go wrong.

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And so one of the things I think about is what happens if I ever need to get an MRI done?

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Have you had any experience with undue heating of implants?

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Thank you.

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We've actually talked to, if you listened to our episode with Melanie Segato,

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she mentioned that some of the higher-end MRIs have a chance of damaging the chip,

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but some lower-end ones, not so much.

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I haven't had any MRIs.

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I haven't had any MRIs myself since being implanted.

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I don't know if Cursor has.

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No, but what I would suggest is you go on to Dangerous Things Forum,

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and you can see the tests that Emil has done, things like shocking the thing,

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and also cooking it in a chicken.

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I don't know what that was supposed to prove, but it's just the extent that he's done.

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Also, you know the YouTube videos you've seen lately with the crushing thing?

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A lot of people are worried it's made of glass.

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Is it going to break?

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He's put it inside one of these things.

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One of these compressor things.

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Hydraulic press.

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Yeah, hydraulic press.

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You'll see the amount of testing that goes through it.

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It's not something we've just decided, yeah, yeah, let's just do this,

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and hopefully that'll make you feel a little bit better about that.

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One point to make on the worst thing that can happen.

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I do martial arts.

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I used to be a firefighter.

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After my own investigation of it, I was very hesitant at first about having glass shrapnel in my hand.

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And I've found after, you know, hearing about the chicken butter,

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which is basically implant a chip into a chicken, put it in hydraulic press,

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the chicken did not survive, but it's quite spreadable now.

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The chip itself has survived.

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So it led me to believe that my hand wouldn't survive, but the chip would.

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So I could always pull it out, clean it off, put it back in the stump.

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Any other questions?

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Good afternoon, sir.

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I was wondering, like, what makes this better than wearable tech?

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I look at wearable tech with the smartwatches and the apps that are created for it

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to already kind of do what you guys listed, which was very little.

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You said web URLs and contact details.

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Like, why would someone want to go from the Garmin to, like, a chip?

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So that's a good question, and it's a question you get asked to everyone

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as soon as someone figures out that you've got a chip in your hand.

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Um...

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The one that's probably the best one I've heard, again, is from Emil,

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the guy that, like, develops the chip,

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and that's the fact that in life we have many burdens,

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things like your phone, your keys, and your wallet.

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By having a small procedure that is less, you know, less damaged

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than, say, an earring can do,

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then you're almost getting rid of that one burden.

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If you have things like access systems for your house, et cetera,

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you don't have to worry about your keys.

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People have linked these up to their motorbikes, to their cars.

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And I think the...

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Maybe some of them can be seen as a bit sort of, like, gimmicky,

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maybe like the contact details and stuff,

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but if you're looking to do some networking,

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they're not going to forget that when they scan your hand

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and the details go into their phone.

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Past that, I mean, you know, it's established specifications.

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We're not developing something new.

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We're running on a platform that's used everywhere.

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So the confinements of what you can use it for are your own imagination.

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You know, you see NFC users,

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you can use it every day, everywhere.

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So anything you can kind of think of doing,

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IoT devices, connectivity, things like that,

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you can use it for that.

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Any other questions?

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Feel free to line up if there's multiple people with questions.

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We won't hold it against you.

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I was just curious about, like, airport security lines

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and other security lines.

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You know, has it set those off?

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And do you have a plausible explanation for those kinds of people?

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I'm sure Cursor has had recent experience.

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I actually found out on a trip to Portland myself,

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going through full body scan as well as WANs,

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unless you show it to them, they don't know it's there.

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And when you show it to them, they're like,

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what the hell? What is that for?

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I was like, well, it's my front door key.

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What's yours do? And he's like...

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Obviously, to get here, it was a bit of a long flight.

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So the thing that I think maybe takes some realization

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is actually the amount of metal that's in these chips

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is less than, say, the fly on your jeans.

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So that doesn't go off when you go through.

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It won't go off when you go through.

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And again, on the way here, I had to go through one of those, like,

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rotating thingamajiggies.

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I didn't even get asked what it was,

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whether we need some help in London with our security or not.

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That's a different question.

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But I'm pretty sure it should be fine.

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Out of all the people that we know that have them,

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there's a massive community.

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It's not just us in the room.

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I've never heard of any stories where someone's had been stopped

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or, apart from the inquisitive, hey, look what this does,

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which I wouldn't advise anyway,

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especially with you guys and your TSA people.

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So I'm just curious,

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what does the upgrade process look like as new?

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So implanting it is one thing,

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but extracting it, putting a new device in,

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how does that work?

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Well, if you want to get rid of it

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and then upgrade to a different device,

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it's just a small incision,

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and then pressing on the bottom will make it pop up.

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Then you can use some forceps to pull it away

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with the encapsulated tissue.

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It's really quick and easy, less than like five minutes.

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As long as it's, you know, normal in the triangle on the hand.

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If you put it on the back of the hand,

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it's a little bit more interesting at that point.

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Got it.

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I think all the words that Cooper tried to use

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made me feel a bit ill as well.

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Things like pulling and pushing.

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It's not actually as bad a procedure as you think,

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because it's going into like the webbing of the skin.

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It's not like an operation.

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Don't think of it as that.

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It's more like, you know, you could cut your hand,

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and it's easier actually to take out than it is to put in.

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And to put it in, and you saw the process,

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takes seconds.

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Thank you.

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I was just wondering in terms of,

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let's say you have like scar tissue

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on the back of your hand.

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Is that complicated?

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Or is it, you know, just, you know, no problem?

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It's like any other piercing.

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It might be an interesting feel for whoever is applying it.

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And, you know, just like any cyst,

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what have you, in the body,

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it doesn't complicate it.

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It's just going to feel like a speed bump almost,

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to be honest,

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because I've definitely got a lot of scar tissue on me.

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Anyone else?

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Cool.

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I just want to say,

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the last time Cooper went to a con,

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we managed to break the provider

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that we have for our podcast.

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We've since upgraded with that provider,

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and I'd like it if we could break it again,

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so we can go back to them and hopefully get some free stuff

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for the next year.

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Yeah, it was kind of interesting then,

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and we were just trying to break 20,000 downloads

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early this year,

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like back in January.

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I can definitely tell you that this provider,

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according to their own stats,

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this weekend we broke 40,000.

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It's kind of crazy considering that

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it got started after DEF CON last year,

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but I'm guessing we put out some decent content.

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And those of you that are listeners,

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thank you so much for everything you do.

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Those of you that aren't,

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please like us, subscribe,

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and if you don't like what we do,

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please tell us why.

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If you do like what we do,

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please tell us why.

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We like feedback.

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As you can tell,

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both of us will talk to you

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if you have questions further.

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And feel free to come back and get some holes

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and fun little devices in them.

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Thanks, guys.

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If anyone has any questions regarding the implants,

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the implant procedure,

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if you're worried about it, et cetera,

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don't feel like you have to be a tough guy.

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Come and speak to us.

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We've done it several times.

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And also, if you have any questions

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in terms of what it can do,

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what you think it can't do,

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or any ideas,

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just come and approach us.