Thank y'all. Don't know how many of y'all are subscribing, but those of you that have subscribed, you helped us break 40,000 downloads this past weekend.
That's a lot considering we started recording last September.
And because of that, I hope all of y'all come to the lightning talks at 7 o'clock tonight.
It's also when we're going to be creating new baby cyborgs, so I hope you come out and see them come out of their shell and maybe become a caterpillar or a fly, I don't know.
Totally up to them.
But as a special gift for coming, which will come in handy tonight at the lightning talks, there's glow-in-the-dark and black light sensitive bracelets right in front of the schwag for donations in the back.
So please feel free to pick one of those up as you donate to Biohack Village and get a badge or a shirt or whatever.
If you don't feel the need to donate, take a bracelet anyway.
And we hope to see y'all tonight because there will be.
There will definitely be some special libations.
But I want to thank y'all for coming here and thank our guests for helping and guest hosts.
I am Cooper.
I am the ringleader, the cat herder, the crazy guy that wanted to do this and found people willing to do it with me.
God help them for coming along the way.
We also have Cursor.
All the way from London, England.
And we're very thankful to have him with us.
We have Nick Stuff all the way from Minnesota.
He brought his pop with him and all that.
And, of course, Static Nerd, a fellow Texan.
Got to have Texans.
Can't have just one.
There's always need to have a bunch.
And, yeah, we also have Saw.
Definitely want to say, as we always have to do,
we've got to thank the people that helped bring us here, especially Biohacking Village.
Y'all are lovely, lovely people.
And we love all of you.
But also Danger Sings.
They have helped us since the beginning and have wanted to keep good ties with us.
Axiom VPN for protecting our connection today to make things possible and not owned.
Pro Phase Bio Studios for providing space and access.
As well as Specialist.
Special treat for tonight.
Yes, I'm saying it again.
Come at 7 for lightning talks and the implantation party as well as special things to happen.
You'll have to be here to know what it is.
But anyway, we also have a couple guests.
We have Rich Lee, who is a self-described black hat biohacker and grinder.
I think he's more gray or white hat most of the time, myself.
And what?
It looks like we also have a nice typo.
It's supposed to be Melanie, not Annie.
I'm sorry.
Needless to say, I need more caffeine in my blood.
I'm not a very good biohacker.
I'm sorry.
But she's a PhD candidate and a grinder as well.
Anyway, we want to thank you to our first live recording of Dangerous Minds where we delve
into the minds of biohackers and grinders, take a closer look
at this tech being implanted and developed by this community.
So we have.
We also have a Patreon page at patreon.com forward slash dangerous minds.
If you like what we do in the community and like what we do on the podcast.
So please feel free to support us there.
So we want this episode to be slightly different, different to previous episodes.
So if you have any questions or you want to contribute to the conversation, do feel like you can.
It's like an open thing.
If you just put your hand up or come to the mic, we'll see if we can chuck you in as soon as we have the time to do that.
We'll start with everyone introducing themselves.
We'd like to start with Rich Lee.
Hey, my name is Rich Lee.
I started biohacking maybe 2008.
Got really big into the grinder scene and maybe 2011.
I did a bunch of projects like headphone implants and more recently been working on something called the Laptron 9000.
Is it IOT connected?
Yeah.
You know what?
That's.
After the last talk.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
If it isn't, is there a module I can add on?
Yeah.
Those are discussions we could have like off the podcast because it's a development.
How about that?
Cool.
I'm Melanie.
I'm doing a PhD in cognitive neuroscience.
I'm a co-founder of a group called Neurotech X, which is an international neurotechnology community.
I make brain stimulators in my spare time.
Sometimes I use them.
I'm Cursor from London, if you can't tell.
It's not Australian, I promise you.
Yeah, so I'm just a software engineer, but grinder as well.
And yeah, that's me.
I'm Ryan McEvoy.
I'm half of these two cyborgs in a pod.
Excuse me, two cyborgs in a microphone podcast.
I've been grinding for a few years.
I've got everything from magnets, RFIDs, and the glow in the dark.
And I also run a blog, 24hourengineer.com.
I've got cards, or you can just scan my hand after the show.
And hi there.
I'm Sadiq Nerd.
I help out with B-Sides Las Vegas with AV, coordinate B-Sides SATX back in San Antonio.
I run the Security Endeavors podcast, which is a passion thing, so they're only like five episodes.
I promise the site's not dead.
But also, this wouldn't be right.
Excuse me, I do have to take just half a second for some additional business.
So, to my knowledge, this is the first time all of us have presented at DEF CON, right?
So, what's the custom if it's the first time you're presenting at DEF CON?
Anybody?
Can you hold this, please?
I was going to say, I've done it a few times already.
I feel it.
Last year, I didn't know this was a tradition.
And this is when we say, this one's for all of you.
Because we wouldn't be up here if it wasn't for everyone sitting here and everyone at home
playing the home game of Dangerous Minds podcast.
Rights pending.
Now I feel like, now I feel more ready.
Thank you.
And thank you very much for allowing me that moment.
But thank you so much for allowing us to come into your brain stems and, Coop, please.
Or actually, whose turn is it?
There you go.
It's Mr. Green in the library with the candlestick.
Sorry, guys, going for weight.
Alcohol is important.
Cheers.
Oh, so English.
Can't do anything without liquor.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Cheers.
What was that?
That was supposed to be tea.
What are you doing to me?
Wait, should I go in here?
No naked flames.
There we go.
He wants to have a cigarette afterwards.
I'm going to be a flamethrower.
So, yeah, let's dive right into this.
So we've done a number of podcasts now.
And something we find is that the definition of biohacking is a bit ambiguous.
There we go.
So, so what?
What?
So what I've come up with after several episodes of doing it is what I think biohacking is.
And I'll give you that and then we'll pass on to these guys to try and define what this crazy community is.
Plus we want to know what you think.
Yeah.
So, yeah, do let us know as well.
We're going to run like a small, like, segment on a podcast.
So if you guys do have some time, reach out to us and we'll get your small snippets of what you think it is because it's different to everyone.
So this is my definition.
So the world is kind of focused on creating machines with, like, a concept.
It's a conscious thought.
And countless years of development have followed to try and create, like, a true cognitive machine, like a union between biology and consciousness.
But for me, I think it's the fact that the approach is kind of wrong.
So instead of taking something, so you basically, you reverse the roles.
So you take a human cognitive being and you put the impulsive technology in.
And what you get is a product of a new race.
It's a union between humankind.
That propels all of us.
And so it's the difference between, say, you know, the films you see in the Hollywood films of, you know, let's make a machine think like a human and instead reverse that and make the human adapt to the technology.
But I'm going to put this out to you guys first to see how you feel about what biohacking is and what it means to you.
I get asked this question a lot.
And each time I give a different answer.
And I think that my idea of what biohacking is is basically a really evolving thing.
I have found, though, that as time goes on, my definition gets more and more ambiguous.
When I started off, I was like, yeah, biohacking is basically saying, fuck you to life.
I'm going to, you know, modify it as I want and kind of a thing.
But then, you know, it's not necessarily always, like, self-focused, right?
You've got people who are looking, like, outside.
You've got people who are looking outside of the human body and into nature and things like that.
And so it's got to include all those other things as well.
So I found basically, like, the definitions that are used on, like, say, what's the DIY bio, right?
Or something like engaging in biology, you know, with the hacker ethic.
I really like that, you know.
I mean, it does involve the hacker ethic.
It is ambiguous enough to, like, include everybody in it.
But, I mean, you know, it doesn't, like, narrow down to, like, a specific thing.
Anyway, it's a big, broad umbrella with many different disciplines under it, right?
But I guess at the end of the day, like, since I give a new definition every time I am asked,
I'll just give a new definition today.
And basically, it's changing the course of life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I do think that biohacking is a very, very catch-all term that kind of gets taken out of context sometimes.
A lot of people have a very edgy association with the term biohacking.
Whereas for me, like, going to your kitchen and making really cool recipes still counts as biohacking.
It's just taking stuff and playing around with it in ways that you didn't do it before in the context of biology
is sort of what biohacking is in my mind.
If you have a question, please feel free to move to the microphone or a comment to your own answer to the question.
I have a comment.
I work in pediatrics, and I work with a lot of kids that have congenital heart disease.
So they need pacemakers and things like that.
So why would a biohacker want to mess around with a kid's pacemaker and ruin their rhythm?
That's kind of my question.
Like, yeah.
It gives the power of being a biohacker and, like, pacing the child's heart.
Like, a pacemaker is there to pace your heart.
And, like, when you literally see a child that was born like this with a congenital heart disease,
why would you want to screw them up?
Well, I can attest as somebody that knows, someone that is researching into medical device security,
especially IoT-connected medical devices, he is not doing it with a malicious intent.
Much like most hackers, they're...
They're there to see what is there and report the faults so people can fix it.
Right.
So that people don't die, especially in, you know, stuff like that.
I get that, but I feel like people have a sense of gratification when they can control someone's heart.
Well...
And that sucks.
Especially when a child...
That's a different matter.
That's a sick person.
That...
You should not label them simply as a biohacker.
I would consider that person to be a criminal.
Exactly.
That is all about consent.
What I'd also say is if you consider before the pacemaker, the pacemaker could be considered a biohacker itself.
You're implanting what is not part of biology.
It's a piece of technology.
And you're making that union between the biology and the technology.
So that in itself, you could say, is the product of the good biohackers, right?
So, of course, in every group, you're going to have a small, you know, amount of people that you're going to have to worry about.
I mean, we're at...
Like a hack and con, I'm sure all of you are not going to be taking people's bank details down the street.
Right.
But there might be some people that would do that, right?
So then we go into discussion of where does the responsibility lie with ethics?
And this is something that we'll come on to a little bit later.
And hopefully we'll be able to answer your question when that comes up.
Yeah.
It definitely is not having the technology, but we do have a lot of cardiologists that worry about the moralistic part.
Yeah, I mean...
About someone messing out.
With a child's heart.
We all have a responsibility for that because we're all contributing to the field.
Exactly.
It doesn't end with just children.
It doesn't end with children.
It's anybody that has that device.
But if you're a child and you were born with a congenital heart disease that you cannot control who you were born with,
as opposed to being a 40-year-old smoker for your whole life, and now you have clogged arteries,
and now you have to get a pacemaker that...
That's really broad labels.
Yeah, it is.
To say that an adult is any different as far as value of life from a child.
Any life is valued.
Any life.
I 100% agree with you.
My life is not better than yours.
Nothing.
I'm just saying anybody's life is valued.
I understand your opinion and your question you're giving, but the thing is you're talking about criminals.
You're not talking about biohackers, grinders, what have you, or ethical researchers.
You're talking about criminals.
I'm talking about...
Just the same as anyone that is using...
Can I just step in for a sec after?
Yeah, I'm talking about congenitalness.
Like, congenital.
They have no control over it.
They connect.
Yeah, so I think what all of our goals...
One of our goals would be in the biohacking community is that when they grow up, they do have control over their own heart instead of a company having control over their own heart.
Exactly.
Yeah, so I think that is the side that the biohackers are approaching this as opposed to criminals, as Cooper said.
Yeah, that we don't do that.
Ideally, the people that do would go to jail.
We would hope so.
I mean, we would hope so, right?
Thanks very much.
Appreciate that.
Bye.
So that kind of brings me to my definition of what I consider biohacking and what it means to me.
For me, it's making things.
I want to expand my sensory perception through technological devices with things like finger magnets and that sort of thing.
So to me, it's about making, not breaking.
And to the point that's already been brought up, there are so many different avenues and parts to consider when dealing with what is biohacking.
What is...
Where is the line between...
The man-machine question, automating things versus making life better.
It's about equality of life.
It's about exploring boundaries and pushing them, right?
And everybody has their own view on it.
And that's part of what makes it so personal, I think.
It's really driven by the individual.
Thank you.
So let's start or continue with what got everyone into the grinding scene and what did you do in it?
Yeah, so I don't know.
My story is really long.
Basically, my grandmother died and I had one of these like life things where I was like, oh, you know, like, you know, I'm kind of like planning on, you know, basically corporations to come along and like produce these life extension therapies for me so I could live to be forever.
You know, someday I want a jet pack and a flying car and I'm just waiting for all this shit to happen, but it never fucking happens, right?
And like at some point, you just get the realization that like...
I'm sorry, there's like not a lot of companies going into cybernetic implants, right?
Just because like the liability, the limit of the market, you know, there's not a lot of people who are making flying cars right now.
I know there are some people that are trying, but I mean, come on, there's like going to be some like failures there and stuff like that.
Anyway, I just decided that if I wanted any of this shit, I just have to get into it and like just start in it.
And so before that, I was doing like a business shit, you know, like real estate.
Stuff that I like fucking hate now, but this is honestly like the only fulfilling thing to me now, you know, is the biohacking scene.
And before, I just had this stupid notion that someday if I just saved up a lot of money, it was just going to happen, right?
I'd just be able to go into the mall and get this stuff.
And I just decided after a while, it's bullshit, you know?
So that's basically how I got into it.
And I've been doing some, I don't know, implants and doing a lot of...
Trial and error kind of stuff ever since, so.
Yeah, I just got super lucky in terms of things that lined up where in my undergrad, I was taking this neuroethics course and we had a prof that was doing brain computer interfaces and came in and gave a really interesting lecture.
I was like, okay, I'll write my final paper on this.
And around the time where that happened, I started going to the hackerspace in Montreal and someone had found one of those brain computer interface toys in the garbage and was like, I don't know, you do brain stuff to hack.
This thing.
And so I just kind of got into it from there.
And then from brain computer interfaces, I got into brain stimulation and, again, just had a lot of support from my community being like, man, sure, I don't know, here's a battery.
Do some things with resistors and figure out how to zappy zappy.
So, yeah, that's kind of how I got into it.
I love your technical terms.
Zappy zappy, yeah.
I wish I had a good story to tell you.
How many of you guys have been on YouTube for, like, way too long?
Like, you said, you've been on YouTube for a long time.
You start on a video you want to watch and you end up, like, three hours later watching a video of a cat do something crazy.
It was kind of like that, but I actually ended on the video of an RFID implant and a TED talk by Emil.
And then I'm here.
So, basically, the thing I want to say at this point is we're sitting up here, but we're no different to the people, you know, next to you.
Like, all it is is we decided to take a plunge into the community.
And it's the nicest place you can be.
The people that make this community good.
It's the best thing about it.
Too much alcohol on this side.
But the point is, is you don't need a queue for this.
If you decide that, you know, you've been here, you've listened to some talks, go home, do some stuff, hit anyone up.
Everyone is happy to speak to you.
There's nothing that you need to be like.
You don't need to see a light in the distance to realize that you want to be a biohacker.
What got me into it was the idea of expanding my senses that I mentioned before.
I'm an electrical engineer for my pain job.
And for an example, shortly after I got my finger implant and I was able to sense magnetic fields, I said, hey, Brian, come over.
We need you to troubleshoot this panel.
This is usually about a 30-minute process involving jabbing a meter into a 230-volt panel for a while.
I waved my hand over it.
Within 30 seconds, I was able to diagnose it, flip the correct circuit breaker, and I went on my way.
So my involvement in the community, there was, at the time, no good grinder podcast.
So I started one.
My story is not anywhere near as exciting as all of theirs.
Basically, it was I know Coop from a local San Antonio hacker meetup, and we had a conversation about getting something started.
And we've worked together for a while now, and so he invited me and kindly allowed me to guest.
I host on the podcast a couple of times, so thanks very much for allowing me that, Coop.
And hopefully you'll keep continuing.
And people are wondering how in the world did I get involved in this.
I went to the first Body Hacks Con in Austin, Texas, because the founder of it was a buddy of mine from Austin Hackers Association.
And I was like, okay, what is biohacking?
Where's the shell?
Is there some sort of exploit?
Do I do a SQL injection?
How do I get there?
How do I get chromosomes?
What in the world is this?
So I went with the expectation of checking it out, because, well, I'm naturally curious.
And then I met Emil, and he was like, hey, do you want to get chipped?
And I was like, well, do you have potato?
What do you got?
Corn?
I'm not really a chip kind of guy.
And then he showed me the needle, and I was like, heck no.
Are you kidding?
Tattoos and piercings are a lot less gigantic and shiny.
How big is that?
Can you get away?
Shiny.
And then, yes, shiny.
The next day, or later that day, I was like, okay, tell me more about it.
I Googled a little bit.
I have questions, because I used to be a firefighter.
I'm into martial arts.
Am I going to have shrapnel in my hand?
And we talked about it, and he talked about the chicken butter incident, where they injected a chip into a chicken and put it in a hydraulic press.
The chip survived.
The chicken didn't.
And we're still mourning the chicken, except it's spreadable.
Needless to say, it made me think, okay, well, that's good.
If my hand doesn't survive, then I can always put the chip in another part of my body, I guess.
Or just put it back in the stump and still have the functionality.
Does that count as juicing?
Hopefully not.
I'm not going to be drinking people juice.
But anyway, I went back, and I got two chips.
And then, yeah.
I started playing with them from then on.
And no, they weren't potato olés.
So to keep it moving, really briefly, can you tell us about the biohacking arenas that you work in, and any implants or research you've conducted?
Okay, so I've done like a million experiments and different projects, and I'd say 99% of them have been failures.
So I've done a lot of different things.
Things like controlling body temperature, that was a failure.
I almost died, electrocuted myself in the bathtub on that one.
That was a close call.
Yeah, it's a long story, but I had a bathtub full of ice, and yeah.
That would have been just a weird thing for a paramedic to walk into, you know?
Let's see.
So I had the shin implant thing that went south on me.
It was basically this non-Newtonian foam, like in a rod, like foot-long rod that I had.
I put it into my shins.
It was kind of like a shin armor.
So basically it was flexible until you struck it, and then it became like rock hard.
And I thought, that's awesome.
I will never smack my shins on my coffee table again.
And anyway, but I ended up having to pull those.
So there's been a lot of failures, and I feel like at every failure I get like this, well, obviously new knowledge,
or just come back at it at a different angle, things like that.
I've done experiments.
I've done experiments into echolocation, and that's another one that I need to revisit as soon as I finish the Lovetron 9000,
which is a vibrating pelvic implant for men.
It basically turns them into human vibrators for their partners.
Is it available for females as well?
I've been asked that a lot, and Jezebel actually ran kind of a prank article based on a design that I had proposed, right?
Like on the spot.
It was, you know, like, okay, I guess if I was going to do that, I would do this.
And I thought, you know, I'm going to get crucified for this because, like, it's a dude talking about a vagina, you know,
and, like, how to make a device for that, and just off the top of his head.
And anyway, so they pitched it, like, as coming from a German company for, like, an April Fool's thing, right?
And the responses in the comments were, like, great.
They were, like, sign me up.
Like, women were saying, hell yeah.
Like.
I'll get this, like, tomorrow.
Yeah.
Sweet.
Okay.
But so anyway, I don't know.
I haven't got into that part of it yet.
I'm still trying to, like, just accomplish, like, one thing and then move on.
I have a tendency just to get distracted, you know, by, you know, like, hit a wall and be like, okay, I don't know how to solve this problem.
Maybe I'll solve it later and then just go on to a new project.
So anyway, I kind of try to lately, like, make myself just finish one project at a time.
So it's not as exciting.
It's still, like, waiting for people to do their part and things like that is kind of frustrating.
But anyway, so I'm trying to stay focused.
You are so much more badass than I am.
God.
I'm actually a huge wuss when it comes to actually biohacking my own body.
Even for brain stimulation stuff, I do research on neuroscience.
I know that the consequences of doing it are pretty much limited.
It's like, eh, you might burn yourself a little or give yourself a headache if you really, really screw it up.
And even then, I'll try it.
And for the next half hour, I'll just be, like, looking in the mirror, checking to make sure my pupils are equally dilated.
I really am much more involved at the level of talking to people and opening discussions and teaching them how to do cool stuff if they have less paranoia than I do.
Yeah, that's ‑‑ I've forgotten a little bit what the question is, but I think I'm just going to hand you the mic.
So the next question we have on our rundown is, what would you tell someone that is thinking about getting started in biohacking?
Just do it.
That's my comment.
But research first.
Talk to people.
There's a great community.
I have not seen such an inclusive community since longboarding.
Skateboarding has the opposite effect.
You get into skateboarding.
And if you don't know the names of all the tricks, which are weird names, you're not cool.
But in longboarding, people just want to get together and hang out and cruise.
And biohacking was the same way.
You show up at a place like this, and I'm scheduled to volunteer certain hours today, and I find myself here anyway, talking to people, just talking to people in the line.
And I love it.
And I love telling people my own experiences and telling them what they can hope to achieve.
I was just surprised that, you know, I was wondering if there were really ‑‑
You can do long needles in longboarding, too.
Never mind.
Don't answer that.
Never mind.
Moving on.
Moving on.
Down to the end of the line.
Wow.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Do you have a question?
Yeah.
So I'm concerned that in the future commercially available bioimplants may have security and privacy concerns.
What can the biohacking community do to help ensure that in the future it's safe for humans?
Yeah.
Well, we have this in our rundown, actually.
The legislation.
Cool.
Of biohacking.
Bear with me for two seconds.
And if we don't answer it, jump back up.
I'll definitely do that for you.
Please hold us accountable.
Can I just ask people in the room who considers themselves a biohacker now?
Show of hands.
Okay.
So those people that didn't put their hand up, you should consider why.
Because every day you're doing things like if you have a Fitbit, et cetera, et cetera, you could be considered in the spectrum of biohacking.
So what I'd say is for the people to get into biohacking, you're already there.
You just don't know it.
Right?
So it's how far down the rabbit hole you'd like to go in comparison to, oh, well, what do I need to do?
You don't need to have an implant to be a biohacker.
We've got several people in the room that wouldn't have an implant and that contribute much more than what I do or what other people do to the whole sphere of knowledge.
So for those people that didn't put their hand up, hopefully by the time you finish today or by the time of DEF CON, you consider yourself as part of the group.
I forgot what the question is again.
I'm so sorry.
We should help you with this.
Oh, starting biohacking.
What advice do you have for BIMB biohackers?
I would say to be enthusiastic, but don't get disappointed when you realize that science is really complicated.
Stick with it because as you go adjusting your expectations for it, you get really excited about science.
It's really simple things, and that's super great.
Maybe you're going into it with more information than I was when I started, but I started out being like, oh, man, I'm going to read sentences directly from the brain.
That didn't happen.
That's potentially never going to happen in that form.
But now I'm like, oh, man, I can tell when I blink.
Awesome.
Yeah, it's just don't forget how cool what you're doing is, even if it's just a little thing.
One question.
I interviewed a neuroscience researcher, and he found that transcranial direct current stimulation was useful for depression most of the time, but he found some cases where it didn't work.
It was just the opposite.
And ultimately, and he was smart enough to look through the data, it was the people who were left-handed, and the fix was as simple as reversing the electrodes.
So my question for you guys is how variable are people in terms of responses to technologies like this?
Like that.
Everybody's a unique snowflake.
I tried TDCS, and it didn't do anything for me as a stroke survivor.
Right.
Actually, I used TDCS to help me kind of fall asleep.
Like at night, my thoughts would just be racing, you know.
And so in the past, I have used it to like, it could be placebo.
I don't know.
But there's a lot of data there that, you know, shows it's completely legit.
So I didn't spend too much time on it.
But, you know, as far as.
You know, how individualized, like, the whole thing is.
I mean, biology is way individualized, right?
I mean, there's some people that can have some kinds of metal in their body and it doesn't reject.
There's some people that, you know, that's going to mess them up.
Some people are allergic to different things.
So, yeah, basically, if you want a cyborg future, you've got to go at it.
Or just like a mutant future, right?
With, like, genetic alterations.
You need to basically go.
Go at it from, like, an individualized perspective.
And, you know, find what's going to be good for you.
I think that one of the reasons that this isn't just going to happen, like, as, like, a one-size-fits-all, here's a product, you know, buy it and go use it thing, is because of that.
Like, you know, what you're saying.
It's because it is individualized.
So, which is going to mean, if that's something you want, you've got to get involved.
Yeah, for TDCS specifically.
Everybody's brain is a little bit different.
Things like your handedness can change things in unexpected ways.
Everybody's skull thickness is different.
The distribution of skull thickness is different.
And all of those affect the current flow through the brain.
Things like how much exercise you were doing before TDCS, how much caffeine you've had, how much caffeine you routinely have compared to the day where you tried it, all affect the outcome.
So, that's one of the nice things about biohacking is that if you do want to see a particular effect, you can play around with it on your own body.
And, of course, it's not going to be the kind of thing you can really publish in a medical journal because there's placebo wrapped into there, there's your own personal biases wrapped into there, but if you find something that works for you, then, I mean, that's great, right?
Yeah, if you have a question.
Kind of on that same topic, you only have one, I mean, you can only experiment on yourself.
You don't exactly have a control group.
So, what can you do to apply some more scientific rigor to what you're doing with your biohacking experiments?
So, back in, some years ago at the university in San Antonio, I worked for a professor who was actually researching the way that current flows through the brain using doped rat slices and then also reptilian brain slices as well.
And so, it was basically using that technology to try to trace and provide that information.
So, there is work being done that allows for scientific rigor among other ways.
So, it's not necessarily exactly the same, but it provides clues, to say the least.
Cool.
I'm conscious of time, and there's two things that I really want to get out to you guys before we finish.
One is legislation, and one is biohacking in the mainstream.
So, hopefully, it's okay if we can just go for those, Coops.
Cool.
Cool.
So, in terms of legislation, the gentleman raised it earlier, I kind of find it ironic that we live in a modern day of technology.
And we celebrate freedom of expression and diversity.
And in the same breath, it seems like we create legislation that isolates a lot and alienates groups like biohacking, especially.
And this is a new section of the world, right?
So, we've got questions that are not answered yet.
And I think now would be the first time to sort of think about it individually and as a group, especially with the panel that we have, to see what challenges we face as a community.
What we can do to protect our own interests and the interests of human beings.
And also to ask the question of, does the right to augment exist?
Okay, so the question is like, okay, so the right, I feel that the right to augment is like an absolute human right.
Okay?
You're born with whatever meat you are born with.
And to say that you can't modify yourself.
You can't buy your own meat or ingest whatever chemicals or whatever, right?
Or, you know, not bear a child or whatever.
Okay?
I think it's your body.
You should be able to do whatever you want with it.
Like as far as like the regulatory side, was that the first part of the question?
This shot is hitting me hard.
So, after last night, I know.
Anyway.
Yeah, so as far as the legislation goes.
It's basically legislation.
The reason for biohacking, in my, this is my personal opinion, is ultimately it's bullshit.
Because if you have like a black hat biohacker, right, and earlier I was described as a black hat biohacker.
I'm not.
I've sometimes described myself as a black hat transhumanist, which is a little bit different.
Anyway, but a black hat biohacker, right, who is making bioweapons or is a bioterrorist, right, are they going to be stopped by any kind of like oversight or like a legislation or anything like that?
Absolutely not, right?
So.
Basically, I think that like it's a futile kind of thing.
I think that if anything, we've seen that the FDA has like slowed us the fuck down.
We're coming into an age of exponentially advancing technology, right?
The rate that things are advancing is just like out of control.
By the time you get done with like FDA regulatory bullshit, right, to get a device approved, I mean, your technology is going to be obsolete.
And people have already got other stuff in the pipeline.
And I have a jump on that, because as a dad, I understand very fully your own battles with right to augmentation, and I know you're under some bit of a gag order still left.
Is there any way you can share a little bit with us on that?
Because, you know, I'm lucky in the current situation I'm in as a biohacker not to have to face as much.
But I feel.
A lot and empathize a lot with what you're going through and continuing and just want, if you haven't already heard the special episode, we haven't come back and share more with us on it, but so basically, I have two kids and I had shared custody with my ex with them, like a week on week off kind of a thing.
Anyhow, I did one procedure that was a little bit gritty.
It was on YouTube for like, I don't know, a couple seconds.
Until it got flagged for copyright infringement because like I had some music playing in the distant background and they're like, oh, my God, this is anyway, the bots flagged it like 38 views.
Basically, it was the shin implant procedure that I was getting done.
I had footage of it.
And basically, this was used as justification to remove kids from my custody.
And I've been involved in basically a like a gritty legal battle for about a year now over this.
I mean, you've got people online that are my kids didn't see this procedure, by the way, or the video, but you've got people online that are doing like some really nasty, like cyst, like popping things.
Right.
And like filming them and they people love them.
Right.
It's like, I don't know, there's something satisfying about them.
But I mean, whatever, there's all kinds of stuff like on YouTube or whatever.
I mean, this is just something that was like, not I wouldn't even rate it as like being that extreme either.
But.
Basically, I was in the situation where it's like, you know, you're an unfit parent because you're involved in some form of masochism or self-mutilation or something like that.
And basically, I think in a major city, this would be no problem.
But I live in some backwoods place and I face people that just like they think it's strange, abnormal behavior, and therefore I'm an unfit parent.
But anyway, so that's the situation that.
And where can we go to?
Support you?
What's the website address again?
So I did start a GoFundMe campaign, but I actually and I am and I had a great response from the biohacking community to strangers.
I've never met who looked at this, the transgender community, a lot of people that like I just didn't expect to like sympathize with my plight, I guess, contribute to a GoFundMe campaign.
And I think the GoFundMe campaign was like a forward slash cyborg dad or something like that.
Basically, I do kind of have a gag order on the case itself, but I will be hearing a decision on September 1st.
I don't know how it's going to turn out.
It's been, you know, nearly a year of like legal battles, thousands and thousands of dollars spent and just lots of bullshit.
But hopefully people in the future don't think that I'm a gay.
I don't face as much of this, you know, as this kind of thing like starts to mainstream.
That's what I'm hoping for everyone else.
But if anyone in the audience like ever, if this ever happens to anyone, just, I don't know, contact me.
It's a rough, rough process.
But anyway, yeah.
Question for Brian.
As an electrical engineer with finger magnets.
Do you have much of a risk that when a circuit powers on, your finger could be pulled into a live coil or something?
In my field, no.
I've never had to worry about that.
I've never actually had any problems with it.
I did have one finger magnet that had to be removed because the coating was corrupted.
But professionally, I've had zero problems with it.
I also have RFID and NFC tags.
Again, no problems.
No problems with MRIs.
I've never had an MRI.
No problems with airport security.
Anything like that.
So, now the next question is one that we go to a lot.
Just like dealing with being a parent.
Just dealing with muggles, as you might say.
Everybody else that doesn't know anything about the scene hasn't been educated in that realm.
How do we get biohacking more mainstream, more accepted?
So that we don't have to fight for our kids.
So we don't have to fight for our augmentation.
Because should it be as simple as ear piercing?
We maybe shouldn't call them muggles.
Sorry.
It's just the easiest term.
I know.
I'm just teasing.
I very genuinely think that information is the way to go.
Making it really easy for people to access the information they need to understand what's going on in the biohack.
The biohacking community, try it out if they want to.
Not try it out if they don't want to.
But at the very least, not be scared of it as like this edgy, dark thing that people are doing in alleyways with self-mutilation.
I think the more information we get out there about it not being that and for people seeing how accessible it is,
the less of a barrier there's going to be between the biohacking and non-biohacking community.
Does anyone else want to add to that?
So there's two things I have to say about biohacking.
One is it's a community where people are willing to communicate and they want to talk to people.
And the opposite side of that is there is so much fear mongering.
Every time I open my mouth about having an RFID, I run the risk and it happens often that people go,
oh my gosh, number of the beast.
Oh, you're the devil.
This is revelations and you're bringing about the end times.
I'm not.
I would like to lay claim that I'm the world's only squeamish Catholic grinder.
I've been to church with implants in my hand.
They've put Eucharist directly in my palm.
Nothing burst into flames.
The building didn't collapse.
Everyone was safe.
So you weren't losing lipo at the time?
So were you thinking of constant fully transforming into the body and host?
Transplantation.
This is not fair.
Sorry, I went to seminary.
Wrong speech.
Yeah, nor not the devil.
If you didn't notice.
Sorry about the horns.
So my answer for biohacking in the mainstream is not one that's going to win me any fans here.
Likely I'll probably be kicked out after the talk.
But I actually went on a rant on one of our episodes about biohacking in the mainstream.
And I said that the problem was with the people in biohacking.
So we work in a very close-knit community.
I hope I don't say anything by the way that we only say over in the UK.
Because that's happened to me a few times.
People are like, what the hell?
Speak American.
Yeah, I'm trying.
I keep saying I'm so knackered.
And people are like, I have no idea what you're saying.
That's exhausting.
We need some subtitles or something.
Subtitles for this Englishman.
But basically what I was saying is because we work in such a small environment.
And it's a very, very close environment.
Everyone sort of knows everyone.
Everyone knows what they're contributing to.
Which is great.
This is a major advantage.
But at the same time, it's almost like it can almost be seen as a cult.
It's not a cult.
Don't misquote me.
But almost like for people that are out in the rest of the world.
It's seen as like, oh, these guys meet up and do this thing at DEF CON.
There's a thing they do in a room.
And they're doing all these implants and things like this.
It's because we're not that open.
And we do try to be.
We've got forums.
But you won't go to the forums if you're from the general audience.
And to be honest.
I wish that we were a bit more.
We need to take responsibility.
Everyone in the room and everyone out of the room.
To sort of drive it home to the mainstream.
They're not going to come to us at all.
So we have to go to them, unfortunately.
Just going back to the mainstream concept again.
It was mentioned earlier.
I'm not quite certain who made the statement.
But it has to do with the fact that there are already people who have biomedical devices implanted.
And it's through.
A more established channel.
But is it really that different?
What it boils down to from this person's perspective.
Is that people are people.
And people are very much concerned about the things they're not familiar with.
Or that are different.
And it's not unreasonable to assume that folks are going to be extra cautious.
And it's one thing to go to a medical professional facility.
Or a facility hosting medical professionals.
Who are approved in all sorts of ways.
Versus someone with the equivalent.
Of a Raspberry Pi like device.
That they're doing on the weekends.
You know.
Just for funsies to see what they do.
Folks are going to do what they're going to do.
The challenge comes in being human to one another.
More so perhaps.
But the feeling of oppression may be the same on both sides.
Just a thought.
So I think there are some things working in our favor for mainstream acceptance.
One of them like.
Are most people in the audience Americans?
Probably.
Okay.
All right.
We have a shit health system.
I think it's fair to say.
Where basically if you have a condition.
You can just plan on medical bankruptcy at some point.
Right?
I mean it's just.
If you want help.
It's going to cost you a lot of money.
Like a surgery that cost $4,000.
Like back in 2005.
Is now like $45,000 at least.
Right?
It's just the prices have gone crazy.
So we have people.
That basically are looking to.
I don't want to say save money.
But I mean.
They're desperate.
Right?
They don't want to like.
Sacrifice everything.
They have a strange condition.
They're getting involved in their own health care.
And like.
Researching stuff.
And like.
Actually proposing.
Maybe their own interventions.
Which.
They're not doctors.
But I mean.
Shit.
They're involved.
Okay.
So I get emails all the time.
From people.
Like after I.
After I made these.
Headphone implants.
I get.
I get emails from people.
That say.
I hear voices in my head.
And I think that.
Whatever implant you made.
Has been like.
Put in my head.
And I hear these voices.
And this.
That.
Right?
And.
Normally.
Normally.
My response is like.
Okay.
Oh.
Here's some quacks.
Right?
Like.
You know.
Whatever.
Like.
Sorry bro.
Hope that goes away.
And then I thought about it more.
And I.
And.
And I started replying to them.
I said.
Okay.
Well.
That's.
I got this idea.
Right?
Basically.
If you're hearing voices in your head.
And you're thinking.
They're being broadcast from.
Some station.
You know.
Some military base somewhere.
Right?
That means that.
Something is being broadcast.
A wave is.
Coming from somewhere.
Right?
So basically.
I put them in a situation.
Where I said.
Let's identify these bands.
Of.
Frequency.
And see if we can like.
Block them.
Right?
So go to an underground parking garage.
That'll take out.
These bands.
Right?
So we've eliminated that.
And I put them in a position.
Where.
They start.
All these different tests.
I got like a series of emails.
Where it's like.
You know.
Here's all the different things.
That we're going to go through.
Now they're biohacking.
Now they have a problem.
At the end.
They're just going to have to go to a doctor.
But they've ruled out.
A lot of different things.
And they're going to come to the conclusion.
Themselves.
Technically.
I am.
Practicing medicine.
Without a license.
But.
Fuck it.
So I think.
There's a lot of people.
Who want to get involved.
In their conditions.
And things like that.
And.
We'll become biohackers.
That way.
Cool.
We're.
We're.
We're out of time.
So I just want to.
Wrap up with a.
With a plea.
Kind of thing.
The chance to speak here.
Is an awesome chance for me.
So.
I just want to say.
To everyone here.
And everyone outside.
As I was saying.
I kind of.
Have like.
Three things.
Like.
My plea is.
The target of.
Media rhetoric.
Don't.
Outcast us.
And don't legislate.
Against us.
Alright.
We're.
We're out of time.
I'm sorry.
That's it.
This is it.
We.
Want to thank you.
For coming.
We.
We have a standard closing.
But we're not doing that.
We're out of time.
We.
Definitely.
Want to say.
That.
You know.
Society.
Considers.
Everyone here.
At DEFCON.
Dangerous.
Here.
We're invested.
In the future.
We're seeking.
To find it.
With every implant.
Procedure.
Project.
Experiment.
Or software.
Program.
That we make.
And we need.
Y'all.
And everyone else.
Here.
To help with that.
Because.
None of us.
Are really.
That.
Different.
From y'all.
We're just curious.
That's why.
We took that.
Extra step.
If you want to.
Want to help.
Want to get involved.
Come find us.
Here in person.
If you're not.
Comfortable with it.
Find us online.
We're out there.
It's not that hard.
To Google.
Can you compute.
Thank you for coming.