1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,300 Our next speaker is actually probably, I think he may have traveled the farthest out of everyone. 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,320 He actually came from Sydney, Australia. 3 00:00:06,700 --> 00:00:07,940 He had to be with us today. 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,020 So just a little bit of background. 5 00:00:14,220 --> 00:00:20,300 He is a federal candidate for the Science Party and actually helped found biohacking in Australia. 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:26,120 He recently made international news for implanting a transport ticket into his hand. 7 00:00:26,940 --> 00:00:31,320 He also co-founded Australia's first open molecular biolab, 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,980 and in doing so, had to navigate some of the heaviest gene control laws in the world. 9 00:00:36,180 --> 00:00:40,520 This has resulted in Australian biohackers being involved in decision-making processes 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:47,660 for modifications to biosafety laws and have worked closely with federal agents in an open, sharing manner. 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:54,800 And now he will instruct you on using emerging technologies to engineer your own bioweapons. 12 00:00:54,980 --> 00:00:55,900 Fun word. 13 00:00:57,380 --> 00:01:01,600 And without further ado, let me bring on Meow Ludo. 14 00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:02,240 Meow, meow. 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:04,680 Thank you very much, Harry. 16 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:11,020 I'd like to thank the Biohacking Village for inviting me here. 17 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:11,980 I'm really excited. 18 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:14,800 And without further ado, we'll get straight into it. 19 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,640 Okay, so just quickly, can everyone hear me okay? 20 00:01:18,980 --> 00:01:19,420 Yep. 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:20,680 So what are bioweapons? 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,420 So they are bacteria, viruses. 23 00:01:26,740 --> 00:01:29,460 And toxic agents that come from biological systems. 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,740 Now, these bacteria and viruses exist everywhere. 25 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,440 They become bioweapons when we use them in a weaponized manner as an act of war. 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,220 So this can be against people, and it can also be against agriculture. 27 00:01:42,460 --> 00:01:45,200 And I think this is one area in the 21st century we'll see quite a lot of, 28 00:01:45,260 --> 00:01:48,820 things like viruses to take out crops and affect food supply. 29 00:01:50,180 --> 00:01:51,520 Okay, why use them? 30 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:52,300 Why bioweapons? 31 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:54,420 So bioweapons can be self-regulating. 32 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:55,880 They're weapons. 33 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,980 They're weapons of mass destruction for the poor people. 34 00:01:58,740 --> 00:02:02,500 They're hard to detect when they're made, and they're super deadly. 35 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,620 So millions of times more powerful than the most powerful chemical weapons. 36 00:02:06,900 --> 00:02:08,380 And they're bad ass, bad ass. 37 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,060 Okay, so why don't we use them? 38 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:17,560 So this is a map of countries that are signatories to the Bioweapons Convention. 39 00:02:18,380 --> 00:02:21,520 All the green countries are signatories, and that includes North Korea. 40 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,040 The red countries are generally fourth world countries, 41 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:29,740 third world countries, except for one notable exception, and that's Israel. 42 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,020 Israel also has a biohacker space in it. 43 00:02:33,140 --> 00:02:36,940 So in there, they're not actually UN regulated to not make bioweapons, 44 00:02:37,020 --> 00:02:39,660 which I think is like pretty terrifying, or exciting. 45 00:02:41,180 --> 00:02:45,380 Okay, so this is a list of countries which have had bioweapons programs. 46 00:02:45,700 --> 00:02:46,880 So it's about 13 countries. 47 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:48,880 Some you might not expect. 48 00:02:49,060 --> 00:02:51,940 South Africa is one that I didn't know about before I did this research. 49 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,980 And they actually had quite a large, 50 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:56,940 but unsuccessful bioweapons program. 51 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,040 And places like Japan, UK, Canada. 52 00:03:02,740 --> 00:03:05,660 The big ones were Russia and America, though, in the 60s. 53 00:03:05,860 --> 00:03:09,580 Okay, so what's weaponization mean in the context of biological weapons? 54 00:03:10,020 --> 00:03:13,500 So most of these things exist in nature, but they're not hugely problematic. 55 00:03:13,740 --> 00:03:15,100 There are some exceptions with viruses. 56 00:03:15,580 --> 00:03:19,260 But basically things like anthrax need to be functionalized. 57 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,860 So we can take the spores, make them stick around in the air for longer. 58 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:24,000 We might want to... 59 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:24,260 So it's... 60 00:03:24,260 --> 00:03:26,500 How do we increase their virulence? 61 00:03:26,660 --> 00:03:31,000 So one of the biggest obstacles to DIY hackers making weapons of mass destruction 62 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,120 is actually obtaining virulent strains of these things. 63 00:03:35,220 --> 00:03:38,180 This is why we should be more scared of the people working at universities 64 00:03:38,180 --> 00:03:40,120 and secret government programs, which do exist, 65 00:03:40,420 --> 00:03:43,580 because they have the most easy access to the hardest part, 66 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,280 which is obtaining the really, really nasty versions of one bacteria or virus. 67 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:48,900 Okay, so... 68 00:03:48,900 --> 00:03:50,980 And a lot of the times, these are physical modifications. 69 00:03:50,980 --> 00:03:53,540 So let it sit around the air for long periods of time. 70 00:03:55,780 --> 00:03:59,220 Okay, I'm going to run through a whole heap of ones that exist naturally now 71 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:00,280 and how we might modify them. 72 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,080 So avian influenza, bird flu. 73 00:04:02,340 --> 00:04:03,620 This one's pretty terrifying. 74 00:04:04,220 --> 00:04:04,580 It... 75 00:04:06,220 --> 00:04:09,820 In its normal state, as we find it, it can't be transmitted via aerosol. 76 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:11,000 Now, this is really important. 77 00:04:11,260 --> 00:04:15,480 If you want to create a pandemic worldwide, it needs to be aerosolized. 78 00:04:15,540 --> 00:04:16,660 It needs to be able to move through the air. 79 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,080 If it moves through blood or something like that, like Ebola, 80 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:20,460 it's never going to go worldwide. 81 00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:22,460 But... 82 00:04:22,460 --> 00:04:26,080 You can make the modifications needed to do that very simply 83 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,020 by breeding it inside animals. 84 00:04:28,340 --> 00:04:30,500 So some researchers in the States... 85 00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:32,500 We're in the States. I keep forgetting that. 86 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:33,680 So researchers here... 87 00:04:34,380 --> 00:04:38,320 Researchers here were able to incubate it inside ferrets, 88 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,720 and within seven generations, 89 00:04:40,900 --> 00:04:45,200 it gained the mutations needed to become a pandemic-level virus. 90 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:47,060 So this is not... 91 00:04:47,060 --> 00:04:49,160 You don't need anything high-tech to do this. 92 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:50,940 You need some, like, carrots and lettuce. 93 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,420 And you can get a 60% mortality rate. 94 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:56,460 That's terrifying. 95 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,540 Like, we think about the flu as this thing that people just get. 96 00:04:59,140 --> 00:05:01,240 Really quickly, this thing can be out of control. 97 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,540 And it's got a very small genome. 98 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:06,180 This thing has eight genes. 99 00:05:07,260 --> 00:05:08,540 There's probably people in this room that... 100 00:05:09,060 --> 00:05:11,000 Is that 60% untreated or treated? 101 00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:12,100 Ah, that's treated. 102 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:13,520 Yeah, so... 103 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,160 So it has a small genome, eight genes. 104 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,260 And these can be put onto plasmids, so you can modularize the virus. 105 00:05:21,260 --> 00:05:24,320 Each part of the virus, which is very tiny and very effective, 106 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:25,680 can be put onto plasmids. 107 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:26,440 It can be remixed. 108 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:30,700 And some researchers now are using emerging technology to do this thing. 109 00:05:31,380 --> 00:05:33,220 So avian influenza is bloody terrifying. 110 00:05:35,060 --> 00:05:36,360 I'm just gonna do this one super quickly. 111 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:38,480 So Ebola, it's kind of... 112 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,420 It's really powerful, but it's got a really short incubation time. 113 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:42,500 So unless you can increase that, 114 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,000 it's probably never gonna become pandemic-level. 115 00:05:44,220 --> 00:05:46,620 If you can make it have an incubation time of one month, 116 00:05:46,780 --> 00:05:49,000 which is probably not outside the reach of governments or universities, 117 00:05:49,580 --> 00:05:51,120 this thing could take out the entire world. 118 00:05:51,460 --> 00:05:52,920 Once people start moving through airports 119 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,980 and spread it to other people and they can go to airports, 120 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:55,800 it's all over. 121 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,060 But you have to incubate it inside humans 122 00:05:59,060 --> 00:06:01,740 or have access to stuff which is way out of the leagues of hackers. 123 00:06:02,020 --> 00:06:04,200 So Ebola is, like, a non-issue unless you want to commit suicide 124 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,940 and go to Sierra Leone and bring it back inside your body. 125 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:11,000 Clostridium. 126 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,420 This is probably my favorite. 127 00:06:13,620 --> 00:06:15,880 If I was gonna make bioweapons, 128 00:06:16,220 --> 00:06:18,040 which, if there's feds in the room, I'm not going to, 129 00:06:19,860 --> 00:06:20,860 this is the one I'd pick. 130 00:06:21,260 --> 00:06:23,020 So it's a bacterium. 131 00:06:23,420 --> 00:06:24,740 It's easy to isolate. 132 00:06:25,020 --> 00:06:25,900 This thing's everywhere. 133 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:27,180 It's an obligate anaerobe, 134 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,200 so it has to be cultured without oxygen. 135 00:06:29,380 --> 00:06:30,460 Oxygen's toxic to it. 136 00:06:30,820 --> 00:06:33,020 But people culture this by accident. 137 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,060 If you've ever heard of botulism, 138 00:06:35,180 --> 00:06:36,800 this was around in the 20th century a lot. 139 00:06:37,820 --> 00:06:42,540 Cans of food and people who preserve stuff regularly get this. 140 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:44,080 Without trying. 141 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:44,940 It's common. 142 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:47,100 You can find it in the soil around California. 143 00:06:47,860 --> 00:06:49,720 You can find it in Sydney in urban areas. 144 00:06:50,780 --> 00:06:52,640 It's really, really bad. 145 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:53,300 Super deadly. 146 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,580 Less than 40 grams of crystallized botulinum toxin 147 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,000 could kill the entire human race. 148 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:03,840 But it's difficult to weaponize. 149 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,000 So it's not easy to distribute. 150 00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:06,720 People have tried. 151 00:07:06,860 --> 00:07:10,220 A terrorist group from Japan tried to use it. 152 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,460 There's some Middle Eastern countries that have tried to use it as a weapon. 153 00:07:12,660 --> 00:07:15,540 But you can't easily aerosolize it 154 00:07:15,540 --> 00:07:17,540 and let it hang around for long periods of time. 155 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,000 If that changed, though, 156 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,140 this would be like number one bioweapon in the world. 157 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:22,920 And until then, it's a bit difficult. 158 00:07:23,060 --> 00:07:24,820 But there is one other strategy you can use, 159 00:07:24,860 --> 00:07:25,780 and this is poisoning the world. 160 00:07:26,020 --> 00:07:27,840 So if you eat this toxin, 161 00:07:27,860 --> 00:07:29,320 it would kill you. 162 00:07:29,940 --> 00:07:32,600 If you have a drone and a gram of this, 163 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,100 and you can fly that into a water catchment area, 164 00:07:35,220 --> 00:07:36,340 and they don't have the right controls, 165 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:37,200 which most of them don't. 166 00:07:37,220 --> 00:07:37,760 Like in Australia, 167 00:07:37,860 --> 00:07:41,760 we've had natural biotoxins like Giardia in our water supply before. 168 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:43,880 One gram could take out a million people. 169 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:44,260 Easy. 170 00:07:47,460 --> 00:07:48,560 This is what one of the, 171 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,800 one of the weapons manufacturing devices looks like. 172 00:07:54,140 --> 00:07:55,040 And if you want to, 173 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:55,840 if you want to grow this out, 174 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:57,640 like this one's pretty easy. 175 00:07:58,540 --> 00:07:59,660 All this stuff is like, 176 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,080 you can get it off the shelf. 177 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,040 You can get it from, 178 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:02,840 like online, 179 00:08:03,060 --> 00:08:03,800 from places. 180 00:08:03,980 --> 00:08:06,200 The hardest bit to get is the antibiotics. 181 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:08,380 It's an anaerobe. 182 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,800 If you get a jar and one of those oxygen scavenging packets, 183 00:08:13,140 --> 00:08:17,060 it's very, very close to how we isolate anaerobes in the lab. 184 00:08:19,380 --> 00:08:19,740 Overnight, 185 00:08:19,780 --> 00:08:22,240 you can get exponential amounts of it as well. 186 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:22,700 So it's pretty, 187 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:23,320 pretty easy. 188 00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:25,540 Anthrax, 189 00:08:25,540 --> 00:08:26,120 everybody's favorite. 190 00:08:27,380 --> 00:08:30,660 So this is a bacteria. 191 00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:33,440 It's easy to weaponize. 192 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,460 So basically you grind it in with sand. 193 00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:37,600 There's this, 194 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:39,080 I went and had a look. 195 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,060 It's very easy to find information about how to do this online. 196 00:08:42,340 --> 00:08:44,120 This thing can just stay in the air forever. 197 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:45,440 Once you get particles that are small enough, 198 00:08:46,460 --> 00:08:48,380 and it's difficult to isolate. 199 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:52,300 This is the thing that makes it a poor choice of weapon for hackers. 200 00:08:54,020 --> 00:08:55,200 The specialized media, 201 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:56,740 the petri dishes you need to grow it on. 202 00:08:56,780 --> 00:08:59,960 You have to put an ingredient in there called phallus acetate. 203 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:01,020 Has anyone heard of this? 204 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:02,220 Just out of curiosity. 205 00:09:03,420 --> 00:09:03,820 Yeah. 206 00:09:03,860 --> 00:09:05,780 So it's the poison is poison. 207 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,640 That thing is probably more regulated than anthrax. 208 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,580 So you're not going to bother trying to isolate it. 209 00:09:15,660 --> 00:09:16,060 Yeah. 210 00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:16,900 I was like, 211 00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:17,920 is there a way around this? 212 00:09:18,020 --> 00:09:18,860 There's no way around it. 213 00:09:18,980 --> 00:09:20,000 You can't order it from China. 214 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,220 You can't order it from anywhere where you're not going to be tracked. 215 00:09:24,020 --> 00:09:25,200 And even if you do, 216 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,360 bioterrorist groups that have tried to do this couldn't find strains that were going to kill anyone. 217 00:09:31,740 --> 00:09:35,320 It takes a government level funding to get strains that do this. 218 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:40,820 And this is basically evidence as to why every anthrax attack that's happened 219 00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:44,580 has been caused by a disgruntled academic in a bioweapons programs. 220 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:46,180 Give them more funding. 221 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:50,180 Okay. 222 00:09:50,940 --> 00:09:52,000 So a couple of these. 223 00:09:52,060 --> 00:09:53,860 So the clostridium and the anthrax, 224 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,900 they form this thing called endospores, 225 00:09:55,900 --> 00:09:56,400 which is when they, 226 00:09:56,420 --> 00:09:57,240 when they sense danger, 227 00:09:57,540 --> 00:10:02,100 they lock themselves up into a specialized kind of protective device and go into suspended animation. 228 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,220 This means they can survive for really long periods of time. 229 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:07,660 You can't clean them. 230 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:08,300 You can't use bleach. 231 00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:10,180 One of the biggest problems I have as, 232 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,140 as a biologist is when we, 233 00:10:12,180 --> 00:10:14,420 we have to sterilize everything in an autoclave, 234 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:16,820 but some bacterial endospores will survive. 235 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:16,880 And that's what we're trying to do. 236 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:17,020 We're trying to get rid of that. 237 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:18,960 And yeah, 238 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:19,440 this one has it. 239 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:21,880 Okay. 240 00:10:21,940 --> 00:10:22,120 Yeah. 241 00:10:22,180 --> 00:10:22,400 So, 242 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:23,440 and the way that it kills you, 243 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:24,440 it basically has this, 244 00:10:24,540 --> 00:10:28,240 it has a protective element that stops the body from being able to break it down. 245 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:34,040 Then it has a three protein lethal toxin that just spreads and it takes you out. 246 00:10:35,020 --> 00:10:35,540 Not good. 247 00:10:35,660 --> 00:10:35,880 Oh yeah. 248 00:10:35,980 --> 00:10:36,800 And basically you can, 249 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:37,900 you can breathe it in. 250 00:10:38,020 --> 00:10:39,720 You can get it skin to skin contact. 251 00:10:39,860 --> 00:10:40,440 You can eat it. 252 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,460 But the inhalation is the one you're gonna be worried about. 253 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:44,480 That's 50 to 80% even with treatment. 254 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:45,820 So it's dangerous. 255 00:10:45,820 --> 00:10:46,240 If you can, 256 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:46,520 if you, 257 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:47,720 if you can mass produce it, 258 00:10:47,740 --> 00:10:48,260 it's terrifying. 259 00:10:49,220 --> 00:10:49,780 The thing is, 260 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:51,280 on that note as well though, 261 00:10:51,380 --> 00:10:52,880 it's not really self replicating. 262 00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:55,300 It's not gonna like spread through populations or anything like that. 263 00:10:55,340 --> 00:10:55,980 It's like targeted. 264 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,680 You drop it on a city or something like that. 265 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:01,160 Unlike smallpox. 266 00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:03,220 Okay. 267 00:11:03,460 --> 00:11:05,260 So smallpox is really, 268 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,200 really scary. 269 00:11:07,620 --> 00:11:10,000 It doesn't have a huge mortality rate, 270 00:11:10,620 --> 00:11:10,940 but, 271 00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:12,200 you know, 272 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:12,500 it's, 273 00:11:12,660 --> 00:11:14,580 I think I have some stats in the next slide about how, 274 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:14,720 how, 275 00:11:15,820 --> 00:11:16,740 it's really deadly. 276 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,760 So it's got 186,000 base pair genome. 277 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:21,160 It's like, 278 00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:22,180 it's big, 279 00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:24,920 but it's not out of the realms of synthesis from scratch. 280 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:26,160 It's just gonna be very expensive. 281 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,400 And the highly virulent variola major, 282 00:11:32,580 --> 00:11:34,660 and one of the strands we were most worried about, 283 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:36,560 is actually online in a database. 284 00:11:37,140 --> 00:11:40,000 So you can just search smallpox genome 285 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,280 and the first two entries are the complete 186,000 base pairs. 286 00:11:45,820 --> 00:11:46,080 What's that? 287 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:47,800 Yeah. 288 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,340 That's what we're about to go into. 289 00:11:49,860 --> 00:11:50,640 So it's, 290 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:52,160 it's linear double-stranded DNA. 291 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,220 This is important because this is easy to work with. 292 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:55,800 RNA is a pain in the ass. 293 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:57,260 Double-stranded DNA, 294 00:11:57,420 --> 00:11:57,740 oh man, 295 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:58,100 that's like, 296 00:11:58,220 --> 00:11:59,400 we've got lots of tools to deal with that. 297 00:11:59,980 --> 00:12:01,300 One of them being CRISPR. 298 00:12:01,540 --> 00:12:03,420 So it's got 179, 299 00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:06,260 about 187 open reading frames like genes, 300 00:12:07,140 --> 00:12:09,240 with greater than 65 amino acids. 301 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,700 So these are things that are important for smallpox to do something. 302 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,080 And most of them have a high correspondence with other proteins. 303 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,640 So I don't know if many of you can see, 304 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,100 there's variola here and vaccinia here. 305 00:12:24,060 --> 00:12:25,540 Vaccinia is the cowpox virus. 306 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:26,920 This is what they immunize you against. 307 00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:30,080 US soldiers are still being immunized against this. 308 00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:30,660 They got started, 309 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:32,380 it started again in 2002, I believe. 310 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,260 So US perceives this as a threat. 311 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:37,960 There's over 90% homology in proteins 312 00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:41,640 of over 150 of the genes between vaccinia 313 00:12:42,420 --> 00:12:43,140 and variola. 314 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,760 Meaning if you can get your hands on the vaccinia virus, 315 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,300 you've got 90% of smallpox. 316 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:52,740 And you can buy it for 450 bucks. 317 00:12:54,660 --> 00:12:56,720 You do need some licenses and stuff like that, 318 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,180 but a lot of people have access to this, 319 00:12:58,220 --> 00:12:58,920 healthcare professionals, 320 00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:00,260 vets. 321 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,040 If you're working with animals, 322 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:05,960 where you may be exposed to certain viruses, 323 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:06,960 you can get this. 324 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:07,680 So that's like, 325 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:09,080 I don't know what monitoring is on this, 326 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:10,300 but it's not impossible to get it. 327 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:13,480 Okay, and then when you get it, 328 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:14,160 what do you need to do? 329 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,260 So there's NCBI, 330 00:13:16,460 --> 00:13:18,240 it's a database of pretty much everything 331 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:19,200 that's ever been sequenced. 332 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:20,500 It's pretty easy to use, 333 00:13:20,540 --> 00:13:21,280 you can automate it. 334 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,200 Once you find the differences 335 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,800 between the smallpox and vaccinia virus, 336 00:13:28,340 --> 00:13:30,520 you can then get DNA synthesized. 337 00:13:31,060 --> 00:13:32,040 IDT is monitored, 338 00:13:32,180 --> 00:13:33,700 but if you're ordering small sections, 339 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,000 which are not obvious 340 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,120 or are shared by a lot of different organisms, 341 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:40,980 you can escape detection. 342 00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:43,220 We'll talk a little bit more 343 00:13:43,220 --> 00:13:44,280 about escaping detection in a sec. 344 00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:47,620 So you can just type in the G's, T's, C's and A's 345 00:13:47,620 --> 00:13:48,200 into a box, 346 00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:49,600 hit build, 347 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:50,620 and then in three days, 348 00:13:50,660 --> 00:13:51,940 you get the DNA ordered to your door, 349 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:53,440 and then you can start correcting the errors 350 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,500 in your vaccinia virus and making smallpox. 351 00:13:56,180 --> 00:13:56,720 You can, 352 00:13:56,780 --> 00:13:58,000 while you're working with the elements, 353 00:13:58,160 --> 00:13:59,300 you can put them into plasmids, 354 00:13:59,420 --> 00:14:00,500 which copy themselves, 355 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:01,260 and you can make more. 356 00:14:02,260 --> 00:14:03,800 And this means you have a library 357 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,160 of genetic elements in smallpox, 358 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:06,620 and then you reach the slide. 359 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:07,880 I actually copied this slide 360 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,100 teaching university students, 361 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:11,840 on how to do basic genetic engineering, 362 00:14:12,020 --> 00:14:15,000 but I thought the little success flag at the end 363 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:16,220 still held true for this speech. 364 00:14:19,620 --> 00:14:20,060 Okay. 365 00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:23,520 You can use bacteria as a way to make more virus. 366 00:14:23,740 --> 00:14:24,940 So they're just DNA. 367 00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:25,520 You know, 368 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,780 we talk a lot about whether viruses are alive or not. 369 00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:31,360 Bacteria are just a way for viruses to copy themselves, 370 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,780 the way that we are just ways for sperm and eggs 371 00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:34,700 to copy themselves. 372 00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:37,080 So I think they're well alive, 373 00:14:37,260 --> 00:14:40,100 and you can use them to do all of your copying work. 374 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:41,280 Okay. 375 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,340 And people are doing this. 376 00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:47,200 The Guardian was ordering sections of the smallpox genome, 377 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:48,220 and they weren't detected. 378 00:14:48,540 --> 00:14:49,680 They made some small modifications. 379 00:14:50,220 --> 00:14:52,900 But this is journalists that are thinking about this. 380 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,020 So if they're thinking about it, 381 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:56,140 terrorists are most definitely thinking about doing this. 382 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,240 I'll make these slides available as well 383 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,760 to anyone that might be interested. 384 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,980 And as Keone was talking about before, 385 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,680 they just made horsepox. 386 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:07,340 Oh, sorry. 387 00:15:08,660 --> 00:15:09,140 Horsepox. 388 00:15:09,220 --> 00:15:09,380 Yes. 389 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:10,100 They said, 390 00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:13,780 they synthesized something that's basically as difficult as smallpox from scratch. 391 00:15:13,980 --> 00:15:15,340 This is researchers that have done this. 392 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,940 But the methods they were using and the amount of money they had 393 00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:25,000 is not outside the realms of really dedicated terrorists or biohackers. 394 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,180 So we know, 395 00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:28,920 we've got basic proof that we can make smallpox again. 396 00:15:30,860 --> 00:15:33,840 The researchers who did this work are reported to have gone through 397 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,200 all appropriate national regulatory authorities. 398 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:37,920 That's the thing which really terrified me. 399 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:40,080 And there clearly needs to be an international cooperation 400 00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:40,920 component to these policies. 401 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,940 And I'll talk about that in the regulation section. 402 00:15:43,580 --> 00:15:44,920 We're just going to zip through these slides 403 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:45,760 because I'm running out of time. 404 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,900 So the baby boomers are obsessed with millennials killing everything. 405 00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:54,780 Like killing the napkin industry, killing Blockbuster. 406 00:15:54,980 --> 00:15:55,920 So I thought, 407 00:15:55,980 --> 00:15:57,300 maybe we should turn it around. 408 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,480 There's one more to go. 409 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,180 So when we're looking for genetic, 410 00:16:02,420 --> 00:16:03,300 targeted genetic bioweapons, 411 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:04,900 we're looking at exploiting difference. 412 00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:07,280 Turns out, 413 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:08,200 across your lifetime, 414 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,080 10% of your DNA gets hacked. 415 00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:10,840 It's heavily methylated. 416 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:11,600 It gets methylated. 417 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,300 So it's actually one of the easiest things to target, 418 00:16:14,460 --> 00:16:17,200 but no one's worked out a way to weaponize that yet. 419 00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:19,120 But if they do, 420 00:16:20,340 --> 00:16:23,460 it could fix the economy and give me a chance to buy a house one day. 421 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,580 Okay, so this quickly is gene drives as a bioweapon. 422 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,420 I'm not going to go through the mechanisms of how it goes, 423 00:16:33,460 --> 00:16:33,980 but basically, 424 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:35,500 when you put a gene drive in, 425 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,400 it increases the chance it gets selected by copying itself to another genome. 426 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,560 How do you use this as a weapon? 427 00:16:40,660 --> 00:16:41,200 Fun stuff. 428 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,720 So if you can get access to an IVF clinic, 429 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,960 and infect 10,000 people, 430 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:47,500 within 16 generations, 431 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,620 that allele becomes 100% dominant in the population. 432 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:52,440 It's slow, 433 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:54,000 but it's effective. 434 00:16:54,420 --> 00:16:55,580 So for ethnic cleansing, 435 00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:56,620 if you have someone of like, 436 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:57,440 I don't know, 437 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,180 like a redhead or ginger, 438 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,660 you don't like them because they don't have souls or something like that, 439 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:03,800 you can go in and, 440 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,440 like you couldn't do this as a hacker. 441 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,260 You could do it as a government though, 442 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,020 you can implant genes, 443 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:11,060 they'll copy themselves across, 444 00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:12,100 and by the time anyone knows, 445 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:12,660 it's too late. 446 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:14,280 So it's already so spread in the population, 447 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,400 you can't undo what's happened. 448 00:17:17,020 --> 00:17:19,720 Especially if there's groups with isolated genetic diversity. 449 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,160 So if there's a group of indigenous people, 450 00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:23,560 for example, 451 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,200 that might not breed heavily outside their thing, 452 00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:27,620 it increases the chances you could use a gene drive as a weapon. 453 00:17:28,360 --> 00:17:30,240 We know that countries do things like this, 454 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:35,520 because Israel has forcibly given birth control without consent to Ethiopian immigrants, 455 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:36,380 refugees. 456 00:17:36,380 --> 00:17:37,880 Really interesting case. 457 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,600 And if they're thinking things like this is not outside of their control, 458 00:17:41,820 --> 00:17:45,820 there's also rumors unconfirmed of anti-Arab bioweapons being developed in Israel. 459 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,140 The reason I don't think you can make one is because Israel hasn't released one. 460 00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:51,400 In South Africa, 461 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,260 there's rumors of an anti-black person bioweapon in development. 462 00:17:55,780 --> 00:17:57,960 Their bioweapons program is shut down now. 463 00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:02,360 The problem though is that humans are only 0.4% different from each other. 464 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,140 It's almost impossible to make it targeted enough 465 00:18:05,140 --> 00:18:06,540 that you won't have collateral damage. 466 00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:09,660 Okay, so I'm just going to quickly run through. 467 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,040 The easiest bioweapon of all though is vaccination plus malicious attack. 468 00:18:13,260 --> 00:18:15,340 We can modulate our immune systems really easily. 469 00:18:15,980 --> 00:18:17,240 That means we can protect ourselves. 470 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:18,580 So with smallpox, 471 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,980 if we immunized ourselves and then released that into a place that we didn't want, 472 00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:24,260 didn't want to have people, 473 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,360 we would be protected against it. 474 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,280 And I think this is one of the easiest routes. 475 00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:30,280 We can make vaccines really easy. 476 00:18:31,180 --> 00:18:31,980 Okay, regulation. 477 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:39,320 So I can order DNA really easily online. 478 00:18:39,740 --> 00:18:41,640 That's actually a section of the smallpox genome. 479 00:18:41,860 --> 00:18:45,400 This might have got flagged if I'd actually gone through and purchased it. 480 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,980 But there's plenty of ways that you can skirt around this. 481 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,120 So someone was talking before about DNA synthesizers in the last talk. 482 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:54,760 So DNA synthesizers on LabX, 483 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,160 I picked this up just a couple of days ago. 484 00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:58,180 I can buy this machine for $2,000 485 00:18:58,180 --> 00:19:01,820 and I can completely circumvent any monitoring that can happen. 486 00:19:01,820 --> 00:19:04,420 I know that this happens. 487 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,320 Plenty of hackers get turned down by companies like IDT 488 00:19:07,820 --> 00:19:09,120 to get their DNA made. 489 00:19:09,220 --> 00:19:10,320 So they have to find alternate sources. 490 00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:12,540 And there's plenty of people happy to make you DNA for money. 491 00:19:13,060 --> 00:19:14,540 They don't even ask what you're making. 492 00:19:16,460 --> 00:19:18,480 And we're moving towards this, 493 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,460 which is completely integrated desktop environment 494 00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:22,560 where you have a closed loop system. 495 00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:25,060 You don't ever have to contact anyone. 496 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:26,860 You can synthesize your own DNA. 497 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:27,980 You can sequence your own DNA. 498 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:30,960 There's microfluidic tools around now 499 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:31,940 that you can do this with. 500 00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:34,480 This is actually a microfluidic lab that people are building. 501 00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:36,180 It's only in academia at the moment, 502 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:40,040 but I've got plans to make a DNA synthesizer in my inbox 503 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,040 from a guy at university who sent them to me. 504 00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:43,260 It cost me about $10,000, 505 00:19:43,460 --> 00:19:44,500 but I wouldn't have to tell anyone. 506 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,180 So my recommendations for regulation 507 00:19:48,180 --> 00:19:50,100 are actually to monitor this chemical. 508 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,520 So this is the precursor to DNA. 509 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:55,340 It's expensive. 510 00:19:55,740 --> 00:19:56,920 It's hard to make. 511 00:19:57,460 --> 00:19:59,140 And it's completely necessary 512 00:19:59,140 --> 00:20:00,940 if you want to have any kind of DNA. 513 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:01,140 You've got to have a workflow. 514 00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:04,080 So even in isolation and things like this, 515 00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:05,660 you're going to need to access this at some point. 516 00:20:05,780 --> 00:20:09,580 If you can monitor worldwide the traffic of this chemical, 517 00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:14,960 you know who is interested or is making things with DNA. 518 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,160 From there, you can monitor even more, 519 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,320 like are they likely to be a bioterrorist. 520 00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:22,300 You also don't have to implement any regulation. 521 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:23,940 I think this is important. 522 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,320 So that's the only way that I can't make bioweapons, 523 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,160 is if I can't get access to that chemical. 524 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:34,100 It needs to be international, 525 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:38,540 and it also increases the ability for covert surveillance further on. 526 00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:40,180 So if you know these people are making a bioweapon, 527 00:20:40,260 --> 00:20:43,060 you can let them go until you want to shut them down 528 00:20:43,060 --> 00:20:44,720 and find out even more about their organization. 529 00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:47,220 And it's the bottleneck I encountered 530 00:20:47,220 --> 00:20:49,180 where I was going to try and get around the system 531 00:20:49,180 --> 00:20:50,780 rather than get access to that chemical 532 00:20:50,780 --> 00:20:52,200 because it was too hard, too expensive. 533 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,740 Now time for the practical. 534 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:57,760 No? We're not going to make any bioweapons? 535 00:20:57,980 --> 00:20:58,340 Okay. 536 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,660 Thank you very much for inviting me along. 537 00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:04,140 I'll take questions if we have time. 538 00:21:05,580 --> 00:21:07,220 Beautiful. Fantastic. 539 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,580 If you do have questions, please come to the mic. 540 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,380 What do you think about... 541 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:30,700 Do you think it's likely that the digital to biological converter 542 00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:33,420 where you have a completely automated synthetic biology lab 543 00:21:33,420 --> 00:21:35,820 will become cheaper in the next decade? 544 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:37,200 Like, is this actually going to become a thing 545 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:37,880 that's going to be in hospitals? 546 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:40,520 Yeah, I think we'll see it. 547 00:21:40,580 --> 00:21:42,380 Like, DNA synthesis, we were talking before, 548 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:43,380 is exactly where it's at. 549 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,320 That's the next big thing that we're looking at. 550 00:21:45,420 --> 00:21:47,060 We're seeing companies come out of IndieBio 551 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,640 that are doing things like long-term DNA storage on DNA. 552 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,460 DNA synthesis is quick. 553 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,520 If you have the machines, it's cheap. 554 00:21:54,740 --> 00:21:56,040 But the infrastructure is hard. 555 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,360 Like, actually getting the machine or building it, 556 00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:57,760 building the machine. 557 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,580 No hackers have built a DIY gene synthesizer yet. 558 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:02,980 But it will happen very soon. 559 00:22:03,140 --> 00:22:04,740 But, I mean, Craig Ventures' company made 560 00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:07,260 the synthetic biology lab automated thing 561 00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:10,020 where you could produce a phage without having to touch a lab. 562 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,140 And that's the technology that, to me, seems crazy. 563 00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:13,780 Definitely. 564 00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:17,340 And if you have access to DNA synthesizers, 565 00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:18,200 you can do this type of stuff. 566 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:19,540 And I think you'll see it, 567 00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:20,800 especially with personalized medicine and things, 568 00:22:20,860 --> 00:22:23,340 you'll be able to print off DNA in a GP's clinic 569 00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:24,380 or something like that pretty easily. 570 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,540 We have time for one more question. 571 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,060 Beautiful. 572 00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:32,640 What about DNA recycling? 573 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,500 So, like, what about disassembling DNA 574 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:38,340 that you've already collected from plants or whatever 575 00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:39,740 and then reusing the nucleotides? 576 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:40,140 Yeah. 577 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:41,140 So, you could. 578 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:44,080 Like, I looked at all... 579 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,180 Man, you could do all sorts of stuff in this space. 580 00:22:46,260 --> 00:22:47,220 Like, if you really want to do it, 581 00:22:47,220 --> 00:22:47,780 no one can stop you. 582 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:50,020 Like, there's Ebola elements in the human genome 583 00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:50,580 you can pull out. 584 00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:51,340 So, like... 585 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,020 But, yeah, recycling would be it. 586 00:22:54,060 --> 00:22:54,800 The hardest... 587 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,340 So, you can go and rip out individual cells. 588 00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:58,040 You can rip out sections of other things. 589 00:22:58,120 --> 00:22:59,120 You're still going to need primers. 590 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,120 Because even with the nucleotides, 591 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,960 unless you can put them together in an ordered way... 592 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:07,400 Yeah. 593 00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:09,640 So, you need to modify the nucleotides 594 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:10,760 to make them phosphoramidides 595 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:11,900 and it's hard and expensive. 596 00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:14,000 This is why it's a good bottleneck, right? 597 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:15,040 Like, there's no way around it. 598 00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:15,520 At some point, 599 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,860 you're either going to have to learn chemistry. 600 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:17,760 No, thank you. 601 00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:19,640 I took this to a chemist and said, 602 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:20,220 how hard is this? 603 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,200 He's like, just buy it from China. 604 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:22,260 So... 605 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:23,160 Yeah. 606 00:23:25,380 --> 00:23:25,700 Okay. 607 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,760 Thank you very much, guys. 608 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:27,820 I'm going to turn it around a little bit 609 00:23:27,820 --> 00:23:28,740 if anyone wants to speak to me afterwards.