1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,520 Welcome to the Car Hacking Village Turbo Talks with Sameer and Vlad, abusing smart cars 2 00:00:06,520 --> 00:00:14,020 with QR codes. Welcome everyone, my name is Sameer, I'm the Senior Director, Security 3 00:00:14,020 --> 00:00:19,800 Consulting for Spartan Security Labs and along with me I have Vlad. Hello, my name is Vlad 4 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:28,440 Gusimelski, Senior Security Consultant at Spartan Federal. Sameer and I work on doing 5 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:35,380 security assessments on various devices, smart vehicles, scale systems, wide scale distributed 6 00:00:35,380 --> 00:00:42,240 networks, satellite systems, that sort of thing. Applications, mobile and anything in 7 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:49,120 between. So let's get started, we have for today's agenda we are talking about abusing 8 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:56,120 smart cars with QR codes and for you we'll talk about history of QR codes. QR codes have 9 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,420 been around for over two decades. How did they come about? How did they come about? 10 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:03,380 How QR code got ventured into the automotive space? What are they being currently used 11 00:01:03,380 --> 00:01:08,700 for in automotive industry? Especially with smart cars, what are some of the security 12 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:14,920 challenges around it? And some of the trivia questions that we are going to have, so please 13 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:21,120 listen in carefully. You are going to win a t-shirt that I'm wearing, Do Good, Know 14 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:27,200 Evil. We are not going to give it in the talk, so whoever wins, please collect it with 15 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:28,420 Tej. He's sitting there. 16 00:01:28,420 --> 00:01:31,900 He's sitting right in the end. You can see his hand right there. So let's get started. 17 00:01:34,540 --> 00:01:39,660 So history of QR codes. As I said, right, I mean, it's been there for over two decades. 18 00:01:39,860 --> 00:01:45,880 It was born in Japan with a two-people team, Mashiro Hirohara and one more team member. 19 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:53,780 Denso Corporation was sort of the owner for that. It gained its popularity in 2002 when 20 00:01:53,780 --> 00:01:58,120 it started getting used for general purposes for ticketing systems. 21 00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:02,580 For advertising, for various other things. Steven, I'll end. 22 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:12,620 So previously when the QR codes were used, people were using dedicated readers for them, just 23 00:02:12,620 --> 00:02:18,980 like the kind that you see in the store for scanning prices on various products. As smartphones 24 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:25,960 became more popular, it was not possible to capture with your phone's camera and decode it. So 25 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,400 it really opened up the market for us. Then there was the technology, the technology that we are 26 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:35,060 for everyone. Home users were now able to open up hyperlinks that are instructions with 27 00:02:35,060 --> 00:02:40,640 their smart phone. They're able to follow directions, check in at various locations, do 28 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:48,060 their own inventory control. Alright, that brings us to our first trivia question. Which 29 00:02:48,060 --> 00:02:55,480 automaker first started using QR codes and when? Alright, when? Alright, you get half 30 00:02:55,480 --> 00:03:05,200 of a t-shirt. Anyone else wants to take a stab at it? Ninety-nine? Ninety-four? Alright, 31 00:03:05,340 --> 00:03:11,860 you get the other half of the t-shirt. Yes, so you're right. Toyota started using them in 32 00:03:13,380 --> 00:03:20,080 1994 for actually tracking the parts and the cars that they were making. So please make sure 33 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,460 that you get your half and half t-shirt from Tej. Current use of QR codes and QR codes 34 00:03:25,460 --> 00:03:30,920 in the transportation industry is sort of like now widespread, right? They are using for, 35 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,840 just as I said, right, tracking cars and its parts, for inventory control, for fleet tracking. 36 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:42,940 Also, Michigan Department of Transportation has recently started using them for signal 37 00:03:42,940 --> 00:03:48,920 repairs. So the image that you see is actual image where instead of having a big log that 38 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:55,300 they used to store in the signal repair box itself, now instead of that they take their 39 00:03:55,460 --> 00:04:01,560 smart devices, scan the QR code, and then through that they are able to gain all the 40 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:08,280 information that they need to have for repairing the system. It's being also used widely in 41 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:13,800 automotive sales. It's sort of like replicating the good salespeople because you can actually 42 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:20,660 scan a QR code and get a consistent message about what this vehicle is, what are its 43 00:04:20,660 --> 00:04:25,400 capabilities, engine, et cetera, et cetera. And marketing and promotions have 44 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:34,180 been around for ages, bloody or not. So, next question. So, can anybody tell me if a QR code 45 00:04:34,180 --> 00:04:39,780 can be hacked? Yes. Do you want to elaborate a little bit on it? 46 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,380 So that's not hacking. That's like fabricating. 47 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,780 . So you get a negative t-shirt, so you put it together? 48 00:04:59,060 --> 00:05:00,680 . Yes, gentleman in the back. 49 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,860 . If QR codes are linked to a URL trooper, which most of them are, 50 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,720 you can tamper with the URL trooper, read right? . 51 00:05:11,180 --> 00:05:12,620 Absolutely. You do get a shirt. 52 00:05:13,220 --> 00:05:20,320 . So the URL answer is no. I mean, you do have to physically tamper the black 53 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,360 and white, to kind of make it . So... 54 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:25,220 . Please get it. 55 00:05:25,220 --> 00:05:36,180 you get a full t-shirt. So now that it cannot be hacked, what is the real problem? I think 56 00:05:36,180 --> 00:05:41,200 the next few images will tell you what the real problem is. When we start really using 57 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:49,300 them for telling directions to smart cars and autonomous vehicles. And this is happening 58 00:05:49,300 --> 00:05:54,020 in California. California Department of Transportation is the first one to actually start rolling 59 00:05:54,020 --> 00:06:00,460 out QR codes on the side of the roads. That's because it's the number one location in the 60 00:06:00,460 --> 00:06:06,500 United States right now where autonomous and semi-autonomous vehicles are on the roads. Right 61 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:11,640 now they're using them to signal construction zones ahead. They're starting to roll out speed 62 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:21,600 limit signs in the form of QR codes. So anyone want to take like a guess on what are other 63 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,980 problems that can happen in a smart car? 64 00:06:24,020 --> 00:06:53,740 Are there more t-shirts to give away? All right I'll make it easy for you. So the first thing is right. I mean you could have a QR code that maliciously directs you to a link that gets you, that gets a malware onto your moving vehicle or for a particular component. Then there are issues with physical manipulations. If in the night someone 65 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,840 switches the QR code from stop sign to speed at 50 miles an 66 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:01,700 hour, that could be an issue. So you could cause a lot of 67 00:07:01,700 --> 00:07:06,180 havoc. And then some intentional and unintentional removal of the 68 00:07:06,180 --> 00:07:09,960 code. If the next generation cars are going to rely on QR 69 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:15,300 codes for V2X communication, then you have an issue. Because 70 00:07:15,820 --> 00:07:21,400 if there are lighting issues, if it's unable to read the sign, if 71 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,220 there's too much bright light, if there's raining or other 72 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:29,980 environmental factors, that could be an issue unless it's 73 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:33,040 been coupled with other technologies like GPS and 74 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:39,880 others. That's right. So for example, when you do V2V, V2X 75 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,720 communication, you're using a radio signal. The signal could be 76 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,560 monitored. There are actually ground listening stations that 77 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,300 would observe that communication and notice if 78 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:51,380 something is happening that possibly shouldn't. 79 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,040 As a police officer drives down the road, they can physically look 80 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,180 at the signs and they will know if something is missing. But if 81 00:08:00,180 --> 00:08:04,560 it's a QR code sign, since it's not human readable, a human can't 82 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,920 actually immediately recognize if the sign has changed or has 83 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,680 been tampered with. Even if somebody walks up with a sharpie 84 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,620 marker and draws on it, it'll A, modify the sign or B, make it 85 00:08:14,620 --> 00:08:17,500 unreadable. And somebody driving by at 70 miles an hour will not 86 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:18,400 be able to tell the difference. 87 00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:28,140 Now, this is one of my favorites. So I did mention speed 88 00:08:28,140 --> 00:08:32,020 limit signs. If somebody were to swap out speed limit signs for 89 00:08:32,020 --> 00:08:35,240 25 miles an hour school zone and 75 miles an hour on the highway, 90 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,240 they're both valid signs. But by transposing them in different 91 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,280 locations, you're impacting the school zone as well as the 92 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,900 highway for the smart vehicles that would actually be designed. 93 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,420 And of course, you would look like an idiot to the normal 94 00:08:46,420 --> 00:08:48,880 vehicles going down the highway because your autonomous vehicle 95 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,380 will all of a sudden slow down or is barreling through the 96 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,460 school zone. Other fun signs to move around are the one-way 97 00:08:56,460 --> 00:09:00,140 signs, traffic keep left, keep right, or if you're trying to 98 00:09:00,140 --> 00:09:03,640 merge into the 287 north or south, and the human readable 99 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,340 sign is very clear. Where's the QR code that's telling your smart 100 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:15,940 vehicle to get in the wrong lane? Obscuring QR codes, 101 00:09:16,020 --> 00:09:18,980 right? That brings a lot of issues. So, like, if there's a 102 00:09:18,980 --> 00:09:21,380 mud splash on the QR code, you cannot read it. If you're 103 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,500 driving, if there's stickers someone put in graffiti. Graffiti 104 00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:30,040 artists love to draw on signs that are on the side of the road 105 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,180 or overhead. That could be an issue because then it becomes 106 00:09:33,180 --> 00:09:36,300 unreadable. There are lighting issues, as I talked earlier. 107 00:09:37,020 --> 00:09:41,000 Rain or snow can affect the visibility of those signs and 108 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,700 the readability of those signs. And then also, other 109 00:09:43,700 --> 00:09:47,340 environmental factors like sun damage, they can get faded over 110 00:09:47,340 --> 00:09:51,060 time. Those are some of the valid use cases. 111 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,240 And then, obviously, the thieves. Like the guy, this one, 112 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:57,920 he likes holding these bolts for some obvious reasons. 113 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:02,080 Uh, yeah. So, as we were looking for an image for the 114 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,540 slide, the first thing that struck me as I found this 115 00:10:04,540 --> 00:10:10,580 image is, oh, man, I don't have one of those signs yet. And 116 00:10:10,580 --> 00:10:12,880 having lived near High Street, you wouldn't believe the number 117 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:18,440 of times that that sign disappeared. And if that's, if 118 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,540 that sign is removed, this is what you're expecting. 119 00:10:23,420 --> 00:10:25,900 So, the kind of things you typically wouldn't think of as a 120 00:10:25,900 --> 00:10:30,880 human driver, a sign for a boat ramp or a, uh, a sign warning you 121 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,820 to stop, uh, is not necessary for a human driver because you 122 00:10:33,820 --> 00:10:36,940 see that there's a, a boat ramp. Uh, whereas a semi-autonomous 123 00:10:36,940 --> 00:10:39,840 vehicle can proceed going down the road because it's a nice 124 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,420 paved road, nice, uh, gradual decline, and a parking spot at 125 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:51,380 the very bottom. Malicious links. We talked about the 126 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,460 smart car. We did talk about, like, how a smart car can get 127 00:10:54,460 --> 00:10:57,980 itself, uh, into a situation where a malicious code can be 128 00:10:57,980 --> 00:11:00,760 downloaded on it. It could be a malware or something. So, it 129 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,140 scans a QR code, QR code then directs it to a malware site, 130 00:11:05,380 --> 00:11:09,080 and then, uh, malware gets dumped onto the vehicle. So, 131 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,180 that's, again, a possibility, uh, with the QR codes as an 132 00:11:13,180 --> 00:11:17,580 issue. Exactly. So, as we mentioned earlier, uh, we have 133 00:11:17,580 --> 00:11:21,020 not seen any successful implementation, implementations 134 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,940 of an actual buffer overflow within the QR code. But the 135 00:11:23,940 --> 00:11:27,040 gentleman in the back, uh, left, uh, correctly pointed out, uh, if 136 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,000 you tamper with external things the QR code actually points you 137 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,560 at, whether it's a URL shortener or another resource, you can 138 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:36,800 actually then push across, uh, malicious code, you know, via 139 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:48,100 that avenue. And as Vlad mentioned earlier, right? I 140 00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:51,380 mean, these changes are not really noticeable by human 141 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,460 eyes. So, it's, it's a machine readable code only. So, if, if a 142 00:11:55,460 --> 00:11:59,620 stop sign gets, uh, changed by the yield sign, you would not be 143 00:11:59,620 --> 00:12:03,720 able to tell unless, uh, you are Q, you have a QR code reader. 144 00:12:03,860 --> 00:12:07,600 So, that's, that also brings issues with both intentional and 145 00:12:08,260 --> 00:12:11,540 unintentional, uh, attacks. Because someone who's trying to 146 00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:15,360 actually just be on the side of the road, try to service them, 147 00:12:15,420 --> 00:12:18,940 and switch one with the others, that could create a, create a 148 00:12:18,940 --> 00:12:21,380 havoc. So, one of the best things that we've seen, uh, is, uh, 149 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,020 one of the best attack to, uh, one of the best attack factors is 150 00:12:24,020 --> 00:12:26,880 the human. Uh, if you've ever seen the fine paving job the 151 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,440 Department of Public Works sometimes does, and, uh, the way 152 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,540 they put up signs, you know, imagine if they're putting up 153 00:12:32,540 --> 00:12:35,900 Q, uh, QR code signs. Uh, it's very conceivable to actually see 154 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:38,900 them putting up the wrong sign, because they were pretty sure 155 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:40,720 they were holding the right sign. They'll put it up on the 156 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,700 side of the road and move, uh, move down to the next mile 157 00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:44,000 marker. 158 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,840 All right. Next one, I, I know it's your favorite, but I don't 159 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:49,440 think you want to talk about it. 160 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:51,320 Uh, one of the funniest things 161 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,100 I found, uh, somebody who was doing a little bit of 162 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:58,200 experimentation with, uh, uh, camera systems on semi-autonomous 163 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,360 vehicles. So, this is actually not a self-driving car, but this 164 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,040 is a car that has lane assist technology, and it was turned 165 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:08,220 on. And they had a little bit of fun with, uh, salt. And they 166 00:13:08,220 --> 00:13:10,660 actually made a solid line, a dotted line around the vehicle, 167 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,020 and the vehicle refused to drive out. So, they essentially made a 168 00:13:14,020 --> 00:13:14,480 smart trap. 169 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,440 You've probably seen it previously in the movies, in 170 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,380 the voodoo acts that spray salt on the vehicle. 171 00:13:21,380 --> 00:13:21,460 And, uh, you can just, uh, you can just, uh, you can just, uh, 172 00:13:21,460 --> 00:13:25,180 roll it around and, and things go away. I, I use it for driving 173 00:13:25,180 --> 00:13:28,680 ants and killing them around my house. So, but you can also do 174 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:29,940 that for smart cars. 175 00:13:30,740 --> 00:13:34,180 So, now, that brings us to kind of, like, uh, towards the end of 176 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:37,960 it, which is the solutions. There aren't really very many 177 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,820 solutions, because first of all, the technology and its 178 00:13:40,820 --> 00:13:46,280 implementation in the automotive space is very new. And, uh, you 179 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:50,440 could, one could do, like, a unique signs, uh, signing of, uh, 180 00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:51,260 the QR codes. 181 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:56,500 To say, hey, only autonomous car or self, uh, self-driving cars can 182 00:13:56,500 --> 00:14:00,060 actually read it for its, uh, authenticity. The other things 183 00:14:00,060 --> 00:14:02,260 that you could also do is, like, cryptographic validation. 184 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,860 Uh, so essentially, for example, uh, California Department of 185 00:14:06,860 --> 00:14:10,160 Transportation, uh, can create a signing key and sign their 186 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,640 signs. And then somebody would have to either produce an 187 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,520 identical sign, uh, which would kill off one of the attack 188 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,760 vectors. Uh, I think the most interesting one is actually GPS 189 00:14:21,380 --> 00:14:24,040 location. And that's encoding the correct GPS location of that 190 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,920 sign within the QR code. So then your smart car would actually, uh, 191 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,580 compare its current GPS location, uh, have, uh, a bit of wiggle 192 00:14:31,580 --> 00:14:36,360 room, uh, uh, and interpret the sign as valid or invalid. But then, 193 00:14:36,380 --> 00:14:38,600 of course, you would have to depend on the trust within the 194 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,680 GPS system and the fact that there's no GPS spoofing, uh, 195 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,740 happening around you. Uh, or the fact that GPS is actually 196 00:14:44,740 --> 00:14:48,900 reliable in your area. Uh, and, of course, attackers could also 197 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:51,360 manufacture their own signs. Once, uh, once you have, uh, an 198 00:14:51,380 --> 00:14:53,100 information, once a standard informant is known, it's only a 199 00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:55,780 matter of time until, uh, the attackers advance as well. 200 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:02,960 Alright. So does anyone know what is a SR code? Alright. 201 00:15:03,820 --> 00:15:11,920 What's the full form of QR code? Quick response. SR code is a slow 202 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,760 response code. So when you add cryptographic, uh, overheads to 203 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,560 it, it can make a QR code into an SR code and it will look like 204 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:19,860 this. 205 00:15:21,380 --> 00:15:25,020 Alright. So, uh, onto, again trivia questions. 206 00:15:28,620 --> 00:15:35,640 Who can name a few ways that QR codes can be manipulated? Yes? 207 00:15:40,780 --> 00:15:50,460 Right. Who remembers the first wide-scale, uh, marketing 208 00:15:50,460 --> 00:16:04,040 deployment of QR codes. Yes. Actually it was a federal agency. Here's a hint. They were 209 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:17,240 putting up pictures of zombies asking are you prepared. So a certain agency that's 210 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,920 interested in people making sure that they actually have preparedness kits at home and 211 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:29,220 that they know how to deal with a pandemic outbreak was putting up posters and QR codes on 212 00:16:29,220 --> 00:16:33,640 New York City bus stops. And then some enterprising individuals started putting up QR 213 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:42,320 codes, perfectly covering up the QR code that was put up. And we actually did, yes, a question 214 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:42,600 in the back. 215 00:16:48,540 --> 00:16:54,300 Yeah, an essentially negative space attack. Yes. That would absolutely work. But these 216 00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:59,020 individuals were actually putting up links to a malicious website and to spam websites. And 217 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:01,840 it was really boring. People were sitting there at the bus stop would take pictures of it and 218 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:13,860 follow those links. Can you answer any questions? Yes. So what kind of concept do you have 219 00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:17,220 to prove that manipulating your QR codes actually is a good idea? 220 00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:24,820 So we've been playing with a few HUD units. We've been able to observe crashes with malicious 221 00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:28,920 codes we've been able to craft up. We have not been able to get code execution. I don't 222 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,700 think anybody else has been. But the fact that we can get a system to lock up and reboot 223 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,560 is an indicator that there's definitely avenues to be explored there. 224 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:41,780 Do you know, like, an autonomous vehicle, an NFT one, reading QR codes right now? 225 00:17:44,140 --> 00:17:47,220 That's why the talk is kind of like futuristic looking, because it's kind of like a 226 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:53,400 smart car, right? Because we have seen the smart cars trying to use it. There was actually a news 227 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:59,020 article on it which was the reason why we did this talk. This was almost like a month or two months 228 00:17:59,020 --> 00:18:02,820 ago. That's alright. So what happened is the California Department of Transportation said 229 00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:06,960 they're going to roll out the system. So any autonomous vehicles that have cameras on board, 230 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,440 it's just a matter of firmware update. No manufacturers are doing it because signs haven't 231 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,980 shown up yet. But as they start churning it up next few months, next few years, you're going to 232 00:18:14,980 --> 00:18:17,220 see firmware updates coming out specifically for the new vehicles. So the California Department of 233 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,840 Transportation is going to be able to read them. We do have an advanced head unit that can read them right now. 234 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:29,040 But I do want to say that I don't believe that it's going to only depend on just the QR code scanning. 235 00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:32,380 They probably would be smarter than that, not to rely on that. 236 00:18:32,420 --> 00:18:33,040 We really hope. 237 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:39,120 So not specific to automators, but when Google had this huge drive of putting up QR codes, 238 00:18:39,380 --> 00:18:45,420 there were a lot of cases regarding people's moved QR codes to redirect people to malware. 239 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:46,280 That is correct. 240 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,460 You work for me, so you don't get it. 241 00:18:52,620 --> 00:19:02,500 I have a question. Do you have people who question this, the problems with it, because people can be 242 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:08,600 altering signs, causing humans to make mistakes, like they could cover up a stop sign. 243 00:19:08,820 --> 00:19:14,700 They could be doing some of these same sort of similar attacks, but fooling humans instead of AI. 244 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:16,480 So we do see that. 245 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:17,220 Especially in the United States. 246 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:18,660 Especially in inner cities. It's very popular. 247 00:19:18,980 --> 00:19:19,260 Thank you. 248 00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:24,460 In inner cities, where people may not necessarily be friendly to police officers, 249 00:19:24,740 --> 00:19:29,520 it's very common to take a street sign and turn it at 90 degrees, so that somebody trying to orient themselves 250 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,520 or somebody trying to respond would get the street cross-section wrong. 251 00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:36,700 Or they're going down one street, and the street they're going down changes. 252 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,800 So now imagine being able to use two autonomous vehicles that are supposedly immune to this. 253 00:19:44,660 --> 00:19:47,220 But if you're going down the road, and you see this. 254 00:19:47,220 --> 00:19:51,320 You see that somebody was really bored and shot at a stop sign, and it has some buckshot holes. 255 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:52,860 You still know it's a stop sign. 256 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:58,780 But if you're missing an eighth of a QR code, the error correction will not make up for it. 257 00:19:59,220 --> 00:20:02,260 You simply have a sign that's unreadable to you. 258 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:05,580 And it could be a construction zone ahead sign. 259 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,060 It could be a 70 mile an hour sign. 260 00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:08,180 Or it could be a stop sign. 261 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,680 That leads me to another, sorry, just a follow-up question. 262 00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:13,060 Not at all. 263 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:13,280 Please. 264 00:20:14,540 --> 00:20:15,620 There's a lot of complexity. 265 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:17,200 Most of the time. 266 00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:18,280 There are a lot of QR codes that you see. 267 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,300 But it seems like for simple messages like stop, if that's all it's trying to convey, 268 00:20:23,660 --> 00:20:31,640 why not have something more resilient to those kinds of either intentional or unintentional? 269 00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:35,320 And that's why I commented earlier, right? 270 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:40,260 When the autonomous vehicles become a reality, which is very close, 271 00:20:40,460 --> 00:20:44,540 I don't think they will rely solely on the QR code. 272 00:20:44,620 --> 00:20:45,760 And that's my hope. 273 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:51,920 Because again, I mean, we just shared several examples and use cases where it could fail. 274 00:20:52,020 --> 00:20:54,300 If it just relies on a QR code scan. 275 00:20:55,940 --> 00:20:56,340 Exactly. 276 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,920 So what happened is once we saw the California Department of Transportation announcement, 277 00:21:00,460 --> 00:21:01,900 we were able to grab the specs. 278 00:21:02,060 --> 00:21:03,580 We were able to grab some of the sample signs. 279 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:08,620 I had used with some of the first firmware that is supposed to be able to read it. 280 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,860 And that's all we had to go on because that's available right now. 281 00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:13,220 It's in the proposal phase. 282 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:15,740 And hopefully it's going to go through a few revisions. 283 00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:18,440 Before it actually becomes mainstream. 284 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,860 This is a curiosity question. 285 00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:23,860 It's not a trivia question. 286 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:31,280 Has anyone been able to or doing any research in doing a man-in-the-middle attack with QR codes? 287 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,460 Doing a remote attack with a man-in-the-middle? 288 00:21:36,180 --> 00:21:36,920 In the room? 289 00:21:39,060 --> 00:21:43,360 Do you mean like man-in-the-middle like you put a TV screen in front of a QR code or something like that? 290 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:45,520 Something where you are... 291 00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:52,700 You can sort of be able to intercept the image before it gets read by the device. 292 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:01,460 Yeah. 293 00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:15,160 So that's another one thing that they could do to at least minimize the human, what you call the physical tampering. 294 00:22:15,740 --> 00:22:16,000 Yeah. 295 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,740 So digital QR coding will prevent one problem. 296 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:19,820 But then it opens up... 297 00:22:19,820 --> 00:22:19,880 Yeah. 298 00:22:20,020 --> 00:22:28,920 It opens up other issues because, again, with the digital image projections, then there's lighting issues. 299 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,120 There's like depth issues of the colors and other things. 300 00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:35,720 So there's other factors that needs to be taken into consideration. 301 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:44,460 So the funniest thing that I've been able to play with is those of you that remember those little badges that you had as little kids with googly eyes where depending which hand you look at, it's a different image. 302 00:22:44,460 --> 00:22:46,820 It's actually possible to print out QR codes. 303 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,160 So if you're in the left lane or the right lane, you're seeing a different QR code. 304 00:22:55,140 --> 00:22:57,460 And they actually appear to be read really, really well. 305 00:22:57,580 --> 00:23:04,820 The fact that you have a prism facing out actually means that you're getting less interference from the rain and snow and less grime on it. 306 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,060 So they actually become less readable than real flat QR codes. 307 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,840 Any other questions? 308 00:23:17,460 --> 00:23:17,960 Thank you. 309 00:23:22,940 --> 00:23:23,560 All right. 310 00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:24,960 So last housekeeping slide. 311 00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:37,940 If you guys have any other questions that you haven't asked yet or you are a little bit shy and want to have a private conversation, you can reach out to Vlad and I at spiron.com or Vlad at spironfederal.com. 312 00:23:37,940 --> 00:23:38,040 Thank you. 313 00:23:38,060 --> 00:23:40,480 And then you can reach out to also Security Labs. 314 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,820 We will be in Car Hacking Village booth. 315 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:48,380 So if you have any other questions that you want to get answered today, do reach out at Car Hacking Village. 316 00:23:48,580 --> 00:23:49,620 And thank you for attending. 317 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:57,720 And please, whoever hasn't collected their T-shirt, those two guys in the back in the pink, they should be able to get you your T-shirts. 318 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:58,640 Thanks, everyone.