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We'd like to give our attention to Chris Hadnagy. Does anybody not know Chris?

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Yeah, the one with the man crush raises his hand.

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I think most of my employees...

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Who are you?

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No, we certainly appreciate Chris here today, and just as a friend, I want to say he's a big guy, but he's got a big heart, and we all know that, don't we?

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So we appreciate all he's done for social engineering.

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As a 16 years experience as a practitioner and researcher in the security field, he certainly puts efforts forth in training, educating, and really helping to drive the awareness that social engineering is one of the top threats in the security industry.

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Let's give our attention to Chris Hadnagy. His theme is SE versus Predator, using SE in ways I never thought.

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Thanks, guys. Appreciate it.

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My voice is going as every DEF CON, as you know, so by the end of this talk, I'll sound like the Godfather.

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I'll be like, I'm going to send you an email you can't refuse.

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So, you know, we'll go with that.

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Okay, so my job is awesome and fun. It really is.

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And a lot of people ask me, is it really fun? And it is. Think about it.

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Every day, I get to hack people, and I get paid for it.

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And that's really cool.

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Oh, yeah, I didn't start my time.

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I have extra time.

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Anyhow, people ask all the time, how fun is it?

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You think about it. I get to send phishing emails every day.

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I get to vish people.

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I get to break into places and steal stuff.

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And it's all legal.

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That's kind of cool. I don't get to go to prison for it.

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I get tased a couple times once, but, you know, it's all fun.

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You know, you think about some of the things that I've got to do in my career.

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I got to break into over a dozen of places.

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I've sent over $15 million.

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Phishing emails in my career.

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All legal, by the way. Pretty cool.

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I've made thousands of phishing calls personally, and my team has made thousands in addition.

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I've got to write three, and I'm now going to announce I'm working on my fourth book as we speak right now.

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My first book is pretty dated, right?

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It's pretty dated, and it's got some bad information in it, like the whole chapter on NLP and my three Wikipedia references that made me a moron.

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So, those are going away, and I'm rewriting the book, and I'll just tell you now, this will go nowhere out of this room, right?

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It's going to be called Social Engineering, the Science of Human Hacking.

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And it will be out in early 2018, so I'm working on that now.

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And I get trolled by Dave Kennedy non-stop, which is fun, you know, I mean, kind of, maybe, no, not at all, but it looks like fun sometimes to the outside.

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And I get to travel the globe doing things like hacking people.

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And teaching, and meeting all sorts of cool people, and I've reconnected with so many students here at DEF CON.

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So, it's really a fun job, until it stopped being fun all of a sudden, because I did a little research that involved looking at how pictures had automatically embedded GPS data in them.

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And I started talking about that research publicly, and I couldn't get anybody interested in it until I met one reporter.

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Her name was Laurie Siegel.

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Actually, she's here.

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She's in the back right there.

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And she invited me to come on CNN, and we got to talk about a couple topics, and one of them was how these images are being leaked on the Internet, and that people are using them to geolocate women.

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They're being harassed.

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There's a slew of revenge porn that this was being involved in, and we got to do some really interesting research.

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And at the time, that's all it was for me.

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It was research.

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And I got this really cool time to go on.

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I got to go on the phone and talk with Laurie on CNN and be on national television talking about revenge porn.

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And at the time, again, it was still just research.

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And then things changed, because all of a sudden I got a lot of phone calls, and I got e-mails from women who were victims of revenge porn.

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And they were asking for help, and there was nothing I could do.

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There was absolutely nothing I could do, because to fix the problem, you have to hack someone else's computer, right?

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To prove that it was her ex-boyfriend or husband or whoever.

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That uploaded those images, I'd have to do something illegal.

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And it felt really bad.

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It felt really dirty, because here I am, these poor women, saw the news story, and there was nothing that can be done.

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So we started putting together some resources to help them, some information.

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We would give out, I had an e-mail that was kind of a template that would give them places they can call, places they can go to for help.

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But still, there really wasn't much relief.

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But it did give me some semblance of relief that we had something to help for.

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But it was a...

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Big eye-opener.

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Here I was, doing my job, doing the coolest things on the planet, I thought at least, and then reality hit, right?

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Reality where all of a sudden you're realizing that there's a lot of people out there that are being affected by these things in very negative ways.

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And as you can see here, there was just some real problems.

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And then I had another interesting thing occur.

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I had an organization call me, government employee.

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They saw the news story with Lori on geolocating pictures.

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And they wanted me to do something that I really didn't feel comfortable with.

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We all remember Ashley Madison, right?

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We all remember Ashley Madison.

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And Ashley Madison, you know, it's not a great site, of course, you know, unless you're into cheating on your spouse.

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But the thing about Ashley Madison that was difficult for me when it came out as a breach was that you didn't have to authenticate, right?

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So if you had an account on it, I could sign up in Ashley Madison with your account.

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There was no two-factor.

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There was no anything.

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You didn't get anything.

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You didn't get an email back saying, hey, did you really want to do this?

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You signed up.

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It was just you went there, you put an email in, you got an account.

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And then there was no proof that after you got the account that you actually did anything wrong.

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So we had a lot of companies that were calling saying, hey, can you scrape the breach data and see if our employees are there?

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And I was like, no, I don't really want to do that because it feels like unless you could prove that the person was doing something wrong, you know, why would we want to go on this witch hunt?

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And that's what it kind of felt like to me.

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It was like a witch hunt.

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So I kind of declined that.

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And then I had this one client come to us, and they said, look, we have a reason why we want you to do this, because we see some traffic on our network that was encrypted, and we think it goes to places that involve child pornography.

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So we just kind of want to see if we can look at the traffic at like the Ashley Madison dump and see if anyone in the organization has done that, then maybe out of their hundreds of thousands of employees that they had, instead of looking at all of them, focus just on those and see if they're doing something wrong.

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And I was like, no, I don't want to see if those people were doing anything else sketchy at work.

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So I did.

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I said, okay, you know what?

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That's a decent thing.

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I can think I can do that.

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So I scraped the data, and, man, we found it was thousands of employees that were on Ashley Madison.

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So, you know, I made a little database for them, handed it over, and said, you know, use this sparingly because you don't know, you know, again, I gave them the whole spiel that we just talked about here.

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And, lo and behold, there was an employee that they were able to target, and he was using his government-issued phone and devices to take videos of him raping children.

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Yeah, yeah, pretty sick stuff.

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And he was trafficking children in the Philippines.

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And Michelle and I were sitting at a restaurant in D.C. with the head guy while he was landing from one of his trips and being arrested.

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And that happened.

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That felt good because where is he now?

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That's where he is.

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That felt good, right?

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Not, of course, what happened.

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That felt horrible.

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But it felt good that there was something I did.

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I never, I mean, I'm just a hacker, right?

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I don't even have an education.

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I'm like, came out of high school, got kicked out of college for running a war dialer, you know?

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So I'm like, this doesn't even make sense.

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And now I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, wow, something I just did had a profound effect and maybe saved children.

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So that was a really, that was a really big deal for me.

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It was like kind of a pivotal moment in my life where my career started taking a turn.

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And I said, man, I can actually use these skills for something else, right?

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And then I got a phone call.

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Phone conversation went something like this, like, hey, can you help us catch a guy who's trafficking children?

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And I'm like, you don't really want me, right?

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Probably want the cops.

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You don't really want me.

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And they're like, well, we need to establish there's enough proof because the cops won't do anything.

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Until there's proof.

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So I said, okay, you know, maybe I can come and talk to you guys.

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So I went and I talked, I talked to this organization about helping out and

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come on, this was such a heavy topic.

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I had to add some humor here somewhere, right?

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Because we're all getting pretty somber, but yeah.

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So I thought, okay, you know, maybe I can do this again.

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Maybe I can use SC skills in a way that I never thought of using them.

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So I sat and I said, let's, let's come up with a game.

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And here was my game plan.

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We were going to do lots of OSINT on this guy, right?

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Because I wanted to feel before I did anything, I wanted to feel that there was some semblance

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of proof that this guy really was a child trafficker, that he was producing child pornography

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for sale.

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So I did lots of OSINT.

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Then I established my, my first plan was to establish that he had his first ticket, his

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plane ticket, and that it wasn't that his first one was a loan, but that a second ticket

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was coming back with two children.

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Okay.

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So that was the, that's what we had underway.

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And then I said, okay, I need to establish that that was a real fact that that actually

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happened.

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And then third, I wanted to obtain his home address.

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Now we had, of course, we had a bunch of other stuff going on in the background.

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So they were collecting data on what he was doing and trying to tie it to him.

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And then this was, this was my job.

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So that was the plan.

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Okay.

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Now, before I go on, I need to say I'm not a lawyer, but my lawyer said that what I'm

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about to do is okay.

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Okay.

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So I'm going to hope that they led me the right way, because I'm going to play you some

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altered phone calls of this exact case and the things that I got to do.

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Okay.

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So we're going to talk about it.

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So stage one.

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Oh, same.

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We doxed everything.

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I had this guy's family.

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Yeah.

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I know that's a great one, right?

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Research.

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Okay.

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So I had to establish everything.

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I needed to know his family history, where he, where he came from, because he wasn't

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from America.

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I needed to understand, but he was living in America at the time.

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So where he came from, the places he travels, where he likes to travel, his likes and dislikes,

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you know, and, and as disturbing as this is, when you do this work, you realize you got

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to actually look at them as a real person, right?

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They, when you, you, you got to take out the fact that what they're doing and you got

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to say, I need to understand that this guy may like the same music as me.

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He likes baseball.

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He may like the same things as me as hobbies outside of hurting children.

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He has hobbies.

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I need to understand those because depending on the attack vectors that we're going to,

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we're going to perform, I needed to know all of that.

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What businesses does he say he's a part of or what, where has he worked?

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Right?

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The licenses that he may have things like business licenses, other things.

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And then of course, any houses, apartments, property, and other things that, that he would

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own that we would then, um, you know, be able to obtain information on him.

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This is what we call profiling, right?

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So this helps us develop a profile on this target.

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So we have a target.

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We know all these things about him, and now we can say, here's, here's what we can utilize

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and all this information to, to target this person.

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After this was complete, you know, we had like dossiers.

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We can write a book on this guy.

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Then we moved to stage two.

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Stage two was calling airlines over and over and over again until we found someone that

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could confirm some things, which was confirmed that he had a flight.

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Give us the details of the flight.

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Okay.

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So what pretext did I use?

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Well, I developed a pretext that I was his assistant.

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I was his personal assistant and that I was verifying flight details because he had some

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very important guests.

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Flying in with him.

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And I needed to make sure because he had a messed up flight before he has a lot of stress

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and anxiety with the messed up flight.

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Now I need to, I need to stop for one second and say something about this call.

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You're going to hear, because I'm looking out in the audience.

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There's a ton of students that I've had in my classes here and what I'm about to play

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breaks the rules of what I've taught you in five days on the course.

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Okay.

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So this may seem a little.

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Hypocritical, but I want to explain first.

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Our mantra is leave them feeling better for having met you.

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Okay.

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That's our mantra in professional social engineering.

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We do not use fear-based or threat-based pretext ever in our work, but those rules go out the

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window when I'm dealing with pedophiles.

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Okay.

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I don't care how they feel at the end of the day.

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And I don't care if they feel scared with my pretext.

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So once I can establish the fact that I think this guy is legit, then those rules go out

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the window.

223
00:13:17,580 --> 00:13:20,500
Now that may be self-justification, but there you have it.

224
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:20,760
Okay.

225
00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:24,960
So after 20 calls, here's, here's what occurred.

226
00:13:25,060 --> 00:13:25,840
Let's listen to this.

227
00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:36,620
Hello, how can I help you?

228
00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:37,980
Hi.

229
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:39,280
Sorry.

230
00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:41,020
Sorry about crying in the background.

231
00:13:41,220 --> 00:13:42,360
My name is Paul.

232
00:13:43,260 --> 00:13:45,540
I'm a personal assistant for it.

233
00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:46,620
And.

234
00:13:46,940 --> 00:13:50,140
Very important guests flying in with him on your airline.

235
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:52,860
And we had so many problems on the flight out.

236
00:13:52,940 --> 00:13:56,700
I didn't need to confirm that the tickets are still active and that he has seats right

237
00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:57,520
next to each other.

238
00:13:57,620 --> 00:13:58,860
Can you help me with that please?

239
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,700
And again, just excuse the noise.

240
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:01,100
I'm sorry.

241
00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:04,520
I have a sick kid and I'm driving to the doctor and trying to take care of this now.

242
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,100
Oh, I'm really sorry to hear all that.

243
00:14:07,420 --> 00:14:10,880
Um, I will get your confirmation number to be able to help you.

244
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:12,480
Okay.

245
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:13,500
Um, I'm sorry.

246
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,280
I'm driving, but let me just see.

247
00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:16,920
He, um, my boss.

248
00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:20,520
Basically he just called me and chewed me out because normally I do all these checks

249
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,580
before he flies, but my kid's been super sick and I'm a single dad.

250
00:14:25,140 --> 00:14:27,460
So I don't, I think, I think he gave it to me.

251
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:28,880
I have a note here written down.

252
00:14:29,020 --> 00:14:31,280
Let me just see if this is it, but maybe an old one.

253
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,700
Is it a X, D, C, V, F, W.

254
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:36,460
I'm sorry.

255
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,200
No, that is a confirmation number, but it's not the right one.

256
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:41,400
Okay.

257
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,260
Um, let me see again.

258
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:43,920
I'm driving.

259
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:44,420
I'm sorry.

260
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:45,240
How about this?

261
00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:46,220
Can we look it up by his name?

262
00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:47,180
Yeah.

263
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:48,060
Let's try it.

264
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:48,900
Uh, what is his name?

265
00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:50,140
Okay.

266
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,020
Let me spell it for you.

267
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,120
Cause it's, it's a, it's, it's a hard name to spell.

268
00:14:57,740 --> 00:15:00,040
Um, yes, I do see a ticket in the system room.

269
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:02,100
Okay.

270
00:15:02,220 --> 00:15:02,620
Superb.

271
00:15:02,660 --> 00:15:10,400
Um, so what I need to confirm is that he's going from, and that there's two other tickets

272
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,980
that will be children that are booked with him.

273
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:13,820
Do you, do you see that?

274
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,540
Um, let me take a look.

275
00:15:16,540 --> 00:15:19,660
I, um, I'm not sure if I can tell you that.

276
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:20,280
Um.

277
00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:23,340
Oh, so I, I, I understand.

278
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,300
Like I said, I'm driving to the doctor and I have my kid.

279
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,180
I don't have all this information on me and he's really not happy.

280
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,420
And I don't know how your boss is, but when he gets upset, it can really be bad.

281
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,580
The flight out was delayed two hours and he missed the meeting.

282
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,440
So he was mad also because of that.

283
00:15:39,740 --> 00:15:44,180
I know, I know none of this is your problem, but I could just really, really use a break

284
00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:44,480
today.

285
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:45,660
Oh, okay.

286
00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:46,320
Hold on.

287
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:46,680
Hold on.

288
00:15:49,740 --> 00:16:01,540
Uh, okay, listen, um, I, I do see his tickets going from two on, uh, he does have two tickets

289
00:16:01,540 --> 00:16:03,300
and those seats are right next to him.

290
00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:04,140
So you don't have to worry about that.

291
00:16:04,420 --> 00:16:06,000
Do you want those confirmation numbers?

292
00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:08,900
Yeah, you are a lifesaver.

293
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,080
I would love to have them.

294
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:10,460
Thank you.

295
00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:11,660
Oh, no problem.

296
00:16:11,820 --> 00:16:13,380
Um, so hope your kid feels better.

297
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:14,200
They're, um.

298
00:16:14,780 --> 00:16:15,220
Okay.

299
00:16:15,860 --> 00:16:16,300
Okay.

300
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:21,560
I can't thank you enough.

301
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:23,000
You probably saved my job.

302
00:16:23,260 --> 00:16:25,780
And now if I need to call back, I'll have to go through all of that.

303
00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,220
So, um, look, I got to run to the doctor's office now, but, um, I can't just, man, you

304
00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:32,700
really, you gave me the break I needed today.

305
00:16:32,740 --> 00:16:33,580
Thank you so much.

306
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:34,780
Uh, no problem.

307
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:35,700
I'm glad you're in the home.

308
00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:36,460
Have a good day.

309
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:37,200
Thank you.

310
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:37,760
Okay.

311
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:40,280
So crying baby works, right?

312
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:41,240
Thanks.

313
00:16:41,780 --> 00:16:42,100
Thanks.

314
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,260
Crying baby works every time.

315
00:16:48,460 --> 00:16:49,920
I'm just telling you, right?

316
00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:52,920
You hear it and you automatically feel sad, right?

317
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,720
For especially single dad thing.

318
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:57,600
So, you know, again, student, student, student, I'm sorry.

319
00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,480
That breaks all the rules.

320
00:16:58,620 --> 00:16:58,820
Okay.

321
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,640
But, but we, we had to do it.

322
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:01,900
Okay.

323
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,480
Then when we established that he had these flights, I got confirmation numbers.

324
00:17:05,580 --> 00:17:09,080
I established that he had two children with him, um, on those return flights.

325
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,240
So now we just needed to get his home address.

326
00:17:11,420 --> 00:17:16,300
So what we did is, um, we, we knew through other OSINT, um, because he had a, you know,

327
00:17:16,300 --> 00:17:18,180
like a Facebook page where he posted normal things.

328
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:23,340
And when he traveled to make his travel appear normal, he would post pictures about his travels.

329
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,280
So we knew that he rented from a certain rental company.

330
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:32,120
Uh, so my, my pretext was going to be, let me get to that slide.

331
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:32,300
Yeah.

332
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:36,660
So my pretext was going to be that, uh, we did OSINT on, on the, on the area that he

333
00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:39,140
rented and we found a local pizza shop.

334
00:17:39,740 --> 00:17:45,180
So we got a pretext that, um, I'm calling from the pizza shop and that this guy left

335
00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:46,260
his iPad after.

336
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:51,520
He, after he ate lunch at my pizza shop and, um, and then what I wanted to do was

337
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:52,240
return it to him.

338
00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:56,680
So I'm going to try to get his home address from the rental car company so I can mail

339
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,560
him his, his, his iPad back.

340
00:17:58,940 --> 00:18:00,880
And, uh, we knew this was going to be difficult, right?

341
00:18:00,980 --> 00:18:04,080
Because I mean, man, you're calling a rental company and they're going to give you some,

342
00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:07,660
some strangers, some strangers, um, uh, address.

343
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,440
So again, I'm breaking another rule.

344
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:15,740
Students, I use, I use bribery of offer of free food, um, to the, to the target to,

345
00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:16,600
to get it.

346
00:18:16,620 --> 00:18:18,800
I'll give you the end of that in a minute once you hear the call.

347
00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:29,600
Hey there, this is, uh, Tony from Big Al's Pizza over on 5th.

348
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:31,040
I got a problem.

349
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:32,280
I hope you don't mind me missing it.

350
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:33,900
Oh, Big Al, I love your pizza.

351
00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:35,000
You guys can get off some pizza.

352
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:35,860
Hey, thanks.

353
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,320
I got lucky.

354
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,340
If you help me out, I, I swear there's going to be some free food in it for you, okay?

355
00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:45,140
Oh, man, I'll make, what can I do?

356
00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:46,960
I'm just kidding.

357
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:48,040
Two little girls.

358
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,820
I had a great lunch, paid cash, was showing me pictures of his dogs and his kids and the

359
00:18:52,820 --> 00:18:53,860
travels on his iPad.

360
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,440
He leaves and one of my gals goes to clean the table and his iPad's sitting there in

361
00:18:58,440 --> 00:18:58,800
the seat.

362
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,340
He left with a, with a budget rental agreement that's sitting in the iPad.

363
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,980
So we just figured that, you know, that's where he rented the car.

364
00:19:06,380 --> 00:19:08,960
I tried to get in, thing is passworded.

365
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:13,960
The rental agreement is like torn and wet, so I don't have a name on it, but I figured

366
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,280
I'd call you and see if I, you know, if I could get it.

367
00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:20,760
This happened yesterday, so it wasn't even today, but I got so swamped and it was sitting

368
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,100
on my desk, I figured I'll, I'll, I'll try it out.

369
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:29,500
Now, so I got his name from the rental agreement, but no address or anything, so I'm not sure.

370
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:30,020
What can we do?

371
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,920
Well, let me, let me see if you can return this car to me.

372
00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:36,180
I'm sure you can catch him and you can leave it here for pickup.

373
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:38,900
Okay, so let's, let's check.

374
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:40,120
That's a good idea.

375
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:41,400
His name is...

376
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:44,180
Ah, shucks, Tony.

377
00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:45,860
You already left and he returned the car.

378
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:46,280
What do you want?

379
00:19:48,180 --> 00:19:49,240
Oh, darn, man.

380
00:19:49,260 --> 00:19:51,040
Well, okay, so this iPad looks brand new.

381
00:19:51,140 --> 00:19:55,820
He's probably freaking out thinking he lost it somewhere and it's, it's passworded and

382
00:19:55,820 --> 00:19:59,300
locked up, so it's probably not even online, but I don't know.

383
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:00,940
How do I get this back to him?

384
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,900
Like, if I had his address, I could ship it to him.

385
00:20:03,260 --> 00:20:07,640
So what if I give it to you and you looked up his address and you ship it back?

386
00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:09,540
I'm sorry, man.

387
00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:12,660
We, we can't take responsibility for those items unless we find him in the car.

388
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:13,940
Let me think.

389
00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:19,260
Ah, so I'm not supposed to do this.

390
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,280
Chris, you're a genius.

391
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,880
Yeah, you know, I can definitely do that.

392
00:20:29,020 --> 00:20:29,960
I'll ship it out today.

393
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:30,860
What's the address, man?

394
00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:32,560
All right, all the kids, ah.

395
00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:37,160
You know what, Chris?

396
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:37,820
You're awesome.

397
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,920
This is going to be a $25 gift card for you here.

398
00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:43,200
I'm going to put it in your name, but what's your full name?

399
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,680
Oh, you seriously don't use that?

400
00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:45,860
What?

401
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:47,500
I love the pizza so much.

402
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,460
You know, I got this guy's iPad.

403
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:54,280
He had two beautiful kids with him.

404
00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:56,760
I think he's probably wondering where it is.

405
00:20:56,820 --> 00:20:58,300
Got all his business stuff on it.

406
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:01,280
So you just saved my day and you probably saved his day.

407
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:02,180
It's worth $25.

408
00:21:02,340 --> 00:21:02,600
Cool?

409
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:03,940
Thanks, Tony.

410
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:04,540
This is awesome.

411
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:06,480
No problem, man.

412
00:21:07,740 --> 00:21:12,020
So I called Big Dallas Pizza and I bought a $25 gift card.

413
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:24,460
Yeah, I don't want the kid going in there to get his gift card and be like, what the heck, you know?

414
00:21:24,780 --> 00:21:27,440
So I wanted them to be rewarded for his work.

415
00:21:27,540 --> 00:21:28,400
You know, he did help me out.

416
00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:30,340
So, you know, he gave me the guys.

417
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:33,720
He went in and I just, you know, I don't even know.

418
00:21:33,780 --> 00:21:34,300
I know the follow up.

419
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,360
I'm hoping he got the pizza and everything was good.

420
00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:39,640
You know, I called them and just said, look, some kid's going to come in.

421
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,680
We're giving them an award for a great job at work.

422
00:21:41,860 --> 00:21:42,800
His name is Chris.

423
00:21:42,980 --> 00:21:43,920
You know, last name.

424
00:21:44,180 --> 00:21:45,340
I want to pay with a card.

425
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:45,800
$25.

426
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,380
So, yeah, he got his pizza.

427
00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:52,860
So we handed over all that OSINT to the federal government.

428
00:21:53,060 --> 00:21:54,840
We handed over all the call data.

429
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,940
We handed over all his geolocation data that we had.

430
00:21:58,140 --> 00:22:00,040
We had handed over his proof of flights.

431
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,660
And that was enough for them to start an actual investigation into this guy.

432
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:07,560
So.

433
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,640
So that was rewarding and exhilarating.

434
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,020
But, you know, you can ask my wife.

435
00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:27,900
There was, like, many nights where I didn't sleep very well or at all because of the things

436
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:28,500
you're dealing with.

437
00:22:28,660 --> 00:22:31,020
And it took a dozen of hours and a lot of stress.

438
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,680
And it was not my job.

439
00:22:32,740 --> 00:22:33,020
Right.

440
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:37,300
So I'm still running the company, trying to keep my employees employed, you know, my

441
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:38,760
family happy while doing this.

442
00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:42,320
And that's when I started to think.

443
00:22:42,620 --> 00:22:43,520
That's when it hit me.

444
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:45,780
And I looked just like that gorilla when I had that.

445
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:46,100
This thought.

446
00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:51,580
I said, what if I can harvest talent from this amazing community that we have of people

447
00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:57,060
that are just so smart, way smarter than me and can do things that I can only dream of

448
00:22:57,060 --> 00:22:57,340
doing.

449
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:57,600
Right.

450
00:22:57,660 --> 00:23:00,800
There's a group of people downstairs right now hacking a car.

451
00:23:01,460 --> 00:23:01,900
Okay.

452
00:23:02,060 --> 00:23:07,860
The people in this community that are amazing that and we can build tools to track and

453
00:23:07,860 --> 00:23:12,360
uncover perpetrators, people who hurt children, people who trafficked children and spread

454
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:13,600
child pornography.

455
00:23:13,740 --> 00:23:15,700
And that's when it hit me that I needed to start.

456
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:15,880
Something.

457
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:16,540
So I did.

458
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,020
I started the Innocent Lives Foundation and it's an actual real foundation.

459
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,800
501 foundation that is being launched today.

460
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,680
As a matter of fact, here at DEF CON.

461
00:23:36,540 --> 00:23:38,020
So a little bit about it.

462
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:39,940
Here's our, our mission statement.

463
00:23:40,020 --> 00:23:44,460
I'll tell you the story of how it came about in a minute, but our, our goal is to unmask

464
00:23:44,460 --> 00:23:45,500
anonymous online.

465
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,560
Child predators to assist in bringing them to justice.

466
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:49,500
Now, what does this mean?

467
00:23:49,940 --> 00:23:52,060
Because we're not vigilantes, right?

468
00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:57,620
As much as I want to don a Batman outfit, which was really bad on me, you know, that

469
00:23:57,620 --> 00:23:57,980
tight.

470
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,000
No, I don't want the Cape because if I put it and don a bat and go beat these people,

471
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:03,860
it's not the goal.

472
00:24:03,940 --> 00:24:05,420
It's not the goal, right?

473
00:24:05,620 --> 00:24:11,620
We save more kids by turning all this information over to law enforcement and to working closely

474
00:24:11,620 --> 00:24:14,940
with law enforcement in order to, to have them brought to justice.

475
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,940
So what I did is I assembled a team of people that can help.

476
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:19,720
Okay.

477
00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:21,740
So I talked to Rob Barra.

478
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,280
When I put Iron Man, I don't mean that as the movie Iron Man.

479
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:26,920
This guy like runs Iron Man.

480
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:28,380
Like I eat pizza.

481
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:29,340
It's like unbelievable.

482
00:24:29,660 --> 00:24:33,300
Like this case, like he's the most in shape person I've ever met in my life.

483
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,040
I think he actually eats nails.

484
00:24:35,180 --> 00:24:35,620
Okay.

485
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:36,780
Ex army ranger.

486
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:43,320
And he's experienced in traffic and trapping traffickers.

487
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:44,640
It was a difficult.

488
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:45,940
Difficult sentence to say.

489
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:48,700
So he, he tracks human traffickers.

490
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,640
That's what he's done for many years after he exited the military.

491
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,720
Wonderful guy that has a lot of skill in this area.

492
00:24:55,060 --> 00:24:56,500
And then I talked to Tim Maloney.

493
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,960
He's not only my business lawyer, but he's also very heavily involved in the nonprofit

494
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:01,480
world.

495
00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:04,700
And I figured if we're going to do this, we kind of need a lawyer, right?

496
00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:06,180
Need a lawyer to help us out.

497
00:25:06,340 --> 00:25:08,360
And then I spoke to Neil Fallon.

498
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,020
If you don't know, Neil Fallon isn't get out.

499
00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:10,520
No, just kidding.

500
00:25:10,660 --> 00:25:11,900
That's the least thing or a clutch.

501
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,620
We've developed a friendship over the last few years.

502
00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:18,920
Uh, because, um, interestingly enough, I reached out to him to come on the podcast.

503
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,880
And, um, and at first he's like, who's this weirdo that has the title human hacker that

504
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:24,940
wants me to come on his podcast.

505
00:25:25,220 --> 00:25:26,100
And no joke.

506
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:26,800
This is how it happened.

507
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:34,960
He, he, he was releasing, um, um, earth rocker album and someone before like a month before

508
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,400
it's released, someone stole it and put it on the web.

509
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,460
So he calls me and he says, Hey, remember you wanted me to come on your podcast and

510
00:25:41,460 --> 00:25:42,100
make you a deal.

511
00:25:42,380 --> 00:25:44,280
Can you, can you track people?

512
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:45,780
Who steal stuff and put it on the web?

513
00:25:45,860 --> 00:25:47,680
And I'm like, yes.

514
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,720
So, so he gave me the site and literally within an hour and a half, we had this guy's home

515
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:56,020
address.

516
00:25:56,380 --> 00:25:57,680
We had his whole life story.

517
00:25:57,900 --> 00:25:59,140
We knew everything about him.

518
00:25:59,340 --> 00:26:03,720
So, and it ended up being, he was like some 20 year old kid that worked at the, uh, CD

519
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:09,300
factory in Germany that stole the CD and came home and pirated and put it on the web.

520
00:26:09,580 --> 00:26:12,920
So, you know, he was like, I want to know more about this.

521
00:26:12,940 --> 00:26:14,080
So we ended up hanging out.

522
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,960
A bunch of times and going and seeing him at his shows and stuff.

523
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,080
So I figured, you know, if you're going to do something like this, how cool would it

524
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,420
be to have someone like him with such a great name that can help bring awareness to it?

525
00:26:24,540 --> 00:26:29,380
So I called him and he says, okay, look, so remember the first time you reached out

526
00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:32,800
to me, it was really weird, but now you're like, you're asking me if I want to be part

527
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,160
of a foundation, that's going to trap child traffickers.

528
00:26:36,460 --> 00:26:40,360
Like he goes, do you realize every call you make to me is just really, really good.

529
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:41,340
It gets weirder.

530
00:26:41,460 --> 00:26:42,700
He's like, like what's next, man.

531
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:44,060
And I'm like, no, I'm just kidding.

532
00:26:44,060 --> 00:26:44,300
I swear.

533
00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:45,300
This is it after this.

534
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,340
I mean, it's like no more, nothing else can happen.

535
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,460
So right now this is our board.

536
00:26:50,180 --> 00:26:55,380
And, um, and we met, we met, um, over the last few months and came up with it with this

537
00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:55,580
plan.

538
00:26:55,740 --> 00:26:57,420
So this is how we want to do it, right?

539
00:26:57,500 --> 00:26:59,640
We're going to seek the assistance of the appropriate members.

540
00:26:59,740 --> 00:27:00,920
Now, these are the questions that come up.

541
00:27:00,980 --> 00:27:01,440
What does that mean?

542
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,740
Well, obviously we, I mean, I'm, I'm sure everybody in this room wants to help.

543
00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:10,080
Um, you know, you can't hear these kinds of things and not want to help, but we have

544
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,720
to be able to vet people and make sure that they're, you know, make sure that they're

545
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:13,840
legit.

546
00:27:14,220 --> 00:27:14,300
Right.

547
00:27:14,380 --> 00:27:19,380
Because the other thing that we are very aware of is that, um, you know, if you are not

548
00:27:19,380 --> 00:27:23,760
saying you saying a general thing, if, if anyone who is a child trafficker or a pedophile,

549
00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:27,560
they can look at that as, Hey, maybe I can help me find the sources.

550
00:27:27,940 --> 00:27:31,880
So we're going to be vetting people heavily, but we need the talent from this community

551
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,520
because without it, we can't, we can't succeed, right?

552
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,480
You guys can do things that normal humans can not do.

553
00:27:38,660 --> 00:27:39,060
Right.

554
00:27:39,180 --> 00:27:41,060
And it's amazing when you think about it.

555
00:27:41,220 --> 00:27:43,260
We want to create tools that will assist.

556
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,620
Uh, you know, there's a tool out there right now that somebody has put out there that if

557
00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:52,420
you're traveling, like for a hacker con, you can upload a picture of your hotel room and

558
00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:54,080
it, it catalogs it.

559
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:59,520
And then law enforcement could take a picture of a child who's being trafficked and run it

560
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:00,200
through this database.

561
00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:05,020
And it will correlate that data and tell law enforcement, which hotel it was taken in because

562
00:28:05,020 --> 00:28:08,760
hotels use certain type of carpeting, certain type of bedding, serpentine, certain type

563
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:09,200
of curtains.

564
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,160
That's an amazing tool, isn't it?

565
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,700
I mean, they caught child traffickers.

566
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,400
Just because people like you were uploading images to this database from their hotel rooms,

567
00:28:18,860 --> 00:28:19,280
you know?

568
00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:20,300
And that sounds like a weird request.

569
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:21,100
Like when you're traveling.

570
00:28:34,380 --> 00:28:35,400
Anyone know the name of it?

571
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:38,640
Such an amazing tool.

572
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:39,280
I forgot the name.

573
00:28:39,420 --> 00:28:40,200
I'm going to get the name.

574
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:40,940
It's going to be on the site.

575
00:28:41,020 --> 00:28:41,160
Okay.

576
00:28:41,260 --> 00:28:41,540
I will.

577
00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:43,020
I'm going to tweet it because I'm going to get it.

578
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:43,520
But.

579
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,800
There's tools like that that are out there for this purpose.

580
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:48,300
You know it?

581
00:28:48,420 --> 00:28:54,660
Yeah, it's trafficcam.com, but it's T-R-A-F-F-I-C-K.

582
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:56,440
Trafficcam.com.

583
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,000
That's when you upload the photos of your hotel room, right?

584
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,860
For a law enforcement database.

585
00:29:00,980 --> 00:29:01,720
I think that's the one.

586
00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:09,220
It's spelled T-R-A-F-F-I-C-K cam.com.

587
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:11,120
Okay.

588
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:11,940
I'll check.

589
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:13,040
We'll check it out after.

590
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:13,420
And I will.

591
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,260
Oh, here it is.

592
00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:16,540
Okay.

593
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:16,800
Yes.

594
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:17,320
This is it.

595
00:29:17,540 --> 00:29:18,240
This is it.

596
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:19,100
You hand me your phone.

597
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:19,500
Thank you.

598
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:20,860
It's called the Polaris.

599
00:29:21,060 --> 00:29:22,160
The Polaris Project.

600
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:22,960
Okay.

601
00:29:22,980 --> 00:29:23,580
This is the one.

602
00:29:23,740 --> 00:29:27,920
P-O-L-A-R-I-S project.org.

603
00:29:28,380 --> 00:29:29,100
This is the one.

604
00:29:29,140 --> 00:29:30,040
The name now.

605
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:30,780
This is it.

606
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,000
You upload a picture of your hotel room to the database on the website.

607
00:29:35,380 --> 00:29:37,880
And it puts it out there for law enforcement to be able to correlate.

608
00:29:38,180 --> 00:29:40,940
What I'm saying is how many of you didn't even know this existed before right now?

609
00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:42,100
Right?

610
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:43,260
So think about this.

611
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,380
We need to get that message out there.

612
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,940
We need to be able to build these kinds of tools to help law enforcement.

613
00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:54,860
We need to be able to collectively spread the word about that because we can all make

614
00:29:54,860 --> 00:29:56,300
a difference when it comes to this.

615
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,040
So how else will we do it?

616
00:29:58,300 --> 00:30:00,920
Well, we're going to use open source because we're not...

617
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:02,740
I need to stay above the law, right?

618
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,060
I still have a business and a family and my own kids I have to protect.

619
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,080
So I'm not looking for people who want to hack into things illegally.

620
00:30:10,660 --> 00:30:12,640
We need to do this all above the board.

621
00:30:12,740 --> 00:30:13,000
Because...

622
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,560
It's not just TV life.

623
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,420
You know, criminals get off because of a mess up.

624
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,700
On one thing, a criminal can get off.

625
00:30:19,780 --> 00:30:23,700
So if we do anything illegal, it can make the whole case nullified.

626
00:30:24,020 --> 00:30:27,980
So we have to be able to say that the things that we're doing are above board.

627
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,100
And we're going to use OSINT to do that.

628
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,000
And then we're going to establish, and we already have established,

629
00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:36,400
numerous relationships with law enforcement agencies.

630
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:40,740
To be clear, we are not agents of any state agency.

631
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:41,980
That is not the case, right?

632
00:30:42,140 --> 00:30:42,860
We are not...

633
00:30:42,860 --> 00:30:43,500
Law enforcement.

634
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,580
But working closely with law enforcement.

635
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:54,400
Shortly before DEFCON, I uncovered 51,000 child erotica images on the open web.

636
00:30:55,260 --> 00:30:57,880
51,000 child erotica images.

637
00:30:58,220 --> 00:30:58,980
That can...

638
00:30:58,980 --> 00:31:00,020
Nothing can be done about it.

639
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:00,920
Want to know why?

640
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,740
Because child erotica is not illegal.

641
00:31:03,580 --> 00:31:08,200
As long as they're not showing the lower genitals of a child, it doesn't matter.

642
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,320
Isn't that disgusting?

643
00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:12,580
And yet, these images all...

644
00:31:12,860 --> 00:31:16,960
And yet, these images all lead to paste bin sites where they were selling the videos of those

645
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:17,900
child being raped.

646
00:31:18,620 --> 00:31:20,460
51,000 images, right?

647
00:31:20,660 --> 00:31:23,760
So we work closely with law enforcement to get those things out there.

648
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:30,180
So we can hopefully even make just a tiny, small, little dent, okay?

649
00:31:30,260 --> 00:31:32,580
So about the org, and then we can talk.

650
00:31:32,940 --> 00:31:37,480
That's the foundation website, InnocentLivesFoundation.org.

651
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:38,840
That's our Twitter account.

652
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,580
And we're going to be, of course, just reaching out to the community.

653
00:31:43,060 --> 00:31:46,180
Asking for help in multiple ways about how we can do this.

654
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,600
So I left a lot of time because I wanted to just kind of open it up and see what you guys thought

655
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,020
and be able to answer any questions you have.

656
00:31:54,220 --> 00:31:56,360
And also, it's a really heavy topic.

657
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:57,440
So I didn't...

658
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:58,440
You guys are so quiet.

659
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,620
I haven't had the room this quiet like in decades.

660
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:01,700
Yes, sir.

661
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:07,700
Do you have a framework or are you going to develop a framework to liaise with the law

662
00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:09,600
enforcement in various states, cities?

663
00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:10,820
Yeah, that's a good question.

664
00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:12,840
So the question was, do we have a framework for...

665
00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:15,660
For creating those relationships with law enforcement?

666
00:32:15,860 --> 00:32:17,300
So this is all new for me.

667
00:32:17,380 --> 00:32:17,800
So my...

668
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,420
Our present relationships with law enforcement have come about somewhat by accident.

669
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:27,960
I do a lot of training when it comes for a social engineering with the U.S.

670
00:32:28,020 --> 00:32:30,020
government and law enforcement agencies.

671
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,860
So a lot of those relationships have led me to say, hey, you know, can you help me out?

672
00:32:34,940 --> 00:32:36,400
Like, who would I talk to about this?

673
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:42,160
And I've gotten in with some of the federal agencies to be able to work out those relationships.

674
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,700
So I would not call that a framework because in my mind, a framework would be a definite

675
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:48,960
process for how to do this properly.

676
00:32:49,780 --> 00:32:57,300
So yes, Rob Barrow, the one I put up there, he's the COO of the foundation, and his job

677
00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:02,660
is to help us develop those processes and also the vetting process so that way we handle

678
00:33:02,660 --> 00:33:06,740
both the volunteers as well as the handoff of law enforcement properly.

679
00:33:07,060 --> 00:33:07,660
So yes.

680
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:08,200
Yes, ma'am.

681
00:33:08,620 --> 00:33:10,880
Is it a foundation or is it a final one?

682
00:33:10,980 --> 00:33:11,480
Is it a...

683
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,140
Is it a foundation or is it a final one?

684
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,780
That's a great question, and there is a difference, which I did not understand.

685
00:33:15,980 --> 00:33:17,300
It is a 501 .

686
00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:23,860
That is what the application has gone into the federal government, and I did get clarification

687
00:33:23,860 --> 00:33:27,580
after we did all this that a foundation is normally like some kind of family fund type

688
00:33:27,580 --> 00:33:27,980
of thing.

689
00:33:28,180 --> 00:33:30,320
So it's...

690
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,640
But it is a 501, a legit 501 .

691
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,000
And we...

692
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,620
The application has been accepted.

693
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:41,680
You know, we're waiting for the final approval papers from the IRS, and then, you know, it's

694
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:42,860
all go time from there.

695
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:43,740
Yes, sir.

696
00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:46,000
How's your interaction with law enforcement so far?

697
00:33:46,140 --> 00:33:47,120
How's your reaction to this?

698
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:47,640
Yeah.

699
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:52,460
So the question was, how has law enforcement reacted to this so far?

700
00:33:52,740 --> 00:33:58,180
So you can kind of imagine the first phone call that I had with law enforcement didn't

701
00:33:58,180 --> 00:34:01,760
go so well because they were like, so you want to do what?

702
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,440
And you're, you know...

703
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,140
So here's what happened is I found a...

704
00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:07,420
And it really was by mistake.

705
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:11,160
I'm working a case of a father.

706
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,420
Who has taken by force his daughter away from the mother and somehow has manipulated

707
00:34:16,420 --> 00:34:17,180
the courts.

708
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,900
So he has won every full custody of her.

709
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,380
And the girl has alleged being molested by him.

710
00:34:24,820 --> 00:34:26,780
And the courts are still doing nothing.

711
00:34:27,020 --> 00:34:33,740
And in doing research into her name, which was she there, the father's name is Russian.

712
00:34:34,060 --> 00:34:40,020
And doing research into his name, I came across some paste bins and I thought, oh man, maybe

713
00:34:40,020 --> 00:34:41,660
this is some proof of this.

714
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:42,640
Of this stuff happening.

715
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,580
And that led me to some really, really dark stuff.

716
00:34:45,780 --> 00:34:47,740
I mean, some really bad things.

717
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,260
So I called after the first few initial calls.

718
00:34:51,380 --> 00:34:55,180
I called back that contact and said, hey, I have something that may be interest of you.

719
00:34:55,380 --> 00:35:00,560
And soon as I handed over actionable intel, now I'm their best friend.

720
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:02,040
So it went...

721
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,300
And it wasn't planned, right?

722
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:04,680
I mean, obviously it can't be planned.

723
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,480
But at first they were like, I wonder who, you know, who this guy is.

724
00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:11,300
You know, I'm emailing them because I didn't have the...

725
00:35:11,660 --> 00:35:13,200
The org at the time.

726
00:35:13,340 --> 00:35:16,180
And I'm emailing them from social-engineer.com, you know.

727
00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:18,140
So, you know, it looks a little weird.

728
00:35:18,380 --> 00:35:20,960
And now we have a very...

729
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,500
I mean, honestly, this guy probably calls me once a week and we talk about stuff.

730
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:26,340
And he...

731
00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:29,580
One of the agents I'm in touch with, he specializes in revenge porn.

732
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:32,200
So I've been talking about that.

733
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:36,000
And another agent, the group of them specialize in crimes against children.

734
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,420
So I've gotten some good traction with that, but it started off really rough.

735
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,180
It's a great question though.

736
00:35:42,620 --> 00:35:43,920
Let me go back here.

737
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:45,700
I don't want to look at you because you'll make me cry.

738
00:35:45,980 --> 00:35:46,380
Okay.

739
00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:48,300
That's my daughter.

740
00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:49,340
Yeah.

741
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,700
Do you work with state law enforcement or state agencies?

742
00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:53,060
Yeah, you know, I want to.

743
00:35:53,180 --> 00:35:55,360
So I have one state agency right now that I met with.

744
00:35:55,700 --> 00:36:03,020
And I had another one approach me here that heard through the grapevine about this and said,

745
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,800
would you be interested in working with local state?

746
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,420
Yes, I do want to because I think a lot of times that these problems will exist on a local,

747
00:36:11,660 --> 00:36:15,960
local level, and it will be easier to get local law enforcement involved as opposed to state,

748
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,420
state law enforcement.

749
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:20,680
Yes.

750
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,220
How can we know that the traffic can?

751
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:28,720
That, that website?

752
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,260
Okay, that's a good question.

753
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,180
Well, you're not, they're not asking you to upload a picture of you in the hotel room.

754
00:36:33,460 --> 00:36:36,320
So it's not like go lay on your bed and upload a picture.

755
00:36:36,620 --> 00:36:39,720
So that's a different website, honey.

756
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:40,940
That's a different website.

757
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:41,320
Okay.

758
00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:45,480
And if you upload any pictures of you anywhere, I will kill the internet.

759
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:45,940
Okay.

760
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:51,200
So that's how it's safe.

761
00:36:51,420 --> 00:36:51,660
Okay.

762
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,040
The Polaris project is the one that Paul found.

763
00:36:59,140 --> 00:36:59,900
That's the, that's the one.

764
00:37:00,020 --> 00:37:02,980
That's a legit project that was made by someone in this community.

765
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:04,140
It's, it's, it's amazing.

766
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:05,480
And it's backed by law enforcement.

767
00:37:08,020 --> 00:37:11,220
Well, no, the pictures are uploaded anonymously and your

768
00:37:11,220 --> 00:37:12,280
name is not tagged to it.

769
00:37:13,780 --> 00:37:14,180
Yes.

770
00:37:14,460 --> 00:37:16,200
How are you protecting yourself when you do this?

771
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:19,560
Because you're about to be on a stage where you're going to be spaced out on the street for a little bit.

772
00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:19,900
Yeah.

773
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,800
And that's sort of an installment problem wherever you're working.

774
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:23,400
Yeah.

775
00:37:23,460 --> 00:37:25,080
So the question is, how am I protecting myself?

776
00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:28,520
And I'm assuming you're meaning from a, an internet perspective.

777
00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:29,500
Yeah.

778
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:30,720
Yeah.

779
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:39,560
So from an internet perspective, it's, it's, it's a, a lot of VPNs that don't come back to me.

780
00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:40,500
And,

781
00:37:41,220 --> 00:37:48,040
a lot of VPNs and machines that I don't leave laying around for my children to use.

782
00:37:48,580 --> 00:37:48,900
Yeah.

783
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,480
That's, that's basically it for now, sir.

784
00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:54,820
Are you then also doing that?

785
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,460
Clearly some agencies in the government have the ability to break things like

786
00:38:00,460 --> 00:38:04,820
for another thing and you would never want to get rolled up into one of those.

787
00:38:04,860 --> 00:38:05,100
Correct.

788
00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:06,660
Investigations.

789
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,640
So are you making them aware when you are participating in these?

790
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:11,200
No.

791
00:38:11,220 --> 00:38:12,420
That's a really good question.

792
00:38:12,540 --> 00:38:16,100
So to be clear, it's like, we're not going out on the internet and typing in,

793
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,240
give me child porn and then looking for, for, you know, those people that are, that are doing it.

794
00:38:21,500 --> 00:38:25,740
And then, and then, you know, that's not the process that we're following.

795
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,560
So a lot of times it comes from an example, that case I'm working now where this father

796
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:35,600
took the daughter and there's an alleged child abuse allegation.

797
00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:39,000
And he is known for sex crimes against children.

798
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,140
Now we will take that name.

799
00:38:41,220 --> 00:38:43,980
And look and try to uncover what he's doing online.

800
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:51,040
In the case of the child erotic images, we now have a list of usernames from those sites,

801
00:38:51,140 --> 00:38:55,040
and we'll see if we can correlate them to real people in the real world.

802
00:38:55,180 --> 00:38:55,380
Right.

803
00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:02,060
So down the road, what I hope is that there will be more collaboration for

804
00:39:02,060 --> 00:39:03,860
protection of what you're talking about.

805
00:39:04,060 --> 00:39:04,940
That's what I hope.

806
00:39:05,140 --> 00:39:08,920
I just want to make sure nobody here thought that running out on our own.

807
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,320
Bad idea.

808
00:39:10,700 --> 00:39:11,160
Yeah.

809
00:39:11,220 --> 00:39:12,880
Do not try this at home.

810
00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:15,660
Yes, sir.

811
00:39:29,220 --> 00:39:30,100
Thank you.

812
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,120
I don't, I don't know.

813
00:39:33,260 --> 00:39:34,440
I really suck at that.

814
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:35,720
Yeah.

815
00:39:35,820 --> 00:39:36,100
Okay.

816
00:39:37,060 --> 00:39:37,500
Okay.

817
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:38,720
Talk to me afterward.

818
00:39:38,860 --> 00:39:40,980
I, I, you know, here's the thing is like it.

819
00:39:41,220 --> 00:39:45,460
Literally the, the way this came about was, was just that it was like, I got done with that job

820
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,700
and I was so stressed, but it was, there was so much exhilaration from the fact that he's off

821
00:39:51,220 --> 00:39:51,720
the streets.

822
00:39:51,860 --> 00:39:57,360
He's no longer trafficking children into this country for the purposes of sex and pornography.

823
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:02,580
And I'm like, I want to not do it ever again, but how do I not do it now that I know it exists?

824
00:40:03,780 --> 00:40:06,060
And and that, that hit me.

825
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:10,860
So I said, I need to have help, but I didn't think about how are we going to market it?

826
00:40:11,220 --> 00:40:16,300
It was like, well, these 400 people know they'll tell 400 people.

827
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:21,380
And then maybe in 18 years, it will become something, you know, I don't know.

828
00:40:21,420 --> 00:40:22,600
I'd love to talk to you about that.

829
00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:23,060
Okay.

830
00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:23,900
Yes.

831
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,560
Boy, there's so many hands, sir.

832
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:30,280
Yeah.

833
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,640
So that you go to that website and you, you you'll put, and right now it's, it is literally

834
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,640
like, like two pages, you know, it's, it's the.

835
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:41,200
Yeah.

836
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,140
It's, it's the information about who we are, like what you heard here.

837
00:40:44,260 --> 00:40:47,500
And there's a contact page and there is a donation page.

838
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,840
If you want to contact you do that, that will come directly to us.

839
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,740
And then we will reach out and talk about how we go through vetting and, and get people

840
00:40:54,740 --> 00:40:55,120
involved.

841
00:40:55,740 --> 00:40:56,060
Okay.

842
00:40:56,140 --> 00:40:57,300
Now we'll be on the contact page.

843
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:58,980
Thank you for that, sir.

844
00:40:59,620 --> 00:40:59,940
Yeah.

845
00:41:00,020 --> 00:41:01,840
So you mentioned the donations.

846
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:04,240
So how is this going to primarily be financed?

847
00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:07,160
Will it be donation based or will it be something else?

848
00:41:07,380 --> 00:41:09,660
There'll be nothing else that I, that I have any ideas of yet.

849
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:10,980
Right now it will be donation based.

850
00:41:10,980 --> 00:41:17,820
And it's, and it's, it's, it's free time on my part until, you know, that, that's it.

851
00:41:17,860 --> 00:41:17,960
Yeah.

852
00:41:18,060 --> 00:41:22,400
I mean, right now it's all been me and, and Rob has been helping out.

853
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,640
You know, it's, it's the donations are going to go towards not me because I have a job.

854
00:41:27,780 --> 00:41:31,960
The donations are going to go towards helping hire people to build tools.

855
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,300
Let me, let me tell you why that's a really good question.

856
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,740
And I guess I should have explained this better.

857
00:41:36,020 --> 00:41:39,900
I had a moment at a time where we needed help on something and it was something I could

858
00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:40,360
not do.

859
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,200
My technical capabilities were not there.

860
00:41:42,380 --> 00:41:44,420
And I called a really good friend in the industry.

861
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,560
And I said, Hey, can you help me do X, Y, Z?

862
00:41:47,140 --> 00:41:49,420
And he said, yeah, I can do it this week.

863
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,280
I'm heading out of town to do a red team job.

864
00:41:51,580 --> 00:41:53,340
Can I, can I call you next week?

865
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:54,100
I said, no problem.

866
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,540
And next week came and I called him and he's like, dude, I came back with the flu.

867
00:41:57,720 --> 00:41:59,560
I can't even touch a keyboard this week.

868
00:41:59,820 --> 00:42:00,140
Okay.

869
00:42:00,220 --> 00:42:00,880
Next week.

870
00:42:01,420 --> 00:42:04,540
My boss sent me on another job because I was out for a week and literally just went on

871
00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:08,840
for like three months at the point where it no longer, the data was no longer useful.

872
00:42:09,260 --> 00:42:10,260
And I said, you know what?

873
00:42:10,260 --> 00:42:12,560
Though, if I could have said to him, you know what?

874
00:42:12,580 --> 00:42:16,780
Here's three grand that your, your hourly rate, whatever it is, it's 200 bucks an hour.

875
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:18,020
I need you for 15 hours.

876
00:42:18,420 --> 00:42:20,200
Here's three grand do this project.

877
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,080
Then I could have got that because he wouldn't have been taking, he could have went to his

878
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,500
boss and said, Hey, this guy wants to contract me.

879
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:27,860
You know, you cool with that.

880
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,760
And I could have got his time paid for.

881
00:42:29,980 --> 00:42:31,480
And that's where the donation is going to go.

882
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:32,280
We want to build a tool.

883
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,720
We want to contact Polaris and say, Hey, let's partner, let's get you on the site,

884
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:36,000
whatever.

885
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,200
Maybe another tool like that.

886
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,700
That's where the money's going to go is towards that.

887
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:40,240
Yeah.

888
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:44,340
And then if we need to hire staff, because it actually becomes something that I hope

889
00:42:44,340 --> 00:42:46,700
it will, then that's where it will go.

890
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:48,840
So that's the plan for it.

891
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:49,900
I should have explained that better.

892
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:51,960
So I really do appreciate you, you asking.

893
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:52,800
Yeah.

894
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:53,560
Thank you, sir.

895
00:42:56,780 --> 00:43:08,300
No, that's a good question.

896
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,140
The only way we become an agent of law enforcement.

897
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,000
If law enforcement asks me to do it.

898
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:13,260
Oh yeah.

899
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:16,100
Law enforcement is not asking us to do this, right?

900
00:43:16,220 --> 00:43:21,020
So, um, agent of law for me, if the FBI came and said, Hey, can you go crack, you know,

901
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:25,020
crack into this guy's life and see who he is, uh, then we would be an agent of law

902
00:43:25,020 --> 00:43:28,380
enforcement, but I don't foresee law enforcement doing that.

903
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,200
If someone here is law enforcement and you want to do that and talk to me about it, talk

904
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:34,320
to me about it, please.

905
00:43:34,540 --> 00:43:37,680
But that, that is not something that I think is going to happen anytime soon.

906
00:43:38,020 --> 00:43:38,380
Okay.

907
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,640
Just we'll go along the line.

908
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:40,000
Yes, sir.

909
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,980
So it's a lot of just normal OSINT SE tools, right?

910
00:43:51,060 --> 00:43:54,340
So what we did in those jobs, I use a lot of Maltego.

911
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,300
If you don't know Maltego, I don't know if those guys are still here, but you should

912
00:43:57,300 --> 00:43:57,920
talk to the guys.

913
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:03,200
Maltego is like my, like if I was on a deserted island, that's what I would bring is Maltego

914
00:44:03,940 --> 00:44:04,880
and my wife.

915
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:05,500
Okay.

916
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,260
But I bring Maltego, right?

917
00:44:07,380 --> 00:44:07,660
Okay.

918
00:44:08,140 --> 00:44:08,920
I love you, honey.

919
00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:09,420
But.

920
00:44:09,420 --> 00:44:10,460
I really would bring Maltego.

921
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:11,140
It's awesome, right?

922
00:44:11,340 --> 00:44:12,100
So it's just open.

923
00:44:12,180 --> 00:44:17,940
It's like Google dorking, Maltego, and then the many, many, I'll tell you who's amazing

924
00:44:17,940 --> 00:44:21,440
is Michael Basil's site, inteltechniques.com.

925
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:28,420
He just put together a slew of search engines that just rip open the internet on all open

926
00:44:28,420 --> 00:44:29,060
source stuff.

927
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:29,940
That's amazing.

928
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:35,940
And there's even some really good dark web search engines out there now, believe it or

929
00:44:35,940 --> 00:44:36,100
not.

930
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,500
So that, those are the things that we're utilizing.

931
00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:39,400
Okay.

932
00:44:40,140 --> 00:44:40,780
Terry.

933
00:44:40,940 --> 00:44:42,140
Asking for a friend.

934
00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:43,460
How are you?

935
00:44:44,060 --> 00:44:45,500
Oh, no, really?

936
00:44:45,700 --> 00:44:46,480
This is a dirty pool.

937
00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:57,260
So when you're doing these things and you're stumbling across the horrible things that

938
00:44:57,260 --> 00:45:04,960
you're hitting that you're inevitably going to find, how are you protecting yourself from

939
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:05,840
legal action?

940
00:45:06,220 --> 00:45:06,860
As.

941
00:45:09,180 --> 00:45:14,840
I mean, how do you prevent or how are you protecting yourself from looking like a perpetrator

942
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,100
instead of one of the good guys looking for it?

943
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:21,340
Yeah, that's where the relationships with law enforcement comes in.

944
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,880
So the question was, how do I not look like one of the bad guys, right?

945
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,040
To law enforcement, I'm assuming is what you're asking.

946
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:33,780
That's where working with law enforcement closely comes in to protect that, right?

947
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,440
So letting them know what we're doing ahead of time.

948
00:45:36,860 --> 00:45:39,940
Working with them and saying, this is where we're, you know, this is what we're looking

949
00:45:39,940 --> 00:45:40,200
for.

950
00:45:40,260 --> 00:45:41,300
This is who we're looking for.

951
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:47,200
The people that will work with the organization will be known by our contacts in law enforcement.

952
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:49,520
You know, there's, there's a whole process for that.

953
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,440
So we don't end up on the bad side of that.

954
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,760
And, and just to be clear, you know, cause there is a, there has been some research about

955
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,340
people who generally work in children against crimes units on the internet.

956
00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:02,400
They don't last very long.

957
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,740
And that's because eight hours a day, they're spending looking at that crap and you can't,

958
00:46:06,740 --> 00:46:08,640
I don't think a human brain was meant to do it.

959
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,340
If, if you're not, if you're not a pervert, right?

960
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,920
If you're not a deviant, um, and, and we won't ever, that's not going to be the case.

961
00:46:16,020 --> 00:46:18,340
That's not the, that's not as the goal, right?

962
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:19,240
Of, of doing that.

963
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:24,060
It is to uncover people who are selling it and traffic it, not to find the child porn,

964
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:24,840
right?

965
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,380
As it is, is to uncover the people who are making money from it or who are conducting

966
00:46:29,380 --> 00:46:30,960
business in doing that.

967
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,260
So that, those are the people that we're hunting.

968
00:46:34,740 --> 00:46:35,100
Yes.

969
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:43,300
I'm schizophrenic already.

970
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:43,980
No, I'm just kidding.

971
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:47,440
Um, so that's actually a very, a very good question.

972
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,940
So you have to, you really do have, I think with any work you have to temper yourself,

973
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:52,760
right?

974
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:53,500
And you can't.

975
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:59,620
So for me, like with that one, that one case that I talked about, um, you know, my daughter

976
00:46:59,620 --> 00:47:03,540
doesn't know this, but there was one point at night where I just went upstairs and I

977
00:47:03,540 --> 00:47:06,220
just crawled up next to her and just hugged her for an hour.

978
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:06,720
And she's like, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

979
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:07,180
you're being weird.

980
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:11,340
And I'm like, I know, but just let me hug you for a minute.

981
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,000
You know, let me just lay here and hug you.

982
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:14,480
And I do.

983
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:19,700
And, um, you know, this is not the purpose of the speech, but you ask, um, I, I have

984
00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:21,140
a very heavy belief in God.

985
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:26,840
So I spent a lot of time, um, after these things, like making sure that I fill my mind

986
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:32,060
with better thoughts, things like the Bible and other things that will help me, uh, balance

987
00:47:32,060 --> 00:47:33,660
the garbage out of there.

988
00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:36,160
So, you know, everyone has their own methodology.

989
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:38,280
That is mine, sir.

990
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:41,000
Yeah.

991
00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:45,260
Um, I haven't, I don't know.

992
00:47:45,380 --> 00:47:48,880
I I've heard recently about these, um, about these things.

993
00:47:48,940 --> 00:47:52,260
And I also, and here's something that I have used is, oh, I'm sorry.

994
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:52,540
Yes.

995
00:47:52,660 --> 00:47:55,880
Um, he asked if there's software out there that, that will block.

996
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:59,720
Like that was just a, it sees that there's skin in an image and it blocks it.

997
00:47:59,980 --> 00:48:00,820
So yeah.

998
00:48:01,540 --> 00:48:01,900
Yeah.

999
00:48:02,020 --> 00:48:02,900
But there's a, you know what?

1000
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,180
Um, yeah, that sounds like a really shady site.

1001
00:48:05,380 --> 00:48:06,640
You want to block skin.

1002
00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:09,420
Go to hot dog, hot dog, hot, hot dog.com.

1003
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:11,880
Yeah, no, no.

1004
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:12,840
Don't listen to that guy.

1005
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:13,120
Okay.

1006
00:48:13,380 --> 00:48:18,380
But, um, but what, um, um, what there's, there's text based browsers, right?

1007
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:21,580
Where you can disable all images like the Tor browser itself.

1008
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:22,860
You could say disable images.

1009
00:48:23,140 --> 00:48:27,080
And I've done that numerous times where, cause you know, there's usually a description

1010
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,200
in the image or under the image and you can block the image.

1011
00:48:30,260 --> 00:48:30,880
You don't have to see it.

1012
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:32,940
So the image doesn't load on your computer.

1013
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,620
All you do is get the text, you know, what's there, but you, you have the URL.

1014
00:48:36,620 --> 00:48:38,180
You have that, but you don't need to see the image.

1015
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,380
I've done that numerous times when I know what I'm going to, right?

1016
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:46,160
Um, so that, that guy behind you had his hand up for a million years.

1017
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,020
You have no blood circulation in your hand.

1018
00:48:48,180 --> 00:48:51,500
You're just worried about me dragging the tours of witness or having to testify to

1019
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:52,440
how you've gathered up.

1020
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,500
You're going to want to come up with some procedures.

1021
00:48:54,780 --> 00:48:57,620
And if you have people working for you, you're going to want to try and protect them as

1022
00:48:57,620 --> 00:48:57,900
well.

1023
00:48:57,980 --> 00:48:58,300
Yeah.

1024
00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:58,720
Be careful.

1025
00:48:59,060 --> 00:48:59,420
Yeah.

1026
00:48:59,500 --> 00:49:00,720
I'm open to advice.

1027
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:02,460
So I appreciate it.

1028
00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:03,180
Thank you for that.

1029
00:49:03,580 --> 00:49:03,940
Hisham.

1030
00:49:04,620 --> 00:49:06,040
Um, I have a quick question.

1031
00:49:06,180 --> 00:49:06,600
How are you?

1032
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:18,840
Well, um, for right now, we don't have any plans on, on geo on, on limiting geo location

1033
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,120
because these people generally don't just stay in the U S right.

1034
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:24,600
Yeah.

1035
00:49:24,740 --> 00:49:26,560
Language support will be a big thing, sir.

1036
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:36,480
I would hope so.

1037
00:49:36,900 --> 00:49:39,940
That's one of the things, the strength of this community, you look at something like

1038
00:49:39,940 --> 00:49:43,720
set set was made literally over a glass of whiskey between Dave and I.

1039
00:49:44,260 --> 00:49:45,960
I called him like, I got this cool idea.

1040
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:46,860
Can you do it?

1041
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:47,560
He's like, I could do that.

1042
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:48,060
No problem.

1043
00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:48,360
Bam.

1044
00:49:48,460 --> 00:49:49,480
I'm literally, it was like an hour later.

1045
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,480
He sent me a Python script that was set zero zero one or 0.0.

1046
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:54,220
It was like amazing.

1047
00:49:54,340 --> 00:49:54,540
Right.

1048
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,040
And I'm like, wow, that's, that's crazy.

1049
00:49:57,160 --> 00:49:59,000
Like you, you just put that together.

1050
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,260
Now we can fish people and I don't have to go buy a tool.

1051
00:50:01,540 --> 00:50:05,720
And then it went from that to what it is today, which is like the most ridiculous thing ever.

1052
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:05,940
Right.

1053
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:06,500
It's like a whole.

1054
00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:07,220
A whole suite of tools.

1055
00:50:07,780 --> 00:50:10,420
That's the, and now he has a team of people working on it.

1056
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:10,900
Open source.

1057
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:14,260
That's the goal is to have this community help do that kind of stuff.

1058
00:50:14,420 --> 00:50:14,820
Yes, ma'am.

1059
00:50:15,180 --> 00:50:17,700
Are you thinking about how to screen volunteers?

1060
00:50:18,020 --> 00:50:18,740
Yes, yes.

1061
00:50:20,180 --> 00:50:21,420
That process is already.

1062
00:50:21,620 --> 00:50:26,620
So, um, and we'll, we'll, we'll give more detail to any volunteers, but that's a, it's a good point.

1063
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,740
Um, we will be, um, vetting them all through our own.

1064
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:35,680
Like we have access to PI databases and stuff legitimately, and we will be running all names

1065
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:36,480
through our federal.

1066
00:50:37,180 --> 00:50:42,100
And if they come back with, and this is before anyone even gets anything, uh, for work, you know,

1067
00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:43,560
that, that will be, that will be the case.

1068
00:50:43,660 --> 00:50:44,600
So that way we will not be.

1069
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:50,640
Hopefully, I mean, you know, of course it's not a hundred percent and, um, we are going to reach

1070
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,800
out and hopefully start working with people that we know from the community too, because there's

1071
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,580
some verification in that too.

1072
00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:11,420
So the question was, well, this expand into other areas like human trafficking and things like that.

1073
00:51:11,660 --> 00:51:16,760
Um, so the original goal was to also have it cover revenge porn, cause that's a big problem,

1074
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:21,260
but, uh, some things happened in the, in the org, in the, um, making of this foundation

1075
00:51:21,260 --> 00:51:22,880
where that did not come to fruition.

1076
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,480
So, um, we felt at first it may be the best.

1077
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:26,560
Yeah.

1078
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:33,320
to just focus on this and then as we grow as a team and we get more answers, the answers

1079
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,440
that you guys and gals have so we know our process and framework that we'll be able to

1080
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:38,820
do that.

1081
00:51:59,220 --> 00:52:00,020
Thank you.

1082
00:52:00,180 --> 00:52:02,800
I look forward to your help on that too and advice.

1083
00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:04,080
Thank you guys.

1084
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:05,100
Thank you so much.

1085
00:52:08,820 --> 00:52:09,740
Thank you.