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Go ahead.

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All right.

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Hi, everybody.

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Wow, I can't believe I'm getting to speak to so many of you at once.

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This is really exciting.

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If you didn't know, my name is Caitlin Bowden.

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I am the CEO and founder of BADASS, which stands for Battling Against Demeaning and Abusive Selfish Sharing.

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I'm going to be doing a brief intro real quick of who we are, what we do, and then I'm going to introduce you to my amazing team.

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So here we go.

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Well, BADASS started out originally because I found out that I myself was a victim and, you know, I saw the scope of the issue, how big it is.

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I was a victim of non-consensual pornography or non-consensual intimate images being shared online when I didn't want them to be.

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I started researching the websites that were surrounding this kind of stuff and saw how big the problem was and how there were no resources for this sort of stuff.

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I got really sick of feeling helpless, so I started reaching out to other victims.

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I kind of wanted to crowdsource justice and, you know, I found all these amazing, wonderful human beings who were just as just as sick of being as helpless as I was.

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And we just got together and started brainstorming different ways we could fight back.

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Now, before all this happened, I was a bartender and didn't have any experience in any sort of, you know, tech field or really much of anything other than making the best Long Island you'll ever have in your entire life.

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You know, but I went from being a bartender to, you know, helping introduce legislation in the state of Ohio that would criminalize revenge porn, which we did get cast, you know, to organizing, you know, a huge group and helping out thousands of victims,

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helping them remove their photos and collect evidence and seizing justice.

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You know, and then I got to go and introduce a federal bill, you know, which is still, you know, going through the process, but hopefully pretty soon it might be a criminal act in the United States, which is what we'd like to see.

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You know, and now I get to talk to you guys.

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So really, this is like the peak of my career thus far.

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You know, but why am I speaking to you?

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This is DEF CON.

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You don't want to hear about, you know, legislation right now.

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You're supposed to be here talking about hacking and tech.

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And, you know, and I'm here kind of because y'all keep insisting on it.

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Everyone keeps insisting I'm a hacker.

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I have helped organize a thousand victims to fight back and we've gotten to do a lot of really cool stuff.

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You know, from, you know, posting thousands of pictures of Shrek to drown out threads of nudes being shared without consent.

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And, you know, teaching them some tips and tricks on how to be secure and, you know, still express their sexuality online.

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You know, and there's other things that we've done that are best left for Sky Talks.

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My lawyer is here.

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She will yell at me.

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So got to be quiet on that one.

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And here we are.

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I would love to introduce you to this amazing and wonderful team.

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I'm actually just going to be moderating this panel.

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I'm going to be letting them speak because I get a lot of chances too and it's time for their voices to get heard.

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So without further ado, let me introduce you to my badasses.

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All right.

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First off, we have Kate Venable, the aforementioned lawyer.

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She is our head of legal.

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She keeps us out of trouble and, you know, helps victims with their own specific cases.

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Next, we have Rachel Lamp, who's my COO.

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She is amazing and wonderful and has more empathy, I think, than any other human being I've ever met in my entire life.

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Coming next, we have Marlee Farlow, who's our CMO.

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She is creative.

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She is fun.

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She is organized, which is the opposite of me.

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I'm very disorganized.

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Next, we have Allie Barnes, who is our CTO, who explains all the things that, you know, you guys talk about when I have dumb questions and teaches me a little bit about tech.

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And then finally, we have Timmy Doomsday, who is our CISO, however that's said.

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And he is a blast.

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He's hilarious to be around, and he is really focused on making sure that we have all of our security locked on tight.

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And I'm going to be asking them some questions, and you can ask them some questions.

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Let's get this thing started.

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Hey!

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Hi!

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What's happening?

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So I just did a really brief recap of what we've, you know, done thus far and what we've accomplished with Badass.

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But I would love to hear... let's start this out, you know, on the positive.

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I want to hear y'all brag and talk about your favorite thing that has happened thus far with Badass.

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What is your favorite accomplishment?

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Let's start with Rachel.

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I'd say my favorite accomplishment with Badass is definitely getting that law passed in Ohio.

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It absolutely was life-changing.

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It was so great to be able to take something that would assist so many victims, because a lot of us, like in the beginning, we were based in Ohio.

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So being able to have a course of action for our immediate base was just really life-changing.

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Yeah.

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Kate, I know you've gotten a lot.

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Yeah, the law was awesome.

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Never really expected that to happen.

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In the same vein of things I never expected to happen was, you know, my best friend is like, let's start a non-profit.

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And here we are.

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I really, like when I went to law school, never thought ever that this was anything remotely close to what I would be doing.

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And it's so cool.

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And it's so awesome.

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And it's so much more interesting than half of what all my friends do.

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So I really enjoy it.

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All right, Marley.

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So as a team, I'd say like every time we help a victim is just like a huge accomplishment when I see one of our victims come into our group and let us know that they actually received justice.

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Definitely something to rejoice about.

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And then on a personal level, my favorite professor from my university asked me to come and teach a course with her to like hundreds of students about this issue.

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I did it once and she's asked me to come back definitely.

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And I'm just super pumped about that.

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All right, Allie.

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So favorite accomplishment that I've gotten to like be around and witness is definitely TITS for DEF CON was great to witness.

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And on a personal level, you know, just getting to, I think one of my favorite things has been like the cybersecurity awareness month that we did and stuff like that has been my favorite.

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All right.

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And finally, Timmy, the newest member of this team.

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Right.

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So I'm like the squid, right?

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So, you know, my biggest accomplishment, honestly, is to just be here with these wonderful people on this panel today.

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You know, I started out, Rachel recruited me as just a, you know, humdrum volunteer working victim intake, and now I get to sit here with these wonderful people and talk to all you.

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All right.

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So now that we've gone over the past a little bit, let's talk about the present.

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I know lately we've been a little bit absent on our social media pages.

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We've been taking just a teensy bit of a hiatus, although we are still reachable in case of emergency, if victims need to reach out.

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But so where have we been?

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Well, I think we all took a break to reflect on pretty much what we wanted badass to be in the future going forward.

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And also, we were just really out of spoons.

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As most of us are victims of some sort of sexual abuse or image abuse.

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It really, it takes a toll to continuously have to, you know, go through and reopen those wounds and assist victims.

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Mm-hmm.

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We also...

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Oh, go on.

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Sorry.

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I was just gonna say, and I think like, we're not, I mean, while we do a lot of remote stuff, we're not immune from, you know, the effects of quarantine that everybody else is feeling.

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Like, we're all still here trying to figure out what in the world it means to work from home and how we have to change our model.

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Like, nobody knows what, like, the next day brings in terms of COVID and all of that.

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So, I think that went a lot, like, went into our decision to just, like, take a step back because we're all trying to figure it out along with everybody else.

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Yeah.

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I think a big thing also is that we, you know, we started this and it just blew up.

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And we were just learning as fast as we could, you know, the best ways to go about doing things and to run an organization at this size.

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I mean, we went from being a group of 10 of us to a global thing.

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And, you know, we were just scrambling to catch up, but nothing, we didn't have any, you know, procedures and things in place that were long-term sustainable.

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We were just doing whatever we needed to do in that moment and we needed to organize.

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We needed to figure out the best ways to do things.

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Yeah.

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And I think, like, because of a lot of us being victims, like, we just coming into this organization came into it, like, crazy passionate and wanting to take on, like, anything and everything.

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So, a lot of us were, like, I'm in marketing, but then I'm going out and trying to do law enforcement training and I'm doing classes at colleges and, like, taking on so much because I want to and I'm excited to help and move this forward.

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And then, of course, you know, burnout comes into play and we have to look at ourselves as an organization and look at what we want to do, what we want to focus on and do well and then expand from there.

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So, exactly.

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And you mentioned law enforcement training.

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So, let's talk a little bit about the laws and responses from law enforcement.

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Just quick thumbs up or thumbs down from the team here.

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Do you think that law enforcement is doing an excellent job of handling reports and complaints about when it comes to non-consensual image abuse?

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What do we think?

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All right.

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So, let's talk about that.

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What do you think can be done to change that?

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Training, for one.

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Yeah, well, like, for me, as a victim, going through my own personal case, it took nine times to report my own victimization and a lot of the reason was nobody knew that they handled cybercrimes and that they didn't have cybercrime units and they told me to call the FBI and it just,

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like, blew my mind.

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I'm looking at a statute saying, like, it literally says number four, local law enforcement handles this issue.

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So, like, why is there this disconnect between you understanding that you can do something for victims?

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And, yeah.

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So, I'm just going to say training is one of the biggest issues here.

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Okay.

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Something else that I noticed, and maybe, Kate, you can speak to this a little bit more, but, like, when I was first brought on, you know, I was working on building resources for victims and one of that was going through and just making the law a little bit more digestible and it seems like a lot of the laws that are on the books can't even decide what a nude is and that seems to be,

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like, the basis of the entire conversation.

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So, if we can't even agree on a vocabulary to talk about these things, how are we going to push effective legislation?

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Yeah, I mean, I would definitely agree with that.

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Like, it's not only just, like, what is a nude, but I know Marianne Franks has talked about this a lot in a lot of the stuff that she does with CCRI and, I mean, most of the laws have these intent to harm clauses and basically what it says, basically you have to prove that the poster intended to harm the victim in whatever way by posting it and it's next to impossible to prove and it's next to impossible to enforce.

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Maliciously, yeah.

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Yeah, that vocabulary, malicious.

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Yeah, it makes it pretty much impossible to enforce at all and I think, um, yeah, I mean, it just goes on what you said, Timmy, like, we have to agree on something and then we write these laws and we think they sound all good and great and with an intent to harm makes it,

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I wouldn't say useless per se, but it makes it hard.

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And it even complicates it further once you get into crossing state lines or country lines because the language of each state law is so entirely different and, you know, it's hard enough getting police to want to pursue justice for these victims, but once it crosses state lines,

150
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they just give up pretty much altogether.

151
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Yeah, the language has definitely been an issue.

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Speaking of language, most people know about the type of abuse that we're fighting against.

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They know it as revenge porn.

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What do you guys think about just that wording?

155
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I'm gonna go.

156
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I hate it.

157
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Like, I get it.

158
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It's like, the media kind of jumped on that term and sensationalized it, especially with the fappening and things like that happening, but when you really break it down, revenge porn specifically deals with, like, intimate partners abusing one another,

159
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and it really only represents 8% of non-consensual image abuse cases.

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So I don't like it for that reason, but, like, more than that, the term revenge automatically implies that the victim did something wrong.

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So there's, like, victim blaming built into it, and then the term pornography also has a false sense of consent built into it because generally people who are creating pornography content are consenting to be taped and shared, which none of these victims are.

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So personally, I don't like the term.

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I will use it in cases where I'm trying to get some awareness out and people aren't understanding what I'm talking about, so more as a reference point, or if I'm specifically dealing with somebody whose former partner or current partner is abusing them.

164
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Yeah, I like the way that you just dropped that stat out there, like, it's only 8%.

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Are there any more stats that you think are really important to share?

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Actually, since you are our stats person, you know this stuff better than any of us.

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Stats on stats.

168
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Yeah, it's actually kind of interesting because there's not a ton of resources dedicated to researching this topic.

169
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Like, CCRI is amazing.

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They so far have put out the most research on the topic.

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I did recently see one that came out in February that said that the rate in which this is happening is one in three people are being victimized, and that was just two months ago.

172
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But that was geared more towards European countries and wasn't a worldwide view.

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The most recent stat we have as far as worldwide is concerned is 2017, which said it was one in eight people.

174
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And I'm sure we'll get into lots of reasons why that is rising quickly, but it's hard to say.

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I'm going to go with probably something closer to one in five, one in six as of currently, but it's something that we really need research on.

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And then I know another interesting fact is that, you know, this affects three out of four women.

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Victims are women in most cases, or female-identifying people.

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But in cases where the victim does identify as male, it's 90% of those cases incorporate sex torsion as well as the image abuse.

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So that's just some facts.

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And yeah, those are scary, scary figures to hear.

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Yeah, that many people this is happening to, this is a huge problem.

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You know, but the biggest thing that we hear when we discuss these sorts of things with the public or in the press, immediately the first thing we hear is, well, this wouldn't be a problem if you just didn't take those pictures.

183
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And so we hear it so much.

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I know we all have a ton of different responses that we go to.

185
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So let's share all those responses.

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Let's just get that out of the way.

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Rachel, I can see it.

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You're about to explode with things to say.

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I have so many words for people who say such things, but I'm going to keep it professional-ish.

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It is not the victim's fault.

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Like, it's 2020.

192
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We have cell phones attached to us.

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They're basically part of us.

194
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It only makes sense that, you know, people would be using their cell phones in their sex lives as well.

195
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I mean, we use it to record when we sleep, like to tell us when we fart, like when we talk in our sleep.

196
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Like, of course, it's going to be incorporated into sexual relationships as well.

197
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So I think the thought of excluding that or blaming the person because of them using and expressing their sexuality within a consenting form and that being abused, it's just, it's senseless.

198
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One thing that bugs me is that people always say that when the fact is we, you don't even need to take a nude to become a victim anymore.

199
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You know, I see deepfakes are already being brought up here in the chat, and that is, you know, something we have been monitoring.

200
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So what should we do about the deepfakes?

201
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Do we see that becoming more of a problem?

202
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:24,060
Yeah, I mean, I feel like the media recently has just realized that that's a thing.

203
00:20:24,060 --> 00:20:35,680
But it's something I think our organization has been talking about amongst ourselves and within the community of victims and activists for over a year now, I would say.

204
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:41,660
And then all of a sudden, like within the last, like, I think six months or so, the media is like, oh, deepfakes.

205
00:20:41,660 --> 00:20:47,720
And I'm just like, looking at the headlines, like, duh, where have y'all been?

206
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:54,380
But yeah, no, I mean, it's, it doesn't necessarily mean you took a nude or anything anymore.

207
00:20:54,380 --> 00:21:01,020
Like, it means some jerk put your face on some random naked person and is now exploiting you on the internet.

208
00:21:03,020 --> 00:21:07,760
I believe our first deepfake victim came to us about a year and a half ago.

209
00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:17,720
And since then, it's, it's, it's going to continue to rise, like, human curiosity, and then us just being bored and quarantined.

210
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,820
People have a lot of free time on their hands.

211
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,060
Deepfakes are going to continue to be on the rise.

212
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:37,160
Yeah, I'm actually interested to find out what the stats are on that, just because, like, being quarantined, people are just stuck in their computers.

213
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:42,540
And there's all these apps coming out all the time that allow people to create deepfakes.

214
00:21:42,540 --> 00:21:48,620
I know that there's that one, I think, a year ago, or a little less than a year ago, that came out and was kind of making waves.

215
00:21:48,620 --> 00:21:57,240
And I really wish I, like, I knew how to how to stop that or any advice to prevent that from happening.

216
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,340
But it's just, it's cropping up everywhere.

217
00:22:01,340 --> 00:22:07,000
And so quickly that I'm just, I'm not, I'm at a loss, personally, as to what to do.

218
00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:15,860
And I mean, it doesn't help that, you know, the, think about the processing power it takes to do some of that stuff.

219
00:22:15,860 --> 00:22:19,900
It wasn't just sitting on your desk two or three years ago.

220
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:28,560
Whereas now, I have a laptop that could probably generate a deepfake in an hour or two, you know, with the right settings.

221
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:36,520
And never underestimate, you know, someone that's time rich and money poor, which is a lot of us right now.

222
00:22:36,940 --> 00:22:39,060
Yeah, I was gonna say that's exactly it.

223
00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:43,400
People have so much more time to write these tools and stuff now.

224
00:22:45,980 --> 00:22:47,100
Yeah.

225
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:54,220
But beyond deepfakes, I mean, that's a, it still is a problem that is growing.

226
00:22:54,220 --> 00:22:55,760
And it's something we're anticipating.

227
00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:10,700
But you know, the majority of the people coming to us, you know, their images that have been leaked, or something that they took, or allowed a trusted partner to take, and that were leaked without their consent.

228
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:18,280
So say someone wants to, you know, still continue doing that, which we encourage, we encourage that sort of thing.

229
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:19,960
But we want them to do it safely.

230
00:23:20,820 --> 00:23:26,880
What tips do you have for people to sext and take nudes and not become victims?

231
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,320
So there's a few things I feel like that we tell people.

232
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:43,500
And I mean, I feel like this is the perfect time where I love how we do Cybersecurity Awareness Month, because I feel like it's a perfect time to like, flood everyone with all the tips every day.

233
00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:45,900
And Rachel did such a good job last year.

234
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:49,700
Yeah, I almost said yesterday, last year, putting stuff together.

235
00:23:49,840 --> 00:24:02,660
But you know, basic things are like, simple things, but you know, turning off the location on your phone and making sure your address is not attached to your data that's coming from your camera roll.

236
00:24:02,860 --> 00:24:08,640
Pay attention to what apps you're using and what data they're storing of yours.

237
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:14,520
Something that a lot of people don't think of that I've seen people get bit on is like Snapchat memories.

238
00:24:14,620 --> 00:24:21,360
You take a picture on Snapchat and you think it goes away, but Snapchat saves it and is like, trying to remind you about it later.

239
00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:27,720
But all it takes at that point is someone to get your Snapchat password if you don't have everything protected properly.

240
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:34,880
So those things, you know, things we say, keep two-factor on for all of the things that you can.

241
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,080
You know, pay attention to what's in the pictures that you're sending to people that you don't know or trust.

242
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:46,680
Make sure there's maybe no random box in the background with your home address on it.

243
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:50,740
Yeah, those are the things come to mind off the top of my head.

244
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,300
Speaking of making sure you know what's in your pictures, exit data.

245
00:24:54,740 --> 00:25:00,160
You want to make sure to wipe that so you're not accidentally sharing location and stuff like that.

246
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:01,620
What else?

247
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,940
Oh, I was just, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.

248
00:25:04,940 --> 00:25:06,580
No, no, I was done.

249
00:25:06,580 --> 00:25:07,120
Go.

250
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:28,940
No, I was just gonna say like, so in my day job, when I'm lawyering and stuff, this has like actually really helped my practice and me helping victims and, you know, like just raising awareness in general as to like how to protect your own privacy, not just in terms of image abuse,

251
00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:44,220
but like if there's domestic violence or stalking or some other, you know, like menacing or whatever crime you can think of that involves somebody being creepy, like it's basic privacy info.

252
00:25:44,220 --> 00:26:00,520
Change your passwords, turn on two-factor, turn off your location, don't give your significant other like unfettered access to where you are 24-7 because that's creepy anyway, but that's neither here nor there.

253
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:28,960
But I mean, it's just, I mean, basically what Allie said, like it's stuff that people don't think about and with the way that all these companies like Google and Apple and whoever like track our data these days, it's important to know what data we're sharing and who is seeing it and what control we have over who it goes to and where it goes to and when.

254
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:43,020
And also, sorry, I was going to say to add on to that, you could, you can simply watermark your photos with the name of the person you're sending them to.

255
00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:56,820
And also you can, you can create kind of a contract between each other by like asking your partner explicitly like not to send these photos or it will cause me harm.

256
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:03,840
Those are really important words because we know that that's how the laws really frame them is that intent to harm.

257
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:17,400
So if you can just check that box immediately and screenshot it, keep it in a file with their name, then I think that would really do a lot in the way of prevention and also assisting in your own legal case if it comes to that point.

258
00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:21,110
Yeah.

259
00:27:21,450 --> 00:27:28,870
I always want to remind people, you know, you want to think about the future and always hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

260
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:33,590
You know, make that screen, that contract screenshot at your lawyer.

261
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:36,630
If they ever need one, we'll thank you for that.

262
00:27:37,610 --> 00:27:39,230
So yeah, that's really important.

263
00:27:39,230 --> 00:27:47,010
I know that we had discussed Snapchat and other various apps that are being used to share these images.

264
00:27:47,650 --> 00:27:56,990
And what, you know, responsibility do they have, do you think, to, you know, prevent this sort of thing from happening?

265
00:27:56,990 --> 00:28:08,270
And what are you seeing platforms and companies doing that they're just falling short and letting, you know, victims, victimization happen on their platform?

266
00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:14,600
I mean, do you want the real answer?

267
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:34,320
I mean, from my perspective, like, Facebook could like respond to subpoenas that are from not law enforcement, maybe, possibly, at some point in time, that might be helpful.

268
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:42,900
Like, if somebody sends stuff during mess, like using Facebook Messenger, it's next to impossible to get anything useful for court.

269
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,900
And you're, I'm not law enforcement, so they don't care.

270
00:28:49,820 --> 00:28:56,380
I mean, other people can speak to what they've experienced, but that's the first thing that comes to mind for me.

271
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:02,200
Well, the other thing that, the first thing that comes to mind for me are hosting companies, right?

272
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,920
There's usually a blanket AUP policy that says, don't post these kinds of things.

273
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:17,920
But image abuse, if there's, especially if there's not minors involved, right, they may or may not be on their abuse priority list.

274
00:29:18,180 --> 00:29:32,900
So I think it's important to hold these hosting companies accountable and keep letting them know when they're willingly hosting, you know, websites and clients that are committing image abuse, like Cloudflare.

275
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,680
Oh, wait, wait, what did we have planned for Cloudflare when we said that at some point?

276
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,260
I just want to throw that out there.

277
00:29:40,780 --> 00:29:45,260
Yeah, just, we're waving, we're saying hi.

278
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,540
Now, we've run into these issues with Cloudflare for a very long time.

279
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:59,240
They have repeatedly, you know, and it's not just them, but they are the most egregious when it comes to this.

280
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,400
What, you know, other apps, let's call them out.

281
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:09,500
Like, who is just doing a really shitty job of letting victim, of letting victimization happen on their platform?

282
00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:11,760
And versus who do you think is doing all right?

283
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:13,520
Like, who's actually trying?

284
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,080
I think that Twitter is quite a shame.

285
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,240
They could really respond to reports.

286
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:28,680
I remember that there was an actual Twitter account that was for one of these hosting sites.

287
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,180
And it took two years for it to be removed.

288
00:30:32,180 --> 00:30:37,310
And they openly boasted about having specifically leaked images and revenge porn.

289
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:40,190
So, Twitter.

290
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:45,140
Anyone else?

291
00:30:45,140 --> 00:30:45,600
Twitter .

292
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,700
I can speak to a couple of ones that have at least been trying.

293
00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:53,140
And mind you, their methods aren't perfect.

294
00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:57,620
And obviously, victimization still happens quite a bit on their platform.

295
00:30:57,620 --> 00:31:01,420
But at least they are a either trying to address the problem or prevent it.

296
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:09,360
You know, Facebook, they came out with a pilot to try to prevent images from being uploaded in the first place.

297
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,800
And yes, it's Facebook, and nobody's going to trust them.

298
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:19,580
As I believe the press, you know, kind of twisted it to, you know, send Facebook your nudes, which is the worst idea ever.

299
00:31:19,660 --> 00:31:23,140
But they were trying, they addressed that there was an issue.

300
00:31:23,140 --> 00:31:27,560
And, you know, they acknowledged it, and they are trying something.

301
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:46,040
And the other one that has been actually good to work with, and I know this is, you know, a bit of a controversial opinion, but Pornhub has had their moderators involved with us from the very beginning, and given us a direct line to making sure that things get taken down really quickly,

302
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,060
as soon as, you know, anyone discovers there's a problem.

303
00:31:49,060 --> 00:31:54,380
And no one has even, you know, really tried to make sure the problem never happens in the first place yet.

304
00:31:54,860 --> 00:31:56,500
But I'm waiting to see that happen next.

305
00:31:56,500 --> 00:31:58,160
And I'm really excited about that.

306
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:00,840
Anyone else?

307
00:32:01,060 --> 00:32:02,240
Want to call someone out?

308
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,140
Want to call a platform?

309
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:05,040
Start a fight?

310
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,120
Let's do it.

311
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,120
I mean, we've had issues with Instagram forever.

312
00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:14,560
Like, reporting.

313
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:29,520
I mean, I personally know someone who, it's not necessarily, like, revenge porn or image abuse per se, but it started, like, his victimization started with Instagram.

314
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,000
And it's been years.

315
00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:42,240
And it's taken thousands of people reporting, and millions of dollars extorted for them to even do anything.

316
00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:46,940
They finally, like, CNN got the story recently.

317
00:32:46,940 --> 00:32:50,420
But other than that, like, I mean, it's insane.

318
00:32:50,420 --> 00:33:00,780
Like, everybody I know who has been victimized on Instagram has had the worst time even getting them to listen.

319
00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:08,100
Yeah, and that's a shame because I feel like a lot of, like, high school leaps end up on Instagram.

320
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:17,980
And the fact that they're not very responsive in a very fast way, really, it's a shame because that stuff should be snuffed out relatively quickly, you know.

321
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:21,600
I have one.

322
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:24,340
Reddit.

323
00:33:25,820 --> 00:33:30,980
So, like, they try sometimes.

324
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:48,680
My qualm with them is that they don't, they have moderators who do remove content, which is great, but they don't retain that content so that victims can claim it and use it as evidence, which is kind of a huge problem.

325
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,480
Like, and where, I'm in Florida, and it's a stackable offense here.

326
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:59,340
In my case, my image was posted on Reddit and also on another site.

327
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:07,980
And the person who did it was only facing a misdemeanor because Reddit took down the image, and I had no proof that it was ever there.

328
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,300
So, you know, I reached out to them directly and asked them, like, what's going on?

329
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:14,300
Can you put something in place?

330
00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:25,220
If you can flag images as non-consensual image abuse, then you should also be able to, like, keep them in a repository that's saved for law enforcement to contact and get later.

331
00:34:25,220 --> 00:34:28,080
But alas, there's nothing.

332
00:34:30,180 --> 00:34:30,920
Absolutely .

333
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,860
And how could we forget Discord?

334
00:34:32,860 --> 00:34:33,990
Discord.

335
00:34:37,180 --> 00:34:49,140
That's actually the first time I ever came to Discord was because of my images being in an entire revenge porn Discord server, which is lovely.

336
00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:53,800
And they also remove content without preserving any of the data.

337
00:34:53,900 --> 00:35:03,620
You just have to really hope that the officer you're working with is able to send the preservation of data quick enough before that content is just gone forever.

338
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,740
Smash cut to the stream getting dropped immediately.

339
00:35:07,740 --> 00:35:14,020
I mean, and that's not even in just, you know, image abuse cases with adults.

340
00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:15,840
We've run into that issue as well.

341
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:22,920
A lot of our work, you know, does involve CSAM, which is exploitation of children.

342
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:29,640
And so it's been really frustrating to see companies drop the ball on that a lot.

343
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:36,120
So we've discussed, you know, the platforms and their responsibility.

344
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:53,860
And I know a little bit ago, I just saw a really great talk, actually, you know, just a couple hours ago, it was in Crypto Village, and it was regarding Section 230, as well as the upcoming, you know, Earn It Act, which is gaining momentum, you know, through the process.

345
00:35:53,860 --> 00:35:56,900
And, you know, what are your thoughts on those?

346
00:35:59,540 --> 00:36:08,760
Yeah, I mean, with CDA 230, it has a lot of nuance to it.

347
00:36:08,980 --> 00:36:11,080
It has some good points.

348
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:21,180
And it also has, it also creates loopholes that I don't know, I don't want to like criticize it too much, because I'm not sure that the loopholes were necessarily intentional.

349
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:34,420
But I mean, when we were talking about Cloudflare earlier, I mean, their web hosts aren't responsible for the content that they're hosting because of laws like CDA 230.

350
00:36:34,420 --> 00:36:41,780
And while they are meant to be helpful, like they also create more problems.

351
00:36:41,780 --> 00:36:52,100
And I just, it needs to be retooled so that it's a better law and has less room for wiggle, like less wiggle room.

352
00:36:53,040 --> 00:37:08,400
You know, the biggest argument that I've really heard when it comes to that, you know, and a lot of what our work is, whenever we're trying to talk about legislation regarding this form of abuse, the biggest argument I hear about is about how, you know,

353
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,060
NCP is, it's a free speech thing.

354
00:37:11,620 --> 00:37:17,300
And people claim that, you know, this is free speech.

355
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:19,020
And what are your thoughts on that?

356
00:37:21,710 --> 00:37:22,330
Well,

357
00:37:27,420 --> 00:37:43,800
I think that nudity and nude photographs could be free speech, but once it enters into the realm of harming people, that's when it exits, you know, free speech up until a point.

358
00:37:44,060 --> 00:37:48,180
But what, at what point do we consider things to be harmful?

359
00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:52,520
I think it comes down to the consent, personally.

360
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,440
Yeah, I'd agree with that.

361
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:08,340
I think that's where the, I think that's part of the argument behind the intent to harm thing, intent to harm clause, is that's what makes it not free speech anymore.

362
00:38:08,340 --> 00:38:16,540
But we can't define it that broadly and make it that vague because it becomes unenforceable.

363
00:38:16,900 --> 00:38:18,820
Free speech is complicated.

364
00:38:18,820 --> 00:38:23,000
It's way more complicated than the average person would think it is.

365
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:31,360
And yes, we have free speech, but it doesn't mean that you can say what you want and do what you want without repercussions.

366
00:38:31,420 --> 00:38:40,700
And it doesn't mean that, it also doesn't mean that just because it's free speech, it's the right or moral thing to do.

367
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:47,680
Like, there's a difference between what our country allows us to say and what is morally and ethically correct.

368
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:54,300
Yeah, legality doesn't always equal morality, nor vice versa.

369
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:55,140
Yep.

370
00:38:56,580 --> 00:39:02,800
So yeah, I know this, I've seen quite a few questions in the chat.

371
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:10,720
Also, big props to my amazing husband, TC, if you haven't noticed, he has been helping us field these questions.

372
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:12,760
He's making sure that we get them.

373
00:39:12,860 --> 00:39:21,840
And any messages that I might be missing, because I'm also moderating the panel and don't always have time to look at this chat, he's making sure we see them.

374
00:39:22,020 --> 00:39:26,800
And just basically being the most amazing personal assistant in the world.

375
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,160
So thank you, TC.

376
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,200
So I would like to start addressing some audience questions.

377
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:48,260
All right, and the first one is, given the type of victims that you help, do you find that you as an organization are now targeted in order to gain access to lists of clients by harassers and such like?

378
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,900
And they aimed that toward Ali.

379
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,140
So I mean, let's start that off with you.

380
00:39:56,140 --> 00:39:56,560
Yeah.

381
00:39:56,860 --> 00:40:03,060
So I would say it definitely, you know, makes us more at risk.

382
00:40:03,060 --> 00:40:15,620
I don't know if I would say that it's for people wanting to get a list of our victims or clients, people that we help so much as it's people that are pissed off that we're doing what we're doing.

383
00:40:15,620 --> 00:40:23,000
And they kind of, you know, feel this need to, like, plot a revenge against us kind of thing.

384
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,860
We're taking away their control, right?

385
00:40:24,860 --> 00:40:29,460
So they're revenging revenge porn.

386
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:30,880
Revenge.

387
00:40:31,060 --> 00:40:34,900
I mean, I think Caitlin can tell you this.

388
00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:37,600
We have a whole lot of trolls.

389
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:41,580
And yeah.

390
00:40:42,140 --> 00:40:44,100
Can we talk real quick, though?

391
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:47,740
Like, speaking of trolls, can we just talk real quick about tits for DEF CON from last year?

392
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:49,760
And how that went?

393
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,600
If anyone remembers that.

394
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,840
And I remember.

395
00:40:55,180 --> 00:40:56,800
Yeah, that was fun.

396
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,160
People were mad.

397
00:41:00,060 --> 00:41:07,640
But yeah, I mean, we've gotten, like, I mean, yeah, we've gotten trolls.

398
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,480
We've gotten, it's not just trolls.

399
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:15,580
You can only use, you can only use money you've made in InfoSec to come to DEF CON.

400
00:41:15,580 --> 00:41:17,940
That's the only money you're allowed to use.

401
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,120
Yeah, whore money should be spent on poor things.

402
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:22,960
Exactly.

403
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,340
Just what we did.

404
00:41:25,860 --> 00:41:26,580
Right?

405
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:37,980
I like that.

406
00:41:37,980 --> 00:41:39,080
Yeah.

407
00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:47,960
And we've had, like, members of the org be, you know, threatened, re-victimized, doxxed, like, all kinds of things.

408
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,060
So I'd say, yeah, 100%.

409
00:41:50,060 --> 00:41:51,980
People do target us.

410
00:41:52,060 --> 00:41:53,560
They try to.

411
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,860
And, you know, we all support one another.

412
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,600
And do our best to fight against that, too.

413
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,860
I just wanted to show off the whore dollars, the stickers that we had for DEF CON last year.

414
00:42:06,860 --> 00:42:09,880
That says, I spent my whore money at DEF CON.

415
00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:12,200
And she's got a titty out.

416
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:13,440
Her favorite one.

417
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,120
Just one.

418
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,640
I think I have three whore dollars.

419
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,480
Three whore dollars?

420
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:19,780
What are you going to buy?

421
00:42:19,780 --> 00:42:21,420
What whore things are you going to buy?

422
00:42:22,420 --> 00:42:23,720
Something special.

423
00:42:25,260 --> 00:42:26,940
I don't know where it came from.

424
00:42:27,620 --> 00:42:28,380
I don't know.

425
00:42:28,740 --> 00:42:29,280
All right.

426
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,720
So the next question.

427
00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:30,920
All right.

428
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,840
So we discussed, you know, do we see ourselves more of a target?

429
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:34,580
I think so.

430
00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:40,480
We have had people try to infiltrate our, you know, private spaces that we have for victims.

431
00:42:40,780 --> 00:42:47,500
We have a lot of different things that we do to make sure that when people contact us, they are who they say they are.

432
00:42:48,220 --> 00:43:07,260
You know, because there have been some, you know, threats made of people trying to gain access to victims or, you know, looking to, you know, there's a whole separate there's a whole separate fetish for people that enjoy seeing victims reactions when they find out their photos are out there.

433
00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:12,660
They like to get the screenshots of them notifying victims, hey, your pictures are out there and they freak out.

434
00:43:13,740 --> 00:43:17,840
You know, and I had somebody tried to do that to me, actually, on Twitter rather recently.

435
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:20,720
And I just made fun of them.

436
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:24,120
It was great, because I no longer give a shit.

437
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,360
But that is a thing.

438
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:35,200
So gaining access to victims and watching them in their most vulnerable states, you know, that's the how awful is it that people get off that?

439
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,900
Just saying.

440
00:43:37,180 --> 00:43:43,820
Next question is, what are some privacy tips that parents can pass on to their kids or teens?

441
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:51,180
You know, recognition of exploitative behavior, protecting oneself online from malicious X, so on and so forth.

442
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,580
I'm going to like repeat what we said a little bit earlier.

443
00:43:55,580 --> 00:44:05,400
And just like, in general, have a talk about consent with your kids and your teens, even starting at a really, really young age, like consent applies to everything.

444
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,020
It's never not sexy.

445
00:44:07,020 --> 00:44:17,580
And it's never weird to bring up that, like, I want you to do this or that with my body or images of my body, and only that.

446
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:24,700
So yeah, just impress upon them the importance of consent and having those conversations with their partners.

447
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:35,840
So if they are sharing images, which it probably will be, they do need to have those conversations about what is allowed to happen with those images that they do share.

448
00:44:36,620 --> 00:44:37,140
Yeah.

449
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,000
Oh, sorry.

450
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:40,640
No, go on.

451
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:41,400
You were clapping.

452
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,580
I was gonna say, do not force your kids to hug people.

453
00:44:45,860 --> 00:44:47,520
That, I can't agree more.

454
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,160
You can start talking about consent at a very early age.

455
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,060
And it's not just consent that you want to cover.

456
00:44:53,060 --> 00:44:55,820
You also want to cover what your agency is.

457
00:44:55,820 --> 00:45:02,080
Having agency over your own body, how to say no, how to speak out when something is making you uncomfortable.

458
00:45:02,260 --> 00:45:06,560
These are conversations that people don't want to have because they're uncomfortable, but they need to.

459
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:14,540
Because having them later after a victimizing incident or after trauma is going to be way more awkward, I promise.

460
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,920
Not to mention traumatic.

461
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:24,700
No, and I'm just going to pop in real fast too, like, because you're right, consent and agency go hand in hand.

462
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:32,840
And actually just kind of recently, in the last couple of years, there's a new kind of method of looking at consent called the triangle of consent.

463
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,660
I encourage everybody to look it up.

464
00:45:36,100 --> 00:45:43,880
But that incorporates power, agency, and communication, and all three of those things come together to create consent.

465
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:48,160
So I think that's a really good starting point for talking to your kids and teens.

466
00:45:49,000 --> 00:46:07,120
I also think that a really important addition to that is once your kids reach the teen years and you notice that they start to look at pornography, I think that talking about consensual pornography and what that looks like and what they should be recognizing and what they should be consuming,

467
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,200
I think that's really important as well.

468
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:26,320
Yeah, I think that, yeah, having just healthy talks surrounding sex is really important, but it's also really important to talk to them about, you know, security and things like that, because they, you know, that is, this is a really big place of where both things,

469
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,980
you know, intersect.

470
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:30,040
Because...

471
00:46:31,980 --> 00:46:33,600
I was gonna say, I agree with that.

472
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:45,680
Like, you know, I mean, if your child isn't comfortable doing something with their boyfriend or their girlfriend, they should be able to say, yo, I'm not comfortable with this.

473
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:52,140
Like, teaching your kids the way to stand up for themselves will go a long way.

474
00:46:52,140 --> 00:47:01,440
And, I mean, I know it's not necessarily, like, image abuse related, but, I mean, it really is, like, all about teaching consent.

475
00:47:02,660 --> 00:47:05,020
And recognizing threats.

476
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:18,140
And, like, teaching, just teaching kids to be careful when they're online and talking to people, when they're on TikTok and interacting with people that they think are one person, but they might be somebody else.

477
00:47:18,140 --> 00:47:22,760
Like, don't put your private information or your personal information anywhere.

478
00:47:23,940 --> 00:47:31,700
Just general abstract, I think, is really important to start that conversation as soon as your kids have access to a device.

479
00:47:32,580 --> 00:47:33,680
Mm-hmm.

480
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:52,820
All right, next question, and I was told to ask this one next, is Jordan White wanted to know, they have a famous friend named, you know, I'm going to redact the name because the Streisand effect was real, and she has a very bad stalker who has now been stalking my other friends who have worked for her,

481
00:47:52,820 --> 00:47:54,680
provided outfits, business, etc.

482
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,840
Should she contact Badass for this or something?

483
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,720
She and her friends are very lost.

484
00:48:00,100 --> 00:48:02,140
Um, how would you address that?

485
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:04,720
Yeah, contact us.

486
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,340
Yeah, definitely.

487
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,420
Kimmy, you're the one that said we need to take this question.

488
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:11,160
Absolutely.

489
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:18,060
I mean, I think, I think if there's like that public cry for help, I definitely think that that's something you should contact us with.

490
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,640
And that's the whole reason we have this org.

491
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:23,920
Absolutely.

492
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:41,140
I do want to mention that you're, um, that while we do focus squarely on image abuse, okay, which is non-consensual leaking of nude images, it also has to do with upskirting any sort of non-consensual behavior online or offline that involves images.

493
00:48:41,140 --> 00:48:50,380
Um, you know, we get approached a lot when it comes to questions about stalking, about, um, harassment, about, you know, abuse.

494
00:48:50,380 --> 00:49:04,400
And while we might not have every answer, um, we do know a lot of people that we can talk to, um, and we will always do our best to address these issues as much as we can.

495
00:49:04,620 --> 00:49:06,860
Um, so yeah, yeah, absolutely.

496
00:49:06,860 --> 00:49:20,300
I think the best way to sum it up, and I actually think Caitlin's the one that said that, said this to me when I first started, was if you think you need to contact badass, if that's even a question in your mind, reach out.

497
00:49:21,780 --> 00:49:35,340
Yeah, I mean, even if we can't necessarily, like, even if you don't think that it pertains to what we do, odds are somebody in this group will be able to help you.

498
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,200
Um, somebody has experienced what you experienced.

499
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,380
Somebody is, somebody's there.

500
00:49:43,380 --> 00:49:51,080
Um, that's the beauty of our group, is you're not alone, and you always have somebody to talk to.

501
00:49:51,320 --> 00:50:00,400
I will say that when this happens to you online, especially, you know, when it happens to you in my situation, I didn't understand the internet at all.

502
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,520
I, uh, barely went outside Google and Facebook.

503
00:50:03,780 --> 00:50:10,060
And so when it happened to me, I felt really, really helpless and overwhelmed and alone.

504
00:50:10,060 --> 00:50:15,880
Above all, I felt isolated and scared because I didn't know who was doing this to me.

505
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,920
I didn't know who had been helping them, who all these people making these horrible comments about my body.

506
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:21,780
I didn't know who they were.

507
00:50:21,780 --> 00:50:32,500
So when I turned to somebody for help, it might be one of those people that's just looking to make fun of me more, um, or kick me when I'm down, when I'm feeling vulnerable.

508
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:46,080
So I, you know, just knowing that you're not alone and that there is someone that you can talk to that you can trust and who isn't going to be judging you and isn't going to be re-victimizing you is important.

509
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:47,740
And that can make a huge difference.

510
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:54,460
So yeah, uh, that is absolutely have them, um, contact us.

511
00:50:54,460 --> 00:50:57,340
They can do so with any of our Twitter handles.

512
00:50:57,420 --> 00:51:08,700
Um, and we'll put those in the chat and, you know, or through our website, www.badassarmy.org, which also I saw one of the questions was, how can people support you guys?

513
00:51:09,060 --> 00:51:11,600
And, um, how can people support y'all?

514
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:16,500
And, uh, the best way they can do that is through our website.

515
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:23,120
We have some donation, uh, links that they can use as well as just letting people know we're here.

516
00:51:24,780 --> 00:51:32,240
Um, so next question, uh, what about cases outside of the U S like Ireland or the UK?

517
00:51:35,730 --> 00:51:38,150
Um, we have a UK group.

518
00:51:39,410 --> 00:51:59,210
Um, we know people, um, I mean, our organization has contacts like internationally for, I mean, we can, we can find someone who can help you pretty much is what my answer to that would be.

519
00:51:59,490 --> 00:52:13,310
Um, our, our net is wide and we can, um, we all know enough people who know people who can point you where you need to go.

520
00:52:13,310 --> 00:52:21,510
I just want to mention that the U S is really far behind everybody else.

521
00:52:22,070 --> 00:52:23,670
That's what I was going to say.

522
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:28,590
The UK, they have a bunch of orgs, their laws are built stronger.

523
00:52:28,770 --> 00:52:33,810
Um , and Australia, oh my gosh, Australia is just really ahead of this.

524
00:52:33,810 --> 00:52:42,170
They have an entire section of their government that is just, um, you know, it's a government funded organization to prevent this.

525
00:52:42,170 --> 00:52:57,950
Uh, and they're already tackling things that the U S is still, you know, most people don't acknowledge that they're things that exist like deep fakes or, you know, how this all, you know, they're really starting to make things happen in Australia.

526
00:52:57,950 --> 00:53:03,190
So yeah, we have a lot of, we have a lot of ways to go.

527
00:53:07,270 --> 00:53:08,830
That's literally what I was going to say.

528
00:53:08,830 --> 00:53:09,810
So yay.

529
00:53:12,670 --> 00:53:13,670
All right.

530
00:53:13,710 --> 00:53:15,830
Um, somebody said it really comes down to this.

531
00:53:15,830 --> 00:53:31,890
How can a law or set of laws be created or phrased to fight this issue without being used to clamp down on speech or sex workers, similar to FOSTA-SESTA, which is, um, you know, something that by all means, it was meant to help people that are getting victimized and,

532
00:53:31,890 --> 00:53:42,930
um, you know, help prevent this sort of victimization by, you know, in making platforms, um, accountable, but at the same time, it hasn't really been used for that.

533
00:53:42,930 --> 00:53:43,610
Has it?

534
00:53:43,810 --> 00:53:44,350
No.

535
00:53:44,350 --> 00:53:47,430
What it's been used for is to attack and harm sex workers.

536
00:53:47,550 --> 00:53:50,730
Um, and it has a body count at this point.

537
00:53:50,990 --> 00:54:05,930
So how do you think that we should, um, be addressing this in a way that isn't going to either, A, be used to harm sex workers or, um, B, be used to infringe on our free speech?

538
00:54:05,970 --> 00:54:06,390
Yeah.

539
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:07,850
Uh, that's really hard.

540
00:54:07,850 --> 00:54:18,630
Uh, but like my first initial thought is to just, is to kind of focus that language on like, uh, or I guess focus the law itself on proof of consent.

541
00:54:18,630 --> 00:54:28,350
So like you're responsible if you're posting content to prove that the subject and that content has consented to being in it.

542
00:54:28,350 --> 00:54:34,090
Like maybe if there's, if that comes into play somewhere that will help a lot.

543
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:46,660
Like requiring websites that allow pornography to get a release from every person that is actively participating on screen?

544
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:48,180
Yeah.

545
00:54:48,780 --> 00:54:54,440
I mean, that wouldn't be any different than other websites that posts.

546
00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:56,480
I mean, yeah.

547
00:54:58,140 --> 00:55:00,600
Like just verify the user.

548
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,300
Um, I mean, I think the U.S.

549
00:55:03,300 --> 00:55:08,400
speaking of being behind and how other countries deal with it, I think the U.S.

550
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,640
over criminalizes that behavior.

551
00:55:11,060 --> 00:55:36,040
Um, from my personal opinion on it, not my necessarily like legal opinion on it, but, um, yeah, I think there's a way to write these laws that doesn't make it like that makes consensual sex work legal and doesn't criminalize it and lets people do what people are going to do.

552
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:39,520
Um, I mean, we're a country founded on privacy.

553
00:55:40,140 --> 00:55:42,120
Let people do what they want.

554
00:55:42,140 --> 00:55:55,480
And also a large portion of our, um, victim base are sex workers because, you know, you want your photos in a consensual way to be released to a certain market in a certain bubble.

555
00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:01,260
And once it releases outside of that, it can be just as harmful as for anyone else, you know?

556
00:56:01,380 --> 00:56:09,980
So I think that these, um, sorts of laws help and also harm, you know, it's double-ended.

557
00:56:10,140 --> 00:56:27,400
Yeah, Rachel, that's a good point too, is, um, I mean, you're, it's just because you're a sex worker doesn't mean that your copyrighted personal work isn't your intellectual property that you get to keep and that you're entitled to.

558
00:56:27,860 --> 00:56:29,360
It shouldn't matter.

559
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:32,660
And consent for one doesn't consent to, to, if.

560
00:56:32,660 --> 00:56:39,500
Consent for one doesn't translate to consent for many, allowing a certain, I mean, even transactional consent is consent.

561
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:40,700
And that is the thing that matters.

562
00:56:40,700 --> 00:56:49,940
And it's just as traumatic to have people that you didn't want to be seeing your images or, you know, often with sex workers, we find them doxxed, um, along with their images.

563
00:56:49,940 --> 00:56:53,420
So it's double the trauma right there.

564
00:56:53,420 --> 00:57:02,240
And I mean, I think it's the ultimate irony that we're speaking at a hacker conference where we talk about how broken copyright laws are in the DMCA.

565
00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:11,480
And at the same time, you know, that's one of our, as an organization, biggest tools to fight some of this, you know, is the copyright laws.

566
00:57:12,140 --> 00:57:12,860
Oh yeah.

567
00:57:13,620 --> 00:57:17,160
Um, hey, you know, we have a really important question I do want to address.

568
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,160
Uh, this is from a friend of mine, Weems.

569
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:30,160
Um, and they asked what should happen is allowing rules that help victims without removing liability protections platforms outside of CSAM and CP.

570
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:40,160
I deeply, deeply concerned about the bills that have been proposed like earn it, which is definitely a pro-censorship law and even more worrying LAED Act, which would outlaw encryption in the US.

571
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,600
And I want to know what the panel thinks about this.

572
00:57:42,940 --> 00:57:48,140
Um, anyone else want to take that one first or sort of cool.

573
00:57:48,140 --> 00:57:50,920
If I jump, you can do it.

574
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:52,140
All right, cool.

575
00:57:52,220 --> 00:58:09,540
Um, you know, I kind of started in on this one with, you know, uh, foster SESTA and how, um, these laws they're you one, they're using CSAM as just, you know, a way to kind of put a friendly spin on this law.

576
00:58:09,540 --> 00:58:13,200
Like if, you know, your lawmakers aren't passing it, that's because they hate kids.

577
00:58:13,260 --> 00:58:19,420
Um, but really when it comes down to it, it's, um, removing the privacy of every user.

578
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:29,160
Uh, and the fact is we've seen them be put in place and we see exactly how little they actually help the things that they're supposed to be, um, preventing.

579
00:58:29,220 --> 00:58:33,460
Um, what these laws are going to be doing is destroying censorship and freedom.

580
00:58:33,460 --> 00:58:34,380
And I don't think that's right.

581
00:58:34,420 --> 00:58:35,960
I hate these laws.

582
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:45,480
They are, I feel like they've been, uh, bought and paid for by, you know, certain, um, you know, very specific lobbies.

583
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:49,140
And I think they're bullshit and we've definitely, everybody needs to get involved.

584
00:58:49,140 --> 00:58:54,140
If there's anything that badass has proved, it's that everybody can get involved when it comes to legislation.

585
00:58:54,780 --> 00:58:58,560
And if you care about something, you need to start calling and making stuff happen.

586
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:07,220
And you need to call your, um, lawmakers and talk to them about the earn it act and that, you know, encryption isn't really important.

587
00:59:07,220 --> 00:59:10,360
It should stay something that we have available.

588
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:11,360
Yeah .

589
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:13,680
I mean, Oh, sorry, Timmy, go ahead.

590
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:14,600
Real quick.

591
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:22,980
I'll take a, I'll take a line out of, uh, uh, talk Corey Doctorow gave at DefCon a couple of years ago about the war on general purpose computing.

592
00:59:22,980 --> 00:59:34,020
And something that I think these lawmakers forget is that it is not possible to make a general purpose computer that does everything except the one thing that you don't want it to do.

593
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,060
Um, that's just not how computers work.

594
00:59:37,060 --> 00:59:38,600
That's not how math works.

595
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:45,820
And that is a nuance that is lost by the old white men writing these laws.

596
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:48,900
Yeah.

597
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:51,640
And, um, that's a really good point.

598
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:53,380
Oh, real quick.

599
00:59:53,380 --> 00:59:54,300
We got like a minute.

600
00:59:54,300 --> 00:59:57,720
So, Oh, I was just going to say, um, I thought you were telling me to stop.

601
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:58,700
Um, sorry.

602
00:59:58,700 --> 00:59:59,020
Yeah.

603
00:59:59,020 --> 01:00:07,160
Uh, that's a really good point to me, but also like to go off what Caitlin was saying, like, um, there is a balance between free speech and censorship.

604
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:25,420
And I think, um, if we're going to start doing things like outlawing encryption and censoring material, like we really need to take that into consideration and without boring y'all with Conwell jurisprudence, um, you know, that's, it's not something to be taken lightly.

605
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:32,500
And I think we really need to examine how we do this and what precedent it could set for the future.

606
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,300
I think Kate just really wanted to say jurisprudence.

607
01:00:35,700 --> 01:00:36,620
I did.

608
01:00:36,620 --> 01:00:36,900
Okay.

609
01:00:36,900 --> 01:00:37,380
All right.

610
01:00:37,380 --> 01:00:40,220
As long as we got that cleared up goal achieved.

611
01:00:40,220 --> 01:00:41,240
All right, real quick.

612
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,420
Um, we are going to be going into the voice chat.

613
01:00:43,420 --> 01:00:44,540
I know I am.

614
01:00:44,580 --> 01:00:48,120
Um, cause frankly, y'all can't make me shut up.

615
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:49,560
So yeah.

616
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:59,960
Um, but I really quick, uh, I just want to see if anyone has one final message they'd like to share with the people watching and listening to this at DEF CON today.

617
01:00:59,960 --> 01:01:01,940
Anyone final message, Rachel.

618
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:06,460
Um, I'd say, um, everyone, please reach out.

619
01:01:06,460 --> 01:01:20,160
If you have a question, comment, concern, we would love to hear you and we would love to, um, integrate you into our, our group of like, you know, sorry, I mean, I cut out the webcam.

620
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:27,420
Um, I really feel that, you know, there's a place for everyone and you do not have to go through image abuse alone.

621
01:01:27,420 --> 01:01:28,640
We're here for you.

622
01:01:28,860 --> 01:01:30,140
And yeah.

623
01:01:32,340 --> 01:01:37,140
Oh, me.

624
01:01:37,140 --> 01:01:37,740
Yeah.

625
01:01:38,100 --> 01:01:38,660
Okay.

626
01:01:38,660 --> 01:01:39,800
I'll keep it quick.

627
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:41,540
Uh, be awesome to one another.

628
01:01:41,540 --> 01:01:42,400
Fuck cloud flare.

629
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:43,640
Black lives matter.

630
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:46,700
All right.

631
01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:47,620
Allie.

632
01:01:48,780 --> 01:01:52,580
Going to echo Timmy's fuck cloud flare comment.

633
01:01:52,620 --> 01:01:55,720
Um, thanks for listening to us, reach out to us if y'all need anything.

634
01:01:55,720 --> 01:02:02,940
We're always around to answer questions and, um, we definitely are going to keep talking about this stuff.

635
01:02:02,940 --> 01:02:03,500
So.

636
01:02:04,980 --> 01:02:06,100
Marley.

637
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:08,920
Uh, ditto on what everybody said.

638
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:24,020
And to add to it, um, yeah, let's please keep talking about this, uh, conversation about how we can make laws that don't infringe on, um, speech and, um, encryption, but that will help victims.

639
01:02:24,020 --> 01:02:28,300
I think that's a really important conversation to have and your voices are really helpful.

640
01:02:28,820 --> 01:02:30,100
Okay.

641
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:31,820
Do you just want us to do this again?

642
01:02:32,300 --> 01:02:38,460
No, ditto, uh, black lives matter and consent is key.

643
01:02:38,460 --> 01:02:40,720
I'll always get it.

644
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:46,360
I'm gonna end this, uh, whole thing up by saying thank you to everyone out there watching.

645
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,940
Thank you to the, you know, everyone organizing DEF CON this year.

646
01:02:49,940 --> 01:02:56,400
I know it has been crazy and chaotic and you haven't do a lot of things that is, that are brand new.

647
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,580
And I just want to say it's been wonderful thus far.

648
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:01,120
I miss you all.

649
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,720
I can't wait to see you in Vegas next year.

650
01:03:03,820 --> 01:03:13,100
Um, and meanwhile, uh, you know, life is short, have all the orgasms, consensual, healthy orgasms, or cookies, depending on what you want.

651
01:03:13,220 --> 01:03:16,260
Um, and just stay badass.

652
01:03:16,740 --> 01:03:17,440
Peace.