Go ahead.
All right. Hi, everybody. Wow, I can't believe I'm getting to speak to so many of you at once.
This is really exciting. If you didn't know, my name is Caitlin Bowden. I am the CEO and founder
of BADASS, which stands for Battling Against Demeaning and Abusive Selfish Sharing. I'm going
to be doing a brief intro real quick of who we are, what we do, and then I'm going to introduce
you to my amazing team. So here we go. Well, BADASS started out originally because I found
out that I myself was a victim and, you know, I saw the scope of the issue, how big it is.
I was a victim of non-consensual pornography or non-consensual intimate images being shared online
when I didn't want them to be. I started researching the websites that were surrounding
this kind of stuff and saw how big the problem was and how there were no resources for this sort
of stuff. I got really sick of feeling helpless, so I started reaching out to other victims.
I kind of wanted to crowdsource justice and, you know, I found all these amazing,
wonderful human beings who were just as just as sick of being as helpless as I was.
And we just got together and started brainstorming different ways we could fight back.
Now, before all this happened, I was a bartender and didn't have any experience in any sort of,
you know, tech field or really much of anything other than making the best Long Island you'll
ever have in your entire life. You know, but I went from being a bartender to, you know,
helping introduce legislation in the state of Ohio that would criminalize revenge porn,
which we did get cast, you know, to organizing, you know, a huge group and helping out thousands
of victims, helping them remove their photos and collect evidence and seizing justice.
You know, and then I got to go and introduce a federal bill, you know, which is still,
you know, going through the process, but hopefully pretty soon it might be a criminal
act in the United States, which is what we'd like to see. You know, and now I get to talk
to you guys. So really, this is like the peak of my career thus far. You know, but why am I
speaking to you? This is DEF CON. You don't want to hear about, you know, legislation right now.
You're supposed to be here talking about hacking and tech. And, you know,
and I'm here kind of because y'all keep insisting on it. Everyone keeps insisting I'm a hacker. I
have helped organize a thousand victims to fight back and we've gotten to do a lot of really cool
stuff. You know, from, you know, posting thousands of pictures of Shrek to drown out threads of nudes
being shared without consent. And, you know, teaching them some tips and tricks on how to be
secure and, you know, still express their sexuality online. You know, and there's other things that
we've done that are best left for Sky Talks. My lawyer is here. She will yell at me. So
got to be quiet on that one. And here we are. I would love to introduce you to this amazing
and wonderful team. I'm actually just going to be moderating this panel. I'm going to be letting
them speak because I get a lot of chances too and it's time for their voices to get heard.
So without further ado, let me introduce you to my badasses. All right. First off, we have Kate
Venable, the aforementioned lawyer. She is our head of legal. She keeps us out of trouble and,
you know, helps victims with their own specific cases. Next, we have Rachel Lamp, who's my COO.
She is amazing and wonderful and has more empathy, I think, than any other human being
I've ever met in my entire life. Coming next, we have Marlee Farlow, who's our CMO. She is creative.
She is fun. She is organized, which is the opposite of me. I'm very disorganized. Next,
we have Allie Barnes, who is our CTO, who explains all the things that, you know, you guys talk about
when I have dumb questions and teaches me a little bit about tech. And then finally,
we have Timmy Doomsday, who is our CISO, however that's said. And he is a blast. He's hilarious
to be around, and he is really focused on making sure that we have all of our security locked on
tight. And I'm going to be asking them some questions, and you can ask them some questions.
Let's get this thing started. Hey!
Hi! What's happening?
So I just did a really brief recap of what we've, you know, done thus far and what we've
accomplished with Badass. But I would love to hear... let's start this out, you know,
on the positive. I want to hear y'all brag and talk about your favorite thing that has happened
thus far with Badass. What is your favorite accomplishment? Let's start with Rachel.
I'd say my favorite accomplishment with Badass is definitely getting that law passed in Ohio.
It absolutely was life-changing. It was so great to be able to take something that would assist so
many victims, because a lot of us, like in the beginning, we were based in Ohio. So being able
to have a course of action for our immediate base was just really life-changing.
Yeah. Kate, I know you've gotten a lot. Yeah, the law was awesome. Never really expected
that to happen. In the same vein of things I never expected to happen was, you know,
my best friend is like, let's start a non-profit. And here we are. I really,
like when I went to law school, never thought ever that this was anything remotely close to
what I would be doing. And it's so cool. And it's so awesome. And it's so much more interesting than
half of what all my friends do. So I really enjoy it. All right, Marley.
So as a team, I'd say like every time we help a victim is just like a huge accomplishment when I
see one of our victims come into our group and let us know that they actually received justice.
Definitely something to rejoice about. And then on a personal level,
my favorite professor from my university asked me to come and teach a course with her
to like hundreds of students about this issue. I did it once and she's asked me to come back
definitely. And I'm just super pumped about that. All right, Allie.
So favorite accomplishment that I've gotten to like be around and witness is definitely
TITS for DEF CON was great to witness. And on a personal level, you know, just getting to,
I think one of my favorite things has been like the cybersecurity awareness month that we did
and stuff like that has been my favorite.
All right. And finally, Timmy, the newest member of this team.
Right. So I'm like the squid, right? So, you know, my biggest accomplishment, honestly,
is to just be here with these wonderful people on this panel today. You know, I started out,
Rachel recruited me as just a, you know, humdrum volunteer working victim intake,
and now I get to sit here with these wonderful people and talk to all you.
All right. So now that we've gone over the past a little bit, let's talk about the present.
I know lately we've been a little bit absent on our social media pages. We've been taking
just a teensy bit of a hiatus, although we are still reachable in case of emergency,
if victims need to reach out. But so where have we been?
Well, I think we all took a break to reflect on pretty much what we wanted badass to be
in the future going forward. And also, we were just really out of spoons. As most of us are
victims of some sort of sexual abuse or image abuse. It really, it takes a toll to continuously
have to, you know, go through and reopen those wounds and assist victims.
Mm-hmm.
We also...
Oh, go on.
Sorry. I was just gonna say, and I think like, we're not, I mean, while we do a lot of remote
stuff, we're not immune from, you know, the effects of quarantine that everybody else is
feeling. Like, we're all still here trying to figure out what in the world it means to work
from home and how we have to change our model. Like, nobody knows what, like, the next day brings
in terms of COVID and all of that. So, I think that went a lot, like, went into our decision to
just, like, take a step back because we're all trying to figure it out along with everybody else.
Yeah. I think a big thing also is that we, you know, we started this and it just blew up.
And we were just learning as fast as we could, you know, the best ways to go about doing things
and to run an organization at this size. I mean, we went from being a group of 10 of us to a global
thing. And, you know, we were just scrambling to catch up, but nothing, we didn't have any,
you know, procedures and things in place that were long-term sustainable. We were just doing
whatever we needed to do in that moment and we needed to organize. We needed to figure
out the best ways to do things. Yeah. And I think, like, because of a lot of us being victims, like,
we just coming into this organization came into it, like, crazy passionate and wanting to take on,
like, anything and everything. So, a lot of us were, like, I'm in marketing, but then I'm going
out and trying to do law enforcement training and I'm doing classes at colleges and, like,
taking on so much because I want to and I'm excited to help and move this forward.
And then, of course, you know, burnout comes into play and we have to look at ourselves as an
organization and look at what we want to do, what we want to focus on and do well and then expand
from there. So, exactly. And you mentioned law enforcement training. So, let's talk a little bit
about the laws and responses from law enforcement. Just quick thumbs up or thumbs down from the team
here. Do you think that law enforcement is doing an excellent job of handling reports
and complaints about when it comes to non-consensual image abuse? What do we think?
All right. So, let's talk about that. What do you think can be done to change that?
Training, for one. Yeah, well, like, for me, as a victim, going through my own personal case,
it took nine times to report my own victimization and a lot of the reason was nobody knew that they
handled cybercrimes and that they didn't have cybercrime units and they told me to call the
FBI and it just, like, blew my mind. I'm looking at a statute saying, like, it literally says
number four, local law enforcement handles this issue. So, like, why is there this disconnect
between you understanding that you can do something for victims? And, yeah. So,
I'm just going to say training is one of the biggest issues here.
Okay. Something else that I noticed, and maybe, Kate, you can speak to this a little bit more,
but, like, when I was first brought on, you know, I was working on building resources for victims
and one of that was going through and just making the law a little bit more digestible
and it seems like a lot of the laws that are on the books can't even decide what a nude is and
that seems to be, like, the basis of the entire conversation. So, if we can't even agree on a
vocabulary to talk about these things, how are we going to push effective legislation?
Yeah, I mean, I would definitely agree with that. Like, it's not only just, like, what is a nude,
but I know Marianne Franks has talked about this a lot in a lot of the stuff that she does with
CCRI and, I mean, most of the laws have these intent to harm clauses and basically what it
says, basically you have to prove that the poster intended to harm the victim in whatever way by
posting it and it's next to impossible to prove and it's next to impossible to enforce.
Maliciously, yeah. Yeah, that vocabulary, malicious.
Yeah, it makes it pretty much impossible to enforce at all and I think,
um, yeah, I mean, it just goes on what you said, Timmy, like, we have to agree on something and
then we write these laws and we think they sound all good and great and with an intent to harm
makes it, I wouldn't say useless per se, but it makes it hard. And it even complicates it further
once you get into crossing state lines or country lines because the language of each state law is so
entirely different and, you know, it's hard enough getting police to want to pursue
justice for these victims, but once it crosses state lines, they just give up pretty much
altogether. Yeah, the language has definitely been an issue. Speaking of language, most people know
about the type of abuse that we're fighting against. They know it as revenge porn.
What do you guys think about just that wording?
I'm gonna go. I hate it. Like, I get it. It's like, the media kind of jumped on that term
and sensationalized it, especially with the fappening and things like that happening, but
when you really break it down, revenge porn specifically deals with, like, intimate partners
abusing one another, and it really only represents 8% of non-consensual image abuse cases.
So I don't like it for that reason, but, like, more than that, the term revenge automatically
implies that the victim did something wrong. So there's, like, victim blaming built into it,
and then the term pornography also has a false sense of consent built into it because generally
people who are creating pornography content are consenting to be taped and shared, which none of
these victims are. So personally, I don't like the term. I will use it in cases where I'm trying to
get some awareness out and people aren't understanding what I'm talking about, so more
as a reference point, or if I'm specifically dealing with somebody whose former partner
or current partner is abusing them. Yeah, I like the way that you just dropped that stat out there,
like, it's only 8%. Are there any more stats that you think are really important to share?
Actually, since you are our stats person, you know this stuff better than any of us.
Stats on stats. Yeah, it's actually kind of interesting because there's not a ton of
resources dedicated to researching this topic. Like, CCRI is amazing. They so far have put out
the most research on the topic. I did recently see one that came out in February that said
that the rate in which this is happening is one in three people are being victimized,
and that was just two months ago. But that was geared more towards European countries
and wasn't a worldwide view. The most recent stat we have as far as worldwide is concerned
is 2017, which said it was one in eight people. And I'm sure we'll get into lots of reasons why
that is rising quickly, but it's hard to say. I'm going to go with probably something closer
to one in five, one in six as of currently, but it's something that we really need research on.
And then I know another interesting fact is that, you know, this affects three out of four women.
Victims are women in most cases, or female-identifying people. But in cases where
the victim does identify as male, it's 90% of those cases incorporate sex torsion as well
as the image abuse. So that's just some facts. And yeah, those are scary, scary figures to hear.
Yeah, that many people this is happening to, this is a huge problem. You know, but the biggest thing
that we hear when we discuss these sorts of things with the public or in the press,
immediately the first thing we hear is, well, this wouldn't be a problem if you just didn't
take those pictures. And so we hear it so much. I know we all have a ton of different responses
that we go to. So let's share all those responses. Let's just get that out of the way.
Rachel, I can see it. You're about to explode with things to say.
I have so many words for people who say such things, but I'm going to keep it professional-ish.
It is not the victim's fault. Like, it's 2020. We have cell phones attached to us. They're basically
part of us. It only makes sense that, you know, people would be using their cell phones in their
sex lives as well. I mean, we use it to record when we sleep, like to tell us when we fart,
like when we talk in our sleep. Like, of course, it's going to be incorporated into
sexual relationships as well. So I think the thought of excluding that or blaming the person
because of them using and expressing their sexuality within a consenting
form and that being abused, it's just, it's senseless.
One thing that bugs me is that people always say that when the fact is we,
you don't even need to take a nude to become a victim anymore.
You know, I see deepfakes are already being brought up here in the chat,
and that is, you know, something we have been monitoring. So what should we do about the
deepfakes? Do we see that becoming more of a problem? Yeah, I mean, I feel like the media
recently has just realized that that's a thing. But it's something I think our organization has
been talking about amongst ourselves and within the community of victims and activists for over
a year now, I would say. And then all of a sudden, like within the last, like, I think six months or
so, the media is like, oh, deepfakes. And I'm just like, looking at the headlines, like, duh,
where have y'all been? But yeah, no, I mean, it's, it doesn't necessarily mean you took a nude or
anything anymore. Like, it means some jerk put your face on some random naked person and is now
exploiting you on the internet. I believe our first deepfake victim came to us about a year
and a half ago. And since then, it's, it's, it's going to continue to rise, like, human
curiosity, and then us just being bored and quarantined. People have a lot of free time on
their hands. Deepfakes are going to continue to be on the rise. Yeah, I'm actually interested to
find out what the stats are on that, just because, like, being quarantined, people are just stuck in
their computers. And there's all these apps coming out all the time that allow people to create
deepfakes. I know that there's that one, I think, a year ago, or a little less than a year ago, that
came out and was kind of making waves. And I really wish I, like, I knew how to how to stop that or
any advice to prevent that from happening. But it's just, it's cropping up everywhere. And so
quickly that I'm just, I'm not, I'm at a loss, personally, as to what to do.
And I mean, it doesn't help that, you know, the, think about the processing power it takes to do
some of that stuff. It wasn't just sitting on your desk two or three years ago. Whereas now,
I have a laptop that could probably generate a deepfake in an hour or two, you know, with the
right settings. And never underestimate, you know, someone that's time rich and money poor,
which is a lot of us right now. Yeah, I was gonna say that's exactly it. People have so much more
time to write these tools and stuff now. Yeah. But beyond deepfakes, I mean, that's a, it still
is a problem that is growing. And it's something we're anticipating. But you know, the majority of
the people coming to us, you know, their images that have been leaked, or something that they
took, or allowed a trusted partner to take, and that were leaked without their consent.
So say someone wants to, you know, still continue doing that, which we encourage,
we encourage that sort of thing. But we want them to do it safely.
What tips do you have for people to sext and take nudes and not become victims?
So there's a few things I feel like that we tell people. And I mean, I feel like this is
the perfect time where I love how we do Cybersecurity Awareness Month, because I feel
like it's a perfect time to like, flood everyone with all the tips every day. And Rachel did such
a good job last year. Yeah, I almost said yesterday, last year, putting stuff together. But
you know, basic things are like, simple things, but you know, turning off the location on your
phone and making sure your address is not attached to your data that's coming from your camera roll.
Pay attention to what apps you're using and what data they're storing of yours.
Something that a lot of people don't think of that I've seen people get bit on is like Snapchat
memories. You take a picture on Snapchat and you think it goes away, but Snapchat saves it and is
like, trying to remind you about it later. But all it takes at that point is someone to get your
Snapchat password if you don't have everything protected properly. So those things, you know,
things we say, keep two-factor on for all of the things that you can. You know, pay attention to
what's in the pictures that you're sending to people that you don't know or trust. Make sure
there's maybe no random box in the background with your home address on it. Yeah, those are
the things come to mind off the top of my head. Speaking of making sure you know what's in your
pictures, exit data. You want to make sure to wipe that so you're not accidentally sharing
location and stuff like that. What else? Oh, I was just, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. No,
no, I was done. Go. No, I was just gonna say like, so in my day job,
when I'm lawyering and stuff, this has like actually really helped my practice and me helping
victims and, you know, like just raising awareness in general as to like how to protect your own
privacy, not just in terms of image abuse, but like if there's domestic violence or stalking
or some other, you know, like menacing or whatever crime you can think of that involves
somebody being creepy, like it's basic privacy info. Change your passwords, turn on two-factor,
turn off your location, don't give your significant other like unfettered access to
where you are 24-7 because that's creepy anyway, but that's neither here nor there. But I mean,
it's just, I mean, basically what Allie said, like it's stuff that people don't think about
and with the way that all these companies like Google and Apple and whoever like track
our data these days, it's important to know what data we're sharing and who is seeing it
and what control we have over who it goes to and where it goes to and when.
And also, sorry, I was going to say to add on to that, you could, you can simply
watermark your photos with the name of the person you're sending them to.
And also you can, you can create kind of a contract between each other by like asking
your partner explicitly like not to send these photos or it will cause me harm. Those are really
important words because we know that that's how the laws really frame them is that intent to harm.
So if you can just check that box immediately and screenshot it, keep it in a file with their name,
then I think that would really do a lot in the way of prevention and also
assisting in your own legal case if it comes to that point.
Yeah. I always want to remind people, you know, you want to think about the future
and always hope for the best, prepare for the worst. You know, make that screen, that contract
screenshot at your lawyer. If they ever need one, we'll thank you for that. So yeah, that's really
important. I know that we had discussed Snapchat and other various apps that are being used to
share these images. And what, you know, responsibility do they have, do you think,
to, you know, prevent this sort of thing from happening? And what are you seeing
platforms and companies doing that they're just falling short and letting,
you know, victims, victimization happen on their platform?
I mean, do you want the real answer?
I mean, from my perspective, like, Facebook could like respond to subpoenas that are from
not law enforcement, maybe, possibly, at some point in time, that might be helpful.
Like, if somebody sends stuff during mess, like using Facebook Messenger, it's next to impossible
to get anything useful for court. And you're, I'm not law enforcement, so they don't care.
I mean, other people can speak to what they've experienced, but that's the first thing that
comes to mind for me. Well, the other thing that, the first thing that comes to mind for me are
hosting companies, right? There's usually a blanket AUP policy that says,
don't post these kinds of things. But image abuse, if there's, especially if there's not
minors involved, right, they may or may not be on their abuse priority list. So I think it's
important to hold these hosting companies accountable and keep letting them know when
they're willingly hosting, you know, websites and clients that are committing image abuse,
like Cloudflare. Oh, wait, wait, what did we have planned for Cloudflare when we said that
at some point? I just want to throw that out there. Yeah, just, we're waving, we're saying hi.
Now, we've run into these issues with Cloudflare for a very long time.
They have repeatedly, you know, and it's not just them, but they are the most egregious when it
comes to this. What, you know, other apps, let's call them out. Like, who is just doing a really
shitty job of letting victim, of letting victimization happen on their platform? And
versus who do you think is doing all right? Like, who's actually trying?
I think that Twitter is quite a shame. They could really respond to reports. I remember that there
was an actual Twitter account that was for one of these hosting sites. And it took two years for it
to be removed. And they openly boasted about having specifically leaked images and revenge porn.
So, Twitter.
Anyone else?
Twitter. I can speak to a couple of ones that have at least been trying. And mind you, their
methods aren't perfect. And obviously, victimization still happens quite a bit on their
platform. But at least they are a either trying to address the problem or prevent it. You know,
Facebook, they came out with a pilot to try to prevent images from being uploaded in the first
place. And yes, it's Facebook, and nobody's going to trust them. As I believe the press, you know,
kind of twisted it to, you know, send Facebook your nudes, which is the worst idea ever. But
they were trying, they addressed that there was an issue. And, you know, they acknowledged it,
and they are trying something. And the other one that has been actually good to work with,
and I know this is, you know, a bit of a controversial opinion, but Pornhub has
had their moderators involved with us from the very beginning, and given us a direct line to
making sure that things get taken down really quickly, as soon as, you know, anyone discovers
there's a problem. And no one has even, you know, really tried to make sure the problem never
happens in the first place yet. But I'm waiting to see that happen next. And I'm really excited
about that. Anyone else? Want to call someone out? Want to call a platform? Start a fight? Let's do
it. I mean, we've had issues with Instagram forever. Like, reporting. I mean, I personally
know someone who, it's not necessarily, like, revenge porn or image abuse per se, but it started,
like, his victimization started with Instagram. And it's been years. And it's taken thousands of
people reporting, and millions of dollars extorted for them to even do anything. They finally, like,
CNN got the story recently. But other than that, like, I mean, it's insane. Like, everybody I know
who has been victimized on Instagram has had the worst time even getting them to listen.
Yeah, and that's a shame because I feel like a lot of, like, high school leaps end up on Instagram.
And the fact that they're not very responsive in a very fast way, really, it's a shame because
that stuff should be snuffed out relatively quickly, you know.
I have one. Reddit. So, like, they try sometimes. My qualm with them is that they don't,
they have moderators who do remove content, which is great, but they don't retain that content so
that victims can claim it and use it as evidence, which is kind of a huge problem. Like, and where,
I'm in Florida, and it's a stackable offense here. In my case, my image was posted on Reddit and also
on another site. And the person who did it was only facing a misdemeanor because Reddit took
down the image, and I had no proof that it was ever there. So, you know, I reached out to them
directly and asked them, like, what's going on? Can you put something in place? If you can flag
images as non-consensual image abuse, then you should also be able to, like, keep them in a
repository that's saved for law enforcement to contact and get later. But alas, there's nothing.
Absolutely. And how could we forget Discord?
Discord.
That's actually the first time I ever came to Discord was because of my images being in
an entire revenge porn Discord server, which is lovely. And they also remove content without
preserving any of the data. You just have to really hope that the officer you're working with
is able to send the preservation of data quick enough before that content is just gone forever.
Smash cut to the stream getting dropped immediately.
I mean, and that's not even in just, you know, image abuse cases with adults. We've run into
that issue as well. A lot of our work, you know, does involve CSAM, which is exploitation of
children. And so it's been really frustrating to see companies drop the ball on that a lot.
So we've discussed, you know, the platforms and their responsibility. And I know a little
bit ago, I just saw a really great talk, actually, you know, just a couple hours ago,
it was in Crypto Village, and it was regarding Section 230, as well as the upcoming, you know,
Earn It Act, which is gaining momentum, you know, through the process. And, you know,
what are your thoughts on those? Yeah, I mean, with CDA 230, it has a lot of nuance
to it. It has some good points. And it also has, it also creates loopholes that I don't know,
I don't want to like criticize it too much, because I'm not sure that the loopholes were
necessarily intentional. But I mean, when we were talking about Cloudflare earlier,
I mean, their web hosts aren't responsible for the content that they're hosting because of laws
like CDA 230. And while they are meant to be helpful, like they also create more problems.
And I just, it needs to be retooled so that it's a better law and has less room for wiggle,
like less wiggle room. You know, the biggest argument that I've really heard when it comes to
that, you know, and a lot of what our work is, whenever we're trying to talk about legislation
regarding this form of abuse, the biggest argument I hear about is about how, you know,
NCP is, it's a free speech thing. And people claim that, you know, this is free speech.
And what are your thoughts on that? Well,
I think that nudity and nude photographs could be free speech, but once it enters into the realm
of harming people, that's when it exits, you know, free speech up until a point.
But what, at what point do we consider things to be harmful? I think it comes down to the consent,
personally. Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think that's where the, I think that's part of the
argument behind the intent to harm thing, intent to harm clause, is that's what makes it not free
speech anymore. But we can't define it that broadly and make it that vague because it becomes
unenforceable. Free speech is complicated. It's way more complicated than the average person would
think it is. And yes, we have free speech, but it doesn't mean that you can say what you want
and do what you want without repercussions. And it doesn't mean that, it also doesn't mean that
just because it's free speech, it's the right or moral thing to do. Like, there's a difference
between what our country allows us to say and what is morally and ethically correct.
Yeah, legality doesn't always equal morality, nor vice versa. Yep. So yeah, I know this,
I've seen quite a few questions in the chat. Also, big props to my amazing husband, TC,
if you haven't noticed, he has been helping us field these questions. He's making sure that we
get them. And any messages that I might be missing, because I'm also moderating the panel
and don't always have time to look at this chat, he's making sure we see them. And just basically
being the most amazing personal assistant in the world. So thank you, TC. So I would like to start
addressing some audience questions. All right, and the first one is, given the type of victims
that you help, do you find that you as an organization are now targeted in order to gain
access to lists of clients by harassers and such like? And they aimed that toward Ali.
So I mean, let's start that off with you. Yeah. So I would say it definitely, you know,
makes us more at risk. I don't know if I would say that it's for people wanting to get a list
of our victims or clients, people that we help so much as it's people that are pissed off that
we're doing what we're doing. And they kind of, you know, feel this need to, like, plot a revenge
against us kind of thing. We're taking away their control, right? So they're revenging revenge porn.
Revenge. I mean, I think Caitlin can tell you this. We have a whole lot of trolls.
And yeah. Can we talk real quick, though? Like, speaking of trolls, can we just talk real quick
about tits for DEF CON from last year? And how that went? If anyone remembers that.
And I remember. Yeah, that was fun. People were mad.
But yeah, I mean, we've gotten, like, I mean, yeah, we've gotten trolls.
We've gotten, it's not just trolls. You can only use, you can only use money you've made in InfoSec
to come to DEF CON. That's the only money you're allowed to use. Yeah, whore money should be spent
on poor things. Exactly. Just what we did. Right?
I like that. Yeah. And we've had, like, members of the org be, you know, threatened,
re-victimized, doxxed, like, all kinds of things. So I'd say, yeah, 100%. People do target us.
They try to. And, you know, we all support one another. And do our best to fight against that,
too. I just wanted to show off the whore dollars, the stickers that we had for DEF CON last year.
That says, I spent my whore money at DEF CON. And she's got a titty out. Her favorite one.
Just one. I think I have three whore dollars. Three whore dollars? What are you going to buy?
What whore things are you going to buy? Something special. I don't know where it came from.
I don't know. All right. So the next question. All right. So we discussed,
you know, do we see ourselves more of a target? I think so. We have had people try to infiltrate
our, you know, private spaces that we have for victims. We have a lot of different things that
we do to make sure that when people contact us, they are who they say they are. You know,
because there have been some, you know, threats made of people trying to gain access to victims
or, you know, looking to, you know, there's a whole separate there's a whole separate
fetish for people that enjoy seeing victims reactions when they find out their photos are
out there. They like to get the screenshots of them notifying victims, hey, your pictures
are out there and they freak out. You know, and I had somebody tried to do that to me,
actually, on Twitter rather recently. And I just made fun of them. It was great,
because I no longer give a shit. But that is a thing. So gaining access to victims and watching
them in their most vulnerable states, you know, that's the how awful is it that people get off
that? Just saying. Next question is, what are some privacy tips that parents can pass on to
their kids or teens? You know, recognition of exploitative behavior, protecting oneself online
from malicious X, so on and so forth. I'm going to like repeat what we said a little bit earlier.
And just like, in general, have a talk about consent with your kids and your teens,
even starting at a really, really young age, like consent applies to everything. It's never
not sexy. And it's never weird to bring up that, like, I want you to do this or that with my body
or images of my body, and only that. So yeah, just impress upon them the importance of consent
and having those conversations with their partners. So if they are sharing images, which
it probably will be, they do need to have those conversations about what
is allowed to happen with those images that they do share.
Yeah. Oh, sorry. No, go on. You were clapping. I was gonna say, do not force your kids to hug
people. That, I can't agree more. You can start talking about consent at a very early age.
And it's not just consent that you want to cover. You also want to cover what your agency is.
Having agency over your own body, how to say no, how to speak out when something is making you
uncomfortable. These are conversations that people don't want to have because they're
uncomfortable, but they need to. Because having them later after a victimizing incident or after
trauma is going to be way more awkward, I promise. Not to mention traumatic.
No, and I'm just going to pop in real fast too, like, because you're right,
consent and agency go hand in hand. And actually just kind of recently,
in the last couple of years, there's a new kind of method of looking at consent
called the triangle of consent. I encourage everybody to look it up. But that incorporates
power, agency, and communication, and all three of those things come together to create consent.
So I think that's a really good starting point for talking to your kids and teens.
I also think that a really important addition to that is once your kids reach the teen years and
you notice that they start to look at pornography, I think that talking about consensual pornography
and what that looks like and what they should be recognizing and what they should be consuming,
I think that's really important as well. Yeah, I think that, yeah, having just healthy
talks surrounding sex is really important, but it's also really important to talk to them about,
you know, security and things like that, because they, you know, that is,
this is a really big place of where both things, you know, intersect. Because...
I was gonna say, I agree with that. Like, you know, I mean, if your child isn't comfortable
doing something with their boyfriend or their girlfriend, they should be able to say,
yo, I'm not comfortable with this. Like, teaching your kids the way to stand up for themselves
will go a long way. And, I mean, I know it's not necessarily, like, image abuse related,
but, I mean, it really is, like, all about teaching consent. And recognizing threats.
And, like, teaching, just teaching kids to be careful when they're online and talking to people,
when they're on TikTok and interacting with people that they think are one person,
but they might be somebody else. Like, don't put your private information or your personal
information anywhere. Just general abstract, I think, is really important to start that
conversation as soon as your kids have access to a device.
Mm-hmm. All right, next question, and I was told to ask this one next, is Jordan White wanted
to know, they have a famous friend named, you know, I'm going to redact the name because
the Streisand effect was real, and she has a very bad stalker who has now been stalking
my other friends who have worked for her, provided outfits, business, etc. Should she
contact Badass for this or something? She and her friends are very lost.
Um, how would you address that? Yeah, contact us. Yeah, definitely.
Kimmy, you're the one that said we need to take this question.
Absolutely. I mean, I think, I think if there's like that public cry for help,
I definitely think that that's something you should contact us with.
And that's the whole reason we have this org.
Absolutely. I do want to mention that you're, um, that while we do focus squarely on image
abuse, okay, which is non-consensual leaking of nude images, it also has to do with upskirting
any sort of non-consensual behavior online or offline that involves images. Um, you know,
we get approached a lot when it comes to questions about stalking, about, um, harassment, about,
you know, abuse. And while we might not have every answer,
um, we do know a lot of people that we can talk to, um, and we will always do our best
to address these issues as much as we can. Um, so yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think the best way to sum it up, and I actually think Caitlin's the one that said that,
said this to me when I first started, was if you think you need to contact badass,
if that's even a question in your mind, reach out.
Yeah, I mean, even if we can't necessarily, like, even if you don't think that it
pertains to what we do, odds are somebody in this group will be able to help you. Um,
somebody has experienced what you experienced. Somebody is, somebody's there. Um, that's the
beauty of our group, is you're not alone, and you always have somebody to talk to.
I will say that when this happens to you online, especially, you know, when it happens to you
in my situation, I didn't understand the internet at all. I, uh, barely went outside Google and
Facebook. And so when it happened to me, I felt really, really helpless and overwhelmed and alone.
Above all, I felt isolated and scared because I didn't know who was doing this to me. I didn't
know who had been helping them, who all these people making these horrible comments about my
body. I didn't know who they were. So when I turned to somebody for help, it might be one
of those people that's just looking to make fun of me more, um, or kick me when I'm down, when
I'm feeling vulnerable. So I, you know, just knowing that you're not alone and that there
is someone that you can talk to that you can trust and who isn't going to be judging you and
isn't going to be re-victimizing you is important. And that can make a huge difference.
So yeah, uh, that is absolutely have them, um, contact us. They can do so with any of our Twitter
handles. Um, and we'll put those in the chat and, you know, or through our website, www.badassarmy.org,
which also I saw one of the questions was, how can people support you guys? And, um,
how can people support y'all? And, uh, the best way they can do that is through
our website. We have some donation, uh, links that they can use as well as just
letting people know we're here. Um, so next question, uh, what about cases outside of the
U S like Ireland or the UK? Um, we have a UK group. Um, we know people, um, I mean,
our organization has contacts like internationally for, I mean, we can,
we can find someone who can help you pretty much is what my answer to that would be. Um, our,
our net is wide and we can, um, we all know enough people who know people who can point you
where you need to go. I just want to mention that the U S is really far behind everybody else.
That's what I was going to say. The UK, they have a bunch of orgs, their laws are built stronger.
Um, and Australia, oh my gosh, Australia is just really ahead of this. They have an entire
section of their government that is just, um, you know, it's a government funded organization
to prevent this. Uh, and they're already tackling things that the U S is still,
you know, most people don't acknowledge that they're things that exist like deep fakes or,
you know, how this all, you know, they're really starting to make things happen in Australia. So
yeah, we have a lot of, we have a lot of ways to go.
That's literally what I was going to say. So yay.
All right. Um, somebody said it really comes down to this. How can a law or set of laws be
created or phrased to fight this issue without being used to clamp down on speech or sex workers,
similar to FOSTA-SESTA, which is, um, you know, something that by all means, it was meant to help
people that are getting victimized and, um, you know, help prevent this sort of victimization by,
you know, in making platforms, um, accountable, but at the same time,
it hasn't really been used for that. Has it? No. What it's been used for is to attack and harm sex
workers. Um, and it has a body count at this point. So how do you think that we should, um,
be addressing this in a way that isn't going to either, A, be used to harm sex workers or, um,
B, be used to infringe on our free speech? Yeah. Uh, that's really hard. Uh, but like my
first initial thought is to just, is to kind of focus that language on like, uh, or I guess focus
the law itself on proof of consent. So like you're responsible if you're posting content to
prove that the subject and that content has consented to being in it. Like maybe if there's,
if that comes into play somewhere that will help a lot. Like requiring websites that allow
pornography to get a release from every person that is actively participating on screen?
Yeah. I mean, that wouldn't be any different than other websites that posts. I mean,
yeah. Like just verify the user. Um, I mean, I think the U.S. speaking of being behind and
how other countries deal with it, I think the U.S. over criminalizes that behavior. Um,
from my personal opinion on it, not my necessarily like legal opinion on it, but,
um, yeah, I think there's a way to write these laws that doesn't make it like that makes
consensual sex work legal and doesn't criminalize it and lets people do what people are going to do.
Um, I mean, we're a country founded on privacy. Let people do what they want.
And also a large portion of our, um, victim base are sex workers because, you know, you want your
photos in a consensual way to be released to a certain market in a certain bubble. And once
it releases outside of that, it can be just as harmful as for anyone else, you know? So I think
that these, um, sorts of laws help and also harm, you know, it's double-ended. Yeah, Rachel,
that's a good point too, is, um, I mean, you're, it's just because you're a sex worker doesn't
mean that your copyrighted personal work isn't your intellectual property that you get to keep
and that you're entitled to. It shouldn't matter. And consent for one doesn't consent to, to,
if. Consent for one doesn't translate to consent for many, allowing a certain, I mean, even
transactional consent is consent. And that is the thing that matters. And it's just as traumatic
to have people that you didn't want to be seeing your images or, you know, often with sex workers,
we find them doxxed, um, along with their images. So it's double the trauma right there.
And I mean, I think it's the ultimate irony that we're speaking at a hacker conference where we
talk about how broken copyright laws are in the DMCA. And at the same time, you know, that's one
of our, as an organization, biggest tools to fight some of this, you know, is the copyright laws.
Oh yeah. Um, hey, you know, we have a really important question I do want to address. Uh,
this is from a friend of mine, Weems. Um, and they asked what should happen is allowing rules
that help victims without removing liability protections platforms outside of CSAM and CP.
I deeply, deeply concerned about the bills that have been proposed like earn it, which is
definitely a pro-censorship law and even more worrying LAED Act, which would outlaw encryption
in the US. And I want to know what the panel thinks about this. Um, anyone else want to take
that one first or sort of cool. If I jump, you can do it. All right, cool. Um, you know,
I kind of started in on this one with, you know, uh, foster SESTA and how, um, these laws they're
you one, they're using CSAM as just, you know, a way to kind of put a friendly spin on this law.
Like if, you know, your lawmakers aren't passing it, that's because they hate kids. Um, but really
when it comes down to it, it's, um, removing the privacy of every user. Uh, and the fact is we've
seen them be put in place and we see exactly how little they actually help the things that they're
supposed to be, um, preventing. Um, what these laws are going to be doing is destroying censorship
and freedom. And I don't think that's right. I hate these laws. They are, I feel like they've
been, uh, bought and paid for by, you know, certain, um, you know, very specific lobbies.
And I think they're bullshit and we've definitely, everybody needs to get involved. If there's
anything that badass has proved, it's that everybody can get involved when it comes to
legislation. And if you care about something, you need to start calling and making stuff happen. And
you need to call your, um, lawmakers and talk to them about the earn it act and that, you know,
encryption isn't really important. It should stay something that we have available.
Yeah. I mean, Oh, sorry, Timmy, go ahead.
Real quick. I'll take a, I'll take a line out of, uh, uh, talk Corey Doctorow gave at DefCon
a couple of years ago about the war on general purpose computing. And something that I think
these lawmakers forget is that it is not possible to make a general purpose computer that does
everything except the one thing that you don't want it to do. Um, that's just not how computers
work. That's not how math works. And that is a nuance that is lost by the old white men writing
these laws. Yeah. And, um, that's a really good point. Oh, real quick. We got like a minute. So,
Oh, I was just going to say, um, I thought you were telling me to stop. Um, sorry. Yeah. Uh,
that's a really good point to me, but also like to go off what Caitlin was saying, like,
um, there is a balance between free speech and censorship. And I think, um, if we're going to
start doing things like outlawing encryption and censoring material, like we really need to
take that into consideration and without boring y'all with Conwell jurisprudence, um, you know,
that's, it's not something to be taken lightly. And I think we really need to examine how we do
this and what precedent it could set for the future. I think Kate just really wanted to say
jurisprudence. I did. Okay. All right. As long as we got that cleared up goal achieved. All right,
real quick. Um, we are going to be going into the voice chat. I know I am. Um, cause frankly,
y'all can't make me shut up. So yeah. Um, but I really quick, uh, I just want to see if anyone
has one final message they'd like to share with the people watching and listening to this at
DEF CON today. Anyone final message, Rachel. Um, I'd say, um, everyone, please reach out. If you
have a question, comment, concern, we would love to hear you and we would love to, um, integrate
you into our, our group of like, you know, sorry, I mean, I cut out the webcam. Um, I really feel
that, you know, there's a place for everyone and you do not have to go through image abuse alone.
We're here for you. And yeah. Oh, me. Yeah. Okay. I'll keep it quick. Uh,
be awesome to one another. Fuck cloud flare. Black lives matter.
All right. Allie.
Going to echo Timmy's fuck cloud flare comment. Um, thanks for listening to us,
reach out to us if y'all need anything. We're always around to answer questions and,
um, we definitely are going to keep talking about this stuff. So.
Marley. Uh, ditto on what everybody said. And to add to it, um, yeah, let's please keep talking
about this, uh, conversation about how we can make laws that don't infringe on, um, speech and,
um, encryption, but that will help victims. I think that's a really important conversation to
have and your voices are really helpful. Okay. Do you just want us to do this again?
No, ditto, uh, black lives matter and consent is key. I'll always get it.
I'm gonna end this, uh, whole thing up by saying thank you to everyone out there watching. Thank
you to the, you know, everyone organizing DEF CON this year. I know it has been crazy and chaotic
and you haven't do a lot of things that is, that are brand new. And I just want to say it's been
wonderful thus far. I miss you all. I can't wait to see you in Vegas next year. Um, and meanwhile,
uh, you know, life is short, have all the orgasms, consensual, healthy orgasms,
or cookies, depending on what you want. Um, and just stay badass. Peace.