WEBVTT 00:11.220 --> 00:12.220 Go ahead. 00:13.320 --> 00:14.520 All right. 00:14.920 --> 00:16.300 Hi, everybody. 00:17.380 --> 00:20.820 Wow, I can't believe I'm getting to speak to so many of you at once. 00:20.820 --> 00:22.100 This is really exciting. 00:22.620 --> 00:24.820 If you didn't know, my name is Caitlin Bowden. 00:25.200 --> 00:31.720 I am the CEO and founder of BADASS, which stands for Battling Against Demeaning and Abusive Selfish Sharing. 00:32.560 --> 00:39.440 I'm going to be doing a brief intro real quick of who we are, what we do, and then I'm going to introduce you to my amazing team. 00:40.300 --> 00:42.840 So here we go. 00:43.020 --> 00:52.260 Well, BADASS started out originally because I found out that I myself was a victim and, you know, I saw the scope of the issue, how big it is. 00:52.440 --> 01:03.480 I was a victim of non-consensual pornography or non-consensual intimate images being shared online when I didn't want them to be. 01:03.480 --> 01:13.180 I started researching the websites that were surrounding this kind of stuff and saw how big the problem was and how there were no resources for this sort of stuff. 01:13.520 --> 01:17.640 I got really sick of feeling helpless, so I started reaching out to other victims. 01:18.040 --> 01:31.860 I kind of wanted to crowdsource justice and, you know, I found all these amazing, wonderful human beings who were just as just as sick of being as helpless as I was. 01:32.000 --> 01:36.260 And we just got together and started brainstorming different ways we could fight back. 01:37.100 --> 01:49.960 Now, before all this happened, I was a bartender and didn't have any experience in any sort of, you know, tech field or really much of anything other than making the best Long Island you'll ever have in your entire life. 01:50.860 --> 02:05.520 You know, but I went from being a bartender to, you know, helping introduce legislation in the state of Ohio that would criminalize revenge porn, which we did get cast, you know, to organizing, you know, a huge group and helping out thousands of victims, 02:05.520 --> 02:11.740 helping them remove their photos and collect evidence and seizing justice. 02:12.920 --> 02:27.520 You know, and then I got to go and introduce a federal bill, you know, which is still, you know, going through the process, but hopefully pretty soon it might be a criminal act in the United States, which is what we'd like to see. 02:28.460 --> 02:30.320 You know, and now I get to talk to you guys. 02:30.320 --> 02:34.240 So really, this is like the peak of my career thus far. 02:35.600 --> 02:38.040 You know, but why am I speaking to you? 02:38.040 --> 02:38.820 This is DEF CON. 02:38.820 --> 02:42.460 You don't want to hear about, you know, legislation right now. 02:42.460 --> 02:45.980 You're supposed to be here talking about hacking and tech. 02:47.140 --> 02:53.200 And, you know, and I'm here kind of because y'all keep insisting on it. 02:53.680 --> 02:55.380 Everyone keeps insisting I'm a hacker. 02:58.960 --> 03:04.860 I have helped organize a thousand victims to fight back and we've gotten to do a lot of really cool stuff. 03:05.400 --> 03:13.260 You know, from, you know, posting thousands of pictures of Shrek to drown out threads of nudes being shared without consent. 03:14.020 --> 03:21.820 And, you know, teaching them some tips and tricks on how to be secure and, you know, still express their sexuality online. 03:22.480 --> 03:26.220 You know, and there's other things that we've done that are best left for Sky Talks. 03:26.680 --> 03:28.140 My lawyer is here. 03:28.140 --> 03:29.320 She will yell at me. 03:29.320 --> 03:32.020 So got to be quiet on that one. 03:33.320 --> 03:34.960 And here we are. 03:35.240 --> 03:38.980 I would love to introduce you to this amazing and wonderful team. 03:38.980 --> 03:42.240 I'm actually just going to be moderating this panel. 03:42.240 --> 03:48.200 I'm going to be letting them speak because I get a lot of chances too and it's time for their voices to get heard. 03:48.200 --> 03:53.140 So without further ado, let me introduce you to my badasses. 03:53.440 --> 03:54.220 All right. 03:54.220 --> 03:58.940 First off, we have Kate Venable, the aforementioned lawyer. 03:58.940 --> 04:01.080 She is our head of legal. 04:01.760 --> 04:09.220 She keeps us out of trouble and, you know, helps victims with their own specific cases. 04:09.320 --> 04:12.340 Next, we have Rachel Lamp, who's my COO. 04:12.340 --> 04:21.200 She is amazing and wonderful and has more empathy, I think, than any other human being I've ever met in my entire life. 04:21.320 --> 04:24.320 Coming next, we have Marlee Farlow, who's our CMO. 04:24.400 --> 04:25.660 She is creative. 04:25.660 --> 04:26.840 She is fun. 04:26.880 --> 04:31.620 She is organized, which is the opposite of me. 04:31.620 --> 04:33.240 I'm very disorganized. 04:33.240 --> 04:45.900 Next, we have Allie Barnes, who is our CTO, who explains all the things that, you know, you guys talk about when I have dumb questions and teaches me a little bit about tech. 04:45.900 --> 04:52.960 And then finally, we have Timmy Doomsday, who is our CISO, however that's said. 04:54.120 --> 04:56.680 And he is a blast. 04:56.680 --> 05:02.540 He's hilarious to be around, and he is really focused on making sure that we have all of our security locked on tight. 05:03.700 --> 05:09.320 And I'm going to be asking them some questions, and you can ask them some questions. 05:10.740 --> 05:12.760 Let's get this thing started. 05:12.760 --> 05:13.500 Hey! 05:16.100 --> 05:16.680 Hi! 05:17.300 --> 05:18.660 What's happening? 05:20.800 --> 05:28.020 So I just did a really brief recap of what we've, you know, done thus far and what we've accomplished with Badass. 05:28.020 --> 05:33.120 But I would love to hear... let's start this out, you know, on the positive. 05:33.120 --> 05:38.160 I want to hear y'all brag and talk about your favorite thing that has happened thus far with Badass. 05:38.160 --> 05:39.860 What is your favorite accomplishment? 05:39.900 --> 05:41.300 Let's start with Rachel. 05:41.980 --> 05:48.940 I'd say my favorite accomplishment with Badass is definitely getting that law passed in Ohio. 05:48.940 --> 05:50.820 It absolutely was life-changing. 05:50.820 --> 05:59.120 It was so great to be able to take something that would assist so many victims, because a lot of us, like in the beginning, we were based in Ohio. 05:59.380 --> 06:07.100 So being able to have a course of action for our immediate base was just really life-changing. 06:08.620 --> 06:09.280 Yeah. 06:09.800 --> 06:11.860 Kate, I know you've gotten a lot. 06:11.860 --> 06:15.820 Yeah, the law was awesome. 06:15.900 --> 06:19.440 Never really expected that to happen. 06:19.940 --> 06:27.600 In the same vein of things I never expected to happen was, you know, my best friend is like, let's start a non-profit. 06:27.780 --> 06:29.380 And here we are. 06:30.080 --> 06:37.540 I really, like when I went to law school, never thought ever that this was anything remotely close to what I would be doing. 06:37.540 --> 06:38.380 And it's so cool. 06:38.380 --> 06:39.400 And it's so awesome. 06:39.400 --> 06:44.740 And it's so much more interesting than half of what all my friends do. 06:44.740 --> 06:47.220 So I really enjoy it. 06:47.660 --> 06:49.120 All right, Marley. 06:50.280 --> 07:01.820 So as a team, I'd say like every time we help a victim is just like a huge accomplishment when I see one of our victims come into our group and let us know that they actually received justice. 07:02.720 --> 07:04.440 Definitely something to rejoice about. 07:04.440 --> 07:15.580 And then on a personal level, my favorite professor from my university asked me to come and teach a course with her to like hundreds of students about this issue. 07:15.800 --> 07:18.600 I did it once and she's asked me to come back definitely. 07:18.600 --> 07:21.320 And I'm just super pumped about that. 07:22.200 --> 07:23.880 All right, Allie. 07:26.340 --> 07:36.020 So favorite accomplishment that I've gotten to like be around and witness is definitely TITS for DEF CON was great to witness. 07:36.020 --> 07:47.220 And on a personal level, you know, just getting to, I think one of my favorite things has been like the cybersecurity awareness month that we did and stuff like that has been my favorite. 07:47.520 --> 07:48.280 All right. 07:48.280 --> 07:52.200 And finally, Timmy, the newest member of this team. 07:52.860 --> 07:53.480 Right. 07:53.480 --> 07:55.120 So I'm like the squid, right? 07:55.120 --> 08:03.000 So, you know, my biggest accomplishment, honestly, is to just be here with these wonderful people on this panel today. 08:04.440 --> 08:16.580 You know, I started out, Rachel recruited me as just a, you know, humdrum volunteer working victim intake, and now I get to sit here with these wonderful people and talk to all you. 08:19.140 --> 08:20.340 All right. 08:20.340 --> 08:24.120 So now that we've gone over the past a little bit, let's talk about the present. 08:24.480 --> 08:29.120 I know lately we've been a little bit absent on our social media pages. 08:29.120 --> 08:36.920 We've been taking just a teensy bit of a hiatus, although we are still reachable in case of emergency, if victims need to reach out. 08:37.220 --> 08:39.900 But so where have we been? 08:43.020 --> 08:52.000 Well, I think we all took a break to reflect on pretty much what we wanted badass to be in the future going forward. 08:52.000 --> 08:55.700 And also, we were just really out of spoons. 08:55.840 --> 09:02.580 As most of us are victims of some sort of sexual abuse or image abuse. 09:02.580 --> 09:10.820 It really, it takes a toll to continuously have to, you know, go through and reopen those wounds and assist victims. 09:11.940 --> 09:13.160 Mm-hmm. 09:14.300 --> 09:15.340 We also... 09:15.340 --> 09:16.360 Oh, go on. 09:16.540 --> 09:17.280 Sorry. 09:17.280 --> 09:30.360 I was just gonna say, and I think like, we're not, I mean, while we do a lot of remote stuff, we're not immune from, you know, the effects of quarantine that everybody else is feeling. 09:30.360 --> 09:37.860 Like, we're all still here trying to figure out what in the world it means to work from home and how we have to change our model. 09:37.860 --> 09:44.140 Like, nobody knows what, like, the next day brings in terms of COVID and all of that. 09:44.140 --> 09:55.500 So, I think that went a lot, like, went into our decision to just, like, take a step back because we're all trying to figure it out along with everybody else. 09:56.520 --> 09:57.480 Yeah. 09:58.280 --> 10:04.760 I think a big thing also is that we, you know, we started this and it just blew up. 10:04.760 --> 10:14.240 And we were just learning as fast as we could, you know, the best ways to go about doing things and to run an organization at this size. 10:14.240 --> 10:19.260 I mean, we went from being a group of 10 of us to a global thing. 10:19.940 --> 10:31.800 And, you know, we were just scrambling to catch up, but nothing, we didn't have any, you know, procedures and things in place that were long-term sustainable. 10:31.800 --> 10:37.220 We were just doing whatever we needed to do in that moment and we needed to organize. 10:37.220 --> 10:40.280 We needed to figure out the best ways to do things. 10:40.480 --> 10:40.740 Yeah. 10:40.740 --> 10:52.780 And I think, like, because of a lot of us being victims, like, we just coming into this organization came into it, like, crazy passionate and wanting to take on, like, anything and everything. 10:52.800 --> 11:07.040 So, a lot of us were, like, I'm in marketing, but then I'm going out and trying to do law enforcement training and I'm doing classes at colleges and, like, taking on so much because I want to and I'm excited to help and move this forward. 11:07.680 --> 11:20.720 And then, of course, you know, burnout comes into play and we have to look at ourselves as an organization and look at what we want to do, what we want to focus on and do well and then expand from there. 11:20.720 --> 11:22.800 So, exactly. 11:22.800 --> 11:25.060 And you mentioned law enforcement training. 11:25.060 --> 11:29.960 So, let's talk a little bit about the laws and responses from law enforcement. 11:30.580 --> 11:34.480 Just quick thumbs up or thumbs down from the team here. 11:34.520 --> 11:45.680 Do you think that law enforcement is doing an excellent job of handling reports and complaints about when it comes to non-consensual image abuse? 11:45.800 --> 11:47.060 What do we think? 11:47.860 --> 11:48.940 All right. 11:48.940 --> 11:51.140 So, let's talk about that. 11:51.360 --> 11:54.260 What do you think can be done to change that? 11:56.420 --> 11:58.800 Training, for one. 11:59.360 --> 12:19.360 Yeah, well, like, for me, as a victim, going through my own personal case, it took nine times to report my own victimization and a lot of the reason was nobody knew that they handled cybercrimes and that they didn't have cybercrime units and they told me to call the FBI and it just, 12:19.360 --> 12:20.280 like, blew my mind. 12:20.280 --> 12:27.780 I'm looking at a statute saying, like, it literally says number four, local law enforcement handles this issue. 12:27.860 --> 12:33.200 So, like, why is there this disconnect between you understanding that you can do something for victims? 12:33.380 --> 12:34.480 And, yeah. 12:34.480 --> 12:38.560 So, I'm just going to say training is one of the biggest issues here. 12:40.900 --> 12:41.820 Okay. 12:42.920 --> 13:05.180 Something else that I noticed, and maybe, Kate, you can speak to this a little bit more, but, like, when I was first brought on, you know, I was working on building resources for victims and one of that was going through and just making the law a little bit more digestible and it seems like a lot of the laws that are on the books can't even decide what a nude is and that seems to be, 13:05.180 --> 13:07.600 like, the basis of the entire conversation. 13:07.600 --> 13:14.860 So, if we can't even agree on a vocabulary to talk about these things, how are we going to push effective legislation? 13:15.980 --> 13:20.060 Yeah, I mean, I would definitely agree with that. 13:21.140 --> 13:51.020 Like, it's not only just, like, what is a nude, but I know Marianne Franks has talked about this a lot in a lot of the stuff that she does with CCRI and, I mean, most of the laws have these intent to harm clauses and basically what it says, basically you have to prove that the poster intended to harm the victim in whatever way by posting it and it's next to impossible to prove and it's next to impossible to enforce. 13:51.020 --> 13:52.600 Maliciously, yeah. 13:52.600 --> 13:55.180 Yeah, that vocabulary, malicious. 13:56.260 --> 14:19.620 Yeah, it makes it pretty much impossible to enforce at all and I think, um, yeah, I mean, it just goes on what you said, Timmy, like, we have to agree on something and then we write these laws and we think they sound all good and great and with an intent to harm makes it, 14:19.620 --> 14:24.200 I wouldn't say useless per se, but it makes it hard. 14:24.660 --> 14:42.220 And it even complicates it further once you get into crossing state lines or country lines because the language of each state law is so entirely different and, you know, it's hard enough getting police to want to pursue justice for these victims, but once it crosses state lines, 14:42.220 --> 14:44.460 they just give up pretty much altogether. 14:45.240 --> 14:48.560 Yeah, the language has definitely been an issue. 14:48.560 --> 14:55.280 Speaking of language, most people know about the type of abuse that we're fighting against. 14:55.280 --> 14:57.340 They know it as revenge porn. 14:58.040 --> 15:00.540 What do you guys think about just that wording? 15:02.660 --> 15:04.400 I'm gonna go. 15:04.500 --> 15:06.240 I hate it. 15:07.900 --> 15:09.320 Like, I get it. 15:09.320 --> 15:26.460 It's like, the media kind of jumped on that term and sensationalized it, especially with the fappening and things like that happening, but when you really break it down, revenge porn specifically deals with, like, intimate partners abusing one another, 15:26.460 --> 15:32.360 and it really only represents 8% of non-consensual image abuse cases. 15:32.700 --> 15:41.120 So I don't like it for that reason, but, like, more than that, the term revenge automatically implies that the victim did something wrong. 15:41.120 --> 15:59.620 So there's, like, victim blaming built into it, and then the term pornography also has a false sense of consent built into it because generally people who are creating pornography content are consenting to be taped and shared, which none of these victims are. 15:59.620 --> 16:01.720 So personally, I don't like the term. 16:01.720 --> 16:17.260 I will use it in cases where I'm trying to get some awareness out and people aren't understanding what I'm talking about, so more as a reference point, or if I'm specifically dealing with somebody whose former partner or current partner is abusing them. 16:22.260 --> 16:27.880 Yeah, I like the way that you just dropped that stat out there, like, it's only 8%. 16:27.880 --> 16:31.920 Are there any more stats that you think are really important to share? 16:32.380 --> 16:39.160 Actually, since you are our stats person, you know this stuff better than any of us. 16:39.160 --> 16:40.720 Stats on stats. 16:42.660 --> 16:50.940 Yeah, it's actually kind of interesting because there's not a ton of resources dedicated to researching this topic. 16:51.500 --> 16:53.440 Like, CCRI is amazing. 16:53.440 --> 16:57.500 They so far have put out the most research on the topic. 16:57.660 --> 17:10.110 I did recently see one that came out in February that said that the rate in which this is happening is one in three people are being victimized, and that was just two months ago. 17:11.050 --> 17:15.750 But that was geared more towards European countries and wasn't a worldwide view. 17:15.930 --> 17:23.250 The most recent stat we have as far as worldwide is concerned is 2017, which said it was one in eight people. 17:23.530 --> 17:31.690 And I'm sure we'll get into lots of reasons why that is rising quickly, but it's hard to say. 17:31.690 --> 17:39.510 I'm going to go with probably something closer to one in five, one in six as of currently, but it's something that we really need research on. 17:39.970 --> 17:47.050 And then I know another interesting fact is that, you know, this affects three out of four women. 17:47.050 --> 17:52.930 Victims are women in most cases, or female-identifying people. 17:53.550 --> 18:03.470 But in cases where the victim does identify as male, it's 90% of those cases incorporate sex torsion as well as the image abuse. 18:03.810 --> 18:08.190 So that's just some facts. 18:08.550 --> 18:13.270 And yeah, those are scary, scary figures to hear. 18:13.550 --> 18:17.970 Yeah, that many people this is happening to, this is a huge problem. 18:18.730 --> 18:31.470 You know, but the biggest thing that we hear when we discuss these sorts of things with the public or in the press, immediately the first thing we hear is, well, this wouldn't be a problem if you just didn't take those pictures. 18:32.570 --> 18:34.250 And so we hear it so much. 18:34.250 --> 18:37.670 I know we all have a ton of different responses that we go to. 18:38.130 --> 18:40.390 So let's share all those responses. 18:40.390 --> 18:42.090 Let's just get that out of the way. 18:42.970 --> 18:44.870 Rachel, I can see it. 18:44.990 --> 18:47.690 You're about to explode with things to say. 18:48.010 --> 18:55.570 I have so many words for people who say such things, but I'm going to keep it professional-ish. 18:56.990 --> 19:00.610 It is not the victim's fault. 19:01.170 --> 19:02.990 Like, it's 2020. 19:03.350 --> 19:05.430 We have cell phones attached to us. 19:05.430 --> 19:07.290 They're basically part of us. 19:07.290 --> 19:14.010 It only makes sense that, you know, people would be using their cell phones in their sex lives as well. 19:14.010 --> 19:22.150 I mean, we use it to record when we sleep, like to tell us when we fart, like when we talk in our sleep. 19:22.150 --> 19:27.530 Like, of course, it's going to be incorporated into sexual relationships as well. 19:27.590 --> 19:41.850 So I think the thought of excluding that or blaming the person because of them using and expressing their sexuality within a consenting form and that being abused, it's just, it's senseless. 19:45.350 --> 19:54.950 One thing that bugs me is that people always say that when the fact is we, you don't even need to take a nude to become a victim anymore. 19:56.090 --> 20:05.610 You know, I see deepfakes are already being brought up here in the chat, and that is, you know, something we have been monitoring. 20:06.810 --> 20:10.230 So what should we do about the deepfakes? 20:10.230 --> 20:12.210 Do we see that becoming more of a problem? 20:15.000 --> 20:24.060 Yeah, I mean, I feel like the media recently has just realized that that's a thing. 20:24.060 --> 20:35.680 But it's something I think our organization has been talking about amongst ourselves and within the community of victims and activists for over a year now, I would say. 20:35.680 --> 20:41.660 And then all of a sudden, like within the last, like, I think six months or so, the media is like, oh, deepfakes. 20:41.660 --> 20:47.720 And I'm just like, looking at the headlines, like, duh, where have y'all been? 20:48.640 --> 20:54.380 But yeah, no, I mean, it's, it doesn't necessarily mean you took a nude or anything anymore. 20:54.380 --> 21:01.020 Like, it means some jerk put your face on some random naked person and is now exploiting you on the internet. 21:03.020 --> 21:07.760 I believe our first deepfake victim came to us about a year and a half ago. 21:08.500 --> 21:17.720 And since then, it's, it's, it's going to continue to rise, like, human curiosity, and then us just being bored and quarantined. 21:17.720 --> 21:19.820 People have a lot of free time on their hands. 21:20.440 --> 21:25.060 Deepfakes are going to continue to be on the rise. 21:25.880 --> 21:37.160 Yeah, I'm actually interested to find out what the stats are on that, just because, like, being quarantined, people are just stuck in their computers. 21:37.160 --> 21:42.540 And there's all these apps coming out all the time that allow people to create deepfakes. 21:42.540 --> 21:48.620 I know that there's that one, I think, a year ago, or a little less than a year ago, that came out and was kind of making waves. 21:48.620 --> 21:57.240 And I really wish I, like, I knew how to how to stop that or any advice to prevent that from happening. 21:57.240 --> 22:01.340 But it's just, it's cropping up everywhere. 22:01.340 --> 22:07.000 And so quickly that I'm just, I'm not, I'm at a loss, personally, as to what to do. 22:07.540 --> 22:15.860 And I mean, it doesn't help that, you know, the, think about the processing power it takes to do some of that stuff. 22:15.860 --> 22:19.900 It wasn't just sitting on your desk two or three years ago. 22:19.900 --> 22:28.560 Whereas now, I have a laptop that could probably generate a deepfake in an hour or two, you know, with the right settings. 22:29.120 --> 22:36.520 And never underestimate, you know, someone that's time rich and money poor, which is a lot of us right now. 22:36.940 --> 22:39.060 Yeah, I was gonna say that's exactly it. 22:39.060 --> 22:43.400 People have so much more time to write these tools and stuff now. 22:45.980 --> 22:47.100 Yeah. 22:48.080 --> 22:54.220 But beyond deepfakes, I mean, that's a, it still is a problem that is growing. 22:54.220 --> 22:55.760 And it's something we're anticipating. 22:56.360 --> 23:10.700 But you know, the majority of the people coming to us, you know, their images that have been leaked, or something that they took, or allowed a trusted partner to take, and that were leaked without their consent. 23:11.840 --> 23:18.280 So say someone wants to, you know, still continue doing that, which we encourage, we encourage that sort of thing. 23:18.280 --> 23:19.960 But we want them to do it safely. 23:20.820 --> 23:26.880 What tips do you have for people to sext and take nudes and not become victims? 23:29.960 --> 23:33.320 So there's a few things I feel like that we tell people. 23:33.320 --> 23:43.500 And I mean, I feel like this is the perfect time where I love how we do Cybersecurity Awareness Month, because I feel like it's a perfect time to like, flood everyone with all the tips every day. 23:43.500 --> 23:45.900 And Rachel did such a good job last year. 23:45.900 --> 23:49.700 Yeah, I almost said yesterday, last year, putting stuff together. 23:49.840 --> 24:02.660 But you know, basic things are like, simple things, but you know, turning off the location on your phone and making sure your address is not attached to your data that's coming from your camera roll. 24:02.860 --> 24:08.640 Pay attention to what apps you're using and what data they're storing of yours. 24:09.000 --> 24:14.520 Something that a lot of people don't think of that I've seen people get bit on is like Snapchat memories. 24:14.620 --> 24:21.360 You take a picture on Snapchat and you think it goes away, but Snapchat saves it and is like, trying to remind you about it later. 24:21.360 --> 24:27.720 But all it takes at that point is someone to get your Snapchat password if you don't have everything protected properly. 24:28.800 --> 24:34.880 So those things, you know, things we say, keep two-factor on for all of the things that you can. 24:37.000 --> 24:42.080 You know, pay attention to what's in the pictures that you're sending to people that you don't know or trust. 24:42.120 --> 24:46.680 Make sure there's maybe no random box in the background with your home address on it. 24:48.280 --> 24:50.740 Yeah, those are the things come to mind off the top of my head. 24:51.000 --> 24:54.300 Speaking of making sure you know what's in your pictures, exit data. 24:54.740 --> 25:00.160 You want to make sure to wipe that so you're not accidentally sharing location and stuff like that. 25:00.920 --> 25:01.620 What else? 25:02.080 --> 25:04.940 Oh, I was just, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. 25:04.940 --> 25:06.580 No, no, I was done. 25:06.580 --> 25:07.120 Go. 25:07.480 --> 25:28.940 No, I was just gonna say like, so in my day job, when I'm lawyering and stuff, this has like actually really helped my practice and me helping victims and, you know, like just raising awareness in general as to like how to protect your own privacy, not just in terms of image abuse, 25:28.940 --> 25:44.220 but like if there's domestic violence or stalking or some other, you know, like menacing or whatever crime you can think of that involves somebody being creepy, like it's basic privacy info. 25:44.220 --> 26:00.520 Change your passwords, turn on two-factor, turn off your location, don't give your significant other like unfettered access to where you are 24-7 because that's creepy anyway, but that's neither here nor there. 26:00.520 --> 26:28.960 But I mean, it's just, I mean, basically what Allie said, like it's stuff that people don't think about and with the way that all these companies like Google and Apple and whoever like track our data these days, it's important to know what data we're sharing and who is seeing it and what control we have over who it goes to and where it goes to and when. 26:28.960 --> 26:43.020 And also, sorry, I was going to say to add on to that, you could, you can simply watermark your photos with the name of the person you're sending them to. 26:43.340 --> 26:56.820 And also you can, you can create kind of a contract between each other by like asking your partner explicitly like not to send these photos or it will cause me harm. 26:57.200 --> 27:03.840 Those are really important words because we know that that's how the laws really frame them is that intent to harm. 27:03.840 --> 27:17.400 So if you can just check that box immediately and screenshot it, keep it in a file with their name, then I think that would really do a lot in the way of prevention and also assisting in your own legal case if it comes to that point. 27:20.430 --> 27:21.110 Yeah. 27:21.450 --> 27:28.870 I always want to remind people, you know, you want to think about the future and always hope for the best, prepare for the worst. 27:29.750 --> 27:33.590 You know, make that screen, that contract screenshot at your lawyer. 27:33.590 --> 27:36.630 If they ever need one, we'll thank you for that. 27:37.610 --> 27:39.230 So yeah, that's really important. 27:39.230 --> 27:47.010 I know that we had discussed Snapchat and other various apps that are being used to share these images. 27:47.650 --> 27:56.990 And what, you know, responsibility do they have, do you think, to, you know, prevent this sort of thing from happening? 27:56.990 --> 28:08.270 And what are you seeing platforms and companies doing that they're just falling short and letting, you know, victims, victimization happen on their platform? 28:12.740 --> 28:14.600 I mean, do you want the real answer? 28:18.520 --> 28:34.320 I mean, from my perspective, like, Facebook could like respond to subpoenas that are from not law enforcement, maybe, possibly, at some point in time, that might be helpful. 28:34.700 --> 28:42.900 Like, if somebody sends stuff during mess, like using Facebook Messenger, it's next to impossible to get anything useful for court. 28:44.360 --> 28:47.900 And you're, I'm not law enforcement, so they don't care. 28:49.820 --> 28:56.380 I mean, other people can speak to what they've experienced, but that's the first thing that comes to mind for me. 28:56.640 --> 29:02.200 Well, the other thing that, the first thing that comes to mind for me are hosting companies, right? 29:02.200 --> 29:07.920 There's usually a blanket AUP policy that says, don't post these kinds of things. 29:08.040 --> 29:17.920 But image abuse, if there's, especially if there's not minors involved, right, they may or may not be on their abuse priority list. 29:18.180 --> 29:32.900 So I think it's important to hold these hosting companies accountable and keep letting them know when they're willingly hosting, you know, websites and clients that are committing image abuse, like Cloudflare. 29:32.960 --> 29:37.680 Oh, wait, wait, what did we have planned for Cloudflare when we said that at some point? 29:37.960 --> 29:40.260 I just want to throw that out there. 29:40.780 --> 29:45.260 Yeah, just, we're waving, we're saying hi. 29:47.680 --> 29:51.540 Now, we've run into these issues with Cloudflare for a very long time. 29:52.880 --> 29:59.240 They have repeatedly, you know, and it's not just them, but they are the most egregious when it comes to this. 29:59.720 --> 30:02.400 What, you know, other apps, let's call them out. 30:02.400 --> 30:09.500 Like, who is just doing a really shitty job of letting victim, of letting victimization happen on their platform? 30:09.500 --> 30:11.760 And versus who do you think is doing all right? 30:11.760 --> 30:13.520 Like, who's actually trying? 30:14.080 --> 30:17.080 I think that Twitter is quite a shame. 30:17.200 --> 30:20.240 They could really respond to reports. 30:20.240 --> 30:28.680 I remember that there was an actual Twitter account that was for one of these hosting sites. 30:28.680 --> 30:32.180 And it took two years for it to be removed. 30:32.180 --> 30:37.310 And they openly boasted about having specifically leaked images and revenge porn. 30:38.100 --> 30:40.190 So, Twitter. 30:44.080 --> 30:45.140 Anyone else? 30:45.140 --> 30:45.600 Twitter . 30:46.320 --> 30:50.700 I can speak to a couple of ones that have at least been trying. 30:50.700 --> 30:53.140 And mind you, their methods aren't perfect. 30:53.140 --> 30:57.620 And obviously, victimization still happens quite a bit on their platform. 30:57.620 --> 31:01.420 But at least they are a either trying to address the problem or prevent it. 31:02.040 --> 31:09.360 You know, Facebook, they came out with a pilot to try to prevent images from being uploaded in the first place. 31:09.360 --> 31:11.800 And yes, it's Facebook, and nobody's going to trust them. 31:11.800 --> 31:19.580 As I believe the press, you know, kind of twisted it to, you know, send Facebook your nudes, which is the worst idea ever. 31:19.660 --> 31:23.140 But they were trying, they addressed that there was an issue. 31:23.140 --> 31:27.560 And, you know, they acknowledged it, and they are trying something. 31:27.560 --> 31:46.040 And the other one that has been actually good to work with, and I know this is, you know, a bit of a controversial opinion, but Pornhub has had their moderators involved with us from the very beginning, and given us a direct line to making sure that things get taken down really quickly, 31:46.040 --> 31:49.060 as soon as, you know, anyone discovers there's a problem. 31:49.060 --> 31:54.380 And no one has even, you know, really tried to make sure the problem never happens in the first place yet. 31:54.860 --> 31:56.500 But I'm waiting to see that happen next. 31:56.500 --> 31:58.160 And I'm really excited about that. 31:59.500 --> 32:00.840 Anyone else? 32:01.060 --> 32:02.240 Want to call someone out? 32:02.240 --> 32:04.140 Want to call a platform? 32:04.160 --> 32:05.040 Start a fight? 32:05.040 --> 32:06.120 Let's do it. 32:08.080 --> 32:11.120 I mean, we've had issues with Instagram forever. 32:12.700 --> 32:14.560 Like, reporting. 32:14.560 --> 32:29.520 I mean, I personally know someone who, it's not necessarily, like, revenge porn or image abuse per se, but it started, like, his victimization started with Instagram. 32:29.520 --> 32:32.000 And it's been years. 32:32.100 --> 32:42.240 And it's taken thousands of people reporting, and millions of dollars extorted for them to even do anything. 32:42.900 --> 32:46.940 They finally, like, CNN got the story recently. 32:46.940 --> 32:50.420 But other than that, like, I mean, it's insane. 32:50.420 --> 33:00.780 Like, everybody I know who has been victimized on Instagram has had the worst time even getting them to listen. 33:01.980 --> 33:08.100 Yeah, and that's a shame because I feel like a lot of, like, high school leaps end up on Instagram. 33:08.100 --> 33:17.980 And the fact that they're not very responsive in a very fast way, really, it's a shame because that stuff should be snuffed out relatively quickly, you know. 33:19.100 --> 33:21.600 I have one. 33:22.900 --> 33:24.340 Reddit. 33:25.820 --> 33:30.980 So, like, they try sometimes. 33:32.200 --> 33:48.680 My qualm with them is that they don't, they have moderators who do remove content, which is great, but they don't retain that content so that victims can claim it and use it as evidence, which is kind of a huge problem. 33:49.080 --> 33:53.480 Like, and where, I'm in Florida, and it's a stackable offense here. 33:53.920 --> 33:59.340 In my case, my image was posted on Reddit and also on another site. 34:00.480 --> 34:07.980 And the person who did it was only facing a misdemeanor because Reddit took down the image, and I had no proof that it was ever there. 34:08.040 --> 34:12.300 So, you know, I reached out to them directly and asked them, like, what's going on? 34:12.300 --> 34:14.300 Can you put something in place? 34:14.300 --> 34:25.220 If you can flag images as non-consensual image abuse, then you should also be able to, like, keep them in a repository that's saved for law enforcement to contact and get later. 34:25.220 --> 34:28.080 But alas, there's nothing. 34:30.180 --> 34:30.920 Absolutely . 34:30.920 --> 34:32.860 And how could we forget Discord? 34:32.860 --> 34:33.990 Discord. 34:37.180 --> 34:49.140 That's actually the first time I ever came to Discord was because of my images being in an entire revenge porn Discord server, which is lovely. 34:49.140 --> 34:53.800 And they also remove content without preserving any of the data. 34:53.900 --> 35:03.620 You just have to really hope that the officer you're working with is able to send the preservation of data quick enough before that content is just gone forever. 35:04.560 --> 35:07.740 Smash cut to the stream getting dropped immediately. 35:07.740 --> 35:14.020 I mean, and that's not even in just, you know, image abuse cases with adults. 35:14.020 --> 35:15.840 We've run into that issue as well. 35:15.840 --> 35:22.920 A lot of our work, you know, does involve CSAM, which is exploitation of children. 35:22.920 --> 35:29.640 And so it's been really frustrating to see companies drop the ball on that a lot. 35:32.080 --> 35:36.120 So we've discussed, you know, the platforms and their responsibility. 35:36.120 --> 35:53.860 And I know a little bit ago, I just saw a really great talk, actually, you know, just a couple hours ago, it was in Crypto Village, and it was regarding Section 230, as well as the upcoming, you know, Earn It Act, which is gaining momentum, you know, through the process. 35:53.860 --> 35:56.900 And, you know, what are your thoughts on those? 35:59.540 --> 36:08.760 Yeah, I mean, with CDA 230, it has a lot of nuance to it. 36:08.980 --> 36:11.080 It has some good points. 36:11.080 --> 36:21.180 And it also has, it also creates loopholes that I don't know, I don't want to like criticize it too much, because I'm not sure that the loopholes were necessarily intentional. 36:21.600 --> 36:34.420 But I mean, when we were talking about Cloudflare earlier, I mean, their web hosts aren't responsible for the content that they're hosting because of laws like CDA 230. 36:34.420 --> 36:41.780 And while they are meant to be helpful, like they also create more problems. 36:41.780 --> 36:52.100 And I just, it needs to be retooled so that it's a better law and has less room for wiggle, like less wiggle room. 36:53.040 --> 37:08.400 You know, the biggest argument that I've really heard when it comes to that, you know, and a lot of what our work is, whenever we're trying to talk about legislation regarding this form of abuse, the biggest argument I hear about is about how, you know, 37:08.400 --> 37:11.060 NCP is, it's a free speech thing. 37:11.620 --> 37:17.300 And people claim that, you know, this is free speech. 37:17.300 --> 37:19.020 And what are your thoughts on that? 37:21.710 --> 37:22.330 Well, 37:27.420 --> 37:43.800 I think that nudity and nude photographs could be free speech, but once it enters into the realm of harming people, that's when it exits, you know, free speech up until a point. 37:44.060 --> 37:48.180 But what, at what point do we consider things to be harmful? 37:48.180 --> 37:52.520 I think it comes down to the consent, personally. 37:54.000 --> 37:55.440 Yeah, I'd agree with that. 37:55.440 --> 38:08.340 I think that's where the, I think that's part of the argument behind the intent to harm thing, intent to harm clause, is that's what makes it not free speech anymore. 38:08.340 --> 38:16.540 But we can't define it that broadly and make it that vague because it becomes unenforceable. 38:16.900 --> 38:18.820 Free speech is complicated. 38:18.820 --> 38:23.000 It's way more complicated than the average person would think it is. 38:23.000 --> 38:31.360 And yes, we have free speech, but it doesn't mean that you can say what you want and do what you want without repercussions. 38:31.420 --> 38:40.700 And it doesn't mean that, it also doesn't mean that just because it's free speech, it's the right or moral thing to do. 38:40.700 --> 38:47.680 Like, there's a difference between what our country allows us to say and what is morally and ethically correct. 38:49.120 --> 38:54.300 Yeah, legality doesn't always equal morality, nor vice versa. 38:54.560 --> 38:55.140 Yep. 38:56.580 --> 39:02.800 So yeah, I know this, I've seen quite a few questions in the chat. 39:02.800 --> 39:10.720 Also, big props to my amazing husband, TC, if you haven't noticed, he has been helping us field these questions. 39:10.720 --> 39:12.760 He's making sure that we get them. 39:12.860 --> 39:21.840 And any messages that I might be missing, because I'm also moderating the panel and don't always have time to look at this chat, he's making sure we see them. 39:22.020 --> 39:26.800 And just basically being the most amazing personal assistant in the world. 39:26.800 --> 39:29.160 So thank you, TC. 39:31.160 --> 39:35.200 So I would like to start addressing some audience questions. 39:36.240 --> 39:48.260 All right, and the first one is, given the type of victims that you help, do you find that you as an organization are now targeted in order to gain access to lists of clients by harassers and such like? 39:48.280 --> 39:50.900 And they aimed that toward Ali. 39:52.200 --> 39:55.140 So I mean, let's start that off with you. 39:56.140 --> 39:56.560 Yeah. 39:56.860 --> 40:03.060 So I would say it definitely, you know, makes us more at risk. 40:03.060 --> 40:15.620 I don't know if I would say that it's for people wanting to get a list of our victims or clients, people that we help so much as it's people that are pissed off that we're doing what we're doing. 40:15.620 --> 40:23.000 And they kind of, you know, feel this need to, like, plot a revenge against us kind of thing. 40:23.000 --> 40:24.860 We're taking away their control, right? 40:24.860 --> 40:29.460 So they're revenging revenge porn. 40:30.320 --> 40:30.880 Revenge. 40:31.060 --> 40:34.900 I mean, I think Caitlin can tell you this. 40:34.900 --> 40:37.600 We have a whole lot of trolls. 40:40.200 --> 40:41.580 And yeah. 40:42.140 --> 40:44.100 Can we talk real quick, though? 40:44.100 --> 40:47.740 Like, speaking of trolls, can we just talk real quick about tits for DEF CON from last year? 40:48.100 --> 40:49.760 And how that went? 40:49.760 --> 40:51.600 If anyone remembers that. 40:52.160 --> 40:54.840 And I remember. 40:55.180 --> 40:56.800 Yeah, that was fun. 40:56.800 --> 40:58.160 People were mad. 41:00.060 --> 41:07.640 But yeah, I mean, we've gotten, like, I mean, yeah, we've gotten trolls. 41:07.640 --> 41:09.480 We've gotten, it's not just trolls. 41:09.480 --> 41:15.580 You can only use, you can only use money you've made in InfoSec to come to DEF CON. 41:15.580 --> 41:17.940 That's the only money you're allowed to use. 41:18.200 --> 41:21.120 Yeah, whore money should be spent on poor things. 41:21.800 --> 41:22.960 Exactly. 41:23.320 --> 41:25.340 Just what we did. 41:25.860 --> 41:26.580 Right? 41:26.700 --> 41:37.980 I like that. 41:37.980 --> 41:39.080 Yeah. 41:39.780 --> 41:47.960 And we've had, like, members of the org be, you know, threatened, re-victimized, doxxed, like, all kinds of things. 41:47.960 --> 41:50.060 So I'd say, yeah, 100%. 41:50.060 --> 41:51.980 People do target us. 41:52.060 --> 41:53.560 They try to. 41:54.120 --> 41:56.860 And, you know, we all support one another. 41:57.480 --> 42:00.600 And do our best to fight against that, too. 42:01.520 --> 42:06.860 I just wanted to show off the whore dollars, the stickers that we had for DEF CON last year. 42:06.860 --> 42:09.880 That says, I spent my whore money at DEF CON. 42:09.900 --> 42:12.200 And she's got a titty out. 42:12.380 --> 42:13.440 Her favorite one. 42:13.440 --> 42:14.120 Just one. 42:14.120 --> 42:16.640 I think I have three whore dollars. 42:17.000 --> 42:18.480 Three whore dollars? 42:18.480 --> 42:19.780 What are you going to buy? 42:19.780 --> 42:21.420 What whore things are you going to buy? 42:22.420 --> 42:23.720 Something special. 42:25.260 --> 42:26.940 I don't know where it came from. 42:27.620 --> 42:28.380 I don't know. 42:28.740 --> 42:29.280 All right. 42:29.280 --> 42:30.720 So the next question. 42:30.720 --> 42:30.920 All right. 42:30.920 --> 42:33.840 So we discussed, you know, do we see ourselves more of a target? 42:33.840 --> 42:34.580 I think so. 42:34.580 --> 42:40.480 We have had people try to infiltrate our, you know, private spaces that we have for victims. 42:40.780 --> 42:47.500 We have a lot of different things that we do to make sure that when people contact us, they are who they say they are. 42:48.220 --> 43:07.260 You know, because there have been some, you know, threats made of people trying to gain access to victims or, you know, looking to, you know, there's a whole separate there's a whole separate fetish for people that enjoy seeing victims reactions when they find out their photos are out there. 43:07.260 --> 43:12.660 They like to get the screenshots of them notifying victims, hey, your pictures are out there and they freak out. 43:13.740 --> 43:17.840 You know, and I had somebody tried to do that to me, actually, on Twitter rather recently. 43:18.720 --> 43:20.720 And I just made fun of them. 43:20.720 --> 43:24.120 It was great, because I no longer give a shit. 43:24.600 --> 43:26.360 But that is a thing. 43:26.360 --> 43:35.200 So gaining access to victims and watching them in their most vulnerable states, you know, that's the how awful is it that people get off that? 43:35.200 --> 43:36.900 Just saying. 43:37.180 --> 43:43.820 Next question is, what are some privacy tips that parents can pass on to their kids or teens? 43:44.160 --> 43:51.180 You know, recognition of exploitative behavior, protecting oneself online from malicious X, so on and so forth. 43:52.480 --> 43:55.580 I'm going to like repeat what we said a little bit earlier. 43:55.580 --> 44:05.400 And just like, in general, have a talk about consent with your kids and your teens, even starting at a really, really young age, like consent applies to everything. 44:05.400 --> 44:07.020 It's never not sexy. 44:07.020 --> 44:17.580 And it's never weird to bring up that, like, I want you to do this or that with my body or images of my body, and only that. 44:18.280 --> 44:24.700 So yeah, just impress upon them the importance of consent and having those conversations with their partners. 44:24.960 --> 44:35.840 So if they are sharing images, which it probably will be, they do need to have those conversations about what is allowed to happen with those images that they do share. 44:36.620 --> 44:37.140 Yeah. 44:37.920 --> 44:40.000 Oh, sorry. 44:40.000 --> 44:40.640 No, go on. 44:40.640 --> 44:41.400 You were clapping. 44:41.400 --> 44:45.580 I was gonna say, do not force your kids to hug people. 44:45.860 --> 44:47.520 That, I can't agree more. 44:47.520 --> 44:51.160 You can start talking about consent at a very early age. 44:51.160 --> 44:53.060 And it's not just consent that you want to cover. 44:53.060 --> 44:55.820 You also want to cover what your agency is. 44:55.820 --> 45:02.080 Having agency over your own body, how to say no, how to speak out when something is making you uncomfortable. 45:02.260 --> 45:06.560 These are conversations that people don't want to have because they're uncomfortable, but they need to. 45:06.560 --> 45:14.540 Because having them later after a victimizing incident or after trauma is going to be way more awkward, I promise. 45:14.960 --> 45:16.920 Not to mention traumatic. 45:18.500 --> 45:24.700 No, and I'm just going to pop in real fast too, like, because you're right, consent and agency go hand in hand. 45:24.700 --> 45:32.840 And actually just kind of recently, in the last couple of years, there's a new kind of method of looking at consent called the triangle of consent. 45:32.840 --> 45:35.660 I encourage everybody to look it up. 45:36.100 --> 45:43.880 But that incorporates power, agency, and communication, and all three of those things come together to create consent. 45:43.880 --> 45:48.160 So I think that's a really good starting point for talking to your kids and teens. 45:49.000 --> 46:07.120 I also think that a really important addition to that is once your kids reach the teen years and you notice that they start to look at pornography, I think that talking about consensual pornography and what that looks like and what they should be recognizing and what they should be consuming, 46:07.120 --> 46:09.200 I think that's really important as well. 46:10.400 --> 46:26.320 Yeah, I think that, yeah, having just healthy talks surrounding sex is really important, but it's also really important to talk to them about, you know, security and things like that, because they, you know, that is, this is a really big place of where both things, 46:26.320 --> 46:27.980 you know, intersect. 46:29.640 --> 46:30.040 Because... 46:31.980 --> 46:33.600 I was gonna say, I agree with that. 46:33.600 --> 46:45.680 Like, you know, I mean, if your child isn't comfortable doing something with their boyfriend or their girlfriend, they should be able to say, yo, I'm not comfortable with this. 46:45.680 --> 46:52.140 Like, teaching your kids the way to stand up for themselves will go a long way. 46:52.140 --> 47:01.440 And, I mean, I know it's not necessarily, like, image abuse related, but, I mean, it really is, like, all about teaching consent. 47:02.660 --> 47:05.020 And recognizing threats. 47:05.520 --> 47:18.140 And, like, teaching, just teaching kids to be careful when they're online and talking to people, when they're on TikTok and interacting with people that they think are one person, but they might be somebody else. 47:18.140 --> 47:22.760 Like, don't put your private information or your personal information anywhere. 47:23.940 --> 47:31.700 Just general abstract, I think, is really important to start that conversation as soon as your kids have access to a device. 47:32.580 --> 47:33.680 Mm-hmm. 47:33.920 --> 47:52.820 All right, next question, and I was told to ask this one next, is Jordan White wanted to know, they have a famous friend named, you know, I'm going to redact the name because the Streisand effect was real, and she has a very bad stalker who has now been stalking my other friends who have worked for her, 47:52.820 --> 47:54.680 provided outfits, business, etc. 47:54.680 --> 47:56.840 Should she contact Badass for this or something? 47:56.840 --> 47:58.720 She and her friends are very lost. 48:00.100 --> 48:02.140 Um, how would you address that? 48:03.480 --> 48:04.720 Yeah, contact us. 48:05.200 --> 48:07.340 Yeah, definitely. 48:08.160 --> 48:10.420 Kimmy, you're the one that said we need to take this question. 48:10.440 --> 48:11.160 Absolutely. 48:11.160 --> 48:18.060 I mean, I think, I think if there's like that public cry for help, I definitely think that that's something you should contact us with. 48:19.080 --> 48:21.640 And that's the whole reason we have this org. 48:22.760 --> 48:23.920 Absolutely. 48:23.920 --> 48:41.140 I do want to mention that you're, um, that while we do focus squarely on image abuse, okay, which is non-consensual leaking of nude images, it also has to do with upskirting any sort of non-consensual behavior online or offline that involves images. 48:41.140 --> 48:50.380 Um, you know, we get approached a lot when it comes to questions about stalking, about, um, harassment, about, you know, abuse. 48:50.380 --> 49:04.400 And while we might not have every answer, um, we do know a lot of people that we can talk to, um, and we will always do our best to address these issues as much as we can. 49:04.620 --> 49:06.860 Um, so yeah, yeah, absolutely. 49:06.860 --> 49:20.300 I think the best way to sum it up, and I actually think Caitlin's the one that said that, said this to me when I first started, was if you think you need to contact badass, if that's even a question in your mind, reach out. 49:21.780 --> 49:35.340 Yeah, I mean, even if we can't necessarily, like, even if you don't think that it pertains to what we do, odds are somebody in this group will be able to help you. 49:35.960 --> 49:39.200 Um, somebody has experienced what you experienced. 49:39.200 --> 49:43.380 Somebody is, somebody's there. 49:43.380 --> 49:51.080 Um, that's the beauty of our group, is you're not alone, and you always have somebody to talk to. 49:51.320 --> 50:00.400 I will say that when this happens to you online, especially, you know, when it happens to you in my situation, I didn't understand the internet at all. 50:00.400 --> 50:03.520 I, uh, barely went outside Google and Facebook. 50:03.780 --> 50:10.060 And so when it happened to me, I felt really, really helpless and overwhelmed and alone. 50:10.060 --> 50:15.880 Above all, I felt isolated and scared because I didn't know who was doing this to me. 50:15.880 --> 50:20.920 I didn't know who had been helping them, who all these people making these horrible comments about my body. 50:20.920 --> 50:21.780 I didn't know who they were. 50:21.780 --> 50:32.500 So when I turned to somebody for help, it might be one of those people that's just looking to make fun of me more, um, or kick me when I'm down, when I'm feeling vulnerable. 50:32.500 --> 50:46.080 So I, you know, just knowing that you're not alone and that there is someone that you can talk to that you can trust and who isn't going to be judging you and isn't going to be re-victimizing you is important. 50:46.080 --> 50:47.740 And that can make a huge difference. 50:49.400 --> 50:54.460 So yeah, uh, that is absolutely have them, um, contact us. 50:54.460 --> 50:57.340 They can do so with any of our Twitter handles. 50:57.420 --> 51:08.700 Um, and we'll put those in the chat and, you know, or through our website, www.badassarmy.org, which also I saw one of the questions was, how can people support you guys? 51:09.060 --> 51:11.600 And, um, how can people support y'all? 51:11.600 --> 51:16.500 And, uh, the best way they can do that is through our website. 51:16.500 --> 51:23.120 We have some donation, uh, links that they can use as well as just letting people know we're here. 51:24.780 --> 51:32.240 Um, so next question, uh, what about cases outside of the U S like Ireland or the UK? 51:35.730 --> 51:38.150 Um, we have a UK group. 51:39.410 --> 51:59.210 Um, we know people, um, I mean, our organization has contacts like internationally for, I mean, we can, we can find someone who can help you pretty much is what my answer to that would be. 51:59.490 --> 52:13.310 Um, our, our net is wide and we can, um, we all know enough people who know people who can point you where you need to go. 52:13.310 --> 52:21.510 I just want to mention that the U S is really far behind everybody else. 52:22.070 --> 52:23.670 That's what I was going to say. 52:23.990 --> 52:28.590 The UK, they have a bunch of orgs, their laws are built stronger. 52:28.770 --> 52:33.810 Um , and Australia, oh my gosh, Australia is just really ahead of this. 52:33.810 --> 52:42.170 They have an entire section of their government that is just, um, you know, it's a government funded organization to prevent this. 52:42.170 --> 52:57.950 Uh, and they're already tackling things that the U S is still, you know, most people don't acknowledge that they're things that exist like deep fakes or, you know, how this all, you know, they're really starting to make things happen in Australia. 52:57.950 --> 53:03.190 So yeah, we have a lot of, we have a lot of ways to go. 53:07.270 --> 53:08.830 That's literally what I was going to say. 53:08.830 --> 53:09.810 So yay. 53:12.670 --> 53:13.670 All right. 53:13.710 --> 53:15.830 Um, somebody said it really comes down to this. 53:15.830 --> 53:31.890 How can a law or set of laws be created or phrased to fight this issue without being used to clamp down on speech or sex workers, similar to FOSTA-SESTA, which is, um, you know, something that by all means, it was meant to help people that are getting victimized and, 53:31.890 --> 53:42.930 um, you know, help prevent this sort of victimization by, you know, in making platforms, um, accountable, but at the same time, it hasn't really been used for that. 53:42.930 --> 53:43.610 Has it? 53:43.810 --> 53:44.350 No. 53:44.350 --> 53:47.430 What it's been used for is to attack and harm sex workers. 53:47.550 --> 53:50.730 Um, and it has a body count at this point. 53:50.990 --> 54:05.930 So how do you think that we should, um, be addressing this in a way that isn't going to either, A, be used to harm sex workers or, um, B, be used to infringe on our free speech? 54:05.970 --> 54:06.390 Yeah. 54:06.390 --> 54:07.850 Uh, that's really hard. 54:07.850 --> 54:18.630 Uh, but like my first initial thought is to just, is to kind of focus that language on like, uh, or I guess focus the law itself on proof of consent. 54:18.630 --> 54:28.350 So like you're responsible if you're posting content to prove that the subject and that content has consented to being in it. 54:28.350 --> 54:34.090 Like maybe if there's, if that comes into play somewhere that will help a lot. 54:36.520 --> 54:46.660 Like requiring websites that allow pornography to get a release from every person that is actively participating on screen? 54:47.600 --> 54:48.180 Yeah. 54:48.780 --> 54:54.440 I mean, that wouldn't be any different than other websites that posts. 54:55.240 --> 54:56.480 I mean, yeah. 54:58.140 --> 55:00.600 Like just verify the user. 55:01.480 --> 55:03.300 Um, I mean, I think the U.S. 55:03.300 --> 55:08.400 speaking of being behind and how other countries deal with it, I think the U.S. 55:08.400 --> 55:10.640 over criminalizes that behavior. 55:11.060 --> 55:36.040 Um, from my personal opinion on it, not my necessarily like legal opinion on it, but, um, yeah, I think there's a way to write these laws that doesn't make it like that makes consensual sex work legal and doesn't criminalize it and lets people do what people are going to do. 55:36.040 --> 55:39.520 Um, I mean, we're a country founded on privacy. 55:40.140 --> 55:42.120 Let people do what they want. 55:42.140 --> 55:55.480 And also a large portion of our, um, victim base are sex workers because, you know, you want your photos in a consensual way to be released to a certain market in a certain bubble. 55:55.480 --> 56:01.260 And once it releases outside of that, it can be just as harmful as for anyone else, you know? 56:01.380 --> 56:09.980 So I think that these, um, sorts of laws help and also harm, you know, it's double-ended. 56:10.140 --> 56:27.400 Yeah, Rachel, that's a good point too, is, um, I mean, you're, it's just because you're a sex worker doesn't mean that your copyrighted personal work isn't your intellectual property that you get to keep and that you're entitled to. 56:27.860 --> 56:29.360 It shouldn't matter. 56:29.360 --> 56:32.660 And consent for one doesn't consent to, to, if. 56:32.660 --> 56:39.500 Consent for one doesn't translate to consent for many, allowing a certain, I mean, even transactional consent is consent. 56:39.500 --> 56:40.700 And that is the thing that matters. 56:40.700 --> 56:49.940 And it's just as traumatic to have people that you didn't want to be seeing your images or, you know, often with sex workers, we find them doxxed, um, along with their images. 56:49.940 --> 56:53.420 So it's double the trauma right there. 56:53.420 --> 57:02.240 And I mean, I think it's the ultimate irony that we're speaking at a hacker conference where we talk about how broken copyright laws are in the DMCA. 57:02.240 --> 57:11.480 And at the same time, you know, that's one of our, as an organization, biggest tools to fight some of this, you know, is the copyright laws. 57:12.140 --> 57:12.860 Oh yeah. 57:13.620 --> 57:17.160 Um, hey, you know, we have a really important question I do want to address. 57:17.160 --> 57:20.160 Uh, this is from a friend of mine, Weems. 57:20.500 --> 57:30.160 Um, and they asked what should happen is allowing rules that help victims without removing liability protections platforms outside of CSAM and CP. 57:30.160 --> 57:40.160 I deeply, deeply concerned about the bills that have been proposed like earn it, which is definitely a pro-censorship law and even more worrying LAED Act, which would outlaw encryption in the US. 57:40.160 --> 57:42.600 And I want to know what the panel thinks about this. 57:42.940 --> 57:48.140 Um, anyone else want to take that one first or sort of cool. 57:48.140 --> 57:50.920 If I jump, you can do it. 57:50.920 --> 57:52.140 All right, cool. 57:52.220 --> 58:09.540 Um, you know, I kind of started in on this one with, you know, uh, foster SESTA and how, um, these laws they're you one, they're using CSAM as just, you know, a way to kind of put a friendly spin on this law. 58:09.540 --> 58:13.200 Like if, you know, your lawmakers aren't passing it, that's because they hate kids. 58:13.260 --> 58:19.420 Um, but really when it comes down to it, it's, um, removing the privacy of every user. 58:19.600 --> 58:29.160 Uh, and the fact is we've seen them be put in place and we see exactly how little they actually help the things that they're supposed to be, um, preventing. 58:29.220 --> 58:33.460 Um, what these laws are going to be doing is destroying censorship and freedom. 58:33.460 --> 58:34.380 And I don't think that's right. 58:34.420 --> 58:35.960 I hate these laws. 58:35.960 --> 58:45.480 They are, I feel like they've been, uh, bought and paid for by, you know, certain, um, you know, very specific lobbies. 58:45.480 --> 58:49.140 And I think they're bullshit and we've definitely, everybody needs to get involved. 58:49.140 --> 58:54.140 If there's anything that badass has proved, it's that everybody can get involved when it comes to legislation. 58:54.780 --> 58:58.560 And if you care about something, you need to start calling and making stuff happen. 58:58.560 --> 59:07.220 And you need to call your, um, lawmakers and talk to them about the earn it act and that, you know, encryption isn't really important. 59:07.220 --> 59:10.360 It should stay something that we have available. 59:11.200 --> 59:11.360 Yeah . 59:11.360 --> 59:13.680 I mean, Oh, sorry, Timmy, go ahead. 59:13.760 --> 59:14.600 Real quick. 59:14.600 --> 59:22.980 I'll take a, I'll take a line out of, uh, uh, talk Corey Doctorow gave at DefCon a couple of years ago about the war on general purpose computing. 59:22.980 --> 59:34.020 And something that I think these lawmakers forget is that it is not possible to make a general purpose computer that does everything except the one thing that you don't want it to do. 59:34.520 --> 59:37.060 Um, that's just not how computers work. 59:37.060 --> 59:38.600 That's not how math works. 59:38.640 --> 59:45.820 And that is a nuance that is lost by the old white men writing these laws. 59:48.040 --> 59:48.900 Yeah. 59:48.900 --> 59:51.640 And, um, that's a really good point. 59:51.760 --> 59:53.380 Oh, real quick. 59:53.380 --> 59:54.300 We got like a minute. 59:54.300 --> 59:57.720 So, Oh, I was just going to say, um, I thought you were telling me to stop. 59:57.720 --> 59:58.700 Um, sorry. 59:58.700 --> 59:59.020 Yeah. 59:59.020 --> 01:00:07.160 Uh, that's a really good point to me, but also like to go off what Caitlin was saying, like, um, there is a balance between free speech and censorship. 01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:25.420 And I think, um, if we're going to start doing things like outlawing encryption and censoring material, like we really need to take that into consideration and without boring y'all with Conwell jurisprudence, um, you know, that's, it's not something to be taken lightly. 01:00:25.680 --> 01:00:32.500 And I think we really need to examine how we do this and what precedent it could set for the future. 01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:35.300 I think Kate just really wanted to say jurisprudence. 01:00:35.700 --> 01:00:36.620 I did. 01:00:36.620 --> 01:00:36.900 Okay. 01:00:36.900 --> 01:00:37.380 All right. 01:00:37.380 --> 01:00:40.220 As long as we got that cleared up goal achieved. 01:00:40.220 --> 01:00:41.240 All right, real quick. 01:00:41.240 --> 01:00:43.420 Um, we are going to be going into the voice chat. 01:00:43.420 --> 01:00:44.540 I know I am. 01:00:44.580 --> 01:00:48.120 Um, cause frankly, y'all can't make me shut up. 01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:49.560 So yeah. 01:00:49.560 --> 01:00:59.960 Um, but I really quick, uh, I just want to see if anyone has one final message they'd like to share with the people watching and listening to this at DEF CON today. 01:00:59.960 --> 01:01:01.940 Anyone final message, Rachel. 01:01:02.520 --> 01:01:06.460 Um, I'd say, um, everyone, please reach out. 01:01:06.460 --> 01:01:20.160 If you have a question, comment, concern, we would love to hear you and we would love to, um, integrate you into our, our group of like, you know, sorry, I mean, I cut out the webcam. 01:01:20.200 --> 01:01:27.420 Um, I really feel that, you know, there's a place for everyone and you do not have to go through image abuse alone. 01:01:27.420 --> 01:01:28.640 We're here for you. 01:01:28.860 --> 01:01:30.140 And yeah. 01:01:32.340 --> 01:01:37.140 Oh, me. 01:01:37.140 --> 01:01:37.740 Yeah. 01:01:38.100 --> 01:01:38.660 Okay. 01:01:38.660 --> 01:01:39.800 I'll keep it quick. 01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:41.540 Uh, be awesome to one another. 01:01:41.540 --> 01:01:42.400 Fuck cloud flare. 01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:43.640 Black lives matter. 01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:46.700 All right. 01:01:46.700 --> 01:01:47.620 Allie. 01:01:48.780 --> 01:01:52.580 Going to echo Timmy's fuck cloud flare comment. 01:01:52.620 --> 01:01:55.720 Um, thanks for listening to us, reach out to us if y'all need anything. 01:01:55.720 --> 01:02:02.940 We're always around to answer questions and, um, we definitely are going to keep talking about this stuff. 01:02:02.940 --> 01:02:03.500 So. 01:02:04.980 --> 01:02:06.100 Marley. 01:02:06.640 --> 01:02:08.920 Uh, ditto on what everybody said. 01:02:08.920 --> 01:02:24.020 And to add to it, um, yeah, let's please keep talking about this, uh, conversation about how we can make laws that don't infringe on, um, speech and, um, encryption, but that will help victims. 01:02:24.020 --> 01:02:28.300 I think that's a really important conversation to have and your voices are really helpful. 01:02:28.820 --> 01:02:30.100 Okay. 01:02:30.120 --> 01:02:31.820 Do you just want us to do this again? 01:02:32.300 --> 01:02:38.460 No, ditto, uh, black lives matter and consent is key. 01:02:38.460 --> 01:02:40.720 I'll always get it. 01:02:40.720 --> 01:02:46.360 I'm gonna end this, uh, whole thing up by saying thank you to everyone out there watching. 01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:49.940 Thank you to the, you know, everyone organizing DEF CON this year. 01:02:49.940 --> 01:02:56.400 I know it has been crazy and chaotic and you haven't do a lot of things that is, that are brand new. 01:02:56.400 --> 01:02:59.580 And I just want to say it's been wonderful thus far. 01:02:59.600 --> 01:03:01.120 I miss you all. 01:03:01.120 --> 01:03:03.720 I can't wait to see you in Vegas next year. 01:03:03.820 --> 01:03:13.100 Um, and meanwhile, uh, you know, life is short, have all the orgasms, consensual, healthy orgasms, or cookies, depending on what you want. 01:03:13.220 --> 01:03:16.260 Um, and just stay badass. 01:03:16.740 --> 01:03:17.440 Peace.