start	end	text
2750	4490	Come on.
6630	7830	There we go.
7830	14650	Cool. All right. Welcome back, everybody. We have another Q&A with a couple of our speakers today.
14650	19770	We are going to be meeting with Rick and Wesley. How are you guys doing today?
20910	23190	Good. Good, basically. About good.
24130	28530	Awesome. I'm joined by my fellow goon, Pasties. Hey, Pasties.
28870	29650	Hey.
30250	34550	So, we do have a tradition with DEF CON Talks.
34590	41070	We're not going to let something like going virtual stop us from doing it.
41330	45090	We have two first-time speakers here at DEF CON.
45090	49900	They have been gracious enough to continue the ritual with us of shot the noob.
50450	53350	So, gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us at DEF CON.
53350	57270	We really appreciate you helping us put out wonderful content.
57630	58410	Cheers.
58410	59450	Cheers. Congrats.
59450	60010	Thank you.
62270	63210	All right.
63690	66310	Now, let's get down to it.
67830	69150	It's a good way to loosen up.
69430	70310	Yeah.
70610	71310	So, let's see.
71310	72370	I'm ready for talking.
72490	73630	Me too.
74490	79890	All right. So, Rick and Wesley gave us a presentation on hacking traffic lights,
79890	83490	which you can see on the YouTube server.
83490	86710	So, if you want to check that out, and hopefully you already have.
86710	94570	But if you have questions, then you can go into the TrackOneLiveQA channel on Discord and ask the questions there.
95770	99610	Rick, do you want to just kind of give just a real quick brief introduction of yourself?
99610	101410	And then we'll ask Wesley to do the same.
101410	103350	You guys kind of give an overview of your talk.
103350	104290	Super quick.
105290	105970	Okay.
105970	107470	Well, my name is Rick.
108870	113070	And I've been a pen tester for seven or eight years now.
113550	122210	And together with Wesley and Erik and Theo, we founded a company called Zolder, which is Attic in Dutch.
122570	128270	Because that's where we grew up, where we started playing with computers in our attics, having fun.
128890	130250	So, that's what we do.
130250	133230	And our talk is about smart traffic.
134470	138090	And ways we found playing with those apps.
138510	142710	You want to manipulate traffic as it flows.
143610	149090	And the reason we're here is because we noticed that this is something that's actually happening.
149090	152810	We were initially thinking that this is not something that's there yet.
152810	160970	And now you can actually see that this is something that's going to be impacting our lives way more than we were currently expecting.
160970	166390	We're going to have cars talking to each other, cars talking to traffic lights, all that kind of stuff.
167010	171350	So, when we looked at this innovation, we were like, okay, is this future ready?
171350	174850	Or is this more like a starting off kind of thing?
174850	179150	And, well, we figured that there's still some room for improvement.
179970	181550	Excellent. All right.
182750	183730	And Wesley?
184410	186370	Yeah, well, my name is Jesse.
186370	191730	Also, I've been mainly working as a pentester, also seven, eight years.
191730	200870	So, that was pentesting customers, advising them on how to fix the issues in a technical way, but also the phishing part of it.
201550	205050	Well, and together we started Solr.
205630	209910	And at Solr we are doing quite some security research.
209910	212290	And this is one of our research projects.
212290	217890	Because, yeah, we just like to investigate this kind of innovation.
217890	224710	Because, well, it actually surprised me that these kind of innovations are already in such a...
224710	230590	Well, they are already in quite a big process on creating this kind of platform.
230590	234390	So, that, well, surprised me that it's quite far already.
234390	237350	It's still in the beginning, but the ideas are very big.
237350	240210	And they are trying to build crazy stuff.
240210	245930	Was this something, like a topic that you guys just stumbled upon, or did you have it in the back of your head?
245930	251930	Or did you just see, like, the Italian job and you're just like, is that even possible?
252250	256530	Well, I mean, if you see that, you're like, immediately, like, I want that, obviously.
256890	262090	But I remember very clearly that Leslie was like, oh, look at this.
262090	263550	And he showed a video.
264330	269850	Yeah, we stumbled upon some articles in the Netherlands that they were telling, explaining
269850	275770	that there is an application that allows you to talk to, well, traffic lights, directly or indirectly.
275770	280070	And that was just, we just wanted to know, how does this work?
280070	284410	Because it was like, okay, so you're going to allow user input to the traffic system.
284410	288930	That sounds a little bit scary to me, because probably I can fake this.
288930	293870	And, yeah, what would the impact be if we could do that?
293870	296510	So that's the reason why we dived into it.
297070	301530	Yeah, we investigated it, and it's just fun to play around with it.
301770	303030	That's great.
303090	305410	So we do have a question from the chat.
306050	310790	Was there anything in particular that worried you, especially while you were doing this project?
313410	316710	Well, to be honest, no.
317510	324590	What I noticed is that we were able to manipulate the system.
324590	327050	We could get a green light.
327210	331890	But it's not like you can disable local security systems.
331890	337970	So let's say you're requesting a green light now at a certain traffic sign.
337970	343050	It doesn't mean that the others get ignored, and you don't get priority.
344170	349130	As for the impact of our own research, it didn't worry me so much.
349230	356990	But what does worry me is how will we, the entire world, implement this better.
357770	367610	Because if you're going to have systems talking to each other, that would mean all kinds of vendors talking to each other.
367610	371610	All the car vendors would need to have the same standards.
371810	374610	All the traffic signs need to go with all the cars.
374610	376050	Then it gets weird.
377210	380890	When it's that big, it can also get scary.
380890	383170	But for now, no.
383270	385750	I think that's the most challenging part.
385750	391630	A lot of companies have to work together to make this a success.
392870	396230	For example, to monitor for abuse on the network.
396230	399770	They all have to work together in the same way.
400070	402610	So that will be a big challenge.
409010	413310	What kind of thing really got you guys interested in this?
413310	417590	How did you get started with figuring out that you wanted to look into the traffic lights?
424540	427340	Sorry, I had some issues with the connection.
427460	429860	Can you repeat it?
429860	430420	Sure.
430940	440200	What got you interested in this topic that made you want to start looking into how the traffic lights work and how you can interact with them?
441260	446280	Yeah, like I said, I was surprised that they are being connected.
446280	450980	First, I was surprised that there are even being connected to the internet.
451400	454940	That just surprised me and it allows me to input.
455160	458980	So I was just curious if we can manipulate this.
459340	461380	Well, of course, it's cool.
461380	468520	If we would be able to turn a traffic light to green over the internet, that's just fun to do so.
468520	469560	Yeah.
470380	477700	I mean, like you said, the Italian job, and I think it's in Hackers.
479380	482780	That's something that would be extremely cool.
483180	485960	We couldn't do it like that, but still.
486220	490320	We got a light to go green, so that's already an inspiration.
491000	492280	Yeah.
492700	496180	So, we got another question from chat.
496180	499860	So, your talk primarily mentioned cycling apps.
500280	506160	And I do know you guys covered a little bit about privileged roles like ambulances.
506160	507840	You briefly mentioned those.
507840	509560	I went into how they authenticate.
509560	511700	I think that was with the PKI bits.
512360	523000	Is there a level of protection difference that you feel was between the messages that you're sending and messages that ambulances are sending?
523000	530540	Well, from our perspective, we looked at these apps for cyclists.
530540	535400	So, we were able to publish those against web services that were expecting cyclists.
535620	539840	And we did try, like, okay, now we're a bus or a tram.
539840	541080	It doesn't look what happens.
541080	542720	We didn't really notice a difference.
543380	548640	That's probably due to the fact that we were talking to a service for cyclists.
549380	554900	So, there are systems for ambulances.
555680	556640	But those are closed.
556640	563120	So, you wouldn't know what security systems are in place currently.
563120	577540	But the ITS standard, so the Intelligent Transport System standard, does propose, like, the PKI system where they say, like, okay, you get a certificate.
577540	580420	And the certificate describes the roles you have.
580420	585760	So, you are allowed to get to do, like, sirens are on and stuff like that.
585760	591200	But that's a standard that's not necessarily implemented.
591200	591560	Correct.
591560	592860	Even if you implement it.
592880	598300	Let's say the Dutch government implements this and offers this to the different suppliers here in the Netherlands.
598660	599060	Yep.
599180	603820	And you go to, I don't know, ambulance builder company, I don't know.
604000	607120	And you say, like, okay, you need to be compliant with this standard.
607120	610980	They're going to be like, it's a small country, 18 million people, go away.
612620	620580	I feel like even, like, an 18 million strong country would be capable of swaying a little bit in that kind of, like...
620580	622080	I know sales people.
622080	624140	They will work.
624140	625240	They will promise it.
625240	625880	Yeah.
626200	627280	I don't know.
627400	630020	Sometimes you put a little bit of pressure on them.
634300	638880	There was one application available which we were at least able to download.
638880	639720	It was for trucks.
639720	644680	So, the trucks would get a green flow, yeah, if you're driving a truck.
644680	648740	But the vendors had authentication on that.
648740	652000	So, it was still a closed application for us.
652000	654680	So, that's the reason why we dived into the cycling.
654680	656860	Because that was available for us.
658960	661500	So, how widespread is this?
661500	664220	Does the cycling app work with, like, any traffic vendors?
664220	666560	Is this, like, an international standard that this just works everywhere?
666560	669360	Or is this something that, like, a city has to opt into?
669360	673560	Or they just have to choose this particular traffic light vendor or something?
674920	675740	Do you guys...
676300	678860	Well, they are working on the standard.
679500	683500	They are replacing all the old traffic light systems for new ones.
683500	684820	So, they will be intelligent.
684820	687380	And they are capable to talk with each other.
687500	688280	That's the goal.
688280	694320	But they are still trying to replace all the traffic light systems to be able to do that.
694940	700900	So, currently, it's just the vendors doing it on their own traffic light systems.
700960	702280	On their own.
702280	707600	But the final goal is to be able to talk everyone to everyone.
707600	710000	And be compatible with everyone.
710020	714000	So, it's not yet cross-vendor.
714000	718140	They will try to implement standards so you can actually have your app...
719120	721260	That was where my next question was going to go.
721260	724140	It's like, how does the cross-vendor stuff work?
724140	727400	If this was more than just, like, one system that's doing it.
727480	731020	Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
731020	734240	This is what surprised me.
734240	736960	There are more companies that do this than I expected.
738740	741820	And there are actually more companies that build traffic lights.
742020	743740	Which also surprised me.
746220	748220	But they all want to be the next Google, right?
749540	751160	So, they all want to be the next Google.
751160	753360	They all want to, like, look at our app.
753360	754640	Look at our traffic light.
754640	756440	It's the smartest in our way.
757320	760320	So, everybody has to follow our standards.
760820	765300	But they are, luckily, they are cooperating under a bigger project.
765520	768200	But that's, like, on a separate track.
768200	769840	But they are doing wonderful things.
771520	773000	And also interesting.
773000	775080	We are doing it in the Netherlands right now.
775080	779040	But, of course, we want to be compatible with the whole of Europe.
779040	780600	So, it's also a challenge.
780740	783000	It's a really big project.
783000	785500	And we are trying to achieve that.
787400	791040	We do have a bunch more questions coming in chat.
791640	793280	Do you want to ask any more?
793280	795380	I don't want to take up all the space.
795560	797800	No, go for it.
797800	799660	Okay, cool.
800120	803100	So, one is sort of a safety question.
803100	806900	This seems, like, good to address.
806900	809620	Because you guys did bring it up beforehand in our little chat.
809620	816280	Do you guys wind up, if you could effectively shut down an intersection to a direction by spoofing a long-stream cyclist?
816280	820500	It's not quite what we had going for, but it's along those safety tracks.
820500	822920	And Phoenix does, like I'm curious, do.
825700	827900	No, we haven't tried that, no.
827900	831680	Just, like, consistently sending those messages to see if you can just sort of keep it great?
832220	840500	Well, yeah, we've tried to do multiple messages in a couple of seconds, or just in a loop.
840500	846700	And the system was just trying to turn green light on every time.
846700	850460	So, yeah, it waits until the system allows it to go to green.
850460	853460	So, it was just constantly requesting green.
853660	856280	And the system would do it whenever it was possible.
856280	858540	But it was not pressing or something.
858540	860060	It would just keep on working.
860060	864720	Maybe if you do it a lot, like a denial of service, you might succeed in it.
864720	867360	But, yeah, that was not our goal.
867360	872360	But when it's working appropriately, you sending a bunch of messages is just like an annoying pedestrian
872360	875660	just pushing the sidewalk button a thousand times before it turns red.
875660	877960	Yeah, all the time. You're just pushing it.
877960	880720	And if it turns off, you're just pushing it on again.
880720	883240	And that's the behavior that it creates.
883360	884980	Yeah, that's great.
887040	892040	Did you guys reach out to any of the... I mean, I guess this is one app maker in specific.
892040	897440	But did you reach out to them for any comments or tell them about this at all?
897680	900760	Yeah, we reached out to both vendors.
902740	905640	Yeah, they were going to look into it.
907560	908880	Classic response?
909360	910240	Sorry?
910260	912360	I said classic response. Sorry.
912360	914760	Yeah, they were actually pretty interested.
914760	916800	They sent a few calls.
918760	921080	One of the vendors had an old plan.
921200	924180	We have this plan, this plan, this plan, this plan.
924180	925700	What do you think works?
926400	929780	And the other vendor was like, OK, could you help us with this?
930500	932160	Those were cool responses.
933300	936520	But at the same time, they were like, yeah, but these are device calls.
936740	938000	How do we do that?
938000	944340	Yes, the standard has a security solution in it, but there's nobody providing the public key infrastructure
945020	949060	There's no authorities yet in the smart traffic space.
949800	953900	So, they are willing. They are looking into it.
955380	958940	But also at the same time stating, it's quite hard.
958940	960420	How bad is it for a bike?
960420	962460	Which we actually agree on.
962520	969120	This is fun and it can be annoying, but that's about to extend to the impact.
970500	978980	So, the reason why we're talking about this is we think it's really important that other people know that this is even happening.
978980	981000	And maybe we should look into this.
981180	981780	Yes, we should.
982180	985960	It's got to be the basis for a lot of infrastructure for all of us.
986460	990760	And also they had quite an interesting challenge.
990760	993660	Because they don't want to harm the privacy of the users.
993660	997480	So, they don't want to track every cyclist in the city.
997480	1000120	Yes, that's good.
1000760	1002900	But that's quite an issue.
1002900	1009280	Because you need somehow an identifier to know that a bicyclist is the same as before.
1009560	1011860	But then you've got some privacy issues.
1011860	1016520	So, they don't want to track the users, but they want to know that it's the same.
1016520	1019760	So, that's quite a challenge for them.
1019760	1022840	Yes, an interesting challenge.
1023700	1029100	You guys just did a natural lead into two both very important questions that were in the chat.
1029700	1038640	Anna asks, do you have a guesstimate for when an implementation of a system like this could be secure enough to be a no-brainer?
1038640	1047740	If it was implemented globally as a vendor thing, and do you think that the benefits are actually worth the risks of having this kind of connectivity into our traffic systems?
1050640	1053140	I actually think it's worth it.
1053140	1055680	Might be worth it.
1055680	1057280	You mean for cyclists?
1057460	1061360	No, no. I mean, for cyclists, this seems like the safest thing.
1063820	1065620	You want to see what I can do?
1080660	1086020	Pedestrian crossing signs are regularly not placed someplace that as a biker I can hit.
1086740	1090840	But I still want the pedestrian crossing light quite frequently.
1091480	1102420	So, I can definitely see why I would want to use this kind of system, but that doesn't mean tying my phone into critical infrastructure, basically.
1103560	1106840	We actually have quite some bike roads in the Netherlands.
1106840	1109000	We have more bikes than people.
1110360	1115040	So, people use this as a mode of transport.
1115700	1121140	I think there are probably only people that really enjoy the whole bike thing.
1122500	1127640	And I actually think if you make it hard to get an account of this,
1128380	1133660	maybe even like the, how many boats do you see in these pictures?
1133740	1135440	Like the Google CupJab.
1136480	1139520	Then, at least, if somebody's proof, he's one bike.
1139520	1143480	Or if he's really persistent, he's probably 10 bikes.
1144120	1149940	But I mean, he's not going to hire a pig farm somewhere to get all the CupJabs.
1149940	1158340	So, I think they would have very little security extra features on it.
1158340	1159840	Very little tracking.
1160420	1165840	And it would still make it more difficult for somebody to play with this.
1166020	1172820	But I think in a broader perspective, where, I don't know, traffic is talking to each other.
1173780	1176380	Traffic lights, road signs.
1176380	1180040	There's an incident and all the cars get alerted to it.
1180040	1182120	An ambulance needs to get somewhere.
1182120	1186880	And all the traffic lights ahead of it know when to turn green for that particular...
1186880	1189220	So, the ambulance gets there faster.
1189460	1193140	Those kind of innovations are, I think, really important.
1193720	1198280	Economically, because if the trucks are faster and easier to get there, it's better for us.
1198280	1200460	If we have less traffic, it's better for us.
1200460	1202960	But also from a safety perspective.
1202960	1210060	Because I do believe that eventually machines will be better at driving than we are.
1210780	1218620	And if that's the case, if we have such a system, then it's really important that this whole thing is a bit more secure.
1218860	1220340	I don't know how long it will take.
1220340	1222340	Probably a pretty long time.
1222340	1224920	But when the big car companies...
1224920	1226480	Like, we're going to do this.
1226940	1229020	I think it might go far.
1229020	1238380	So, based off of some past experience with car research, do you feel like this is a place where the vendors are going to...
1238380	1241600	Like, they're intentionally trying to set this up correctly?
1242080	1246900	Or do you think this is going to be another one of those situations where security is a second-class citizen?
1247700	1248340	I don't know.
1248340	1249320	Any thoughts?
1249420	1252020	I have very little experience with car security.
1252020	1253480	How is car security?
1254140	1255580	No ecosystem.
1255580	1262340	I mean, there is a car-hacking village, and I've never known those guys to fail.
1264920	1265480	So...
1265480	1266760	It was fun.
1267100	1268080	Yes.
1271600	1273900	Cliver, do you have any questions lined up?
1275400	1276520	Let's see.
1276620	1279960	Well, we can throw the one from Fenix out there.
1279960	1287280	Fenix asked, in your talk, you mentioned you saw one app sending what looked like CAM data being sent over MQTT,
1287280	1291660	which maybe implies it's just being directly routed to the controlling systems.
1291660	1296760	Are you looking to do follow-up research on the server side or controller components?
1299720	1308120	Well, we would really like to do so, but of course, the vendor has to give the access in order to do so.
1308120	1314240	So, yeah, of course, we would really like to do research further on this and dive into it.
1314240	1318000	So, yeah, I would definitely like it to do so.
1318440	1323040	But, yeah, the vendor also has to work with us together.
1323100	1327140	But we are in good contact with them, so who knows?
1327620	1328500	Hopefully.
1329980	1334360	Yeah, they actively said that they wanted to work with you.
1334360	1335880	It's heartening for me.
1338120	1344900	Is there, like, a next for you guys? Because I know a lot of times you kind of just run out of time for your research.
1344900	1351260	Are there future plans on what you want to look into going forward, or have you taken this as far as you want to?
1353460	1355320	No, I don't think it's...
1355880	1364440	If we get the chance to play with some of the stuff, I mean, there's stuff apparently, and we don't think it can do a thing.
1364960	1366320	I want to do a thing.
1367040	1377640	There might be, like, trucks or other car apps that might come out, or other of these cool new innovations.
1377640	1381320	But getting access is usually the hard part.
1381660	1387380	But if you can get access, I mean, it would definitely be fun.
1387680	1390420	But, I mean, the moment you start...
1390420	1395820	Like, let's say one of these companies allows access to their internal stuff.
1396580	1399560	It's probably not going to be a difficult thought, unfortunately.
1410820	1412380	Us too.
1420420	1424380	Like, had to cut because you were short on time, or anything like that?
1426780	1429720	We had to remove Burt from Burtner.
1430500	1432820	That hurt, man. That hurt.
1434020	1438720	So, we had, like, Burt, the gif, where he's like...
1438720	1445480	And, um, we had that because we had something like a line, like, they're allowing us to talk to traffic lights.
1445680	1447460	So we had a Burt surprise.
1447460	1451340	And then we got feedback, like, no, you can't have that.
1451640	1455680	We had to remove that because it's probably copyrighted.
1455680	1457060	Oh, okay, yeah, fair enough.
1457060	1459080	You mentioned the Italian job.
1459080	1471940	And the thing is, I spent... I wasted a good four hours cutting together footage from the Italian job, hackers, and watchdogs.
1472460	1478060	Just so we could have, like, a ten-second video where it's like, this dog is talking about this.
1478060	1480820	And then show, like, all these crazy car hacks.
1481200	1483700	And it was such a nice intro, and I was so proud of it.
1483780	1487720	And the first thing we go back, like, no, that can't happen. We have to remove that.
1487840	1490660	Oh, that's unfortunate. Fair use.
1491120	1492180	Fair use.
1492380	1493100	Yeah.
1501480	1503340	Yeah, it's still working through.
1505620	1507740	We're approaching the end of our sessions.
1508960	1512860	Usually this is where the questions start to die out.
1513980	1520240	Do you guys have any advice for somebody else that wants to just kind of dig in and begin this kind of research?
1520240	1524060	I know there's a lot of people out there that think what you guys did is really interesting.
1524060	1527140	And, like, maybe people think, like, why can't I do that?
1527140	1531560	Could they? And how would you give them advice on how to start the type of research that you two do?
1534080	1539500	Well, I think just look into the inventions that are going on in your country.
1539500	1544220	Because, well, I didn't know that this kind of cool stuff was going on in the Netherlands.
1544220	1547600	But, yeah, some article pointed us on that.
1547880	1556980	But I think with some googling you can find some cool stuff and just look into the things that they already have released and dive into it, yeah.
1557280	1557800	Yeah.
1558840	1564960	I think get Greenlight mobile app.
1565080	1567080	And then just see what pops up.
1567080	1570600	And there's probably some company trying something out.
1570600	1575260	And then after that just pull it to Burp.
1575260	1579100	See what it sends to the backend.
1579600	1581240	And see what happens.
1581240	1584260	Maybe decompile the app.
1584260	1585780	See how it works.
1585780	1591940	I mean, I remember when some of those news articles come out, I don't care.
1592280	1593820	I can't read them.
1594300	1598980	And Wesley has like a skill where he's actually like, oh, this is interesting.
1599220	1602080	And my default mode is like, no care, go away.
1602220	1606340	And then after like a couple of minutes, he was like, oh, but look, this is really interesting.
1606340	1608440	And then I was like, oh, wow, he's right.
1608440	1614660	And so keep an open mind with those kind of things.
1614660	1615740	Really important.
1616060	1619480	And I remember when we were trying to, but you were like, okay, this is common.
1619940	1622420	Can we just create a Python script?
1623000	1623200	Yeah.
1624900	1627660	Like ASM1 encoded.
1627660	1629340	So our own scheme.
1629340	1632500	And then through Protobuf, Google Protobuf.
1632500	1634880	And then push it to MP3.
1638640	1643860	And after a while, they were like, okay, you spent way too much time on this.
1643920	1645920	Can't we just modify the app?
1645920	1647600	And I was like, what the fuck?
1647600	1648840	What do you mean modify the app?
1648840	1650680	I've been spending way too much time on this.
1650680	1653600	We are not quitting this venue.
1655000	1656820	To keep on trying.
1656900	1659660	And if it doesn't work, try to find a workaround.
1659860	1661120	Yeah, work smarter.
1663000	1666640	Frida was way easier because he just instrumented the app.
1666920	1672320	And modified the browser before he got to the function that actually created the object.
1672320	1676560	So he was pretty good for it.
1677640	1678860	To go in.
1680600	1683880	Sometimes something can be sitting right in front of you and you just need a fresh pair of eyes.
1683880	1686420	And you're just like, why aren't you just doing this?
1686420	1688780	Yeah, but that's a lot in our own business.
1690480	1693140	Yeah, another few is important.
1693600	1695760	The solution might be very easy.
1696380	1699740	It's really easy to go full laser on a problem.
1705860	1708080	We are approaching the end of our time.
1708080	1710000	I think we've got two minutes left in our session.
1710000	1717960	Is there anything you guys want to shout out or call out or do before the Q&A session ends?
1717960	1722980	Yeah, if anybody has more questions and they wanted to reach you after this, how would they do that?
1724840	1728560	Twitter, I think it's the easiest way. Just a direct message.
1731160	1732440	What's your Twitter?
1733800	1735440	Just my name.
1735440	1736420	Just your name?
1737120	1743240	Maybe we can drop it in the track one talk as soon as the Q&A session ends.
1743960	1749640	You can reach out on Twitter if there's anything you want to know or if you want to play around with it.
1749660	1753680	Or if you want to learn something or you have a question about the tool or something.
1754560	1755440	Perfect.
1756440	1763320	Well, thank you both a ton for doing a talk at Virtual DEF CON Safe Mode.
1763840	1766660	Thank you for doing this Q&A session. It's been great.
1767820	1772300	Yeah, I hope you guys participate in DEF CON again.
1772300	1774100	Yeah, it's very cool.
1774320	1776400	It was really fun.
1776520	1777080	Yeah.
1777680	1778480	Alright.
1780480	1781880	Thanks so much for doing this.
1782520	1787440	And everybody come on back in about a half an hour and we'll have a couple more speakers and goons here to talk with you.
1787520	1788260	Thanks guys.