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Hey AppSecVillage, welcome back.

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I hope you're having a great time at DEF CON 2020 and you're enjoying the speakers that we have in the village.

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This next topic is one I think is really, really very important and something we don't talk about often enough.

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It is entitled, The Elephant in the Room, Burnout.

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I've been in IT for over 30 years, and in that time I've seen burnout in colleagues, in friends, and sometimes even in myself.

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It's an important topic, and we're going to hear from Chloe Mostagi, who is the VP of Strategy at Point3 Security.

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She's an ethical hacker advocate who strongly believes that information security is a humanitarian issue.

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Besides her passion to keep people safe and empowered, both online and offline, she is driven to fight for hacker rights.

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She is the founder of WeAreHackers, formerly known as WomenHackers, and the president and co-founder of the Women of Security, a podcast for ITSP magazine's The Uncommon Journey, and runs the Hacker Book Club.

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Please welcome Chloe to the AppSecVillage stage.

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Hi everyone, my name is Chloe Mostagi, and I'm so excited to share a talk with you around burnout for AppSecVillage.

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Now, before we begin, I know that this might be kind of emotional for some of you, so if you do, please do this one practice, which is six breaths in one minute.

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So, breathe in through your nose, exhale through your mouth, and do that six times within the minute if you're feeling like it's a little too much at times.

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So, let's begin.

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I'm looking forward to this talk.

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Let me just share my screen with you.

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One second.

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Okay, so we're going to talk about the elephant in the room, burnout.

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Which, it really is an elephant in the room, because most of the time, we never really hear about burnout when we're in our office.

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We tend to hear it outside of our office.

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And when it comes to mental health, it isn't something that most companies practice.

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And so, this pandemic, though, has been able to bring it more forward.

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So, this talk is going to cover about burnout, what you can do yourself, and if you are an employer, manager, I also will give you some tips as well.

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So, let's dive into this.

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For those that don't know who I am, my name is Chloe Mastaggi.

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I'm the VP of Strategy at Point3 Security.

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I'm an ethical hacker advocate as well.

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You're wondering, what is that exactly?

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Basically, I look around the community and I listen to what people say about how things can be improved for hackers, and making sure that they have rights is one of them, but also making sure that all voices are being represented and seen equally at the table.

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Well, let's just pretend an InfoSec table of them all.

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I'm also the president and co-founder of WOSEC, which is Women of Security.

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We have chapters all over the world for women and also for non-binary as well.

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I'm also the founder of WeAreHackers, which is formerly known as Women Hackers.

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We are a private virtual community for, basically, underrepresented genders who hack at all levels.

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We do workshops, we do events and activities, but it's a good community to be part of.

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So then, you know, if you ever need support, you want to know the latest trends and tools, hey, guess what?

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We have a cool platform for you to join.

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And yes, WeAreHackers from WOSEC is completely free.

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You'll never have to pay anything.

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I'm also the Hacker Book Club organizer.

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So basically, we meet every week on Tuesday at 5 p.m.

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Pacific time, that is.

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And we read a book, basically, that is about the hacker community or is written by someone from the hacker community.

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So every month we start a new book.

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And I think the upcoming one is Tribe of Hackers, the Red Team Edition.

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So very excited.

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And yes, authors do attend our meetings.

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And also, those that are mentioned in the book.

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I'm also a podcaster for ITSP magazines, The Uncommon Journey with Alyssa Miller and also with Phil Wiley.

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And yes, that is my URL.

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So if you want to learn more about me, it's right there.

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And also, my Twitter and Instagram, my DMs are always open.

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So feel free to ask me anything or just if you want to get to know me, that's the best place to start.

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So let's dive into the things that actually matter.

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So I'm going to give you some scenarios to know whether or not that you're dealing with burnout yourself.

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So first things first, I want you to imagine you're driving in your car.

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And while you're driving in your car, you need to merge to the other lane.

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And by merging to the other lane, let's say the left lane.

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Now when you're thinking about merging to the other lane, something comes over you where you're like, well, what if I don't look in my mirror when I make my merge?

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Maybe I'll get an accident, which is great because that means I don't have to do this task, this assignment.

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I don't have to go to work.

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I have a valid excuse for everything.

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And then I could get a break finally from all the stuff that I'm drowning in.

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This is a sign of burnout when it gets really bad.

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Another example of how some people tend to notice that they're dealing with burnout is with their emails.

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For example, it used to take you like a couple of minutes to respond to an email.

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Now it takes you 10 minutes, maybe an hour, maybe a couple hours, maybe a day or two.

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And then next thing you know, your inbox is just flooded and you don't know what to do because it's just so many emails and it's overwhelming you.

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Or another example is, for example, declining phone calls from your friends and families and maybe your colleagues or not respond to their text messages in time.

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It might not be because you're busy.

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It's just because you see them as a task.

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You see them as something you have to do another thing on top of everything else that you're doing.

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And so you start seeing people that are your friends, your family, your loved ones as kind of like a responsibility and a task.

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And it puts a lot of extra weight on you.

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That's one of the other signs of burnout.

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But for many people, when they're burned out, their emotions can be pretty all over the place.

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And what I mean by that is like you can suddenly get really angry and really sad and you really don't know why.

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But you just feel like your emotions are kind of up in the air and it's very hard to control them sometimes.

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Or you just you start noticing like you're just feeling bothered a lot easier.

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And one of the things to know about burnout is the sense of feeling of being trapped.

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You feel trapped.

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You might feel empty.

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You just feel like no matter what you do, it's just overwhelming.

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Due date.

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So let's dive into this.

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We all kind of procrastinate.

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I'll be real with you.

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I procrastinate too.

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When I'm like, this is not a big thing.

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I don't have the energy nor the time to do this yet.

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I'm going to wait till the last minute to get it done.

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And then you get into this like certain flow and then you're like, okay, I got this.

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Well, let me tell you about burnout procrastination.

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It's a little bit more different than that.

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It means that you basically you're so overwhelmed that you really can't hit your deadlines.

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And it's not because you feel like you have too many tasks assigned to you.

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Sometimes it's just this feeling of being stuck and overwhelmed that you can't even focus on anything.

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And so because you've lost this ability to focus, you keep procrastinating.

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And sometimes you'll push out deadlines just because of it.

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But as we all know, burnout gives this feeling of fatigue or exhaustion.

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No matter how many hours of sleep that you get, it's just never enough.

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And this could be like nine or ten hours and it's just never enough.

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You just feel so, so tired.

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And you get kind of, sometimes people get foggy in a sense in their mind.

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So it's very hard for them to focus on other things.

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But the one thing to note is that when you're burned out, you just feel like, I just can't do this.

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If someone hands you another task, you're like, oh my God, I really can't handle this.

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I just can't.

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I can't do this.

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I'm not responding to that.

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I just can't do this.

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Which is a normal response when you're overwhelmed, especially with the world how we're in in 2020.

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It's like the most surreal year many of us have ever experienced.

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And so, yeah, we're going to be disorganized in our head because there's a lot of emotional stuff happening.

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And so burnout is not always about work.

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It could also be emotional burnout from what's happening in your life and not being able to feel like a sense of able to breathe.

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You just feel stuck and you don't know how to handle it.

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And it's overwhelming.

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I mean, we're all working from home.

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We're not able to go to bars and meet friends or go out for dinners or, you know, some people even have to cancel their wedding or postpone it.

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It's very different right now because we feel like we don't have control of our life.

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And I mean, it's a kind of a silly thing because we really don't have control of our life to a certain extent.

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I mean, but we have this ability to know that we're able to predict a little bit more.

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And now these days, we can only predict what's going to happen probably that day.

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It's very hard to be able to figure out, OK, so I could do this tomorrow or that next week because we don't even know what the situation is going to look like in the world in a day or two or a week.

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With the pandemic and also the political turmoil that's happening around the world, it's bringing things unease.

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And I want you to know that it's OK to not be OK.

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I don't think any one of us feels OK right now.

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And that's the thing we need to know is that, yes, burnout can be from work and everything, but it's also we're going through a lot as human beings right now.

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So we're going to talk about that.

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But the first thing to note is a very broad way of speaking about burnout.

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I want you to imagine that you're like some sort of device that hasn't been charged or it's at the very end of a charge.

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That's what burnout is like.

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It's like you are a device and your battery is just dying and been on red, I guess, for a while.

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But I want to let you guys know I am not a therapist, but I have dealt with burnout.

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I've dealt with some pretty bad burnouts in my lifetime.

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But the one thing I know for sure is that by working with therapists to try to promote mental health in the workplace for security teams all over, the one thing I actually know about is these are some primal ways how to prevent and how to help yourself if you're dealing with burnout right now.

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So I hope you take this as advice as a friend, not as a therapist, once again.

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But the first thing I want to let you know is that you should probably see a doctor.

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And the reason for that is sometimes burnout can cause from having low certain amounts of vitamins in your body.

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For example, if you're low in vitamin D or low in iron or vitamin Bs, you're going to have issues when it comes to focusing.

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So it's really important to get checked out by your doctor, making sure your vitals are all OK, because sometimes it's just that.

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Maybe you just have very low iron and by taking supplements, you start feeling better.

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So just keep that in mind.

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It's always good to just get checked out for that before you jump to if it's something also happening mentally.

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But you can still do all these steps I'm going to tell you about anyway, regardless.

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Actually, you should be practicing them right now because things are just amazing.

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OK, let's go.

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So what does burnout textbook definition is?

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Burnout is a state of emotional, physical, mental exhaustion caused by excessive prolonged stress.

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It occurs when you feel overwhelmed, emotionally drained and unable to meet constant demands.

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And yes, there is a quiz at the bottom there that you can go and do yourself.

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But I want to let you guys know that if you don't like your job, it's going to be great for you.

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If you love your job, it's not going to be as good for you.

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So those examples that I used at the very beginning of this talk, those you should use that as your guidelines to see whether or not you're starting to feel like you're in burnout or if you are burned out already.

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So we're going to talk first about how to prevent.

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Now, on the tips on how to prevent, you could do this anyway if you are already burned out.

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So this is really good for you to know.

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Now, the thing is, is that usually the recommendation is exercise, eat a balanced diet, practice good sleep habits, ask for help.

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But let's be real right now.

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Exercise, that's not a possibility maybe because gyms are all closed.

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And yeah, let's just start there.

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Eat a balanced diet.

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Yeah, it would be great if we could eat a balanced diet.

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But the one thing for sure I'll tell you about is how many trips to the grocery store can you go to without putting yourself at risk or your loved ones at risk.

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So it's a little bit harder to get all those things.

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Not just that, things tend to go quickly in the grocery stores these days as well.

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So what I mean by this eat a balanced diet, I want you more to be focused on what you are eating and what you're consuming when it comes to beverages.

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You know when you're a little bit more burned out is when you're taking in more caffeine than usual.

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So keep that in mind.

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So if you're reaching for more caffeine than the usual, please note that you probably are dealing with some burnout or you're overwhelmed or you're getting close to it.

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If you are reaching for more alcohol these days, please also make note of that because when people are burned out, they're more likely to drink more alcohol than they usually do.

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And that means also if you're on any drugs or anything like that, if you're reaching more for it or you never did it before and now you are, I think it's time for you to take a pause and reevaluate what's going on.

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Now the other thing about balanced diet is that when we are craving salty, sugary things, that's usually when we're trying to help ourselves emotionally deal with what's happening.

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So do keep an eye on your eating habits.

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So emotional burnout will do that to you where you'll just kind of like emotionally consume and many of us do it or some of us don't even eat while we're emotionally overwhelmed.

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So keep an eye on how you eat and your patterns.

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It's going to be really important.

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And if that means keeping a little note of things that you're eating, drinking and whatnot, and then comparing it later on, so be it.

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Just don't do the calorie thing because that becomes kind of unhealthy.

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So stay away from that.

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Now when it comes to practice good sleep habits, yes, it wouldn't be fantastic if we could sleep without insomnia.

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Good old days.

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But the thing is to be realistic with you is that sleep habits that are good is trying your best to kind of like, you know, stay away from your devices about an hour before bed can really help.

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But the other thing is, there are some techniques on how to prevent that will also help reduce your chances of having insomnia.

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So we'll be able to work through that together because I don't know about you, but the first couple months of the pandemic, I couldn't sleep.

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I was constantly worried that I would have it and I would get to my parents and I would lose my parents because of me.

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And so that was a really heavy weight and I couldn't really sleep for a good number of weeks.

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Because I would just wake up during the night, just all rattled up.

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And that's the reality.

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We're in a tricky situation, like I said.

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And so it's okay if you're not getting good sleep habits going on right now.

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It's understandable.

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Don't feel guilty about it.

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Because you're trying to figure out what's going on in the world in a very interesting time that many of us have never experienced before.

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So, you know, take a deep breath, appreciate yourself, because you're trying to do whatever you can to make you feel okay right now.

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And, you know, that's a good step forward, in my opinion.

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Ask for help.

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No matter what, whatever it is, ask for help is always important.

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So even in the middle of a pandemic, you can always ask for help.

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You just need to know who to go to.

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Anyway, let's go into what I think are probably the best steps forward on how to prevent.

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First things first, you got to be self-aware.

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You will not know if you're burned out unless you know you are burned out.

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Some people will come up to you and be like, hey, I noticed you used to have this type of behavior and now you're kind of switching things up.

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Try not to get to that point where someone's telling you what's going on and you, you should be able to know what's happening with you.

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And I'm going to teach you some of those ways.

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So first things first, if you notice in your inbox that it's taking longer to respond, please know you might be dealing with burnout and or you are getting close to being burned out.

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One of the best tricks that I can tell you about whether or not you are burned out is when you feel like your personal life and your work life are off balance.

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And so because of that, that's going to cause you to have issues when it comes to focusing, feeling like everything's a task around you, feeling overwhelmed, because you're also losing a part of yourself to in the middle of it.

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So it's really important to keep your work and personal life balanced in the middle of a pandemic, which is a lot easier to say than, you know, to do.

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For some of us, we have kids and that makes it really hard because they're always around and we don't get breaks.

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But the thing is just to be aware that you need to find a way how to have that work and personal life balance, even if you're working from home.

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So self-awareness is really important on that front.

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The other thing is just constantly feeling exhausted is another one.

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And seeing if your emotions go from like sudden sadness or anger, and you usually don't have those as much, that's going to be one of those things as well.

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So I hope those are some good takeaways.

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So if you just feel like something isn't right, it might be a good time to start doing these preventative techniques.

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Honestly, I feel like we should all be doing these techniques regardless, just to be on the safe side.

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But the first things first is having a self-awareness, it's hard, but there's ways how to learn out.

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I mean, and by learn out, I mean to learn about it.

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So what I do is I journal.

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Yes, my lovely Little Prince journal.

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If any of you guys are Little Prince fans, high five virtually.

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It's really important for you to journal.

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So one of the things that I realized is like by writing weekly or every day is as much as you can.

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Okay, don't put it like every day, I'm going to journal everything because the thing is, you might fail at that.

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And you don't want to feel like a failure right now either.

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So the thing is, be open about it.

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Be like, you know what, I feel like journaling today.

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If you do, then journal.

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If you don't, then don't.

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But the thing is, by journaling, you have a better idea of what's going on deep down inside.

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For example, once you write something, read it, see what you're talking about.

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And then what you should also do is look at your previous kind of journaling as well in your journal to see if there's any patterns that you're seeing.

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It's really important to see patterns because you'll start seeing what's going on deep down inside, this feeling of trappedness.

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If that's showing up in your writing, then that should let you know that you're feeling overwhelmed and pressure wise.

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The other thing that's really important about writing it versus typing it, it's because it's like a free flow.

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So you're able to actually really like just take everything out of your head onto a piece of paper.

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It's something that's very personalized too.

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So I really do recommend doing it by paper and pen if you can.

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If not, typing is totally okay.

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But I do recommend journaling as much as possible, but only do it when you're feeling comfortable doing so.

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And that's how you kind of get a better idea of what's going on deep down inside that you may not have known.

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As some of you guys know, I do take breaks from my devices and there's reasons for that.

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I do a device detox.

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I know it sounds very goop.

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I understand that and everything.

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But the thing is, it really does help.

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By taking a break from Twitter, it's amazing.

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I cannot tell you enough.

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Sometimes when you go on Twitter, you're just like, and everything is burning.

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Fantastic.

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So just know that for a fact that like taking time off from your devices is going to be really important.

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And I'm not suggesting you throwing any devices out the door or on the ground.

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I mean, believe me, there are times where I see tweets and I'm like, are you kidding me?

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And there is points where I feel like I want to throw something, but don't do it.

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So overall, take a break is really important.

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So you want to make sure that you take one day a week, a break from InfoSec.

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And you're like, wait, what?

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Yes, you need to.

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You need to take a day off every week.

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That's to do nothing that's InfoSec related.

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This is going to help rebalance yourself.

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Because the thing is, in InfoSec itself, we work 24-7.

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Security never sleeps.

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Come on.

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So the thing is, is that it's one type of industry that it's constantly working around the clock.

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Even if you're not supposedly working, you're still thinking about it.

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So the thing is, it's really important to take a break.

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So take one day a week of a break.

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And what I mean by that also is turn off your devices and get off social media for one day per week.

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And this could be anywhere from four hours to eight hours or beyond that.

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Now, when you do set up your break time every week, which I recommend the weekend, by the way, make sure to message your loved ones to let them know that you're going to be taking some time off from devices.

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And if they need to reach you, this is the way to do it.

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Just to know for them to know that you're okay, but also just in case of emergencies as well.

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So make sure you do that.

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The other thing, like I said, about journaling, you know, writing, it helps a lot.

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But having a to-do list is really important too.

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So what I do with my to-do list, I take it everywhere I go.

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And of course, I mean, taking it everywhere in my home because I can't go outside.

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So the thing is, is to keep your to-do list with you at all times.

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And when I mean that, I mean, like, have it by your bed when you're going to sleep, when you wake up, you know, bring it to the coffee table.

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I don't know, just bring it with you all the time.

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And the reason for that is because you need to find more space in your mind.

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And so the best way how to get more space in your mind and think about other things is to write it down.

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So for example, anything, task or assignment that you need to get done, writing it down will help you prioritize.

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But not just that, but it also allows you to feel like you can breathe a little bit more.

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This is a really good technique, especially if you're dealing with insomnia.

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And the reason for that is usually what happens is right when you're going to sleep, you know, you're kind of getting all cozy in bed.

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The next thing you know, your eyes are closing and you think you're about to go into your dreamland.

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But nope, what happens is, oh my God, I forgot to send that email.

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Or I forgot to do that task or that assignment.

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And oh my God, what should I write in that email?

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I have to write something in there.

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How would I word that?

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I need a word that.

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Or in the middle of the night, you wake up like, that is a fantastic idea.

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I need to do this idea.

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How am I going to do this idea?

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I wonder if this person would be good to help me on that idea.

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So the thing is, through my examples, I hope you've learned.

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Having a to-do list means when you have that come through your mind that you need to send that email or that idea comes to your mind in the middle of the night and now you can't sleep because you're thinking about it, write it down.

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And I don't mean your phone.

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Do not do it on your phone.

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And the reason for that is because what happens is every time we get on our phone to make a list or do anything on it, we start going on doing other things on our phone.

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And that's not going to help us when we need to go back to sleep.

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So the most important thing is have your to-do list with you all the time.

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Write down anything and then cross out anything that is not that you've completed.

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Now, yes, you can separate your work and your personal life on that to-do list.

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You can have two separate little books if you want.

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Whatever works best for you.

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Personally, for myself, I just keep them all on one sheet.

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And then I use a different color or I'll highlight for things that are personal versus work things.

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And this really helps me know all the projects that I've taken on.

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Now, the first time I started doing this assignment, it was about five pages long.

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So please know it's okay if you're feeling a little bit stressed out about writing this down because a part of you is like, Chloe, I can't do that.

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You have no idea.

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My anxiety is going to go through the roof because I'm doing so much and seeing all that is going to scare me and I'm not going to be able to sleep.

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So I'm someone who deals with anxiety.

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I'll be very honest with you.

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And yes, at first it was a little bit overwhelming.

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But then it also felt really relieving because suddenly I realized that I had more time to think about other things.

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Other things are more important than a task or an assignment and reminding myself over and over that I need to do those things.

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I had a time to actually think and have more self awareness of what was happening in my life.

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So I really do recommend writing it down.

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And yes, it could be overwhelming.

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But remember that thing I taught you at the very beginning, six breaths for a minute.

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That should help you too.

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If you're feeling a little overwhelmed, you know, do that.

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Close your eyes.

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Or one of the other things you can do is simply put it down, walk away, go for a walk in your home, listen to music, close the door, dance in your own room, do whatever.

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But the thing is, take a moment to pause and be like, okay.

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Now it's okay if it's overwhelming too, because it's also letting you know that you've taken on too much.

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And that was the one way that I knew that I knew I was doing a lot, but I didn't know I was doing a lot.

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And so that list really helped me readjust and start being able to see the trends that I'm doing that's putting myself at a burnout rate.

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So I really do recommend doing a to do list.

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It really does help you a lot.

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All right.

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Now, for managers, this is for you.

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If you're an employer or manager, we need to talk.

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I know that maybe some of you guys just don't like the idea of us working from home, even though it hasn't really been terrible in a sense.

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Like, didn't your employees do the work anyway?

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Yeah, they probably did.

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Because one of the things to note is trust is bilateral, meaning you need to trust your employees so your trust goes back and forth.

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And it's really important is to start building those relationships with your employees if you haven't.

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Because by having trust, you're going to be able to help each other out.

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Because let's be honest with each other.

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There's a lot going on in your life, too.

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And your employee is going through a lot, too.

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So it's really important is to set up these like one-on-ones weekly with each of your employees if you can.

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And you can make them 15 minutes or 30 minutes.

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But this is a good way to check in with each other and to dive into all the tasks and to work together to prioritize things in whatever order is more important.

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That really helps someone be able to be more organized and also know that there's some sort of collaboration.

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And collaboration is definitely key for good teamwork as well.

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So this helps with communication issues if necessary.

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So I do recommend doing that.

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Now, the other thing I'd also recommend is if you're an employer, I suggest you're doing a mental health day once a month and do it right around the weekend.

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And I know you're like, wait, but what does that mean?

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That means having everyone take a personal day.

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This could be a personal day of learning.

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This could be a personal day of catching up.

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It could be anything.

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But I do recommend doing something like this once a month because we're all going through a lot right now.

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And it might be really nice to show some appreciation by giving a day off on a Friday or a Monday.

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But the thing is, it's important to do that because people need breaks sometimes.

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And unfortunately, we don't get that many holidays.

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So it'd be nice for you to do that.

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Now, the other thing to note is if you're noticing people are not performing as their usual, meaning they're a little bit behind or they keep postponing things or they're not responding emails fast enough or their emotions are a little bit different than usually in the past,

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this is a good time to have those one-on-ones too.

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Don't let them go and be like they're being lazy.

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That's not what's going on.

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Chances are there's something going on in their personal life.

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So be a good boss and be there for them.

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And if possible, be open and transparent as well.

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If you're dealing with something horrible right now, you know, you don't have to talk about the specifics of it, but I do recommend being open with your team what's going on.

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It really does bring more respect.

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And respect goes both ways, right?

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So I just want you guys to know this is because the chances are you might be micromanaging or you're not understanding what is happening.

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And because of that, you might put your security team at risk or you might put your people at a moment where they're feeling burned out and getting even worse.

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And it's your job as a manager to want to see your employees or the people who report to you, whatever way you want to frame it.

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It's your job to want to have them go beyond you because that's when you know you're an amazing boss.

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So be a good manager and take the necessary steps to help your team.

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Now, the other thing to note about is I do recommend also putting one day per week for your team to have a no meetings day, meaning heads down kind of day where you do any catch up that you need to.

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And usually a Monday or Friday is usually the best for that.

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So I do recommend doing a weekly no meetings day.

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That really does help everyone on the team be able to play catch up.

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Okay, that's it on the manager side.

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Let's dive into more stuff.

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So how to bounce back.

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Let's go into this now.

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Now, one thing I want to point out is for some of you might be asking, what is the difference between burnout and stress?

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So stress is more like if I take a bubble bath or if I go to a spa for the day or I drink a glass of champagne or a couple glasses of wine, I'm going to feel pretty good.

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I'm going to feel pretty relaxed.

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And you know, I'll let the steam off and whatnot.

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Burnout is different.

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Burnout is I could do all of those things and it didn't do anything for me.

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That is the difference between burnout and stress.

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Stress is something that is, you know, a little bit more healthier in a sense that like if you do something here or there, it's going to make you feel a lot lighter.

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But burnout is no matter what you do, it doesn't seem like to be enough.

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So that's one thing to keep in perspective.

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Now, all those other things of preventative techniques, those are all work if you're already in burnout.

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But I'm going to talk about if you're already a burnout stage, what you need to do as soon as possible.

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Are you guys ready for this?

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Let's do this.

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Take time off.

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I know this like really short thing.

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But if you do one thing for yourself, if you're already burned out, take time off.

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And I don't mean, oh, a three day weekend.

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A three day weekend is not going to do anything for you.

411
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,520
If you're burned out, you need at least three work days off.

412
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,300
I recommend taking a whole week off.

413
00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:26,560
So, you know, from like weekend to weekend.

414
00:34:26,740 --> 00:34:31,360
And the reason for that is that's how you recharge your batteries is taking time off.

415
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,020
And I know it's really scary to take time off.

416
00:34:34,020 --> 00:34:42,520
I am one of those people that didn't take time off for two and a half years and I had to do it in July because I needed to take some time off.

417
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:49,040
But the thing that made me stress out the most was me taking time off means two things.

418
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:57,000
One, I have to worry about my colleagues, making sure that they're able to stay afloat while I'm away.

419
00:34:57,260 --> 00:35:06,000
The second thing is what am I going to return to besides all the dumpster fires and emails and so on.

420
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,000
So I'm going to give you some tips on this.

421
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:17,380
First thing first, I hate to break it to you, but if you're burned out, you're probably not doing really good at doing your job right now as much as you wish that you were.

422
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:25,880
When you're recharged, you're able to do way more type of work, you're more productive, you're more able to catch mistakes earlier on.

423
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,340
So I really do recommend don't have that thought come through.

424
00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:31,440
You need to take time off.

425
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,580
The second thing to note is taking time off.

426
00:35:34,580 --> 00:35:39,880
The other stress is returning to a huge flood of emails and being very far behind at work.

427
00:35:40,020 --> 00:35:42,340
So here are two suggestions I have for you.

428
00:35:42,340 --> 00:35:51,000
One is what your out of office message should probably be two days after you get back.

429
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:58,720
So for example, like if I'm coming back on the first, I'm going to set it for letting people know I'm back on the third.

430
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:09,580
So that gives me two days of secretly doing work without anyone knowing and not having to feel like I owe someone something right when I get back.

431
00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:10,760
That's one recommendation.

432
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:21,380
Second recommendation I have for you is a block on your calendar, at least one or two days for when you return for no meetings at all.

433
00:36:21,460 --> 00:36:33,140
And when you get back on your first day, email your team members and ask what is a huge priority for you to do right away and let them let you know.

434
00:36:33,140 --> 00:36:37,280
So then you know what to prioritize and it's not just through emails.

435
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:44,480
The other thing is to make sure that any messaging that happens while you're away, have it on one channel.

436
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:45,080
That's right.

437
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:51,620
You have Slack, you have other things and email, you have Signal, you have all these other great stuff.

438
00:36:51,620 --> 00:36:54,380
But in reality, you should just focus on one.

439
00:36:54,380 --> 00:37:02,460
So ask your teammates to on anything, any type of project, please just send it via email and to CCUNF.

440
00:37:02,460 --> 00:37:08,960
Don't rely on having to go through Slack and see all your messages because that's an additional stress.

441
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,340
So I recommend just telling everyone to do email.

442
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:19,320
Now the guilt about the team members, once again, you're not going to be a great team member if you're already burned out.

443
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,000
I hate to tell you that.

444
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,320
But it's the reality.

445
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,080
When you're burned out, chances are you're going to postpone things.

446
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,140
You're going to be not responding to emails anyway.

447
00:37:29,140 --> 00:37:31,440
So it's better to just take some time off.

448
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:38,160
Now, if you're wondering, how do I even approach my manager about taking time off for my mental health?

449
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,480
I recommend the following things.

450
00:37:40,580 --> 00:37:47,340
Hopefully you have a good relationship with your manager and you can be very transparent, set up a little one on one with him or her.

451
00:37:47,340 --> 00:37:56,500
But the thing you should also know is that if they don't do one on ones with you, set up a little 10 minute call with them.

452
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:58,140
And you can do FaceTime.

453
00:37:58,140 --> 00:37:59,100
I recommend that.

454
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:02,280
So then it's a person to person, face to face kind of thing.

455
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:11,400
And let them know like, I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed with personal life and work life and I need to take some time off.

456
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,040
These are the dates that I'm looking at.

457
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,320
What do you seem to work best for you?

458
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,660
Because I need to do this for myself.

459
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,520
And it's also a way to, you know, be there for my team.

460
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:30,780
Your manager will probably be not happy per se, but will be like, okay, you got it.

461
00:38:30,780 --> 00:38:46,200
Now, the thing to note is right after your meeting with them, make sure you send an email saying, thanks, whatever your boss's name, thanks for talking with me today and about my taking time off on the following dates.

462
00:38:46,780 --> 00:38:52,600
I appreciate you helping me in this moment.

463
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:53,600
That's all.

464
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,960
And the reason for that is you want to keep a paper trail, no matter what.

465
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:03,380
So if the person ever did decide to put it in your face and be like, you took time off.

466
00:39:03,380 --> 00:39:06,280
No one takes time off here or anything like that.

467
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,220
Or they just want to be a jerk.

468
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:11,560
Just have your paper trail because it'll protect you.

469
00:39:11,900 --> 00:39:14,900
And yeah, and you always have that record.

470
00:39:14,900 --> 00:39:18,980
Also send that email for it to your personal email too.

471
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:23,140
Keep two paper trails, personal email, work email.

472
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:25,840
So that's one thing I have to tell you.

473
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:33,240
And if you're a manager, please don't make them feel guilty because chances are they really do need to take that time off.

474
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:37,180
It's already probably hard for them to even ask for taking time off.

475
00:39:37,180 --> 00:39:38,260
We do get guilty.

476
00:39:38,260 --> 00:39:40,600
We do feel guilty when we take time off.

477
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,420
So please keep that in mind.

478
00:39:43,420 --> 00:39:45,400
Now remember three days, okay?

479
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,340
You cannot do a three-day weekend.

480
00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:48,800
Three business days.

481
00:39:50,060 --> 00:39:51,360
Learn to say no.

482
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,760
Remember that handy-dandy to-do list?

483
00:39:53,800 --> 00:40:00,460
Now this is probably when you first start it, you're like, oh my god, I've taken on way too much.

484
00:40:00,460 --> 00:40:02,220
It's time for you to start saying no.

485
00:40:02,220 --> 00:40:09,140
Because if you are a top performer, chances are they're going to ask you to do more work because you're so good at what you do.

486
00:40:09,140 --> 00:40:11,860
And they're like, oh, well, you can handle more of this.

487
00:40:11,860 --> 00:40:24,820
The other thing is you might find that not only if you're a top performer, but maybe if you're someone who's underrepresented, they see you wearing other hats on top of your job and will hand you over assignments.

488
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:30,200
And I'm sorry to say you're probably going to get burned out way faster than you ever imagined.

489
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:37,660
And the reality is, is that I had the hardest time ever to tell someone no, I cannot do that.

490
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:48,500
And sometimes it was really hard because the whole thing is like, well, I don't want to, I don't want to hold back my team, but this isn't part of my job, but I will be there.

491
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:50,860
I'll help catch, you know, everything.

492
00:40:50,860 --> 00:40:53,040
And I'm all about supporting team.

493
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:58,160
But when it comes to your mental health, if you're not doing well, you should not be doing those things.

494
00:40:58,160 --> 00:40:59,980
You have to draw a line.

495
00:40:59,980 --> 00:41:04,020
And yes, your boss might get angry about it.

496
00:41:04,020 --> 00:41:11,080
But, you know, like I said, you also need to remind your boss what your job is and do it in email.

497
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,520
Once again, keep a paper trail because you never know sometimes.

498
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,360
That is the one thing I have learned in my career.

499
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:19,620
Keep a paper trail.

500
00:41:19,620 --> 00:41:21,660
So make sure to say no.

501
00:41:21,660 --> 00:41:27,120
When you don't want to do it, or it's not part of your job, or you really can't handle it, say no.

502
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,000
And it's okay to say no.

503
00:41:29,180 --> 00:41:30,380
That's the one thing.

504
00:41:30,380 --> 00:41:31,660
You're never going to be perfect.

505
00:41:31,660 --> 00:41:33,700
You're never going to be able to please anyone.

506
00:41:33,820 --> 00:41:42,740
If anything, you'll realize more and more in life that you really can't please every single person in your life, and not everyone's going to like you.

507
00:41:42,740 --> 00:41:44,040
And that's okay.

508
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:46,580
That's okay.

509
00:41:49,620 --> 00:41:56,980
Another thing to know about burnout that you should know is that burnout happens when you're not investing in yourself.

510
00:41:57,020 --> 00:42:02,600
By not being able to say no, you're allowing someone to take advantage of you at times.

511
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:10,120
And so it's really important to know where you're, basically, where your lines are being crossed.

512
00:42:10,220 --> 00:42:13,340
If it's not part of your job, you shouldn't have to do those things.

513
00:42:13,340 --> 00:42:18,700
But yes, being there for your team members is important, but there's also moments where you can't do that.

514
00:42:19,620 --> 00:42:21,140
So number one, to invest in yourself.

515
00:42:21,140 --> 00:42:28,180
Also, the whole takeaway of the preventative techniques was also for you to know that you need to have a life outside of InfoSec, too.

516
00:42:28,180 --> 00:42:32,860
And I know that's really, really hard being in the hacker world and everything like that.

517
00:42:32,860 --> 00:42:37,940
And trust me, I can only get one day off a week, maybe, if I'm lucky.

518
00:42:37,940 --> 00:42:40,640
But it's really important to invest in yourself.

519
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,420
Spend some time on making you feel happy.

520
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,960
Because life is about being happy.

521
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:54,680
It's about doing the things that you want to do, but also to try to be there for others is important, too, as a human being.

522
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,840
But you can't be there for another human being when you can't even be there for yourself.

523
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,400
So it's really important for you to take the time to invest in yourself.

524
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,700
Journal, paint, write, read a book.

525
00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:08,740
Hey, did you know there's a hacker book club?

526
00:43:08,740 --> 00:43:11,440
I know it's InfoSec related, but if you want, you can come and join us.

527
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,180
But the thing is, is like invest in yourself.

528
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:19,400
Find the things that make you happy, make you like passionate.

529
00:43:19,540 --> 00:43:23,880
And if you're not getting that at work, then maybe it's time to look elsewhere.

530
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:32,200
And I know it's scary to look for a job in the middle of a pandemic, but the good news is that InfoSec, there's loads of jobs there for you.

531
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,540
You just have to look and know where to look.

532
00:43:34,540 --> 00:43:43,380
And then also there are people in the network and the community that are more than willing to help you try to find something or hopefully open a door for you.

533
00:43:43,380 --> 00:43:52,780
So it's really important is take the time to invest in yourself, make things better for you by taking time off and spending time with you and yourself.

534
00:43:53,180 --> 00:44:00,760
Now, I do want to say that when you take time off for burnout, remember that whole thing, taking a break from devices and social media?

535
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:13,360
I highly suggest you doing that too, because when you're taking time off, that means taking a break from your emails, from everything that's related to InfoSec and to be able to refocus on things that make you happy.

536
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:29,720
And if that means rebuilding relationships with friends and family, that means doing so because probably at some point you started seeing them as tasks that you just couldn't handle the more of the weight and responsibilities that you already have in your life.

537
00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:32,680
So it's important to never feel trapped in your life.

538
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:34,340
You shouldn't feel that way.

539
00:44:34,340 --> 00:44:37,760
If you do, it's time to reinvest in yourself.

540
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:51,960
And if you're wondering what are things that make you happy, what are things that you do outside of InfoSec, make a T-chart and write InfoSec in one column and non-InfoSec in another column and circle the things that you love and that you miss that you haven't done for a while.

541
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,860
That's a good way how to get started.

542
00:44:55,240 --> 00:45:00,280
But the main takeaways overwhelmingly are these following things.

543
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,200
So when you feel overwhelmed, do a device detox.

544
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:03,700
That's right.

545
00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:09,160
Take a day off from your devices and social media once a week.

546
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,380
If that means you can only do four hours, then it's just four hours.

547
00:45:12,380 --> 00:45:16,960
But the thing is, take as many hours as you can for that one day per week.

548
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,780
And I recommend everyone doing this right now, to be honest.

549
00:45:20,780 --> 00:45:23,440
When you feel overwhelmed, invest in yourself.

550
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,180
Like I said, you have to invest in yourself to know what's going on.

551
00:45:27,180 --> 00:45:33,660
You need to have that self-awareness to take care of you because you can't rely on other people to take care of you sometimes.

552
00:45:33,660 --> 00:45:36,900
So it's important for you to find the ways to invest in yourself.

553
00:45:36,900 --> 00:45:39,300
When you feel overwhelmed, ask for help.

554
00:45:39,460 --> 00:45:43,500
Talk to your manager, ask your friends, your family, your colleagues.

555
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:45,000
Ask for help.

556
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,920
You should never feel shy to ask for help.

557
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,340
This is the time where you need someone to be there for you.

558
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:58,560
And there are plenty of organizations out there and people in the community that are willing to be there for you.

559
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,320
You just have to ask.

560
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,560
When you feel overwhelmed, write it down.

561
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:03,660
That's right.

562
00:46:03,660 --> 00:46:05,200
Journal, to-do list.

563
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:19,020
It's going to help free out your mind and so you're better to understand what you've signed up for, when enough is enough for you, what's the trends that are happening in your mind, and so on.

564
00:46:19,020 --> 00:46:21,320
It's very important for you to know those things.

565
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,260
When you feel overwhelmed, take a break.

566
00:46:23,260 --> 00:46:23,840
That's right.

567
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,600
Take one day per week to escape from InfoSec.

568
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:33,760
And I recommend doing it on the same day as your device detox, to be honest, because then you get two things done in one day.

569
00:46:34,460 --> 00:46:41,700
But the thing is, if you're already burned out, make sure that you do more than three business days, remember.

570
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:44,240
So weekend, three business days.

571
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,660
So it gives you five days to recharge your batteries.

572
00:46:46,660 --> 00:46:53,080
And to be able to charge batteries, I want to reiterate, that means taking time away from devices and social media.

573
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,200
When you feel overwhelmed, put yourself first.

574
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:57,860
It is very important.

575
00:46:57,940 --> 00:47:01,760
You have to take care of yourself before you can take care of another person.

576
00:47:02,020 --> 00:47:04,940
It's, it's just, just do it.

577
00:47:04,940 --> 00:47:15,240
That is the one lesson that I've learned in life is that if you want to do a lot in the world, you need to also make sure that you're mentally okay to be able to do so.

578
00:47:15,240 --> 00:47:26,440
Because you'll be able to put in more energy, more of an effect in whatever you want to do to help others by being balanced yourself.

579
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:27,940
It's very, very important.

580
00:47:27,940 --> 00:47:31,620
Burnout is all about the art of balance.

581
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:33,960
When you feel overwhelmed, know you're not alone.

582
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,540
Please know you are never alone in InfoSec.

583
00:47:36,540 --> 00:47:39,920
If you feel like that, there are so many organizations.

584
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,940
DM me, I will refer you to people.

585
00:47:41,940 --> 00:47:43,920
But the thing is, never feel alone.

586
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:45,420
No one should feel alone right now.

587
00:47:45,420 --> 00:47:48,060
And I know it's a crazy world and everything.

588
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:52,400
But I send you virtual hugs or high fives, whatever you prefer.

589
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,980
But please know you're never alone here.

590
00:47:54,980 --> 00:47:56,920
The community has you.

591
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,980
I mean, if it wasn't for the community, I wouldn't be where I am today.

592
00:48:00,980 --> 00:48:07,380
And I've definitely had moments before I entered the InfoSec community where I felt isolated and alone.

593
00:48:07,380 --> 00:48:09,900
And I just want to let you know that you're not.

594
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:21,780
And, you know, there's always people out there that are dealing with the same things as you are, or have gone through it and are able to be there for you and give advice and suggestions to help you out.

595
00:48:21,780 --> 00:48:25,720
So, like I said, that goes in hand with ask for help.

596
00:48:26,980 --> 00:48:35,000
But most importantly, the main takeaway to know whether or not you are burned out, always ask the question, am I balancing my work and personal life?

597
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:39,120
If not, now you know the steps to fix it.

598
00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:43,040
And you got this.

599
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,100
I believe in you.

600
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:45,400
I kid you not.

601
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,780
I had a burnout and I felt way better after taking time off.

602
00:48:50,980 --> 00:48:53,960
And I got to recharge my batteries and able to do everything.

603
00:48:53,960 --> 00:49:01,540
But it also made me realize what are the things I need to prioritize more in my life and to have a better sense of what makes me happy too.

604
00:49:01,540 --> 00:49:17,640
And having that balance of infosec life and personal life, it's hard to do in the hacker community, but it's so important for you to do that because that's the only way that we're going to grow as individuals and to be there and present for the world that we're in.

605
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:24,480
And I just want to say thank you again to AppSec Village for having me and thank you all for existing.

606
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,720
And I really hope that you all are staying safe.

607
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:31,720
If you have any questions or anything like that, feel free to message me.

608
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:33,300
Also, my DMs are open.

609
00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:40,340
So if you do feel like you want to have more of a private one-on-one without anyone knowing, feel free to message as well.

610
00:49:40,340 --> 00:49:44,560
I'm here for you and I hope to provide as much guidance as possible.

611
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:49,980
But in the meantime, I just want to say thank you again and please stay safe.

612
00:49:49,980 --> 00:49:53,480
And I hope you enjoy the rest of your DEF CON experience this year.

613
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,300
And I really hope that I get to see everyone next year in person.

614
00:49:57,380 --> 00:49:59,940
So let's just all hope for that as well.

615
00:49:59,940 --> 00:50:02,000
In the meantime, thank you guys for existing.

616
00:50:02,100 --> 00:50:08,300
And like I said, never hesitate to ask a question or to seek for help.

617
00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:10,980
There's always people there that want to help you.

618
00:50:10,980 --> 00:50:12,960
All right, and that is all.

619
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:14,200
Thank you guys.

620
00:50:14,500 --> 00:50:15,720
I'll see you later.