WEBVTT 00:12.740 --> 00:14.360 Hello and welcome back. 00:14.520 --> 00:21.780 I hope you're looking forward to another fantastic talk here at the AppSec Village for DEF CON 29 in safe mode. 00:23.320 --> 00:26.240 It's important to remember you're 3-2-1. 00:26.240 --> 00:35.380 Even though we are separate from each other and socially distanced, your cohabitants will really appreciate that one in there. 00:35.580 --> 00:37.320 And just take care of yourselves. 00:37.320 --> 00:41.180 Get some good sleep, get some good food, make sure you take a shower. 00:41.180 --> 00:48.000 For our next talk, we've got David Waldrop talking about the DevOps and Agile Security Toolkit. 00:48.000 --> 00:54.860 After 25 years in the application development, David moved to information security just over seven years ago. 00:54.860 --> 00:58.140 His passion is helping developers write secure code. 00:58.140 --> 01:05.000 He's currently an information security advisor supporting the application development community at his employer. 01:05.000 --> 01:08.700 Let's put our hands together and welcome David Waldrop. 01:10.000 --> 01:12.760 Hi and welcome to the AppSec Village. 01:12.760 --> 01:17.100 I hope you're having a great DEF CON 2020, albeit in safe mode. 01:17.240 --> 01:24.220 My name is Dave and for the next 30-45 minutes, we're going to talk about the DevOps and Agile Security Toolkit. 01:24.220 --> 01:27.980 Now before I get started, I have to make the standard disclaimers. 01:27.980 --> 01:34.800 First, this presentation and any comments that I make are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my employer. 01:35.280 --> 01:37.800 Secondly, I will mention a few example products. 01:37.800 --> 01:40.120 Some are commercial, some are open source. 01:40.400 --> 01:43.100 These are not necessarily meant as recommendations. 01:43.260 --> 01:47.500 They are mentioned to serve as a starting point for your own investigation and review. 01:47.500 --> 01:51.620 These are things that I've run across in my journey, so take that as it is. 01:52.200 --> 02:00.180 Let's start with the two terms that are on everybody's buzzword bingo sheet these days, DevOps and Agile. 02:00.180 --> 02:07.780 We need to get definitions in place for the duration of this talk, so we have an idea that we're all dealing with the same playing field. 02:07.960 --> 02:09.040 Agile. 02:09.040 --> 02:13.540 Agile focuses on continuous iterative development and testing. 02:13.540 --> 02:19.820 Software is developed in smaller increments and then is integrated for final testing and delivery. 02:19.820 --> 02:25.540 Scrum, Kanban, and XP Extreme Programming are examples of Agile approaches. 02:25.700 --> 02:31.000 On the other hand, DevOps focuses on the collaboration between app dev and operations. 02:31.000 --> 02:37.340 The focus is on deploying code to production in a fast manner, usually automated. 02:38.920 --> 02:43.720 So you can see from the definitions that these are two separate concepts. 02:43.720 --> 02:47.760 However, many organizations tend to combine them into one initiative. 02:47.820 --> 02:54.080 Very, very rarely do you find a shop doing DevOps and not doing Agile, or vice versa. 02:54.860 --> 03:02.380 So no matter whether they start with DevOps or they start with Agile, the one piece that's usually late to the party is security. 03:02.520 --> 03:15.740 But no matter how late security is invited to the party, or whether we have to crash the party ourselves, we usually can still bring valuable resources without slowing things down, or at least without slowing them down a lot. 03:15.740 --> 03:19.620 And that's what we're going to talk about through the rest of this discussion. 03:19.620 --> 03:25.740 So for the past few years, I've worked with several different Agile and DevOps teams. 03:25.980 --> 03:38.400 My integration with this started as a pilot program where I was the information security representative that was assigned to help introduce Agile to our organization. 03:38.400 --> 03:46.100 More recently, I've implemented the information security integration with the Agile and DevOps teams across our organization. 03:46.500 --> 03:52.400 During this session, I'm going to share with you some things that really worked well and some things that just didn't seem to work at all. 03:52.460 --> 03:57.860 So hopefully you can take something away from this and apply it to your own organization. 03:59.760 --> 04:04.540 This particular slide will give you the map of what we're going to talk about for the rest of this discussion. 04:04.600 --> 04:06.840 We're going to talk about Agile staffing. 04:06.840 --> 04:09.600 We're going to talk about the eight simple questions. 04:09.600 --> 04:16.720 We're going to talk about the security champions program, and then go into developer training, which is my favorite part of my job. 04:17.460 --> 04:20.200 Security in the software development life cycle. 04:20.340 --> 04:23.240 And then we're going to hit the hat trick of securing your code. 04:23.240 --> 04:27.560 Static code analysis, dynamic code analysis, and open source analysis. 04:27.620 --> 04:31.660 And then finally, we're going to wrap things up by automating the heck out of it. 04:32.240 --> 04:34.680 So let's start with Agile staffing. 04:35.660 --> 04:38.900 Sherman set the way back machine from when I started with Agile. 04:39.260 --> 04:44.820 One information security person was assigned to one Agile team. 04:44.820 --> 04:55.360 That security person would be integrated into that team and attend every ceremony, every meeting, everything, every day. 04:56.000 --> 04:57.520 That didn't work. 04:57.520 --> 04:59.740 There are a couple of reasons I think that that didn't work. 04:59.740 --> 05:02.700 First of all, Agile teams tend to multiply. 05:02.880 --> 05:10.800 You can go from a proof of concept with one team to having close to 30 teams in less than two years. 05:10.820 --> 05:19.340 Most organizations do not have the information security bandwidth to support that type of staffing model. 05:19.660 --> 05:26.500 In addition, the scrum masters tend to treat every member on the team as though they can perform all tasks. 05:26.500 --> 05:29.700 And when you're dealing with a team of all developers, that makes perfect sense. 05:29.700 --> 05:43.540 This model tends to fall apart though when you put information security, QA, middleware, any other infrastructure or shared services team as a part of the Agile team. 05:43.560 --> 05:52.300 What happens is in the Agile process, their hours count against your available development hours. 05:52.540 --> 06:02.240 But the infrastructure people, the information security people do not have the skills or the capabilities to do some of the development. 06:02.240 --> 06:05.360 So you kind of see that there's a mismatch. 06:05.360 --> 06:07.660 You're given hours, but you're not allowed to use them. 06:07.660 --> 06:11.300 So it caused a lot of problems for some of our scrum masters early on. 06:11.300 --> 06:13.680 Again, we realized this was not the way to do it. 06:13.680 --> 06:20.620 So I ended up coming up with a two-tiered approach for trying to integrate information security into the Agile team. 06:21.180 --> 06:35.520 First, at a high level, at the enterprise level, we will have an architect, an information security architect, and they will inject into those high-level projects and basically set up guardrails and guidelines. 06:35.520 --> 06:48.500 So as projects are being devised at the visionary level, they can jump in and try to help guide them into making more secure decisions at that high level. 06:48.580 --> 06:56.180 Now when you get down into the weeds though, each Agile team does need to have somebody they can rely upon for information security. 06:56.700 --> 07:06.740 And so what we ended up doing is we created named resources within the information security team that are assigned to Agile teams. 07:06.740 --> 07:08.920 Now it's not like the previous model. 07:08.920 --> 07:12.960 You're not assigned, you're not sitting with them, you're not assigned to go to every meeting. 07:12.960 --> 07:27.120 We're going to talk about how we scaled that back, but we ended up finding a way where based on where information security can add the most value, we attend those ceremonies and only those ceremonies. 07:27.320 --> 07:35.040 So at the end of the day, each information security representative can support between six and eight different Agile teams. 07:35.040 --> 07:37.680 That is a model that is certainly sustainable. 07:38.460 --> 07:40.200 So what is a little different? 07:40.200 --> 07:48.880 Well first of all, we make sure that every Agile team has a named resource that is responsible for information security for them. 07:48.880 --> 07:50.840 So this gives them a named contact. 07:50.840 --> 07:57.720 If they ever need something, they know exactly who to call and where to start that quest. 07:58.320 --> 08:04.420 Secondly, we attend, or the Agile reps attend, the backlog refinement sessions. 08:04.420 --> 08:12.540 These are meetings that happen once every two weeks before the next sprint, and it defines what they're going to work on in that next sprint. 08:12.540 --> 08:23.100 It's a perfect opportunity to jump in and say, you're planning this work, we need to think about blah blah blah from an information security standpoint. 08:23.100 --> 08:27.480 We can get in just ahead of when development starts. 08:27.480 --> 08:33.180 It's a perfect time to bring up security issues, make recommendations, and answer questions. 08:33.180 --> 08:46.320 And then finally, we attend the quarterly planning increment meetings where the vision is cast for the next quarter, and we can make sure that we're on their radar for things that we think we need to be a part of. 08:47.540 --> 08:50.400 So this is kind of a high-level diagram. 08:50.400 --> 08:54.400 The purple arrow at the top is the information security architect. 08:54.560 --> 09:01.600 That particular person, as you can see from the diagram, sets guardrails for enterprise planning projects. 09:01.640 --> 09:10.420 All of the red arrows are the different places where our individual security representatives can or may inject into the Agile teams. 09:10.420 --> 09:16.360 We don't inject in all those places, but there are places where we can, and we give them that option to call us if they're needed. 09:18.280 --> 09:22.480 So let's move on to what I like to call the eight simple questions. 09:22.600 --> 09:32.200 This particular concept came up as a result of assigning our Agile reps to their teams. 09:32.800 --> 09:38.620 We found that the leadership within the Agile teams really wasn't sure when to call us. 09:38.840 --> 09:52.360 And since we weren't sitting there in every meeting, there was a possibility that something could come up that might fall off the radar, that we might not get contacted for, that they may not even think is important. 09:52.360 --> 10:01.200 So we decided that we need to give clear guidelines to the scrum masters and product owners as to when they should include information security. 10:01.520 --> 10:05.220 That's how I created the eight simple questions. 10:05.560 --> 10:18.540 So basically these eight questions are a guideline for that leadership team, and if they answer yes to any of them, they need to make sure to include their information security representative in those discussions. 10:19.680 --> 10:23.000 These are the questions as I currently have them. 10:23.000 --> 10:26.680 We're going to talk about that in just a bit because they change over time. 10:26.680 --> 10:28.920 These are not one and done kind of things. 10:29.200 --> 10:31.260 Am I dealing with any sensitive information? 10:31.260 --> 10:35.800 Now information that is sensitive, it's going to mean something different for each one of our organizations. 10:35.800 --> 10:47.340 If you're working in healthcare, if you're working with banking information, if you're working with retail with PCI information, you will be able to define what sensitive information means for your organization. 10:47.560 --> 10:50.900 Am I sending or receiving data outside of the company? 10:51.080 --> 10:53.200 Is there a new vendor involved? 10:53.200 --> 10:58.060 Am I going to introduce new software systems or libraries, even open source? 10:58.060 --> 11:00.400 And remember open source because we're going to talk about that. 11:00.400 --> 11:01.980 It's a unique challenge. 11:02.000 --> 11:07.480 Do I need access to secrets such as passwords, keys, or certificates? 11:07.620 --> 11:09.900 Will I need the ability to use single sign-on? 11:09.900 --> 11:11.960 Am I going to leverage the cloud? 11:11.960 --> 11:14.480 Will I need updated access roles? 11:14.800 --> 11:25.100 So these eight questions are what we are currently using as a guideline for the interaction between the Agile team and their information security representative. 11:25.480 --> 11:29.560 As I mentioned, the exact questions are going to differ on your organization. 11:29.640 --> 11:33.380 The questions themselves will actually change over time. 11:33.380 --> 11:40.400 I started I think with seven questions and then we had several issues come up with access roles and who to ask and blah blah blah. 11:40.400 --> 11:42.420 So we added a question for that too. 11:42.840 --> 11:48.320 So don't be afraid to take a stab at it and massage it and change it. 11:49.000 --> 11:56.660 That's the thing about Agile and DevOps, it's changing all the time and we as information security people need to be able to change our stuff as well. 11:56.860 --> 11:58.240 So the basic idea is this. 11:58.240 --> 12:09.200 Create a list of questions, usually 10 or less, something that's going to fit easily on a PowerPoint slide or a single piece of paper so they can take it to meetings with them. 12:09.480 --> 12:13.400 Give that to the Agile team leadership and they have a guideline. 12:13.400 --> 12:18.680 They now have a concrete way of knowing when they need to work with information security. 12:19.240 --> 12:29.980 So we found another advantage to this approach as we onboarded additional information security people to become representatives for the Agile teams. 12:29.980 --> 12:36.400 A lot of these folks were pretty new to the organization and they didn't really know when they needed to inject themselves into their teams. 12:36.400 --> 12:40.400 They didn't know what they needed to listen for in the backlog refinement sessions. 12:40.400 --> 12:44.460 So we used these 8 simple questions on our own people. 12:44.460 --> 12:51.240 It gave them guidelines and hints of what to listen for when they're working with their Agile teams. 12:51.240 --> 12:56.420 So this kind of became a win-win on both sides of the coin. 12:57.480 --> 13:01.420 So I think this was a great tool that we've been able to use. 13:02.840 --> 13:07.040 Another tool that I honestly have to thank Jim Manico for. 13:07.040 --> 13:08.580 Jim, if you're out there, thank you for this. 13:08.580 --> 13:13.700 This was a recommendation he made to me after one of our training sessions. 13:13.760 --> 13:16.040 And that is the Security Champions Program. 13:17.080 --> 13:20.860 A Security Champions Program is a team of application developers. 13:20.860 --> 13:23.600 We get one from each Agile team. 13:23.780 --> 13:31.460 And these developers have expressed an interest in information security, or secure coding, or just security in general. 13:31.460 --> 13:35.460 This is a voluntary program. 13:35.700 --> 13:41.940 The members of the team volunteer to come to the Security Champions Program. 13:42.040 --> 13:44.060 And we typically meet quarterly. 13:44.060 --> 13:47.760 I provide them lunch when we're in the office, thanks 2020. 13:47.760 --> 13:51.860 I look forward to getting back to the office and having lunch with these guys and gals. 13:51.860 --> 13:53.200 They're a great team. 13:53.440 --> 13:55.680 So the team has this following charter. 13:55.680 --> 13:59.980 We assist the Agile teams in terms of application security. 14:00.000 --> 14:06.920 We serve as a communication conduit between the Agile teams and information security. 14:06.920 --> 14:12.140 And then we meet quarterly to share experiences, we ask questions, we share knowledge. 14:12.180 --> 14:14.720 It has had some incredible benefits. 14:14.720 --> 14:20.800 First of all, security has a relationship with at least one person on every Agile team. 14:20.840 --> 14:22.480 I'm not saying we have them all. 14:22.480 --> 14:29.460 What I am saying is, sometimes we hear about things long before it percolates through the management chain. 14:29.460 --> 14:34.020 I might get a phone call about, hey, we're thinking about using this open source library. 14:34.020 --> 14:35.020 Is that cool? 14:35.020 --> 14:36.440 We take a quick look at it. 14:36.440 --> 14:37.280 We approve it. 14:37.280 --> 14:42.260 By the time the formal approver gets into my hands, we've already done it and they're coding. 14:42.260 --> 14:45.940 So it gives us a great communication conduit. 14:46.380 --> 14:49.580 And that helps me make things faster. 14:50.380 --> 14:52.500 I may have not mentioned this before. 14:52.500 --> 14:53.700 Hopefully, I have. 14:53.780 --> 14:55.480 Relationship is key. 14:55.480 --> 15:00.120 You're going to hear about relationship throughout this entire discussion. 15:01.160 --> 15:04.020 We build relationships with those Agile teams. 15:04.020 --> 15:06.940 It starts with having an assigned rep. 15:07.660 --> 15:14.160 It moves into a different relationship level when we have a security security champions team. 15:14.380 --> 15:18.660 Secure coding training takes it to yet another level. 15:18.660 --> 15:23.040 And you'll see why in just a few minutes as we talk about the developer training. 15:23.040 --> 15:24.820 But it's about building relationships. 15:24.820 --> 15:29.500 It's about having fun while we're doing the right thing for our organizations. 15:30.000 --> 15:33.160 So, so far, the team has done a lot of really cool things. 15:33.160 --> 15:38.640 We've reviewed vendors and products, both on the development side and on the information security side. 15:38.640 --> 15:48.400 We've selected our developer training programs for the last two years based on the input from the security champions team members. 15:48.660 --> 15:51.160 We've done a bunch of POCs together. 15:51.160 --> 15:52.820 We've cross consulted. 15:52.820 --> 16:09.280 Now, this was kind of an unexpected benefit is where if I had a team that was very well versed in one technology and they mentioned that in a security champions lunch, another team might reach out and say, hey, we're about to do that. 16:09.280 --> 16:10.840 Can we sit down and talk? 16:10.840 --> 16:19.040 So, it actually starts to cross pollinate some security knowledge and some technical knowledge between different application teams. 16:19.160 --> 16:25.140 And then finally, it served as a candidate group for application security openings within the InfoSec team. 16:26.160 --> 16:28.560 The software development life cycle. 16:28.560 --> 16:37.920 So, as we started to roll out security, a lot of people have asked us, how does this fit into our SDLC? 16:38.040 --> 16:46.060 So, I ended up creating a plan that maps information security phases to the software development life cycle as it currently exists. 16:46.060 --> 16:56.780 It is not a perfect fit, but I think it is a good representation of how information security can bring value to each step of the SDLC. 16:57.320 --> 17:01.920 So, this is what I like to call my dark side of the moon diagram. 17:01.920 --> 17:05.860 Those of you old enough to remember, probably recognize the album cover. 17:05.880 --> 17:19.360 So, if you take a look on the right, we have the software development life cycle from concept into design, up into coding testing and QA, QA and deployment, and then post-deployment at the very top. 17:19.360 --> 17:33.040 Now, if you look on the left side, you'll see that it matches up pretty closely with security knowledge, security design, secure coding techniques, security testing, and then security response. 17:33.560 --> 17:48.840 The each individual layer of the pyramid, I think, are deliverables that security can bring that help take that concept on the left and apply it to the SDLC phase on the right. 17:48.840 --> 17:50.820 And we're going to walk through those real quick. 17:50.820 --> 17:53.480 Training is the base of the pyramid. 17:53.480 --> 17:57.500 I think training is foundational to everything above it. 17:57.500 --> 18:04.620 If you don't have a solid foundation of training for your application developers, everything else is at risk. 18:04.680 --> 18:12.920 So, this particular approach, we're going to talk about in depth, again, because it's my favorite part of what I do. 18:12.920 --> 18:21.520 It includes things like lunch and learns, outside speakers, conferences like you're attending right now, video training, and things like that. 18:21.680 --> 18:24.260 The next level up is threat modeling. 18:24.260 --> 18:36.920 Threat modeling, the application team, and InfoSec, we sit together, we work together to examine the application design, the system flows, whatever they can bring to us that they have available in that design phase. 18:37.040 --> 18:45.440 We look, we try to work together and identify potential vulnerable vectors and try to figure out a way that we can mitigate them. 18:46.600 --> 18:51.620 Now, threat modeling, there are books upon books written about threat modeling. 18:51.680 --> 18:56.480 And there are people in my organization on my InfoSec team that are much better at it than I am. 18:56.480 --> 19:03.180 And they can actually create incredible documents and spend hours and days and days and days doing this. 19:03.180 --> 19:04.900 I think you need to start out small. 19:04.900 --> 19:06.900 I think it's about baby steps at first. 19:06.900 --> 19:08.620 Start with a discussion. 19:08.620 --> 19:14.860 This can be a one or two hour discussion where you have those deliverables from the design phase, and you whiteboard them. 19:14.860 --> 19:19.200 And you come out of there with to-dos, or questions, or things to research. 19:19.200 --> 19:27.820 It doesn't have to be this big, heavyweight, overbearing approach to threat modeling at first. 19:27.820 --> 19:29.520 It needs to be a conversation. 19:29.520 --> 19:31.240 That gets back to relationships. 19:31.240 --> 19:36.020 You need to have those relationships in place so you can have those conversations. 19:36.560 --> 19:39.440 The third level up is static code analysis. 19:39.440 --> 19:43.780 We're going to talk about this in much more detail later. 19:43.780 --> 19:49.260 But most tools are designed to identify potential vulnerabilities within the code. 19:49.260 --> 19:55.840 Now, static code analysis actually looks at the code and looks for patterns within the code without running it. 19:55.840 --> 19:58.960 Now, we're going to see a little bit later why that's important. 19:59.540 --> 20:01.340 I think I went the wrong way. 20:02.260 --> 20:03.520 There we go. 20:03.620 --> 20:06.460 Dynamic code analysis is the next layer up. 20:06.460 --> 20:10.300 And that is very similar to the previous layer, which was static code analysis. 20:10.300 --> 20:16.400 But instead of just looking at the code, the code is actually executed and tested for vulnerabilities. 20:16.640 --> 20:23.660 So, like I said, these two pieces are very, very similar. 20:23.660 --> 20:25.700 One is looking at patterns with the code. 20:25.700 --> 20:30.000 The other is actually exercising the code and looking for issues. 20:30.000 --> 20:31.640 The next is pin testing. 20:31.640 --> 20:38.040 Pin testing can be performed by your internal team if you have the skills and resources, or you can use an external firm. 20:38.440 --> 20:43.960 This is usually a greater scope than dynamic testing. 20:44.520 --> 20:53.520 It will actually look at things not just in your application, but system-wide for vulnerabilities and attack vectors. 20:53.520 --> 20:55.320 And usually there's a person involved. 20:55.320 --> 20:57.340 It's not just an automated exercise. 20:57.340 --> 21:02.860 We're going to see a little bit more when we talk about dynamic testing, the difference between that and pin testing. 21:02.860 --> 21:13.880 And then finally, when the code is in deployment, you need to have a vulnerability management process that you can classify, assign, and track identified issues. 21:15.700 --> 21:26.680 Right now, InfoSec meets regularly with a representative from each application team to review these and to make sure that they're working and they're on track. 21:26.680 --> 21:31.500 Again, those relationships are absolutely key to making this work. 21:31.980 --> 21:39.960 So now we are getting to what I consider my absolute favorite part of my job, and that is developer training. 21:40.140 --> 21:50.540 If you remember back to that pyramid we just looked at, this is the foundation for everything that InfoSec does with AppDev. 21:50.540 --> 22:06.780 When I came in to Information Security about seven years ago, I started a developer training program because I realized that the developers really are your last best hope for defense when it comes to application security. 22:06.780 --> 22:16.340 If your application is written correctly, then everything you throw in front of it, application firewalls, everything like that, that's gravy. 22:16.340 --> 22:23.460 That's nice, but you've got a really tight application, and that's where real security takes place. 22:23.460 --> 22:32.700 The problem is, I was a developer for roughly 25 years before coming to Information Security, and nobody taught this stuff. 22:32.700 --> 22:39.920 This is stuff you learned on your own if you had an interest in it, and it wasn't universally available to all developers. 22:40.120 --> 22:43.020 So I started small. 22:43.020 --> 22:45.240 I started with Lunch and Learns. 22:45.600 --> 22:53.060 It was really something that, hey, I think this is important, let's try it, let's see if it works. 22:53.060 --> 22:54.240 And it really did. 22:54.240 --> 22:57.220 We would end up having Lunch and Learns about every other month. 22:58.060 --> 23:00.240 I would create a class on a specific topic. 23:00.240 --> 23:03.060 My first one was cross-site scripting, a lot of fun. 23:03.320 --> 23:10.500 It's neat when you can show people cross-site scripting examples, even if you just run WebGoat or something like that. 23:10.580 --> 23:11.760 They get excited. 23:11.760 --> 23:15.400 They kind of dig it, and they start trying it on their own stuff. 23:16.000 --> 23:22.840 The content usually lasts about 40 or 45 minutes, a lot like this session, and then we leave 10 to 15 minutes for open discussion and questions. 23:22.880 --> 23:25.440 Now the key here is, make it fun. 23:25.440 --> 23:28.160 It has to be fun. 23:28.360 --> 23:35.340 I do things like, I'll go out and I'll buy cookies or some kind of treat, so we can all sit around, eat something together. 23:35.580 --> 23:39.500 There's usually some kind of door prize or door prizes, and they don't have to be expensive. 23:39.500 --> 23:43.720 You can just go down to five below and get a couple of wireless Bluetooth speakers. 23:44.200 --> 23:45.080 And people dig it. 23:45.080 --> 23:46.340 It's a lot of fun. 23:46.700 --> 23:52.600 Again, making it fun is absolutely key to a successful Lunch and Learn program. 23:53.180 --> 23:58.440 So once we got that up and running, I decided we needed to take this up a notch. 23:58.920 --> 24:11.860 There is a level of training that I couldn't provide that I think our developers really, and in order to do that, I knew that I had to reach out to industry experts. 24:12.940 --> 24:26.660 And what we ended up doing is, we were able to get commitment from management, both on the IT development side and on InfoSec side, that we could do one or two days where most, if not all, of the developers will attend a training event. 24:26.780 --> 24:27.980 Now here's a hint. 24:27.980 --> 24:34.280 If you are going to try this and you're doing Agile, put it in your Innovation Sprint. 24:34.280 --> 24:52.380 If you put it in the Innovation Sprint, which is usually the last sprint of the quarter, and the developers have a little more leeway of what they work on during the Innovation Sprint, you'll very likely get more participation than if you step on a middle of a sprint where there's actual deliverables due. 24:52.380 --> 24:53.700 So keep that in mind. 24:53.800 --> 24:56.060 I was really, really lucky. 24:56.060 --> 25:06.140 My very first interaction with this program, I was able to secure Jim Manico, and he came in and made an incredible impression on our development teams. 25:06.140 --> 25:08.260 Jim's been back, I think, three times now. 25:08.260 --> 25:09.600 Always a pleasure. 25:10.420 --> 25:12.020 Rich Mogul's been by twice. 25:12.020 --> 25:14.580 We've had a recent one with Ron Paris. 25:14.580 --> 25:14.920 Dr. 25:15.140 --> 25:19.880 Philippe Des Riques, phenomenal instructor. 25:20.120 --> 25:30.240 I just took his OAuth class, so if you're looking for OAuth, looking forward to that. 25:30.240 --> 25:35.840 The reason I actually want to call these gentlemen out by name is I think it's important to be grateful. 25:35.840 --> 25:41.140 I am very grateful for everything they've done for me and my development teams. 25:41.340 --> 25:47.560 And it's important to be grateful to those who help you along the way on this journey, because none of us make it alone. 25:47.560 --> 25:49.520 So gentlemen, thank you very much. 25:49.520 --> 25:58.860 If you see this or hear it later, your training, your mentorship has meant a lot to me and my development teams. 25:59.280 --> 26:08.920 So one cool aside is, I mentioned this earlier, the Security Champions team has been involved in the selection of the instructor for the last two years. 26:08.920 --> 26:14.140 This gives your application development teams a voice in the training. 26:14.160 --> 26:18.140 And we've seen that participation has actually increased. 26:18.140 --> 26:35.100 We had great participation before then, but when the developers actually had a voice in picking who's coming in and what they're going to talk about, we're finding that it's much more applicable to what's on their roadmap. 26:35.140 --> 26:38.900 It's much more applicable to the skills they're hoping to get. 26:39.140 --> 26:43.840 And participation goes beyond what I could have ever hoped for. 26:43.840 --> 26:52.940 So again, we're starting to see some of these initiatives are starting to weave together and starting to build kind of a program. 26:52.940 --> 26:53.940 It's kind of cool. 26:54.420 --> 26:59.240 So this next one, I really wish I was doing this right now. 26:59.420 --> 27:01.360 Take a developer to DEF CON. 27:01.360 --> 27:08.480 We had management agree to provide scholarships to developers that were selected by the information security team. 27:08.700 --> 27:15.020 So we would give them the money to buy their badges so they wouldn't have to go and get money out of their own bank account. 27:16.400 --> 27:22.380 So each year I've been able to bring up to three developers to DEF CON. 27:22.400 --> 27:24.360 That's been awesome. 27:24.360 --> 27:28.700 It has been just a phenomenal experience. 27:28.780 --> 27:34.700 They've gained a ton of knowledge and a ton of awareness by DEF CON. 27:35.320 --> 27:43.760 One of the things that I found really interesting was I really advised them not to restrict their sessions to things that they think will apply to their job. 27:43.780 --> 27:50.240 I did that my very first DEF CON and I wasn't really sure I was going to come back, to be honest with you. 27:50.600 --> 27:55.000 The next year, one of my co-workers strongly encouraged me to go. 27:55.000 --> 27:56.020 Thank you, Barry. 27:57.740 --> 28:04.400 And encouraged me to go and find a few fun things that just had nothing to do with my immediate job. 28:04.400 --> 28:14.780 The interesting thing is they ended up having more to do with the things that were coming down the road in my job than I ever could have imagined. 28:14.780 --> 28:21.960 So I fully encourage each one of these developers that I bring to DEF CON to experience the full DEF CON experience. 28:21.960 --> 28:23.480 Go to all the sessions. 28:23.480 --> 28:26.880 Try some of the capture the flags. 28:26.880 --> 28:28.720 Try whatever you want. 28:28.720 --> 28:37.640 Have a good time because it's really important for them to be immersed in the DEF CON experience. 28:37.720 --> 28:41.380 So like I said before, they come back with a changed perspective. 28:41.380 --> 28:48.800 It's a lot like that scene in The Matrix where that thing crawls out of Neo and he goes, my god, that thing is real? 28:49.100 --> 29:00.360 They understand now that the security is not just something that we're teaching and preaching about within InfoSec, that this stuff has real world application. 29:00.480 --> 29:07.700 And it's that realization that makes them a better developer, a more secure developer going forward. 29:09.400 --> 29:21.660 We've seen a trend where a lot of the folks that we've taken, actually, I think all but one of the developers that we've taken to DEF CON have eventually become security champions members. 29:21.660 --> 29:36.160 And then more recently, in the last couple of months, one of those developers, I think he was the first one I took to DEF CON with us, ended up joining the Information Security team on a full-time manner. 29:36.200 --> 29:38.940 And Shane, if you're listening, welcome. 29:39.020 --> 29:41.540 I'm really glad that you're part of the team. 29:41.960 --> 29:45.800 So there's a couple of other fun activities that we do in developer training. 29:45.800 --> 29:47.720 Again, got to keep it fun. 29:47.780 --> 29:49.240 Everything has to be fun. 29:49.240 --> 29:51.900 You learn better when you're having a good time. 29:51.900 --> 29:53.440 I look at DEF CON. 29:53.440 --> 29:57.000 We're all having a great time and we're learning stuff. 29:57.000 --> 30:02.260 So a couple of DEF CONs ago, for reasons of work, I couldn't make it. 30:02.260 --> 30:07.520 It was the only DEF CON since coming over to Information Security that I was not able to go to. 30:07.520 --> 30:10.160 And I must admit I was bummed. 30:10.160 --> 30:15.300 So what I decided to do was I was going to have my own little DEF CON. 30:15.340 --> 30:21.720 And we decided that, okay, let's just take people along for the ride. 30:21.720 --> 30:29.820 So we identified five videos from previous DEF CONs and we had a lunch and learn for five days that week where we watched it. 30:29.820 --> 30:31.220 We talked about it. 30:31.220 --> 30:35.880 We had drawings for DEF CON related swag or items or giveaways. 30:35.880 --> 30:38.200 We just kind of had a good time. 30:38.200 --> 30:41.980 It was kind of built up as, you know, hey, take a break. 30:41.980 --> 30:44.020 Come bring your lunch. 30:44.020 --> 30:44.960 Let's hang out. 30:44.960 --> 30:46.760 Watch something from DEF CON. 30:46.840 --> 30:47.720 Talk about it. 30:47.720 --> 30:49.340 You might win a t-shirt. 30:49.340 --> 30:51.840 You might win some stickers, whatever. 30:52.000 --> 30:53.740 And people really enjoyed it. 30:53.740 --> 30:55.180 It was a lot of fun. 30:55.180 --> 31:03.140 As a matter of fact, I'm probably going to do one this fall for the folks that didn't get to enjoy what you're doing right now, what you're enjoying right now. 31:03.400 --> 31:06.300 And then finally, I have an annual thank you lunch and learn. 31:06.480 --> 31:10.820 This was a tradition I started the first year we did lunch and learns. 31:10.940 --> 31:13.660 It's always the last lunch and learn of the year. 31:13.660 --> 31:17.740 And I typically will go out and I'll purchase quite a few giveaways. 31:17.740 --> 31:19.100 They don't have to be expensive. 31:19.420 --> 31:24.560 We do things for, you know, like say the Bluetooth speakers, boxes of candy. 31:24.560 --> 31:33.420 We've done some Christmas mug sets, you know, just weird things, but things that are kind of fun. 31:33.560 --> 31:43.300 And we do a shorter lunch and learn followed by a session where we just eat some good food and we have some drawings. 31:43.300 --> 31:52.120 And I have an opportunity to thank my development community for the support of the lunch and learn program and for the support they've given to information security. 31:52.260 --> 31:55.480 I think it's important to say thank you. 31:55.480 --> 31:59.720 And this has been just an incredibly popular lunch and learn every year. 31:59.720 --> 32:03.260 It's a lot of fun and I highly recommend it. 32:03.260 --> 32:08.840 So here are the keys to a successful training program. 32:08.840 --> 32:14.220 Make it applicable and give the developers a voice in the training. 32:14.300 --> 32:21.000 And usually if you give them a voice in the training, it will be applicable just because they're going to tell you what they need. 32:21.680 --> 32:26.260 I think I've mentioned this 1427 times, but make it fun. 32:26.260 --> 32:28.000 It's got to be fun. 32:29.520 --> 32:32.100 Share how much you care about this stuff. 32:32.100 --> 32:39.660 If you're engaged, you're passionate about it, people are going to feel that and they're going to gravitate to you and gravitate to that topic. 32:39.660 --> 32:41.720 And then finally build relationships. 32:41.720 --> 32:47.300 Listen, reward, and always express gratitude along the way in this journey. 32:47.540 --> 32:56.120 So we're getting into the next phase of the toolkit and this is what I like to call the analysis hat trick. 32:56.120 --> 33:03.980 Three types of analysis that if we implement all three, we're going to have a much more secure code base in production. 33:03.980 --> 33:06.080 And the first is static code analysis. 33:06.080 --> 33:09.400 You might remember that from our SDLC pyramid. 33:10.220 --> 33:15.200 So static code analysis scans the code without running it. 33:15.200 --> 33:18.580 It looks for known patterns of vulnerabilities. 33:19.240 --> 33:22.760 You can usually select what you scan for. 33:22.760 --> 33:28.980 Some will allow you to scan for PCI, I almost always scan for OWASP top 10. 33:29.120 --> 33:34.940 If you're not familiar with OWASP or OWASP top 10, I strongly recommend that you check it out. 33:35.220 --> 33:38.820 Some of the deliverables from that organization are absolutely stellar. 33:39.040 --> 33:45.020 I've been a member for I think seven years now, just after joining the InfoSec team. 33:45.820 --> 33:49.360 And I've leveraged a ton of their stuff. 33:49.360 --> 33:52.540 So great organization, hats off to you if you're out there. 33:52.700 --> 33:58.300 In an ideal world, the static code analysis tools would only report the confirmed vulnerabilities. 33:58.820 --> 34:04.140 But even if you tune the daylights out of this thing, you're still going to get false positives. 34:04.140 --> 34:05.560 And that becomes a problem. 34:05.560 --> 34:15.120 Because originally, when we first set up this process, I was the only one that could review the false positives and whitelist them or waive them, as it were. 34:15.840 --> 34:19.620 That slowed things down immensely, because that was not my full-time job. 34:19.620 --> 34:27.080 That was something else on top of my full-time job, and possibly another full-time job some days, it felt like. 34:27.080 --> 34:32.300 So that being said, I decided to leverage the security champions. 34:32.300 --> 34:35.820 These were folks that had some basic knowledge of security. 34:35.820 --> 34:39.280 They knew their applications better than I ever would. 34:39.280 --> 34:44.640 And they had a passion for making secure code. 34:44.860 --> 34:46.180 Seemed like a perfect fit. 34:46.180 --> 34:55.960 So what I ended up giving several members of the security champions team the ability to review and waive false positives. 34:55.960 --> 34:57.560 And that has worked out great. 34:57.560 --> 35:03.040 The end result was we've had a lot more throughput. 35:03.040 --> 35:06.540 We've been able to address false positives much more quickly. 35:06.540 --> 35:13.720 And the adoption of the static code analysis tools have actually increased as a result of not having that delay. 35:14.260 --> 35:19.520 So I also see static code analysis as an extension of developer training. 35:19.520 --> 35:23.180 A lot of these tools have an IDE component. 35:23.300 --> 35:28.140 So for example, I use the SpringToolSweep Eclipse. 35:28.140 --> 35:37.420 And you can use the plugin and execute your scan from within your developer tool. 35:37.420 --> 35:41.000 And it will take you straight to the line that's got the problem. 35:41.000 --> 35:53.400 And in some of these tools, you can even have recommendations pop up in the bottom of one of the windows that says, hey, you might try blank, blank, and blank to address this vulnerability. 35:53.660 --> 36:02.100 If developers are doing this while they're developing, not waiting for the build process, it becomes a teaching tool. 36:02.100 --> 36:12.780 Because as a developer uses this, he or she is going to identify and learn that, oh, I need to check my input fields to make sure they're the right type and right size. 36:12.780 --> 36:13.200 Okay. 36:13.200 --> 36:15.720 You do that enough times, it becomes second nature. 36:15.720 --> 36:23.800 So this becomes not only a way to secure your code, but a teaching opportunity as well. 36:24.280 --> 36:31.800 So studies have shown that static code analysis can identify up to 80% of vulnerabilities. 36:31.800 --> 36:32.880 That's pretty awesome. 36:32.880 --> 36:38.880 If I could tell you that you can do one thing and remove 80% of vulnerabilities, I think that'd be worth doing. 36:38.880 --> 36:41.940 So this might be something you might want to take a look at. 36:42.180 --> 36:44.140 Here's some example products. 36:44.140 --> 36:47.640 There's three products along the top that are commercial. 36:47.820 --> 36:53.860 OWASP has an entire list of code analysis tools at that link right there. 36:53.860 --> 37:06.140 Again, not meant as recommendations, but these were tools that I've come across in my journeys, and they might be worth at least acting as a starting point for your own investigation. 37:07.200 --> 37:13.760 So the second goal in our hat trick, the second piece to the tripod, is dynamic code analysis. 37:13.760 --> 37:16.620 This was also in the SDLC pyramid. 37:16.820 --> 37:23.340 So unlike static code analysis, dynamic code analysis actually executes the code. 37:23.440 --> 37:32.540 Now that has a prerequisite that the code has to be compiled and free of errors and can run before you can actually perform the dynamic code analysis. 37:32.720 --> 37:41.180 Dynamic code analysis, I mentioned this before, is different than pen testing, whereas dynamic code analysis looks for the flaws in the code that can be exploited. 37:41.920 --> 37:51.080 Pen testing looks for ways to exploit the system in general, often at a greater detail, and almost always involving a human attacker. 37:51.080 --> 37:54.320 So again, two different things. 37:54.320 --> 38:04.140 They're kind of similar, but I really think that dynamic code analysis is really, at best, a subset of a good penetration test. 38:05.260 --> 38:23.200 So dynamic code analysis tools can identify up to 85%, but if you combine them with the static code analysis tools on the market, up to 95% of your application's vulnerabilities can be identified early on. 38:23.920 --> 38:25.880 95%, that's pretty darn impressive. 38:26.160 --> 38:29.820 So again, I'm going to throw a few products up here for you to take a look at. 38:29.960 --> 38:31.900 I've used several of these. 38:33.020 --> 38:36.340 Again, not recommendations , but a place for you to start. 38:37.360 --> 38:38.760 Give you a word of warning. 38:38.760 --> 38:45.540 I think I told you earlier on, I would tell you some things that work and some things that just didn't seem to work quite so well. 38:46.300 --> 38:49.320 Some of these tools can be weapons. 38:49.320 --> 38:51.220 I'm looking at you, Burp Suite. 38:52.340 --> 39:01.300 You need to do things like make sure you set the scope of your testing tool so it doesn't see that, oh, I've got a link to Facebook here. 39:01.300 --> 39:05.920 I will jump and follow that link in my crawl and I will start attacking Facebook. 39:05.920 --> 39:11.320 Set your scope absolutely to your application only. 39:11.560 --> 39:13.260 Run this stuff in test. 39:13.260 --> 39:14.780 Don't run it in production. 39:15.300 --> 39:28.600 If you find a SQL injection exploit and you start to execute it, it's very, very likely that you're going to corrupt or lose data on the database on the backside of that injection vulnerability. 39:29.340 --> 39:32.200 Also, watch out for forms. 39:32.540 --> 39:40.860 So let's say you're doing some dynamic testing and it's automated and you're getting ready to essentially attack a web form. 39:41.320 --> 39:46.500 Make sure you find out where that web form is going before you start your test. 39:46.500 --> 39:55.000 You can easily overrun a service desk by submitting thousands upon thousands of emails from a web mail form. 39:55.000 --> 39:58.900 Not saying that I've ever done that, but I know that it has happened. 39:58.900 --> 40:03.780 So the third goal in our hat trick is open source analysis. 40:04.000 --> 40:05.720 Open source is awesome. 40:05.720 --> 40:07.840 We all use open source. 40:08.060 --> 40:16.100 Some estimates put the percentage of open source in internally developed applications at 70%. 40:16.100 --> 40:17.940 That's 70%. 40:18.600 --> 40:33.300 Now the problem with that is, as a result, about 50% of our applications contain one or more open source pieces that has a high security vulnerability. 40:33.380 --> 40:41.700 And keeping that out of production is a huge, There are two different approaches I've taken when I've tried to address this problem. 40:41.700 --> 40:45.080 The first was a firewall slash proxy solution. 40:45.080 --> 40:51.220 There are products out there that you can actually set up that will proxy the main repos out in the wild. 40:51.220 --> 40:58.920 And they'll check as you pull down code libraries, they'll check them for license compliance. 40:58.920 --> 41:04.180 So you can say, hey, I'm okay with this license, this license, but I don't want that license. 41:04.180 --> 41:12.660 So you can set that up ahead of time and it'll check each time a module is pulled down that it is in compliance with your licensing. 41:12.660 --> 41:17.400 But more importantly, you can also set a vulnerability threshold. 41:17.460 --> 41:22.040 So you could, for example, say, hey, I don't want any critical or high translation. 41:22.040 --> 41:28.120 I don't want any CVE 7 or higher coming into my organization's local repository. 41:28.460 --> 41:44.340 So the problem with that is a lot of the tools that developers use, particularly in DevOps for automating building of systems, automating testing, have vulnerabilities because they really weren't meant to go live anywhere. 41:44.340 --> 41:55.940 They were basically developer aids, developer tools, and your policy is going to quarantine or prevent them from coming into your local repository. 41:55.940 --> 41:58.980 The result is you get a lot of phone calls. 41:58.980 --> 42:03.520 Hey, this module, I need it, I need it now, and it's quarantined. 42:03.520 --> 42:19.820 Well, that requires getting out on the firewall or proxy and looking at what's quarantined, determining how it's going to be used, where it's going to be used, and does that CVE apply in this use case, and then deciding whether you can waive it or not. 42:19.820 --> 42:23.220 It is a labor-intensive process. 42:24.300 --> 42:34.380 I didn't really like doing it this way at first, so I ended up moving to a build-based solution. 42:34.380 --> 42:43.060 Build-based solutions are very similar to what we're going to see in just a few minutes, where you basically add an open source review step to your automated build process. 42:43.060 --> 42:55.380 If you find that same vulnerability as it's going to production, let's say it's a CVE of 8, and it's going into production, you fail the build. 42:55.380 --> 43:12.820 At that point, the developers have the opportunity to go, okay, I need to get a security waiver, or I need to find a more recent or more updated library that doesn't have that CVE as an outstanding issue. 43:12.820 --> 43:16.680 So this ended up reducing the manual intervention. 43:16.980 --> 43:26.700 The only problem is you could end up having something on your internal network with a CVE of 7 or higher that's a developer tool. 43:26.700 --> 43:38.800 You've got to be very careful when you're whitelisting or removing items from quarantine to understand how it's going to be used, and if the CVE itself can be exploited in that manner. 43:38.800 --> 43:41.180 So here's some products once again. 43:42.560 --> 43:45.160 OWASP, I've mentioned them several times. 43:45.160 --> 43:46.480 Great organization. 43:46.480 --> 43:48.160 Again, these are not recommendations. 43:48.160 --> 43:52.440 These are simply places for you to start if you haven't looked at these already. 43:53.440 --> 43:55.740 And finally, let's talk about automation. 43:55.740 --> 43:59.300 So those last three steps, they seem like a lot. 43:59.300 --> 44:06.480 And originally we were doing them manually, and it became unwieldy very quickly. 44:07.020 --> 44:09.180 It just took a lot of time. 44:09.180 --> 44:12.100 It took a lot of effort. 44:12.520 --> 44:17.860 So what we were able to do was automate most of this into the build pipeline. 44:17.860 --> 44:30.000 So if you have a continuous integration tool, something like Jenkins, you can add steps that execute static code analysis, dynamic code analysis, and open source analysis with every build. 44:30.000 --> 44:38.480 So this gives you all of that protection over 95% from the studies with every single build that you do. 44:38.800 --> 44:41.080 Now, there's some things that are just too stinking big. 44:41.080 --> 45:02.380 So if you're still dealing with legacy applications, big old monolithic jars and ears, if you've got something that's somewhere in the hundreds of thousands of lines of code, sometimes close to a million lines of code, this is not going to go well for you because the dynamic scan, 45:02.380 --> 45:07.200 the static scan, those pieces are going to take a long, long time. 45:07.200 --> 45:13.860 I tested one application for a friend of mine just to try it. 45:13.860 --> 45:21.600 It was a legacy application, and the scan for just the static code analysis piece took over 12 hours. 45:21.600 --> 45:27.580 You can't stop a build for 12 hours and expect the developers not to be concerned. 45:27.580 --> 45:31.920 So I don't recommend this for large applications. 45:31.920 --> 45:38.080 If you do, you might do it as an asynchronous build step. 45:38.080 --> 45:41.700 So basically, it says, hey, I've got to go do static code analysis. 45:41.700 --> 45:44.580 I'm going to launch it and I'm going to continue with my build. 45:44.580 --> 45:53.160 You lose the advantage of being able to block at that point, but you still have an automated scan going along. 45:53.160 --> 46:02.840 You'll need to have a process in place to alert the development team as well as information security of the results of that scan, and then decide how you want to react. 46:02.840 --> 46:04.980 But you lose the ability to block. 46:04.980 --> 46:12.400 But fortunately, the industry is really moving towards smaller builds, APIs, microservices, things like that. 46:12.400 --> 46:16.260 And inline scans are very, very possible. 46:16.260 --> 46:17.440 They're very fast. 46:17.440 --> 46:24.000 These tools are tuned for this kind of work, and they run incredibly, incredibly fast. 46:25.720 --> 46:33.260 Just aside, some of the tools are still working on their automated pipeline plugins. 46:33.260 --> 46:46.700 So if you are looking at any of the tools, whether it's the ones I've mentioned or something else, make sure that you ask about the maturity of their continuous integration pipeline plugins. 46:48.340 --> 46:54.440 Otherwise, you might find yourself stuck manually doing this for a while until you can find a way to do that. 46:56.080 --> 46:58.560 I want to end with a couple of final thoughts. 46:58.860 --> 47:05.600 So the keys to success, hopefully you can read this, they are start small. 47:05.600 --> 47:06.700 Do one thing. 47:06.700 --> 47:14.500 For me, it was starting with a training program that literally led to everything else that you saw in this presentation. 47:14.500 --> 47:19.760 And as you saw in the presentation, this stuff tended to feed upon itself. 47:19.960 --> 47:26.380 The developer training led to more developer training, which led to a security program. 47:26.380 --> 47:30.160 So start small, and it will all come together. 47:30.660 --> 47:35.800 Get management buy-in by both Information Security and by AppSec Management. 47:36.460 --> 47:40.020 The centerpiece right there, that has to be the key for me. 47:40.020 --> 47:41.220 It has to be fun. 47:41.220 --> 47:44.580 When this stuff is no longer fun, I'm not going to do it anymore. 47:44.580 --> 47:48.060 We've got to keep making it fun, particularly for our developers. 47:48.060 --> 47:50.500 Developers are doing a lot of stuff. 47:50.500 --> 47:55.600 Adding security on top of everything else they're doing is a pain in the butt. 47:55.600 --> 48:00.680 And for the most part, it's not welcome, unless you can make it fun. 48:00.680 --> 48:03.640 If you can make it fun, it's going to happen. 48:03.820 --> 48:08.300 So just like we just mentioned, automate everything you possibly can. 48:08.340 --> 48:10.300 And remember, it's all about those relationships. 48:10.300 --> 48:13.820 The relationships with your scrum teams. 48:13.820 --> 48:17.660 It's the relationships with your developers. 48:17.660 --> 48:23.120 It's the relationships with your vendors and the trainers that you can get to come in. 48:23.440 --> 48:27.700 So building a good relationship is key. 48:28.500 --> 48:30.600 Don't try to reinvent the wheel. 48:31.200 --> 48:35.500 The best innovation is usually stolen from somewhere, or given from somewhere. 48:35.500 --> 48:44.600 So if you can take one piece from this discussion and implement it in your organization, I will feel blessed, and I'd love to hear about it. 48:45.560 --> 48:46.880 Take it slow. 48:47.140 --> 48:51.300 This stuff is new for all of us, and it's always changing. 48:52.600 --> 48:56.280 And finally, learn what works best in your environment. 48:56.300 --> 48:58.840 So I want to wrap up with thank yous. 48:58.840 --> 49:07.020 I want to thank you for spending the last 40, 45 minutes, whatever it ended up being, with me and with AppSec Village. 49:07.020 --> 49:08.560 I want to thank AppSec Village. 49:08.560 --> 49:10.780 I got to volunteer there last year. 49:10.780 --> 49:13.260 I ended up spending the entire DEF CON there. 49:13.880 --> 49:20.320 After, I think that was my sixth year in information security, I finally found my home, and that is the AppSec Village. 49:20.320 --> 49:26.220 So thank you to the leadership of AppSec Village for doing this, and for giving me this opportunity. 49:26.760 --> 49:37.120 I want to reiterate my thanks to Jim Manico, and he's kind of been my spirit leader on this journey, and I appreciate all you've done. 49:37.400 --> 49:41.620 My colleagues Barry and Shane, my partners in crime, you guys are awesome. 49:41.620 --> 49:50.320 And finally, my best friend, my wife, who's put up with me doing this and several other things in information security. 49:50.700 --> 49:54.400 She's absolutely the best, and I can't thank her enough. 49:54.460 --> 49:56.280 So thank you guys very much. 49:56.280 --> 50:04.680 I appreciate you spending this time with me, and I hope you have a really, really excellent rest of your DEF CON. 50:04.680 --> 50:05.580 Thanks.