1 00:00:00,660 --> 00:00:01,920 Welcome, everyone. 2 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:08,960 I'm really excited to be presenting at our virtual DEF CON this year in the Biohacking Village. 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,340 I'll be talking today about cybersecurity-informed consent. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,180 A few disclosures before I begin my talk. 5 00:00:18,180 --> 00:00:23,800 I previously worked at the Cleveland Clinic, and I have a little bit of equity there. 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:29,280 I received salary support from the NIH, for which I am eternally grateful. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:36,500 And I do a lot of volunteer work for the Global Alliance for Genomics and Health, the National Society of Genetic Counselors. 8 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:41,260 And I'm a founding member of the Digital Medicine Society, and I will shamelessly plug them now. 9 00:00:41,260 --> 00:00:42,700 You should join, too. 10 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:49,620 And also, really importantly, the work that I'm presenting, I have not done by myself. 11 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,800 Specifically, I had three close collaborators. 12 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:18,520 So last year at DEF CON, Andy Corvos, who's pictured on the left there, introduced me to Jeff and Christian, who are pictured on the right, to merge the minds together, bringing my ethics experience, Andy's engineering experience, and Jeff and Christian's experience as doctors and security researchers, 13 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:25,880 all into one pool to create this idea of cybersecurity informed consent. 14 00:01:28,100 --> 00:01:37,540 So today, I'm going to talk a little bit about the cybersecurity of medical devices, which is background for the ethics folks that might be watching this talk. 15 00:01:37,540 --> 00:01:44,360 Then I'm going to be talking a little bit about informed consent, which will be perhaps some background that's good for the engineering folks. 16 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:50,440 And then we'll bring it all together in the concept of cybersecurity informed consent. 17 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:55,520 So let's talk about the cybersecurity of medical devices. 18 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,380 And for many of you in the biohacking village, this will seem very basic. 19 00:01:59,580 --> 00:02:05,180 But for people who are new to this space, hopefully this will help you catch on to what's going on here. 20 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:11,100 So it's important to note that medical devices are extremely common in the United States. 21 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:18,860 More than 2% of Americans have some sort of implantable medical device within them, which is truly amazing. 22 00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:20,140 The U.S. 23 00:02:20,140 --> 00:02:23,860 is the largest medical device market in the world. 24 00:02:23,860 --> 00:02:27,740 And it's a lot, a lot of money that's involved in this. 25 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:34,960 Another interesting point, though, is that most medical device companies are very small. 26 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:44,800 And I think that that's a really important point as we think about the concept of cybersecurity informed consent, that many of these groups are really small shops. 27 00:02:46,780 --> 00:02:49,440 Medical devices are regulated. 28 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,540 So the FDA is responsible for the regulation of medical devices. 29 00:02:53,540 --> 00:03:01,740 They have oversight on oodles and oodles of devices, device manufacturers, and device facilities. 30 00:03:02,300 --> 00:03:11,260 And it's important to note that the FDA is not the only agency that's involved in cybersecurity. 31 00:03:11,260 --> 00:03:22,880 So the FTC and the Department of Homeland Security, among other agencies, each have a piece of the cybersecurity infrastructure pie when it comes to regulation. 32 00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:31,250 Oodles of medical devices are also connected devices. 33 00:03:31,250 --> 00:03:42,670 So these figures are from this paper on cybersecurity features of medical devices, which was a tremendous paper that was published in 2019. 34 00:03:42,670 --> 00:03:47,350 So in 2016, 18% of new devices had software. 35 00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:52,250 And that has increased really dramatically over time. 36 00:03:52,250 --> 00:04:01,770 And certainly, as we think about 2018, 2019, 2020, the percentage of devices which are connected has not decreased over that time. 37 00:04:02,570 --> 00:04:13,290 However, the amount of cybersecurity content that's included in those devices, that's disclosed in those devices, is relatively small. 38 00:04:13,290 --> 00:04:20,170 So the graph on the top has a different y-axis scale than the graph on the bottom. 39 00:04:20,170 --> 00:04:29,500 So you can see increasing number of devices that have software, and then slowly increasing the number that include cybersecurity content. 40 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,800 And connected devices have vulnerability. 41 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:52,860 So anything that's connected to the internet, whether it's your phone, or your watch, or your computer, or your implanted medical device, any connected device has cybersecurity vulnerability. 42 00:04:52,860 --> 00:05:00,280 There is no device that does not have cybersecurity vulnerability that is connected to the internet. 43 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:14,560 This was first highlighted in 2008, and actually influenced Dick Cheney's choice of Pacemaker, because he was worried about cybersecurity vulnerability. 44 00:05:14,740 --> 00:05:25,000 On the right-hand side of the screen, you can see some examples of cybersecurity concerns within the implantable medical device domain. 45 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,140 So IMD is implantable medical device. 46 00:05:28,140 --> 00:05:30,400 So you can see there are challenges with it. 47 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:42,980 Authentication, integrity, confidentiality, authorization, all of these domains each has very specific concerns when applied to implantable medical devices. 48 00:05:43,900 --> 00:05:47,420 So there are lots of devices out there on the market. 49 00:05:47,420 --> 00:05:49,460 More and more of them are connected. 50 00:05:49,460 --> 00:05:52,340 Any connected device has a vulnerability. 51 00:05:54,620 --> 00:05:57,800 Now let's talk about informed consent. 52 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:06,980 So it's really important to remember that informed consent is a process, not a thing. 53 00:06:06,980 --> 00:06:13,380 So you can't just say, I've signed a paper, or I've said yes or no to a question . 54 00:06:13,380 --> 00:06:19,960 Informed consent is really a process, a process of conversation between two parties. 55 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:27,780 Planned Parenthood has this fabulous way of remembering the elements of informed consent, FRISE. 56 00:06:27,780 --> 00:06:30,200 So consent needs to be freely given. 57 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:31,740 It needs to be reversible. 58 00:06:31,740 --> 00:06:35,560 It needs to be informed, meaning you know what you're getting yourself into. 59 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:41,560 In the case of consent in the context of Planned Parenthood, they require enthusiastic. 60 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,020 Within the medical context, sometimes the enthusiasm is a little bit muted. 61 00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:47,280 That's fine. 62 00:06:47,540 --> 00:06:49,680 And it also needs to be specific. 63 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:59,640 So when you're consenting to something, you really need to be informed what it is you're deciding on, and you need to know the specifics of what you're deciding on. 64 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:11,700 And this seems like pretty obvious, but it sometimes gets lost in translation when you get into a medical context, and certainly when you start to think about connected medical devices. 65 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:21,920 So informed consent in medical care and research has those same properties, specific, informed, voluntary, and reversible. 66 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,780 It's been described by a lot of very famous statements in the ethics community. 67 00:07:27,780 --> 00:07:47,280 For example, the Nuremberg Code, and the Declaration of Helsinki, and the Belmont Report, all of which were seminal pieces of ethics literature that pointed out the requirements for informed consent within medical care and within research. 68 00:07:47,620 --> 00:07:50,800 Informed consent is also mandated by law. 69 00:07:50,800 --> 00:08:02,820 So within the United States, here are some of the specific codes and specific agencies that require informed consent within the medical care and medical research setting. 70 00:08:02,820 --> 00:08:11,960 The quote on the right is actually from one of the first decisions in the United States around informed consent. 71 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:34,380 In this case, in New York State, there was a case of medical negligence because a surgeon had not properly informed the person that they were operating on about the potential outcomes of what might happen to them when they received treatment. 72 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:43,320 So we have a long precedent, more than 100 years of precedent in the United States legally for informed consent in the medical setting. 73 00:08:45,860 --> 00:08:48,020 So this is a really busy slide. 74 00:08:48,580 --> 00:08:53,400 What's important to know about it is that we're not good at informed consent. 75 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,840 So although we know informed consent is really important in the medical context, we're not really good at it. 76 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:14,400 So if you look at the green box, what the green box is pointing out is the number of studies that have looked at informed consent that have shown that the people in those studies had adequate understanding of key components of informed consent. 77 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:29,220 For example, six out of 21 studies showed adequate understanding of the information being given in the informed consent process, which is about 29 percent of the time. 78 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:32,360 And then you can go over to the yellow box. 79 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,160 That's the moderate understanding. 80 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:46,240 And moderate in this study meant that 50 percent of people to 79 percent of people got questions right around understanding the information. 81 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,680 So most people fall into that bucket. 82 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:58,340 And then you can see a really large percentage of people fall into the inadequate bucket, meaning that they understood less than half of the information that was given to them. 83 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:07,340 So although we know that consent is important, the practice of informed consent in medicine isn't very strong. 84 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,160 That's a problem, obviously. 85 00:10:12,860 --> 00:10:15,920 One of the reasons is literacy. 86 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:21,880 So informed consent documentation in medicine tends to be written by lawyers. 87 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:30,080 And lawyers, although well-meaning, don't necessarily write in language that everyday people can understand. 88 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:34,500 One in five Americans read at or below the fifth grade reading level. 89 00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:38,120 One in three Americans has basic or below basic health literacy. 90 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:47,740 And as we all know, stress, anxiety, pain, depression, all of these things can lower our reading comprehension and our reading ability. 91 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,860 And that's what we find in the medical context. 92 00:10:50,860 --> 00:11:04,700 So if you're going in to see a doctor to get an implanted medical device, highly likely that you're either stressed, anxious, in pain, or depressed about this medical need. 93 00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:11,060 And so that will really impact people's ability to understand what it is that they're getting themselves into. 94 00:11:11,060 --> 00:11:21,060 So it's important for us to know about the limitations of informed consent as we think about telling people about the cybersecurity vulnerabilities of medical devices. 95 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:29,820 Fortunately, innovation in informed consent is happening right now in research, which is tremendous. 96 00:11:29,820 --> 00:11:49,500 So my group at Sage Bionetworks, which is a nonprofit open science organization, has been working on creating electronic informed consent processes, which are visually engaging, which distill the information that's being given and allow people to navigate through at their own pace. 97 00:11:50,220 --> 00:12:00,300 The All of Us Research Program, which is a massive research initiative, has done some incredible work, innovative work, with informed consent. 98 00:12:00,740 --> 00:12:10,720 They wanted to enroll a really diverse patient population into their study, and so they really put a lot of the time and attention into their informed consent process. 99 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:20,120 It's written at the fifth grade reading level, it includes little videos to help people understand, and there are get help buttons along the way. 100 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:29,880 So although the state of informed consent hasn't been so good up until now, there's a lot of work that's being done right now to improve informed consent. 101 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:42,120 And what we're finding... oh and here's some more information about the All of Us Research Program's informed consent... but what we're finding is that this effort is paying off. 102 00:12:42,120 --> 00:13:01,220 So in that study that I showed you with the green, yellow, and red boxes, they said only one out of 15 studies showed an adequate understanding that participating in research is not the same as receiving medical care. 103 00:13:01,220 --> 00:13:10,240 So one of the questions, a quiz question that's posed to people after they complete the All of Us informed consent process is, what's the purpose of All of Us? 104 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,680 And one of the question answers is to give medical advice and treatment. 105 00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:30,440 And you can see from this graph more than 90 percent of people, regardless of their educational attainment, were able to correctly answer the question that the purpose of All of Us is to help scientists make discoveries about health. 106 00:13:30,580 --> 00:13:35,000 So our innovation is working, which is great. 107 00:13:35,260 --> 00:13:38,320 So the state of informed consent hasn't been so good. 108 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,260 We're working on ways to improve it. 109 00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:44,060 It looks like those efforts are really starting to pay dividends. 110 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:50,620 So how does this all come together when we start to think about cybersecurity informed consent? 111 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:01,860 All right, so cybersecurity informed consent is a combination of ethics and engineering in medicine. 112 00:14:01,860 --> 00:14:08,140 So you need to take all the ethics folks' knowledge and all the engineering folks' knowledge and put it together. 113 00:14:10,270 --> 00:14:19,130 So the cybersecurity of medical devices and informed consent together is this concept of cybersecurity informed consent. 114 00:14:20,050 --> 00:14:27,490 It's an informing interaction for patients who are getting a connected implantable medical device. 115 00:14:27,550 --> 00:14:37,010 The purpose of cybersecurity informed consent is to tell the patient about cybersecurity and its implications for their soon-to-be implanted device. 116 00:14:37,010 --> 00:14:41,150 So we're trying to inform people about the device that they're getting. 117 00:14:41,150 --> 00:14:47,090 So when we think back to the principles of informed consent, one of the things is that it has to be specific and it has to be informed. 118 00:14:47,090 --> 00:14:54,730 So people need to know what it is that's happening to them and they need to understand some of the specifics of what's going on. 119 00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:58,270 Cybersecurity informed consent is not yet federally mandated. 120 00:14:58,270 --> 00:15:05,930 So there's no guidelines for how it should fit into workflows or what topics should be covered or how they should be addressed. 121 00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:17,790 And for now, we're just focusing cybersecurity informed consent on implantable devices because that seems to be, let's say, one of the areas of most urgent need. 122 00:15:17,790 --> 00:15:26,530 So if you're getting something put inside of your body, understanding its limitations and risks is really, really critical. 123 00:15:28,530 --> 00:15:40,850 We created a straw man or straw person diagram of how cybersecurity could work within a current clinical workflow. 124 00:15:40,850 --> 00:15:47,330 The idea would be that a person comes in for their pre-surgical visit. 125 00:15:47,330 --> 00:15:56,930 So when you have a surgery, usually you come in a few days before to have a medical checkup to make sure everything's good before your surgical date. 126 00:15:56,930 --> 00:16:10,210 At that visit, patients could be told about cybersecurity informed consent and then they could take the time to navigate themselves through a cybersecurity informed consent process. 127 00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:19,890 So on the left hand side, you can see here a person comes into the clinic some number of days before they're getting their implantable device. 128 00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:22,250 They have all of their pre-op activities. 129 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:30,790 And then in the third step, they make sure that they have this cybersecurity informed consent completed. 130 00:16:32,430 --> 00:16:41,230 After the pre-op appointment, the idea on the right side here is that the patient would self-navigate through this cybersecurity informed consent. 131 00:16:41,230 --> 00:16:56,550 So walk themselves through a digital informed consent like the ones that we have been using in the All of Us research program and in other innovative research efforts, telling people about cybersecurity and how we keep you safe. 132 00:16:56,650 --> 00:17:03,810 And then the patient can ask questions and then they sign off on it and then they're ready to go for their implantable device. 133 00:17:04,110 --> 00:17:15,010 So Jeff, Andy, and Christian and I put together this straw man document to sort of prompt people to think about would this actually work in clinic. 134 00:17:16,970 --> 00:17:24,510 We thought about this workflow specifically because we wanted to capitalize on each group's strengths. 135 00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:33,230 So the people who know the most about the cybersecurity of the devices that are getting implanted into people are actually the manufacturers themselves. 136 00:17:34,430 --> 00:17:45,690 And so if we could create an informed consent process that the manufacturers themselves contributed to, then we might have one that has the most accurate information. 137 00:17:47,050 --> 00:17:56,170 The time is most limited on the day of surgery and people are also the most worried on the day of their surgery when they're getting an implanted medical device. 138 00:17:56,170 --> 00:18:08,930 And so making sure that that consent happens in advance so that people can ask questions and take the time and not feel distressed was one of the thoughts that we had in designing that straw man document. 139 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:13,070 We also noted that most people get their information online these days. 140 00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:20,350 Although there is a digital divide, people who are older and in more rural areas tend to be less connected. 141 00:18:20,690 --> 00:18:25,050 So an online process might not work for everyone. 142 00:18:26,790 --> 00:18:33,050 And also then doing things from home gives people time to think and talk to loved ones and come up with questions. 143 00:18:33,050 --> 00:18:38,610 So this was our rationale for designing this original straw man document. 144 00:18:39,970 --> 00:18:45,150 We have received a lot of critique on it, which is tremendous actually. 145 00:18:45,150 --> 00:19:07,390 So we've shared this at the CyberMed Summit in the fall last year and with a number of different groups of people, including folks from the FDA and a working group that we've convened of doctors, manufacturers, hackers, and ethicists like myself. 146 00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:08,910 And so here are some of the critiques. 147 00:19:08,910 --> 00:19:14,850 So doctors are used to the sole source of informed consent for medical devices. 148 00:19:14,850 --> 00:19:16,790 Well, for all medical care. 149 00:19:16,790 --> 00:19:32,310 And so many of the doctors that we've talked to have felt a little bit nervous about having patients navigating a device manufacturer's information around cybersecurity. 150 00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:36,710 Patients are also used to getting or doing informed consent with their doctor. 151 00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:39,910 So this would be a different step for them. 152 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:45,550 There's also been the critique of if there's no federal mandate, why rock the boat? 153 00:19:45,910 --> 00:19:50,410 To which I would say there's an ethical mandate for people to be informed. 154 00:19:50,410 --> 00:19:53,210 So we're rocking the boat. 155 00:19:54,910 --> 00:19:58,610 Another critique is that cybersecurity is moving so fast. 156 00:19:58,610 --> 00:20:05,250 How can we make a cybersecurity informed consent process that's still relevant after three months or after a year? 157 00:20:05,250 --> 00:20:17,650 Any informed consent process for medical care needs to go through an ethics review process, and a legal review process at the hospital where it's being used. 158 00:20:17,650 --> 00:20:19,330 And that process takes time. 159 00:20:19,330 --> 00:20:28,610 So we can't be constantly changing a cybersecurity informed consent process, even though the field of cybersecurity is always evolving. 160 00:20:29,090 --> 00:20:36,530 There's concern about cybersecurity informed consent disincentivizing people from getting connected devices. 161 00:20:36,530 --> 00:20:54,470 So although we know connected devices, connected medical devices can really truly improve care, people may be nervous about the vulnerabilities and may want not to get connected devices, which physicians, doctors think that would be really bad. 162 00:20:56,210 --> 00:20:59,570 People have asked, do patients really want all of this information? 163 00:20:59,590 --> 00:21:03,690 There's some empirical evidence that suggests that yes, absolutely, they do. 164 00:21:03,690 --> 00:21:12,830 And certainly, when we look at the informed consent literature, patients want to know what's happening with their bodies. 165 00:21:14,890 --> 00:21:19,490 Sometimes implanted medical devices go in emergently, and so consent after the fact. 166 00:21:19,490 --> 00:21:24,050 So that plays with our proposed workflow a little bit. 167 00:21:24,050 --> 00:21:27,170 And then there's the question of who's the responsible party. 168 00:21:27,170 --> 00:21:32,810 So is the doctor responsible for making sure the cybersecurity informed consent happens? 169 00:21:32,810 --> 00:21:34,570 Would it be the manufacturer? 170 00:21:35,910 --> 00:21:38,310 Would it be the hospital system? 171 00:21:38,410 --> 00:21:40,270 Who's responsible for what? 172 00:21:40,270 --> 00:21:43,410 So these are all really, really good critiques. 173 00:21:43,590 --> 00:21:54,750 And we are so happy to have received them and to be working with them to improve our model to come up with a second version. 174 00:21:55,050 --> 00:22:00,150 One last point that's been raised as a critique is the probability of risk. 175 00:22:00,150 --> 00:22:06,530 And the probability of risk, I think, is really an important point for us to address here. 176 00:22:07,290 --> 00:22:14,570 So usually we think about risk in two dimensions, its probability and its magnitude. 177 00:22:14,570 --> 00:22:22,010 So the probability of harm occurring as a result from participation in a research study or participation in medical care. 178 00:22:22,350 --> 00:22:32,630 And federally defined minimal risk is when the magnitude of anticipated harm is not greater than ordinarily encountered in everyday life. 179 00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:40,110 So it's all about probability of harm and magnitude of harm. 180 00:22:40,110 --> 00:22:48,450 But probability and magnitude aren't such good measures when it comes to cyber security, right? 181 00:22:48,450 --> 00:22:57,070 So if you lived in South Africa, this sign might not prevent you from swimming because sharks are sighted there every day. 182 00:22:57,070 --> 00:23:07,630 But if you lived like me on the shores of the Great Lakes of the United States, you might see a sign like this and say, oh my gosh, the apocalypse is nigh. 183 00:23:07,630 --> 00:23:09,390 We're not supposed to have sharks here. 184 00:23:10,110 --> 00:23:16,710 So Suzanne Schwartz put together this slide and she presented it at the CyberMed Summit last fall. 185 00:23:16,710 --> 00:23:29,630 And I thought it was just a spectacular slide looking at the exploitability of devices and the severity of patient harm if exploited. 186 00:23:30,130 --> 00:23:35,450 And so this was her reframing of risk. 187 00:23:35,450 --> 00:23:41,910 And I think that this is something that's really salient to cyber security informed consent. 188 00:23:41,910 --> 00:23:53,390 So we're not really looking at the probability of patient harm, just is the device exploitable and how bad is it if it is exploited. 189 00:23:53,450 --> 00:24:14,310 And so when it comes to a implantable medical device like a pacemaker, you can imagine that if the device was exploited, it could have catastrophic impact for the person who had it because their heart wouldn't be receiving the signal to keep it on rhythm. 190 00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:24,490 So even if the device is not very exploitable, it still has catastrophic, it could have catastrophic implications for patients. 191 00:24:24,610 --> 00:24:44,950 And so for this reason, we're really thinking that cyber security informed consent is important because people should know what cyber security is, understand what device manufacturers are doing to control for that risk, and also be reassured that their devices are at the highest standard of security. 192 00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:50,910 And that they're constantly being looked at by groups like those at the biohacking village. 193 00:24:50,910 --> 00:24:59,030 So really, this sort of brings it all back to the mission of the biohacking village, this little ethics side project that we have going. 194 00:25:00,430 --> 00:25:05,130 So our next steps are to make a mock-up of cyber security informed consent. 195 00:25:05,130 --> 00:25:10,370 So what would it look like if a patient was navigating this cyber security informed consent? 196 00:25:10,370 --> 00:25:13,430 What kinds of information are we going to tell them? 197 00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:15,530 How are we going to tell it to them? 198 00:25:15,550 --> 00:25:20,090 And then we want to try it out with one or more devices in one or more clinics. 199 00:25:20,090 --> 00:25:26,890 And so we've convened a group of people to help us work on this, and I want to thank all of them. 200 00:25:26,890 --> 00:25:30,150 We have a huge group of working group members. 201 00:25:30,450 --> 00:25:40,310 We also were graced with the free and excellent labor of Duke University capstone students who helped us out. 202 00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:49,450 Folks from the FDA have given us comment on our proposals as we've been going along, and we would love for you to join us as well. 203 00:25:49,450 --> 00:25:52,590 So if you're interested in joining, please email me. 204 00:25:52,590 --> 00:26:01,410 There's my email address, or send me a direct message on Twitter, and I would be happy to include you in our group as we move forward. 205 00:26:02,710 --> 00:26:21,610 And with that, I want to thank the Biohacking Village and the device lab at the Biohacking Village, and hopefully next summer we'll all be together in Las Vegas again so that we can see beautiful things like the flowers and the chihuly glass in the Bellagio. 206 00:26:21,610 --> 00:26:23,430 Thanks everyone!