WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:00.980 Hi, everyone. 00:00.980 --> 00:04.280 Welcome to the biohacking village at DEF CON. 00:04.320 --> 00:06.020 This is our sixth year. 00:06.020 --> 00:07.100 I am Nina Ali. 00:07.100 --> 00:08.420 I am the executive director. 00:08.420 --> 00:11.400 This is my fifth year of running the village. 00:11.400 --> 00:12.800 Thank you for coming. 00:13.000 --> 00:18.180 I want to let you know that this year has been quite an adventure. 00:18.340 --> 00:28.320 It's been very similar to one of those choose your adventure books where it's just so many options and you're working through everything trying to make it all work. 00:29.100 --> 00:34.740 I decided last year that I was going to do the keynote, but I knew that I didn't want to do it myself. 00:34.960 --> 00:46.540 So what I have done is accumulated folks that I know, folks that I trust, and people that have very strong expertise in their field. 00:46.560 --> 00:48.140 And I talked to them. 00:48.380 --> 00:52.560 And I want you to know that I did not prep them for these interviews. 00:52.560 --> 00:54.680 I did not give them questions beforehand. 00:54.680 --> 00:59.500 Everything you see is raw emotion, raw gut reactions. 00:59.740 --> 01:14.580 And I think the information is really important, especially right now and for the future of where we are going to go with healthcare and how we can secure it and make patient safety a priority. 01:14.580 --> 01:15.780 Thanks for watching. 01:15.780 --> 01:19.360 Hey, how are you? 01:19.500 --> 01:21.120 I'm getting you. 01:21.200 --> 01:22.560 I'm okay. 01:22.560 --> 01:40.180 So I brought you here because I want the biohacking community to see the people that I talk to, see who I engage with, see where my brain thoughts lie and who I talk to at three in the morning, Eastern Time, when my brain isn't stopping. 01:40.180 --> 01:44.160 So quick origin story on you is... 01:44.160 --> 01:46.020 I met you three years ago. 01:46.040 --> 01:48.840 Jason Street gave us the introduction of Black Hat. 01:48.840 --> 01:50.880 And yes, I do remember everything. 01:51.680 --> 01:52.720 Good brain. 01:53.320 --> 02:00.260 And then my talk got accepted home to own my own pacemaker at Biohack Village. 02:01.300 --> 02:05.300 We kind of just fell into a friendship, I think. 02:05.300 --> 02:08.920 It was just instantaneous, like I knew my whole life. 02:09.120 --> 02:12.280 I remember, like with my first talk, we shared tequila. 02:12.300 --> 02:14.020 I really needed it. 02:14.680 --> 02:23.040 And now, three years later, we're still kicking ass, taking names and planning big things. 02:23.040 --> 02:24.900 We became instant friends. 02:24.940 --> 02:28.820 And we have continuous dialogues at 3 a.m. 02:28.820 --> 02:35.120 Eastern, depending on times here, between like 8 and 9 a.m. 02:35.120 --> 02:36.020 your time. 02:36.140 --> 02:38.360 What are you working on right now? 02:39.360 --> 02:43.160 Working on standardizing and defining shit. 02:43.160 --> 02:50.620 I'm slightly tired of us, you know, having this cookie-cutter approach to medical security and healthcare security. 02:50.620 --> 02:56.300 Because let's face it, you know, this is not a Windows 10 machine or the standard endpoint we're dealing with. 02:56.300 --> 02:58.240 Each one has a different way. 02:58.480 --> 03:04.260 So why are we making it harder on ourselves by not defining and standardizing? 03:04.440 --> 03:08.880 So that's my pet project, is just to get the shit right, define it out. 03:09.120 --> 03:10.960 And let's understand what we're dealing with. 03:10.960 --> 03:12.640 Let's listen to the devices. 03:12.880 --> 03:14.700 Let's not do all the talking. 03:14.960 --> 03:16.380 Let the data speak. 03:17.740 --> 03:20.020 What's your call to action to the community? 03:20.560 --> 03:29.260 I think the biggest thing I've realized is as a community, we can't work together, can't listen to diverse objective stories. 03:29.260 --> 03:34.160 So just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they're wrong or you're wrong. 03:34.160 --> 03:41.600 I think the community as a whole, we should approach this not just about finding problems, we should be finding the solutions. 03:41.640 --> 03:45.920 So we should be the builders, the breakers and the pioneers going forward. 03:45.920 --> 03:49.780 But it takes a village, but intended, right? 03:49.780 --> 03:51.100 Yeah, I did it. 03:51.100 --> 03:52.920 I did a mom joke. 03:53.100 --> 03:57.780 We need to do better. 03:57.780 --> 03:59.000 Shameless plug. 03:59.380 --> 04:04.620 Hey, don't always see someone that's five foot nothing. 04:05.760 --> 04:08.320 I have an opinion, I have a voice. 04:08.320 --> 04:11.360 It's not refined, it's not pretty, right? 04:11.360 --> 04:13.300 I'm going to call it as I see it. 04:13.300 --> 04:14.560 But don't always take offense. 04:14.560 --> 04:16.060 It comes from a good place. 04:16.700 --> 04:23.140 And if you want someone to do log analysis, it is what I eat for breakfast, lunch and supper. 04:23.260 --> 04:24.260 I love logs. 04:24.260 --> 04:25.440 I love data. 04:25.820 --> 04:31.720 Because I believe we can't wait for something to happen and ask where's the data, where's the evidence? 04:31.720 --> 04:33.860 I want to build this shit in now. 04:33.860 --> 04:38.900 Because come 10 years, I can turn around and say, hey, you claim you hacked this device? 04:39.020 --> 04:40.880 Well, motherfucker, you did not. 04:42.020 --> 04:43.900 Who do you want to collaborate with? 04:44.660 --> 04:45.540 Everyone. 04:46.060 --> 04:47.920 But I see it as a trifecta, right? 04:47.920 --> 04:49.160 It's this triangle. 04:49.160 --> 04:50.380 Engineering is awesome. 04:50.380 --> 05:05.640 And I'm geeking out on it because recently I got exposed to an MDM and I got to see the engineering pipeline, which led me to build parsers in Python I never thought I'd do because I was convinced the internet would blow up if I designed something. 05:06.020 --> 05:12.720 And I realized that we have a regulatory body, we have an MDM and we have researchers. 05:13.080 --> 05:22.040 And that's what's going to make the future better, these three elements working together to strengthen healthcare and medical security. 05:22.640 --> 05:29.620 But we shouldn't be imposing things that break healthcare or medical devices further. 05:29.620 --> 05:34.400 Because people like me, this one sitting here, I need this device. 05:34.540 --> 05:42.100 And if we make it so hard that manufacturers stop doing it, you know, people like me won't have a second chance. 05:42.600 --> 05:46.620 So I think you know me well enough that I'm going to throw random things at you. 05:46.880 --> 05:48.360 I can see your brain going. 05:48.360 --> 05:50.480 I've been expecting it to bring it on. 05:50.480 --> 05:52.120 What's your controversial opinion? 05:52.960 --> 06:04.040 My controversial opinion is this, that imposing S-bombs into healthcare and expecting them to take on the manufacturer role is going to lead to it breaking. 06:04.520 --> 06:12.600 And the reason being is the manufacturer has the responsibility, the ownership to maintain their ship, build them better and keep them safe. 06:13.100 --> 06:16.880 But here's the thing, we're expecting hospitals to do this. 06:17.040 --> 06:21.460 COVID-19 came in worldwide, globally, swept it, broke it. 06:21.460 --> 06:23.580 And this is something they built to do. 06:23.580 --> 06:27.760 They're supposed to deal with viruses and pandemics. 06:28.080 --> 06:39.500 So if we make cyber security of medical devices their responsibility, we're expecting them to thrive in something they're not built to do and they're not ready to do. 06:40.360 --> 06:45.180 So yes, S-bomb for manufacturers, hell yes, bring it on, they should be doing this shit. 06:45.180 --> 06:46.620 It's manufacturing. 06:46.880 --> 06:49.420 This is not a hospital function. 06:51.140 --> 07:05.780 As a biohacker that works in technology, how do you want to better integrate with regulatory folks, with political entities, with hospitals, etc.? 07:06.380 --> 07:10.700 I just want to be given the opportunity to be heard and I want to listen. 07:10.700 --> 07:14.680 I want to listen what they need to have done, what help they need. 07:14.880 --> 07:17.380 This is not a me against them. 07:17.380 --> 07:20.700 This is saying, let's put our brains together. 07:21.220 --> 07:24.060 One collective brain is not enough. 07:24.120 --> 07:26.120 We need this diverse group. 07:26.120 --> 07:29.260 And this is why us talking is so awesome. 07:29.260 --> 07:37.380 Because I never knew that patient record was as important as it is until we had the discussion and we had an argument. 07:38.620 --> 07:41.120 We had that, we disagreed. 07:41.120 --> 07:47.040 But the fact is, you showed the data, you brought the data and you changed my mind. 07:47.660 --> 07:50.300 And the thing is, we shouldn't be scared to be wrong. 07:50.880 --> 07:54.900 We should be acknowledging that, hey, this is not going to work. 07:54.900 --> 07:56.680 Or hey, we made a mistake. 07:56.680 --> 08:03.700 Because it takes a stronger entity to do that than trying to hide it. 08:03.700 --> 08:07.260 And that counts for MDM, hackers, anyone. 08:07.340 --> 08:10.040 I have big enough balls to tell you if I was wrong. 08:10.360 --> 08:12.120 Because that's the person that I am. 08:12.120 --> 08:13.400 I own my shit. 08:15.560 --> 08:17.040 How do you want to leave this? 08:17.040 --> 08:19.020 What's your message after this? 08:19.460 --> 08:24.380 That together, we can change the world of healthcare and medical device security. 08:24.400 --> 08:29.900 Because we're dealing with a legacy of devices, an ocean full of them. 08:29.940 --> 08:33.920 600,000 new implanted devices a year. 08:33.940 --> 08:36.440 They last 10 years at a minimum. 08:37.040 --> 08:37.760 Right? 08:37.760 --> 08:41.620 That is a legacy that I don't want to see increase yearly. 08:41.680 --> 08:43.700 The time for change is now. 08:44.240 --> 08:46.400 Not yesterday, not tomorrow. 08:46.400 --> 08:47.260 Now. 08:47.260 --> 08:51.680 Because otherwise, we face legacy that's going to come back and bite us in the ass. 08:51.680 --> 08:55.940 And patients like me won't have access to these devices. 08:56.080 --> 09:05.800 Because their first and foremost function is to keep us alive and give us clinical and healthcare-related support. 09:06.140 --> 09:08.380 They're not there to be secure. 09:08.380 --> 09:17.120 I mean, for fuck's sakes, if I have to tell the doctor, hold on, you need my username and password, or you need my cryptographic keys, I'll be dead. 09:17.120 --> 09:18.680 I saw that. 09:19.280 --> 09:22.080 It's in a split second. 09:22.180 --> 09:24.020 So let's get this shit right. 09:24.020 --> 09:27.900 Let's do it now before legacy comes back and bites us in the ass. 09:28.100 --> 09:34.540 What's your controversial opinion on recording as well, seeing as you're fucking throwing us all under the bus? 09:34.540 --> 09:35.860 What's your controversy? 09:35.860 --> 09:36.980 Well played. 09:38.380 --> 09:40.520 My controversial opinion. 09:41.160 --> 09:45.520 Electronic medical records are not looked at by anyone, and it's exhausting. 09:45.800 --> 09:47.820 You and I had this conversation. 09:48.660 --> 09:52.740 Everybody looks at medical devices because they're tangible. 09:52.740 --> 09:58.680 They're something you can hold on to and you can pick up off of eBay and, you know, find a thing. 09:58.760 --> 10:05.940 But electronic medical records are hoarded so intensely, and they're not in a lot of legislature. 10:05.940 --> 10:07.060 They're not really defined. 10:07.060 --> 10:08.900 They are not medical devices. 10:08.900 --> 10:16.860 And because they're not medical devices, we don't necessarily, we, the group, don't necessarily treat them well. 10:16.980 --> 10:19.980 But when you look at it, I can have a medical device that does one thing. 10:19.980 --> 10:22.200 It holds one source of information, right? 10:22.200 --> 10:29.100 Like your heart pacemaker holds your heart information, where the electronic medical record holds all of the information. 10:29.100 --> 10:36.120 So when you look for that wealth of data, and I'm going to find this one thing that's very specific, or I can find all of it. 10:36.340 --> 10:38.380 And that's what I've done. 10:38.380 --> 10:46.460 Again, I did it for so long that when people say, like, this is the most important thing, I'm like, yeah, but you're getting that information how? 10:46.460 --> 10:53.960 There's so many links into this one small piece, and just no regard to it. 10:54.400 --> 10:58.360 Yeah, but I think the problem is because we're not defining the ship, right? 10:58.360 --> 11:00.540 Because that is like the ultimate goldmine. 11:00.540 --> 11:08.520 It's not necessarily a device, but it's a container that holds everything, right? 11:08.580 --> 11:11.720 If those are the keys to the kingdom, it's the ultimate... 11:11.720 --> 11:12.440 Exactly. 11:12.740 --> 11:14.260 How does that even happen? 11:14.260 --> 11:21.880 You can have the one thing, you can have the pacemaker, but you need all of the other things to make an educated device. 11:23.040 --> 11:24.260 Educated to system. 11:24.260 --> 11:26.260 There's educated decision. 11:26.360 --> 11:34.320 There's decision support built into this thing that will say, you're going to give this person a defibrillator of some sort. 11:34.320 --> 11:40.120 Oh, BTW, did you know that this person, you can't give them this one because of whatever reason this is. 11:41.800 --> 11:43.600 It's a support system. 11:43.600 --> 11:45.180 It's a container. 11:45.180 --> 11:46.200 It does all the things. 11:46.200 --> 11:47.160 Now you've got me riled up. 11:47.160 --> 11:48.000 Thank you. 11:49.200 --> 11:50.820 It's a treasure trove. 11:50.820 --> 11:51.940 That's what it is. 11:51.940 --> 11:53.560 I've done talks about this. 11:53.560 --> 11:56.800 I can own your pacemaker and like, oh, I got a thing. 11:57.480 --> 11:59.140 It's worth how much? 11:59.140 --> 11:59.840 50? 11:59.960 --> 12:00.840 500? 12:01.160 --> 12:06.080 I can own a hospital because that's essentially what you're doing once you get the EMR. 12:06.240 --> 12:14.440 Because you get into the EMR, you get into everything else because it's all the APIs, because whatever is going on and it's just gone. 12:15.000 --> 12:17.380 And that is mind-blowing to me. 12:17.540 --> 12:21.400 But I mean, the purpose of cybercrime, right, is about money. 12:21.400 --> 12:25.040 So what can I sell and what can I keep on selling? 12:25.040 --> 12:27.960 And how can I get, you know, have persistence? 12:28.260 --> 12:28.680 Exactly. 12:28.680 --> 12:34.400 I mean, it's the product that, you know, forever paying because everyone's going to want to have that. 12:35.060 --> 12:37.280 Because now I'm upset about life. 12:38.420 --> 12:40.040 They're not even connected. 12:40.260 --> 12:46.340 So like New York does not connect to DC, which doesn't connect to Seattle, which doesn't connect to anything. 12:46.340 --> 12:54.560 So me as a human, I now have to regurgitate my whole life history of all the things that are right and wrong with me, because you don't know. 12:54.560 --> 12:56.700 I can make all of the things up. 12:57.020 --> 12:59.100 I can negate so much information. 12:59.740 --> 13:07.760 Did you know that 18% of healthcare workers indicated that for the right price, they would sell their data? 13:07.900 --> 13:08.620 Yeah. 13:08.640 --> 13:10.140 Insider threat, right? 13:10.140 --> 13:12.120 We just over, we overlook it. 13:12.200 --> 13:15.760 And there's a print mechanism on these things. 13:15.760 --> 13:17.100 You just boop. 13:18.100 --> 13:18.880 You're good. 13:18.880 --> 13:21.620 How do you feel about zero trust, Nina? 13:21.620 --> 13:23.420 Tell us how you really feel. 13:29.860 --> 13:32.240 We currently work on least privilege, right? 13:34.120 --> 13:36.800 Least privilege is still an indication of trust. 13:37.040 --> 13:39.420 It's trust, but verify in a way. 13:40.100 --> 13:41.300 Not in healthcare. 13:41.300 --> 13:42.600 We shouldn't have that. 13:42.640 --> 13:46.400 There's, this is, this is sanctified information. 13:46.400 --> 13:48.840 This is literally you in data form. 13:48.840 --> 13:49.960 And we're just like, here, it's fine. 13:49.960 --> 13:50.700 Go get it. 13:50.700 --> 13:51.340 We're cool. 13:51.340 --> 13:52.280 We trust you. 13:52.280 --> 13:55.180 You trust me because I work here, but you don't know who I am as a person. 13:55.180 --> 13:57.120 You know that I have a certain skill set. 13:57.960 --> 14:01.100 But zero trust needs to be better incorporated. 14:01.620 --> 14:11.820 It needs to be incorporated better in technology and industry generally, but healthcare needs it more because of the sensitivity and the specificity of the information. 14:12.120 --> 14:19.180 You, you roll somebody up on their labs and they're off by whatever number this is. 14:19.180 --> 14:20.440 You can overdose them. 14:20.440 --> 14:22.020 You cannot do a thing. 14:22.020 --> 14:23.240 You can treat them. 14:23.300 --> 14:25.320 You can give them the wrong blood. 14:25.600 --> 14:27.480 You, there's so many different options. 14:27.480 --> 14:31.080 You need to know that everything is, is in their place. 14:31.100 --> 14:34.420 You need to know that you can get into things and you can't get into things. 14:34.420 --> 14:37.360 And this is, this is why the hierarchy is as such. 14:37.400 --> 14:39.340 And we're not doing that. 14:39.340 --> 14:52.760 And medical is so, it's very flawed, but it's also one of the last technologies to go live with any sort of tech and any sort of security because we've had that cloak of, you know, we're cool. 14:52.760 --> 14:55.840 We're good because we are the doctors and we know the things. 14:56.280 --> 15:02.360 And if I tell you that this is wrong and this is the medication you need, you're going to trust me because you don't have that information. 15:02.480 --> 15:04.840 And you're going to trust me because I'm giving you that information. 15:05.160 --> 15:06.800 It's the same thing. 15:07.000 --> 15:16.980 And we did that Hippocratic, I Am The Calvary did that Hippocratic Oath of medical device manufacturers should have taken that Hippocratic Oath. 15:16.980 --> 15:18.960 If you read down the article, I go further. 15:18.960 --> 15:23.200 I said, the hospitals need to also take that Hippocratic Oath because that is your information. 15:23.300 --> 15:26.600 That is them holding you in digital format. 15:26.780 --> 15:28.180 What is the difference? 15:28.760 --> 15:29.720 There is none. 15:29.720 --> 15:31.360 There is absolutely none. 15:33.260 --> 15:34.420 You're sly. 15:35.160 --> 15:36.820 You knew this was going to happen. 15:36.820 --> 15:43.980 I didn't think this was going to, I thought this was going to be like, oh my God, I should, I should turn this, you asshole. 15:43.980 --> 15:46.780 I should be like, this is everybody grilling me about shit. 15:47.740 --> 15:51.060 It's us having a conversation and this is how this goes. 15:51.780 --> 15:56.820 But I like the fact that, you know, we verify but never trust. 15:57.440 --> 15:59.900 I like that about zero trust. 15:59.900 --> 16:02.300 Because for long we've done trust but verify. 16:02.400 --> 16:12.300 But I mean, do you think, I'm going to throw this out, that an APT is above attaching a medical device or implanting it into a COVID operative and sending them into a hospital? 16:12.300 --> 16:13.320 Absolutely not. 16:13.320 --> 16:14.900 Absolutely not. 16:15.460 --> 16:19.040 So yeah, we shouldn't be trusting bring your own medical device. 16:19.040 --> 16:20.460 It should not be a thing. 16:20.460 --> 16:22.040 I always love our chats. 16:22.040 --> 16:23.400 I just want to say that. 16:24.260 --> 16:27.700 So Yusef Enriquez, two sentences about you. 16:27.700 --> 16:29.080 What's your origin story? 16:29.560 --> 16:37.160 Okay, origin story, prior FDA, worked in medical devices and medical countermeasure for the FDA. 16:37.160 --> 16:43.020 And currently working with Chemical Bio Threat Reduction Agency. 16:43.520 --> 16:50.080 Okay, so all those things that you just said, what's the most interesting thing that you're working on right now? 16:50.180 --> 16:55.960 Most interesting I'm working on is using quantum dots to test for COVID antibodies. 16:55.960 --> 17:02.680 Just started working with the Aberdeen folks at the ChemBio center up there in Aberdeen. 17:03.360 --> 17:12.120 Hopefully we could start using quantum dots to test for other infectious disease and maybe explosives. 17:12.120 --> 17:18.400 Okay, if you were going to rip the guts out of healthcare, what would that entail? 17:19.320 --> 17:21.140 The data set? 17:22.100 --> 17:23.300 Expand. 17:24.320 --> 17:29.240 I think over the last 50 years, it's been 95% European white males. 17:29.240 --> 17:36.840 So I don't understand the term precision medicine, given the fact that we've been doing race-based therapy for the last 60 years. 17:37.600 --> 17:39.900 Okay, how are you going to do that? 17:40.300 --> 17:41.640 How are you going to rip this up? 17:41.640 --> 17:43.080 How are you going to change the paradigm? 17:43.480 --> 17:45.440 Well, I thought about calling Dr. 17:45.440 --> 17:52.740 Collins at NIH and tell him to stop funding all white male scientists, but that might be a little bit above his pay grade. 17:52.900 --> 18:01.180 But I truly believe that we're going to have to start building data sets from the ground up, scratch what's already there, because I think it's complete bullshit. 18:01.680 --> 18:11.340 So is your call to action that all white male clinical studies be ended and then bring other folks in? 18:11.340 --> 18:19.520 Because traditionally, there's been historic issues with people of color not being particularly keen on signing the paper of a clinical trial. 18:19.520 --> 18:26.280 So what is the best way to get those folks involved? 18:26.320 --> 18:32.240 Well, the first thing is take the bias out of the folks that's reviewing the clinical trial R01s. 18:32.240 --> 18:33.620 Okay, so how are you going to take the bias out? 18:33.620 --> 18:34.960 Because that's ingrained, no? 18:35.420 --> 18:37.380 Yeah, Dr. 18:37.380 --> 18:46.240 Collins is going to have to do a better job of hiring more African Americans, minorities, and women at the NIH, because it starts there. 18:46.240 --> 18:56.720 I mean, the socioeconomic bias that's already implanted, once they look at the application, anything that refers to lack diversity or diversity gets thrown in the trash. 18:59.360 --> 19:01.640 Is that going to solve the problem in its entirety? 19:02.800 --> 19:06.540 That'll begin some of the solving the problem. 19:06.540 --> 19:10.460 And then I think, you know, what you'll start to see is that trust will come back. 19:11.220 --> 19:13.680 Minorities will trust other minorities to do study. 19:13.680 --> 19:19.720 I raised clinical trial enrollment at the Bronx VA just because I was African American. 19:19.720 --> 19:29.180 I was able to increase trials because they saw one African American guy in the entire psychiatry department at the Bronx VA their entire time. 19:29.180 --> 19:41.900 They had veterans there that had been going to that VA for 30 years that they've never seen an African American or minority scientist asking them for their blood or asking them to do a sign up for a trial. 19:43.960 --> 19:49.800 So, from conversations with you, you have a lot of opinions about the EUAs. 19:50.080 --> 19:51.660 So, what's an EUA? 19:52.220 --> 19:54.700 What's your controversial opinion? 19:55.800 --> 19:57.760 I think I'm getting a little concerned. 19:57.760 --> 19:59.960 I think we're over about 25. 19:59.960 --> 20:02.860 I feel like from our conversations, you're a little more than a little concerned. 20:02.860 --> 20:06.280 Yeah, let's ratchet it up a little bit. 20:06.280 --> 20:15.940 I think we're in the red as far as these EUAs being approved because the confidence interval that's required is 95%. 20:15.940 --> 20:22.520 We now have EUAs, which is emergency use authorization for COVID testing, as low as 65%. 20:23.680 --> 20:26.980 So, I mean, you don't have to be a mathematician to see. 20:27.220 --> 20:29.680 That's a D on your report card. 20:29.880 --> 20:32.180 It's not even at a C level yet. 20:32.180 --> 20:34.640 And so, these are tests that's being administered. 20:34.640 --> 20:43.680 And given the report, thinking that individuals are not, doesn't have COVID when there's almost a 40% chance that they do. 20:44.700 --> 20:46.480 So, what's the workaround for it? 20:46.480 --> 20:47.800 So, they get their 65. 20:47.800 --> 20:48.380 They get their D. 20:48.380 --> 20:49.740 Do they get extra credit? 20:49.740 --> 20:50.360 Do they? 20:50.360 --> 20:51.220 Is it? 20:51.760 --> 20:53.000 What's the workflow? 20:53.100 --> 20:57.280 I mean, honestly, I think they all should be taken off if they're not above 80%. 20:57.280 --> 20:58.580 I think we're about three months... 20:58.580 --> 20:59.780 Then who does that leave? 20:59.780 --> 21:01.460 We're in a crisis right now. 21:01.460 --> 21:09.160 Again, that's where I think America has kind of took their eye off the ball the last century or so. 21:09.160 --> 21:11.240 We outsourced everything to China. 21:11.240 --> 21:14.520 That's the reason why we have slowness in testing now. 21:14.520 --> 21:16.320 We don't have enough swabs. 21:16.320 --> 21:20.020 We can't manufacture a stick with a piece of cotton on it. 21:20.020 --> 21:28.140 And so, now what we've done is we've rushed out and have all these device companies make these EUAs that are charging $100. 21:28.540 --> 21:33.500 You take almost three to four days to get a result back. 21:33.840 --> 21:37.580 And oops, it might be 65% accurate. 21:37.640 --> 21:39.360 So, you're fucked either way. 21:40.540 --> 21:42.300 So, what's your shameless plug? 21:43.380 --> 21:47.600 I mean, again, I think understandably there's only three that's met the 95%. 21:47.600 --> 21:50.120 I think they should go ahead and ramp up. 21:50.120 --> 21:53.560 The rest should be scratched unless they have significant data. 21:53.560 --> 21:55.120 How are they going to ramp up? 21:55.120 --> 21:58.000 The production line is not here. 21:58.000 --> 22:00.240 The supply chain is not here. 22:00.260 --> 22:01.300 Get out. 22:01.320 --> 22:01.920 We're America. 22:01.920 --> 22:05.340 That's not a viable answer when the whole world is in crisis. 22:05.380 --> 22:08.040 Well, we're not responsible for the whole world. 22:08.080 --> 22:09.900 We're responsible for America. 22:10.400 --> 22:15.960 And therefore, I think, you know, what has happened is America is focused on bullshit. 22:16.420 --> 22:20.980 And, you know, now we can't even supply our own medical supplies. 22:20.980 --> 22:29.080 We can't supply our own API for pharmaceutical because we've outsourced 93% in China and the drug manufacturing is in India. 22:29.260 --> 22:32.140 So, somebody's going to have to take a hit on the chin for it. 22:32.140 --> 22:34.780 But it needs to start being American-made products. 22:34.780 --> 22:43.040 So, if it's American-made products, this also indicates that there's other things in the supply chain in that just workload in its entirety that need to be changed. 22:43.040 --> 22:50.720 If we have sent so many things off to China, they have different environmental protection laws, which means we would have to change them here. 22:50.720 --> 22:54.620 So, this whole system needs to be recalibrated. 22:54.620 --> 22:55.700 How long does that take? 22:55.700 --> 22:56.720 What's the effort? 22:56.720 --> 22:57.640 What's the funding? 22:57.640 --> 22:58.900 Who needs to get involved? 22:59.320 --> 23:00.880 I don't think it needs to be calibrated. 23:00.880 --> 23:02.380 I think it needs to be detonated. 23:02.380 --> 23:06.800 It needs to be start from scratch because it's just not it. 23:06.800 --> 23:08.080 So, that's right. 23:08.080 --> 23:08.920 We have the problem. 23:08.920 --> 23:10.100 So, you're bringing this up. 23:10.100 --> 23:11.220 So, what's the solution? 23:11.740 --> 23:14.780 Solution is, I mean, again, we got to get back to manufacturing. 23:15.340 --> 23:17.020 That's the solution. 23:17.020 --> 23:24.680 I mean, we've spent more money on Pokemon Go's and other bullshit and we've not been able to shore up our supply chain. 23:24.680 --> 23:27.600 Right now, if we shut the borders down, we are dead. 23:27.600 --> 23:29.280 We don't produce enough insulin. 23:29.280 --> 23:33.660 We don't produce anything that is of necessity to us. 23:33.660 --> 23:36.780 However, we've spent so much money on other shit. 23:36.780 --> 23:39.000 I just don't see how we can sustain. 23:39.000 --> 23:42.800 We are not able to sustain ourselves right now if we closed all our borders. 23:43.220 --> 23:49.580 So, Lilly makes insulin in Puerto Rico and that pushes over here. 23:49.580 --> 23:51.260 But we're still not addressing what I just said. 23:51.260 --> 23:52.560 So, you can detonate. 23:52.560 --> 23:53.660 That's fine. 23:53.840 --> 23:59.540 But you are still not creating a chain of you've destroyed this. 23:59.540 --> 24:00.460 What now? 24:01.100 --> 24:02.720 I mean, again, we have to... 24:02.720 --> 24:03.860 How do we rebuild that trust? 24:03.860 --> 24:09.560 How do we rebuild the facilities and get the stuff to make this cotton swab? 24:09.560 --> 24:15.100 How do we get from a four-day waiting period to a four-hour, a 24-hour turnaround? 24:15.160 --> 24:16.500 Yeah, we got to shift the money. 24:16.500 --> 24:19.000 I mean, the money is being shifted to big corporations. 24:19.000 --> 24:20.720 We have to shift the mindset though first, right? 24:20.720 --> 24:23.080 I don't necessarily think the money is the... 24:23.080 --> 24:24.420 money is always the problem. 24:24.420 --> 24:26.040 Cash flows everything around me, correct. 24:26.040 --> 24:37.400 But you have to change the mindset of those manufacturers, of the people that are in that chain to make the difference before the funding is even considered. 24:38.460 --> 24:43.120 Yeah, but again, going back to the individuals that's running those companies. 24:43.120 --> 24:44.920 They're not diverse. 24:44.920 --> 24:46.200 There's no inclusion. 24:46.200 --> 24:55.220 And so, they get to make these decisions that are not relevant to the diverse population that they say their medical devices to serve. 24:55.240 --> 24:56.580 No, we're talking about COVID. 24:56.580 --> 24:58.220 We're still talking about the manufacturing. 24:58.400 --> 24:59.640 Yeah, that's what we're talking about. 24:59.640 --> 25:05.440 The manufacturing, I mean, again, name an African-American that runs a large pharmaceutical company. 25:05.820 --> 25:08.600 I'm not well-versed in the pharmaceutical companies, to be honest. 25:08.600 --> 25:09.580 I'm better with the device. 25:09.580 --> 25:13.800 Name an African-American that owns a medical device company, a large. 25:13.900 --> 25:14.580 Valid. 25:14.580 --> 25:15.740 No, completely valid. 25:15.740 --> 25:26.280 Again, when you talk about the mindset, you have individuals that's running this particular industry that pretty much only have their interest in their group, right? 25:26.280 --> 25:28.760 And so, that's where you see with the pharma. 25:28.760 --> 25:32.680 Nobody thought that it was alarming that it's 95% European white males. 25:33.280 --> 25:34.520 I think everybody did. 25:34.980 --> 25:37.480 I don't know, but the ones that do go... Oh, no, absolutely. 25:37.480 --> 25:38.540 Yes, not everybody. 25:38.540 --> 25:39.420 Not everybody. 25:39.420 --> 25:40.140 Not everybody. 25:40.140 --> 25:42.460 People that weren't involved and were like, why can't I have that med? 25:42.460 --> 25:43.680 I saw it on TV. 25:43.780 --> 25:44.660 There you go. 25:46.040 --> 25:48.180 So, what's your shameless plug for you? 25:48.180 --> 25:49.420 What's your shameless plug? 25:49.580 --> 25:58.240 I mean, again, like I said, I think for me is it needs to be understood that this is a systemic racial issue from the beginning. 25:58.480 --> 26:02.120 I don't know how to Band-Aid fix it. 26:02.120 --> 26:24.580 So, the plug would be to re-engineer the way science is being done, how the scientists are being hired at the agency, because until you have diversity and inclusion, you're going to end up with another 50 years of white, 95% European males in the drug trials trying to treat, 26:24.580 --> 26:29.320 which is not going to be the majority anymore in the next 10 years. 26:29.320 --> 26:30.820 So, what are we doing? 26:30.940 --> 26:35.400 Your shameless plug is about you, not fixing the system. 26:35.880 --> 26:37.240 Oh, my shameless plug. 26:37.240 --> 26:39.260 I mean, I don't have a shameless plug. 26:39.260 --> 26:53.520 I just want to do good science and individuals that, you know, I think what my big concern is, there's a lot of innovation going on that's not being acknowledged because of who's behind it. 26:53.520 --> 26:59.740 And I think what I've seen over my career is that we need to change that. 26:59.740 --> 27:03.240 Because again, I think all you're seeing is these Me Too products. 27:03.240 --> 27:06.360 There's no innovation being done at large companies. 27:06.360 --> 27:20.080 Money has been spent on R&D for absolutely nothing at all, because I haven't seen any value add to a lot of these products, given the fact that it's being done in a bubble by white males and white institutions. 27:20.680 --> 27:23.020 Okay, thank you. 27:23.300 --> 27:33.160 We met in Abu Dhabi on a plane and had extensive conversations about medicine, because happenchance, you are a physician. 27:33.360 --> 27:34.860 What's your origin story? 27:35.920 --> 27:42.680 So the work on what eventually became telehealth really began with a Facebook page. 27:43.100 --> 28:02.180 I, back in like 2008, thought that the residents could benefit from having a professional Facebook page, and that, you know, it's a good way to share information and can be used in a little different way than kind of just the sharing pictures and family and friends aspect of it. 28:02.180 --> 28:05.840 But the professional societies hadn't really come around to it. 28:05.840 --> 28:10.260 So really, my career changed with a slide from Queen Elizabeth. 28:10.980 --> 28:23.980 Because when I showed Queen Elizabeth's Facebook page, and that we were not, you know, adopting new technology, even at the speed of Queen Elizabeth, I really do think that that was persuasive. 28:24.040 --> 28:34.300 So I think, while I have been given a fair amount of credit for kind of ushering ACOG into social media, a lot of it was Queen Elizabeth's influence. 28:34.880 --> 28:48.860 And so the work on social media began really with a legislative interest to kind of share stories and new legislative items that were coming up and to kind of get get awareness in a way that was a little more fun and socially engaging. 28:49.360 --> 28:57.120 That pretty quickly transitioned from social media to anything that engaged with apps on your phone. 28:57.380 --> 29:04.600 And while they are very different, you know, it's different to have an app on your phone that say is a step counter from having a social media profile. 29:04.900 --> 29:11.100 There was enough of a connection through the mobile devices that social media and mobile media, you know, overlapped. 29:11.500 --> 29:22.060 And I was doing my health policy training at the University of Pennsylvania, where they very astutely had formed the Social Media and Health Innovation Lab. 29:22.060 --> 29:23.220 So I joined them. 29:23.220 --> 29:37.380 And that was really the professional intersection of studying the big data and the new types of metrics we get from things like Twitter, like tracking flu season by tweets and those kinds of studies. 29:37.720 --> 29:54.560 And from there, you know, it really has been just kind of a series of progressions where you go from tracking health information via Twitter to health information via a wearable device, which, you know, has at least a commonality of connecting through apps. 29:55.060 --> 30:12.540 And ultimately kind of landed where we are now, which is a version of telehealth that is very different from social media profiles, but it relies on things that, you know, engage through wearable devices, patient-generated data, app connections. 30:12.560 --> 30:17.220 And then like what we're doing here, which has become routine in COVID era, which is the virtual visits. 30:17.920 --> 30:20.300 And obviously it's exploding right now. 30:20.300 --> 30:28.840 So that's kind of a brief synopsis of how I went from talking about Queen Elizabeth's Facebook page to doing virtual visits around the clock. 30:29.060 --> 30:32.220 So you gave an acronym and I'm not sure if people know what it is. 30:32.220 --> 30:33.340 So what's ACOG? 30:33.340 --> 30:33.820 Yeah. 30:33.860 --> 30:38.040 ACOG is the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. 30:38.240 --> 30:42.040 So I want to dive into that because that's the kind of physician you are, correct? 30:42.040 --> 30:43.880 You deliver babies, you take care of moms. 30:43.880 --> 30:44.240 Right. 30:44.240 --> 30:51.220 So I'm a board certified OBGYN and the chair of telehealth for the professional society, ACOG. 30:51.400 --> 30:52.020 Perfect. 30:52.380 --> 30:59.920 So I think a lot of people, when they think of going to the hospital now, because of COVID, they're going in for tests and they're going in because they have COVID. 30:59.920 --> 31:08.420 But the one surgical suite that stayed open the whole time, or at least generality, stayed open the whole time was yours. 31:08.440 --> 31:13.960 So can you talk about what happened, what changed during the COVID? 31:14.420 --> 31:16.860 Just get into that. 31:17.280 --> 31:25.180 As with everything, it has been a series of moving targets and adaptions and adapting to maybe an overreaction. 31:25.280 --> 31:34.320 So a lot of it has changed, but the overall essence of it was the obvious necessity for still having inpatient care. 31:34.340 --> 31:44.540 So the recommendation has always been to come and receive your maternal care in a hospital, whether it's a delivery or a triage evaluation, management of blood pressure. 31:44.700 --> 31:48.260 In other words, not recommending going outside the hospital. 31:49.060 --> 31:56.060 And to make that as safe as possible, there were a number of new protocols. 31:56.060 --> 31:58.360 Some just limited who could be in the hospital. 31:58.360 --> 32:06.480 So a lot of it was keeping it to be just the patient and maybe one support person, which would often be, say, a spouse or a family member. 32:06.480 --> 32:16.400 Whereas the intention before COVID would have been to have multiple support people, either multiple family members or a doula or someone like that. 32:16.400 --> 32:18.120 So that initially changed. 32:18.120 --> 32:28.400 And there were some, unfortunately, kind of rigid policies that did change the birth experience and definitely changed the postpartum experience. 32:28.660 --> 32:38.480 As we've gotten better at rapid testing and symptom screening and mask wearing and PPE, those have become a little more lenient. 32:38.520 --> 32:43.260 But there still is an emphasis on getting patients in and out of the hospital as quickly as possible. 32:43.260 --> 32:53.740 So going home on day one after a vaginal delivery or day two after a c-section would be accelerated in normal situations, but it has kind of become routine right now. 32:54.280 --> 33:02.460 And then there's the whole testing element, where if you test positive, there is a whole other kind of precautionary protocol that gets put into place. 33:02.460 --> 33:07.500 And it does mean wearing more masks than you're probably used to for the patient. 33:07.500 --> 33:09.920 Definitely means more PPE for the providers. 33:10.060 --> 33:22.440 So it looks like a much more kind of medicalized version of the delivery, which is the safest thing we have right now. 33:23.000 --> 33:28.160 So you talked about social media and the way that it's working into better patient care. 33:28.160 --> 33:34.100 Are you familiar that the FDA is working on something like that, that they're bringing in all of that? 33:34.100 --> 33:35.420 Can you speak to that a little bit? 33:36.080 --> 33:39.760 So yeah, I can speak. 33:39.760 --> 33:42.260 I'm not part of that personally. 33:42.280 --> 33:44.620 So is that a call to action that you want to express? 33:44.620 --> 33:46.600 I may be expressing that for you. 33:46.600 --> 33:54.840 Yeah, it's definitely a call to action in that we need these kind of bi-directional flow of information. 33:54.840 --> 34:02.620 We need patients who can more directly interact with decision makers and with people who are making the health policies. 34:03.080 --> 34:20.420 It's a little bit different, I think, than initially you're talking about, but one of the most effective waivers during this COVID era was the allowance of different devices so that everybody can access virtual health, even if they don't have, say, some of the infrastructure that's not available in all communities. 34:20.420 --> 34:23.760 And examples of that would be like Skype, FaceTime. 34:23.900 --> 34:37.700 Most communities now, whatever the resource setting is, do have access to cell phones and enough, either Bluetooth or internet, that they could do a FaceTime visit or a Skype visit. 34:39.060 --> 34:46.820 So, what kind of interactions have you had with the security researcher community? 34:46.880 --> 34:49.180 And are you getting into that realm? 34:49.180 --> 34:50.520 Are you in that realm? 34:52.240 --> 34:53.640 We're wading in. 34:53.640 --> 34:55.600 We're probably about knee-deep right now. 34:55.600 --> 35:00.680 So, there's definitely an adult swim deep into this that we have not gone into. 35:00.680 --> 35:04.740 But even in the shallow waters, it's been very enlightening. 35:04.740 --> 35:18.480 Because what we want to see happen with this telehealth revolution is the best kind of transition from optimizing the benefits without falling prey to the pitfalls. 35:18.480 --> 35:24.320 And we know with any new technology that those pitfalls are there, often unintended. 35:24.360 --> 35:31.580 So, kind of a classic example would be any scientific discovery that, at an extreme, became very dangerous. 35:31.760 --> 35:34.800 Nuclear fission comes to mind. 35:35.080 --> 35:50.260 And when it comes to Facebook and social media, I think the extreme of that in the negative is pretty obvious right now, with all of the misinformation and all the ways that social media can negatively influence public perception of pseudoscience or influence elections. 35:50.600 --> 35:58.940 And what we want to do is harness the power of these things, because social media has also enabled Black Lives Matter and the Me Too movement. 35:58.940 --> 36:02.800 We want to maximize the good and minimize the bad. 36:03.000 --> 36:15.140 And we're learning right now what are the, you know, to switch analogies for a second, in vehicle safety, you know, what are the anti-lock brakes and seatbelts and air traffic control of telehealth? 36:15.140 --> 36:26.360 And, for example, in the kind of entry-level interaction I've had with the cybersecurity community, we don't have much training on the physician side. 36:26.380 --> 36:42.800 So, you know, when a doctor is talking about a device that might be beneficial to a patient, say like a remote blood pressure device, they probably, you know, genuinely just don't have a lot of training or information about the nuts and bolts of how that works and how safe the data is. 36:42.840 --> 36:48.940 They know to ask about it, they know to be concerned about it, but they don't have like the deeper level understanding. 36:49.660 --> 36:59.700 That's just one example of how, you know, data privacy is totally intimately intertwined with this, and doctors do have questions about it. 36:59.760 --> 37:01.800 So, I have two things for you. 37:01.940 --> 37:08.720 This year at the Biohacking Village, Andrea Downing is talking about disinformation on social media, and you should also have a conversation with Dr. 37:08.720 --> 37:11.240 Christian DeMeth and listen to his panel on Do No Harm. 37:11.240 --> 37:12.860 I can send you those links after. 37:12.940 --> 37:25.020 And the last thing I want from you is how can we as a community, the hacker community, cybersecurity community, help you in whatever next step it takes to get mid-thigh into that water? 37:25.020 --> 37:27.940 Yeah, well, exactly what you just proposed. 37:27.940 --> 37:32.500 I think we need a lot of these cross-disciplinary conferences. 37:32.500 --> 37:40.460 I think we need to be going to each other's lectures and learning each other's worlds a little bit first, and then finding out all the intersections. 37:40.900 --> 37:49.760 I do think ultimately, there's going to be a role for a lot of these conversations to take place outside the patient encounter. 37:50.460 --> 38:01.140 It's already such a short time we have to talk to patients about the things that we're trained in extensively, the immediate health of the patient right in front of us. 38:01.140 --> 38:14.980 To then dive into really complex topics about cybersecurity and patient-generated data and where that data sits and how protected it is, not only is it maybe beyond the scope of our time limits, it might be on the scope of our expertise. 38:15.600 --> 38:32.880 So I think finding a way that we can get patients the answers to those questions and get a well-informed citizenry of doctors to feel comfortable enough that they can confidently recommend the devices without having to get into all the deep weeds or deep end of the pool about exactly how it works. 38:32.900 --> 38:38.360 Finding the trusted sources to say, I don't know exactly how it works, but these guys do and we trust them. 38:38.360 --> 38:42.240 And so here's your kind of safety measures. 38:42.240 --> 38:43.620 Yet another plug. 38:43.620 --> 38:52.460 Meg Dewar is working on a cybersecurity informed consent project that would help patients and help you folks get that information to them. 38:52.460 --> 38:53.900 So this is the last question. 38:53.900 --> 38:57.100 What is your shameless plug for this conversation? 38:57.460 --> 39:06.740 My shameless plug is to have a post-COVID world that looks a lot like the current waivers and adaptations. 39:06.940 --> 39:12.260 So it doesn't mean that we have to continue all visits via Skype or FaceTime, for example. 39:12.920 --> 39:17.160 Even among the adopters, most have moved away from that already. 39:17.160 --> 39:18.700 They use things that are HIPAA compliant. 39:19.020 --> 39:20.500 It's a nice backup to have. 39:20.780 --> 39:22.920 But that's not the waiver that we're looking for. 39:22.920 --> 39:25.720 But we do need a lot of these other waivers to continue. 39:25.720 --> 39:31.080 We need doctors to see patients without, for example, a prior existing patient-doctor relationship. 39:31.080 --> 39:33.560 We can establish that for the first time virtually. 39:33.740 --> 39:37.180 We really need the cross-state lines flexibility. 39:37.740 --> 39:52.580 In fact, a totally shameless plug would be to have something akin to a national medical license, where if you're licensed in one state, you can practice anywhere, the same way that you can prescribe anywhere in the United States with a DEA number, or you can drive anywhere in the United States with a driver's license. 39:53.220 --> 39:56.040 We need payers to continue to fund this. 39:56.040 --> 40:00.560 They've been doing an admirable job adapting to the current climate. 40:00.560 --> 40:01.820 We need that to continue. 40:01.820 --> 40:14.540 And we need the people using it right now to be open to still some reining in of all the new technology. 40:14.540 --> 40:25.240 In other words, we know that things like virtual visits and online care are still prone to overuse and fraud and all the things that in-person care is prone to. 40:25.240 --> 40:36.200 So while I'm calling for many of the waivers to stay in place and not be reenacted, we will need some new things that come in and we need to be open to those so we can continue to use it safely. 40:36.440 --> 40:37.800 Thank you so much. 40:38.160 --> 40:39.740 Thank you. 40:39.740 --> 40:40.800 Hey girl, hey. 40:40.800 --> 40:43.880 Hey girl, hey, hey, hey. 40:43.980 --> 40:45.500 This is Najla Lindsay. 40:45.500 --> 40:47.880 She is on the board with us. 40:47.880 --> 40:52.860 She helps us do the things and accomplish all the things that you're about to experience. 40:53.620 --> 40:55.220 I have a question. 40:55.880 --> 40:57.780 I may have some answers, Nina. 40:57.780 --> 40:59.700 I may have some answers for you. 40:59.880 --> 41:01.040 Are you ready? 41:01.380 --> 41:02.620 I'm gonna get into it. 41:02.620 --> 41:05.020 So what's your origin story? 41:05.020 --> 41:06.520 Two, three sentences. 41:07.780 --> 41:21.060 Forensic scientist lover, wine lover, and I am here to share forensic science and information security is hand in hand. 41:21.060 --> 41:22.600 That's just, that's the bottom line. 41:22.600 --> 41:30.760 They are lifetime lovers and part-time friends right now and I need them to be full-time friends as well as the lifetime lovers. 41:30.760 --> 41:33.040 So that's it in a nutshell. 41:33.120 --> 41:38.920 I was going to ask about your shameless plug, but you clearly already got this because that was the title of your talk for last year. 41:38.920 --> 41:41.500 So hashtag go to YouTube. 41:41.680 --> 41:42.840 It's all in there. 41:46.380 --> 41:48.500 You're up and coming as a researcher. 41:48.500 --> 41:50.040 You're doing all the things. 41:50.320 --> 41:54.400 What do you need from our community to help you get to that next level? 41:54.400 --> 42:00.620 Because if anybody follows you on the Twitters, you just, it's all the time every day doing the things. 42:00.620 --> 42:02.220 How can we help you? 42:02.740 --> 42:03.560 How can we help? 42:03.560 --> 42:04.880 How can you help me? 42:05.860 --> 42:15.140 You know, share, you know, the resources that I share, share things that I'm doing with the community and reach out to me. 42:15.400 --> 42:17.360 I'm always open to have a discussion. 42:17.360 --> 42:19.300 I'm always open to learn something new. 42:19.360 --> 42:38.660 I don't know everything and I think that the community is full of experts and people that know so much that there needs to be a bridge to, you know, career transitioners like myself and, you know, recent graduates and, you know, the people that have been in the industry for years. 42:38.660 --> 42:50.720 So I'm always willing to have a conversation, talk to you, share my resources, and, you know, just be genuine and in your reach as well. 42:51.140 --> 42:54.100 Because it's no sense in being fake with me. 42:54.100 --> 42:55.340 I'm not fake with anybody. 42:55.340 --> 43:01.000 Just be genuine in your reach and reach out to me, talk to me, and teach me something new. 43:01.560 --> 43:02.880 Learn something new every day. 43:04.520 --> 43:07.500 You talked about your forensic science work. 43:07.500 --> 43:17.080 How do you see the overlap of DFIR, science, security, technology, healthcare? 43:17.580 --> 43:20.480 It's all intertwined. 43:20.600 --> 43:32.500 And I like to tell people that, you know, a lot of people that are currently studying digital forensics, they don't know that that's actually a branch and a discipline in forensic science. 43:32.760 --> 43:47.220 And once people learn and actually take into their work that this is from a scientific discipline, what you do in digital forensics can go to court. 43:47.220 --> 43:53.380 Like, you can testify based on what evidence you have processed, what evidence you have found, what story you're telling. 43:53.380 --> 43:55.700 And that could be a make or break for someone. 43:55.700 --> 44:03.540 You can wind up putting someone in jail or you can wind up freeing someone and exonerating them from a crime that they've probably been in jail for for years. 44:03.600 --> 44:10.440 And so I always like to remind people that they are together, whether you like it or not. 44:10.440 --> 44:15.160 And I think that people forget that you have to take the scientific approach to a lot of things. 44:15.200 --> 44:19.100 That scientific method, we didn't learn that just to learn it. 44:19.100 --> 44:21.860 We learned it because it actually applies. 44:21.860 --> 44:28.860 You have a hypothesis and you have to test it out, not just once, not twice, various times and with various people. 44:28.860 --> 44:35.400 Because what I get when I do it will be a different result and can be a different result from what you get. 44:35.400 --> 44:38.600 And it doesn't hurt to share the information. 44:38.600 --> 44:41.900 You're not going to lose anything by sharing what you learn. 44:42.080 --> 44:57.600 And I think that it will forever be intertwined as digital forensics gets more popular because that's also taking the turn and being the talk of the town of cybersecurity, information security. 44:57.600 --> 45:05.120 I think it's important that people remember or know, just even learn that this is a part of forensic science. 45:05.120 --> 45:07.160 This is a science discipline. 45:07.260 --> 45:13.420 And the more you think methodically about it, the better you will be as a practitioner in the field. 45:13.420 --> 45:16.980 And that's either as a researcher or if you're working full-time as well. 45:18.580 --> 45:26.100 So not a lot of people consider digital forensics in healthcare because there are no laws surrounding it. 45:26.100 --> 45:30.920 If something goes wrong, you re-image it, you keep moving, you keep going. 45:30.920 --> 45:33.960 How do you see the transition happening? 45:33.960 --> 45:34.840 Is it happening? 45:34.840 --> 45:36.000 Is it going to happen? 45:36.000 --> 45:37.160 What do you see the future? 45:37.460 --> 45:48.800 So with healthcare, I find that they're always at least five to 10 years behind on making the transition to updated technology, just in general. 45:48.800 --> 45:59.480 Just switching to have Windows 10 on all of their computer systems in the hospital can sometimes take much longer than private organizations or government organizations. 45:59.480 --> 46:04.220 And so I think that the healthcare industry is still catching up. 46:04.480 --> 46:18.800 Healthcare, a lot of people didn't think about, oh, I have to worry about securing this device and making sure someone don't try and trip it and increase, you know, let's say you take insulin, you have an insulin pump, and increase my insulin pump or, 46:18.800 --> 46:26.520 you know, mess with the anesthesiologist who is very important during surgery because one wrong dose can kill somebody. 46:26.520 --> 46:39.460 So your hospital go down and your anesthesiology equipment is on a network and somebody decides to play with it, you're just completely out of luck. 46:39.460 --> 46:55.060 So I think that as more people are aware of, you know, the biohacking village, as more people are aware of, you know, healthcare and medical device security and how important that it is to think about security at the beginning and not the after effect, 46:55.060 --> 47:00.200 I think that people will start to realize, oh crap, we actually have to take care of this. 47:00.200 --> 47:10.800 And I think if manufacturers, there's a couple manufacturers that I know that they started implementing on their websites where you can learn about stuff that has issues. 47:10.920 --> 47:20.160 And so they want to make sure that the community is aware so that, you know, they're doing, they have their methods to build in and make sure that everything works better. 47:20.160 --> 47:30.160 I think the more that people actually have conversations because as much as big and as much as cybersecurity is, they don't talk to each other. 47:30.160 --> 47:33.600 Like people within the industry and the organizations don't talk to each other. 47:33.600 --> 47:36.000 It's like a hush hush thing. 47:36.080 --> 47:39.940 And I just feel like this is actually the same thing in forensic science too. 47:39.940 --> 47:52.820 But I think that the more that you talk, the better we can come together and the better we can build these, you know, these instruments and these medical devices, because that's the only way we're going to make healthcare better for everyone. 47:52.820 --> 47:56.740 It's not about, oh, you get access to healthcare and you don't. 47:57.040 --> 48:07.940 You have to think security at the forefront and not at the, at the, at the end of it, because it actually costs you more when you think about it at the end versus with it in mind as you're doing it. 48:08.300 --> 48:11.080 So it's all intertwined, all of it. 48:11.820 --> 48:18.500 So in recent history, you were part of, share the mic, in cybersecurity. 48:18.760 --> 48:19.980 Oh yeah. 48:21.600 --> 48:25.160 So what was, what was that like? 48:25.160 --> 48:26.700 What were the outcomes? 48:27.860 --> 48:33.760 Um, that was like one of the best things that I've ever been a part of. 48:33.840 --> 48:42.380 Um, and, you know, I, when I got paired with Rachel Toback of WISP, you know, I had known of Rachel. 48:42.380 --> 48:50.440 I hadn't really talked to her as much, but I had known of Rachel because I wind up being able to receive a WISP scholarship last year for DEFCON. 48:50.440 --> 48:52.760 So that was very helpful in me attending DEFCON. 48:52.760 --> 48:56.820 And on top of that, we just clicked instantly. 48:56.820 --> 48:58.700 I learned so much about her. 48:58.760 --> 49:00.960 Um, and we put a plan together. 49:00.960 --> 49:03.800 We put a plan because, because you're, you're on Twitter. 49:03.940 --> 49:05.880 You're not necessarily doing videos. 49:05.880 --> 49:08.140 It's a tweet and you put together some tweets. 49:08.140 --> 49:09.320 We put together some tweets. 49:09.320 --> 49:14.840 We put together an action plan and just talked about, you know, what it is that I'm trying to do, what it is that you're looking for. 49:14.880 --> 49:19.860 Um, you know, certifications that you're doing and all of the like. 49:19.860 --> 49:23.980 And so we put it together Thursday night, everything was set. 49:24.300 --> 49:26.640 And then Friday, everything, I was at work. 49:26.860 --> 49:30.100 I still work in my forensic science industry. 49:30.100 --> 49:35.800 So I was at work when all of this was going on, but I knew what the tweets were because we talked through them and we worked through them. 49:36.220 --> 49:41.520 And I wanted, you know, funding for my certifications. 49:41.800 --> 49:43.680 And I wanted to attend the SANS class. 49:43.680 --> 49:53.380 And we know, you know, SANS has been, um, looked at as like one of the main industry certifications to achieve and attend that class. 49:53.380 --> 49:59.060 And so I was fortunate to be able to receive a full scholarship to attend one of their classes. 49:59.060 --> 50:05.320 I was able to get all of my certification, um, certification costs covered. 50:05.320 --> 50:14.020 And then they wind up covering all of the black cybersecurity professionals, um, certifications and trainings. 50:14.220 --> 50:29.080 And to, to still, you know, make that, you know, hey, I'm going to still get all of these people, um, make that the forefront and say, hey, I'm, I want these people to progress. 50:29.080 --> 50:30.920 I want these people to win. 50:30.920 --> 50:32.740 Um, I think that that was amazing. 50:32.740 --> 50:33.600 It felt amazing. 50:33.600 --> 50:37.700 And I was elated, um, all day at work. 50:37.740 --> 50:41.340 I was on my, I was just so elated at work. 50:41.340 --> 50:43.080 They couldn't even tell me, they was like, are you okay? 50:43.080 --> 50:47.040 I'm like, I'm not sure, but I'm here and I'm going to get my work done. 50:47.040 --> 50:48.980 But it was so amazing. 50:49.260 --> 51:04.020 Um, and then later on in the day, Rachel and I actually went live on Periscope and we had a discussion about, you know, you know, being black in the industry, um, and what it is that people can do to help black cybersecurity professionals. 51:04.120 --> 51:17.580 And so, um, that whole day was just full of adrenaline and full of, you know, happiness and gratitude, um, and people using their platform to promote other people's voices that don't typically have a voice. 51:17.580 --> 51:18.860 So I loved it. 51:18.860 --> 51:24.060 Um, and Rachel and I are still building our relationship in the background and learning about each other and things like that. 51:24.060 --> 51:27.020 And I think all of the participants are also doing that. 51:27.020 --> 51:28.720 So it was, it was amazing. 51:28.720 --> 51:34.380 I hope that it continues to grow into something much larger, um, going forward. 51:34.980 --> 51:38.600 How can the biohacking village participate or do better with it? 51:39.780 --> 51:46.780 Um, you, as a biohacking village, I think that you have to make a conscious effort. 51:46.780 --> 51:54.100 And then to some people, it may look like you're being biased because you may focus on underrepresented minorities or things like that. 51:54.100 --> 51:59.160 And I think a good way, because normally the biohacking village just does an event during DEF CON, right? 51:59.340 --> 52:10.280 Um, I think that, you know, during the year, you know, after, you know, a couple of months later down the line, do, do... Are you secret dropping? 52:10.280 --> 52:11.920 You got to cut this out. 52:12.340 --> 52:14.560 No, I'm just telling you what I think. 52:16.440 --> 52:19.300 I'm just telling you things that I think that would be helpful. 52:19.300 --> 52:29.160 You know, maybe start a partnership or a mentor program with, um, you know, some people, get people involved in, in it and promote it, you know, consistently. 52:29.420 --> 52:34.680 Um, you know, especially during, uh, Cybersecurity Awareness Month, everybody participates in it, right? 52:34.680 --> 52:35.720 Like last year I did that. 52:35.720 --> 52:40.160 I was dropping random tips of the day, like, and doing that. 52:40.160 --> 52:51.620 I think that the more that people learn that the biohacking village is out there, the more that people will want to participate and know about, you know, healthcare and medical device security. 52:51.620 --> 53:00.980 I think that is, you know, keep, you know, tweeting and sharing, you know, information and reaching out and being personable. 53:00.980 --> 53:07.200 I think that's all going to do a world of good as we continue to grow, because I'm not going anywhere. 53:07.200 --> 53:09.000 Nina, you're stuck with me, just so you know. 53:09.000 --> 53:10.460 I was never letting you go. 53:10.520 --> 53:12.080 Okay, just so we're clear here. 53:12.080 --> 53:13.560 I was never an option. 53:17.700 --> 53:20.160 So what's your controversial opinion? 53:20.880 --> 53:32.130 Whew, um, wow, you tripped me up here. 53:32.370 --> 53:34.270 Good one, actually. 53:34.350 --> 53:53.190 Um, my controversial opinion is that I, I see, I see people being performative on making sure that Black people get heard in the industry. 53:53.830 --> 53:57.910 But it means nothing, because you're not actually doing anything. 53:57.910 --> 54:00.970 And I can see right through you pretending to do anything. 54:00.990 --> 54:16.890 And I think that, you know, even with share the mic and cyber, it's, I feel like it'll be a moment in time for some people, and for a lot of people, because you have the same type of people at the top of the industry. 54:17.110 --> 54:19.570 And they have a lot of say. 54:19.570 --> 54:24.150 And it, and the industry follows a lot of what those top people say. 54:24.150 --> 54:34.450 So I think sometimes, you know, doing all of this and making sure that, you know, people get heard. 54:36.590 --> 54:40.250 Let's check back around wintertime and see what's been happening. 54:40.250 --> 54:45.910 Because I know, or I feel, that stuff's not going to look the same. 54:47.290 --> 54:49.870 So, controversial opinion. 54:49.870 --> 54:51.150 What's your call to arms? 54:51.890 --> 54:56.070 My call to arms is don't talk about it, be about it. 54:56.510 --> 55:01.030 Go make for the next, listen, we're in Rona. 55:03.050 --> 55:04.070 It's Rona. 55:04.070 --> 55:06.270 You're like, it's coronavirus. 55:06.710 --> 55:11.210 Most states, most countries are locked down. 55:12.250 --> 55:18.930 Reach out to somebody in the industry, not a white person. 55:20.910 --> 55:25.730 Not, no, no, no, not a white person, not a white male, not a white female. 55:26.230 --> 55:34.450 Somebody that does not look like you, that you've never actually talked to either, because you can tend to have a bias against the people that you've already known. 55:34.650 --> 55:36.790 And you just choose that because that's your comfort zone. 55:36.790 --> 55:39.110 No, no, no, no, no, we want you out of your comfort zone. 55:39.250 --> 55:47.590 We want you to be held accountable for your thoughts, your feelings, and your words, and your actions. 55:47.790 --> 56:02.150 Reach out to somebody, a black person, a Latino person, an Asian person, somebody not related to you in any way, fashion form that you've never talked to, and get to know them genuinely. 56:02.150 --> 56:06.030 Don't expect anything in return, nothing. 56:06.030 --> 56:11.510 I mean, not an ounce of nothing. 56:12.790 --> 56:24.490 See what happens to yourself as you choose to develop a relationship with someone with no transactional expectations. 56:24.650 --> 56:28.370 See what happens to yourself, not for them, for you. 56:28.370 --> 56:35.870 Because I can guarantee you, when you start to do stuff without expecting anything in return, you feel good. 56:35.870 --> 56:44.050 And you realize that the stuff, and the values, and the beliefs that you have now, they can change. 56:44.050 --> 56:47.070 They don't have to be there for the rest of your life. 56:47.070 --> 56:51.170 And your life's not going to end because you've changed a value or belief. 56:51.170 --> 56:52.290 It's not going to end. 56:52.290 --> 56:53.890 It's only going to get better. 56:54.130 --> 56:58.550 And if it don't get better, I'm sorry, you're not growing. 56:58.550 --> 57:00.090 And you're going to be stuck. 57:00.650 --> 57:04.630 So choose somebody you've never talked to. 57:04.630 --> 57:05.290 Go on LinkedIn. 57:05.290 --> 57:11.190 LinkedIn is the place of people just, I feel like they just Google and just reach out to people. 57:11.370 --> 57:12.430 Go on LinkedIn. 57:12.610 --> 57:13.650 Check Twitter. 57:14.290 --> 57:15.690 Check hashtags. 57:15.950 --> 57:16.970 Go on there. 57:16.970 --> 57:18.370 Go talk to someone. 57:18.430 --> 57:20.070 Build a genuine relationship. 57:20.130 --> 57:21.510 Find out about them. 57:21.510 --> 57:24.370 Reach out and take it from here. 57:24.970 --> 57:26.830 Commit to it for the next six months. 57:27.470 --> 57:28.110 I'll make it easy. 57:28.110 --> 57:29.290 I won't even say a year. 57:29.290 --> 57:30.630 For the next six months. 57:30.630 --> 57:31.470 Into the new year. 57:31.470 --> 57:32.090 Actually, it's five. 57:32.090 --> 57:34.350 Let's make it into January 2020. 57:35.110 --> 57:36.470 And see what happens. 57:37.650 --> 57:40.350 And reach out to me on Twitter and tell me what happened when you did this. 57:40.350 --> 57:41.550 Because I would like to know. 57:41.570 --> 57:42.510 I love that. 57:43.510 --> 57:44.410 That's it. 57:44.690 --> 57:48.050 I love the passion you bring to pretty much every single conversation. 57:51.010 --> 57:52.550 Let's do it. 57:53.130 --> 57:54.590 Thank you. 57:54.590 --> 57:56.130 You are very welcome. 57:56.150 --> 58:02.550 So fun fact about this quarantine is Canibal and I started cooking together on the weekends. 58:03.330 --> 58:04.830 Three hour time difference. 58:05.630 --> 58:07.070 He's Mexican. 58:07.110 --> 58:08.310 I'm Puerto Rican. 58:08.310 --> 58:11.270 We started making dishes from each other's cultures. 58:11.270 --> 58:12.430 It opened up our eyes. 58:12.430 --> 58:14.030 We're like super homies now. 58:14.030 --> 58:14.970 It's amazing. 58:14.970 --> 58:19.450 It is probably one of the best friendships I have ever cultivated. 58:19.450 --> 58:22.130 And thank you for being on here. 58:25.770 --> 58:30.330 So quick, just to get to know you, question. 58:31.170 --> 58:33.670 Two lines, one minute. 58:33.770 --> 58:35.070 What's your origin story? 58:36.210 --> 58:37.030 All right. 58:37.030 --> 58:38.370 Origin story. 58:38.450 --> 58:40.570 It's going to be a little bit more than two lines. 58:40.570 --> 58:44.130 But I started out in the medical industry. 58:44.130 --> 58:49.110 This was 12-ish years ago for a medical device manufacturer. 58:49.690 --> 58:58.430 And it's kind of how I got into medical and how I got into security where I was brought in actually more of a support role. 58:59.110 --> 59:03.030 And I noticed that, hey, these devices aren't being patched. 59:03.030 --> 59:05.790 Nobody's really taking the lead on this. 59:05.790 --> 59:09.170 So I just started doing it on top of my other stuff. 59:09.950 --> 59:12.870 And that was kind of it. 59:12.870 --> 59:20.090 At one point, it started rolling up into, oh, hey, hospitals are starting to get hit with ransomware. 59:20.090 --> 59:21.850 This is kind of a big deal. 59:21.850 --> 59:25.870 I'm like, yeah, I've been doing this for years because you guys didn't care about it. 59:25.870 --> 59:26.410 Right. 59:26.470 --> 59:27.470 Perfect segue. 59:27.550 --> 59:30.910 So you've been around the industry for a super long time. 59:31.030 --> 59:39.270 So you've seen it go from health care instantiation with technology and security to where we are now. 59:39.270 --> 59:43.370 What are the biggest differences you see and how much do we still have to go? 59:44.330 --> 59:47.370 There is still so much work that needs to be done. 59:47.470 --> 59:48.810 So, so much work. 59:50.290 --> 59:53.090 I think people are more aware. 59:53.790 --> 01:00:12.670 I'm talking about a populist standpoint, not so much the medical industry, but people are more aware of their data, the sensitivity of things, and that security is important, especially on devices that are connected to people or those people are relying on those devices for their safety and their well-being. 01:00:14.850 --> 01:00:17.370 Things were a mess. 01:00:17.610 --> 01:00:21.390 They're still a mess, but not as much of a mess. 01:00:22.190 --> 01:00:28.470 I think a lot of it has to do with, one of the things is the regulations, HIPAA. 01:00:29.070 --> 01:00:30.650 There's not enough there. 01:00:31.330 --> 01:00:36.070 Their heart's in the right place, but they have no way of enforcing it. 01:00:36.110 --> 01:00:37.790 The claws have no teeth. 01:00:38.510 --> 01:00:39.750 Claws have no teeth. 01:00:39.750 --> 01:00:42.170 That's kind of funny because it sounds like it's a cat. 01:00:43.410 --> 01:00:44.690 A healthcare cat? 01:00:44.690 --> 01:00:45.430 Right. 01:00:45.430 --> 01:00:47.590 So, I'm going to bend you on that. 01:00:47.590 --> 01:00:48.070 Okay. 01:00:48.070 --> 01:00:55.950 So, what would give healthcare policy makers, regulators more teeth? 01:00:55.950 --> 01:01:04.810 How do they, and just an extension of that, so then how do they engage more with the sec community hackers to make this better? 01:01:05.370 --> 01:01:07.950 How would you like to be engaged by these people? 01:01:07.950 --> 01:01:08.650 Yes. 01:01:09.110 --> 01:01:17.490 So, that's kind of a, there's no quick, easy answer to it, unfortunately, but this isn't a new issue. 01:01:17.550 --> 01:01:20.110 We've known about this for a really long time. 01:01:20.110 --> 01:01:34.750 It's one of those things where if we, if something were just started now, in five, six years from now, we could look back and say, oh, yeah, we still don't have a great plan, but there's something, there's at least this momentum that we can build off of. 01:01:36.910 --> 01:01:47.110 Getting some sort of enforcement policy in place, and that usually comes with auditors or someone that would like basically go to each hospital. 01:01:47.970 --> 01:01:59.670 Some sort of government funding would be helpful because a lot of the hospitals, a lot of people think that hospitals are making money hand over fist because of how much they cost, but they're just, they're trying to break even. 01:02:00.090 --> 01:02:01.870 A lot of hospitals are running in the red. 01:02:03.790 --> 01:02:05.710 And they really don't have the money. 01:02:05.710 --> 01:02:07.450 A lot of them don't even have IT staff. 01:02:07.650 --> 01:02:19.970 A lot of them outsource their IT, and it's one of those things where the doctor will call up and say, hey, I want to be able to check my x-rays or whatever from home, punch this hole through the firewall so I can get access to my machines. 01:02:20.930 --> 01:02:32.030 Having some sort of standardized IT policy for hospitals that the government can say, hey, here's a framework, you can either use this or use your own, but you got to use something. 01:02:32.650 --> 01:02:41.250 That would be a huge step forward, just having some sort of basic guideline so that the hospitals aren't fumbling around in the dark trying to figure this out. 01:02:41.710 --> 01:02:48.350 Newer hospitals tend to be better, but there's so many old hospitals that are just kind of like cobbling things on as they go. 01:02:48.870 --> 01:02:49.990 Most hospitals... 01:02:51.290 --> 01:02:51.790 What's that? 01:02:51.790 --> 01:02:58.930 Working with those legacy devices that they have to continue to integrate and continue to protect with the other things that are coming in. 01:02:58.930 --> 01:03:03.630 A lot of hospitals, especially on the East Coast, have been around since before computers were even a thing. 01:03:05.790 --> 01:03:07.410 Yeah, right, it's crazy. 01:03:07.650 --> 01:03:08.210 Technology. 01:03:08.210 --> 01:03:10.590 A lot of them are like, how do I use this fax machine? 01:03:10.590 --> 01:03:11.810 I almost took that personal. 01:03:11.810 --> 01:03:12.750 I was like, what do you mean? 01:03:12.750 --> 01:03:14.770 Are you talking about New York specifically? 01:03:15.050 --> 01:03:17.030 Yeah, especially New York. 01:03:17.370 --> 01:03:19.130 No, it's actually true, right? 01:03:20.630 --> 01:03:22.870 So you're not in healthcare anymore, right? 01:03:22.870 --> 01:03:24.410 No, I am no longer in healthcare. 01:03:24.410 --> 01:03:26.970 I've been out for maybe three or four years. 01:03:26.970 --> 01:03:34.190 So I don't know if you want to talk about the industry you're in, but how does that industry, how can that industry that you're currently in influence what healthcare is doing? 01:03:34.850 --> 01:03:40.690 So I'm a Threat Hunter Red Team for local government. 01:03:41.230 --> 01:03:51.410 And just having... so my issue with that type of work is the hospitals just need the basics. 01:03:52.690 --> 01:04:04.590 It's great that these devices on the user side have two or MFA, usually three forms of authentication in order to be able to pull meds or change access to a patient's record. 01:04:04.790 --> 01:04:08.370 But on the admin side of things, a lot of those don't have multi-factor authentication. 01:04:08.370 --> 01:04:09.650 It's single auth. 01:04:09.670 --> 01:04:13.970 So it's great that the users have to do this, but the admins don't. 01:04:14.030 --> 01:04:21.930 The technical side of things is just like, it's just oftentimes a reused password across the vendor. 01:04:23.070 --> 01:04:24.350 And I mean, pick your vendor a lot. 01:04:24.350 --> 01:04:25.810 Pretty much all of them have it. 01:04:26.910 --> 01:04:32.350 So what's your call to action for healthcare or the hacker community, whoever? 01:04:34.750 --> 01:04:36.210 So many things. 01:04:36.330 --> 01:04:37.330 There's so many things. 01:04:37.430 --> 01:04:39.690 One of them is just education. 01:04:41.330 --> 01:04:45.090 Get educated on what hospital you're going to. 01:04:45.390 --> 01:04:47.270 What standards do they have? 01:04:47.270 --> 01:04:48.870 What equipment do they use? 01:04:48.870 --> 01:04:51.890 Ask them, how is my information going to be used? 01:04:51.890 --> 01:04:53.990 I mean, as a patient, this is what you're talking about. 01:04:53.990 --> 01:04:54.270 As a patient. 01:04:54.270 --> 01:04:54.730 As a patient. 01:04:55.390 --> 01:05:04.090 As a hospital, it'd be one of those things of like, yeah, holding your vendor a little bit more accountable as to what equipment they're putting on your network. 01:05:04.350 --> 01:05:07.850 So many of them basically say, hey, we're on your network. 01:05:07.850 --> 01:05:15.290 It's up to you to protect this equipment, not we're going to harden this stuff because, you know, we don't know what's there. 01:05:15.550 --> 01:05:18.210 And every hospital is different. 01:05:18.270 --> 01:05:22.110 There's no standardized network for hospitals. 01:05:22.690 --> 01:05:29.850 I keep kind of going back to the whole standardized policy thing of this is a basic framework. 01:05:30.090 --> 01:05:32.930 You're welcome to modify this as much as you want. 01:05:33.450 --> 01:05:35.470 But these are the basics. 01:05:35.470 --> 01:05:46.030 You need to, be able to segment off some of this equipment or have a standardized 2FA or MFA policy for your internal staff and admins. 01:05:46.170 --> 01:05:50.310 And if you're not going to have your on-site IT, these are the rules they have to play by. 01:05:50.330 --> 01:05:55.390 So what if it's a baseline where people just have to meet this very small criteria to meet? 01:05:55.610 --> 01:05:58.890 And then from there they can build up, but they cannot go below? 01:05:58.890 --> 01:05:59.690 Right. 01:06:00.090 --> 01:06:05.190 Who would be the organizing body to lead that or who would be involved in that? 01:06:05.190 --> 01:06:08.530 That would seem like it'd be kind of fall onto the FDA. 01:06:09.990 --> 01:06:23.450 And there's, they have some stuff, but it doesn't really call out a basic framework or some sort of structure that hospitals can, can fall back on if they have these questions that are going unanswered. 01:06:24.850 --> 01:06:27.070 So we're almost out of time. 01:06:27.070 --> 01:06:27.650 Okay. 01:06:27.650 --> 01:06:29.850 So what's your shameless plug? 01:06:30.490 --> 01:06:31.630 I don't have one. 01:06:31.630 --> 01:06:38.270 Just, just get angry, get, get informed and like realize how like, how poorly everything has been. 01:06:38.910 --> 01:06:42.570 They're like, this is this, none of this is new. 01:06:42.570 --> 01:06:47.310 We've, we've been talking about this for 10 years and very little has been done. 01:06:47.610 --> 01:06:57.150 One, one thing I will plug is if you look up the HHS breach report, whenever there's a breach, it has to be notified. 01:06:57.150 --> 01:07:09.230 It has to be reported and you can go and you can read these reports and you can see is like, Oh, look, 10,000 records just got breached or this other, you know, CVS got breached. 01:07:09.230 --> 01:07:14.290 There was one recently, I think within the last week for CVS in one specific area. 01:07:14.290 --> 01:07:18.370 And it's one of those things where it's like, I feel like nobody's really looking at this. 01:07:18.370 --> 01:07:20.330 Think about how CVS is networked, right? 01:07:20.330 --> 01:07:22.410 You can go to any CVS and pick up your meds. 01:07:22.410 --> 01:07:27.270 So it's not just a singular, a singular one area that got hit. 01:07:27.270 --> 01:07:35.610 If you go to Google and you just search for the HHS breach report, that's a hotel, hotel, Sierra breach report. 01:07:37.210 --> 01:07:44.230 It'll take you to a page and you scroll down and you look for breaches greater than 500 or less than 500. 01:07:44.930 --> 01:07:49.330 I don't know if there's a way to display them both for what I mean, it's a .gov site. 01:07:49.330 --> 01:07:50.910 So at least you're getting something. 01:07:51.950 --> 01:08:01.690 This, so the one I was just talking about is the CVS pharmacy and that's 21,000 records or not even records, but individuals. 01:08:01.930 --> 01:08:04.130 The next one down is 25,000. 01:08:04.130 --> 01:08:11.590 The one below that for university of Utah is 10,000, you know, 78,000 for the NCP healthcare management company. 01:08:11.790 --> 01:08:17.250 These are all within the last, you know, seven to 10 days. 01:08:17.830 --> 01:08:19.050 This is a lot. 01:08:19.050 --> 01:08:24.710 And, and it just, it just scrolls every, every day or every few days, there's just another one and another one and another one. 01:08:25.090 --> 01:08:29.990 And I feel like not enough people are looking at the breach report. 01:08:30.470 --> 01:08:38.030 And if you get enough people, you get enough eyes on this report, it kind of paints a picture of this is a really big issue. 01:08:38.030 --> 01:08:43.910 And if, if we just followed some basic practices, it could really prevent this. 01:08:43.910 --> 01:08:51.810 If, and it also shows you the, the location and the type of breach, you know, hacking IT incident, hacking IT incident, unauthorized access or disclosure. 01:08:53.630 --> 01:08:56.050 Those are the ones that you see the most. 01:08:56.530 --> 01:09:02.030 The, the one at the very top for Walgreens is theft, but, and, and the one below it is loss as well. 01:09:02.030 --> 01:09:04.650 But I mean, those are, those are all preventable things. 01:09:04.650 --> 01:09:09.150 These are, these are easy things that, that can be mitigated. 01:09:11.350 --> 01:09:16.510 Basic framework, just a very basic framework of how to handle passwords. 01:09:16.590 --> 01:09:37.090 2FA has to be required for not just the medical staff, like the, the RNs getting the meds out of the machine, but the techs servicing the machines and, and the vendor companies that are putting this equipment in the hospital should have some degree of accountability for what they're introducing to the network. 01:09:37.090 --> 01:09:43.430 So we're going to see each other later because it's Friday for us and it's a cooking day. 01:09:43.430 --> 01:09:45.910 So here for later. 01:09:48.030 --> 01:09:49.110 Thanks. 01:09:50.750 --> 01:09:51.830 Later. 01:09:52.570 --> 01:09:55.390 So Sri, hi, how are you? 01:09:55.390 --> 01:09:55.870 Good. 01:09:55.870 --> 01:09:56.450 Thank you. 01:09:56.450 --> 01:09:57.030 How are you? 01:09:57.030 --> 01:09:58.270 I'm good. 01:09:58.270 --> 01:10:00.770 So tell us about yourself. 01:10:00.770 --> 01:10:03.150 Where do you work and a little bit about your origin story? 01:10:03.710 --> 01:10:04.370 Sure. 01:10:04.370 --> 01:10:04.710 Yes. 01:10:04.850 --> 01:10:09.310 I've been working on controlling pandemics since the Ebola epidemic. 01:10:09.370 --> 01:10:13.830 I got pulled into that by a complete, by almost by accident. 01:10:13.870 --> 01:10:24.450 I was at a conference, Ted Med that looked at, looking at all kinds of medical topics, but just a few days before that, the Ebola crisis was, was escalating. 01:10:24.530 --> 01:10:34.110 And the CDC director had a press conference saying this is the, at that time it was Tom Frieden saying this is the worst epidemic of his career since the AIDS epidemic. 01:10:34.110 --> 01:10:40.290 And then, so it was like, oh wow, if the CDC doesn't have things under control, then things must be pretty bad. 01:10:40.330 --> 01:10:53.330 So although we were, you know, we're having drinks at the city hall in San Francisco for the, at the conference, it was very hard to relax because we were thinking about, well, what was happening with Ebola as the whole rest of the world was worried about. 01:10:53.330 --> 01:10:57.590 So I happened to meet my, a gentleman who became my coauthor. 01:10:57.590 --> 01:11:00.750 He was a Harvard public health school professor. 01:11:01.390 --> 01:11:15.490 And it turns out I just was, I just happened to randomly meet him there and started, he told me he had a lot of experience with Ebola in, sorry, with health, public health in West Africa and East Africa and India and a whole bunch of places. 01:11:15.490 --> 01:11:18.910 So I said, wow, so you must know all about what's going on there. 01:11:18.910 --> 01:11:23.130 And so I just asked him questions and we just kept talking and kept in touch. 01:11:23.130 --> 01:11:37.550 And then realizing that there may be some ways to solve this problem in a, you know, kind of a cool headed way, as opposed to all the panic that was being, if you look at the literature at the time, there were people who were openly panicking and it was kind of a strange time. 01:11:37.550 --> 01:11:44.610 And so, so we said, we wrote some things down on paper, just started emailing a bunch of people and saying, Hey, could you try this and do that? 01:11:44.610 --> 01:11:56.810 And, you know, and ultimately about a month later, that paper, that, that, that got written into a sort of article format and we submitted it and it got published in the Lancet. 01:11:57.110 --> 01:12:05.970 And then the president of Guinea saw that and invited my coauthor to, to come advise him on how to, how to control Ebola in his country. 01:12:06.250 --> 01:12:08.390 And he was supposed to be there for two weeks. 01:12:08.390 --> 01:12:12.250 He ended up there for, for six months unexpectedly. 01:12:12.250 --> 01:12:18.470 And I was there on the phone with him almost every day, just we're working through the details of how you create a national Ebola response. 01:12:18.470 --> 01:12:27.270 So that's how I got plunged into this pandemics field just by completely a bunch of random events. 01:12:27.910 --> 01:12:31.130 So now we're in COVID. 01:12:31.130 --> 01:12:31.330 Yeah. 01:12:31.330 --> 01:12:33.890 And you have the experience with Ebola. 01:12:33.890 --> 01:12:39.150 So how is that medical data being, being taken in? 01:12:39.150 --> 01:12:40.750 How is it being allocated? 01:12:41.470 --> 01:12:42.270 Okay. 01:12:43.170 --> 01:12:43.790 So that's great. 01:12:43.790 --> 01:12:48.550 So the data is, is not, it's still not where it needs to be. 01:12:48.570 --> 01:12:56.330 And I think there's a lot of, as we know, there's, there's these big problems with the CDC and the federal government trying to gather the data from all over the country. 01:12:56.990 --> 01:13:00.490 And our testing is far behind what it needs to be. 01:13:00.590 --> 01:13:05.930 But we're probably seeing a very small percentage of the cases that are actually people are having. 01:13:05.930 --> 01:13:13.110 This is, this is a disease that has asymptomatic infection as well as pre-symptomatic spread. 01:13:13.350 --> 01:13:17.210 So we're basically only seeing a fraction of the, of the picture. 01:13:17.690 --> 01:13:20.110 And this, this is a reflected way. 01:13:20.110 --> 01:13:29.130 We know this is that if you so in other words, I think the data that we have is only a small fraction of what really is out there. 01:13:29.130 --> 01:13:37.490 And I think that's the point I'm trying to make is that we, whatever data we have is, is a tiny, tiny, you know reflection of the, of the ocean. 01:13:38.610 --> 01:13:43.430 So how is the data that we have going to influence COVID care? 01:13:43.430 --> 01:13:51.430 And then beyond that, once we get past COVID, how is this data going to influence change within healthcare as a whole? 01:13:52.510 --> 01:13:55.950 This data is already influencing, I think, in a very big way. 01:13:55.950 --> 01:14:05.850 I think, for example, you know, the like take the state of California there, the there's a, there's a metric called a positivity rate, which is the percentage of tests that get returned that are tested positive. 01:14:05.850 --> 01:14:08.350 So if you do a hundred tests, how many come back positive? 01:14:08.350 --> 01:14:20.010 On average, it's 7% in the state of California, but in parts of the state, it's actually 12 or 20% close to 10, 14, 17, 20%. 01:14:20.010 --> 01:14:21.590 Like that's in central California right now. 01:14:21.970 --> 01:14:26.230 Whereas in the, in the San Francisco Bay area, it's closer to two to 4%. 01:14:26.230 --> 01:14:29.550 So the average is not really reflecting the whole state. 01:14:29.550 --> 01:14:30.570 It's, it's really highly variable. 01:14:30.570 --> 01:14:34.990 So that people are using that data, that percentage to allocate resources. 01:14:34.990 --> 01:14:47.410 So the governor allocated $52 million of extra effort, you know, to do contact tracing and a whole bunch of things for central California based on that data, based on that positivity rate. 01:14:47.650 --> 01:14:50.250 So that's one way in which the data is really important. 01:14:50.250 --> 01:14:53.290 It gives us insight into where the problems are. 01:14:54.290 --> 01:14:59.910 So actually, I want to do current state versus future state. 01:14:59.910 --> 01:15:06.830 So current state with COVID, how is that data influencing changes in healthcare? 01:15:07.430 --> 01:15:18.550 And for future state of healthcare, what are we learning that we need to start changing in how hospitals operate, how patient care is done? 01:15:20.490 --> 01:15:21.990 Learning a lot. 01:15:22.010 --> 01:15:26.750 I think there's a probably a number of different topics that we could talk about in that area. 01:15:26.750 --> 01:15:28.170 So I could just pick one maybe. 01:15:28.170 --> 01:15:34.410 And, you know, I think one is, the other thing about this is that it's so fast. 01:15:34.410 --> 01:15:39.930 I mean, this is happening like at light speed, faster than anybody can even keep up with. 01:15:40.190 --> 01:15:42.050 So that's the other part about this. 01:15:42.050 --> 01:15:51.250 The data, there's obviously a lot of clinical data in terms of treatment of patients that people are learning about treatments on real time, which works, which doesn't. 01:15:51.250 --> 01:16:10.510 And there's a really, I think one of the examples that people point to is there's by the UK National Health Service, where they conducted a whole bunch of, they constructed a clinical trial for a large number of drugs, and they came up with dextromethazone as one that has effectiveness for treating COVID patients. 01:16:10.510 --> 01:16:21.050 And so that's an example how by properly constructing the trial, they can draw accurate conclusions and come up with solutions. 01:16:23.030 --> 01:16:33.770 So from all the information, I think you've been involved in the data couriership of COVID since it started, is that correct? 01:16:33.770 --> 01:16:34.730 The data what? 01:16:34.730 --> 01:16:39.130 The data couriership and gathering since the beginning of this, since the beginning of COVID? 01:16:39.610 --> 01:16:42.790 Yeah, that's so much the data and more the epidemic modeling. 01:16:43.370 --> 01:16:48.110 Yeah, modeling of how you can control the epidemic. 01:16:48.410 --> 01:16:49.350 Oh, perfect. 01:16:49.510 --> 01:16:51.810 Perfect segue, because that was the next question. 01:16:51.870 --> 01:16:54.290 So what is the data showing you on how to control this? 01:16:54.770 --> 01:17:01.310 What should the American society understand about how the data should influence how we're going to control this? 01:17:01.330 --> 01:17:02.510 Okay, great question. 01:17:02.510 --> 01:17:18.130 I think one of the things that we can do, so the testing is something that we have tried to do, and we are doing and continuing to improve at some rate, and it's now in full swing, and people are trying to increase testing all over the country and make it better, 01:17:18.130 --> 01:17:20.570 cheaper, faster, which is all good. 01:17:20.750 --> 01:17:22.950 It's certainly not been enough. 01:17:23.570 --> 01:17:27.910 And so that doesn't mean that, you know, we want to stop testing, we want to keep going. 01:17:28.130 --> 01:17:35.510 And that will help us find cases and reduce the burden, but we need something else to control the spread and combination. 01:17:35.510 --> 01:17:59.030 And I think we talked about this on our podcast about how combining it with masks or social protections of some kind will, and that could include social distancing or anything, would be able to bring the transition rate below one, the R0 below one, in order to stop the spread of the epidemic. 01:17:59.450 --> 01:18:20.270 And since we talked at a time, one thing that's become clear is that people are finding that the virus transmits not only through droplets, which are greater than five microns in size, but also in aerosols, which are smaller, less than five microns, even less than one micron. 01:18:20.350 --> 01:18:27.950 And the properties of these droplets are that they pass right through the cloth or cotton masks that people are wearing. 01:18:27.950 --> 01:18:44.110 So although the cotton masks will filter a certain percentage of the virus that's exhaled by the breath or incoming in the environment, these aerosols linger for many hours and they can pass right through this cloth. 01:18:44.110 --> 01:18:46.130 And so we're only getting partial protection. 01:18:46.630 --> 01:18:59.550 And so one of the things we can do, we discovered, I think this has all happened the last 30, 40 days, is that using... it's kind of like these cloth masks are like socks, and we need shoes. 01:18:59.550 --> 01:19:04.330 We need something that's going to be much better if we want to keep walking in the streets. 01:19:04.750 --> 01:19:10.590 And so the one example of that is, of course, in healthcare settings, people use N95 masks. 01:19:11.190 --> 01:19:21.430 And these N95 masks are designed to stop the aerosols, to give the shoes of the industry, except that they've been reserved for healthcare workers because they need them. 01:19:21.450 --> 01:19:28.390 But the problem is that the more the virus spreads in the community, the more cases they're going to be showing up at the hospital. 01:19:28.630 --> 01:19:36.530 So you're actually not really solving any problem by more and more people getting infected, more and more people showing up at the hospital, and even more people dying. 01:19:36.670 --> 01:19:40.750 So there are actually industrial masks that are not used by the hospital system. 01:19:40.750 --> 01:19:41.970 This is an example. 01:19:42.250 --> 01:19:43.450 This is one example. 01:19:43.450 --> 01:19:54.050 It's a NIOSH-approved N95 mask, and it could be used by essential workers or healthcare workers... I'm sorry, non-healthcare workers to protect themselves. 01:19:54.050 --> 01:20:05.530 And because these people who are exposed on a daily basis to the public and to other workers that are keeping the economy running, they are actually... they're finding that those are the people ending up in the hospital. 01:20:05.970 --> 01:20:15.090 And so, you know, people staying at home who can isolate, they're much less likely to get the virus than the people who are obviously exposed. 01:20:15.090 --> 01:20:17.570 And that obviously makes logical sense. 01:20:17.750 --> 01:20:19.650 So these types of masks. 01:20:19.650 --> 01:20:21.750 Another mask is this mask here. 01:20:21.750 --> 01:20:24.550 It's from Canada. 01:20:27.630 --> 01:20:30.990 It has an N95 filter in it. 01:20:32.150 --> 01:20:35.710 And it has... let me get the other one that I have here. 01:20:36.510 --> 01:20:43.390 This is a little bit more very industrial looking, but it's a Lastomeric mask. 01:20:43.390 --> 01:20:46.030 You put it on like this and strap it around. 01:20:46.030 --> 01:20:47.770 And these are N95 filters. 01:20:48.190 --> 01:20:52.710 But the point... the thing is, these are just like a seat belt. 01:20:52.710 --> 01:20:53.490 They're dummy-proof. 01:20:53.490 --> 01:20:54.490 They're very easy to use. 01:20:54.490 --> 01:20:59.490 They don't require this big, you know, careful fitting and healthcare training and all that. 01:20:59.510 --> 01:21:00.550 They're stretchy. 01:21:00.550 --> 01:21:02.490 And the word Lastomeric means stretchy. 01:21:02.730 --> 01:21:14.370 So that's what we can do is by wearing these kinds of off-the-shelf pre-approved masks and putting them in the hands of essential workers, I think we can make a big difference. 01:21:15.330 --> 01:21:17.050 So last question. 01:21:17.650 --> 01:21:25.390 What's your call to arms from the security research community, from healthcare, from the American population? 01:21:26.370 --> 01:21:27.890 I call to arms. 01:21:27.930 --> 01:21:32.490 I think right now... I think I already sort of discussed a little bit more. 01:21:32.490 --> 01:21:36.630 I think essential workers need these masks, these N95-capable masks. 01:21:36.630 --> 01:21:37.050 Without that... 01:21:38.490 --> 01:21:50.730 until this... I think that's really the number one thing we need to get done right now, is put them... protect the essential workers so that they don't spread the disease and get sick and bring it home to their families. 01:21:51.410 --> 01:21:55.930 And I think that would be the number one thing that would... 01:21:55.930 --> 01:22:00.110 Thank you, Sri, from patientknowhow.com. 01:22:00.110 --> 01:22:03.230 So go check that out for more information on everything that he's just talked about. 01:22:03.230 --> 01:22:04.130 Thank you so much. 01:22:04.130 --> 01:22:04.910 Thank you. 01:22:04.910 --> 01:22:21.950 So for everyone that doesn't know, this is Josh, our recording producer for this year's virtual conference, and he literally just got told that he is the next interview for this keynote. 01:22:21.950 --> 01:22:23.950 So let's all welcome Josh. 01:22:25.050 --> 01:22:36.410 And just to be clear, he does not work in the cybers, but the reason I wanted you here is literally that reason. 01:22:37.510 --> 01:22:41.290 You've recorded... I think there's one more talk left. 01:22:41.290 --> 01:22:45.990 You've recorded 95% of the talks that we've had so far. 01:22:47.490 --> 01:22:49.210 How's your brain? 01:22:49.330 --> 01:22:59.510 It is really full because I did not have any understanding of this field before, and I just watched like 20, I think 28 lectures or seminars or whatever we call them. 01:22:59.570 --> 01:23:04.750 And I'm just the type of personality that if I'm watching something, I'm really paying attention to it and trying to figure it out. 01:23:04.750 --> 01:23:08.130 So it's kind of bursting at the moment. 01:23:08.910 --> 01:23:15.850 So from all the talks you've heard, where in life are your concerns for healthcare? 01:23:16.470 --> 01:23:23.270 Well, the massive lack of any type of cybersecurity at many HDOs is pretty bad. 01:23:23.690 --> 01:23:37.550 Personally, I'm going to be working at a small mental health clinic in a few weeks, and I'm sure that I'll be asking them a lot of questions about what their cybersecurity is, especially since we're delivering all of our services over telehealth. 01:23:37.570 --> 01:23:39.650 So what are the concerns for that? 01:23:40.210 --> 01:23:52.430 But I also really enjoyed Yusuf's talk about representation in medical studies, and I think that's super important in research, coming from, again, studying social work. 01:23:52.570 --> 01:23:56.470 So coming from that background, that's also really important now, especially now when we see such 01:23:59.490 --> 01:24:02.730 dramatic demographic distribution of COVID cases. 01:24:05.850 --> 01:24:07.190 What are your takeaways? 01:24:07.190 --> 01:24:11.670 What should we be working on as a security community? 01:24:12.290 --> 01:24:16.850 What's your greatest concern that you think we should get to straight away? 01:24:16.850 --> 01:24:28.950 Well, I thought Sri's takeaway on getting masks to essential workers seems like the most urgent takeaway from any of the talks now, just because that specifically saves lives. 01:24:28.950 --> 01:24:32.090 But I don't think that's really cybersecurity, so I don't know if that really answers it. 01:24:32.170 --> 01:24:35.390 It's part of the maker space, part of it. 01:24:36.210 --> 01:24:59.470 So then if we're going to go back into the security side, being that you've heard 28 intense talks, and I'm not sorry for that, and you're going to go into social work, and you have an understanding, you very likely have a better understanding of how healthcare works now and the security around it, 01:24:59.470 --> 01:25:03.670 more so than a lot of other patients out there. 01:25:03.750 --> 01:25:10.350 As a patient, as someone going into the hospital, what's your takeaway? 01:25:10.450 --> 01:25:15.550 What's your greatest need now as a patient walking in? 01:25:15.550 --> 01:25:18.910 Well, I've never liked to go to the hospital, and I sure don't now. 01:25:18.910 --> 01:25:36.570 But if I did, I think I would just make sure that either myself or a companion who was with me double-checked that whoever was treating me or administering medication or other treatments has my correct record and that the information is correct, that my blood type is correct, 01:25:36.570 --> 01:25:37.250 things like that. 01:25:37.250 --> 01:25:42.290 I would just double-check things, which I always cross-examine a doctor when I talk to them anyway. 01:25:42.310 --> 01:25:44.910 And I think that being an informed patient is really important. 01:25:45.090 --> 01:25:52.010 So I think that the potential for accidental mishaps is probably the thing that would concern me the most. 01:25:54.590 --> 01:25:58.150 How do you think our community can engage more? 01:25:58.970 --> 01:26:00.090 You know what? 01:26:00.090 --> 01:26:01.270 Not even our community. 01:26:01.270 --> 01:26:03.930 How can your community engage more? 01:26:03.990 --> 01:26:05.270 What's my community? 01:26:05.270 --> 01:26:06.550 What is your community? 01:26:06.570 --> 01:26:10.770 My community right now is my son, my wife, and my dog and me. 01:26:10.850 --> 01:26:17.910 Okay, so how can your community engage more in the healthcare security side of the house? 01:26:18.550 --> 01:26:21.770 Wow, I'm not sure I have an answer to that. 01:26:21.790 --> 01:26:22.270 Okay. 01:26:22.270 --> 01:26:36.650 I mean, I'll be talking to people at the clinic and so forth and people that I, you know, study with in Social Work school and professors for all my classes moving forward now for the next couple years because I have attended this conference as the video producer. 01:26:37.250 --> 01:26:44.730 So I think it would probably be in the form of conversations with people, you know, in the Social Work field from my perspective. 01:26:46.350 --> 01:26:51.730 What questions do you have for the security folks, the biohackers? 01:26:51.730 --> 01:26:53.390 I think I did have a question. 01:27:00.250 --> 01:27:01.290 Societal change. 01:27:01.290 --> 01:27:02.650 I mean, changing social policy. 01:27:02.650 --> 01:27:16.470 One thing I do know from studies and from just a career in journalism is that changing social policy in the United States, even when we're at a World War II level event like we're having right now with the coronavirus, is still tremendously slow. 01:27:18.150 --> 01:27:37.570 I think that, and this kind of goes back to the other question about outreach, I think that maybe people in the community need to be doing more outreach through people that they know, whether it's on, you know, probably on social media, just to sort of raise questions and try to stimulate some dialogue about what people should be, 01:27:37.570 --> 01:27:41.010 what regular people should be prioritizing in this situation. 01:27:41.010 --> 01:27:48.510 And, you know, I mean, it's going to come down to who people vote for in November, but it's also, it also comes down to like, how are you going to spend your time online on social media? 01:27:48.610 --> 01:28:00.490 You know, whether it's, are you going to be sharing memes or maybe having a substantial conversation with somebody in the community who might actually have some suggestions for how to improve the situation. 01:28:01.150 --> 01:28:08.210 I know a few people, just by virtue of living where I do, it's a very IT heavy, you know, neighborhood. 01:28:08.410 --> 01:28:16.630 And we have people who've been building respirators in their, or ventilators in their rooms, or designing software for it, or, you know, building masks and things like that. 01:28:17.350 --> 01:28:19.470 So I think that kind of community outreach is really important. 01:28:19.470 --> 01:28:27.050 I think that, you know, that is maybe the type of thing we should be using social media more for these days than spreading bad information. 01:28:28.230 --> 01:28:33.290 So I wanted to make sure people knew who you were, because thank you so much for being part of The Village this year. 01:28:33.290 --> 01:28:38.770 There's so many people that are involved that don't get the accolades that they need. 01:28:38.770 --> 01:28:41.070 So thank you everyone that I interviewed. 01:28:41.070 --> 01:28:44.690 Thank you for trusting me enough to come in cold. 01:28:44.690 --> 01:28:48.470 I want to thank the organizers for this year. 01:28:48.470 --> 01:28:50.770 It was, it was a work of love. 01:28:50.770 --> 01:29:02.030 And thank you to Beau, Sidney, Andrea, Bill, Najla, the volunteers, the sponsors, the device folks that are working with us. 01:29:02.030 --> 01:29:04.730 We appreciate you attendees so much. 01:29:04.730 --> 01:29:06.130 Watch this space. 01:29:06.130 --> 01:29:06.850 Enjoy the show.