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Welcome to Career Hacking Village.

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My name is Kathleen Smith.

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I'm one of the Village team members.

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We're so happy that we finally have been able to bring a Career Hacking Village to DEF CON.

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As we know, many of us are looking for a job and by recent studies, there were over 43% of people said they did not know how to find a job.

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So I'm very thankful to invite Kirsten Renner as one of the best recruiters in our community to sort of share some of the best practices, especially now.

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Please remember that we'll be doing discussion in Discord.

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We also have resume review and career coaching going on from 10 to 1700 on Friday and 12 to 1600 on Saturday.

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So without further ado, Kirsten.

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Hello, DEF CON.

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I know that we all wish we were in Vegas right now, but let's make the best of this.

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This is actually the first summer in 11 years that I am not there doing summer camp.

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I know that for a lot of you, it's 20 or more years.

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So this is crazy, but let's get through it and make the best of it.

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So this is my talk, but I still need a job.

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So this will be a conversation for the active candidates and also, and mostly probably, for the passive candidates as well.

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So I'm going to also offer the perspective of how this can be helpful, not just for candidates, but if you are trying to fill a job or if you have in the past, if you will in the future, this is going to be relevant to you too, and here's why.

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Think about how this is going to offer to you, noticing what are the challenges that candidates are facing so that you can help make things better for them.

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So we will go through initially what's new in our current times.

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Although I will say we're so far into this that we're probably all sort of getting to the point of being an expert at all the new things that we have to deal with, but I will touch upon them quickly.

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I will go through some tips.

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One thing that I want to do differently is show you how to hopefully take advantage of and use to your advantage how the new circumstances can actually have a positive twist for you as well.

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And then we will go through what I like to call the fundamentals, the things that all candidates face and talk about on a regular basis.

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So who am I?

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As Kathleen mentioned, I am Karsten Renner.

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I am the Director of Recruiting at Novetta, an advanced analytics and cybersecurity firm.

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I'm a college dropout, started in software engineering, and then I went into IT.

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And how did that lead to recruiting?

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Well, when I was building help desks and managing them, that's my favorite part, was building the teams, finding the people to bring on to the teams.

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And so here I am 20 years later, random personal thing.

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I run ultras.

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Ultras are anything longer than a marathon.

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I've done about a dozen of them in the last 10 years.

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And I have a almost disturbing love for crime TV.

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Also a proud Army mom over the last week.

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So I'm gonna talk to you from a few different perspectives.

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So I have seen and heard and read many intelligent individuals offering useful advice from their perspectives on how to best find a job in our community specifically.

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And they're coming from the perspective of having been a candidate, or a hiring manager, or in some cases, a recruiter.

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So I just happen to have been all of those things, and I still am a couple of those things.

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So I'm hoping that I can take my 20-ish years of doing this and offer to you the things that I have seen definitely work and definitely not work, and make those into tools that are gonna work for you.

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So speaking of perspectives, the survey that you see on the screen is something that I put up on Twitter and LinkedIn.

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And anytime you see a survey in my slides, that's where I got it from.

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Otherwise, I would have stated the source.

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So I feel like it was a few months ago, I heard, and this is not an exact quote, but Alyssa Miller was talking about a survey that she had put out for a talk that she was doing, I believe at RSA, which she noted.

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And she said something along the lines of that there's a certain amount of responses that constitutes data, maybe that makes it scientific.

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So this is not thousands or tens of thousands of responses.

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This is probably hundreds of responses.

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This is just little snapshots.

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This is before I started to do, or to put together the talk submissions that I was gonna do for this year.

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I wanted my community, the people that I speak to, the people that I interact with in the community to tell me what they face the most.

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What are they looking at the most?

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What do they want me to focus on and talk about?

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So that was the purpose of these.

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So again, I was actually a little bit surprised when I was looking at this.

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Are you actively looking?

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Are you passively looking?

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Where are you coming from, from a candidate's perspective?

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And I did get Dirk Vader's permission to quote him.

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Apparently when he responded to the survey, he responded with the comment that it is really good.

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And I couldn't come up with a better way to say it.

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So I asked him if I could quote him.

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He said, yes, it is really good career hygiene to always be at least kind of keeping your ears and eyes open, right?

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That's how we do this.

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And as a random side note, technically, I met the CEO of my current company when I was happily employed and had no interest in ever looking for another job ever again.

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I was gonna retire from the job where I was.

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So I think that's just a really good testimony to why you should always keep your eyes open.

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And we met at the Mandalay Pool.

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Yay, DEF CON.

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Okay, so things are kind of different now, aren't they?

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Interviews are happening differently.

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Everything's happening differently.

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So we're gonna go pretty quickly through some of the tips and reminders.

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And I am Italian, so I will tell a funny story or I find it funny.

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I'll probably laugh at myself as well.

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But before we go through the tips, I want you to know that one of the things that I am very passionate about when it comes to recruiting and everyone that works for me, all the recruiters that work for me will tell you, this is how business is done.

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You have to treat your candidates like they are the most important thing.

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The candidate experience is the basis upon which all the processes that I design and implement and analyze are based on the ideal candidate experience.

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So when I did an iteration of this presentation at B-Side San Antonio a few weeks ago, people on Discord were commenting while I was giving the presentation as opposed to reporting it the way I am now.

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And they were shocked.

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They were shocked when I said that the recruiters should always make you feel like they are your advocate and they care about you.

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And this is about you, the candidate.

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It shouldn't be shocking to you.

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It upsets me that it is shocking and we can make this better, okay?

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So we together will make this better.

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Keep in mind that throughout your experience as a candidate, one thing that is really an advantage to you is that your future employer, which is everyone that you're interviewing with and everybody that you're talking to, is gonna reveal to you in all likelihood what it will be like to work for them,

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I believe.

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Right?

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And on the other hand, as a recruiter, the way that you're behaving as a candidate is going to give me a little view into what it's like to work with you, right?

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So let's be kind both ways.

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Let's be reasonable both ways.

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Again, keep in mind, if they aren't flexible, if they aren't accommodating, if they won't give you a break and let you be a human and meet you halfway, what's it gonna be like to work there?

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So keep that in mind while you're facing challenges in our current environment.

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So let's just go through a couple of the pointers.

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I, since this is recorded, you can take a screenshot of this.

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You can save it.

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I won't read it all verbatim.

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However, test, test, test.

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I logged in eight minutes early for this recording.

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And guess what?

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I had to fix some things.

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Some things weren't working.

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So test your stuff, right?

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Test your camera, test your microphone, test everything.

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I will also tell, here's a funny story.

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When I was presenting at the Many Hats Club Isolation Con earlier this year, my first ever virtual presentation, by the way, I logged in to Green Room and Ray Redacted was there and he said, let's test it out.

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Let's see.

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So many of us will have many iterations of our browsers open at one time with 10 or 15 tabs per browser at one time.

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Let me tell you something.

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Close all that stuff.

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Close all the things.

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So many things can happen.

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My company is a Google shop.

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So if I had any of those Google windows open right now, while I'm trying to do this via Zoom, the camera's gonna get confused and it's gonna say, who's trying to use me?

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And it's never gonna work, right?

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You may not even realize that some minimized window is stealing your camera.

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So very important.

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Back to the Ray story.

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Don't just close the windows, close the document.

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When I shared my screen with him as a test, guess what the first thing that popped up on his screen?

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I couldn't see it.

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So a lot of us will have many monitors open at once as well.

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You don't know what you have minimized.

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You don't even remember.

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It was my credit report.

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I gave my social security number, date of birth, credit report and credit explanation to a hacker, just like that.

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So close all the things.

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So when I say close all the things, by the way, I get the song, hack all the things stuck in my head and then I sing close all the things, but I won't sing for you today.

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I'll go through a few more things.

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Look out for distractions.

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My dog right now is about a foot away from me.

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He's always about a foot away from me.

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If anything happens, he will start barking, okay?

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Notice there's a glare on my glasses right now.

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So do as I say, not as I do.

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My dog's in the room, my glasses have a glare on them, but notice things like that.

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Notice what's going on in the background.

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If I were to take my screen down, you would see my bulletin board and it has a lot of interesting things on it and that would distract you.

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So if you're going for your virtual interview, just be reasonable and be aware of what could be distracting.

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I turned off all my phones, which by the way is hard for me because my son is at basic training and I'm trying to have my phone ready for when he calls, but turn off all your phones, turn off all the things.

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So be aware of noises that you make.

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Don't sip on your coffee, just wait until it's over.

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That can sound really gross, especially if whoever's interviewing you has headphones on.

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If I start shifting the papers around on my desk, does that sound shitty?

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Don't do that.

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Don't shift things around.

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Don't hold your pen in your hand like I am right now.

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Don't do what I'm doing.

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All right, another thing you can do, and actually I'll give Ray credit for this one too.

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I won't tell you what he calls it, but look into the camera.

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So I personally am distracted right now because I can see myself, I can see the slides, I can see my notes, but try to look into the camera to make this more engaging.

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It thinks that I can't see all of you.

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I love you, wish I could see your faces, but look into the camera.

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It makes you more engaging.

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Okay, so one size does not fit all.

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What do I mean by that?

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In my upcoming slides, when I go through the fundamentals, I'm going to be mentioning to you what I think are gonna be useful ways for you to be your own best advocate and be successful as a candidate.

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Are all the things gonna fit all the people all the time?

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Surely not, right?

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Because we already covered that many of you are in different stages.

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So frankly, if you're in the, I don't have a job, I'm trying to keep the lights on, I'm trying to get a paycheck, you're gonna have different standards and perspectives that are gonna make you make different decisions during your candidacy journey.

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And all of us, the best of us, a lot of us have found ourselves at times unemployed, not by choice, right?

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It's happened to me, and guess what?

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I had to take the first thing that came along so I could pay my bills at that time.

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So that's another stage that you could be in.

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And that's another stage that you could be in throughout your career.

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So just keep in mind that I'm offering to you different tools that'll make sense at different times.

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So my recruiting team, where I currently work, is not part of HR, and I'll tell you why.

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We're part of operations.

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And this is something that I always hoped I would be able to do, and I'm thankful that I can now, is be part of operations so that we're not working against our customers, right?

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Because if the talent that works at the company is just as much of a tool, commodity, if you will, as the hardware, as the software, then in fact, recruiting is part of the operations of that company, right?

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To provide the services, to provide the software or the products or whatever it is, you need the right tools.

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People are tools in this instance, in this metaphor.

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So when I look back at my very brief time of being a software engineer back in the early 90s using Visual Basic, as a software engineer, when you're trying to solve a problem, what did I do to solve the problem?

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You do intakes.

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You do intakes for the purpose of what?

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Defining requirements with all of your stakeholders, with your customers and so forth.

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Then you do what?

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You plot and you plan and you whiteboard and you try to come up with a strategy and you implement and you test and you analyze, rinse, repeat.

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That's also recruiting when done properly.

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Just listen to me.

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I'm going to do what as a recruiter?

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I'm going to talk to the, I'm gonna intake with the candidates, make it about them, figure out what their requirements are, preferences, requirements, and go rank those requirements, right?

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I'm gonna find out what's most important.

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I'm gonna do a proper write-up.

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I'm gonna deliver that to the customer, in this case, being the hiring manager, okay?

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I'm also, as a stakeholder, a stakeholder is also your customer, and that would be the hiring manager.

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So think of the recruiter as an engineer in this case, or as a hacker, if you will, because what they're gonna then try to do, and I don't mean hacker in the sense of, you know, people think of social engineering and manipulating and being tricky and crazy.

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I'm not thinking about that.

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What I'm thinking about is understanding the machine of the human, getting to know them, finding the requirements from each individual.

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Every single one of them is different.

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The hiring managers are different.

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The candidates are all different, and then finding the right match.

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So it's not so much hacking, manipulating, that sort of thing.

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It's not social engineering.

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It's really engineering.

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It's really designing and really finding the solution that will make the proper match between those two parts.

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To get them all the way to the finish line.

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So let's talk about item number one as one of the areas people want help with.

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They want help.

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I said, what do you need the most help with?

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Is it searching?

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Is it finding?

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Is it resume writing?

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Which I thought, and I used to always hear, was the big problem, but they said networking.

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I posted my very first job opening, printed it, faxed it to a newspaper, a paper newspaper.

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This is when the internet was, what a thought.

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And we've come a long way since then.

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Let's talk about what we can do in the networking area.

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We all know about job boards.

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I'm not gonna list everything on here.

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I am not here, oh, by the way, to promote or dox anything that I have listed here that is a product.

212
00:19:29,810 --> 00:19:31,310
I put that out there.

213
00:19:31,310 --> 00:19:34,430
But I will talk about how some of them are useful.

214
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:35,750
All right.

215
00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:43,690
And everybody knows about job boards, but you may or may not know about state employment sites.

216
00:19:43,690 --> 00:19:46,590
And here's the reason I'm going to mention that to you.

217
00:19:46,910 --> 00:19:50,650
If you go, every single state has one, promise.

218
00:19:50,770 --> 00:19:55,790
Now, because they're local government municipality run websites, they might suck.

219
00:19:55,790 --> 00:19:57,830
They might not be user-friendly.

220
00:19:57,830 --> 00:19:59,990
They may not be easy to get your way around on.

221
00:19:59,990 --> 00:20:00,970
However, they are there.

222
00:20:00,970 --> 00:20:02,550
They are there and they are listing.

223
00:20:02,550 --> 00:20:05,770
They are supposed to list every opening.

224
00:20:05,770 --> 00:20:07,450
And here's how that works.

225
00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:13,070
All the companies that are hiring probably have an applicant tracking system.

226
00:20:13,070 --> 00:20:21,370
And they have scraping tools that are happening in the background and that are delivering those job openings to all the state employment boards.

227
00:20:21,570 --> 00:20:30,030
The reason that this can be useful to you, and when I did this talk in Tampa in person, I said, let's do an experiment.

228
00:20:30,030 --> 00:20:31,650
Everybody whip out your phone.

229
00:20:31,650 --> 00:20:33,250
So do this later if you want.

230
00:20:33,250 --> 00:20:34,330
Whip out your phone.

231
00:20:34,330 --> 00:20:46,730
Go find either your state employment job board or the state that you want, that you're targeting, that you want to move to or that you're interested in and search around and see what's posted.

232
00:20:47,210 --> 00:20:48,630
And you know what you're going to find out?

233
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:53,450
That there's jobs that you had no idea that that company was hiring in your state.

234
00:20:53,650 --> 00:21:04,710
In fact, in our current environment, you are more likely to see jobs that you never knew were available where you are because they're available virtually now.

235
00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:06,190
So enough about that.

236
00:21:06,330 --> 00:21:08,290
No, I'm not getting paid by the state government.

237
00:21:08,290 --> 00:21:09,390
Why didn't you know that?

238
00:21:09,390 --> 00:21:12,630
People may not realize that that's available.

239
00:21:13,930 --> 00:21:15,850
So please, here's another thing.

240
00:21:15,850 --> 00:21:23,750
Actually, somebody split up in my last talk and told me I was, last in-person one, told me that I was incorrect.

241
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:26,130
But in this case, I'm not.

242
00:21:26,130 --> 00:21:27,290
Don't pay.

243
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:30,570
Don't pay anyone for anything.

244
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:37,750
Sorry, people who get paid to do stuff, but there's way too many people willing to help you for free.

245
00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:43,250
Way, way, way too many people willing to help you for free with your resume, with your interview skills.

246
00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:45,430
It's happening right now here today at DEFCON.

247
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:47,030
It happens at all the B-sides.

248
00:21:47,030 --> 00:21:48,410
Thanks, Kathleen.

249
00:21:48,570 --> 00:21:53,750
There are people who will help you learn how to interview better.

250
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:58,410
There are people who will help you write your resume better, okay?

251
00:21:58,980 --> 00:22:07,850
In particular, one of the things listed on this slide says, hey, user, do you want to be a premium user?

252
00:22:07,850 --> 00:22:12,650
Pay me lots of money, and then the recruiters will be able to find you better.

253
00:22:12,770 --> 00:22:21,610
Actually, there's four or five people listed on this site who probably are mad because, or frights, because they want you to pay as a user.

254
00:22:21,610 --> 00:22:22,970
Don't do it, and I'll tell you why.

255
00:22:22,970 --> 00:22:27,750
Because the recruiters, because the companies who are hiring are already paying the money.

256
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:37,990
Lots and lots and lots of money to find you, regardless of your account, regardless of whether or not you have one, and certainly you don't need a premium one.

257
00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:38,950
Promise.

258
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:40,810
I just don't want you to waste your money.

259
00:22:40,810 --> 00:22:42,590
But you can if you want to.

260
00:22:42,730 --> 00:23:01,030
So I haven't recruited in a while, excuse me, but I know that pretty much all recruiters have a LinkedIn account, and we will get to how to communicate with them through that, and most of them have all of the ways that you can connect to them open as well.

261
00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:06,070
I know it's hard right now, but conferences are amazing.

262
00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:07,670
I can't speak enough about it.

263
00:23:07,670 --> 00:23:13,350
I can't tell you how much they have been valuable to me in well over a decade.

264
00:23:13,870 --> 00:23:26,750
The greater part of my success, and I'm a pretty successful recruiter, is through the conferences, through the community, and through networking.

265
00:23:26,750 --> 00:23:38,010
Not just the happy hiring hours and all that junk, but the industry conferences in particular are the most valuable.

266
00:23:38,010 --> 00:23:47,470
And if you have the opportunity ever to volunteer at one of them, I promise it's going to be multi-fold beneficial to you.

267
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:51,870
It will be so advantageous to you to be a volunteer.

268
00:23:51,870 --> 00:23:59,270
You will learn, and you will grow, and your network will flourish when you volunteer in any way that you can.

269
00:23:59,390 --> 00:24:01,390
So raise your hand, volunteer.

270
00:24:02,830 --> 00:24:04,670
Okay, so real quick about this.

271
00:24:04,670 --> 00:24:07,010
You may or may not be able to see these images.

272
00:24:07,010 --> 00:24:09,930
I put through them together very, very quickly.

273
00:24:10,210 --> 00:24:14,310
I hear you when you say, the recruiters are horrible.

274
00:24:14,390 --> 00:24:15,070
They're horrible.

275
00:24:15,070 --> 00:24:21,430
They reach out to me, and they say horrible things to me, and they just say things that make no sense, and why are they asking me all these questions?

276
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:22,290
I get it.

277
00:24:22,290 --> 00:24:25,930
I'm going to talk to you about two different perspectives here real quick.

278
00:24:26,410 --> 00:24:30,410
The top is a quick snapshot of my LinkedIn.

279
00:24:30,430 --> 00:24:38,210
My LinkedIn says, oh, by the way, if you're a recruiter, and I don't know you, I won't accept your connection request.

280
00:24:38,210 --> 00:24:39,710
P.S., I'm not looking for a job.

281
00:24:39,710 --> 00:24:41,450
It says it right there.

282
00:24:41,450 --> 00:24:47,330
However, you can also see this dude reaches out and says, do you want to recruit for me?

283
00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:49,770
So I get it, buddy.

284
00:24:49,770 --> 00:24:50,890
You're doing your thing.

285
00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:53,330
My recruiters do their thing as well.

286
00:24:53,330 --> 00:24:58,670
However, I also hear a lot of you saying, or I see a lot of you saying, are you serious?

287
00:24:58,670 --> 00:25:05,410
You just asked me if I wanted to be a Java developer, and I'm a CTO, which is kind of like that, right?

288
00:25:05,410 --> 00:25:09,310
No, I don't want to stop being a director and go source for you.

289
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:11,310
I get it.

290
00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:12,090
It happens.

291
00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:13,010
I'm sorry.

292
00:25:13,010 --> 00:25:22,770
But it's also an opportunity, and this could be an opportunity, even if I hadn't time, for me to talk to this person and to say, you know what?

293
00:25:23,530 --> 00:25:26,190
You'll notice that, no, I'm not looking.

294
00:25:26,410 --> 00:25:30,810
However, I do know somebody who is, or maybe you should look in this direction or that direction.

295
00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:36,970
So everything's always an opportunity to network and to help others as well.

296
00:25:37,130 --> 00:25:39,890
Also, real quick snapshot down here.

297
00:25:39,890 --> 00:25:52,470
It's 15 or so people who are, all they said to me in my DMs is, hey , and that's all they said.

298
00:25:53,050 --> 00:25:56,050
Sorry, not answering you.

299
00:25:56,050 --> 00:26:08,890
So I'm not saying you have to tell me something super clever or write a whole dissertation or anything crazy like that, but you have to compel the people you're reaching out to to take the extra step.

300
00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:12,410
I heard, I read, you have three to five seconds.

301
00:26:12,410 --> 00:26:27,170
All right, so just do slightly better than just, hey, because frankly, people like recruiters who open up their DMs to you on social media are kind of making themselves vulnerable when they do that.

302
00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:37,710
They're doing it for you so that they can help you, but we're also opening it up to creepy things that people send us every once in a while.

303
00:26:37,710 --> 00:26:39,410
So be kind.

304
00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:43,030
Okay, so let's talk about resume real quick.

305
00:26:43,890 --> 00:26:46,330
Obviously be truthful on your resume.

306
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:53,490
I will go through the guidelines that I think make your resume most effective for you.

307
00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:58,350
However, remember what I said about responses and communicating on DMs.

308
00:26:58,350 --> 00:27:01,030
So let me tell you what to do real quick.

309
00:27:01,230 --> 00:27:07,730
And I really want to hear your responses someday, however you get around to it, letting me know if this worked for you.

310
00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:09,130
People don't get back to you.

311
00:27:09,130 --> 00:27:10,490
I could be one of those people.

312
00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:11,310
I am guilty of it.

313
00:27:11,310 --> 00:27:12,610
It happens, I'm sorry.

314
00:27:12,610 --> 00:27:16,690
Remember that you're not the only person that they're hearing from, okay?

315
00:27:16,810 --> 00:27:19,190
So how can you get them to respond to you?

316
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:26,790
Because I'm betting that most of them, them being the recruiters, want to talk to you.

317
00:27:26,790 --> 00:27:29,710
They want to help you, right?

318
00:27:29,710 --> 00:27:33,210
But they have a great volume of people that they're trying to help.

319
00:27:33,210 --> 00:27:35,570
So please remember that.

320
00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:36,650
You're not alone.

321
00:27:36,650 --> 00:27:38,550
There's a lot of people in the inbox.

322
00:27:38,550 --> 00:27:43,290
How can you get them to respond to your application when you apply?

323
00:27:43,310 --> 00:27:45,590
Apply, wait.

324
00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:49,630
Wait a couple days, not longer than that.

325
00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:57,390
Then go to LinkedIn, look for ABC Company wherever you apply.

326
00:27:57,690 --> 00:28:01,190
Probably a recruiter works there.

327
00:28:01,530 --> 00:28:07,350
So you click the people button, you look for who has the recruiter title, you send them a DM.

328
00:28:07,870 --> 00:28:10,590
Hi, Jim, it's me, Mary.

329
00:28:10,770 --> 00:28:12,970
I applied for ABC.

330
00:28:13,070 --> 00:28:18,890
Look for an identifier when you apply for the job that can help them look and find the job.

331
00:28:18,890 --> 00:28:21,330
There's usually a rec ID or something like that.

332
00:28:21,330 --> 00:28:23,230
Look for that, mention it.

333
00:28:23,270 --> 00:28:25,930
So then they're going to go look for your application.

334
00:28:26,030 --> 00:28:31,250
And when you reach out, you say, I applied for this, can't wait to hear back from you.

335
00:28:31,570 --> 00:28:32,390
Okay?

336
00:28:32,650 --> 00:28:36,290
Probably they're going to reply in one business day.

337
00:28:36,290 --> 00:28:37,450
They're going to see your message.

338
00:28:37,450 --> 00:28:38,190
They're going to reply.

339
00:28:38,190 --> 00:28:40,290
They may have never seen your application.

340
00:28:40,290 --> 00:28:41,450
Sorry, it happens.

341
00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:43,270
They probably have 50 jobs to fill.

342
00:28:43,270 --> 00:28:48,210
They probably have 50 applications per week or more per job.

343
00:28:48,530 --> 00:28:50,050
So now what are you going to do?

344
00:28:50,090 --> 00:28:55,250
If you don't hear back from that recruiter, first of all, if it was one of my recruiters, tell me.

345
00:28:56,890 --> 00:29:08,350
If it was any recruiter and they don't get back to you in a day, if you want, the next step could be look for a director of whatever the engineering department is, VP of that department as well.

346
00:29:08,350 --> 00:29:10,690
You say, hey, hi, Jane.

347
00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:13,150
I applied for this position.

348
00:29:13,150 --> 00:29:14,770
I reached out to so-and-so.

349
00:29:14,770 --> 00:29:15,890
Can't wait to hear back.

350
00:29:15,890 --> 00:29:18,310
Let me know if you need anything else from me.

351
00:29:18,550 --> 00:29:24,190
Now, really, probably, you just kind of got the recruiter in trouble, but you're probably going to hear back.

352
00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:28,430
Okay, so let's go really quickly through how to write your best resume.

353
00:29:28,670 --> 00:29:30,370
Start, please, please, please.

354
00:29:30,370 --> 00:29:31,410
Here's my name.

355
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:35,030
Actually, with or without a name, here's the most important part.

356
00:29:35,150 --> 00:29:37,470
I'm a this, and I want to be a that.

357
00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:38,350
This is the bluff.

358
00:29:38,350 --> 00:29:39,950
This is the bottom line up front.

359
00:29:40,250 --> 00:29:42,010
I'm this, and I want to be a that.

360
00:29:42,010 --> 00:29:58,870
Do not assume that the person reading your resume has the time or the technical qualifications or that they're not totally fatigued out on resumes to know, to be able to look through your resume and know what do you do and what do you want to do.

361
00:29:58,870 --> 00:30:02,670
Hi, I'm a systems engineer looking to be a solutions architect.

362
00:30:03,110 --> 00:30:07,030
I am a developer looking to manage programs.

363
00:30:07,030 --> 00:30:10,910
Just one or two sentences, help me out.

364
00:30:11,030 --> 00:30:13,610
Then I know how to proceed with you.

365
00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:22,130
Then you're going to do your technical, put the technical in there, the technicals that you've used, the tools, the software, the hardware, then a chronological.

366
00:30:22,550 --> 00:30:25,490
People argue about the length of resumes.

367
00:30:26,170 --> 00:30:28,510
Obviously, shorter is better.

368
00:30:28,510 --> 00:30:32,270
It's less to have to read, but don't feel like it has to be one or two pages.

369
00:30:32,270 --> 00:30:34,890
We are reasonable.

370
00:30:34,930 --> 00:30:44,690
Frankly, if you're in the cleared space or if you would like to be in the cleared space, it's helpful to either mention that you do have a clearance and or that you are eligible and willing to get one.

371
00:30:44,690 --> 00:30:45,750
PDF is fine.

372
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:46,790
It didn't used to be fine.

373
00:30:46,790 --> 00:30:48,150
It is fine now.

374
00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:55,710
Remember, if no one was responding, up to you to ping, send a message, send a little reminder, be patient.

375
00:30:56,950 --> 00:31:02,250
And customize each resume per the job within reason.

376
00:31:02,970 --> 00:31:04,610
Does my resume make sense?

377
00:31:04,610 --> 00:31:13,250
As your experience grows, it may become harder for whoever's looking at your resume to realize which thing you're trying to do.

378
00:31:13,670 --> 00:31:19,590
So on to the interview, try to do a little research on the company up front.

379
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:27,990
It doesn't have to be that big of a deal, but just don't be so, I'm interviewing at so many places, I can't even remember who I'm talking to.

380
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:29,730
Do a little bit better than that.

381
00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:31,350
Do a little bit of research.

382
00:31:31,870 --> 00:31:40,170
Try to find a way when it makes sense to answer as many of the questions as you can in the form of a story.

383
00:31:40,170 --> 00:31:41,110
What's your strength?

384
00:31:41,110 --> 00:31:42,050
What's your weakness?

385
00:31:42,050 --> 00:31:43,730
You know, all those kind of questions.

386
00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:45,410
Well, funny you should ask.

387
00:31:46,390 --> 00:31:56,630
One time I was building a robot and it was supposed to cross the street, but it actually blew up in the middle of the street.

388
00:31:56,630 --> 00:32:04,890
And so I learned that in the future, you don't cross the red and blue wires and you always bring a fire extinguisher, whatever.

389
00:32:04,890 --> 00:32:12,530
You just revealed to me the way that you learn from mistakes, the way that you prepare to solve problems in the future.

390
00:32:12,530 --> 00:32:16,590
You invited me into a little bit about your problem solving skills and so forth.

391
00:32:16,590 --> 00:32:19,450
So look for a way, think about it in advance.

392
00:32:19,450 --> 00:32:21,730
What are some stories that you can tell?

393
00:32:22,910 --> 00:32:25,990
You know, kind of about things that have occurred for you.

394
00:32:26,350 --> 00:32:39,050
Also, this is where I'm gonna ask you to give yourself a chance to be a real person and put the person on the other side of the table as a real person as well.

395
00:32:39,130 --> 00:32:42,830
They almost always say, do you have any questions for us?

396
00:32:42,830 --> 00:32:44,470
At the end, right?

397
00:32:44,470 --> 00:32:53,310
So hopefully they're not a grandstander and they've been trained properly how to interview and give you the opportunity to shine and not make it about them and all the things that they've done.

398
00:32:53,310 --> 00:32:57,370
However, make them into a person and they won't be ready for this.

399
00:32:57,370 --> 00:33:02,070
Say to the interviewer when they ask, do you have any questions?

400
00:33:02,070 --> 00:33:03,450
Yes, actually I do.

401
00:33:04,110 --> 00:33:12,210
When you were looking at coming to this company, did you have any reservations about working here?

402
00:33:12,430 --> 00:33:14,530
And how did that turn out?

403
00:33:15,970 --> 00:33:17,490
Wow, what a question.

404
00:33:17,510 --> 00:33:18,970
That's gonna tell you a lot.

405
00:33:18,970 --> 00:33:32,050
Maybe they're gonna say, you know, actually my kid has soccer three times a week and I was concerned about the commute and turns out they gave me a chance to do this, this and this to make that better, right?

406
00:33:32,050 --> 00:33:38,830
They're gonna make themselves into a person and they're gonna help you envision being an actual person working there instead of being all technical.

407
00:33:40,010 --> 00:33:41,610
Other favorite questions.

408
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:46,150
Yeah, actually tell me, I see you've been, how long have you been working here?

409
00:33:46,150 --> 00:33:46,790
Three years?

410
00:33:46,790 --> 00:33:47,410
Cool.

411
00:33:47,410 --> 00:33:48,690
What have you learned?

412
00:33:50,350 --> 00:33:51,650
Wait for it.

413
00:33:51,710 --> 00:33:55,730
What a revealing thing for them to have the opportunity to tell you.

414
00:33:55,730 --> 00:33:57,450
What have they learned here?

415
00:33:57,450 --> 00:34:05,360
Because if they haven't learned anything, it's gonna be very revealing, right?

416
00:34:05,420 --> 00:34:08,160
So I'm not telling you to trick them, right?

417
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,740
This isn't a social thing.

418
00:34:09,740 --> 00:34:11,460
This is making them into a person.

419
00:34:11,460 --> 00:34:13,340
They're really gonna tell you.

420
00:34:14,240 --> 00:34:19,600
I often liken interviewing to dating.

421
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:29,420
I actually don't have any dating experience, but I imagine that if you went on a date, and you sat down and you said, I love kids.

422
00:34:29,540 --> 00:34:31,480
I love traveling.

423
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:37,140
I go to church every Sunday.

424
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,360
And none of those things are true.

425
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,400
You have probably just guaranteed that that relationship isn't gonna work out.

426
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,500
So don't show up at the interview and be like, I love solving problems.

427
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,520
I'm an independent worker.

428
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,940
Actually, I love working on teams.

429
00:34:52,940 --> 00:35:00,460
All these things that you're saying about yourself, if they're not true, you're hurting you and them, right?

430
00:35:00,460 --> 00:35:02,440
So make it real.

431
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:09,420
And here's the thing, you might reveal something about yourself, and then the interviewer might say, you know what?

432
00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:16,300
James, what you told me means that you won't be a good fit for this.

433
00:35:16,380 --> 00:35:21,860
But turns out, you're a perfect fit for this other thing that we didn't even know we should be talking about, right?

434
00:35:21,860 --> 00:35:28,580
So if they're doing a good job, the more you tell them about the real you, the better off you both will end up.

435
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:32,320
Okay, so really, really, really, really, I want you to be yourself.

436
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,720
I want you to be honest.

437
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,520
My hair was blue at my last interview.

438
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:39,180
It is what it is.

439
00:35:39,220 --> 00:35:40,920
It's okay to pivot.

440
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,620
I mentioned that I was a software engineer.

441
00:35:43,620 --> 00:35:44,980
I ran a help desk, right?

442
00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:46,320
It's okay to change.

443
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:47,040
It's okay.

444
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,120
There are so many opportunities out there.

445
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,240
It is okay to pivot.

446
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:57,220
I want you to find your next best opportunity.

447
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:58,980
I really, really do.

448
00:35:58,980 --> 00:36:02,300
I want you to be where you're happy and where you're comfortable.

449
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,800
And I think there's enough opportunities out there for that to happen.

450
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,240
So really, really, be who you are, do what you love.

451
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,940
So real quick, I think this is my last spot, negotiating.

452
00:36:15,940 --> 00:36:19,640
People really, really struggle in this area.

453
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,180
I have screwed up in this area.

454
00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:23,940
I have undersold myself.

455
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,280
I have, and I've seen others do it as well.

456
00:36:27,580 --> 00:36:28,720
Here's what's up.

457
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,920
Do not tell anyone how much money you make.

458
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:32,960
Don't do it.

459
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,000
A, they shouldn't be asking.

460
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:43,320
And every federally mandated ordinance in the U.S., anyway, says that they can't ask you.

461
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,000
So I guess I should preface that.

462
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,640
A lot of you aren't in the U.S.

463
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,980
Sorry, that applied to the U.S.

464
00:36:48,980 --> 00:36:50,340
I don't know the laws everywhere.

465
00:36:50,340 --> 00:37:05,700
But I will say this, regardless of where you are, the amount of money that you currently make has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of money you should be making or could be making, okay?

466
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:18,260
Because it doesn't speak to your bonafide occupational qualifications or your education or your certifications or the most important thing that every single one of you has to offer is your willingness and your ability to do the job.

467
00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:21,520
Regardless of what you have done, right?

468
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,300
What are you willing to do and what are you able to do?

469
00:37:24,340 --> 00:37:24,680
Right?

470
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,000
What can you learn?

471
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:26,600
You know what?

472
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,380
I don't even know how to spell Python, but I know how to script.

473
00:37:30,820 --> 00:37:34,740
I just proved to you that I could be a Python developer.

474
00:37:34,740 --> 00:37:36,020
I'm willing, I'm able.

475
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,600
So please, don't tell them what you make.

476
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,700
Think about, but also answer the question when they ask, what do you want to make?

477
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:47,060
And think about how you're going to deliver that question.

478
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:48,780
What matters to you?

479
00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:51,120
More than just your paycheck.

480
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:52,260
Is it shares?

481
00:37:52,260 --> 00:37:54,480
Is it 401k?

482
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,380
Is it flexibility?

483
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,940
Is it the ability to go remote?

484
00:37:58,940 --> 00:38:00,800
Is it performance bonuses?

485
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,160
Incentive compensation?

486
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,060
Think about the total package of things that matters to you in the long run.

487
00:38:06,060 --> 00:38:09,000
Is it the insurance premiums?

488
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:10,940
Man, I'll tell you what.

489
00:38:11,580 --> 00:38:22,900
The difference, I'm not going to dox anyone, but between two paychecks at two different companies where the salaries were very similar, but the premiums were significantly different.

490
00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:24,860
Boy, that makes a huge difference.

491
00:38:25,420 --> 00:38:28,140
So, okay.

492
00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:30,460
And that's pretty much it.

493
00:38:30,460 --> 00:38:32,040
So let's recap.

494
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:33,780
Always be open.

495
00:38:34,660 --> 00:38:36,860
Be your own best advocate.

496
00:38:36,980 --> 00:38:37,800
I get it.

497
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,300
Descriptions suck.

498
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:40,940
Sometimes so do resumes.

499
00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:43,340
Let's find a way to meet in the middle.

500
00:38:43,340 --> 00:38:44,660
Be exactly who you are.

501
00:38:44,660 --> 00:38:45,680
Be yourself.

502
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,060
You is good enough.

503
00:38:47,940 --> 00:38:52,260
Notice how you're being treated all throughout your candidate experience.

504
00:38:52,420 --> 00:38:54,220
That's very, very telling.

505
00:38:54,480 --> 00:39:00,140
Remember that these challenges are like the ones that you will face as an engineer, right?

506
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:01,960
Look at them that way.

507
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,740
And you can't make them go away, but you can hopefully beat them.

508
00:39:05,940 --> 00:39:07,060
Thank you, DEF CON.

509
00:39:07,060 --> 00:39:08,420
Thank you, Kathleen.

510
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,660
And if there's a way for us to do questions and answers in business court or something, I am always open.

511
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:16,460
Thank you.

512
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,640
Thanks so much, Kirsten.

513
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,220
I really appreciate all of your great points.

514
00:39:21,220 --> 00:39:25,380
You've been just an amazing asset to the entire community.

515
00:39:25,380 --> 00:39:34,320
Yes, everyone can ask you questions in Discord channel, and I'm sure you'll be hanging around the con throughout the entire weekend and can answer other questions.

516
00:39:34,420 --> 00:39:36,140
Please do connect with her.

517
00:39:36,140 --> 00:39:39,640
She's always open to answering questions.

518
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:44,120
And be sure to follow us on Twitter at Hacking Career.

519
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,000
And that's it for today.

520
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,500
Thanks so much, everybody.