start	end	text
4380	6980	Welcome to Career Hacking Village.
7160	8620	My name is Kathleen Smith.
8620	11020	I'm one of the Village team members.
11020	12900	We're so happy that we finally have been able
12900	16580	to bring a Career Hacking Village to DEF CON.
16580	19680	As we know, many of us are looking for a job
19680	21680	and by recent studies,
21680	23960	there were over 43% of people said
23960	26380	they did not know how to find a job.
26380	30020	So I'm very thankful to invite Kirsten Renner
30020	33600	as one of the best recruiters in our community
33600	36720	to sort of share some of the best practices,
36720	38580	especially now.
38580	42420	Please remember that we'll be doing discussion in Discord.
42420	45060	We also have resume review and career coaching
45060	49480	going on from 10 to 1700 on Friday
49480	52980	and 12 to 1600 on Saturday.
52980	55330	So without further ado, Kirsten.
57150	58690	Hello, DEF CON.
59290	63570	I know that we all wish we were in Vegas right now,
64090	66170	but let's make the best of this.
66170	71630	This is actually the first summer in 11 years
71630	73930	that I am not there doing summer camp.
73930	78930	I know that for a lot of you, it's 20 or more years.
78930	82370	So this is crazy, but let's get through it
82370	83790	and make the best of it.
83790	87790	So this is my talk, but I still need a job.
93860	99110	So this will be a conversation for the active candidates
99900	102210	and also, and mostly probably,
102210	104690	for the passive candidates as well.
104690	109650	So I'm going to also offer the perspective
109650	114110	of how this can be helpful, not just for candidates,
114110	117930	but if you are trying to fill a job
117930	120310	or if you have in the past, if you will in the future,
120310	123430	this is going to be relevant to you too, and here's why.
124230	128230	Think about how this is going to offer to you,
128850	130430	noticing what are the challenges
130430	131910	that candidates are facing
132450	136550	so that you can help make things better for them.
136670	140510	So we will go through initially what's new
140510	142790	in our current times.
143130	145990	Although I will say we're so far into this
146550	150570	that we're probably all sort of getting to the point
150570	154010	of being an expert at all the new things
154010	154970	that we have to deal with,
154970	156890	but I will touch upon them quickly.
156890	158670	I will go through some tips.
158770	162310	One thing that I want to do differently
163450	167290	is show you how to hopefully take advantage of
167290	169830	and use to your advantage
171230	173010	how the new circumstances
173010	176890	can actually have a positive twist for you as well.
176890	178070	And then we will go through
178070	180750	what I like to call the fundamentals,
180750	184010	the things that all candidates face
184010	186770	and talk about on a regular basis.
193080	194830	So who am I?
194830	198070	As Kathleen mentioned, I am Karsten Renner.
198070	202090	I am the Director of Recruiting at Novetta,
202090	205890	an advanced analytics and cybersecurity firm.
205890	207650	I'm a college dropout,
207650	209710	started in software engineering,
209710	211990	and then I went into IT.
212210	213870	And how did that lead to recruiting?
213870	216690	Well, when I was building help desks
217450	219470	and managing them,
219470	221430	that's my favorite part,
221430	223790	was building the teams,
223790	227470	finding the people to bring on to the teams.
227470	230030	And so here I am 20 years later,
231130	233090	random personal thing.
233090	235010	I run ultras.
235010	236890	Ultras are anything longer than a marathon.
236890	242650	I've done about a dozen of them in the last 10 years.
242650	247790	And I have a almost disturbing love for crime TV.
247790	252290	Also a proud Army mom over the last week.
253310	255870	So I'm gonna talk to you
256870	259550	from a few different perspectives.
259550	263030	So I have seen and heard and read
263970	265750	many intelligent individuals
265750	268890	offering useful advice from their perspectives
268890	273190	on how to best find a job in our community specifically.
273470	275450	And they're coming from the perspective
275450	278270	of having been a candidate,
278270	280550	or a hiring manager,
280550	283330	or in some cases, a recruiter.
283330	286830	So I just happen to have been all of those things,
286830	288930	and I still am a couple of those things.
288930	294030	So I'm hoping that I can take my 20-ish years
294030	297470	of doing this and offer to you
297470	300090	the things that I have seen definitely work
300870	302830	and definitely not work,
302830	308070	and make those into tools that are gonna work for you.
309270	312610	So speaking of perspectives,
312610	314790	the survey that you see on the screen
315430	319630	is something that I put up on Twitter and LinkedIn.
319630	322990	And anytime you see a survey in my slides,
322990	324310	that's where I got it from.
324310	327090	Otherwise, I would have stated the source.
327310	332570	So I feel like it was a few months ago,
332570	335510	I heard, and this is not an exact quote,
335510	339850	but Alyssa Miller was talking about a survey
339850	344370	that she had put out for a talk that she was doing,
344670	348390	I believe at RSA, which she noted.
348550	351190	And she said something along the lines of
351190	355290	that there's a certain amount of responses
355290	359770	that constitutes data, maybe that makes it scientific.
359770	364290	So this is not thousands or tens of thousands of responses.
364290	366330	This is probably hundreds of responses.
366330	368330	This is just little snapshots.
368330	372990	This is before I started to do,
372990	375070	or to put together the talk submissions
375070	377910	that I was gonna do for this year.
378650	382410	I wanted my community, the people that I speak to,
382410	384890	the people that I interact with in the community
384890	387750	to tell me what they face the most.
387750	389410	What are they looking at the most?
389410	392070	What do they want me to focus on and talk about?
392070	394010	So that was the purpose of these.
397210	400010	So again, I was actually a little bit surprised
400010	401570	when I was looking at this.
403370	405110	Are you actively looking?
405110	406770	Are you passively looking?
406770	409850	Where are you coming from, from a candidate's perspective?
410090	413790	And I did get Dirk Vader's permission to quote him.
413850	416690	Apparently when he responded to the survey,
416690	420530	he responded with the comment that it is really good.
420530	422170	And I couldn't come up with a better way to say it.
422170	423670	So I asked him if I could quote him.
423670	427350	He said, yes, it is really good career hygiene
427350	430210	to always be at least
431810	434390	kind of keeping your ears and eyes open, right?
434390	435910	That's how we do this.
435910	440590	And as a random side note, technically,
440590	444710	I met the CEO of my current company
445230	448230	when I was happily employed
448230	450230	and had no interest in ever looking
450230	451470	for another job ever again.
451470	453950	I was gonna retire from the job where I was.
454570	457410	So I think that's just a really good testimony
457410	460250	to why you should always keep your eyes open.
460650	464330	And we met at the Mandalay Pool.
464920	466130	Yay, DEF CON.
467110	471390	Okay, so things are kind of different now, aren't they?
472110	473770	Interviews are happening differently.
473870	475670	Everything's happening differently.
476030	478810	So we're gonna go pretty quickly through
479610	481930	some of the tips and reminders.
481930	486230	And I am Italian, so I will tell a funny story
486230	487430	or I find it funny.
487430	489370	I'll probably laugh at myself as well.
489850	491930	But before we go through the tips,
491930	495070	I want you to know that one of the things
495070	500410	that I am very passionate about when it comes to recruiting
500410	502950	and everyone that works for me,
502950	505010	all the recruiters that work for me will tell you,
505010	508650	this is how business is done.
508690	511910	You have to treat your candidates
511910	513990	like they are the most important thing.
513990	516950	The candidate experience is the basis
516950	520870	upon which all the processes that I design
520870	523410	and implement and analyze are based
523410	526790	on the ideal candidate experience.
526790	530930	So when I did an iteration of this presentation
530930	534130	at B-Side San Antonio a few weeks ago,
534130	536110	people on Discord were commenting
536750	538430	while I was giving the presentation
538430	541630	as opposed to reporting it the way I am now.
541690	543790	And they were shocked.
543790	547730	They were shocked when I said that the recruiters
547730	551110	should always make you feel like they are your advocate
551110	553210	and they care about you.
553210	555770	And this is about you, the candidate.
555770	557930	It shouldn't be shocking to you.
557930	560130	It upsets me that it is shocking
560500	562710	and we can make this better, okay?
562710	565970	So we together will make this better.
566190	571470	Keep in mind that throughout your experience as a candidate,
572040	575410	one thing that is really an advantage to you
575810	578150	is that your future employer,
578150	579970	which is everyone that you're interviewing with
579970	582170	and everybody that you're talking to,
582170	585590	is gonna reveal to you in all likelihood
586470	591350	what it will be like to work for them, I believe.
591350	595370	Right? And on the other hand, as a recruiter,
595370	597650	the way that you're behaving as a candidate
597650	599670	is going to give me a little view
599670	602610	into what it's like to work with you, right?
602610	605290	So let's be kind both ways.
605290	607050	Let's be reasonable both ways.
607050	611250	Again, keep in mind, if they aren't flexible,
611250	612990	if they aren't accommodating,
612990	616370	if they won't give you a break and let you be a human
616370	618430	and meet you halfway,
618430	620350	what's it gonna be like to work there?
620350	623230	So keep that in mind while you're facing challenges
623230	625230	in our current environment.
625250	630630	So let's just go through a couple of the pointers.
630630	632070	I, since this is recorded,
632070	633670	you can take a screenshot of this.
633670	634970	You can save it.
634970	637210	I won't read it all verbatim.
637210	639970	However, test, test, test.
639970	643730	I logged in eight minutes early for this recording.
643730	644770	And guess what?
644770	646190	I had to fix some things.
646190	647790	Some things weren't working.
647790	650070	So test your stuff, right?
650070	653890	Test your camera, test your microphone, test everything.
653970	656230	I will also tell, here's a funny story.
656230	661510	When I was presenting at the Many Hats Club Isolation Con
661510	662870	earlier this year,
662870	666430	my first ever virtual presentation, by the way,
666430	671710	I logged in to Green Room and Ray Redacted was there
672430	674470	and he said, let's test it out.
674470	675650	Let's see.
676030	680290	So many of us will have many iterations
680290	684030	of our browsers open at one time
684030	688270	with 10 or 15 tabs per browser at one time.
688270	689790	Let me tell you something.
689790	692190	Close all that stuff.
692190	694750	Close all the things.
694750	696770	So many things can happen.
696950	699010	My company is a Google shop.
699010	703150	So if I had any of those Google windows open right now,
703150	705950	while I'm trying to do this via Zoom,
705950	707730	the camera's gonna get confused
708210	711070	and it's gonna say, who's trying to use me?
711070	713230	And it's never gonna work, right?
713230	714410	You may not even realize
714410	717410	that some minimized window is stealing your camera.
717410	719410	So very important.
719590	721430	Back to the Ray story.
721430	726030	Don't just close the windows, close the document.
726150	730310	When I shared my screen with him as a test,
730310	734530	guess what the first thing that popped up on his screen?
734530	736010	I couldn't see it.
736010	739730	So a lot of us will have many monitors open at once as well.
739730	741570	You don't know what you have minimized.
741570	743150	You don't even remember.
743150	745150	It was my credit report.
745210	748690	I gave my social security number, date of birth,
748690	752030	credit report and credit explanation to a hacker,
752030	753690	just like that.
753690	756310	So close all the things.
756450	760050	So when I say close all the things, by the way,
760050	761430	I get the song,
761430	763270	hack all the things stuck in my head
763270	764750	and then I sing close all the things,
764750	767370	but I won't sing for you today.
767370	769390	I'll go through a few more things.
769730	771490	Look out for distractions.
771890	776650	My dog right now is about a foot away from me.
776650	779010	He's always about a foot away from me.
779090	783470	If anything happens, he will start barking, okay?
783810	786510	Notice there's a glare on my glasses right now.
786510	788790	So do as I say, not as I do.
788790	792010	My dog's in the room, my glasses have a glare on them,
792010	793850	but notice things like that.
793850	795970	Notice what's going on in the background.
795970	797610	If I were to take my screen down,
797610	799430	you would see my bulletin board
799430	802030	and it has a lot of interesting things on it
802030	803810	and that would distract you.
803810	807290	So if you're going for your virtual interview,
807290	809610	just be reasonable and be aware
810230	812710	of what could be distracting.
812770	814990	I turned off all my phones,
814990	817610	which by the way is hard for me
818060	820290	because my son is at basic training
820680	824970	and I'm trying to have my phone ready for when he calls,
824970	829110	but turn off all your phones, turn off all the things.
830530	833270	So be aware of noises that you make.
833270	838310	Don't sip on your coffee, just wait until it's over.
838310	839510	That can sound really gross,
839510	843070	especially if whoever's interviewing you has headphones on.
843070	846550	If I start shifting the papers around on my desk,
846550	848050	does that sound shitty?
848050	848930	Don't do that.
848930	850690	Don't shift things around.
851290	853850	Don't hold your pen in your hand like I am right now.
853850	855550	Don't do what I'm doing.
855990	857670	All right, another thing you can do,
857670	860270	and actually I'll give Ray credit for this one too.
860270	861870	I won't tell you what he calls it,
861870	863630	but look into the camera.
864050	866350	So I personally am distracted right now
866350	869390	because I can see myself, I can see the slides,
869390	870350	I can see my notes,
870350	874150	but try to look into the camera to make this more engaging.
874150	876310	It thinks that I can't see all of you.
876330	878010	I love you, wish I could see your faces,
878010	879650	but look into the camera.
879650	881430	It makes you more engaging.
882670	887550	Okay, so one size does not fit all.
887550	889370	What do I mean by that?
889370	893010	In my upcoming slides, when I go through the fundamentals,
893010	894730	I'm going to be mentioning to you
895230	897910	what I think are gonna be useful ways
897910	900370	for you to be your own best advocate
900370	902950	and be successful as a candidate.
902950	906270	Are all the things gonna fit all the people all the time?
906270	907830	Surely not, right?
907830	909090	Because we already covered
909090	911770	that many of you are in different stages.
911770	915250	So frankly, if you're in the, I don't have a job,
917650	919350	I'm trying to keep the lights on,
919350	920250	I'm trying to get a paycheck,
920250	923130	you're gonna have different standards and perspectives
923130	925810	that are gonna make you make different decisions
925810	928070	during your candidacy journey.
929150	931530	And all of us, the best of us,
931590	934290	a lot of us have found ourselves at times
935670	937770	unemployed, not by choice, right?
937770	939710	It's happened to me, and guess what?
939910	942250	I had to take the first thing that came along
942690	945370	so I could pay my bills at that time.
945490	948690	So that's another stage that you could be in.
949350	949630	And that's another stage that you could be in
949630	950390	throughout your career.
950390	952630	So just keep in mind that I'm offering to you
952630	955430	different tools that'll make sense at different times.
955430	959790	So my recruiting team, where I currently work,
959790	963030	is not part of HR, and I'll tell you why.
963550	965510	We're part of operations.
965830	969530	And this is something that I always hoped
969530	972330	I would be able to do, and I'm thankful that I can now,
972330	974930	is be part of operations so that we're not working
974930	977070	against our customers, right?
977070	980250	Because if the talent that works at the company
981710	985850	is just as much of a tool, commodity, if you will,
985850	987950	as the hardware, as the software,
987950	991050	then in fact, recruiting is part of the operations
991050	992850	of that company, right?
992850	995670	To provide the services, to provide the software
995670	997630	or the products or whatever it is,
997630	998810	you need the right tools.
998810	1002650	People are tools in this instance, in this metaphor.
1002650	1007270	So when I look back at my very brief time
1007270	1011670	of being a software engineer back in the early 90s
1011670	1014210	using Visual Basic, as a software engineer,
1014210	1016270	when you're trying to solve a problem,
1016270	1018550	what did I do to solve the problem?
1018670	1019990	You do intakes.
1019990	1022710	You do intakes for the purpose of what?
1022710	1025510	Defining requirements with all of your stakeholders,
1025510	1027190	with your customers and so forth.
1027190	1028290	Then you do what?
1028290	1031790	You plot and you plan and you whiteboard
1031790	1033350	and you try to come up with a strategy
1033350	1036370	and you implement and you test and you analyze,
1036370	1037310	rinse, repeat.
1037830	1041290	That's also recruiting when done properly.
1042030	1044850	Just listen to me.
1045150	1047650	I'm going to do what as a recruiter?
1047770	1049190	I'm going to talk to the,
1049190	1050950	I'm gonna intake with the candidates,
1050950	1053490	make it about them, figure out what their requirements are,
1053490	1054750	preferences, requirements,
1054750	1057050	and go rank those requirements, right?
1057090	1059550	I'm gonna find out what's most important.
1059550	1061150	I'm gonna do a proper write-up.
1061150	1062630	I'm gonna deliver that to the customer,
1062630	1065250	in this case, being the hiring manager, okay?
1065310	1067510	I'm also, as a stakeholder,
1067630	1069470	a stakeholder is also your customer,
1069470	1071390	and that would be the hiring manager.
1071830	1074750	So think of the recruiter as an engineer in this case,
1074750	1076470	or as a hacker, if you will,
1076470	1078810	because what they're gonna then try to do,
1078810	1081450	and I don't mean hacker in the sense of,
1081450	1083010	you know, people think of social engineering
1083010	1086130	and manipulating and being tricky and crazy.
1086130	1087330	I'm not thinking about that.
1087330	1089530	What I'm thinking about is understanding
1089530	1093010	the machine of the human, getting to know them,
1093010	1095450	finding the requirements from each individual.
1095450	1097210	Every single one of them is different.
1097210	1099010	The hiring managers are different.
1099070	1101870	The candidates are all different,
1101870	1104610	and then finding the right match.
1104650	1108210	So it's not so much hacking, manipulating,
1108210	1109150	that sort of thing.
1109150	1110510	It's not social engineering.
1110510	1112250	It's really engineering.
1112250	1115310	It's really designing and really finding the solution
1115310	1118630	that will make the proper match between those two parts.
1119530	1121690	To get them all the way to the finish line.
1122130	1124350	So let's talk about item number one
1124350	1127810	as one of the areas people want help with.
1127810	1128510	They want help.
1128510	1130790	I said, what do you need the most help with?
1130790	1131630	Is it searching?
1131630	1132310	Is it finding?
1132310	1133190	Is it resume writing?
1133190	1136150	Which I thought, and I used to always hear,
1136150	1139930	was the big problem, but they said networking.
1140650	1146530	I posted my very first job opening, printed it,
1146530	1149690	faxed it to a newspaper, a paper newspaper.
1149810	1152410	This is when the internet was, what a thought.
1153350	1156110	And we've come a long way since then.
1156110	1159190	Let's talk about what we can do in the networking area.
1159650	1161470	We all know about job boards.
1161470	1163250	I'm not gonna list everything on here.
1163250	1166630	I am not here, oh, by the way, to promote or dox
1166630	1169470	anything that I have listed here that is a product.
1169810	1171310	I put that out there.
1171310	1174430	But I will talk about how some of them are useful.
1174870	1175750	All right.
1176530	1179470	And everybody knows about job boards,
1179470	1183690	but you may or may not know about state employment sites.
1183690	1186590	And here's the reason I'm going to mention that to you.
1186910	1190650	If you go, every single state has one, promise.
1190770	1193030	Now, because they're local government
1193030	1195790	municipality run websites, they might suck.
1195790	1197830	They might not be user-friendly.
1197830	1199990	They may not be easy to get your way around on.
1199990	1200970	However, they are there.
1200970	1202550	They are there and they are listing.
1202550	1205770	They are supposed to list every opening.
1205770	1207450	And here's how that works.
1207590	1208930	All the companies that are hiring
1210390	1213070	probably have an applicant tracking system.
1213070	1215270	And they have scraping tools that are happening
1215270	1218250	in the background and that are delivering those job openings
1218250	1221370	to all the state employment boards.
1221570	1224230	The reason that this can be useful to you,
1224230	1228150	and when I did this talk in Tampa in person,
1228610	1230030	I said, let's do an experiment.
1230030	1231650	Everybody whip out your phone.
1231650	1233250	So do this later if you want.
1233250	1234330	Whip out your phone.
1234330	1237450	Go find either your state employment job board
1238100	1240550	or the state that you want, that you're targeting,
1240550	1242410	that you want to move to or that you're interested in
1242410	1246730	and search around and see what's posted.
1247210	1248630	And you know what you're going to find out?
1248630	1251130	That there's jobs that you had no idea
1251130	1253450	that that company was hiring in your state.
1253650	1256730	In fact, in our current environment,
1256730	1258930	you are more likely to see jobs
1258930	1261850	that you never knew were available where you are
1261850	1264710	because they're available virtually now.
1264710	1266190	So enough about that.
1266330	1268290	No, I'm not getting paid by the state government.
1268290	1269390	Why didn't you know that?
1269390	1272630	People may not realize that that's available.
1273930	1275850	So please, here's another thing.
1275850	1279810	Actually, somebody split up in my last talk
1279810	1282070	and told me I was, last in-person one,
1282070	1283750	told me that I was incorrect.
1284070	1286130	But in this case, I'm not.
1286130	1287290	Don't pay.
1287350	1290570	Don't pay anyone for anything.
1290570	1292530	Sorry, people who get paid to do stuff,
1292530	1297750	but there's way too many people willing to help you for free.
1297850	1300490	Way, way, way too many people willing to help you
1300490	1303250	for free with your resume, with your interview skills.
1303250	1305430	It's happening right now here today at DEFCON.
1305430	1307030	It happens at all the B-sides.
1307030	1308410	Thanks, Kathleen.
1308570	1311230	There are people who will help you
1311230	1313750	learn how to interview better.
1313750	1315550	There are people who will help you
1315550	1318410	write your resume better, okay?
1318980	1324670	In particular, one of the things listed on this slide says,
1324670	1327850	hey, user, do you want to be a premium user?
1327850	1329230	Pay me lots of money,
1329230	1332650	and then the recruiters will be able to find you better.
1332770	1335630	Actually, there's four or five people listed on this site
1336110	1339610	who probably are mad because, or frights,
1339610	1341610	because they want you to pay as a user.
1341610	1342970	Don't do it, and I'll tell you why.
1342970	1344850	Because the recruiters, because the companies
1344850	1347750	who are hiring are already paying the money.
1347750	1351850	Lots and lots and lots of money to find you,
1351850	1353630	regardless of your account,
1353630	1355290	regardless of whether or not you have one,
1355290	1357990	and certainly you don't need a premium one.
1357990	1358950	Promise.
1358990	1360810	I just don't want you to waste your money.
1360810	1362590	But you can if you want to.
1362730	1365410	So I haven't recruited in a while, excuse me,
1365410	1371610	but I know that pretty much all recruiters
1371610	1373510	have a LinkedIn account,
1373510	1376690	and we will get to how to communicate with them through that,
1376690	1378470	and most of them have all of the ways
1378470	1381030	that you can connect to them open as well.
1383190	1386070	I know it's hard right now, but conferences are amazing.
1386070	1387670	I can't speak enough about it.
1387670	1391110	I can't tell you how much they have been valuable to me
1391110	1393350	in well over a decade.
1393870	1396530	The greater part of my success,
1396530	1399950	and I'm a pretty successful recruiter,
1399950	1404930	is through the conferences, through the community,
1404930	1406750	and through networking.
1406750	1411870	Not just the happy hiring hours and all that junk,
1411870	1416010	but the industry conferences in particular
1416010	1418010	are the most valuable.
1418010	1420590	And if you have the opportunity ever
1420970	1422690	to volunteer at one of them,
1422690	1427470	I promise it's going to be multi-fold beneficial to you.
1427590	1431870	It will be so advantageous to you to be a volunteer.
1431870	1434290	You will learn, and you will grow,
1434290	1437210	and your network will flourish when you volunteer
1437210	1439270	in any way that you can.
1439390	1441390	So raise your hand, volunteer.
1442830	1444670	Okay, so real quick about this.
1444670	1447010	You may or may not be able to see these images.
1447010	1449930	I put through them together very, very quickly.
1450210	1454310	I hear you when you say, the recruiters are horrible.
1454390	1455070	They're horrible.
1455070	1457210	They reach out to me, and they say horrible things to me,
1457210	1459470	and they just say things that make no sense,
1459470	1461430	and why are they asking me all these questions?
1461430	1462290	I get it.
1462290	1463350	I'm going to talk to you
1463350	1465930	about two different perspectives here real quick.
1466410	1470410	The top is a quick snapshot of my LinkedIn.
1470430	1472490	My LinkedIn says, oh, by the way,
1472490	1475530	if you're a recruiter, and I don't know you,
1475530	1478210	I won't accept your connection request.
1478210	1479710	P.S., I'm not looking for a job.
1479710	1481450	It says it right there.
1481450	1485850	However, you can also see this dude reaches out and says,
1485850	1487330	do you want to recruit for me?
1487690	1489770	So I get it, buddy.
1489770	1490890	You're doing your thing.
1490890	1493330	My recruiters do their thing as well.
1493330	1495790	However, I also hear a lot of you saying,
1495790	1498670	or I see a lot of you saying, are you serious?
1498670	1502170	You just asked me if I wanted to be a Java developer,
1502170	1505410	and I'm a CTO, which is kind of like that, right?
1505410	1507070	No, I don't want to stop being a director
1507070	1509310	and go source for you.
1510390	1511310	I get it.
1511310	1512090	It happens.
1512090	1513010	I'm sorry.
1513010	1514710	But it's also an opportunity,
1514710	1516930	and this could be an opportunity,
1516930	1521110	even if I hadn't time, for me to talk to this person
1521110	1522770	and to say, you know what?
1523530	1526190	You'll notice that, no, I'm not looking.
1526410	1528310	However, I do know somebody who is,
1528310	1530030	or maybe you should look in this direction
1530030	1530810	or that direction.
1530810	1533030	So everything's always an opportunity to network
1533030	1536970	and to help others as well.
1537130	1539890	Also, real quick snapshot down here.
1539890	1544710	It's 15 or so people who are,
1544710	1547990	all they said to me in my DMs is,
1547990	1552470	hey, and that's all they said.
1553050	1556050	Sorry, not answering you.
1556050	1557870	So I'm not saying you have to tell me something
1557870	1560670	super clever or write a whole dissertation
1560670	1562210	or anything crazy like that,
1562210	1565890	but you have to compel the people you're reaching out to
1565890	1568890	to take the extra step.
1569110	1572410	I heard, I read, you have three to five seconds.
1572410	1576530	All right, so just do slightly better than just, hey,
1576530	1580210	because frankly, people like recruiters
1580210	1584010	who open up their DMs to you on social media
1584530	1587170	are kind of making themselves vulnerable when they do that.
1587170	1590090	They're doing it for you so that they can help you,
1591650	1595930	but we're also opening it up to creepy things
1595930	1597710	that people send us every once in a while.
1597710	1599410	So be kind.
1600010	1603030	Okay, so let's talk about resume real quick.
1603890	1606330	Obviously be truthful on your resume.
1607190	1609590	I will go through the guidelines
1609590	1613490	that I think make your resume most effective for you.
1613490	1616150	However, remember what I said about responses
1616150	1618350	and communicating on DMs.
1618350	1621030	So let me tell you what to do real quick.
1621230	1624330	And I really want to hear your responses someday,
1624330	1625810	however you get around to it,
1625810	1627730	letting me know if this worked for you.
1627730	1629130	People don't get back to you.
1629130	1630490	I could be one of those people.
1630490	1631310	I am guilty of it.
1631310	1632610	It happens, I'm sorry.
1632610	1634530	Remember that you're not the only person
1634530	1636690	that they're hearing from, okay?
1636810	1639190	So how can you get them to respond to you?
1639190	1643410	Because I'm betting that most of them,
1643410	1646790	them being the recruiters, want to talk to you.
1646790	1649710	They want to help you, right?
1649710	1651570	But they have a great volume of people
1651570	1653210	that they're trying to help.
1653210	1655570	So please remember that.
1655570	1656650	You're not alone.
1656650	1658550	There's a lot of people in the inbox.
1658550	1661230	How can you get them to respond to your application
1661230	1663290	when you apply?
1663310	1665590	Apply, wait.
1665590	1669630	Wait a couple days, not longer than that.
1669630	1674090	Then go to LinkedIn,
1674090	1677390	look for ABC Company wherever you apply.
1677690	1681190	Probably a recruiter works there.
1681530	1683450	So you click the people button,
1683450	1685830	you look for who has the recruiter title,
1685830	1687350	you send them a DM.
1687870	1690590	Hi, Jim, it's me, Mary.
1690770	1692970	I applied for ABC.
1693070	1695890	Look for an identifier when you apply for the job
1695890	1698890	that can help them look and find the job.
1698890	1701330	There's usually a rec ID or something like that.
1701330	1703230	Look for that, mention it.
1703270	1705930	So then they're going to go look for your application.
1706030	1707970	And when you reach out, you say,
1707970	1711250	I applied for this, can't wait to hear back from you.
1711570	1712390	Okay?
1712650	1716290	Probably they're going to reply in one business day.
1716290	1717450	They're going to see your message.
1717450	1718190	They're going to reply.
1718190	1720290	They may have never seen your application.
1720290	1721450	Sorry, it happens.
1721450	1723270	They probably have 50 jobs to fill.
1723270	1726030	They probably have 50 applications per week
1726030	1728210	or more per job.
1728530	1730050	So now what are you going to do?
1730090	1732210	If you don't hear back from that recruiter,
1732210	1735250	first of all, if it was one of my recruiters, tell me.
1736890	1738470	If it was any recruiter
1738470	1740370	and they don't get back to you in a day,
1740370	1742870	if you want, the next step could be
1742870	1744750	look for a director of whatever
1744750	1746230	the engineering department is,
1746230	1748350	VP of that department as well.
1748350	1750690	You say, hey, hi, Jane.
1751350	1753150	I applied for this position.
1753150	1754770	I reached out to so-and-so.
1754770	1755890	Can't wait to hear back.
1755890	1758310	Let me know if you need anything else from me.
1758550	1760650	Now, really, probably,
1760650	1762370	you just kind of got the recruiter in trouble,
1762370	1764190	but you're probably going to hear back.
1765010	1766490	Okay, so let's go really quickly
1766490	1768430	through how to write your best resume.
1768670	1770370	Start, please, please, please.
1770370	1771410	Here's my name.
1771830	1773450	Actually, with or without a name,
1773450	1775030	here's the most important part.
1775150	1777470	I'm a this, and I want to be a that.
1777470	1778350	This is the bluff.
1778350	1779950	This is the bottom line up front.
1780250	1782010	I'm this, and I want to be a that.
1782010	1785190	Do not assume that the person reading your resume
1786130	1788630	has the time or the technical qualifications
1790210	1792730	or that they're not totally fatigued out on resumes
1793190	1796070	to know, to be able to look through your resume
1796070	1798870	and know what do you do and what do you want to do.
1798870	1800490	Hi, I'm a systems engineer
1800490	1802670	looking to be a solutions architect.
1803110	1807030	I am a developer looking to manage programs.
1807030	1810910	Just one or two sentences, help me out.
1811030	1813610	Then I know how to proceed with you.
1813610	1815470	Then you're going to do your technical,
1815470	1816790	put the technical in there,
1816790	1818250	the technicals that you've used,
1818250	1820810	the tools, the software, the hardware,
1820810	1822130	then a chronological.
1822550	1825490	People argue about the length of resumes.
1826170	1828510	Obviously, shorter is better.
1828510	1829770	It's less to have to read,
1829770	1832270	but don't feel like it has to be one or two pages.
1832270	1834890	We are reasonable.
1834930	1836490	Frankly, if you're in the cleared space
1836490	1838330	or if you would like to be in the cleared space,
1838330	1839610	it's helpful to either mention
1839610	1841470	that you do have a clearance
1841470	1844690	and or that you are eligible and willing to get one.
1844690	1845750	PDF is fine.
1845750	1846790	It didn't used to be fine.
1846790	1848150	It is fine now.
1848210	1850590	Remember, if no one was responding,
1850590	1853270	up to you to ping, send a message,
1853270	1855710	send a little reminder, be patient.
1856950	1862250	And customize each resume per the job within reason.
1862970	1864610	Does my resume make sense?
1864610	1866110	As your experience grows,
1866110	1869830	it may become harder for whoever's looking at your resume
1869830	1873250	to realize which thing you're trying to do.
1873670	1875530	So on to the interview,
1876210	1879590	try to do a little research on the company up front.
1880630	1882750	It doesn't have to be that big of a deal,
1882750	1884830	but just don't be so,
1884830	1886150	I'm interviewing at so many places,
1886150	1887990	I can't even remember who I'm talking to.
1887990	1889730	Do a little bit better than that.
1889730	1891350	Do a little bit of research.
1891870	1896010	Try to find a way when it makes sense
1896010	1898610	to answer as many of the questions as you can
1898610	1900170	in the form of a story.
1900170	1901110	What's your strength?
1901110	1902050	What's your weakness?
1902050	1903730	You know, all those kind of questions.
1903730	1905410	Well, funny you should ask.
1906390	1909550	One time I was building a robot
1910270	1913050	and it was supposed to cross the street,
1913050	1916630	but it actually blew up in the middle of the street.
1916630	1919990	And so I learned that in the future,
1919990	1921970	you don't cross the red and blue wires
1921970	1924890	and you always bring a fire extinguisher, whatever.
1924890	1926850	You just revealed to me
1927390	1929310	the way that you learn from mistakes,
1929310	1932530	the way that you prepare to solve problems in the future.
1932530	1934170	You invited me into a little bit
1934170	1936590	about your problem solving skills and so forth.
1936590	1939450	So look for a way, think about it in advance.
1939450	1941730	What are some stories that you can tell?
1942910	1945990	You know, kind of about things that have occurred for you.
1946350	1949690	Also, this is where I'm gonna ask you
1949690	1954170	to give yourself a chance to be a real person
1954170	1956470	and put the person on the other side of the table
1956950	1959050	as a real person as well.
1959130	1961390	They almost always say,
1961390	1962830	do you have any questions for us?
1962830	1964470	At the end, right?
1964470	1966290	So hopefully they're not a grandstander
1966290	1968590	and they've been trained properly how to interview
1968590	1970850	and give you the opportunity to shine
1970850	1971950	and not make it about them
1971950	1973310	and all the things that they've done.
1973310	1975550	However, make them into a person
1975550	1977370	and they won't be ready for this.
1977370	1981090	Say to the interviewer when they ask,
1981090	1982070	do you have any questions?
1982070	1983450	Yes, actually I do.
1984110	1988390	When you were looking at coming to this company,
1988390	1992210	did you have any reservations about working here?
1992430	1994530	And how did that turn out?
1995970	1997490	Wow, what a question.
1997510	1998970	That's gonna tell you a lot.
1998970	1999970	Maybe they're gonna say,
1999970	2005350	you know, actually my kid has soccer three times a week
2005350	2007390	and I was concerned about the commute
2007390	2010490	and turns out they gave me a chance to do this,
2010490	2012050	this and this to make that better, right?
2012050	2013310	They're gonna make themselves into a person
2013310	2014790	and they're gonna help you envision
2014790	2016690	being an actual person working there
2016690	2018830	instead of being all technical.
2020010	2021610	Other favorite questions.
2021990	2023970	Yeah, actually tell me,
2023970	2025110	I see you've been,
2025110	2026150	how long have you been working here?
2026150	2026790	Three years?
2026790	2027410	Cool.
2027410	2028690	What have you learned?
2030350	2031650	Wait for it.
2031710	2033690	What a revealing thing for them
2033690	2035730	to have the opportunity to tell you.
2035730	2037450	What have they learned here?
2037450	2038970	Because if they haven't learned anything,
2038970	2045360	it's gonna be very revealing, right?
2045420	2048160	So I'm not telling you to trick them, right?
2048160	2049740	This isn't a social thing.
2049740	2051460	This is making them into a person.
2051460	2053340	They're really gonna tell you.
2054240	2059600	I often liken interviewing to dating.
2059600	2061840	I actually don't have any dating experience,
2061840	2064320	but I imagine that if you went on a date,
2065680	2068160	and you sat down and you said,
2068160	2069420	I love kids.
2069540	2071480	I love traveling.
2071900	2077140	I go to church every Sunday.
2077400	2079360	And none of those things are true.
2079360	2082560	You have probably just guaranteed
2082560	2084400	that that relationship isn't gonna work out.
2084400	2086360	So don't show up at the interview and be like,
2086360	2088500	I love solving problems.
2088840	2090520	I'm an independent worker.
2090520	2092940	Actually, I love working on teams.
2092940	2095540	All these things that you're saying about yourself,
2095540	2097360	if they're not true,
2097360	2100460	you're hurting you and them, right?
2100460	2102440	So make it real.
2102440	2103200	And here's the thing,
2103200	2105340	you might reveal something about yourself,
2105340	2108180	and then the interviewer might say,
2108180	2109420	you know what?
2110700	2113480	James, what you told me means
2113480	2116300	that you won't be a good fit for this.
2116380	2119060	But turns out, you're a perfect fit for this other thing
2119060	2121860	that we didn't even know we should be talking about, right?
2121860	2123540	So if they're doing a good job,
2123540	2126460	the more you tell them about the real you,
2126460	2128580	the better off you both will end up.
2129500	2131300	Okay, so really, really, really, really,
2131300	2132320	I want you to be yourself.
2132320	2133720	I want you to be honest.
2134080	2137520	My hair was blue at my last interview.
2137720	2139180	It is what it is.
2139220	2140920	It's okay to pivot.
2140920	2143620	I mentioned that I was a software engineer.
2143620	2144980	I ran a help desk, right?
2144980	2146320	It's okay to change.
2146320	2147040	It's okay.
2147040	2150120	There are so many opportunities out there.
2150120	2152240	It is okay to pivot.
2152240	2157220	I want you to find your next best opportunity.
2157360	2158980	I really, really do.
2158980	2160820	I want you to be where you're happy
2160820	2162300	and where you're comfortable.
2162440	2165660	And I think there's enough opportunities out there
2165660	2166800	for that to happen.
2166800	2170240	So really, really, be who you are, do what you love.
2170600	2175940	So real quick, I think this is my last spot, negotiating.
2175940	2179640	People really, really struggle in this area.
2179640	2182180	I have screwed up in this area.
2182180	2183940	I have undersold myself.
2183960	2187280	I have, and I've seen others do it as well.
2187580	2188720	Here's what's up.
2189040	2191920	Do not tell anyone how much money you make.
2191920	2192960	Don't do it.
2192960	2195000	A, they shouldn't be asking.
2195480	2201260	And every federally mandated ordinance in the U.S., anyway,
2201260	2203320	says that they can't ask you.
2203320	2205000	So I guess I should preface that.
2205000	2206640	A lot of you aren't in the U.S.
2206640	2208980	Sorry, that applied to the U.S.
2208980	2210340	I don't know the laws everywhere.
2210340	2213400	But I will say this, regardless of where you are,
2213400	2215960	the amount of money that you currently make
2215960	2219120	has absolutely nothing to do
2219120	2222360	with the amount of money you should be making
2222360	2225700	or could be making, okay?
2225700	2226800	Because it doesn't speak
2226800	2228660	to your bonafide occupational qualifications
2228660	2230440	or your education or your certifications
2230440	2232320	or the most important thing
2232320	2233800	that every single one of you has to offer
2233800	2238260	is your willingness and your ability to do the job.
2239100	2241520	Regardless of what you have done, right?
2241520	2244300	What are you willing to do and what are you able to do?
2244340	2246000	Right? What can you learn?
2246000	2246600	You know what?
2246600	2248840	I don't even know how to spell Python,
2248840	2250380	but I know how to script.
2250820	2254740	I just proved to you that I could be a Python developer.
2254740	2256020	I'm willing, I'm able.
2256080	2258600	So please, don't tell them what you make.
2258600	2261180	Think about, but also answer the question
2261810	2263700	when they ask, what do you want to make?
2263700	2267060	And think about how you're going to deliver that question.
2267160	2268780	What matters to you?
2268780	2271120	More than just your paycheck.
2271240	2272260	Is it shares?
2272260	2274480	Is it 401k?
2274560	2276380	Is it flexibility?
2276600	2278940	Is it the ability to go remote?
2278940	2280800	Is it performance bonuses?
2280800	2282160	Incentive compensation?
2282160	2284040	Think about the total package of things
2284040	2286060	that matters to you in the long run.
2286060	2289000	Is it the insurance premiums?
2289000	2290940	Man, I'll tell you what.
2291580	2294500	The difference, I'm not going to dox anyone,
2294500	2296960	but between two paychecks at two different companies
2296960	2299260	where the salaries were very similar,
2299260	2302900	but the premiums were significantly different.
2302900	2304860	Boy, that makes a huge difference.
2305420	2308140	So, okay.
2308140	2310460	And that's pretty much it.
2310460	2312040	So let's recap.
2312040	2313780	Always be open.
2314660	2316860	Be your own best advocate.
2316980	2317800	I get it.
2317800	2319300	Descriptions suck.
2319300	2320940	Sometimes so do resumes.
2320940	2323340	Let's find a way to meet in the middle.
2323340	2324660	Be exactly who you are.
2324660	2325680	Be yourself.
2325680	2327060	You is good enough.
2327940	2329580	Notice how you're being treated
2329580	2332260	all throughout your candidate experience.
2332420	2334220	That's very, very telling.
2334480	2337340	Remember that these challenges are like the ones
2337340	2340140	that you will face as an engineer, right?
2340280	2341960	Look at them that way.
2341960	2343980	And you can't make them go away,
2343980	2345740	but you can hopefully beat them.
2345940	2347060	Thank you, DEF CON.
2347060	2348420	Thank you, Kathleen.
2348640	2351500	And if there's a way for us to do questions and answers
2351500	2354660	in business court or something, I am always open.
2355680	2356460	Thank you.
2356960	2358640	Thanks so much, Kirsten.
2358640	2361220	I really appreciate all of your great points.
2361220	2365380	You've been just an amazing asset to the entire community.
2365380	2369060	Yes, everyone can ask you questions in Discord channel,
2369060	2371120	and I'm sure you'll be hanging around the con
2371120	2372360	throughout the entire weekend
2372360	2374320	and can answer other questions.
2374420	2376140	Please do connect with her.
2376140	2379640	She's always open to answering questions.
2379640	2384120	And be sure to follow us on Twitter at Hacking Career.
2384120	2386000	And that's it for today.
2386000	2387500	Thanks so much, everybody.