[00:04.380 --> 00:06.980] Welcome to Career Hacking Village. [00:07.160 --> 00:08.620] My name is Kathleen Smith. [00:08.620 --> 00:11.020] I'm one of the Village team members. [00:11.020 --> 00:12.900] We're so happy that we finally have been able [00:12.900 --> 00:16.580] to bring a Career Hacking Village to DEF CON. [00:16.580 --> 00:19.680] As we know, many of us are looking for a job [00:19.680 --> 00:21.680] and by recent studies, [00:21.680 --> 00:23.960] there were over 43% of people said [00:23.960 --> 00:26.380] they did not know how to find a job. [00:26.380 --> 00:30.020] So I'm very thankful to invite Kirsten Renner [00:30.020 --> 00:33.600] as one of the best recruiters in our community [00:33.600 --> 00:36.720] to sort of share some of the best practices, [00:36.720 --> 00:38.580] especially now. [00:38.580 --> 00:42.420] Please remember that we'll be doing discussion in Discord. [00:42.420 --> 00:45.060] We also have resume review and career coaching [00:45.060 --> 00:49.480] going on from 10 to 1700 on Friday [00:49.480 --> 00:52.980] and 12 to 1600 on Saturday. [00:52.980 --> 00:55.330] So without further ado, Kirsten. [00:57.150 --> 00:58.690] Hello, DEF CON. [00:59.290 --> 01:03.570] I know that we all wish we were in Vegas right now, [01:04.090 --> 01:06.170] but let's make the best of this. [01:06.170 --> 01:11.630] This is actually the first summer in 11 years [01:11.630 --> 01:13.930] that I am not there doing summer camp. [01:13.930 --> 01:18.930] I know that for a lot of you, it's 20 or more years. [01:18.930 --> 01:22.370] So this is crazy, but let's get through it [01:22.370 --> 01:23.790] and make the best of it. [01:23.790 --> 01:27.790] So this is my talk, but I still need a job. [01:33.860 --> 01:39.110] So this will be a conversation for the active candidates [01:39.900 --> 01:42.210] and also, and mostly probably, [01:42.210 --> 01:44.690] for the passive candidates as well. [01:44.690 --> 01:49.650] So I'm going to also offer the perspective [01:49.650 --> 01:54.110] of how this can be helpful, not just for candidates, [01:54.110 --> 01:57.930] but if you are trying to fill a job [01:57.930 --> 02:00.310] or if you have in the past, if you will in the future, [02:00.310 --> 02:03.430] this is going to be relevant to you too, and here's why. [02:04.230 --> 02:08.230] Think about how this is going to offer to you, [02:08.850 --> 02:10.430] noticing what are the challenges [02:10.430 --> 02:11.910] that candidates are facing [02:12.450 --> 02:16.550] so that you can help make things better for them. [02:16.670 --> 02:20.510] So we will go through initially what's new [02:20.510 --> 02:22.790] in our current times. [02:23.130 --> 02:25.990] Although I will say we're so far into this [02:26.550 --> 02:30.570] that we're probably all sort of getting to the point [02:30.570 --> 02:34.010] of being an expert at all the new things [02:34.010 --> 02:34.970] that we have to deal with, [02:34.970 --> 02:36.890] but I will touch upon them quickly. [02:36.890 --> 02:38.670] I will go through some tips. [02:38.770 --> 02:42.310] One thing that I want to do differently [02:43.450 --> 02:47.290] is show you how to hopefully take advantage of [02:47.290 --> 02:49.830] and use to your advantage [02:51.230 --> 02:53.010] how the new circumstances [02:53.010 --> 02:56.890] can actually have a positive twist for you as well. [02:56.890 --> 02:58.070] And then we will go through [02:58.070 --> 03:00.750] what I like to call the fundamentals, [03:00.750 --> 03:04.010] the things that all candidates face [03:04.010 --> 03:06.770] and talk about on a regular basis. [03:13.080 --> 03:14.830] So who am I? [03:14.830 --> 03:18.070] As Kathleen mentioned, I am Karsten Renner. [03:18.070 --> 03:22.090] I am the Director of Recruiting at Novetta, [03:22.090 --> 03:25.890] an advanced analytics and cybersecurity firm. [03:25.890 --> 03:27.650] I'm a college dropout, [03:27.650 --> 03:29.710] started in software engineering, [03:29.710 --> 03:31.990] and then I went into IT. [03:32.210 --> 03:33.870] And how did that lead to recruiting? [03:33.870 --> 03:36.690] Well, when I was building help desks [03:37.450 --> 03:39.470] and managing them, [03:39.470 --> 03:41.430] that's my favorite part, [03:41.430 --> 03:43.790] was building the teams, [03:43.790 --> 03:47.470] finding the people to bring on to the teams. [03:47.470 --> 03:50.030] And so here I am 20 years later, [03:51.130 --> 03:53.090] random personal thing. [03:53.090 --> 03:55.010] I run ultras. [03:55.010 --> 03:56.890] Ultras are anything longer than a marathon. [03:56.890 --> 04:02.650] I've done about a dozen of them in the last 10 years. [04:02.650 --> 04:07.790] And I have a almost disturbing love for crime TV. [04:07.790 --> 04:12.290] Also a proud Army mom over the last week. [04:13.310 --> 04:15.870] So I'm gonna talk to you [04:16.870 --> 04:19.550] from a few different perspectives. [04:19.550 --> 04:23.030] So I have seen and heard and read [04:23.970 --> 04:25.750] many intelligent individuals [04:25.750 --> 04:28.890] offering useful advice from their perspectives [04:28.890 --> 04:33.190] on how to best find a job in our community specifically. [04:33.470 --> 04:35.450] And they're coming from the perspective [04:35.450 --> 04:38.270] of having been a candidate, [04:38.270 --> 04:40.550] or a hiring manager, [04:40.550 --> 04:43.330] or in some cases, a recruiter. [04:43.330 --> 04:46.830] So I just happen to have been all of those things, [04:46.830 --> 04:48.930] and I still am a couple of those things. [04:48.930 --> 04:54.030] So I'm hoping that I can take my 20-ish years [04:54.030 --> 04:57.470] of doing this and offer to you [04:57.470 --> 05:00.090] the things that I have seen definitely work [05:00.870 --> 05:02.830] and definitely not work, [05:02.830 --> 05:08.070] and make those into tools that are gonna work for you. [05:09.270 --> 05:12.610] So speaking of perspectives, [05:12.610 --> 05:14.790] the survey that you see on the screen [05:15.430 --> 05:19.630] is something that I put up on Twitter and LinkedIn. [05:19.630 --> 05:22.990] And anytime you see a survey in my slides, [05:22.990 --> 05:24.310] that's where I got it from. [05:24.310 --> 05:27.090] Otherwise, I would have stated the source. [05:27.310 --> 05:32.570] So I feel like it was a few months ago, [05:32.570 --> 05:35.510] I heard, and this is not an exact quote, [05:35.510 --> 05:39.850] but Alyssa Miller was talking about a survey [05:39.850 --> 05:44.370] that she had put out for a talk that she was doing, [05:44.670 --> 05:48.390] I believe at RSA, which she noted. [05:48.550 --> 05:51.190] And she said something along the lines of [05:51.190 --> 05:55.290] that there's a certain amount of responses [05:55.290 --> 05:59.770] that constitutes data, maybe that makes it scientific. [05:59.770 --> 06:04.290] So this is not thousands or tens of thousands of responses. [06:04.290 --> 06:06.330] This is probably hundreds of responses. [06:06.330 --> 06:08.330] This is just little snapshots. [06:08.330 --> 06:12.990] This is before I started to do, [06:12.990 --> 06:15.070] or to put together the talk submissions [06:15.070 --> 06:17.910] that I was gonna do for this year. [06:18.650 --> 06:22.410] I wanted my community, the people that I speak to, [06:22.410 --> 06:24.890] the people that I interact with in the community [06:24.890 --> 06:27.750] to tell me what they face the most. [06:27.750 --> 06:29.410] What are they looking at the most? [06:29.410 --> 06:32.070] What do they want me to focus on and talk about? [06:32.070 --> 06:34.010] So that was the purpose of these. [06:37.210 --> 06:40.010] So again, I was actually a little bit surprised [06:40.010 --> 06:41.570] when I was looking at this. [06:43.370 --> 06:45.110] Are you actively looking? [06:45.110 --> 06:46.770] Are you passively looking? [06:46.770 --> 06:49.850] Where are you coming from, from a candidate's perspective? [06:50.090 --> 06:53.790] And I did get Dirk Vader's permission to quote him. [06:53.850 --> 06:56.690] Apparently when he responded to the survey, [06:56.690 --> 07:00.530] he responded with the comment that it is really good. [07:00.530 --> 07:02.170] And I couldn't come up with a better way to say it. [07:02.170 --> 07:03.670] So I asked him if I could quote him. [07:03.670 --> 07:07.350] He said, yes, it is really good career hygiene [07:07.350 --> 07:10.210] to always be at least [07:11.810 --> 07:14.390] kind of keeping your ears and eyes open, right? [07:14.390 --> 07:15.910] That's how we do this. [07:15.910 --> 07:20.590] And as a random side note, technically, [07:20.590 --> 07:24.710] I met the CEO of my current company [07:25.230 --> 07:28.230] when I was happily employed [07:28.230 --> 07:30.230] and had no interest in ever looking [07:30.230 --> 07:31.470] for another job ever again. [07:31.470 --> 07:33.950] I was gonna retire from the job where I was. [07:34.570 --> 07:37.410] So I think that's just a really good testimony [07:37.410 --> 07:40.250] to why you should always keep your eyes open. [07:40.650 --> 07:44.330] And we met at the Mandalay Pool. [07:44.920 --> 07:46.130] Yay, DEF CON. [07:47.110 --> 07:51.390] Okay, so things are kind of different now, aren't they? [07:52.110 --> 07:53.770] Interviews are happening differently. [07:53.870 --> 07:55.670] Everything's happening differently. [07:56.030 --> 07:58.810] So we're gonna go pretty quickly through [07:59.610 --> 08:01.930] some of the tips and reminders. [08:01.930 --> 08:06.230] And I am Italian, so I will tell a funny story [08:06.230 --> 08:07.430] or I find it funny. [08:07.430 --> 08:09.370] I'll probably laugh at myself as well. [08:09.850 --> 08:11.930] But before we go through the tips, [08:11.930 --> 08:15.070] I want you to know that one of the things [08:15.070 --> 08:20.410] that I am very passionate about when it comes to recruiting [08:20.410 --> 08:22.950] and everyone that works for me, [08:22.950 --> 08:25.010] all the recruiters that work for me will tell you, [08:25.010 --> 08:28.650] this is how business is done. [08:28.690 --> 08:31.910] You have to treat your candidates [08:31.910 --> 08:33.990] like they are the most important thing. [08:33.990 --> 08:36.950] The candidate experience is the basis [08:36.950 --> 08:40.870] upon which all the processes that I design [08:40.870 --> 08:43.410] and implement and analyze are based [08:43.410 --> 08:46.790] on the ideal candidate experience. [08:46.790 --> 08:50.930] So when I did an iteration of this presentation [08:50.930 --> 08:54.130] at B-Side San Antonio a few weeks ago, [08:54.130 --> 08:56.110] people on Discord were commenting [08:56.750 --> 08:58.430] while I was giving the presentation [08:58.430 --> 09:01.630] as opposed to reporting it the way I am now. [09:01.690 --> 09:03.790] And they were shocked. [09:03.790 --> 09:07.730] They were shocked when I said that the recruiters [09:07.730 --> 09:11.110] should always make you feel like they are your advocate [09:11.110 --> 09:13.210] and they care about you. [09:13.210 --> 09:15.770] And this is about you, the candidate. [09:15.770 --> 09:17.930] It shouldn't be shocking to you. [09:17.930 --> 09:20.130] It upsets me that it is shocking [09:20.500 --> 09:22.710] and we can make this better, okay? [09:22.710 --> 09:25.970] So we together will make this better. [09:26.190 --> 09:31.470] Keep in mind that throughout your experience as a candidate, [09:32.040 --> 09:35.410] one thing that is really an advantage to you [09:35.810 --> 09:38.150] is that your future employer, [09:38.150 --> 09:39.970] which is everyone that you're interviewing with [09:39.970 --> 09:42.170] and everybody that you're talking to, [09:42.170 --> 09:45.590] is gonna reveal to you in all likelihood [09:46.470 --> 09:51.350] what it will be like to work for them, I believe. [09:51.350 --> 09:55.370] Right? And on the other hand, as a recruiter, [09:55.370 --> 09:57.650] the way that you're behaving as a candidate [09:57.650 --> 09:59.670] is going to give me a little view [09:59.670 --> 10:02.610] into what it's like to work with you, right? [10:02.610 --> 10:05.290] So let's be kind both ways. [10:05.290 --> 10:07.050] Let's be reasonable both ways. [10:07.050 --> 10:11.250] Again, keep in mind, if they aren't flexible, [10:11.250 --> 10:12.990] if they aren't accommodating, [10:12.990 --> 10:16.370] if they won't give you a break and let you be a human [10:16.370 --> 10:18.430] and meet you halfway, [10:18.430 --> 10:20.350] what's it gonna be like to work there? [10:20.350 --> 10:23.230] So keep that in mind while you're facing challenges [10:23.230 --> 10:25.230] in our current environment. [10:25.250 --> 10:30.630] So let's just go through a couple of the pointers. [10:30.630 --> 10:32.070] I, since this is recorded, [10:32.070 --> 10:33.670] you can take a screenshot of this. [10:33.670 --> 10:34.970] You can save it. [10:34.970 --> 10:37.210] I won't read it all verbatim. [10:37.210 --> 10:39.970] However, test, test, test. [10:39.970 --> 10:43.730] I logged in eight minutes early for this recording. [10:43.730 --> 10:44.770] And guess what? [10:44.770 --> 10:46.190] I had to fix some things. [10:46.190 --> 10:47.790] Some things weren't working. [10:47.790 --> 10:50.070] So test your stuff, right? [10:50.070 --> 10:53.890] Test your camera, test your microphone, test everything. [10:53.970 --> 10:56.230] I will also tell, here's a funny story. [10:56.230 --> 11:01.510] When I was presenting at the Many Hats Club Isolation Con [11:01.510 --> 11:02.870] earlier this year, [11:02.870 --> 11:06.430] my first ever virtual presentation, by the way, [11:06.430 --> 11:11.710] I logged in to Green Room and Ray Redacted was there [11:12.430 --> 11:14.470] and he said, let's test it out. [11:14.470 --> 11:15.650] Let's see. [11:16.030 --> 11:20.290] So many of us will have many iterations [11:20.290 --> 11:24.030] of our browsers open at one time [11:24.030 --> 11:28.270] with 10 or 15 tabs per browser at one time. [11:28.270 --> 11:29.790] Let me tell you something. [11:29.790 --> 11:32.190] Close all that stuff. [11:32.190 --> 11:34.750] Close all the things. [11:34.750 --> 11:36.770] So many things can happen. [11:36.950 --> 11:39.010] My company is a Google shop. [11:39.010 --> 11:43.150] So if I had any of those Google windows open right now, [11:43.150 --> 11:45.950] while I'm trying to do this via Zoom, [11:45.950 --> 11:47.730] the camera's gonna get confused [11:48.210 --> 11:51.070] and it's gonna say, who's trying to use me? [11:51.070 --> 11:53.230] And it's never gonna work, right? [11:53.230 --> 11:54.410] You may not even realize [11:54.410 --> 11:57.410] that some minimized window is stealing your camera. [11:57.410 --> 11:59.410] So very important. [11:59.590 --> 12:01.430] Back to the Ray story. [12:01.430 --> 12:06.030] Don't just close the windows, close the document. [12:06.150 --> 12:10.310] When I shared my screen with him as a test, [12:10.310 --> 12:14.530] guess what the first thing that popped up on his screen? [12:14.530 --> 12:16.010] I couldn't see it. [12:16.010 --> 12:19.730] So a lot of us will have many monitors open at once as well. [12:19.730 --> 12:21.570] You don't know what you have minimized. [12:21.570 --> 12:23.150] You don't even remember. [12:23.150 --> 12:25.150] It was my credit report. [12:25.210 --> 12:28.690] I gave my social security number, date of birth, [12:28.690 --> 12:32.030] credit report and credit explanation to a hacker, [12:32.030 --> 12:33.690] just like that. [12:33.690 --> 12:36.310] So close all the things. [12:36.450 --> 12:40.050] So when I say close all the things, by the way, [12:40.050 --> 12:41.430] I get the song, [12:41.430 --> 12:43.270] hack all the things stuck in my head [12:43.270 --> 12:44.750] and then I sing close all the things, [12:44.750 --> 12:47.370] but I won't sing for you today. [12:47.370 --> 12:49.390] I'll go through a few more things. [12:49.730 --> 12:51.490] Look out for distractions. [12:51.890 --> 12:56.650] My dog right now is about a foot away from me. [12:56.650 --> 12:59.010] He's always about a foot away from me. [12:59.090 --> 13:03.470] If anything happens, he will start barking, okay? [13:03.810 --> 13:06.510] Notice there's a glare on my glasses right now. [13:06.510 --> 13:08.790] So do as I say, not as I do. [13:08.790 --> 13:12.010] My dog's in the room, my glasses have a glare on them, [13:12.010 --> 13:13.850] but notice things like that. [13:13.850 --> 13:15.970] Notice what's going on in the background. [13:15.970 --> 13:17.610] If I were to take my screen down, [13:17.610 --> 13:19.430] you would see my bulletin board [13:19.430 --> 13:22.030] and it has a lot of interesting things on it [13:22.030 --> 13:23.810] and that would distract you. [13:23.810 --> 13:27.290] So if you're going for your virtual interview, [13:27.290 --> 13:29.610] just be reasonable and be aware [13:30.230 --> 13:32.710] of what could be distracting. [13:32.770 --> 13:34.990] I turned off all my phones, [13:34.990 --> 13:37.610] which by the way is hard for me [13:38.060 --> 13:40.290] because my son is at basic training [13:40.680 --> 13:44.970] and I'm trying to have my phone ready for when he calls, [13:44.970 --> 13:49.110] but turn off all your phones, turn off all the things. [13:50.530 --> 13:53.270] So be aware of noises that you make. [13:53.270 --> 13:58.310] Don't sip on your coffee, just wait until it's over. [13:58.310 --> 13:59.510] That can sound really gross, [13:59.510 --> 14:03.070] especially if whoever's interviewing you has headphones on. [14:03.070 --> 14:06.550] If I start shifting the papers around on my desk, [14:06.550 --> 14:08.050] does that sound shitty? [14:08.050 --> 14:08.930] Don't do that. [14:08.930 --> 14:10.690] Don't shift things around. [14:11.290 --> 14:13.850] Don't hold your pen in your hand like I am right now. [14:13.850 --> 14:15.550] Don't do what I'm doing. [14:15.990 --> 14:17.670] All right, another thing you can do, [14:17.670 --> 14:20.270] and actually I'll give Ray credit for this one too. [14:20.270 --> 14:21.870] I won't tell you what he calls it, [14:21.870 --> 14:23.630] but look into the camera. [14:24.050 --> 14:26.350] So I personally am distracted right now [14:26.350 --> 14:29.390] because I can see myself, I can see the slides, [14:29.390 --> 14:30.350] I can see my notes, [14:30.350 --> 14:34.150] but try to look into the camera to make this more engaging. [14:34.150 --> 14:36.310] It thinks that I can't see all of you. [14:36.330 --> 14:38.010] I love you, wish I could see your faces, [14:38.010 --> 14:39.650] but look into the camera. [14:39.650 --> 14:41.430] It makes you more engaging. [14:42.670 --> 14:47.550] Okay, so one size does not fit all. [14:47.550 --> 14:49.370] What do I mean by that? [14:49.370 --> 14:53.010] In my upcoming slides, when I go through the fundamentals, [14:53.010 --> 14:54.730] I'm going to be mentioning to you [14:55.230 --> 14:57.910] what I think are gonna be useful ways [14:57.910 --> 15:00.370] for you to be your own best advocate [15:00.370 --> 15:02.950] and be successful as a candidate. [15:02.950 --> 15:06.270] Are all the things gonna fit all the people all the time? [15:06.270 --> 15:07.830] Surely not, right? [15:07.830 --> 15:09.090] Because we already covered [15:09.090 --> 15:11.770] that many of you are in different stages. [15:11.770 --> 15:15.250] So frankly, if you're in the, I don't have a job, [15:17.650 --> 15:19.350] I'm trying to keep the lights on, [15:19.350 --> 15:20.250] I'm trying to get a paycheck, [15:20.250 --> 15:23.130] you're gonna have different standards and perspectives [15:23.130 --> 15:25.810] that are gonna make you make different decisions [15:25.810 --> 15:28.070] during your candidacy journey. [15:29.150 --> 15:31.530] And all of us, the best of us, [15:31.590 --> 15:34.290] a lot of us have found ourselves at times [15:35.670 --> 15:37.770] unemployed, not by choice, right? [15:37.770 --> 15:39.710] It's happened to me, and guess what? [15:39.910 --> 15:42.250] I had to take the first thing that came along [15:42.690 --> 15:45.370] so I could pay my bills at that time. [15:45.490 --> 15:48.690] So that's another stage that you could be in. [15:49.350 --> 15:49.630] And that's another stage that you could be in [15:49.630 --> 15:50.390] throughout your career. [15:50.390 --> 15:52.630] So just keep in mind that I'm offering to you [15:52.630 --> 15:55.430] different tools that'll make sense at different times. [15:55.430 --> 15:59.790] So my recruiting team, where I currently work, [15:59.790 --> 16:03.030] is not part of HR, and I'll tell you why. [16:03.550 --> 16:05.510] We're part of operations. [16:05.830 --> 16:09.530] And this is something that I always hoped [16:09.530 --> 16:12.330] I would be able to do, and I'm thankful that I can now, [16:12.330 --> 16:14.930] is be part of operations so that we're not working [16:14.930 --> 16:17.070] against our customers, right? [16:17.070 --> 16:20.250] Because if the talent that works at the company [16:21.710 --> 16:25.850] is just as much of a tool, commodity, if you will, [16:25.850 --> 16:27.950] as the hardware, as the software, [16:27.950 --> 16:31.050] then in fact, recruiting is part of the operations [16:31.050 --> 16:32.850] of that company, right? [16:32.850 --> 16:35.670] To provide the services, to provide the software [16:35.670 --> 16:37.630] or the products or whatever it is, [16:37.630 --> 16:38.810] you need the right tools. [16:38.810 --> 16:42.650] People are tools in this instance, in this metaphor. [16:42.650 --> 16:47.270] So when I look back at my very brief time [16:47.270 --> 16:51.670] of being a software engineer back in the early 90s [16:51.670 --> 16:54.210] using Visual Basic, as a software engineer, [16:54.210 --> 16:56.270] when you're trying to solve a problem, [16:56.270 --> 16:58.550] what did I do to solve the problem? [16:58.670 --> 16:59.990] You do intakes. [16:59.990 --> 17:02.710] You do intakes for the purpose of what? [17:02.710 --> 17:05.510] Defining requirements with all of your stakeholders, [17:05.510 --> 17:07.190] with your customers and so forth. [17:07.190 --> 17:08.290] Then you do what? [17:08.290 --> 17:11.790] You plot and you plan and you whiteboard [17:11.790 --> 17:13.350] and you try to come up with a strategy [17:13.350 --> 17:16.370] and you implement and you test and you analyze, [17:16.370 --> 17:17.310] rinse, repeat. [17:17.830 --> 17:21.290] That's also recruiting when done properly. [17:22.030 --> 17:24.850] Just listen to me. [17:25.150 --> 17:27.650] I'm going to do what as a recruiter? [17:27.770 --> 17:29.190] I'm going to talk to the, [17:29.190 --> 17:30.950] I'm gonna intake with the candidates, [17:30.950 --> 17:33.490] make it about them, figure out what their requirements are, [17:33.490 --> 17:34.750] preferences, requirements, [17:34.750 --> 17:37.050] and go rank those requirements, right? [17:37.090 --> 17:39.550] I'm gonna find out what's most important. [17:39.550 --> 17:41.150] I'm gonna do a proper write-up. [17:41.150 --> 17:42.630] I'm gonna deliver that to the customer, [17:42.630 --> 17:45.250] in this case, being the hiring manager, okay? [17:45.310 --> 17:47.510] I'm also, as a stakeholder, [17:47.630 --> 17:49.470] a stakeholder is also your customer, [17:49.470 --> 17:51.390] and that would be the hiring manager. [17:51.830 --> 17:54.750] So think of the recruiter as an engineer in this case, [17:54.750 --> 17:56.470] or as a hacker, if you will, [17:56.470 --> 17:58.810] because what they're gonna then try to do, [17:58.810 --> 18:01.450] and I don't mean hacker in the sense of, [18:01.450 --> 18:03.010] you know, people think of social engineering [18:03.010 --> 18:06.130] and manipulating and being tricky and crazy. [18:06.130 --> 18:07.330] I'm not thinking about that. [18:07.330 --> 18:09.530] What I'm thinking about is understanding [18:09.530 --> 18:13.010] the machine of the human, getting to know them, [18:13.010 --> 18:15.450] finding the requirements from each individual. [18:15.450 --> 18:17.210] Every single one of them is different. [18:17.210 --> 18:19.010] The hiring managers are different. [18:19.070 --> 18:21.870] The candidates are all different, [18:21.870 --> 18:24.610] and then finding the right match. [18:24.650 --> 18:28.210] So it's not so much hacking, manipulating, [18:28.210 --> 18:29.150] that sort of thing. [18:29.150 --> 18:30.510] It's not social engineering. [18:30.510 --> 18:32.250] It's really engineering. [18:32.250 --> 18:35.310] It's really designing and really finding the solution [18:35.310 --> 18:38.630] that will make the proper match between those two parts. [18:39.530 --> 18:41.690] To get them all the way to the finish line. [18:42.130 --> 18:44.350] So let's talk about item number one [18:44.350 --> 18:47.810] as one of the areas people want help with. [18:47.810 --> 18:48.510] They want help. [18:48.510 --> 18:50.790] I said, what do you need the most help with? [18:50.790 --> 18:51.630] Is it searching? [18:51.630 --> 18:52.310] Is it finding? [18:52.310 --> 18:53.190] Is it resume writing? [18:53.190 --> 18:56.150] Which I thought, and I used to always hear, [18:56.150 --> 18:59.930] was the big problem, but they said networking. [19:00.650 --> 19:06.530] I posted my very first job opening, printed it, [19:06.530 --> 19:09.690] faxed it to a newspaper, a paper newspaper. [19:09.810 --> 19:12.410] This is when the internet was, what a thought. [19:13.350 --> 19:16.110] And we've come a long way since then. [19:16.110 --> 19:19.190] Let's talk about what we can do in the networking area. [19:19.650 --> 19:21.470] We all know about job boards. [19:21.470 --> 19:23.250] I'm not gonna list everything on here. [19:23.250 --> 19:26.630] I am not here, oh, by the way, to promote or dox [19:26.630 --> 19:29.470] anything that I have listed here that is a product. [19:29.810 --> 19:31.310] I put that out there. [19:31.310 --> 19:34.430] But I will talk about how some of them are useful. [19:34.870 --> 19:35.750] All right. [19:36.530 --> 19:39.470] And everybody knows about job boards, [19:39.470 --> 19:43.690] but you may or may not know about state employment sites. [19:43.690 --> 19:46.590] And here's the reason I'm going to mention that to you. [19:46.910 --> 19:50.650] If you go, every single state has one, promise. [19:50.770 --> 19:53.030] Now, because they're local government [19:53.030 --> 19:55.790] municipality run websites, they might suck. [19:55.790 --> 19:57.830] They might not be user-friendly. [19:57.830 --> 19:59.990] They may not be easy to get your way around on. [19:59.990 --> 20:00.970] However, they are there. [20:00.970 --> 20:02.550] They are there and they are listing. [20:02.550 --> 20:05.770] They are supposed to list every opening. [20:05.770 --> 20:07.450] And here's how that works. [20:07.590 --> 20:08.930] All the companies that are hiring [20:10.390 --> 20:13.070] probably have an applicant tracking system. [20:13.070 --> 20:15.270] And they have scraping tools that are happening [20:15.270 --> 20:18.250] in the background and that are delivering those job openings [20:18.250 --> 20:21.370] to all the state employment boards. [20:21.570 --> 20:24.230] The reason that this can be useful to you, [20:24.230 --> 20:28.150] and when I did this talk in Tampa in person, [20:28.610 --> 20:30.030] I said, let's do an experiment. [20:30.030 --> 20:31.650] Everybody whip out your phone. [20:31.650 --> 20:33.250] So do this later if you want. [20:33.250 --> 20:34.330] Whip out your phone. [20:34.330 --> 20:37.450] Go find either your state employment job board [20:38.100 --> 20:40.550] or the state that you want, that you're targeting, [20:40.550 --> 20:42.410] that you want to move to or that you're interested in [20:42.410 --> 20:46.730] and search around and see what's posted. [20:47.210 --> 20:48.630] And you know what you're going to find out? [20:48.630 --> 20:51.130] That there's jobs that you had no idea [20:51.130 --> 20:53.450] that that company was hiring in your state. [20:53.650 --> 20:56.730] In fact, in our current environment, [20:56.730 --> 20:58.930] you are more likely to see jobs [20:58.930 --> 21:01.850] that you never knew were available where you are [21:01.850 --> 21:04.710] because they're available virtually now. [21:04.710 --> 21:06.190] So enough about that. [21:06.330 --> 21:08.290] No, I'm not getting paid by the state government. [21:08.290 --> 21:09.390] Why didn't you know that? [21:09.390 --> 21:12.630] People may not realize that that's available. [21:13.930 --> 21:15.850] So please, here's another thing. [21:15.850 --> 21:19.810] Actually, somebody split up in my last talk [21:19.810 --> 21:22.070] and told me I was, last in-person one, [21:22.070 --> 21:23.750] told me that I was incorrect. [21:24.070 --> 21:26.130] But in this case, I'm not. [21:26.130 --> 21:27.290] Don't pay. [21:27.350 --> 21:30.570] Don't pay anyone for anything. [21:30.570 --> 21:32.530] Sorry, people who get paid to do stuff, [21:32.530 --> 21:37.750] but there's way too many people willing to help you for free. [21:37.850 --> 21:40.490] Way, way, way too many people willing to help you [21:40.490 --> 21:43.250] for free with your resume, with your interview skills. [21:43.250 --> 21:45.430] It's happening right now here today at DEFCON. [21:45.430 --> 21:47.030] It happens at all the B-sides. [21:47.030 --> 21:48.410] Thanks, Kathleen. [21:48.570 --> 21:51.230] There are people who will help you [21:51.230 --> 21:53.750] learn how to interview better. [21:53.750 --> 21:55.550] There are people who will help you [21:55.550 --> 21:58.410] write your resume better, okay? [21:58.980 --> 22:04.670] In particular, one of the things listed on this slide says, [22:04.670 --> 22:07.850] hey, user, do you want to be a premium user? [22:07.850 --> 22:09.230] Pay me lots of money, [22:09.230 --> 22:12.650] and then the recruiters will be able to find you better. [22:12.770 --> 22:15.630] Actually, there's four or five people listed on this site [22:16.110 --> 22:19.610] who probably are mad because, or frights, [22:19.610 --> 22:21.610] because they want you to pay as a user. [22:21.610 --> 22:22.970] Don't do it, and I'll tell you why. [22:22.970 --> 22:24.850] Because the recruiters, because the companies [22:24.850 --> 22:27.750] who are hiring are already paying the money. [22:27.750 --> 22:31.850] Lots and lots and lots of money to find you, [22:31.850 --> 22:33.630] regardless of your account, [22:33.630 --> 22:35.290] regardless of whether or not you have one, [22:35.290 --> 22:37.990] and certainly you don't need a premium one. [22:37.990 --> 22:38.950] Promise. [22:38.990 --> 22:40.810] I just don't want you to waste your money. [22:40.810 --> 22:42.590] But you can if you want to. [22:42.730 --> 22:45.410] So I haven't recruited in a while, excuse me, [22:45.410 --> 22:51.610] but I know that pretty much all recruiters [22:51.610 --> 22:53.510] have a LinkedIn account, [22:53.510 --> 22:56.690] and we will get to how to communicate with them through that, [22:56.690 --> 22:58.470] and most of them have all of the ways [22:58.470 --> 23:01.030] that you can connect to them open as well. [23:03.190 --> 23:06.070] I know it's hard right now, but conferences are amazing. [23:06.070 --> 23:07.670] I can't speak enough about it. [23:07.670 --> 23:11.110] I can't tell you how much they have been valuable to me [23:11.110 --> 23:13.350] in well over a decade. [23:13.870 --> 23:16.530] The greater part of my success, [23:16.530 --> 23:19.950] and I'm a pretty successful recruiter, [23:19.950 --> 23:24.930] is through the conferences, through the community, [23:24.930 --> 23:26.750] and through networking. [23:26.750 --> 23:31.870] Not just the happy hiring hours and all that junk, [23:31.870 --> 23:36.010] but the industry conferences in particular [23:36.010 --> 23:38.010] are the most valuable. [23:38.010 --> 23:40.590] And if you have the opportunity ever [23:40.970 --> 23:42.690] to volunteer at one of them, [23:42.690 --> 23:47.470] I promise it's going to be multi-fold beneficial to you. [23:47.590 --> 23:51.870] It will be so advantageous to you to be a volunteer. [23:51.870 --> 23:54.290] You will learn, and you will grow, [23:54.290 --> 23:57.210] and your network will flourish when you volunteer [23:57.210 --> 23:59.270] in any way that you can. [23:59.390 --> 24:01.390] So raise your hand, volunteer. [24:02.830 --> 24:04.670] Okay, so real quick about this. [24:04.670 --> 24:07.010] You may or may not be able to see these images. [24:07.010 --> 24:09.930] I put through them together very, very quickly. [24:10.210 --> 24:14.310] I hear you when you say, the recruiters are horrible. [24:14.390 --> 24:15.070] They're horrible. [24:15.070 --> 24:17.210] They reach out to me, and they say horrible things to me, [24:17.210 --> 24:19.470] and they just say things that make no sense, [24:19.470 --> 24:21.430] and why are they asking me all these questions? [24:21.430 --> 24:22.290] I get it. [24:22.290 --> 24:23.350] I'm going to talk to you [24:23.350 --> 24:25.930] about two different perspectives here real quick. [24:26.410 --> 24:30.410] The top is a quick snapshot of my LinkedIn. [24:30.430 --> 24:32.490] My LinkedIn says, oh, by the way, [24:32.490 --> 24:35.530] if you're a recruiter, and I don't know you, [24:35.530 --> 24:38.210] I won't accept your connection request. [24:38.210 --> 24:39.710] P.S., I'm not looking for a job. [24:39.710 --> 24:41.450] It says it right there. [24:41.450 --> 24:45.850] However, you can also see this dude reaches out and says, [24:45.850 --> 24:47.330] do you want to recruit for me? [24:47.690 --> 24:49.770] So I get it, buddy. [24:49.770 --> 24:50.890] You're doing your thing. [24:50.890 --> 24:53.330] My recruiters do their thing as well. [24:53.330 --> 24:55.790] However, I also hear a lot of you saying, [24:55.790 --> 24:58.670] or I see a lot of you saying, are you serious? [24:58.670 --> 25:02.170] You just asked me if I wanted to be a Java developer, [25:02.170 --> 25:05.410] and I'm a CTO, which is kind of like that, right? [25:05.410 --> 25:07.070] No, I don't want to stop being a director [25:07.070 --> 25:09.310] and go source for you. [25:10.390 --> 25:11.310] I get it. [25:11.310 --> 25:12.090] It happens. [25:12.090 --> 25:13.010] I'm sorry. [25:13.010 --> 25:14.710] But it's also an opportunity, [25:14.710 --> 25:16.930] and this could be an opportunity, [25:16.930 --> 25:21.110] even if I hadn't time, for me to talk to this person [25:21.110 --> 25:22.770] and to say, you know what? [25:23.530 --> 25:26.190] You'll notice that, no, I'm not looking. [25:26.410 --> 25:28.310] However, I do know somebody who is, [25:28.310 --> 25:30.030] or maybe you should look in this direction [25:30.030 --> 25:30.810] or that direction. [25:30.810 --> 25:33.030] So everything's always an opportunity to network [25:33.030 --> 25:36.970] and to help others as well. [25:37.130 --> 25:39.890] Also, real quick snapshot down here. [25:39.890 --> 25:44.710] It's 15 or so people who are, [25:44.710 --> 25:47.990] all they said to me in my DMs is, [25:47.990 --> 25:52.470] hey, and that's all they said. [25:53.050 --> 25:56.050] Sorry, not answering you. [25:56.050 --> 25:57.870] So I'm not saying you have to tell me something [25:57.870 --> 26:00.670] super clever or write a whole dissertation [26:00.670 --> 26:02.210] or anything crazy like that, [26:02.210 --> 26:05.890] but you have to compel the people you're reaching out to [26:05.890 --> 26:08.890] to take the extra step. [26:09.110 --> 26:12.410] I heard, I read, you have three to five seconds. [26:12.410 --> 26:16.530] All right, so just do slightly better than just, hey, [26:16.530 --> 26:20.210] because frankly, people like recruiters [26:20.210 --> 26:24.010] who open up their DMs to you on social media [26:24.530 --> 26:27.170] are kind of making themselves vulnerable when they do that. [26:27.170 --> 26:30.090] They're doing it for you so that they can help you, [26:31.650 --> 26:35.930] but we're also opening it up to creepy things [26:35.930 --> 26:37.710] that people send us every once in a while. [26:37.710 --> 26:39.410] So be kind. [26:40.010 --> 26:43.030] Okay, so let's talk about resume real quick. [26:43.890 --> 26:46.330] Obviously be truthful on your resume. [26:47.190 --> 26:49.590] I will go through the guidelines [26:49.590 --> 26:53.490] that I think make your resume most effective for you. [26:53.490 --> 26:56.150] However, remember what I said about responses [26:56.150 --> 26:58.350] and communicating on DMs. [26:58.350 --> 27:01.030] So let me tell you what to do real quick. [27:01.230 --> 27:04.330] And I really want to hear your responses someday, [27:04.330 --> 27:05.810] however you get around to it, [27:05.810 --> 27:07.730] letting me know if this worked for you. [27:07.730 --> 27:09.130] People don't get back to you. [27:09.130 --> 27:10.490] I could be one of those people. [27:10.490 --> 27:11.310] I am guilty of it. [27:11.310 --> 27:12.610] It happens, I'm sorry. [27:12.610 --> 27:14.530] Remember that you're not the only person [27:14.530 --> 27:16.690] that they're hearing from, okay? [27:16.810 --> 27:19.190] So how can you get them to respond to you? [27:19.190 --> 27:23.410] Because I'm betting that most of them, [27:23.410 --> 27:26.790] them being the recruiters, want to talk to you. [27:26.790 --> 27:29.710] They want to help you, right? [27:29.710 --> 27:31.570] But they have a great volume of people [27:31.570 --> 27:33.210] that they're trying to help. [27:33.210 --> 27:35.570] So please remember that. [27:35.570 --> 27:36.650] You're not alone. [27:36.650 --> 27:38.550] There's a lot of people in the inbox. [27:38.550 --> 27:41.230] How can you get them to respond to your application [27:41.230 --> 27:43.290] when you apply? [27:43.310 --> 27:45.590] Apply, wait. [27:45.590 --> 27:49.630] Wait a couple days, not longer than that. [27:49.630 --> 27:54.090] Then go to LinkedIn, [27:54.090 --> 27:57.390] look for ABC Company wherever you apply. [27:57.690 --> 28:01.190] Probably a recruiter works there. [28:01.530 --> 28:03.450] So you click the people button, [28:03.450 --> 28:05.830] you look for who has the recruiter title, [28:05.830 --> 28:07.350] you send them a DM. [28:07.870 --> 28:10.590] Hi, Jim, it's me, Mary. [28:10.770 --> 28:12.970] I applied for ABC. [28:13.070 --> 28:15.890] Look for an identifier when you apply for the job [28:15.890 --> 28:18.890] that can help them look and find the job. [28:18.890 --> 28:21.330] There's usually a rec ID or something like that. [28:21.330 --> 28:23.230] Look for that, mention it. [28:23.270 --> 28:25.930] So then they're going to go look for your application. [28:26.030 --> 28:27.970] And when you reach out, you say, [28:27.970 --> 28:31.250] I applied for this, can't wait to hear back from you. [28:31.570 --> 28:32.390] Okay? [28:32.650 --> 28:36.290] Probably they're going to reply in one business day. [28:36.290 --> 28:37.450] They're going to see your message. [28:37.450 --> 28:38.190] They're going to reply. [28:38.190 --> 28:40.290] They may have never seen your application. [28:40.290 --> 28:41.450] Sorry, it happens. [28:41.450 --> 28:43.270] They probably have 50 jobs to fill. [28:43.270 --> 28:46.030] They probably have 50 applications per week [28:46.030 --> 28:48.210] or more per job. [28:48.530 --> 28:50.050] So now what are you going to do? [28:50.090 --> 28:52.210] If you don't hear back from that recruiter, [28:52.210 --> 28:55.250] first of all, if it was one of my recruiters, tell me. [28:56.890 --> 28:58.470] If it was any recruiter [28:58.470 --> 29:00.370] and they don't get back to you in a day, [29:00.370 --> 29:02.870] if you want, the next step could be [29:02.870 --> 29:04.750] look for a director of whatever [29:04.750 --> 29:06.230] the engineering department is, [29:06.230 --> 29:08.350] VP of that department as well. [29:08.350 --> 29:10.690] You say, hey, hi, Jane. [29:11.350 --> 29:13.150] I applied for this position. [29:13.150 --> 29:14.770] I reached out to so-and-so. [29:14.770 --> 29:15.890] Can't wait to hear back. [29:15.890 --> 29:18.310] Let me know if you need anything else from me. [29:18.550 --> 29:20.650] Now, really, probably, [29:20.650 --> 29:22.370] you just kind of got the recruiter in trouble, [29:22.370 --> 29:24.190] but you're probably going to hear back. [29:25.010 --> 29:26.490] Okay, so let's go really quickly [29:26.490 --> 29:28.430] through how to write your best resume. [29:28.670 --> 29:30.370] Start, please, please, please. [29:30.370 --> 29:31.410] Here's my name. [29:31.830 --> 29:33.450] Actually, with or without a name, [29:33.450 --> 29:35.030] here's the most important part. [29:35.150 --> 29:37.470] I'm a this, and I want to be a that. [29:37.470 --> 29:38.350] This is the bluff. [29:38.350 --> 29:39.950] This is the bottom line up front. [29:40.250 --> 29:42.010] I'm this, and I want to be a that. [29:42.010 --> 29:45.190] Do not assume that the person reading your resume [29:46.130 --> 29:48.630] has the time or the technical qualifications [29:50.210 --> 29:52.730] or that they're not totally fatigued out on resumes [29:53.190 --> 29:56.070] to know, to be able to look through your resume [29:56.070 --> 29:58.870] and know what do you do and what do you want to do. [29:58.870 --> 30:00.490] Hi, I'm a systems engineer [30:00.490 --> 30:02.670] looking to be a solutions architect. [30:03.110 --> 30:07.030] I am a developer looking to manage programs. [30:07.030 --> 30:10.910] Just one or two sentences, help me out. [30:11.030 --> 30:13.610] Then I know how to proceed with you. [30:13.610 --> 30:15.470] Then you're going to do your technical, [30:15.470 --> 30:16.790] put the technical in there, [30:16.790 --> 30:18.250] the technicals that you've used, [30:18.250 --> 30:20.810] the tools, the software, the hardware, [30:20.810 --> 30:22.130] then a chronological. [30:22.550 --> 30:25.490] People argue about the length of resumes. [30:26.170 --> 30:28.510] Obviously, shorter is better. [30:28.510 --> 30:29.770] It's less to have to read, [30:29.770 --> 30:32.270] but don't feel like it has to be one or two pages. [30:32.270 --> 30:34.890] We are reasonable. [30:34.930 --> 30:36.490] Frankly, if you're in the cleared space [30:36.490 --> 30:38.330] or if you would like to be in the cleared space, [30:38.330 --> 30:39.610] it's helpful to either mention [30:39.610 --> 30:41.470] that you do have a clearance [30:41.470 --> 30:44.690] and or that you are eligible and willing to get one. [30:44.690 --> 30:45.750] PDF is fine. [30:45.750 --> 30:46.790] It didn't used to be fine. [30:46.790 --> 30:48.150] It is fine now. [30:48.210 --> 30:50.590] Remember, if no one was responding, [30:50.590 --> 30:53.270] up to you to ping, send a message, [30:53.270 --> 30:55.710] send a little reminder, be patient. [30:56.950 --> 31:02.250] And customize each resume per the job within reason. [31:02.970 --> 31:04.610] Does my resume make sense? [31:04.610 --> 31:06.110] As your experience grows, [31:06.110 --> 31:09.830] it may become harder for whoever's looking at your resume [31:09.830 --> 31:13.250] to realize which thing you're trying to do. [31:13.670 --> 31:15.530] So on to the interview, [31:16.210 --> 31:19.590] try to do a little research on the company up front. [31:20.630 --> 31:22.750] It doesn't have to be that big of a deal, [31:22.750 --> 31:24.830] but just don't be so, [31:24.830 --> 31:26.150] I'm interviewing at so many places, [31:26.150 --> 31:27.990] I can't even remember who I'm talking to. [31:27.990 --> 31:29.730] Do a little bit better than that. [31:29.730 --> 31:31.350] Do a little bit of research. [31:31.870 --> 31:36.010] Try to find a way when it makes sense [31:36.010 --> 31:38.610] to answer as many of the questions as you can [31:38.610 --> 31:40.170] in the form of a story. [31:40.170 --> 31:41.110] What's your strength? [31:41.110 --> 31:42.050] What's your weakness? [31:42.050 --> 31:43.730] You know, all those kind of questions. [31:43.730 --> 31:45.410] Well, funny you should ask. [31:46.390 --> 31:49.550] One time I was building a robot [31:50.270 --> 31:53.050] and it was supposed to cross the street, [31:53.050 --> 31:56.630] but it actually blew up in the middle of the street. [31:56.630 --> 31:59.990] And so I learned that in the future, [31:59.990 --> 32:01.970] you don't cross the red and blue wires [32:01.970 --> 32:04.890] and you always bring a fire extinguisher, whatever. [32:04.890 --> 32:06.850] You just revealed to me [32:07.390 --> 32:09.310] the way that you learn from mistakes, [32:09.310 --> 32:12.530] the way that you prepare to solve problems in the future. [32:12.530 --> 32:14.170] You invited me into a little bit [32:14.170 --> 32:16.590] about your problem solving skills and so forth. [32:16.590 --> 32:19.450] So look for a way, think about it in advance. [32:19.450 --> 32:21.730] What are some stories that you can tell? [32:22.910 --> 32:25.990] You know, kind of about things that have occurred for you. [32:26.350 --> 32:29.690] Also, this is where I'm gonna ask you [32:29.690 --> 32:34.170] to give yourself a chance to be a real person [32:34.170 --> 32:36.470] and put the person on the other side of the table [32:36.950 --> 32:39.050] as a real person as well. [32:39.130 --> 32:41.390] They almost always say, [32:41.390 --> 32:42.830] do you have any questions for us? [32:42.830 --> 32:44.470] At the end, right? [32:44.470 --> 32:46.290] So hopefully they're not a grandstander [32:46.290 --> 32:48.590] and they've been trained properly how to interview [32:48.590 --> 32:50.850] and give you the opportunity to shine [32:50.850 --> 32:51.950] and not make it about them [32:51.950 --> 32:53.310] and all the things that they've done. [32:53.310 --> 32:55.550] However, make them into a person [32:55.550 --> 32:57.370] and they won't be ready for this. [32:57.370 --> 33:01.090] Say to the interviewer when they ask, [33:01.090 --> 33:02.070] do you have any questions? [33:02.070 --> 33:03.450] Yes, actually I do. [33:04.110 --> 33:08.390] When you were looking at coming to this company, [33:08.390 --> 33:12.210] did you have any reservations about working here? [33:12.430 --> 33:14.530] And how did that turn out? [33:15.970 --> 33:17.490] Wow, what a question. [33:17.510 --> 33:18.970] That's gonna tell you a lot. [33:18.970 --> 33:19.970] Maybe they're gonna say, [33:19.970 --> 33:25.350] you know, actually my kid has soccer three times a week [33:25.350 --> 33:27.390] and I was concerned about the commute [33:27.390 --> 33:30.490] and turns out they gave me a chance to do this, [33:30.490 --> 33:32.050] this and this to make that better, right? [33:32.050 --> 33:33.310] They're gonna make themselves into a person [33:33.310 --> 33:34.790] and they're gonna help you envision [33:34.790 --> 33:36.690] being an actual person working there [33:36.690 --> 33:38.830] instead of being all technical. [33:40.010 --> 33:41.610] Other favorite questions. [33:41.990 --> 33:43.970] Yeah, actually tell me, [33:43.970 --> 33:45.110] I see you've been, [33:45.110 --> 33:46.150] how long have you been working here? [33:46.150 --> 33:46.790] Three years? [33:46.790 --> 33:47.410] Cool. [33:47.410 --> 33:48.690] What have you learned? [33:50.350 --> 33:51.650] Wait for it. [33:51.710 --> 33:53.690] What a revealing thing for them [33:53.690 --> 33:55.730] to have the opportunity to tell you. [33:55.730 --> 33:57.450] What have they learned here? [33:57.450 --> 33:58.970] Because if they haven't learned anything, [33:58.970 --> 34:05.360] it's gonna be very revealing, right? [34:05.420 --> 34:08.160] So I'm not telling you to trick them, right? [34:08.160 --> 34:09.740] This isn't a social thing. [34:09.740 --> 34:11.460] This is making them into a person. [34:11.460 --> 34:13.340] They're really gonna tell you. [34:14.240 --> 34:19.600] I often liken interviewing to dating. [34:19.600 --> 34:21.840] I actually don't have any dating experience, [34:21.840 --> 34:24.320] but I imagine that if you went on a date, [34:25.680 --> 34:28.160] and you sat down and you said, [34:28.160 --> 34:29.420] I love kids. [34:29.540 --> 34:31.480] I love traveling. [34:31.900 --> 34:37.140] I go to church every Sunday. [34:37.400 --> 34:39.360] And none of those things are true. [34:39.360 --> 34:42.560] You have probably just guaranteed [34:42.560 --> 34:44.400] that that relationship isn't gonna work out. [34:44.400 --> 34:46.360] So don't show up at the interview and be like, [34:46.360 --> 34:48.500] I love solving problems. [34:48.840 --> 34:50.520] I'm an independent worker. [34:50.520 --> 34:52.940] Actually, I love working on teams. [34:52.940 --> 34:55.540] All these things that you're saying about yourself, [34:55.540 --> 34:57.360] if they're not true, [34:57.360 --> 35:00.460] you're hurting you and them, right? [35:00.460 --> 35:02.440] So make it real. [35:02.440 --> 35:03.200] And here's the thing, [35:03.200 --> 35:05.340] you might reveal something about yourself, [35:05.340 --> 35:08.180] and then the interviewer might say, [35:08.180 --> 35:09.420] you know what? [35:10.700 --> 35:13.480] James, what you told me means [35:13.480 --> 35:16.300] that you won't be a good fit for this. [35:16.380 --> 35:19.060] But turns out, you're a perfect fit for this other thing [35:19.060 --> 35:21.860] that we didn't even know we should be talking about, right? [35:21.860 --> 35:23.540] So if they're doing a good job, [35:23.540 --> 35:26.460] the more you tell them about the real you, [35:26.460 --> 35:28.580] the better off you both will end up. [35:29.500 --> 35:31.300] Okay, so really, really, really, really, [35:31.300 --> 35:32.320] I want you to be yourself. [35:32.320 --> 35:33.720] I want you to be honest. [35:34.080 --> 35:37.520] My hair was blue at my last interview. [35:37.720 --> 35:39.180] It is what it is. [35:39.220 --> 35:40.920] It's okay to pivot. [35:40.920 --> 35:43.620] I mentioned that I was a software engineer. [35:43.620 --> 35:44.980] I ran a help desk, right? [35:44.980 --> 35:46.320] It's okay to change. [35:46.320 --> 35:47.040] It's okay. [35:47.040 --> 35:50.120] There are so many opportunities out there. [35:50.120 --> 35:52.240] It is okay to pivot. [35:52.240 --> 35:57.220] I want you to find your next best opportunity. [35:57.360 --> 35:58.980] I really, really do. [35:58.980 --> 36:00.820] I want you to be where you're happy [36:00.820 --> 36:02.300] and where you're comfortable. [36:02.440 --> 36:05.660] And I think there's enough opportunities out there [36:05.660 --> 36:06.800] for that to happen. [36:06.800 --> 36:10.240] So really, really, be who you are, do what you love. [36:10.600 --> 36:15.940] So real quick, I think this is my last spot, negotiating. [36:15.940 --> 36:19.640] People really, really struggle in this area. [36:19.640 --> 36:22.180] I have screwed up in this area. [36:22.180 --> 36:23.940] I have undersold myself. [36:23.960 --> 36:27.280] I have, and I've seen others do it as well. [36:27.580 --> 36:28.720] Here's what's up. [36:29.040 --> 36:31.920] Do not tell anyone how much money you make. [36:31.920 --> 36:32.960] Don't do it. [36:32.960 --> 36:35.000] A, they shouldn't be asking. [36:35.480 --> 36:41.260] And every federally mandated ordinance in the U.S., anyway, [36:41.260 --> 36:43.320] says that they can't ask you. [36:43.320 --> 36:45.000] So I guess I should preface that. [36:45.000 --> 36:46.640] A lot of you aren't in the U.S. [36:46.640 --> 36:48.980] Sorry, that applied to the U.S. [36:48.980 --> 36:50.340] I don't know the laws everywhere. [36:50.340 --> 36:53.400] But I will say this, regardless of where you are, [36:53.400 --> 36:55.960] the amount of money that you currently make [36:55.960 --> 36:59.120] has absolutely nothing to do [36:59.120 --> 37:02.360] with the amount of money you should be making [37:02.360 --> 37:05.700] or could be making, okay? [37:05.700 --> 37:06.800] Because it doesn't speak [37:06.800 --> 37:08.660] to your bonafide occupational qualifications [37:08.660 --> 37:10.440] or your education or your certifications [37:10.440 --> 37:12.320] or the most important thing [37:12.320 --> 37:13.800] that every single one of you has to offer [37:13.800 --> 37:18.260] is your willingness and your ability to do the job. [37:19.100 --> 37:21.520] Regardless of what you have done, right? [37:21.520 --> 37:24.300] What are you willing to do and what are you able to do? [37:24.340 --> 37:26.000] Right? What can you learn? [37:26.000 --> 37:26.600] You know what? [37:26.600 --> 37:28.840] I don't even know how to spell Python, [37:28.840 --> 37:30.380] but I know how to script. [37:30.820 --> 37:34.740] I just proved to you that I could be a Python developer. [37:34.740 --> 37:36.020] I'm willing, I'm able. [37:36.080 --> 37:38.600] So please, don't tell them what you make. [37:38.600 --> 37:41.180] Think about, but also answer the question [37:41.810 --> 37:43.700] when they ask, what do you want to make? [37:43.700 --> 37:47.060] And think about how you're going to deliver that question. [37:47.160 --> 37:48.780] What matters to you? [37:48.780 --> 37:51.120] More than just your paycheck. [37:51.240 --> 37:52.260] Is it shares? [37:52.260 --> 37:54.480] Is it 401k? [37:54.560 --> 37:56.380] Is it flexibility? [37:56.600 --> 37:58.940] Is it the ability to go remote? [37:58.940 --> 38:00.800] Is it performance bonuses? [38:00.800 --> 38:02.160] Incentive compensation? [38:02.160 --> 38:04.040] Think about the total package of things [38:04.040 --> 38:06.060] that matters to you in the long run. [38:06.060 --> 38:09.000] Is it the insurance premiums? [38:09.000 --> 38:10.940] Man, I'll tell you what. [38:11.580 --> 38:14.500] The difference, I'm not going to dox anyone, [38:14.500 --> 38:16.960] but between two paychecks at two different companies [38:16.960 --> 38:19.260] where the salaries were very similar, [38:19.260 --> 38:22.900] but the premiums were significantly different. [38:22.900 --> 38:24.860] Boy, that makes a huge difference. [38:25.420 --> 38:28.140] So, okay. [38:28.140 --> 38:30.460] And that's pretty much it. [38:30.460 --> 38:32.040] So let's recap. [38:32.040 --> 38:33.780] Always be open. [38:34.660 --> 38:36.860] Be your own best advocate. [38:36.980 --> 38:37.800] I get it. [38:37.800 --> 38:39.300] Descriptions suck. [38:39.300 --> 38:40.940] Sometimes so do resumes. [38:40.940 --> 38:43.340] Let's find a way to meet in the middle. [38:43.340 --> 38:44.660] Be exactly who you are. [38:44.660 --> 38:45.680] Be yourself. [38:45.680 --> 38:47.060] You is good enough. [38:47.940 --> 38:49.580] Notice how you're being treated [38:49.580 --> 38:52.260] all throughout your candidate experience. [38:52.420 --> 38:54.220] That's very, very telling. [38:54.480 --> 38:57.340] Remember that these challenges are like the ones [38:57.340 --> 39:00.140] that you will face as an engineer, right? [39:00.280 --> 39:01.960] Look at them that way. [39:01.960 --> 39:03.980] And you can't make them go away, [39:03.980 --> 39:05.740] but you can hopefully beat them. [39:05.940 --> 39:07.060] Thank you, DEF CON. [39:07.060 --> 39:08.420] Thank you, Kathleen. [39:08.640 --> 39:11.500] And if there's a way for us to do questions and answers [39:11.500 --> 39:14.660] in business court or something, I am always open. [39:15.680 --> 39:16.460] Thank you. [39:16.960 --> 39:18.640] Thanks so much, Kirsten. [39:18.640 --> 39:21.220] I really appreciate all of your great points. [39:21.220 --> 39:25.380] You've been just an amazing asset to the entire community. [39:25.380 --> 39:29.060] Yes, everyone can ask you questions in Discord channel, [39:29.060 --> 39:31.120] and I'm sure you'll be hanging around the con [39:31.120 --> 39:32.360] throughout the entire weekend [39:32.360 --> 39:34.320] and can answer other questions. [39:34.420 --> 39:36.140] Please do connect with her. [39:36.140 --> 39:39.640] She's always open to answering questions. [39:39.640 --> 39:44.120] And be sure to follow us on Twitter at Hacking Career. [39:44.120 --> 39:46.000] And that's it for today. [39:46.000 --> 39:47.500] Thanks so much, everybody.