WEBVTT 00:04.380 --> 00:06.980 Welcome to Career Hacking Village. 00:07.160 --> 00:08.620 My name is Kathleen Smith. 00:08.620 --> 00:11.020 I'm one of the Village team members. 00:11.020 --> 00:16.580 We're so happy that we finally have been able to bring a Career Hacking Village to DEF CON. 00:16.580 --> 00:26.380 As we know, many of us are looking for a job and by recent studies, there were over 43% of people said they did not know how to find a job. 00:26.380 --> 00:38.580 So I'm very thankful to invite Kirsten Renner as one of the best recruiters in our community to sort of share some of the best practices, especially now. 00:38.580 --> 00:42.420 Please remember that we'll be doing discussion in Discord. 00:42.420 --> 00:52.980 We also have resume review and career coaching going on from 10 to 1700 on Friday and 12 to 1600 on Saturday. 00:52.980 --> 00:55.330 So without further ado, Kirsten. 00:57.150 --> 00:58.690 Hello, DEF CON. 00:59.290 --> 01:06.170 I know that we all wish we were in Vegas right now, but let's make the best of this. 01:06.170 --> 01:13.930 This is actually the first summer in 11 years that I am not there doing summer camp. 01:13.930 --> 01:18.930 I know that for a lot of you, it's 20 or more years. 01:18.930 --> 01:23.790 So this is crazy, but let's get through it and make the best of it. 01:23.790 --> 01:27.790 So this is my talk, but I still need a job. 01:33.860 --> 01:44.690 So this will be a conversation for the active candidates and also, and mostly probably, for the passive candidates as well. 01:44.690 --> 02:03.430 So I'm going to also offer the perspective of how this can be helpful, not just for candidates, but if you are trying to fill a job or if you have in the past, if you will in the future, this is going to be relevant to you too, and here's why. 02:04.230 --> 02:16.550 Think about how this is going to offer to you, noticing what are the challenges that candidates are facing so that you can help make things better for them. 02:16.670 --> 02:22.790 So we will go through initially what's new in our current times. 02:23.130 --> 02:36.890 Although I will say we're so far into this that we're probably all sort of getting to the point of being an expert at all the new things that we have to deal with, but I will touch upon them quickly. 02:36.890 --> 02:38.670 I will go through some tips. 02:38.770 --> 02:56.890 One thing that I want to do differently is show you how to hopefully take advantage of and use to your advantage how the new circumstances can actually have a positive twist for you as well. 02:56.890 --> 03:06.770 And then we will go through what I like to call the fundamentals, the things that all candidates face and talk about on a regular basis. 03:13.080 --> 03:14.830 So who am I? 03:14.830 --> 03:18.070 As Kathleen mentioned, I am Karsten Renner. 03:18.070 --> 03:25.890 I am the Director of Recruiting at Novetta, an advanced analytics and cybersecurity firm. 03:25.890 --> 03:31.990 I'm a college dropout, started in software engineering, and then I went into IT. 03:32.210 --> 03:33.870 And how did that lead to recruiting? 03:33.870 --> 03:47.470 Well, when I was building help desks and managing them, that's my favorite part, was building the teams, finding the people to bring on to the teams. 03:47.470 --> 03:53.090 And so here I am 20 years later, random personal thing. 03:53.090 --> 03:55.010 I run ultras. 03:55.010 --> 03:56.890 Ultras are anything longer than a marathon. 03:56.890 --> 04:02.650 I've done about a dozen of them in the last 10 years. 04:02.650 --> 04:07.790 And I have a almost disturbing love for crime TV. 04:07.790 --> 04:12.290 Also a proud Army mom over the last week. 04:13.310 --> 04:19.550 So I'm gonna talk to you from a few different perspectives. 04:19.550 --> 04:33.190 So I have seen and heard and read many intelligent individuals offering useful advice from their perspectives on how to best find a job in our community specifically. 04:33.470 --> 04:43.330 And they're coming from the perspective of having been a candidate, or a hiring manager, or in some cases, a recruiter. 04:43.330 --> 04:48.930 So I just happen to have been all of those things, and I still am a couple of those things. 04:48.930 --> 05:08.070 So I'm hoping that I can take my 20-ish years of doing this and offer to you the things that I have seen definitely work and definitely not work, and make those into tools that are gonna work for you. 05:09.270 --> 05:19.630 So speaking of perspectives, the survey that you see on the screen is something that I put up on Twitter and LinkedIn. 05:19.630 --> 05:24.310 And anytime you see a survey in my slides, that's where I got it from. 05:24.310 --> 05:27.090 Otherwise, I would have stated the source. 05:27.310 --> 05:48.390 So I feel like it was a few months ago, I heard, and this is not an exact quote, but Alyssa Miller was talking about a survey that she had put out for a talk that she was doing, I believe at RSA, which she noted. 05:48.550 --> 05:59.770 And she said something along the lines of that there's a certain amount of responses that constitutes data, maybe that makes it scientific. 05:59.770 --> 06:04.290 So this is not thousands or tens of thousands of responses. 06:04.290 --> 06:06.330 This is probably hundreds of responses. 06:06.330 --> 06:08.330 This is just little snapshots. 06:08.330 --> 06:17.910 This is before I started to do, or to put together the talk submissions that I was gonna do for this year. 06:18.650 --> 06:27.750 I wanted my community, the people that I speak to, the people that I interact with in the community to tell me what they face the most. 06:27.750 --> 06:29.410 What are they looking at the most? 06:29.410 --> 06:32.070 What do they want me to focus on and talk about? 06:32.070 --> 06:34.010 So that was the purpose of these. 06:37.210 --> 06:41.570 So again, I was actually a little bit surprised when I was looking at this. 06:43.370 --> 06:45.110 Are you actively looking? 06:45.110 --> 06:46.770 Are you passively looking? 06:46.770 --> 06:49.850 Where are you coming from, from a candidate's perspective? 06:50.090 --> 06:53.790 And I did get Dirk Vader's permission to quote him. 06:53.850 --> 07:00.530 Apparently when he responded to the survey, he responded with the comment that it is really good. 07:00.530 --> 07:02.170 And I couldn't come up with a better way to say it. 07:02.170 --> 07:03.670 So I asked him if I could quote him. 07:03.670 --> 07:14.390 He said, yes, it is really good career hygiene to always be at least kind of keeping your ears and eyes open, right? 07:14.390 --> 07:15.910 That's how we do this. 07:15.910 --> 07:31.470 And as a random side note, technically, I met the CEO of my current company when I was happily employed and had no interest in ever looking for another job ever again. 07:31.470 --> 07:33.950 I was gonna retire from the job where I was. 07:34.570 --> 07:40.250 So I think that's just a really good testimony to why you should always keep your eyes open. 07:40.650 --> 07:44.330 And we met at the Mandalay Pool. 07:44.920 --> 07:46.130 Yay, DEF CON. 07:47.110 --> 07:51.390 Okay, so things are kind of different now, aren't they? 07:52.110 --> 07:53.770 Interviews are happening differently. 07:53.870 --> 07:55.670 Everything's happening differently. 07:56.030 --> 08:01.930 So we're gonna go pretty quickly through some of the tips and reminders. 08:01.930 --> 08:07.430 And I am Italian, so I will tell a funny story or I find it funny. 08:07.430 --> 08:09.370 I'll probably laugh at myself as well. 08:09.850 --> 08:28.650 But before we go through the tips, I want you to know that one of the things that I am very passionate about when it comes to recruiting and everyone that works for me, all the recruiters that work for me will tell you, this is how business is done. 08:28.690 --> 08:33.990 You have to treat your candidates like they are the most important thing. 08:33.990 --> 08:46.790 The candidate experience is the basis upon which all the processes that I design and implement and analyze are based on the ideal candidate experience. 08:46.790 --> 09:01.630 So when I did an iteration of this presentation at B-Side San Antonio a few weeks ago, people on Discord were commenting while I was giving the presentation as opposed to reporting it the way I am now. 09:01.690 --> 09:03.790 And they were shocked. 09:03.790 --> 09:13.210 They were shocked when I said that the recruiters should always make you feel like they are your advocate and they care about you. 09:13.210 --> 09:15.770 And this is about you, the candidate. 09:15.770 --> 09:17.930 It shouldn't be shocking to you. 09:17.930 --> 09:22.710 It upsets me that it is shocking and we can make this better, okay? 09:22.710 --> 09:25.970 So we together will make this better. 09:26.190 --> 09:50.130 Keep in mind that throughout your experience as a candidate, one thing that is really an advantage to you is that your future employer, which is everyone that you're interviewing with and everybody that you're talking to, is gonna reveal to you in all likelihood what it will be like to work for them, 09:50.130 --> 09:51.350 I believe. 09:51.350 --> 09:51.590 Right? 09:51.590 --> 10:02.610 And on the other hand, as a recruiter, the way that you're behaving as a candidate is going to give me a little view into what it's like to work with you, right? 10:02.610 --> 10:05.290 So let's be kind both ways. 10:05.290 --> 10:07.050 Let's be reasonable both ways. 10:07.050 --> 10:20.350 Again, keep in mind, if they aren't flexible, if they aren't accommodating, if they won't give you a break and let you be a human and meet you halfway, what's it gonna be like to work there? 10:20.350 --> 10:25.230 So keep that in mind while you're facing challenges in our current environment. 10:25.250 --> 10:30.630 So let's just go through a couple of the pointers. 10:30.630 --> 10:33.670 I, since this is recorded, you can take a screenshot of this. 10:33.670 --> 10:34.970 You can save it. 10:34.970 --> 10:37.210 I won't read it all verbatim. 10:37.210 --> 10:39.970 However, test, test, test. 10:39.970 --> 10:43.730 I logged in eight minutes early for this recording. 10:43.730 --> 10:44.770 And guess what? 10:44.770 --> 10:46.190 I had to fix some things. 10:46.190 --> 10:47.790 Some things weren't working. 10:47.790 --> 10:50.070 So test your stuff, right? 10:50.070 --> 10:53.890 Test your camera, test your microphone, test everything. 10:53.970 --> 10:56.230 I will also tell, here's a funny story. 10:56.230 --> 11:14.470 When I was presenting at the Many Hats Club Isolation Con earlier this year, my first ever virtual presentation, by the way, I logged in to Green Room and Ray Redacted was there and he said, let's test it out. 11:14.470 --> 11:15.650 Let's see. 11:16.030 --> 11:28.270 So many of us will have many iterations of our browsers open at one time with 10 or 15 tabs per browser at one time. 11:28.270 --> 11:29.790 Let me tell you something. 11:29.790 --> 11:32.190 Close all that stuff. 11:32.190 --> 11:34.750 Close all the things. 11:34.750 --> 11:36.770 So many things can happen. 11:36.950 --> 11:39.010 My company is a Google shop. 11:39.010 --> 11:51.070 So if I had any of those Google windows open right now, while I'm trying to do this via Zoom, the camera's gonna get confused and it's gonna say, who's trying to use me? 11:51.070 --> 11:53.230 And it's never gonna work, right? 11:53.230 --> 11:57.410 You may not even realize that some minimized window is stealing your camera. 11:57.410 --> 11:59.410 So very important. 11:59.590 --> 12:01.430 Back to the Ray story. 12:01.430 --> 12:06.030 Don't just close the windows, close the document. 12:06.150 --> 12:14.530 When I shared my screen with him as a test, guess what the first thing that popped up on his screen? 12:14.530 --> 12:16.010 I couldn't see it. 12:16.010 --> 12:19.730 So a lot of us will have many monitors open at once as well. 12:19.730 --> 12:21.570 You don't know what you have minimized. 12:21.570 --> 12:23.150 You don't even remember. 12:23.150 --> 12:25.150 It was my credit report. 12:25.210 --> 12:33.690 I gave my social security number, date of birth, credit report and credit explanation to a hacker, just like that. 12:33.690 --> 12:36.310 So close all the things. 12:36.450 --> 12:47.370 So when I say close all the things, by the way, I get the song, hack all the things stuck in my head and then I sing close all the things, but I won't sing for you today. 12:47.370 --> 12:49.390 I'll go through a few more things. 12:49.730 --> 12:51.490 Look out for distractions. 12:51.890 --> 12:56.650 My dog right now is about a foot away from me. 12:56.650 --> 12:59.010 He's always about a foot away from me. 12:59.090 --> 13:03.470 If anything happens, he will start barking, okay? 13:03.810 --> 13:06.510 Notice there's a glare on my glasses right now. 13:06.510 --> 13:08.790 So do as I say, not as I do. 13:08.790 --> 13:13.850 My dog's in the room, my glasses have a glare on them, but notice things like that. 13:13.850 --> 13:15.970 Notice what's going on in the background. 13:15.970 --> 13:23.810 If I were to take my screen down, you would see my bulletin board and it has a lot of interesting things on it and that would distract you. 13:23.810 --> 13:32.710 So if you're going for your virtual interview, just be reasonable and be aware of what could be distracting. 13:32.770 --> 13:49.110 I turned off all my phones, which by the way is hard for me because my son is at basic training and I'm trying to have my phone ready for when he calls, but turn off all your phones, turn off all the things. 13:50.530 --> 13:53.270 So be aware of noises that you make. 13:53.270 --> 13:58.310 Don't sip on your coffee, just wait until it's over. 13:58.310 --> 14:03.070 That can sound really gross, especially if whoever's interviewing you has headphones on. 14:03.070 --> 14:08.050 If I start shifting the papers around on my desk, does that sound shitty? 14:08.050 --> 14:08.930 Don't do that. 14:08.930 --> 14:10.690 Don't shift things around. 14:11.290 --> 14:13.850 Don't hold your pen in your hand like I am right now. 14:13.850 --> 14:15.550 Don't do what I'm doing. 14:15.990 --> 14:20.270 All right, another thing you can do, and actually I'll give Ray credit for this one too. 14:20.270 --> 14:23.630 I won't tell you what he calls it, but look into the camera. 14:24.050 --> 14:34.150 So I personally am distracted right now because I can see myself, I can see the slides, I can see my notes, but try to look into the camera to make this more engaging. 14:34.150 --> 14:36.310 It thinks that I can't see all of you. 14:36.330 --> 14:39.650 I love you, wish I could see your faces, but look into the camera. 14:39.650 --> 14:41.430 It makes you more engaging. 14:42.670 --> 14:47.550 Okay, so one size does not fit all. 14:47.550 --> 14:49.370 What do I mean by that? 14:49.370 --> 15:02.950 In my upcoming slides, when I go through the fundamentals, I'm going to be mentioning to you what I think are gonna be useful ways for you to be your own best advocate and be successful as a candidate. 15:02.950 --> 15:06.270 Are all the things gonna fit all the people all the time? 15:06.270 --> 15:07.830 Surely not, right? 15:07.830 --> 15:11.770 Because we already covered that many of you are in different stages. 15:11.770 --> 15:28.070 So frankly, if you're in the, I don't have a job, I'm trying to keep the lights on, I'm trying to get a paycheck, you're gonna have different standards and perspectives that are gonna make you make different decisions during your candidacy journey. 15:29.150 --> 15:37.770 And all of us, the best of us, a lot of us have found ourselves at times unemployed, not by choice, right? 15:37.770 --> 15:39.710 It's happened to me, and guess what? 15:39.910 --> 15:45.370 I had to take the first thing that came along so I could pay my bills at that time. 15:45.490 --> 15:48.690 So that's another stage that you could be in. 15:49.350 --> 15:50.390 And that's another stage that you could be in throughout your career. 15:50.390 --> 15:55.430 So just keep in mind that I'm offering to you different tools that'll make sense at different times. 15:55.430 --> 16:03.030 So my recruiting team, where I currently work, is not part of HR, and I'll tell you why. 16:03.550 --> 16:05.510 We're part of operations. 16:05.830 --> 16:17.070 And this is something that I always hoped I would be able to do, and I'm thankful that I can now, is be part of operations so that we're not working against our customers, right? 16:17.070 --> 16:32.850 Because if the talent that works at the company is just as much of a tool, commodity, if you will, as the hardware, as the software, then in fact, recruiting is part of the operations of that company, right? 16:32.850 --> 16:38.810 To provide the services, to provide the software or the products or whatever it is, you need the right tools. 16:38.810 --> 16:42.650 People are tools in this instance, in this metaphor. 16:42.650 --> 16:58.550 So when I look back at my very brief time of being a software engineer back in the early 90s using Visual Basic, as a software engineer, when you're trying to solve a problem, what did I do to solve the problem? 16:58.670 --> 16:59.990 You do intakes. 16:59.990 --> 17:02.710 You do intakes for the purpose of what? 17:02.710 --> 17:07.190 Defining requirements with all of your stakeholders, with your customers and so forth. 17:07.190 --> 17:08.290 Then you do what? 17:08.290 --> 17:17.310 You plot and you plan and you whiteboard and you try to come up with a strategy and you implement and you test and you analyze, rinse, repeat. 17:17.830 --> 17:21.290 That's also recruiting when done properly. 17:22.030 --> 17:24.850 Just listen to me. 17:25.150 --> 17:27.650 I'm going to do what as a recruiter? 17:27.770 --> 17:37.050 I'm going to talk to the, I'm gonna intake with the candidates, make it about them, figure out what their requirements are, preferences, requirements, and go rank those requirements, right? 17:37.090 --> 17:39.550 I'm gonna find out what's most important. 17:39.550 --> 17:41.150 I'm gonna do a proper write-up. 17:41.150 --> 17:45.250 I'm gonna deliver that to the customer, in this case, being the hiring manager, okay? 17:45.310 --> 17:51.390 I'm also, as a stakeholder, a stakeholder is also your customer, and that would be the hiring manager. 17:51.830 --> 18:06.130 So think of the recruiter as an engineer in this case, or as a hacker, if you will, because what they're gonna then try to do, and I don't mean hacker in the sense of, you know, people think of social engineering and manipulating and being tricky and crazy. 18:06.130 --> 18:07.330 I'm not thinking about that. 18:07.330 --> 18:15.450 What I'm thinking about is understanding the machine of the human, getting to know them, finding the requirements from each individual. 18:15.450 --> 18:17.210 Every single one of them is different. 18:17.210 --> 18:19.010 The hiring managers are different. 18:19.070 --> 18:24.610 The candidates are all different, and then finding the right match. 18:24.650 --> 18:29.150 So it's not so much hacking, manipulating, that sort of thing. 18:29.150 --> 18:30.510 It's not social engineering. 18:30.510 --> 18:32.250 It's really engineering. 18:32.250 --> 18:38.630 It's really designing and really finding the solution that will make the proper match between those two parts. 18:39.530 --> 18:41.690 To get them all the way to the finish line. 18:42.130 --> 18:47.810 So let's talk about item number one as one of the areas people want help with. 18:47.810 --> 18:48.510 They want help. 18:48.510 --> 18:50.790 I said, what do you need the most help with? 18:50.790 --> 18:51.630 Is it searching? 18:51.630 --> 18:52.310 Is it finding? 18:52.310 --> 18:53.190 Is it resume writing? 18:53.190 --> 18:59.930 Which I thought, and I used to always hear, was the big problem, but they said networking. 19:00.650 --> 19:09.690 I posted my very first job opening, printed it, faxed it to a newspaper, a paper newspaper. 19:09.810 --> 19:12.410 This is when the internet was, what a thought. 19:13.350 --> 19:16.110 And we've come a long way since then. 19:16.110 --> 19:19.190 Let's talk about what we can do in the networking area. 19:19.650 --> 19:21.470 We all know about job boards. 19:21.470 --> 19:23.250 I'm not gonna list everything on here. 19:23.250 --> 19:29.470 I am not here, oh, by the way, to promote or dox anything that I have listed here that is a product. 19:29.810 --> 19:31.310 I put that out there. 19:31.310 --> 19:34.430 But I will talk about how some of them are useful. 19:34.870 --> 19:35.750 All right. 19:36.530 --> 19:43.690 And everybody knows about job boards, but you may or may not know about state employment sites. 19:43.690 --> 19:46.590 And here's the reason I'm going to mention that to you. 19:46.910 --> 19:50.650 If you go, every single state has one, promise. 19:50.770 --> 19:55.790 Now, because they're local government municipality run websites, they might suck. 19:55.790 --> 19:57.830 They might not be user-friendly. 19:57.830 --> 19:59.990 They may not be easy to get your way around on. 19:59.990 --> 20:00.970 However, they are there. 20:00.970 --> 20:02.550 They are there and they are listing. 20:02.550 --> 20:05.770 They are supposed to list every opening. 20:05.770 --> 20:07.450 And here's how that works. 20:07.590 --> 20:13.070 All the companies that are hiring probably have an applicant tracking system. 20:13.070 --> 20:21.370 And they have scraping tools that are happening in the background and that are delivering those job openings to all the state employment boards. 20:21.570 --> 20:30.030 The reason that this can be useful to you, and when I did this talk in Tampa in person, I said, let's do an experiment. 20:30.030 --> 20:31.650 Everybody whip out your phone. 20:31.650 --> 20:33.250 So do this later if you want. 20:33.250 --> 20:34.330 Whip out your phone. 20:34.330 --> 20:46.730 Go find either your state employment job board or the state that you want, that you're targeting, that you want to move to or that you're interested in and search around and see what's posted. 20:47.210 --> 20:48.630 And you know what you're going to find out? 20:48.630 --> 20:53.450 That there's jobs that you had no idea that that company was hiring in your state. 20:53.650 --> 21:04.710 In fact, in our current environment, you are more likely to see jobs that you never knew were available where you are because they're available virtually now. 21:04.710 --> 21:06.190 So enough about that. 21:06.330 --> 21:08.290 No, I'm not getting paid by the state government. 21:08.290 --> 21:09.390 Why didn't you know that? 21:09.390 --> 21:12.630 People may not realize that that's available. 21:13.930 --> 21:15.850 So please, here's another thing. 21:15.850 --> 21:23.750 Actually, somebody split up in my last talk and told me I was, last in-person one, told me that I was incorrect. 21:24.070 --> 21:26.130 But in this case, I'm not. 21:26.130 --> 21:27.290 Don't pay. 21:27.350 --> 21:30.570 Don't pay anyone for anything. 21:30.570 --> 21:37.750 Sorry, people who get paid to do stuff, but there's way too many people willing to help you for free. 21:37.850 --> 21:43.250 Way, way, way too many people willing to help you for free with your resume, with your interview skills. 21:43.250 --> 21:45.430 It's happening right now here today at DEFCON. 21:45.430 --> 21:47.030 It happens at all the B-sides. 21:47.030 --> 21:48.410 Thanks, Kathleen. 21:48.570 --> 21:53.750 There are people who will help you learn how to interview better. 21:53.750 --> 21:58.410 There are people who will help you write your resume better, okay? 21:58.980 --> 22:07.850 In particular, one of the things listed on this slide says, hey, user, do you want to be a premium user? 22:07.850 --> 22:12.650 Pay me lots of money, and then the recruiters will be able to find you better. 22:12.770 --> 22:21.610 Actually, there's four or five people listed on this site who probably are mad because, or frights, because they want you to pay as a user. 22:21.610 --> 22:22.970 Don't do it, and I'll tell you why. 22:22.970 --> 22:27.750 Because the recruiters, because the companies who are hiring are already paying the money. 22:27.750 --> 22:37.990 Lots and lots and lots of money to find you, regardless of your account, regardless of whether or not you have one, and certainly you don't need a premium one. 22:37.990 --> 22:38.950 Promise. 22:38.990 --> 22:40.810 I just don't want you to waste your money. 22:40.810 --> 22:42.590 But you can if you want to. 22:42.730 --> 23:01.030 So I haven't recruited in a while, excuse me, but I know that pretty much all recruiters have a LinkedIn account, and we will get to how to communicate with them through that, and most of them have all of the ways that you can connect to them open as well. 23:03.190 --> 23:06.070 I know it's hard right now, but conferences are amazing. 23:06.070 --> 23:07.670 I can't speak enough about it. 23:07.670 --> 23:13.350 I can't tell you how much they have been valuable to me in well over a decade. 23:13.870 --> 23:26.750 The greater part of my success, and I'm a pretty successful recruiter, is through the conferences, through the community, and through networking. 23:26.750 --> 23:38.010 Not just the happy hiring hours and all that junk, but the industry conferences in particular are the most valuable. 23:38.010 --> 23:47.470 And if you have the opportunity ever to volunteer at one of them, I promise it's going to be multi-fold beneficial to you. 23:47.590 --> 23:51.870 It will be so advantageous to you to be a volunteer. 23:51.870 --> 23:59.270 You will learn, and you will grow, and your network will flourish when you volunteer in any way that you can. 23:59.390 --> 24:01.390 So raise your hand, volunteer. 24:02.830 --> 24:04.670 Okay, so real quick about this. 24:04.670 --> 24:07.010 You may or may not be able to see these images. 24:07.010 --> 24:09.930 I put through them together very, very quickly. 24:10.210 --> 24:14.310 I hear you when you say, the recruiters are horrible. 24:14.390 --> 24:15.070 They're horrible. 24:15.070 --> 24:21.430 They reach out to me, and they say horrible things to me, and they just say things that make no sense, and why are they asking me all these questions? 24:21.430 --> 24:22.290 I get it. 24:22.290 --> 24:25.930 I'm going to talk to you about two different perspectives here real quick. 24:26.410 --> 24:30.410 The top is a quick snapshot of my LinkedIn. 24:30.430 --> 24:38.210 My LinkedIn says, oh, by the way, if you're a recruiter, and I don't know you, I won't accept your connection request. 24:38.210 --> 24:39.710 P.S., I'm not looking for a job. 24:39.710 --> 24:41.450 It says it right there. 24:41.450 --> 24:47.330 However, you can also see this dude reaches out and says, do you want to recruit for me? 24:47.690 --> 24:49.770 So I get it, buddy. 24:49.770 --> 24:50.890 You're doing your thing. 24:50.890 --> 24:53.330 My recruiters do their thing as well. 24:53.330 --> 24:58.670 However, I also hear a lot of you saying, or I see a lot of you saying, are you serious? 24:58.670 --> 25:05.410 You just asked me if I wanted to be a Java developer, and I'm a CTO, which is kind of like that, right? 25:05.410 --> 25:09.310 No, I don't want to stop being a director and go source for you. 25:10.390 --> 25:11.310 I get it. 25:11.310 --> 25:12.090 It happens. 25:12.090 --> 25:13.010 I'm sorry. 25:13.010 --> 25:22.770 But it's also an opportunity, and this could be an opportunity, even if I hadn't time, for me to talk to this person and to say, you know what? 25:23.530 --> 25:26.190 You'll notice that, no, I'm not looking. 25:26.410 --> 25:30.810 However, I do know somebody who is, or maybe you should look in this direction or that direction. 25:30.810 --> 25:36.970 So everything's always an opportunity to network and to help others as well. 25:37.130 --> 25:39.890 Also, real quick snapshot down here. 25:39.890 --> 25:52.470 It's 15 or so people who are, all they said to me in my DMs is, hey , and that's all they said. 25:53.050 --> 25:56.050 Sorry, not answering you. 25:56.050 --> 26:08.890 So I'm not saying you have to tell me something super clever or write a whole dissertation or anything crazy like that, but you have to compel the people you're reaching out to to take the extra step. 26:09.110 --> 26:12.410 I heard, I read, you have three to five seconds. 26:12.410 --> 26:27.170 All right, so just do slightly better than just, hey, because frankly, people like recruiters who open up their DMs to you on social media are kind of making themselves vulnerable when they do that. 26:27.170 --> 26:37.710 They're doing it for you so that they can help you, but we're also opening it up to creepy things that people send us every once in a while. 26:37.710 --> 26:39.410 So be kind. 26:40.010 --> 26:43.030 Okay, so let's talk about resume real quick. 26:43.890 --> 26:46.330 Obviously be truthful on your resume. 26:47.190 --> 26:53.490 I will go through the guidelines that I think make your resume most effective for you. 26:53.490 --> 26:58.350 However, remember what I said about responses and communicating on DMs. 26:58.350 --> 27:01.030 So let me tell you what to do real quick. 27:01.230 --> 27:07.730 And I really want to hear your responses someday, however you get around to it, letting me know if this worked for you. 27:07.730 --> 27:09.130 People don't get back to you. 27:09.130 --> 27:10.490 I could be one of those people. 27:10.490 --> 27:11.310 I am guilty of it. 27:11.310 --> 27:12.610 It happens, I'm sorry. 27:12.610 --> 27:16.690 Remember that you're not the only person that they're hearing from, okay? 27:16.810 --> 27:19.190 So how can you get them to respond to you? 27:19.190 --> 27:26.790 Because I'm betting that most of them, them being the recruiters, want to talk to you. 27:26.790 --> 27:29.710 They want to help you, right? 27:29.710 --> 27:33.210 But they have a great volume of people that they're trying to help. 27:33.210 --> 27:35.570 So please remember that. 27:35.570 --> 27:36.650 You're not alone. 27:36.650 --> 27:38.550 There's a lot of people in the inbox. 27:38.550 --> 27:43.290 How can you get them to respond to your application when you apply? 27:43.310 --> 27:45.590 Apply, wait. 27:45.590 --> 27:49.630 Wait a couple days, not longer than that. 27:49.630 --> 27:57.390 Then go to LinkedIn, look for ABC Company wherever you apply. 27:57.690 --> 28:01.190 Probably a recruiter works there. 28:01.530 --> 28:07.350 So you click the people button, you look for who has the recruiter title, you send them a DM. 28:07.870 --> 28:10.590 Hi, Jim, it's me, Mary. 28:10.770 --> 28:12.970 I applied for ABC. 28:13.070 --> 28:18.890 Look for an identifier when you apply for the job that can help them look and find the job. 28:18.890 --> 28:21.330 There's usually a rec ID or something like that. 28:21.330 --> 28:23.230 Look for that, mention it. 28:23.270 --> 28:25.930 So then they're going to go look for your application. 28:26.030 --> 28:31.250 And when you reach out, you say, I applied for this, can't wait to hear back from you. 28:31.570 --> 28:32.390 Okay? 28:32.650 --> 28:36.290 Probably they're going to reply in one business day. 28:36.290 --> 28:37.450 They're going to see your message. 28:37.450 --> 28:38.190 They're going to reply. 28:38.190 --> 28:40.290 They may have never seen your application. 28:40.290 --> 28:41.450 Sorry, it happens. 28:41.450 --> 28:43.270 They probably have 50 jobs to fill. 28:43.270 --> 28:48.210 They probably have 50 applications per week or more per job. 28:48.530 --> 28:50.050 So now what are you going to do? 28:50.090 --> 28:55.250 If you don't hear back from that recruiter, first of all, if it was one of my recruiters, tell me. 28:56.890 --> 29:08.350 If it was any recruiter and they don't get back to you in a day, if you want, the next step could be look for a director of whatever the engineering department is, VP of that department as well. 29:08.350 --> 29:10.690 You say, hey, hi, Jane. 29:11.350 --> 29:13.150 I applied for this position. 29:13.150 --> 29:14.770 I reached out to so-and-so. 29:14.770 --> 29:15.890 Can't wait to hear back. 29:15.890 --> 29:18.310 Let me know if you need anything else from me. 29:18.550 --> 29:24.190 Now, really, probably, you just kind of got the recruiter in trouble, but you're probably going to hear back. 29:25.010 --> 29:28.430 Okay, so let's go really quickly through how to write your best resume. 29:28.670 --> 29:30.370 Start, please, please, please. 29:30.370 --> 29:31.410 Here's my name. 29:31.830 --> 29:35.030 Actually, with or without a name, here's the most important part. 29:35.150 --> 29:37.470 I'm a this, and I want to be a that. 29:37.470 --> 29:38.350 This is the bluff. 29:38.350 --> 29:39.950 This is the bottom line up front. 29:40.250 --> 29:42.010 I'm this, and I want to be a that. 29:42.010 --> 29:58.870 Do not assume that the person reading your resume has the time or the technical qualifications or that they're not totally fatigued out on resumes to know, to be able to look through your resume and know what do you do and what do you want to do. 29:58.870 --> 30:02.670 Hi, I'm a systems engineer looking to be a solutions architect. 30:03.110 --> 30:07.030 I am a developer looking to manage programs. 30:07.030 --> 30:10.910 Just one or two sentences, help me out. 30:11.030 --> 30:13.610 Then I know how to proceed with you. 30:13.610 --> 30:22.130 Then you're going to do your technical, put the technical in there, the technicals that you've used, the tools, the software, the hardware, then a chronological. 30:22.550 --> 30:25.490 People argue about the length of resumes. 30:26.170 --> 30:28.510 Obviously, shorter is better. 30:28.510 --> 30:32.270 It's less to have to read, but don't feel like it has to be one or two pages. 30:32.270 --> 30:34.890 We are reasonable. 30:34.930 --> 30:44.690 Frankly, if you're in the cleared space or if you would like to be in the cleared space, it's helpful to either mention that you do have a clearance and or that you are eligible and willing to get one. 30:44.690 --> 30:45.750 PDF is fine. 30:45.750 --> 30:46.790 It didn't used to be fine. 30:46.790 --> 30:48.150 It is fine now. 30:48.210 --> 30:55.710 Remember, if no one was responding, up to you to ping, send a message, send a little reminder, be patient. 30:56.950 --> 31:02.250 And customize each resume per the job within reason. 31:02.970 --> 31:04.610 Does my resume make sense? 31:04.610 --> 31:13.250 As your experience grows, it may become harder for whoever's looking at your resume to realize which thing you're trying to do. 31:13.670 --> 31:19.590 So on to the interview, try to do a little research on the company up front. 31:20.630 --> 31:27.990 It doesn't have to be that big of a deal, but just don't be so, I'm interviewing at so many places, I can't even remember who I'm talking to. 31:27.990 --> 31:29.730 Do a little bit better than that. 31:29.730 --> 31:31.350 Do a little bit of research. 31:31.870 --> 31:40.170 Try to find a way when it makes sense to answer as many of the questions as you can in the form of a story. 31:40.170 --> 31:41.110 What's your strength? 31:41.110 --> 31:42.050 What's your weakness? 31:42.050 --> 31:43.730 You know, all those kind of questions. 31:43.730 --> 31:45.410 Well, funny you should ask. 31:46.390 --> 31:56.630 One time I was building a robot and it was supposed to cross the street, but it actually blew up in the middle of the street. 31:56.630 --> 32:04.890 And so I learned that in the future, you don't cross the red and blue wires and you always bring a fire extinguisher, whatever. 32:04.890 --> 32:12.530 You just revealed to me the way that you learn from mistakes, the way that you prepare to solve problems in the future. 32:12.530 --> 32:16.590 You invited me into a little bit about your problem solving skills and so forth. 32:16.590 --> 32:19.450 So look for a way, think about it in advance. 32:19.450 --> 32:21.730 What are some stories that you can tell? 32:22.910 --> 32:25.990 You know, kind of about things that have occurred for you. 32:26.350 --> 32:39.050 Also, this is where I'm gonna ask you to give yourself a chance to be a real person and put the person on the other side of the table as a real person as well. 32:39.130 --> 32:42.830 They almost always say, do you have any questions for us? 32:42.830 --> 32:44.470 At the end, right? 32:44.470 --> 32:53.310 So hopefully they're not a grandstander and they've been trained properly how to interview and give you the opportunity to shine and not make it about them and all the things that they've done. 32:53.310 --> 32:57.370 However, make them into a person and they won't be ready for this. 32:57.370 --> 33:02.070 Say to the interviewer when they ask, do you have any questions? 33:02.070 --> 33:03.450 Yes, actually I do. 33:04.110 --> 33:12.210 When you were looking at coming to this company, did you have any reservations about working here? 33:12.430 --> 33:14.530 And how did that turn out? 33:15.970 --> 33:17.490 Wow, what a question. 33:17.510 --> 33:18.970 That's gonna tell you a lot. 33:18.970 --> 33:32.050 Maybe they're gonna say, you know, actually my kid has soccer three times a week and I was concerned about the commute and turns out they gave me a chance to do this, this and this to make that better, right? 33:32.050 --> 33:38.830 They're gonna make themselves into a person and they're gonna help you envision being an actual person working there instead of being all technical. 33:40.010 --> 33:41.610 Other favorite questions. 33:41.990 --> 33:46.150 Yeah, actually tell me, I see you've been, how long have you been working here? 33:46.150 --> 33:46.790 Three years? 33:46.790 --> 33:47.410 Cool. 33:47.410 --> 33:48.690 What have you learned? 33:50.350 --> 33:51.650 Wait for it. 33:51.710 --> 33:55.730 What a revealing thing for them to have the opportunity to tell you. 33:55.730 --> 33:57.450 What have they learned here? 33:57.450 --> 34:05.360 Because if they haven't learned anything, it's gonna be very revealing, right? 34:05.420 --> 34:08.160 So I'm not telling you to trick them, right? 34:08.160 --> 34:09.740 This isn't a social thing. 34:09.740 --> 34:11.460 This is making them into a person. 34:11.460 --> 34:13.340 They're really gonna tell you. 34:14.240 --> 34:19.600 I often liken interviewing to dating. 34:19.600 --> 34:29.420 I actually don't have any dating experience, but I imagine that if you went on a date, and you sat down and you said, I love kids. 34:29.540 --> 34:31.480 I love traveling. 34:31.900 --> 34:37.140 I go to church every Sunday. 34:37.400 --> 34:39.360 And none of those things are true. 34:39.360 --> 34:44.400 You have probably just guaranteed that that relationship isn't gonna work out. 34:44.400 --> 34:48.500 So don't show up at the interview and be like, I love solving problems. 34:48.840 --> 34:50.520 I'm an independent worker. 34:50.520 --> 34:52.940 Actually, I love working on teams. 34:52.940 --> 35:00.460 All these things that you're saying about yourself, if they're not true, you're hurting you and them, right? 35:00.460 --> 35:02.440 So make it real. 35:02.440 --> 35:09.420 And here's the thing, you might reveal something about yourself, and then the interviewer might say, you know what? 35:10.700 --> 35:16.300 James, what you told me means that you won't be a good fit for this. 35:16.380 --> 35:21.860 But turns out, you're a perfect fit for this other thing that we didn't even know we should be talking about, right? 35:21.860 --> 35:28.580 So if they're doing a good job, the more you tell them about the real you, the better off you both will end up. 35:29.500 --> 35:32.320 Okay, so really, really, really, really, I want you to be yourself. 35:32.320 --> 35:33.720 I want you to be honest. 35:34.080 --> 35:37.520 My hair was blue at my last interview. 35:37.720 --> 35:39.180 It is what it is. 35:39.220 --> 35:40.920 It's okay to pivot. 35:40.920 --> 35:43.620 I mentioned that I was a software engineer. 35:43.620 --> 35:44.980 I ran a help desk, right? 35:44.980 --> 35:46.320 It's okay to change. 35:46.320 --> 35:47.040 It's okay. 35:47.040 --> 35:50.120 There are so many opportunities out there. 35:50.120 --> 35:52.240 It is okay to pivot. 35:52.240 --> 35:57.220 I want you to find your next best opportunity. 35:57.360 --> 35:58.980 I really, really do. 35:58.980 --> 36:02.300 I want you to be where you're happy and where you're comfortable. 36:02.440 --> 36:06.800 And I think there's enough opportunities out there for that to happen. 36:06.800 --> 36:10.240 So really, really, be who you are, do what you love. 36:10.600 --> 36:15.940 So real quick, I think this is my last spot, negotiating. 36:15.940 --> 36:19.640 People really, really struggle in this area. 36:19.640 --> 36:22.180 I have screwed up in this area. 36:22.180 --> 36:23.940 I have undersold myself. 36:23.960 --> 36:27.280 I have, and I've seen others do it as well. 36:27.580 --> 36:28.720 Here's what's up. 36:29.040 --> 36:31.920 Do not tell anyone how much money you make. 36:31.920 --> 36:32.960 Don't do it. 36:32.960 --> 36:35.000 A, they shouldn't be asking. 36:35.480 --> 36:43.320 And every federally mandated ordinance in the U.S., anyway, says that they can't ask you. 36:43.320 --> 36:45.000 So I guess I should preface that. 36:45.000 --> 36:46.640 A lot of you aren't in the U.S. 36:46.640 --> 36:48.980 Sorry, that applied to the U.S. 36:48.980 --> 36:50.340 I don't know the laws everywhere. 36:50.340 --> 37:05.700 But I will say this, regardless of where you are, the amount of money that you currently make has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of money you should be making or could be making, okay? 37:05.700 --> 37:18.260 Because it doesn't speak to your bonafide occupational qualifications or your education or your certifications or the most important thing that every single one of you has to offer is your willingness and your ability to do the job. 37:19.100 --> 37:21.520 Regardless of what you have done, right? 37:21.520 --> 37:24.300 What are you willing to do and what are you able to do? 37:24.340 --> 37:24.680 Right? 37:24.680 --> 37:26.000 What can you learn? 37:26.000 --> 37:26.600 You know what? 37:26.600 --> 37:30.380 I don't even know how to spell Python, but I know how to script. 37:30.820 --> 37:34.740 I just proved to you that I could be a Python developer. 37:34.740 --> 37:36.020 I'm willing, I'm able. 37:36.080 --> 37:38.600 So please, don't tell them what you make. 37:38.600 --> 37:43.700 Think about, but also answer the question when they ask, what do you want to make? 37:43.700 --> 37:47.060 And think about how you're going to deliver that question. 37:47.160 --> 37:48.780 What matters to you? 37:48.780 --> 37:51.120 More than just your paycheck. 37:51.240 --> 37:52.260 Is it shares? 37:52.260 --> 37:54.480 Is it 401k? 37:54.560 --> 37:56.380 Is it flexibility? 37:56.600 --> 37:58.940 Is it the ability to go remote? 37:58.940 --> 38:00.800 Is it performance bonuses? 38:00.800 --> 38:02.160 Incentive compensation? 38:02.160 --> 38:06.060 Think about the total package of things that matters to you in the long run. 38:06.060 --> 38:09.000 Is it the insurance premiums? 38:09.000 --> 38:10.940 Man, I'll tell you what. 38:11.580 --> 38:22.900 The difference, I'm not going to dox anyone, but between two paychecks at two different companies where the salaries were very similar, but the premiums were significantly different. 38:22.900 --> 38:24.860 Boy, that makes a huge difference. 38:25.420 --> 38:28.140 So, okay. 38:28.140 --> 38:30.460 And that's pretty much it. 38:30.460 --> 38:32.040 So let's recap. 38:32.040 --> 38:33.780 Always be open. 38:34.660 --> 38:36.860 Be your own best advocate. 38:36.980 --> 38:37.800 I get it. 38:37.800 --> 38:39.300 Descriptions suck. 38:39.300 --> 38:40.940 Sometimes so do resumes. 38:40.940 --> 38:43.340 Let's find a way to meet in the middle. 38:43.340 --> 38:44.660 Be exactly who you are. 38:44.660 --> 38:45.680 Be yourself. 38:45.680 --> 38:47.060 You is good enough. 38:47.940 --> 38:52.260 Notice how you're being treated all throughout your candidate experience. 38:52.420 --> 38:54.220 That's very, very telling. 38:54.480 --> 39:00.140 Remember that these challenges are like the ones that you will face as an engineer, right? 39:00.280 --> 39:01.960 Look at them that way. 39:01.960 --> 39:05.740 And you can't make them go away, but you can hopefully beat them. 39:05.940 --> 39:07.060 Thank you, DEF CON. 39:07.060 --> 39:08.420 Thank you, Kathleen. 39:08.640 --> 39:14.660 And if there's a way for us to do questions and answers in business court or something, I am always open. 39:15.680 --> 39:16.460 Thank you. 39:16.960 --> 39:18.640 Thanks so much, Kirsten. 39:18.640 --> 39:21.220 I really appreciate all of your great points. 39:21.220 --> 39:25.380 You've been just an amazing asset to the entire community. 39:25.380 --> 39:34.320 Yes, everyone can ask you questions in Discord channel, and I'm sure you'll be hanging around the con throughout the entire weekend and can answer other questions. 39:34.420 --> 39:36.140 Please do connect with her. 39:36.140 --> 39:39.640 She's always open to answering questions. 39:39.640 --> 39:44.120 And be sure to follow us on Twitter at Hacking Career. 39:44.120 --> 39:46.000 And that's it for today. 39:46.000 --> 39:47.500 Thanks so much, everybody.