[00:07.810 --> 00:12.650]  So, welcome back to the Career Hacking Village here at DEF CON Safe Mode.
[00:12.650 --> 00:16.770]  We know lots of people are at different stages of their career,
[00:16.770 --> 00:20.590]  and what we wanted to do is make sure that those of you who are
[00:20.590 --> 00:24.270]  midway in your career, maybe later in your career, and you're really starting
[00:24.270 --> 00:28.230]  to get to that point where you need to start building your teams,
[00:28.230 --> 00:32.570]  really taking on a leadership role, and how do you do all of this
[00:33.130 --> 00:36.830]  while we're in the pandemic and while we are trying to figure out
[00:36.830 --> 00:40.770]  how to create teams in a remote environment.
[00:41.070 --> 00:43.990]  So, I've asked my dear friend, Mike Murray, to come back
[00:43.990 --> 00:48.550]  and really share some of his insights on leadership and building teams
[00:48.550 --> 00:51.170]  in the new normal. Mike, take it away.
[00:51.510 --> 00:53.970]  Thanks, Kathleen. Really excited to be here.
[00:53.970 --> 00:56.450]  Always great to be back on stage at DEF CON.
[00:57.030 --> 01:03.030]  Even in this weird year when we finally have achieved DEF CON being
[01:03.030 --> 01:08.790]  cancelled, and none of us get to be in the crazy heat of Las Vegas,
[01:08.790 --> 01:14.230]  whether we're at the Rio or the RIV, or even back to the Alexis Park.
[01:14.230 --> 01:19.610]  So, this is yet another format for DEF CON, and I'm pretty excited to be part of it.
[01:19.870 --> 01:23.670]  And I think this has been a really interesting year for all of us.
[01:23.670 --> 01:26.590]  I mean, 2020 just gets more strange as time goes on,
[01:26.590 --> 01:29.290]  and we've still got a third of the year left to go.
[01:29.290 --> 01:32.870]  So, lots left. And I don't know about you guys,
[01:32.870 --> 01:36.330]  but I am, at this point, particularly tired.
[01:37.690 --> 01:45.190]  Across the board, whether it's Zoom fatigue, whether it's fatigue from being locked in our
[01:45.190 --> 01:51.670]  house, fatigue from having our parents and pets and kids and everybody around all the time that
[01:51.670 --> 01:57.410]  you can never get away from, or just fatigue from being unable to socialize with your friends.
[01:57.410 --> 02:01.750]  I mean, I don't know about all of you, but I certainly wish we were in Las Vegas sharing a
[02:01.750 --> 02:08.390]  cocktail, and able to walk around and able to hug with abandon like we always have.
[02:08.390 --> 02:14.470]  But this is a new year, and regardless of how tired we are, things are different.
[02:14.470 --> 02:20.350]  And as Kathleen said, this is a talk, A, for the people who are building teams, but I also want
[02:21.990 --> 02:25.830]  people out there, especially if you're thinking about joining a team,
[02:26.330 --> 02:30.670]  I hope to present some of the things that I see as where we're going,
[02:30.670 --> 02:34.530]  and the way that we're going to have to build our organizations and treat our people
[02:34.530 --> 02:41.810]  as we go forward. But this should also reflect on when you're searching for a job, do the people
[02:41.810 --> 02:47.770]  that you're interviewing with do some of these things? And are they doing them well? And is it
[02:47.890 --> 02:52.570]  a place that is forward-thinking enough that you'd really want to join to be part of this culture of
[02:52.570 --> 03:02.290]  remoteness, to focus on cultures that have diverse and inclusive workforces, and that have
[03:02.290 --> 03:09.430]  figured out how to go from this world where a large part of our interaction style was in person,
[03:09.430 --> 03:15.590]  to a world where a large part of our interaction style is like we're doing today, recording a talk
[03:15.590 --> 03:21.570]  over Zoom and presenting it, you know, not in the same way we would have in prior years.
[03:21.570 --> 03:25.650]  Now, the good news about being in security, at least according to all the stereotypes,
[03:25.650 --> 03:33.090]  is that we're pretty good at remote. You know, the typical stereotype of the remote hacker
[03:33.090 --> 03:38.350]  sitting in their basement with their headphones on or their hoodie up and, you know, I don't know
[03:38.350 --> 03:45.730]  if you can tell, but I'm wearing my hoodie today for recording this talk. You know, we have always
[03:45.730 --> 03:51.410]  done particularly well as an industry with having some amount of remote work.
[03:51.410 --> 03:58.550]  The problem with that is we weren't ever really remote. I don't know many people who have had
[03:58.550 --> 04:06.670]  their entire job cycle from first interview to hiring and onboarding to being in a company for
[04:06.810 --> 04:13.230]  a couple of years and never being in person. You know, every organization I've ever been at,
[04:13.230 --> 04:18.130]  if we were interviewing for even a remote role, we would often fly the person out for the final
[04:18.130 --> 04:21.830]  interview. We would often fly them out and have dinner and have a cocktail and get to know them
[04:21.830 --> 04:27.550]  face to face. And then when they onboarded, the same thing. When I started Scope Security,
[04:27.550 --> 04:33.330]  my company here in New York City, what I would do is every time I hired somebody, I would fly
[04:33.330 --> 04:37.650]  them to New York for three days. And we'd spend the first three days sitting in a room with a
[04:37.650 --> 04:41.390]  whiteboard, talking through everything in the company, talking through the technology, walking
[04:41.390 --> 04:46.770]  through the product and all of that stuff. And we would have lunches and we would have breakfasts
[04:46.770 --> 04:51.570]  and we would have dinners and we would have all this face to face interaction. Similarly, I don't
[04:51.570 --> 04:56.630]  know any sales team around this industry that doesn't have at least once a year, you fly all
[04:56.630 --> 05:02.390]  the salespeople and put them in a big room and have a sales kickoff. These are all things that
[05:02.390 --> 05:08.670]  have just evaporated in 2020. And let's be clear, with Google's recent announcement that they're
[05:08.670 --> 05:13.890]  going to keep all of their people remote until the middle of next year, I fully expect that
[05:13.890 --> 05:18.750]  many of us are going to go at least another year before we are face to face with a lot of our
[05:18.750 --> 05:25.410]  co-workers. And so even the roles that we've traditionally thought of as remote are far
[05:25.410 --> 05:31.050]  more remote than they used to be. And that's where I think the crux of a lot of the changes come
[05:31.630 --> 05:39.510]  from. Because we're missing a ton of our ability to form those social relationships. I mean,
[05:39.510 --> 05:44.210]  most of those social bonds are what get us through tough times. I'm going to talk about
[05:44.210 --> 05:49.410]  that a bunch during this presentation. Additionally, and if you spend as much time
[05:49.410 --> 05:55.670]  on Zoom and video conferencing as I do, you know that this is real. Zoom fatigue is a thing.
[05:55.670 --> 06:01.110]  Your mind and your cognitive resources are not designed to sit and stare at a blank screen
[06:01.110 --> 06:07.450]  that's not in three dimensions for eight or 10 hours a day. We are built to be social animals,
[06:07.450 --> 06:14.650]  but that socialness is in person, right? And many of us survive on that in-person,
[06:14.650 --> 06:19.150]  face-to-face interaction, especially the extroverts in the audience,
[06:19.150 --> 06:24.870]  for getting back the energy that we need to get through our days.
[06:25.110 --> 06:33.330]  Similarly, when you're in that informal or sort of... when you're in that remote context,
[06:33.330 --> 06:39.190]  the staring at a screen over Zoom, you miss out on a lot of information, right? And this is one
[06:39.190 --> 06:42.930]  of the things we'll talk about a lot in the interviewing section of this conversation.
[06:42.950 --> 06:48.190]  When you're doing an interview over Zoom, you miss a ton of influence cues that you would get
[06:48.190 --> 06:54.690]  if you were sitting face-to-face, right? Body language over video conference is effectively
[06:54.690 --> 06:59.130]  the talking head body language. It's not my full body language. You can't tell what I'm doing with
[06:59.130 --> 07:04.370]  my feet while I'm sitting here presenting to a screen with a microphone in front of my face.
[07:04.430 --> 07:10.610]  And you aren't really aware of how much information you get from that until it's gone.
[07:10.930 --> 07:16.250]  So let's talk about how I'm going to split up this talk. And I'm going to talk about three
[07:16.250 --> 07:23.190]  things that are really important and difficult in this time, right? The first one is bringing
[07:23.190 --> 07:28.830]  people aboard. You don't get to fly them out to the office and sit in front of them for a full
[07:28.830 --> 07:33.010]  day in a room with a whiteboard anymore. And because of that, we have to change our interviewing
[07:33.010 --> 07:39.270]  and hiring processes a lot. Similarly, when you're onboarding new employees, you also don't get to
[07:39.270 --> 07:43.450]  fly them to headquarters and have them sit in a room with you. So how do we change onboarding
[07:43.450 --> 07:48.870]  to accept this new remote reality? And then once people are aboard, how do you keep them mentally
[07:48.870 --> 07:55.850]  healthy? I know it's a common conversation, and I'm sure that there's going to be a bunch of other
[07:55.850 --> 08:00.030]  talks here at DEF CON about the mental health impact of locking ourselves in our houses like
[08:00.030 --> 08:06.810]  this and working all the time. But how do you create touch points in your culture and create
[08:06.810 --> 08:13.070]  structures by which you can keep your teams mentally sane? These are the three real phases
[08:13.070 --> 08:20.150]  of the employee life cycle that are changing so much right now that I want to dig into. So with
[08:20.150 --> 08:24.570]  that, we'll start with interviewing and hiring. We'll start with the onboarding process. And whether
[08:24.570 --> 08:29.730]  you're a job seeker who's going through this remote interview process or a hiring manager
[08:29.730 --> 08:36.310]  who's having to figure out how to modify their hiring process, this has been a really tough time.
[08:36.310 --> 08:42.870]  And it's funny, I was hiring a senior leader early on. Scope's obviously growing a bunch,
[08:42.870 --> 08:47.030]  and we're hiring a bunch of people. And I was talking to a recruiter friend of mine who
[08:47.990 --> 08:57.150]  is pretty thoughtful about these things. And I said to him, so do you have any advice for me?
[08:57.550 --> 09:05.450]  It's a big risk to hire a senior person who you've never met face to face. And his insight was,
[09:05.450 --> 09:09.150]  well, Mike, it's pretty simple. You either take the risk or you don't.
[09:10.190 --> 09:15.650]  That's not exactly what I was asking. What I was asking for was a way that we can modulate our
[09:15.650 --> 09:23.670]  process such that it becomes less risky. And so with that, I set out on the quest to figure out
[09:23.670 --> 09:27.810]  what we could start to do in our interview processes, knowing that as we're a growing
[09:27.810 --> 09:32.810]  company, we're probably going to hire 20 people this year, and we're never going to meet any of
[09:32.810 --> 09:37.770]  them face to face. So how do we do that in a way that we don't end up hiring the wrong people or
[09:38.650 --> 09:44.150]  breaking our particularly interesting culture? And especially, how do we make sure that we are
[09:44.150 --> 09:48.490]  getting the right people in the process and then evaluating them effectively so that we get them
[09:48.490 --> 09:56.090]  through to the onboarding process? So with that, one of the things that we really realize is that
[09:56.090 --> 10:05.950]  most of the things that you do in an interview process can have more or less rigor.
[10:05.950 --> 10:11.690]  You don't always have to be the most rigorous interviewer if you can create good bonds with
[10:11.690 --> 10:17.730]  the people in front of you. And I've seen a lot of hiring managers overcome bad interview processes
[10:17.730 --> 10:23.730]  and bad HR processes because they create such a strong interpersonal relationship with the
[10:23.730 --> 10:28.750]  candidate. And in the past, that was enough, right? I could overcome a lot of bad candidate
[10:28.750 --> 10:35.590]  experience within my interview processes by having really great interviews and creating those
[10:35.590 --> 10:40.430]  relationships, especially building in things like taking the candidate out to lunch and things that
[10:40.430 --> 10:45.750]  create that trust interpersonally. But unfortunately, that's all the stuff that's gone away.
[10:45.750 --> 10:53.430]  So what we realized is that rather than focus on our ability to create bonds with candidates,
[10:53.430 --> 11:01.730]  we had to actually add rigor to our process. Because what usually creates the trust between
[11:01.730 --> 11:06.470]  the candidate and the company that's trying to hire them is the interpersonal relationships with
[11:06.470 --> 11:13.310]  the people. Now you have to replace that by having a really great process. And so refocusing your
[11:13.310 --> 11:19.690]  interview process on making sure that you follow up with candidates in a timely fashion, that
[11:19.690 --> 11:25.010]  candidates are getting the right feedback and the right email and the right steps in the middle
[11:25.010 --> 11:32.270]  of the process, that you have standard questions across each of your sets of interviews so that
[11:32.270 --> 11:41.530]  the interviewers can focus what ability they have on creating the trust across this impoverished
[11:41.530 --> 11:49.670]  medium. We've had to go back and add rigor to our process. Now, the funny thing is, we're a
[11:49.670 --> 11:55.990]  nine-person startup. That's a hard thing to add rigor when you're a tiny company. It's one thing,
[11:55.990 --> 12:03.990]  you know, when I was at GE in my past, GE has lots of rigor, right? They have, you know, people
[12:03.990 --> 12:08.770]  to create rigor in the interview process where that's their job. Whereas at a small startup,
[12:08.770 --> 12:12.430]  you don't have that. So it's been it's been harder for us to do that. And I can't say that we
[12:12.430 --> 12:17.610]  necessarily do it that well. But we've been focusing on how do we add rigor to the process
[12:17.610 --> 12:23.190]  because we realize that we can't just rely on our ability to charm the candidate and to have
[12:23.730 --> 12:30.830]  really great interactions with them to create the bonds that we need and the excitement that
[12:30.830 --> 12:36.010]  they need about the company. Similarly, it's forced us to change our interview formats. You know,
[12:36.010 --> 12:42.850]  most companies I know have an interview process that involves some amount of remote interviewing,
[12:42.850 --> 12:47.250]  whether a phone screen or a phone screen and then a chat with the hiring manager.
[12:47.530 --> 12:51.410]  And then usually you bring the candidate in for one of these marathon, you know,
[12:51.410 --> 12:58.630]  four to six to eight hour back-to-back interview days, which is exhausting even when you're
[12:58.630 --> 13:02.750]  sitting in a room with a whiteboard with a bunch of people that come in and out.
[13:02.750 --> 13:09.410]  Over Zoom, it's not just exhausting. It's actually impossible. You know, by the eighth hour of an
[13:09.410 --> 13:14.930]  eight hour back-to-back Zoom day, the candidate's eyes are going to be so glazed over that they can
[13:14.930 --> 13:20.330]  barely form a sentence. And the last half of your interview process is not going to get the
[13:20.330 --> 13:26.150]  information that you want. So what we realized is we had to start breaking it up. Whereas,
[13:26.150 --> 13:31.410]  you know, you may have had a three-step interview process with the third step being a lot of
[13:31.410 --> 13:37.850]  different conversations. We've now added additional steps to that process. We're also
[13:37.850 --> 13:44.530]  experimenting with adding different media into the process. As an example, we know that we live
[13:44.530 --> 13:50.490]  on Slack. You know, other organizations live on Teams or Google Meet or, you know, Skype or whatever
[13:50.490 --> 13:58.330]  your preferred instant messenger is. We've started adding in attempts at interviews over those
[13:58.330 --> 14:02.470]  different mediums. Because if a person is going to join our team, they're going to spend a lot of
[14:02.470 --> 14:07.850]  time interacting with us on Slack. It would be terrible to find out that they don't know how
[14:07.850 --> 14:13.130]  to use Slack in their first week, you know. And we want to be able to replicate that experience.
[14:13.130 --> 14:16.910]  Now, you don't want to throw somebody out just because they don't know how to use Slack. I mean,
[14:16.910 --> 14:23.330]  obviously, there's a conversation there and a teaching opportunity. But you have to figure
[14:23.330 --> 14:26.850]  out how to replicate the real life you're going to be in. The real life you're going to be in is
[14:26.850 --> 14:31.510]  not in an office with a whiteboard for at least the next 12 months. So what is their life going to
[14:31.510 --> 14:36.450]  be for the next 12 months? Is it you're going to be drawing things in Lucidchart or Vizio online?
[14:36.450 --> 14:40.750]  Are you going to be collaborating on docs in Google Docs? How are you, you know, are you going to be
[14:40.750 --> 14:45.730]  pair programming? What are those things that are going to reflect that person's day-to-day life
[14:45.730 --> 14:52.930]  once they've joined your company? And in that time, how do we create effectively an interview
[14:52.930 --> 14:57.370]  process that replicates that so you can see what the candidate is going to be like in your
[14:57.370 --> 15:04.110]  environment? And I've sort of harped on this a little bit. And I've hit it pretty hard. But
[15:04.110 --> 15:10.530]  the idea of let's just get the candidate in front of a whiteboard and let's solve problems together
[15:10.530 --> 15:16.350]  started to become really hard. And we did... I specifically really love the whiteboard interview,
[15:16.350 --> 15:22.670]  right? I bring the candidate in. We will start working on a problem. I have five or six that
[15:22.670 --> 15:27.690]  I use depending on what the role is that I'm hiring. And let's solve the problem together.
[15:27.690 --> 15:31.910]  I get a sense of the person's interaction style. I get a sense of how they think, how they
[15:31.910 --> 15:38.030]  communicate, when they ask for help, whether they ask for help, all of those things. And all of that
[15:38.030 --> 15:43.190]  sort of evaporates when you can't do it remotely. I don't know if anybody's tried using the
[15:43.190 --> 15:49.230]  whiteboarding feature of Zoom, but I will tell you it is a poor, poor, poor replacement for a real
[15:49.230 --> 15:55.390]  whiteboard. And so what have we done to start focusing on how do you replace the whiteboard?
[15:55.690 --> 16:01.490]  We've started looking at online testing opportunities. I mentioned a second ago,
[16:01.490 --> 16:08.830]  real-time collaboration. If I was hiring a user interface person, maybe we co-design a screen of
[16:08.830 --> 16:16.190]  something in Figma. Figma is effectively like Google Docs for designers where we can basically...
[16:16.190 --> 16:20.970]  it's kind of like PowerPoint remotely, or not PowerPoint, sorry, Photoshop remotely, where you
[16:20.970 --> 16:29.430]  can basically co-comment on and co-design a UX. Maybe we work on a product spec within a Google
[16:29.430 --> 16:37.330]  Drive or the like. Or like I said, use Lucidchart or Visio to create an architecture and comment on
[16:37.330 --> 16:42.350]  it. Things that allow us to do real-time collaboration in the same way we do in a daily
[16:42.350 --> 16:50.070]  meeting. You know, our architecture meetings often end up with somebody sharing their screen
[16:50.070 --> 16:53.970]  and Lucidchart up on the screen and people drawing things and dragging them around.
[16:54.450 --> 17:01.390]  It's reflective of the real role that they will do, but it's also a good way
[17:01.390 --> 17:08.650]  to replace that whiteboard interview. Similarly, and this is the one that we've found the most
[17:08.650 --> 17:13.710]  valuable over the last six months, is we've added in audition interviews for pretty much
[17:13.710 --> 17:20.430]  everything. Basically, an audition interview, from my perspective, is you give the candidate
[17:21.030 --> 17:25.110]  a bit of a take-home assignment, something they can do in an hour or two. It doesn't have to be
[17:25.330 --> 17:30.530]  a huge thing. And then they have to come present. And they have to present their thoughts. So,
[17:30.530 --> 17:35.490]  whether that is a threat hunter who you say, you give them a threat actor, you know,
[17:35.490 --> 17:41.930]  here's APT29. Come tell us everything you learned about APT29 in a couple of hours.
[17:41.970 --> 17:47.530]  Or here's a piece of code. Tell us about it. Or write this piece of code. Or, you know, spin up
[17:47.530 --> 17:52.510]  this service. And then come tell us what you did. So that you get a good understanding of their
[17:52.510 --> 17:56.790]  communication style. You get a good understanding of their ability to do work. And you get a good
[17:56.790 --> 18:02.750]  understanding of how they're going to interact with you once they're here. And obviously,
[18:02.750 --> 18:07.110]  those auditions balance differently depending on who it is. If it's a sales role,
[18:07.110 --> 18:12.410]  that presentation is the most important thing. If it's a technical role, often the technology and
[18:12.410 --> 18:16.110]  the skills that they're showing is the most important thing. But they still have to be
[18:16.110 --> 18:22.310]  able to present their skills, right? So, across all of these, whether we're adding
[18:22.310 --> 18:27.470]  in initial assessments, whether we're doing collaborative interviewing over collaborative
[18:27.470 --> 18:34.310]  platforms, or we're doing an audition, we've added in all these steps to try and get a sense
[18:34.310 --> 18:40.280]  of how the person will work in the real world the way that we used to with a whiteboard interview.
[18:41.030 --> 18:48.170]  So, let me take a detour for a second. Because 2020 has really put a focus on diversity in a way
[18:48.170 --> 18:56.920]  that we haven't seen in prior years. And it's something that has been a focus of mine for a
[18:56.920 --> 19:03.780]  of years, though I very rarely talk about it. A big part of that is, I don't have a whole lot
[19:03.780 --> 19:09.000]  of experience in my own personal history that lends me to be an expert on diversity by any
[19:09.000 --> 19:19.040]  stretch, right? I grew up in small-town Ontario, and grew up in Canada, and I'm pretty white here.
[19:19.140 --> 19:25.220]  So, I'm not really the person to talk about this. But I will say, I've learned a lot about it.
[19:25.220 --> 19:30.620]  And I have a couple of counterintuitive points that I think I wanted to put on into this talk,
[19:30.620 --> 19:35.320]  because it's important to think about. Even if you're not somebody who really reflects diversity,
[19:35.320 --> 19:40.340]  it's incumbent on all of us to get out there and make the change we want to see in the world.
[19:40.340 --> 19:44.960]  And what I realized when I really started studying diversity is, a lot of the advice
[19:44.960 --> 19:50.600]  for when you look at diversity and inclusion programs, and when you get into the HR material,
[19:51.320 --> 19:56.620]  a lot of it is about showing how you're doing diversity for large companies, right? Publish
[19:56.620 --> 20:00.880]  your metrics, and have diversity committees internally, and do all of these things that
[20:00.880 --> 20:07.460]  happen at large companies. I was an executive sponsor of the diversity committee when I was
[20:07.460 --> 20:12.760]  at Lookout. I've done the big company diversity thing. But how do you hire a diverse team when
[20:12.760 --> 20:18.640]  you're six people? Because a lot of those things that you read about in the HR manuals don't really
[20:18.640 --> 20:25.160]  apply very effectively when your whole team fits in one Zoom window.
[20:25.460 --> 20:32.420]  And so, we've had to realize that the diversity effort for us is less a strategy. It's less a
[20:32.420 --> 20:40.540]  strategic conversation about how we structure the company's program, as it is a tactical activity of
[20:40.540 --> 20:44.900]  how do I get the right people to apply, and how do we make sure we hire the right people? And so,
[20:44.900 --> 20:49.380]  there are a few things that I really wanted to emphasize around that. And by the way,
[20:49.380 --> 20:55.040]  I feel free to hit me up in the Q&A, and to email me, and send me notes on Twitter,
[20:55.040 --> 20:59.580]  and tell me all the things that I'm not doing right here, and that I'm getting wrong. Because,
[20:59.580 --> 21:03.980]  like I said, I'm very committed to this, but I'm sure that I'm making mistakes.
[21:03.980 --> 21:09.740]  But the three things that we have learned really quickly as a small company is one of the very
[21:09.740 --> 21:14.440]  first things you can do to increase diversity is to focus on the language, and the job ads,
[21:14.440 --> 21:22.640]  and the job descriptions, and your website. It is really amazing across security,
[21:22.640 --> 21:29.820]  and across the job descriptions in our industry, how many of those have language that is very
[21:29.820 --> 21:37.660]  exclusive. And I mean, it excludes people. How many of them, you know, focus on a very
[21:37.660 --> 21:44.080]  particular sort of standard narrative that doesn't include other cultures,
[21:44.080 --> 21:50.720]  that doesn't include other life experiences, other genders, etc. And so, you can do a lot
[21:50.720 --> 21:55.380]  just by looking at all of your job descriptions, and all of your website, and asking yourself,
[21:55.380 --> 22:00.000]  would somebody who's not like me want this job? And I think that that's something that
[22:00.000 --> 22:06.380]  very few of us as hiring managers were taught to do when we were writing the job description.
[22:06.380 --> 22:13.460]  Second, the farther to the front of your interview process you can put questions about
[22:13.460 --> 22:18.400]  diversity, the more you are going to signal to candidates that it matters. If you go through
[22:18.400 --> 22:22.660]  your whole interview process and never ask a manager candidate what they've done to increase
[22:22.660 --> 22:27.280]  diversity in their previous organizations, they're going to get hired never thinking about whether
[22:27.280 --> 22:32.440]  or not they're going to build a diverse team in your organization. So, the closer you can get that
[22:32.440 --> 22:37.820]  to the front of your interview process, and I'll talk more about this in a second, the more you're
[22:37.820 --> 22:41.940]  going to signal to the candidates that, A, this is important enough for you to talk about right up
[22:41.940 --> 22:48.060]  front, but it's also going to allow you to select people who have answers around building diverse
[22:48.060 --> 22:54.700]  organizations that match the culture that you want to build. And finally, look at your pipeline.
[22:54.840 --> 23:00.280]  And I'll talk about this more in a second, but one of the most eye-opening things that you can do
[23:00.280 --> 23:07.200]  is if you have a candidate tracking system that's tracking the interview pipeline that you have,
[23:07.200 --> 23:16.300]  look at it and look at each stage. If 90% of the people that get in-person interviews, or 95%,
[23:16.300 --> 23:22.820]  I've been in places where 100% of the people who get in-person interviews are white dudes,
[23:22.820 --> 23:26.160]  well, guess what your team's going to end up as? It's going to end up as a bunch of white dudes.
[23:26.160 --> 23:31.560]  If your pipeline is 90% diverse candidates, you're going to end up with a diverse team,
[23:31.560 --> 23:36.680]  whether you like it or not. Who ends up in your interview process is who you end up hiring,
[23:36.680 --> 23:41.820]  period, full stop. And so if the beginning of your pipeline does not look diverse,
[23:41.820 --> 23:48.120]  the end's really not going to. So with that, I have two pieces of more tactical advice.
[23:48.120 --> 23:52.500]  One is my absolute favorite new question. This question is the question that has moved to the
[23:52.500 --> 23:57.660]  front of our interview process. And if I could actually put this on LinkedIn and make it a
[23:57.660 --> 24:03.200]  qualifying question, I would. I don't claim credit for this. I was talking to the folks
[24:03.200 --> 24:09.360]  over at Gapjumpers. Talk about a really neat organization. Gapjumpers is a group of folks
[24:09.360 --> 24:14.180]  that are doing some really interesting work around diversity, and specifically diversity
[24:14.180 --> 24:19.260]  in the hiring process. And one of their founders gave me this one. What actions have you taken,
[24:19.260 --> 24:23.860]  or wish you had taken, to advocate for and support diverse and inclusive cultures and
[24:23.860 --> 24:28.680]  teams in your previous roles? And by asking that question up front... and by the way,
[24:29.200 --> 24:33.720]  the answer is not always going to be a great one. And especially if you're asking this of
[24:33.840 --> 24:39.320]  a junior engineer, they might not have a good answer. But do they have things they wish they
[24:39.320 --> 24:43.400]  could do? Do they have things that they wanted to do? Do they have things they've seen done well?
[24:43.400 --> 24:47.160]  This starts a conversation that helps you to understand who the people you're interviewing
[24:47.160 --> 24:55.060]  are around this. And it really helps you to identify people who are going to support the
[24:55.060 --> 25:00.640]  culture you're building, but also that are going to be allies for you as you grow. And so we've
[25:00.640 --> 25:05.060]  started asking this very, very close to the front of our interview questions... our interview
[25:05.060 --> 25:11.380]  questions and panels. Like I said, if I could, I would put it in the qualifying questions to even
[25:11.380 --> 25:17.760]  apply right next to, right next to, are you authorized to work in this country? This would
[25:17.760 --> 25:23.300]  be a question I would ask right up front. Because by asking this, we are signaling like, hey,
[25:23.300 --> 25:27.740]  by the way, when you get here, you're going to be expected to do this.
[25:29.060 --> 25:33.980]  And so I don't know if you realize that all of these things that I've just put forward
[25:34.680 --> 25:42.320]  are ultimately the same thing. I've actually created all of these ideas around a single idea.
[25:42.320 --> 25:49.300]  And it comes from Richard Thaler's work around default choice. I was talking to a friend of
[25:49.300 --> 25:58.640]  mine who runs HR at a Bay Area startup. And she said, my fundamental job is to make it so that
[25:58.640 --> 26:05.960]  right now, the default choice for most of our engineering managers is to hire a white male.
[26:06.020 --> 26:12.560]  My job is to make the default choice to hire not that. Because we know that it's, you know,
[26:12.560 --> 26:18.240]  if I, if I pull a candidate, if I pull a pool of 100 engineers in the Bay Area, there's going to
[26:18.240 --> 26:26.300]  be a lot of white males in that, in that random sample. If I can force us away from the default
[26:26.300 --> 26:31.380]  choice that is currently the default choice, and create a new default choice to create a new
[26:32.860 --> 26:38.900]  way of operating, then we're going to get the decisions we want. Similarly to the way that
[26:38.900 --> 26:47.600]  with Thaler's work around 401ks, that if people if, if the default choice is not to enroll in a
[26:47.600 --> 26:52.780]  401k, something like 65% of people don't enroll in a 401k. If you make the default choice that
[26:52.780 --> 26:58.140]  they're defaulted to a 401k, and they have to enroll in a 401k, or they can opt out, something
[26:58.140 --> 27:03.620]  like 65% of the people enroll in a 401k. By setting the default choice, which is what all of these
[27:03.620 --> 27:09.320]  functions that I've that I've just talked about are doing, they are creating a situation where
[27:09.320 --> 27:14.240]  diversity is the default choice, we're able to actually modify the behavior of people in our
[27:14.240 --> 27:19.220]  organizations. And I think if we thought about how do we modify the default choice more effectively,
[27:19.220 --> 27:26.660]  we would end up with a better outcome in much in many of our cases. So with that,
[27:26.660 --> 27:31.900]  now we've hired a bunch of people, right? We've we've made offer letters, they've quit their jobs,
[27:31.900 --> 27:38.520]  they're about to start. And this is the point where I'd be normally buying plane tickets and
[27:38.520 --> 27:43.500]  having people come show up and I'd be giving them their laptop face to face on the first day.
[27:44.160 --> 27:50.320]  Unfortunately, that's not exactly the world we live in anymore. We don't, you know, no longer
[27:50.320 --> 27:56.340]  do we get to do the fly the person here, sit them in a room for five days and indoctrinate them
[27:57.080 --> 28:03.080]  for for 40 hours and have cocktails with them after that and take them out to dinner every night.
[28:04.460 --> 28:09.500]  That doesn't get to be how we do this anymore, because we're not able to do it in person.
[28:10.440 --> 28:18.560]  And because of the challenge of Zoom fatigue, and the challenge of basically sitting someone in
[28:18.560 --> 28:24.560]  front of a video conference for eight hours at a time, we have to realize that onboarding has
[28:24.560 --> 28:32.060]  to change. Onboarding can no longer be a monolithic entity where you start talking at nine o'clock on
[28:32.060 --> 28:37.220]  Monday and you stop talking at five o'clock on Monday and the person has set up their benefits
[28:37.220 --> 28:44.780]  and their laptop and all of that. Because of this new world, we have to we have to realize
[28:44.780 --> 28:49.160]  that you have to break it up. Right? That means you have to change formats, you have to have
[28:49.160 --> 28:53.900]  multiple media, some things can be in documents, some things can be email, some things can be over
[28:53.900 --> 29:01.580]  Slack, some, you know, Zoom is still important, you still will use Zoom. But often we can we can
[29:01.580 --> 29:09.700]  do things like videos, or one-on-one mentorship, or, you know, breakout rooms, or just go read
[29:09.700 --> 29:17.400]  this book even to replace that monolithic put a person in a room situation. And I mean, otherwise,
[29:17.400 --> 29:22.360]  you're just going to end up with exhausted people who haven't learned anything. Ditto, logistics
[29:22.360 --> 29:28.060]  start to get hard for onboarding. I mean, one of the things that we we've realized, and I have
[29:28.060 --> 29:34.340]  people in the US and I have people in Canada, it was really easy when I flew them here to New York
[29:34.340 --> 29:39.320]  to hand them all a laptop that we had, you know, bought from the store in advance and preconfigured.
[29:39.380 --> 29:45.380]  Now I have to figure out how to get those laptops configured and to their house. Right? Simple,
[29:45.380 --> 29:49.900]  something that should be simple logistically starts to become difficult. How about how do
[29:49.900 --> 29:54.080]  you buy lunch for everybody on their first day? You know, do I get their home address and have
[29:54.080 --> 29:59.520]  somebody send them Postmates? You know, how do we how do we even do something that simple? Right?
[29:59.520 --> 30:06.360]  How do you have happy hour on on their first day? Like, how do you socially onboard these people?
[30:06.360 --> 30:11.660]  These are all things we've never really had to worry about, right? The default action has always
[30:11.660 --> 30:16.300]  been, oh, I will just fly them here, we'll stick them in a room and we're all good. The default
[30:16.300 --> 30:20.960]  has changed. And so now we have to be thoughtful about not just the logistical part of the
[30:22.060 --> 30:26.980]  onboarding, right? Not just how do I teach them where Jira is? And how do I make sure that their
[30:26.980 --> 30:32.300]  laptop connects to VPN? But also, how do we socially integrate them into the team? Right?
[30:32.300 --> 30:38.960]  A big part of that onboarding process at most companies is when you put all those people in a
[30:38.960 --> 30:46.600]  room, you create an immediate social group. I still have relationships with people I onboarded
[30:46.600 --> 30:50.940]  at Lookout and people I onboarded with at GE, even though they weren't on my team.
[30:51.260 --> 30:58.360]  Right? We have traditionally used that onboarding process because, you know, as the meeting breaks
[30:58.360 --> 31:03.300]  up and people go to the go get coffee in the kitchen, they start a natural conversation.
[31:03.340 --> 31:08.600]  These are things that don't happen over Zoom. So as part of the onboarding of your employees,
[31:08.600 --> 31:15.300]  you have to sit and think about what do I do to socially integrate them normally? Right?
[31:15.300 --> 31:21.140]  Do we take them out to lunch? Do we do happy hours? Do we play games? What is the thing that
[31:21.140 --> 31:27.280]  we normally do to socially onboard people? And then how can I create that same thing,
[31:27.280 --> 31:33.900]  knowing that the mediums that we have don't enable that? So, for example, I'm a big fan of happy
[31:33.900 --> 31:39.520]  hours. I love taking, you know, taking the team out to happy hour. The best part about it is
[31:39.520 --> 31:45.820]  you can have big group conversations, but you also end up with a lot of one-on-one conversations.
[31:46.340 --> 31:52.000]  The problem with Zoom, for example, and frankly, any of them, I use Zoom as shorthand,
[31:52.000 --> 31:56.140]  right? It could be Teams. It could be Google Meet. It could be Hangouts. It could be anything.
[31:56.140 --> 32:02.920]  But the problem with it is what you have in a video conference interaction is very different
[32:02.920 --> 32:07.380]  than what you have in an in-person organization. Because even if you have like a suppose you have
[32:07.380 --> 32:12.480]  lunch meeting. We have 10 people on Zoom. We all have lunch. If we had those 10 people around the
[32:12.480 --> 32:17.400]  table, we would talk as a large group for a while. Somebody would present. Somebody would talk.
[32:17.900 --> 32:22.460]  And then you'd see all of these splinter conversations that would happen. And those
[32:22.460 --> 32:26.460]  splinter conversations are often where the most important relationships are formed. You know,
[32:26.460 --> 32:30.240]  we're sitting around the table and I start having a small side conversation with the person next to
[32:30.240 --> 32:34.500]  me or the person right across from me. And the people next to me are doing the same thing.
[32:34.500 --> 32:41.540]  Those conversations can't happen over video conference. And nobody has yet created the Zoom
[32:42.100 --> 32:47.220]  equivalent that allows me to be sitting in a large group meeting and have a side conversation
[32:47.220 --> 32:52.460]  with some other person on Zoom without effectively talking over the speaker of the meeting.
[32:52.800 --> 32:58.580]  And so you have to be really thoughtful about how do we create those things. You know,
[32:58.580 --> 33:04.360]  if we normally do happy hour, it's great that we do remote happy or like a Zoom happy hour,
[33:04.360 --> 33:08.780]  but how do we create the opportunity for all those people to have side conversations?
[33:09.040 --> 33:14.180]  And so in, you know, one of the things that I've been forcing people to do is have a ton more
[33:14.180 --> 33:19.260]  one-on-ones, especially with new people. You know, have one-on-ones with your new staff, you know,
[33:19.260 --> 33:24.900]  every day for the first month. That's actually something I've been doing is as I've been
[33:24.900 --> 33:29.140]  bringing some people aboard on my staff, I'm literally the first 30 days I meet with them
[33:29.140 --> 33:37.040]  every day for 30 minutes. That's a lot of time, but it replicates a lot of the conversations we
[33:37.040 --> 33:42.340]  would have had naturally as a side conversation in a meeting that we don't get to have anymore.
[33:42.340 --> 33:47.420]  And similarly, you have to be able to do that with your team. You have to be able to think about
[33:47.420 --> 33:53.220]  what are those social interactions? What do they look like when they're done well? And how do I
[33:53.220 --> 33:58.060]  hold my organization accountable for doing that with the new person when they come aboard?
[33:58.140 --> 34:04.060]  And by the way, this feels forced. This feels really uncomfortable to basically force everyone
[34:04.060 --> 34:10.080]  to have, you know, five one-on-ones a week with people where they normally wouldn't have. But
[34:10.080 --> 34:15.600]  you're replacing the informal hallway conversation. You're replacing their ability to just sort of
[34:15.600 --> 34:21.080]  stand up in their cube and ask over the cube wall. You're trying to create a situation where
[34:21.080 --> 34:26.800]  we replace those social interactions that happen organically within the office with an actual
[34:26.800 --> 34:35.360]  forced interaction. I too know it feels forced and not organic, but it's kind of what we got,
[34:35.360 --> 34:42.900]  right? We don't have the ability to do the things we've always done. And similarly, and so you sort
[34:42.900 --> 34:47.320]  of get the transition, right? We're doing those things to onboard people, but a lot of those same
[34:47.320 --> 34:52.260]  activities go into maintaining the health of the team and the health of the culture,
[34:52.260 --> 34:58.940]  because you don't anymore have the random sitting down next to each other at lunch opportunity that
[34:58.940 --> 35:04.360]  we used to have. You know, one of my favorite things when I've been in previous jobs is just
[35:04.360 --> 35:10.080]  to walk into the kitchen with food and see who's sitting at what table and go sit at whatever table
[35:10.080 --> 35:16.060]  and have whatever conversation I have that day with whoever's talking, right? And I'm an introvert,
[35:16.060 --> 35:20.980]  by the way, but that's how you create really strong relationships within an organization.
[35:21.060 --> 35:27.600]  Well, how do we do that same thing in this world? And I think there's a couple of things that we
[35:27.600 --> 35:33.840]  have to be very cognizant of. First off, and you know, it's the old, this meeting could have been
[35:33.840 --> 35:42.460]  an email idea. We have to be really ruthless about information format and information delivery.
[35:42.920 --> 35:49.100]  If I know that I'm in an office and I have basically unlimited face-to-face time without
[35:49.100 --> 35:53.180]  exhaustion, which as an introvert, I don't, I only have a certain amount of time I can be
[35:53.180 --> 36:00.240]  face-to-face before I have to put on headphones and not talk to anybody. But in general, even
[36:00.740 --> 36:06.680]  me as an introvert, when I'm in a room full of people, I can be pretty, you know, I can be pretty
[36:06.680 --> 36:11.060]  good and know I can have as many conversations as I want and I'm not going to be exhausted.
[36:11.060 --> 36:15.900]  In this new world, the hours we spend on video conference are a finite resource.
[36:16.040 --> 36:22.540]  So, if I schedule a whole ton of meetings that could have easily been an email or a Slack,
[36:22.540 --> 36:28.800]  suddenly I'm eating up time that I could have used for a more important face-to-face meeting
[36:28.800 --> 36:35.140]  with those meetings. So, in order to keep our culture strong and in order to keep our ability
[36:35.140 --> 36:39.940]  to have those social conversations and to have those in-person conversations when they're needed,
[36:39.940 --> 36:47.960]  we have to start being ruthless about saving our time face-to-face for the things that matter
[36:47.960 --> 36:52.140]  and finding a way not to do that. So, I've been doing a ton more with Google Docs. I've been
[36:52.140 --> 36:56.860]  doing... I've even been writing long emails again, where I've gotten away traditionally from writing
[36:56.860 --> 37:05.040]  long emails to my team. That was a very 2008 sort of strategy. I've started doing more longer emails,
[37:05.040 --> 37:14.300]  documents, a ton more on Slack, because I realized that I have to save up the Zoom face-to-faces
[37:14.300 --> 37:21.420]  for things that require that. And especially, especially for the social connection.
[37:21.780 --> 37:27.180]  Now, if you read the story, you know, there have been studies over the years about the amount of
[37:27.180 --> 37:35.020]  time people spend at work not working. And they're always presented in the traditional,
[37:35.760 --> 37:40.920]  they're presented as people wasting time. I've never believed that the time at work
[37:40.920 --> 37:46.280]  not working is people wasting time. Because fundamentally, the social bonds that you create
[37:46.280 --> 37:51.280]  on your teams, they're not as important... they're not important in good times. Don't get me wrong.
[37:51.280 --> 37:56.520]  I love being friends with all my team. I love loving the people I work with is really important.
[37:56.520 --> 38:01.760]  I spend a ton of time with the people I work with. But what the social bonds that you create
[38:01.760 --> 38:07.080]  in good times actually do for you that is most important is when things break down,
[38:07.080 --> 38:11.320]  when stress is happening, when you're in the middle of incident response,
[38:11.320 --> 38:19.240]  when your whole product goes down and nobody can figure out why, when a customer calls you
[38:19.240 --> 38:24.260]  and is unhappy and you have to figure out a solution right then, those are the times when
[38:24.260 --> 38:29.840]  you don't have time to build goodwill in that. And everyone's at a high stress level. Everyone's
[38:29.840 --> 38:34.520]  on edge. Those are the times that your social bonds and the social cohesiveness of your
[38:34.520 --> 38:39.200]  organization save you from the little misunderstandings. And so the time that you
[38:39.200 --> 38:46.640]  spend building social bonds in non-work interaction, conversations as you walk down the hall,
[38:46.640 --> 38:52.480]  conversations in the kitchen, you know, let's go get coffee next door. All of those little things
[38:52.480 --> 39:01.040]  put in the bank goodwill and trust and ultimately psychological safety that saves you when things
[39:01.040 --> 39:06.940]  go wrong. And this is exactly what we're missing right now. This is exactly what we're failing to
[39:06.940 --> 39:14.860]  get. When work becomes effectively transactional because our Zooms don't allow us to have those
[39:14.860 --> 39:23.000]  social times, we've basically set up a situation where it doesn't affect us on the normal days.
[39:23.000 --> 39:28.340]  It doesn't affect us badly that we barely know our coworkers when everything's fine,
[39:28.340 --> 39:34.780]  right? On every iteration sprint planning, everything's great. But when things go wrong
[39:34.780 --> 39:40.560]  and people haven't built that trust, that's when things break down. And so in this new time,
[39:40.560 --> 39:46.360]  as leaders, but also each person, we need to think about how do we create that non-work
[39:46.360 --> 39:51.120]  interaction for our teams and replicate it intentionally. And it goes back to what I was
[39:51.120 --> 39:55.540]  saying about onboarding. You should be thinking, if you're, you know, if you have a team of people,
[39:55.540 --> 39:59.700]  you should be thinking for each of those people, what social relationships are going to matter
[39:59.700 --> 40:03.960]  most when things hit the fan, right? Could, you know, if it's a team of developers, could be
[40:03.960 --> 40:08.600]  another developer, could be a QA person, could be a member of the customer support team.
[40:08.600 --> 40:13.820]  And then you have to sit down with that person and force them to create opportunities to create
[40:13.820 --> 40:18.460]  those social bonds. And, you know, one of the easiest way to do that is just to force them to
[40:18.460 --> 40:23.840]  have 30 minute one-on-ones with that person every week or every two weeks or every month. And yes,
[40:23.840 --> 40:29.420]  it is, it is forced. It is not organic. It is going to feel weird and uncomfortable.
[40:29.720 --> 40:33.220]  And it's especially going to feel weird and uncomfortable for you because you should be
[40:33.220 --> 40:40.360]  doing it for yourself too. What other people in your organization are important for you to be
[40:40.360 --> 40:44.860]  having those social bonds with when things go wrong? Who are you going to need to rely on?
[40:44.960 --> 40:51.280]  And so who are you going to need to build trust with in advance? And so we need to start forcing
[40:51.280 --> 40:55.380]  ourselves to put ourselves in the situation to have those conversations. Have a one-on-one with
[40:55.380 --> 41:00.580]  that person, you know, say it's your QA person. Put a one-on-one on the calendar and just talk
[41:00.580 --> 41:05.280]  about your families. Talk about what happened that weekend and talk about, you know, whatever
[41:05.280 --> 41:10.580]  you would talk about if you went to get coffee and you were sitting in the office. Because it's not
[41:10.580 --> 41:16.580]  wasting time. It's your ability to put those things in the bank that will save you when things
[41:16.580 --> 41:21.820]  go wrong. And it's not about Zoom happy hours or game nights. Don't get me wrong. I love those.
[41:21.820 --> 41:27.520]  But it's about creating those bonds of trust with those people that you're going to need later on.
[41:27.520 --> 41:34.700]  So, in conclusion, and just, you know, sort of putting a bow on it, the fatigue that we're all
[41:34.700 --> 41:40.960]  feeling from isolation and from social change and from COVID and from everything are real.
[41:41.380 --> 41:46.220]  And yet we don't get to kind of put it back in the bottle. The world's not going back to the way
[41:46.220 --> 41:51.800]  it was any time soon. You know, there may be pieces and pockets and parts, but as a whole,
[41:51.800 --> 41:56.620]  we're going to live remotely for a while. We're going to learn to have remote teams for a while.
[41:56.620 --> 42:01.260]  We believe some people, we're going to have remote teams forever. Right? And so, it's going
[42:01.260 --> 42:06.200]  to change how we hire. It's going to change how we onboard people and make them part of our team.
[42:06.200 --> 42:10.760]  And it's going to change how we keep them part of our team. And the sooner we start adapting to that
[42:10.760 --> 42:14.860]  and the sooner we start creating these new habits, the less they're going to feel weird,
[42:14.860 --> 42:18.560]  the less they're going to feel forced, and the sooner we're going to be able to create
[42:19.160 --> 42:25.580]  an opportunity to build a great culture in this world. And so, we have to be intentional. We have
[42:25.580 --> 42:30.900]  to be intentional about creating the quality of information, especially in the interview process.
[42:30.980 --> 42:35.820]  Right? If you know that you're only going to get from here up on somebody, you got to find a way
[42:35.820 --> 42:40.140]  to get more information about them that you would normally get from their body language through
[42:40.140 --> 42:44.720]  other means, through either additional questions, additional time, additional interactions,
[42:44.720 --> 42:51.340]  however you want to do it. Similarly, we have to replace the ability to interact
[42:53.060 --> 42:58.220]  in ways that deliver information. Right? We used to onboard by just sticking people in a room.
[42:58.220 --> 43:02.900]  Now we have to go multimedia. Now we have to come up with multiple channels and do a whole
[43:02.900 --> 43:07.320]  bunch of different things. And finally, we have to figure out how to be intentional about creating
[43:07.320 --> 43:12.760]  the social bonds that hold our team together. Right? I talked a lot at B-Sides last year about
[43:12.760 --> 43:17.960]  how to build great cultures. This is culture building. Right? How do you build a culture
[43:17.960 --> 43:22.360]  in this new time is something we're all going to have to figure out together. And I hope that
[43:23.100 --> 43:28.120]  next year and the year after at B-Sides, DEF CON, Black Hat, et cetera, there's a lot of people
[43:28.120 --> 43:34.420]  that have better ideas than me. Because I'm obviously talking about this as I'm figuring
[43:34.420 --> 43:38.360]  it out. Right? We're building the race car as we're driving the race. And I hope that a lot
[43:38.360 --> 43:42.840]  of other people who come up with a lot of better ideas that I can learn from as well.
[43:42.840 --> 43:51.560]  With that, thank you so much. I hope we're having good Q&A. And feel free to email me,
[43:51.560 --> 43:56.180]  hit me on Twitter, hit me on LinkedIn, however you want to find me. I'm around. This is stuff
[43:56.180 --> 44:01.420]  I love to talk about. So, find me and let's chat about this. Let's chat about medical cybersecurity
[44:01.420 --> 44:06.780]  because I love to talk about that, too. Obviously, the scope logo on the CT scanner there.
[44:07.220 --> 44:11.360]  But yeah. Anybody wants to hit me up, please feel free.
[44:12.080 --> 44:19.380]  Mike, thank you. As always, love hearing your perspective and how you inspire people to
[44:19.380 --> 44:25.660]  be better leaders, be better managers, and overall be better people. And it was so great when you
[44:25.660 --> 44:31.940]  announced last year at B-Sides Las Vegas the beginning of scope security. So, that was
[44:31.940 --> 44:37.100]  fabulous. Thank you for that. And I know we're having some really great conversations going on
[44:37.100 --> 44:42.880]  in the Q&A. Please do follow up with Mike. Definitely interested in always hearing people's
[44:42.880 --> 44:48.380]  perspective and having a great dialogue. Remember that we have career coaching and resume review
[44:48.380 --> 44:54.600]  going on. And look forward to seeing everyone at our next presentation. Thanks so much.