WEBVTT 00:04.730 --> 00:09.210 Welcome back to the Career Hacking Village here at DEF CON Safe Mode. 00:09.310 --> 00:16.830 Many times when we're talking on social media or on Discord, we're always asking, what is the best career path? 00:16.830 --> 00:22.670 And several times people will say, no, this is the way, no, this is the way, no, this is the way. 00:23.030 --> 00:26.130 What we can tell you is that there are many different ways. 00:26.130 --> 00:35.270 And I'm really excited to have my friend Pablo explain how he sees it and his recommendations on your career path. 00:35.270 --> 00:36.410 Take it away, Pablo. 00:36.830 --> 00:38.230 Thanks, Kathleen. 00:38.410 --> 00:43.710 So this talk is titled, In Theory, There's No Difference Between Theory and Practice. 00:44.130 --> 00:46.010 And so where did this come from? 00:46.010 --> 00:53.390 First of all, it's normally attributed to Yogi Berra, who dropped other pearls, like when you come to a fork in the road, take it. 00:53.390 --> 00:56.010 But this was actually not one of his. 00:56.830 --> 01:06.070 So the difference between theory and practice actually, according to Snopes, appeared first in the 1986 book about programming, The Art and Science of Programming. 01:06.070 --> 01:07.630 So I thought it was apropos. 01:07.690 --> 01:18.870 A lot of times when we talk about how to get into InfoSec, we devolve into this discussion about going to college and learning theory or the school of hard knocks, the learning practice. 01:18.870 --> 01:22.870 And so there's always this push and pull between theory and practice. 01:24.250 --> 01:26.090 So why are we here? 01:26.090 --> 01:36.050 As Kathleen mentioned, about every six months or so, we see these kind of flame wars and discussions pop up on Twitter about how do you get into InfoSec. 01:36.170 --> 01:38.790 And it comes from all sides. 01:38.790 --> 01:52.010 So you have some people that believe that security is a prestige class and that you have to spend 10 or 15 years on a watch floor or on a call desk before you can join security. 01:52.110 --> 01:55.010 And you have some people saying, look, I didn't go to college. 01:55.010 --> 02:00.590 I've got a fantastic InfoSec career and I make a ton of money and the college kids seem really upset by that. 02:01.050 --> 02:04.450 And the truth is there are many paths and they're all valuable. 02:04.450 --> 02:08.290 It's a matter of what you want to get into it and who you are as a person. 02:08.290 --> 02:13.490 So I thought it would be best to have a nice balanced discussion on that. 02:14.510 --> 02:17.590 So why do we even have these discussions? 02:17.590 --> 02:18.150 Why does it matter? 02:18.150 --> 02:20.430 Well, we all go through these little life transitions, right? 02:20.470 --> 02:27.270 We finish a school, be it high school or college or a trade school, that we have to go out and find work. 02:27.610 --> 02:35.110 Many of us serve some time in the military and we have to figure out what we're going to do once we take the uniform off. 02:35.390 --> 02:37.190 Some of us have life changes. 02:37.190 --> 02:44.230 We get married or we have kids or something in our life changes and we decide that we want to do something else. 02:44.370 --> 02:51.930 Or sometimes our careers just go away or we decide we're just dissatisfied with our careers and we want to get into this thing called InfoSec. 02:51.930 --> 02:54.470 And how do we really do that? 02:55.010 --> 02:56.670 So some disclaimers. 02:56.670 --> 03:00.010 First of all, these views are mine and mine alone. 03:00.010 --> 03:02.590 They don't belong to my employer. 03:03.130 --> 03:07.290 There's an exception to be found for absolutely everything I'm going to say. 03:07.290 --> 03:10.890 So if you try to find fault with this talk, congratulations, you will. 03:10.890 --> 03:14.390 Again, these are my opinions and what I've experienced. 03:14.730 --> 03:18.610 And those opinions are based upon my observations. 03:19.190 --> 03:21.510 But I'm also going to freely admit that I have biases. 03:21.510 --> 03:26.790 I took a very particular path and I've seen what I've seen and I haven't seen what I haven't seen. 03:26.790 --> 03:29.570 And so your mileage may vary. 03:30.410 --> 03:36.310 So a little bit about how my path came into InfoSec so that you understand kind of my latent biases. 03:36.310 --> 03:38.070 I've been doing this for a little bit. 03:38.070 --> 03:48.390 I got access to my first 8088 class computer in 1981 and then played with modems and BBSs. 03:48.410 --> 03:52.130 In the early 90s, I was a developer for Expert Systems. 03:52.130 --> 03:54.470 Those of you that are in AI may know what that is. 03:54.470 --> 03:58.890 In 1993, I went through a life change and I decided to join the United States Navy. 03:58.890 --> 04:01.590 Got a degree in computer science in 1998. 04:01.590 --> 04:04.430 Spent some time at NSA. 04:04.850 --> 04:08.730 Got a master's degree in computer science 10 years after my bachelor's. 04:08.730 --> 04:10.230 Went back to Cyber Command. 04:10.230 --> 04:17.630 Then was faculty at the Navy's postgraduate school teaching master's level computer science and information sciences. 04:17.950 --> 04:22.750 Then I went to US Special Operations Command Hacker Makerspace called SoftWorks. 04:22.750 --> 04:26.690 And I just finished a PhD in information sciences. 04:26.690 --> 04:36.290 Now that said, the picture is a little dated, you might be able to make out that that's actually me with the rest of the school of root. 04:36.350 --> 04:39.190 So I have been in the community for quite a while. 04:40.690 --> 04:44.810 So with that all being said, we're going to have this discussion. 04:44.810 --> 04:47.870 Let's try not to turn it into a flame war. 04:48.010 --> 04:52.550 We can disagree, but we should be respectful about how we disagree with each other. 04:54.990 --> 05:01.950 So those of us that have been around for a really long time remember the quote-unquote traditional path to an infosec job. 05:01.950 --> 05:07.650 There was no cybersecurity degree when I came up and went through college. 05:07.810 --> 05:25.710 And so the running joke was that if you wanted to be a computer security expert, and you could either go out and work at a SOC watch floor, become a forensic analyst, and then a lab director, and a chief security officer, and 20 years later, you would be highly paid consultants. 05:25.870 --> 05:37.810 Or the hacker method, where you became a hacker, you became a criminal, you got convicted of a crime, and two years later, you were a highly paid consultant, maybe 14 months with good behavior. 05:38.170 --> 05:45.170 Those days, unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your standpoint, may have gone by the wayside. 05:45.830 --> 05:47.770 So what are the contemporary paths? 05:47.770 --> 05:51.590 How do most of us get into infosec careers this year? 05:51.590 --> 05:53.630 Well, there's typically three paths. 05:53.630 --> 05:59.770 There's the School of Hard Knocks, there's the certification path, and then there's the college education path. 05:59.770 --> 06:02.610 And each of those come with their own pros and cons. 06:02.770 --> 06:06.270 And so we should discuss those a little bit. 06:06.710 --> 06:09.530 So the first one is the School of Hard Knocks. 06:09.530 --> 06:12.670 This is where you kind of teach everything to yourself. 06:13.590 --> 06:18.830 It's a very traditional path for hackers, because there used to not be college classes. 06:18.830 --> 06:24.250 There used to not be a CEH or a CISSP. 06:24.250 --> 06:32.170 You had to go out and read Frack Magazine and read 2600, or go to hacker boards and teach this stuff to yourself. 06:33.910 --> 06:35.590 One of the pros is the cost. 06:35.590 --> 06:37.490 The cost is essentially free. 06:38.050 --> 06:40.850 You only learn the things that you're interested in learning. 06:40.850 --> 06:43.890 You don't have to bother with any baseline things you don't care about. 06:44.630 --> 06:50.590 It takes the least amount of time before you get to the amount of stuff, before you get to the subjects that you care about. 06:50.650 --> 06:53.010 We'll come back to that least amount of time. 06:53.130 --> 06:54.890 And you get practical skills now. 06:54.890 --> 06:57.310 You learn what you need to solve your problems. 06:57.490 --> 07:00.230 And so you become a practitioner immediately. 07:00.250 --> 07:03.070 And really, you're only limited by your personal drive and talent. 07:03.070 --> 07:06.850 Nobody's going to tell you that you've got to learn about X before you learn about Y. 07:06.850 --> 07:11.870 Nobody's going to tell you that you have to spend two years doing this before you go do that. 07:11.870 --> 07:15.470 You can just hop right in and do the things that you're interested in doing. 07:16.750 --> 07:18.110 So what are the cons? 07:18.110 --> 07:19.950 Well, I mentioned time. 07:20.150 --> 07:21.630 Least amount of time are the three paths. 07:21.630 --> 07:23.310 Well, that depends on how you cut it. 07:23.450 --> 07:34.010 Generally speaking, there was a paper called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell that says, in order to become an expert in any one thing, you have to spend 10,000 hours doing it. 07:34.030 --> 07:43.590 So 10,000 hours, if you break it out into eight-hour work days, means 3.42 years, which sounds remarkably like a bachelor's degree, which takes about four years. 07:43.590 --> 07:47.970 And when you add summer vacation, and when you add spring break, you're at four years. 07:48.170 --> 07:49.910 You can do it faster. 07:50.150 --> 07:52.490 And again, your mileage may vary. 07:52.490 --> 07:56.190 If you're a very talented, very driven person, you might be able to do it in less time. 07:56.590 --> 08:00.690 But it is still a substantial amount of time if you want to become an expert. 08:01.810 --> 08:07.850 Typically speaking, when you go through the School of Hardenomics, you're all practice and very little to no theory. 08:08.170 --> 08:17.070 And the problem with all practice is that the tools change, and the tactics, techniques, and procedures change, and the approaches change. 08:17.070 --> 08:24.430 And if you're not based in a theoretical background, and you're not actively using it, those skills become very perishable. 08:24.850 --> 08:31.250 And so if you're not actively using it, you're going to lose it very quickly, and you're going to have to come back and reteach yourself. 08:31.510 --> 08:33.210 Employment opportunities. 08:33.350 --> 08:39.570 Boutique shops are a good opportunity for you because they're smaller, and they're willing to take a chance. 08:39.570 --> 08:48.830 A lot of the boutique shops are started by rock stars in this community, and they didn't take a college education in many cases. 08:48.830 --> 08:52.330 They learned through the School of Hardenomics, and so they understand it. 08:52.330 --> 08:54.790 Independent consultant is another one. 08:54.790 --> 08:58.410 You have to do your own business development, but you can certainly do that. 08:58.410 --> 09:00.850 You certainly can get hired by a corporation. 09:00.850 --> 09:07.610 The challenge with getting hired with a corporation without a degree is you have to pass the HR check, the human resources check. 09:07.790 --> 09:18.930 And the problem with that is the way that the industry has moved is a lot of times, unless you get a personal introduction, you have to go through an automated resume system, and it's looking for certain ticks. 09:18.930 --> 09:26.810 And if you don't check one of those ticks, like maybe they require a bachelor's degree, your resume may never get seen by an actual human being. 09:27.510 --> 09:31.150 The other issue with the School of Hardenomics is survivability. 09:31.150 --> 09:38.910 So when we go through hard economic times, what happens is usually there's an accountant somewhere, an executive somewhere, that wants to cut cost. 09:38.910 --> 09:46.690 And the first thing they cut is high cost assets, which don't have a whole lot of background. 09:46.690 --> 09:59.570 So it's easy to justify in a business sense, paying somebody with an advanced degree, a large sum of money, because they've got a demonstrated record that the school vouches for it. 09:59.570 --> 10:04.190 That may be harder if you learn through the School of Hardenomics, unless you're a name brand. 10:04.190 --> 10:09.370 If you're a name brand, then that may be different, but it is something to consider. 10:10.430 --> 10:17.370 So here's a fantastic example of an absolute rock star who came up through the School of Hardenomics, Frank Height. 10:17.770 --> 10:20.990 So, you know, Frank got started in this earlier than I did. 10:20.990 --> 10:24.890 He started with a PDP in 1979 at his home. 10:26.290 --> 10:30.670 In 1981, he emancipated and went to go work for Chase Manhattan. 10:30.750 --> 10:32.330 Never finished 10th grade. 10:32.330 --> 10:36.670 So not only does he not have a college degree, he doesn't have a high school diploma. 10:36.670 --> 10:45.850 He's one of the best-read, most educated people I know without any formal education, because he's just a tremendously driven and intelligent individual. 10:46.110 --> 11:08.990 In 88, he went to work for the New York Transit Authority, created the emergency 911 system for MCI, went to go work for NAVSEA and SWFPAC, which are Navy entities, found a NSA penetration testing operation in 1997, and became the 10th employee at at stake in 99. 11:09.010 --> 11:16.230 And since then, he's founded Leviathan Security, which has a tremendous name in the industry, and he's been a TED speaker times three. 11:16.370 --> 11:23.710 So again, no formal education, just a tremendously talented, driven individual with a curious mind. 11:23.710 --> 11:33.030 So absolutely, you can do this without certifications, and you can absolutely do this without education, and here's a fine success example. 11:34.110 --> 11:36.130 So the other way is certifications. 11:36.130 --> 11:43.230 Those have come into vogue of late, and we've all kind of heard the names. 11:43.230 --> 11:47.550 There's CEH and OSCP and OSCE and CISSP. 11:47.930 --> 11:49.090 And what are all these things? 11:49.090 --> 11:55.530 Well, the first thing to be aware of is not all these certifications are created equal, and they're intended for different audiences. 11:56.130 --> 12:00.210 For better or worse, if you want to work for the U.S. 12:00.210 --> 12:05.630 government, you're probably going to do much better if you have a CISSP, and that's actually true in industry. 12:05.650 --> 12:06.830 I've got one. 12:07.070 --> 12:23.150 I've got my own thoughts on that certification as compared to other certifications, but it's important for you to weigh what it is that you want to do for a living, what kind of career you want to have, and see if that certification is going to help you get that job or help you become more proficient in what you want to do. 12:23.750 --> 12:29.590 Many of the certifications focus on practice with little to no theory, but there's some exemptions. 12:30.310 --> 12:31.510 They're vendor motivated. 12:31.510 --> 12:34.070 Those certifications are there to make money, right? 12:34.070 --> 12:35.310 They want to sell you a boot camp. 12:35.310 --> 12:36.850 They want you to pay for the class. 12:37.170 --> 12:43.170 They want you to pay to take the certification, and then they want you to pay fees to maintain that certification. 12:45.830 --> 12:56.210 There are lots of paths to getting these, but primarily you can take a class, a boot camp, or you can do online and self-teaching by picking up a book. 12:56.210 --> 13:08.850 Most of these certifications have books where you can teach yourself the same things, and then your certification exams are tends to be to either proctored exams, which means that you go to a testing facility and they verify you are who you say you are before you take the exam, 13:08.850 --> 13:10.830 and then there are online exams. 13:10.870 --> 13:23.930 One of the things that does come up, and it was a problem in the past with some of the certifications, is that the online exams, you could actually go out and pay somebody to take the exam in your stead and get the certification. 13:23.930 --> 13:31.170 So once that's out, those certifications become less valuable in the eyes of industry, and so just be aware of that. 13:33.010 --> 13:35.790 So what, you know, what are the pros of certifications? 13:36.370 --> 13:37.670 It's a great boot camp, right? 13:37.670 --> 13:43.350 If you're starting at zero and you don't know how to get going, you're going to get lots of practice in a very short amount of time. 13:43.350 --> 13:47.770 Most of these boot camps are a couple of days or maybe a week long. 13:47.770 --> 13:50.170 Some of them are a little bit longer if it's a program. 13:51.110 --> 13:54.590 You're going to go from nothing to functional a very short time. 13:54.990 --> 13:58.790 Theory may vary, but typically very little theory in these. 13:59.830 --> 14:07.410 If you do a boot camp, you're going to get some lead learning, which means that you're going to have somebody that's ostensibly a subject matter expert to answer your questions. 14:07.570 --> 14:15.690 There's going to be defined a progression of knowledge, so if you don't know where to start or where to go next, typically these boot camps will help you out with that. 14:15.910 --> 14:30.010 In the certifications, many of them will help you pass an HR check because they're familiar with the vendors, they're familiar with the certifications, and they're familiar with the knowledge you have to demonstrate in order to achieve those certifications. 14:30.010 --> 14:38.330 And so in many cases, those automated resume checkers will actually tick the box if you've got the right certifications that they're looking for. 14:40.850 --> 14:45.550 So what you're looking at on the screen now is two courses. 14:45.550 --> 14:48.910 In the red box is one course, and in the blue box is the other course. 14:48.910 --> 14:51.570 And my question for you is, what is the difference? 14:51.570 --> 14:54.230 And I'll give you a few seconds here to read it. 15:00.000 --> 15:00.680 Good. 15:00.680 --> 15:05.840 So both of these are actually courses in exploitation development. 15:06.100 --> 15:12.260 One of them is a master's level course, the other one is a course from a vendor that you take in one week. 15:12.260 --> 15:16.980 So the master's level course takes 12 weeks, the vendor course takes one week. 15:16.980 --> 15:19.740 You're covering the same information. 15:20.140 --> 15:29.620 But what you should think about is, if you take it in 12 weeks, are you going to get a much deeper understanding and much more practice than if you take it one week? 15:29.620 --> 15:31.640 And I would suggest that, yeah, you will. 15:32.140 --> 15:39.060 You know, if you're spending 12 weeks with the material, you're going to spend more time exploring that material and going deeper on it than if you spend one week. 15:39.060 --> 15:48.580 That doesn't mean that you're missing out on a whole lot of stuff, you're taking the one week, but just be aware that a one-week boot camp is just going to give you an introduction to all of these subjects. 15:48.580 --> 15:53.280 And so you're going to have to go through and spend some of your own time really studying it. 15:54.960 --> 15:57.460 So what are some of the cons of certification? 15:57.460 --> 16:04.300 So I went out to a well-known vendor, who will remain nameless, and I pulled up the cost for achieving their certification. 16:04.480 --> 16:07.800 So their one-week class is $6,200. 16:08.600 --> 16:13.480 And then you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can take the certification. 16:13.660 --> 16:19.540 And so if you want access to their online labs after the course, it's another $729. 16:19.600 --> 16:21.160 So we're up at $7,000. 16:21.360 --> 16:25.640 And then each certification attempt is $729. 16:25.660 --> 16:30.360 So you're up close to $8,000, and that's if you pass it the first time. 16:30.940 --> 16:39.240 If for whatever reason you fail it and you have to go back and take it, well, you're probably going to need access to the labs, and you're probably going to need to pay for another certification event. 16:39.240 --> 16:44.700 So that's another $1,500 every time that you fail to pass. 16:44.700 --> 16:48.940 And then on top of that, you're going to have to pay to renew this every three to four years. 16:49.080 --> 16:56.640 So at $8,000, and we'll talk about the cost of college later, but $8,000 is a substantial amount of money. 16:56.640 --> 17:01.960 Not just compared to college, but compared to anything, $8,000 is a substantial amount of money. 17:01.980 --> 17:06.460 The other part is, as I mentioned, the certifications tend to be tools-focused. 17:06.460 --> 17:10.020 Not always, not all certifications, but they tend to be tool-focused. 17:10.140 --> 17:11.640 And so they're perishable, right? 17:11.640 --> 17:20.980 If you take a certification and then you don't do that on a daily basis for your job, your skill in that set is going to deprecate. 17:21.000 --> 17:22.940 The other thing is, what do they demonstrate? 17:22.940 --> 17:31.280 And so there's this ongoing discussion that always happens about, does that demonstrate knowledge or does that demonstrate your ability to take an exam? 17:31.280 --> 17:33.360 And different people have their own biases on this. 17:33.360 --> 17:39.600 I absolutely know people that could not pass a certification exam that absolutely had mastery of the material. 17:39.600 --> 17:41.020 They just couldn't take a test. 17:41.020 --> 17:47.240 I've also seen it the other way, where somebody passes the test and they clearly knew nothing about the material. 17:47.580 --> 17:57.560 And so there's really a discussion there that happens, and hiring managers will think about this, about does the certification really demonstrate that you know what I need you to know? 17:59.200 --> 18:00.920 So let's talk about college. 18:00.920 --> 18:05.480 I know that this is a very personal subject for a lot of people. 18:05.940 --> 18:08.680 Not all schools and all programs are created equally. 18:09.040 --> 18:22.640 If you go and get a computer science degree from MIT, it's going to be very different than if you get a computer science from, you know, maybe a community college or from University of Phoenix or some other schools. 18:22.640 --> 18:30.140 Take a look at what the reputation is, not just of the school, but of that particular program in that school. 18:30.280 --> 18:34.020 Most of you have never probably heard of University of Texas Dallas. 18:34.020 --> 18:38.620 They happen to have one of the top-ranked schools for computer science in the country. 18:38.620 --> 18:45.580 University of California Santa Barbara has one of the top-ranked schools for cyber security-based computer science. 18:45.720 --> 18:52.980 So really take a look at the programs, take a look at the schools, and realize that they're not all created equal. 18:52.980 --> 18:57.340 Most of the colleges will focus on theory with varying levels of practice. 18:57.340 --> 19:02.020 And again, that is a question that you should ask when you're considering a school in a program. 19:02.020 --> 19:05.020 How much is this theory and how much of this is practice? 19:06.000 --> 19:09.040 Then the other question you want to ask is, do I want to just study? 19:09.040 --> 19:12.560 Do I want to become a full -time college student or do I want to work and study? 19:12.560 --> 19:14.520 Now some of us, we're not going to have that option. 19:14.520 --> 19:21.500 Our life situations are such that we've got people that depend on us, we've got dependents , and so we're going to have to work and study. 19:21.960 --> 19:34.440 And that's okay, but for those of us that have the choice, we've got to balance possibly taking larger loans out to concentrate on our studies, vice taking smaller loans out, and working and studying. 19:34.440 --> 19:36.780 And that's very much a personal choice. 19:36.880 --> 19:38.040 Job placement. 19:38.040 --> 19:42.960 If you're going to go to a college, you should find out if they're going to help you get a job afterwards. 19:43.400 --> 19:51.260 College degrees are not cheap, they're very expensive, and so getting the degree shouldn't be where your college stops. 19:51.260 --> 19:55.960 Your college or university should help you with job placement afterwards. 19:56.540 --> 19:59.620 And then there's a value proposition versus cost. 20:00.180 --> 20:08.020 If you... getting a college degree in something that is not marketable is a personal choice. 20:08.020 --> 20:13.740 So really, if you want to work in InfoSec, you know, that history degree may or may not help you. 20:13.740 --> 20:15.900 And we'll talk more about unrelated degrees either. 20:15.900 --> 20:24.680 But if you know you want to work in InfoSec, perhaps you want to consider cybersecurity or an IT or a computer science degree. 20:25.170 --> 20:27.460 But there are other degree paths. 20:27.680 --> 20:34.720 You can either get an unrelated degree and get into InfoSec, or you can get a related degree and get into InfoSec. 20:34.720 --> 20:36.880 And those have their own pros and cons. 20:36.980 --> 20:43.080 And I'll show you an example of somebody that has an unrelated degree and has a fantastic InfoSec career. 20:44.020 --> 20:52.840 So the pros of colleges is that all industries and all companies recognize bachelor's degrees and master's degrees and PhDs. 20:53.120 --> 20:59.080 They're resilient, they tend to be theory focused, which moves at a much slower pace than practice. 20:59.400 --> 21:02.980 And so the tools change, the theory very rarely does. 21:03.060 --> 21:06.580 But if you've got a degree in that field, you're going to get that HR pass. 21:06.580 --> 21:15.220 If they're looking for a bachelor's degree, I'm not aware of someone that says, well, you've got a bachelor's degree, but it's not the right bachelor's degree, and therefore we're not going to take you. 21:15.220 --> 21:28.360 Job survivability, I talked about when we hit hard economic times, the people with degrees that are working in a field with their degree tend to be more survivable than the people that don't have degrees that are working in a field. 21:28.420 --> 21:32.340 Right, wrong, or otherwise, that's just kind of how it happens. 21:32.880 --> 21:34.940 It's a non-perishable skill, right? 21:34.940 --> 21:42.800 Again, I talked about the 10,000 hours to become an expert, 3.42 years, that's roughly the amount of class time that you're going to spend getting a bachelor's degree. 21:43.280 --> 21:46.780 Writing, writing is absolutely critical. 21:46.780 --> 21:47.920 I'll talk more about that. 21:47.920 --> 21:50.200 You're going to spend a lot of time writing in college. 21:50.440 --> 21:56.460 You can be the best penetration tester in the world, but you have to be able to communicate your findings in writing. 21:56.460 --> 22:00.220 And if you can't do that, you're probably not going to be hired back. 22:00.980 --> 22:04.140 Non-related courses, is that actually a benefit? 22:04.140 --> 22:05.940 I actually believe it is. 22:06.580 --> 22:10.640 It's easy for us to learn things that we're interested in within our chosen major. 22:10.640 --> 22:15.120 It is much harder to pay attention, learn things that we're not familiar with and we're not good at. 22:15.380 --> 22:17.180 But learning is like anything else. 22:17.180 --> 22:19.840 The more you practice at learning, the better you become at learning. 22:19.840 --> 22:28.680 And so as you're asked to learn new things throughout your career, it actually becomes easier to learn things the more you've practiced it. 22:28.680 --> 22:31.900 And then cost, it may or may not be a pro. 22:31.900 --> 22:35.920 Again, that depends on how you choose to fund your college education. 22:35.920 --> 22:41.400 If you use grants and scholarships, then cost is probably not prohibitive. 22:41.400 --> 22:46.600 But you also have to make some lifestyle choices about how you want to live while you're going through college. 22:46.600 --> 22:52.440 Otherwise, you're going to end up racking up a lot of debt that may or may not be a good value proposition. 22:56.260 --> 22:58.600 So writing and unrelated courses. 22:58.600 --> 23:00.380 Writing is absolutely critical for success. 23:00.380 --> 23:02.780 That's not just me saying that's Lenny's ulcer. 23:03.360 --> 23:08.700 Lenny's ulcer, among various and sundry other things, is a fantastic SANS instructor. 23:08.840 --> 23:11.900 And he teaches the reverse engineering of malware. 23:11.900 --> 23:16.360 And he says, listen, if you want to excel in information security, you've got to have strong writing skills. 23:17.480 --> 23:19.420 Often these things are ignored. 23:19.620 --> 23:21.220 Many of us don't like to write. 23:21.220 --> 23:24.560 I am not a fan of writing. 23:24.560 --> 23:26.180 I'm not going to sit there and practice writing. 23:26.180 --> 23:28.700 I don't do short stories or any of those things. 23:28.700 --> 23:30.500 I know lots of people do and I envy them. 23:30.500 --> 23:33.320 It is something that I've had to work very hard at. 23:33.600 --> 23:38.620 Most of us in this field tend to ignore writing because we're more interested in the technical skills. 23:38.780 --> 23:41.940 But just like technical skills, writing requires practice. 23:42.440 --> 23:47.700 And so if you go to college and you're forced to take unrelated classes, you're going to be forced to practice writing. 23:48.240 --> 23:54.340 And it's one of those things that if you're not going to do it on your own, you need to find somebody that's going to force you to do it. 23:54.560 --> 23:55.680 This may help you do it. 23:55.680 --> 24:00.760 The other thing is that understanding other fields helps you explain things. 24:01.400 --> 24:04.440 Very rarely are we going to do InfoSec for the sake of InfoSec. 24:04.440 --> 24:08.000 Normally we're going to do InfoSec for the sake of a company. 24:08.000 --> 24:11.980 That company's mission may not be InfoSec. 24:11.980 --> 24:13.060 It may be a bank. 24:13.060 --> 24:14.800 It may be an educational institution. 24:14.800 --> 24:16.640 It may be an engineering institution. 24:16.640 --> 24:24.720 And if you can't understand what it is that that company does, you're probably not going to be able to communicate very well why they should be concerned about InfoSec. 24:27.570 --> 24:29.030 So what are the cons? 24:29.030 --> 24:29.830 Well, cost, right? 24:29.830 --> 24:33.610 You have to be cognizant of the financial cost of college. 24:33.610 --> 24:35.810 College is definitely not cheap. 24:36.450 --> 24:39.770 You have to think, make some choices about how you're going to live. 24:40.010 --> 24:43.150 You have to discuss, think about the applicability. 24:43.690 --> 24:45.610 Unrelated courses are going to be required. 24:45.610 --> 24:53.230 Listen, any degree that you get, you're going to have to take English Composition, and you're probably going to have to take History, and you're probably going to have to take College Math. 24:53.230 --> 24:59.290 It's something we all kind of suffer through, but you're just going to have to do that. 25:00.310 --> 25:07.350 The baseline related courses are good because that's where you get your introduction to theory, but they tend to be not very exciting. 25:07.350 --> 25:11.810 For those of us that love this stuff, we already kind of know how to program in Python, right? 25:11.810 --> 25:21.110 We don't really need an Intro to Python class, but the college is going to probably require that if you're taking Computer Science, and so you're just going to have to suffer through it. 25:21.270 --> 25:24.910 One of the criticisms is that college is not practical. 25:24.910 --> 25:28.590 They tend to be a little bit behind, and that's true in many programs. 25:28.590 --> 25:32.470 They're not keeping up with the latest and greatest because they're not trying to teach you practice. 25:32.470 --> 25:36.150 In many cases, they're trying to teach you theory, which moves at a much slower pace. 25:36.330 --> 25:38.030 The other problem is time. 25:38.150 --> 25:41.630 College requires a significant time investment. 25:41.770 --> 25:46.170 Even if you're a full -time student, it's probably going to take you three or four years to finish a bachelor's. 25:46.170 --> 25:50.570 A master's is going to take you, even if you're a full-time student, probably two years. 25:51.930 --> 25:54.110 So, let's talk a little bit about the cost. 25:54.110 --> 26:01.670 This is the average cost as pulled from an independent journalist for a university. 26:01.670 --> 26:04.810 So, a public two-year in-district is $3,400. 26:06.830 --> 26:09.650 A public four-year is $9,000. 26:09.650 --> 26:16.950 Now, if you remember a few slides ago, we talked about certifications, and a one-week class in a certification tent was $8,000. 26:17.670 --> 26:26.830 So, for $1,000 more, you get to spend an entire year at a university becoming a dedicated learner. 26:26.830 --> 26:29.810 So, what's the value proposition there? 26:29.870 --> 26:32.930 If you're going to go to an out-of-state school, yeah, it's going to be a lot more expensive, right? 26:32.930 --> 26:35.490 You're looking at, on average, $24,000. 26:35.910 --> 26:39.550 And if you go to a private university, you're looking at $32,000. 26:40.010 --> 26:41.890 So, these are all things to keep in mind. 26:41.890 --> 26:57.150 Maybe the best option is not to move far away from home, unless you're chasing a particular school and a particular program, because they really teach the things exactly that you want to learn, or they have good insight in the industry that you want to go. 26:57.550 --> 27:01.650 If you want to work in Silicon Valley, absolutely go to a University of California school, right? 27:01.650 --> 27:04.150 Because they're there, and they have established relationships. 27:05.850 --> 27:09.010 But these are just the costs for tuitions and fees. 27:09.010 --> 27:12.350 These don't include things like your living expenses. 27:12.350 --> 27:15.750 They don't include things like your meal plans, and they don't include things like your books. 27:15.750 --> 27:19.450 Let's have a little bit of a discussion about reducing cost. 27:19.950 --> 27:22.570 This is a mock-up of my dorm room. 27:22.610 --> 27:24.630 Actually, that's not quite true. 27:24.630 --> 27:30.950 This is a mock-up of the dorm room after they remodeled it after I graduated. 27:31.150 --> 27:32.930 It looks pretty much like a prison. 27:32.930 --> 27:39.810 I lived a very spartan lifestyle, but because I did that, I incurred very little... actually, in my case, I incurred no cost. 27:40.010 --> 27:50.910 But if you want to have a really nice apartment, and you're a full -time student, and you're not working, recognize that your lifestyle is going to go on your student goals, and so that's going to drive up your cost. 27:51.250 --> 28:07.970 And so, while I fully recognize that college is expensive, I often question when people say, well, I've got a hundred and some odd thousand dollars of debt for going to school, and I ask if they lived in a dorm, and they show me pictures of this fully laid out apartment with giant screen TVs. 28:09.050 --> 28:10.710 Delayed gratification is a thing . 28:10.710 --> 28:17.030 If you don't want to incur a lot of cost while you're in college, you may want to cut back your living expenses a little bit. 28:20.000 --> 28:26.020 So, commons of college, you know, the applicability, you're going to be taking a lot of unrelated courses. 28:26.020 --> 28:27.860 You're still going to have to pay for those courses. 28:27.860 --> 28:30.240 Again, they're tangentially related. 28:30.880 --> 28:32.240 Practice varies. 28:32.240 --> 28:37.900 Not all programs provide you the same amount of practice, and not all schools are the same, right? 28:37.900 --> 28:41.680 Contact hours with your professors and your instructors matter. 28:41.940 --> 28:49.140 Faculty that have been in the real world and really are subject matter experts matter. 28:49.140 --> 28:54.820 One of the things I will tell you is you are going to meet a lot of faculty members at some schools that have never been in the real world. 28:54.860 --> 29:07.320 They've spent their entire life in academia, and so their view of industry and what's needed to succeed in industry is going to be very different than someone who has spent some time in industry doing it. 29:07.940 --> 29:10.120 Usually, you get good, fast, or cheap. 29:10.120 --> 29:11.120 Choose two. 29:11.120 --> 29:15.320 With universities and college education, it's normally choose one. 29:15.680 --> 29:19.420 There are some that are good and cheap, but that's rare. 29:19.420 --> 29:28.060 You really have to be lucky enough to be living close to a school that has a good program, but they're definitely not fast. 29:28.060 --> 29:33.400 If it's fast, there are some schools out there that are online, and they will tell you that you can get a master's degree in one year. 29:33.640 --> 29:36.720 It's probably not going to be cheap, and it's probably not going to be good. 29:36.720 --> 29:38.180 Let's be honest about that. 29:38.180 --> 29:40.160 So, go into it with your eyes open. 29:40.260 --> 29:47.100 The other thing that you see is a lot of schools are going to advertise that they're NSA Academic Centers of Excellence. 29:47.100 --> 29:55.480 I will tell you, having taken two schools through that certification program, that that certification is absolutely worthless. 29:55.700 --> 30:02.800 It is not that hard to get accredited as an NSA Academic Center of Excellence, and it's a paperwork drill. 30:02.840 --> 30:16.080 The NSA asks schools to make sure that they teach certain things, and if they have one slide on one course that mentions that subject, then they get to claim that they taught it. 30:16.080 --> 30:20.320 That is really not what NSA and Cyber Command were after. 30:20.460 --> 30:27.580 So, I would not really consider that Academic Center of Excellence certification for a school as worthwhile. 30:27.580 --> 30:29.040 Don't buy that. 30:31.240 --> 30:33.480 So, another con is the applicability. 30:34.300 --> 30:44.480 I used to teach not just at the graduate level, but at the undergraduate level, and I happened to teach one of the last classes that my undergraduates took before they graduated. 30:44.620 --> 30:51.020 And many, many, many of my students would come to me and go, hey, listen, you know, Professor Brewer, loved your class. 30:51.020 --> 30:51.900 It was great. 30:51.900 --> 30:55.560 I'm about to graduate with a degree, a bachelor's degree in computer science. 30:55.560 --> 30:57.700 I don't feel qualified to do anything. 30:58.380 --> 30:59.900 Congratulations, you're not alone. 30:59.900 --> 31:01.200 We all feel that way. 31:01.260 --> 31:06.460 If you spend any time in InfoSec, you're just going to get used to the imposter syndrome. 31:06.480 --> 31:07.660 I still have it. 31:07.660 --> 31:10.760 Many of the people up on stage today are still going to have it. 31:11.600 --> 31:17.000 But what you need to realize is that having a bachelor's degree doesn't demonstrate that you're an expert in something. 31:17.000 --> 31:22.060 A bachelor's degree demonstrates that you're capable of being taught and learning new things. 31:22.280 --> 31:23.620 And so your employers know that. 31:23.620 --> 31:28.220 Because you've got a bachelor's degree in computer science, they don't expect you to hop in and be an expert programmer. 31:28.220 --> 31:36.420 They expect that when they stick you with a more seasoned senior programmer, that they're going to be able to teach you the things that you need to do to accomplish your job there. 31:36.560 --> 31:40.360 A master's degree doesn't mean that you're a master of your trade. 31:40.360 --> 31:41.480 It absolutely does not. 31:41.480 --> 31:44.280 What it means is that you're capable of teaching yourself. 31:45.160 --> 31:51.640 If you don't know something and you're asked to do it, you're capable of going out and finding resources and teaching yourself. 31:51.940 --> 31:56.200 And a PhD absolutely doesn't mean that you're an expert in anything. 31:56.320 --> 32:00.640 What it means is that you're capable of conducting independent scientific research. 32:01.240 --> 32:06.060 So a lot of people do ask me, because I've just gotten one, should I get a PhD? 32:06.060 --> 32:12.100 And my answer to this is, you should only get a PhD for three reasons. 32:12.100 --> 32:18.180 The first one is, if you want to work in academia, if you want to be a university professor, absolutely go get a PhD. 32:18.180 --> 32:24.620 There's a hardcast system in there about tenure-track PhDs and non-tenure-track PhDs and then lecturers. 32:25.060 --> 32:32.820 The other reason is, if you want to do research, professional research, for your career, go get a PhD. 32:33.500 --> 32:39.740 And the last reason to get a PhD, which was my reason, was I just wanted one. 32:40.500 --> 32:42.100 Does it really help your career? 32:42.100 --> 32:42.960 It's arguable. 32:42.960 --> 32:46.800 I would say most cases the juice is probably not worth the squeeze on that one. 32:47.460 --> 32:52.880 It was just a personal goal I'd set for myself for reasons that, well, I'm just not going to get into. 32:52.880 --> 32:56.600 But just be aware of what those degrees are supposed to demonstrate. 32:56.600 --> 32:59.140 None of these demonstrate that you're an expert. 33:01.700 --> 33:05.620 So unrelated degrees, everybody needs InfoSec, right? 33:05.620 --> 33:13.560 It doesn't matter if you're a book publisher, if you're a bank, if you're a manufacturer, if you run industrial plants. 33:13.560 --> 33:21.280 All these things right now run on IoT and computers, and so they all need InfoSec. 33:21.280 --> 33:26.440 And taking these unrelated courses helps you learn the language of non-InfoSec people. 33:26.760 --> 33:36.820 If you're an InfoSec person and you go talk to your boss at a bank about IP addresses and ROP, and they're just going to run you out of the room. 33:36.820 --> 33:39.440 They pay you good money so they don't have to hear that language. 33:39.440 --> 33:44.540 They want to know, you know, what do I gain, what do I lose, what does it cost, and why do I care? 33:44.540 --> 33:52.420 So you're going to have to translate the geek speak and the InfoSec to business processes and thought processes of executives. 33:53.120 --> 33:55.560 Baseline courses, regardless of degree, are going to be the same. 33:55.560 --> 34:05.360 It doesn't matter if you're going to get a bachelor's in history, a bachelor's in women's studies, a bachelor's in computer science, or a bachelor's in electrical engineering. 34:05.460 --> 34:07.940 You're all going to have to take college math. 34:07.940 --> 34:10.140 You're all going to have to take English composition. 34:10.400 --> 34:15.280 Those baseline courses are the same, and they're meant to be a good foundation for the rest of your learning. 34:15.380 --> 34:17.380 I mentioned writing practice. 34:17.380 --> 34:20.380 You're going to get a lot of writing practice, regardless of your degree. 34:20.440 --> 34:21.920 That writing is important. 34:21.920 --> 34:22.960 It's actually critical. 34:22.960 --> 34:29.180 I would say in many cases, it's at least as critical, if not more critical, than your technical knowledge. 34:30.040 --> 34:39.000 But if you're going to get an unrelated degree and you want to work at InfoSec, at some point you're going to have to come back and either get some training or some education on the tech side. 34:39.400 --> 34:52.320 You can't just hop in from a history degree and decide that you're going to be an InfoSec analyst without going back and actually understanding what some of the InfoSec language means and understanding something about how computers and networks work. 34:53.300 --> 35:00.200 So, you know, here's a fantastic example of somebody that's successful with an unrelated degree. 35:00.200 --> 35:02.820 Tracy Malief, many of you know her, InfoSec Sherpa. 35:02.820 --> 35:06.960 She's got a bachelor's in history and she's got a master's in library sciences. 35:07.160 --> 35:22.560 She spent 10 years working as a librarian, then was a cyber analyst at Glasgow SmithKline, got her first InfoSec certification in 2017, and in 2019 she became an InfoSec analyst for New York Times. 35:22.560 --> 35:26.620 So library sciences doesn't seem like it's a related degree. 35:26.620 --> 35:31.360 However, what it taught her to do was how to do research very, very well. 35:31.360 --> 35:37.400 She's certainly a much better researcher than I am, and it taught her how to write exceedingly well. 35:37.400 --> 35:45.800 And because of that, she's been tremendously successful, not only in the hacker community, but as a professional InfoSec analyst. 35:45.800 --> 35:53.520 So absolutely, all degrees are valuable, and you certainly can work in InfoSec if you have an unrelated degree. 35:55.780 --> 36:02.580 So Immanuel Kant said that experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play. 36:02.580 --> 36:03.680 And it's true. 36:03.680 --> 36:04.640 You need both. 36:04.640 --> 36:10.340 You need a little bit of theory, and you need a little bit of experience and practical knowledge if you want to be successful. 36:10.340 --> 36:12.760 Otherwise, you're really just a one-sided professional. 36:12.860 --> 36:14.860 So you need a bit of both. 36:16.680 --> 36:17.880 So great. 36:18.020 --> 36:19.920 I've got more questions about this. 36:19.920 --> 36:22.880 Where can I go for learning and networking resources? 36:22.880 --> 36:23.880 Well, congratulations. 36:23.880 --> 36:26.080 If you're listening to this, you're already doing that. 36:26.240 --> 36:30.520 DEF CON and hacker conferences and hacker collectives are great insight. 36:30.520 --> 36:40.160 It's a great place to meet people that may be doing things that you're interested in, or that have good and bad experiences to share with you on their path. 36:40.440 --> 36:45.380 Makerspaces, there are makerspaces throughout the country and throughout the world. 36:45.380 --> 36:55.200 Lots of professionals have a passion for InfoSec and what they do that are willing to share their experiences and share their knowledge for little or no cost. 36:55.200 --> 36:57.880 Capture the flag exercises are great. 36:57.980 --> 37:02.960 One of the things I often hear is, I don't feel like I know enough to do capture the flag exercises. 37:03.040 --> 37:03.700 That's great. 37:03.700 --> 37:07.140 If you knew how to do the capture the flag exercise, it wouldn't be fun. 37:07.140 --> 37:12.080 So what I would say is go out there and try it and figure out what you can figure out. 37:12.080 --> 37:14.680 And what you can't figure out, go back a week later. 37:14.680 --> 37:19.080 What you're going to see is that the teams that did well did write-ups on how to solve the challenges. 37:19.080 --> 37:25.620 And that's going to give you insight into not only how to solve the challenges, but subjects that you may want to go back and learn more on. 37:26.320 --> 37:29.280 Mentors and mentees, everybody needs a mentor. 37:29.280 --> 37:30.240 I've got several. 37:31.160 --> 37:33.260 And I learned a lot from my mentors. 37:33.300 --> 37:34.920 Here's a hidden trick, though. 37:34.920 --> 37:37.800 I learned far more from my mentees than I learned from my mentors. 37:37.880 --> 37:43.780 They often ask me questions that I go, you know what, I actually have no idea, and I have to go back and research it. 37:43.780 --> 37:46.580 And I have to learn it well enough to explain it to my mentee. 37:46.720 --> 37:51.040 So both being a mentor and a mentee is a great way to learn things. 37:51.040 --> 37:57.560 There are lots of free online training, everything from YouTube to online classes to Khan Academy. 37:57.800 --> 38:01.640 Hacker cons, you can attend or you can volunteer. 38:02.980 --> 38:06.900 Attending is always great because you get to go to ideally all the talks that you want to do. 38:07.120 --> 38:09.860 Hidden trick of mine is to volunteer at the cons. 38:09.860 --> 38:11.400 I've been doing it for a long time. 38:11.520 --> 38:16.400 Particularly if you volunteer for speaker operations, you get a lot of one-on-one time with the speakers. 38:16.500 --> 38:19.080 You get to ask questions without anybody else in the room. 38:19.080 --> 38:20.940 So that's really, really great. 38:21.440 --> 38:30.580 For military members that are leaving, there's a program called Skill Bridge where you can go get an internship for six months at a company. 38:30.580 --> 38:33.000 That company doesn't pay your salary. 38:33.080 --> 38:34.400 The DOD pays your salary. 38:34.400 --> 38:35.860 So they get a free intern. 38:35.860 --> 38:37.100 You get free job experience. 38:37.100 --> 38:40.480 You get to try out that company and decide if you really want to get hired there. 38:40.480 --> 38:41.840 So that's a great deal. 38:41.840 --> 38:52.280 For college students and for people taking either the School of Hard Knocks or the certification path, go get an internship, either paid or unpaid. 38:52.440 --> 38:53.700 Internships are great. 38:53.700 --> 38:58.620 Not only do they let you gain some skills, they let you learn about the company. 38:58.700 --> 39:01.000 That lets the company learn about you. 39:01.000 --> 39:07.360 And oftentimes you get a job, not because you submitted a resume, but because you have a personal relationship with somebody in a company. 39:08.080 --> 39:13.080 Professional organizations, ISC Squared, ISACA, all of those tend to have monthly meetings. 39:13.080 --> 39:13.860 Those are great. 39:13.860 --> 39:15.080 Go network. 39:15.080 --> 39:16.640 Go talk to people. 39:16.640 --> 39:18.600 They will give presentations. 39:18.600 --> 39:22.280 If you want to know how they got to learn about what they learned, they will tell you. 39:22.280 --> 39:24.200 Oftentimes they're happy to do that. 39:24.960 --> 39:33.040 Boot camps and lunch and learns, a lot of organizations will offer boot camps and lunch and learns for free in some cases because they want you to sign up for their paid classes later. 39:33.040 --> 39:33.920 But you don't have to. 39:33.920 --> 39:40.780 You can go for an hour and learn about Network Recon or OSINT or whatever it is that they're talking about. 39:40.780 --> 39:44.440 So lots of free resources out there. 39:44.780 --> 39:47.240 So at the end of this, what's the best solution? 39:47.400 --> 39:48.920 It's a choose your own adventure. 39:48.920 --> 39:52.360 If you want to be a ninja, do all three paths. 39:52.360 --> 39:54.720 Do some experimentation on your own. 39:54.720 --> 40:04.500 Go through the school of hard knocks, get some certifications, take some college classes, get a degree, but choose a path and start on it. 40:04.500 --> 40:06.040 Journey of a thousand steps. 40:06.580 --> 40:08.700 You have to take that first step. 40:09.040 --> 40:12.120 What you should consider is what are your goals when you start on this journey? 40:12.120 --> 40:14.020 What is your next goal that you want to achieve? 40:14.060 --> 40:19.780 And how can you best get there given your timeline, your finances and your goals? 40:19.860 --> 40:21.420 So there is no wrong path. 40:21.420 --> 40:23.240 There are pros and cons to all of them. 40:23.580 --> 40:26.820 Eventually, if you want to be professional, you're going to find out that you've done all three. 40:27.360 --> 40:30.920 And so it's really just a matter of which path do you want to start on first? 40:30.920 --> 40:32.620 There is no wrong path. 40:33.900 --> 40:39.140 So with that, thanks so much for your time and I will be on the discord if you have questions. 40:39.140 --> 40:40.380 Have a great day. 40:40.960 --> 40:44.040 Pablo, thank you so much for all of that. 40:44.040 --> 40:53.420 Just sort of great overview because as you said, we tend to have this discussion and everyone camps in my way is right or my way is right. 40:53.420 --> 40:54.760 And it really is. 40:54.760 --> 41:01.980 Everyone needs to customize their own career path and take bits and pieces. 41:01.980 --> 41:06.480 And depending on your finances, where you are in life, all of it. 41:06.480 --> 41:11.320 And that's what's so great about the industry is that we have so many resources. 41:11.320 --> 41:13.900 We have so many role models. 41:14.040 --> 41:16.620 We can craft our own path. 41:16.620 --> 41:22.620 And employers are also starting to really realize that experience over certifications. 41:22.620 --> 41:26.220 But it's going to change depending on the employer. 41:26.220 --> 41:34.800 I really appreciate you pulling this presentation together and also all your great comments to people's questions in discord. 41:34.800 --> 41:43.660 I want to remind everyone that we're doing resume review and career coaching all day Friday and all Saturday afternoon. 41:43.660 --> 41:46.900 You need to sign up in the discord channel. 41:46.920 --> 41:48.060 Pablo, thank you so much. 41:48.060 --> 41:50.320 I can't wait to be able to hug you in person. 41:50.420 --> 41:51.240 Thanks, Kathleen. 41:51.240 --> 41:52.640 Looking forward to seeing you. 41:52.640 --> 41:53.320 Take care.