Welcome back to the Hacking Career Village. We're
just so excited that we've had so many great presentations these two days.
I really want to thank all of our speakers for taking the time to
pre-record these discussions and then being available
in Discord to be able to answer your one-on-one questions.
Today we have a good friend from the Twittersphere,
Roy Watanason, who is going to talk a little bit about the key
ingredients for job interviews, which are very important these days because
once you get through all of the search and you
finally get that interview, you want to make sure you're on top of
your game for that. So Roy, take it away. Great, thank you. Thank you very much,
Kathleen, and actually the Career Hacking Village.
This is, I think, this is the first time this year. So first off,
thanks to Kathleen and the entire team for
having this opportunity as well. And also just wanted to thank everyone
for tuning in today. So yeah, first off, I'm going to kind of
talk about the key ingredients for job interviews, whether virtual or
face-to-face. The first thing that I always like to do
in all my presentations is that I don't accept responsibility
for any of the, liable for any of the actions or if I have any inaccurate
information as well. And of course, the presentation doesn't
represent any of the organizations that I have
worked for. And of course, this is not, this is
absolutely not a one-size-fits-all at all. And again, it depends. It's very
contingent on the individual, individuals as well. So
first off, yeah, who am I? Healthcare professional, etc. Yeah,
basically taught at Brandeis University for over 10 years, created the
program there. And yeah, I really enjoy data forensics, incident response,
healthcare security, application security, and IoT, Internet of Things.
Obviously, the picture that you see on the right bottom
is actually not my picture. There's a great website based on
machine learning and artificial intelligence that actually creates
different images of people based on, you know, different things as
well. And it's not a real person at all. So you can actually go to that link to
get more information. So the agenda for today is, actually, I
thought that these were the
steps in regards to preparing for the job
interview or being more successful at it. Number
one, we're going to talk about the preparation stage.
Number two, about looking great because you always have to look good.
Doesn't matter if it's virtual or a face-to-face presentation.
Resume review, we'll talk about that too. And really exuding confidence.
The more confidence, the better as well. And also talk about some
note-taking strategies as well. And also asking back.
Not only do you keep answering questions,
you should also ask a lot of questions too. We'll talk about that too.
And I actually added one more thing too. And
the other one was trying again. We'll talk more about that and really to
address any specific questions as well. So first off, during the preparation
stage, think about when you're on
engagements or a project. Or actually, let's say you're doing some
kind of lead teaming, red teaming, penetration test, etc.
You want to really do a reconnaissance on the opportunity or the job offer.
Remember that it's not a one-size-fits-all. Things that are advertised
in the job description are sometimes not always the things that
you or the candidates or the individual is going to do.
So you want to prepare as much as possible. So like what I like to say is
kind of doing your reconnaissance on the opportunity,
talking to people inside the company, or if you know anyone
in your social networking profiles, etc. or your conferences,
talk to people that may know people in the company. Because chances are
you'll get a much more in-depth overview of the company and the
opportunity that you are applying for. Also at the same time, for those of you
who are virtual, just like as we are having physical
face-to-face conversations during the interview,
etc. For those of you that are virtual,
especially during these times, you want to ensure that you test all
your equipment, lighting, etc. and do that ahead of time too.
Also at the same time, prepare yourself not only on the specific technical
questions and non-technical requirements. I like
to call this like doing your homework. Think about things
outside the box and also try to look at the different
non-technical skills like the communication skills,
teams building skills, additional leadership skills as well.
If you don't have the experience, you can substitute it by
relevant coursework, you know, for those of you in school, etc. or part-time
and some other, you know, other opportunities like taking a class
online, for example, etc. Remember that presenting to
different audiences is a very key ingredient.
Not only presenting to technical people, but also
presenting to non-technical people as well. And also
what I, in addition to doing your reconnaissance on the opportunity or
opportunities, performing your own risk assessment
on the opportunity, job, job offer, etc. requirements and giving it a grade
because just like as we're doing risk assessments on
because every security, etc. is all about risk assessment even though there's so
many different areas in it.
Give it a grade. Maybe you have kind of like a spreadsheet
that talks about the kind of the different things, location,
environments, interviewing with different people that are there,
external factors, for example, and other things,
unknowns as well, things like that. Next is always about looking great. I
can't stress this enough, but always trying to look good, present
yourself in a way that even if the requirement
says dress casually, you probably, you always
probably want to show up in something that you're comfortable in,
a business casual suit, it all depends as well.
Even if it's virtual or face-to-face, remember
when especially during these times when there are a lot of these virtual
interviews now, you also want to be prepared for that in
terms of looking your best, looking at the lighting,
looking at your camera, looking at your sound as well,
and practice makes perfect, you know. So the more you do it, the more you get
better at it as well. Next is also talking about the kind of
resume review. And I like to say that this, the resume
review can be in different parts. It can be kind of the first step is
really tailoring your resume even before applying for the job
application or the job, for the job opportunity for example.
Tailoring your resume so that
it actually shows what you've accomplished. I always like to say that
honesty is the best policy. If you don't know something, you can always say that
it's something that you want to learn and also that maybe there are some
additional courses or open source projects and software that
that actually you can contribute to. It shows a lot of passion.
It also, at the same time, you know, I also like to say is that
the resume gets you into the door, but the interview,
interviews are where the interviewers and the organization gets to know you.
And it's a great thing too. And what I also like to say is
again, as an individual that also reviews a lot of resumes
when building the team, etc., you want to do something that
people haven't done before. Obviously, you want to follow
all of the resume guidelines. For example,
you know, the number of pages, etc., based on your experience as well.
But also at the same time, thinking outside the box, trying to do something
that's different. So, for example, when let's say you apply
for, give you an example, let's say you apply for an engineering job.
Obviously, there are going to be a lot of engineering requirements
and technical skills and verbal and communication skills as well.
As someone that looks at resumes, I would say a lot too as well and
looking to build a team, I would also stress that
adding different things that can have you stand out
from another individual. Because when you think about it,
the organizations are always looking at potential candidates. What are some
things that can make you stand out? For example,
number one, maybe you may not have as much experience, but
it's a great opportunity. It looks like it's a great opportunity.
The first thing that you can do is participate
in either conferences or volunteering or other projects, especially
specifically open source projects that you can
contribute to. It shows a lot of passion as well and,
of course, motivation. Another thing that you can do is also
including taking courses, especially, you know, I love to stress a lot of
edX courses. So many opportunities now, especially now during the pandemic, that
are free that you can take as well. Something that
you're learning to build your skill set, basically. And remember
that as IT professionals or information security
professionals, and just like every other industry
or profession, we're always developing our skills.
And one of the main ingredients that I look for,
thinking outside the box, a lot of people are going to answer a
question this way or have their resume this way.
So take a look at the job description and try to, you know,
do like your own assessment in terms of what you can do and what you cannot do.
And again, adding different things that where it shows more passionate
and motivation as well to do the job, etc.
Next, I want to talk about really exuding covenants.
Obviously, it really depends if you're an introvert or an extrovert,
but with preparation comes making sure that you understand the roles and
responsibilities of the job. Not only the job, but the company.
What's the organization's business mission, for example?
Let's say for a healthcare company, maybe it's all about patients.
So for example, when you're doing your job,
or when you're part of the team doing your job,
obviously, you don't want to be like a no team to everything.
You know, so it has to support the business.
And so look at the business mission as well.
And educating yourself about not only the job details itself,
but learning additional skill sets, etc. as well to apply on your job.
And also preparing your questions to ask different people.
This comes with confidence and experience too.
Especially as you are doing more interviews,
depending on the job opportunities. And now there are a lot of jobs opportunities.
Prepare your questions, ask different questions to different people.
Don't only answer those questions, but as you're doing your homework,
getting more information about the company.
For example, in the first stage, reconnaissance stage,
getting to know people that are in the organization.
Maybe there might not be like a direct link,
but you can get some questions, etc.
I'm going to talk about more of the questions that you should ask as well.
And also really, when asking the questions, you want to ask open-ended questions
so that it makes, just like the interviewer or interviewers,
most of the time it's going to be interviewers.
They're going to ask you open-ended questions because it doesn't...
the interviewers don't want to have to see
or don't want to hear like a yes or no answer.
They want you to kind of like a scenario-based questions,
chiming in how you think, how you apply, how you fix this problem.
How do you negotiate when you have conflicts as well?
So as a job applicant or applicants,
you also want to ask these open-ended questions too,
to have the organization open up and give you more information, not a yes or no.
Because it will give you a lot of information in terms of,
is this the right opportunity for you or what you're trying to do or pursue, for example.
Because remember that just because the job description says something
doesn't mean that it's going to be 100% what you will be doing, for example.
And I'm not going to get into the specific job titles, etc.,
but there's been a lot of things where, you know,
a lot of misrepresentation around job titles, etc.,
but that's another, that's going to be another talk.
But just really, when you're building your confidence,
and again, it comes with preparation, etc., and thinking outside the box,
you can have all your pre-can open-ended questions to ask the interviewers, for example.
So one of the things that, you know, that I do, for example,
when preparing for the interview is, you know, I do my reconnaissance about the company.
But usually what happens is that when the interview is scheduled, for example,
human resources or, you know, the people, culture team, etc.,
they send a list of all the people that are going to be interviewing you.
One of the things that I like to do, just like, is actually go to do a reconnaissance
and actually see what job this, the potential interviewers will do.
Because when HR, human resources, sends you that list,
it actually shows the individual and actually the person's title as well.
You can kind of do your reconnaissance to see how long the individual or interviewers
have been in the company, for example, if it's advertised in there.
Also, you can see kind of like some of the projects as well,
as you are kind of like creating these questions too.
So again, it's all about when you do your homework,
you have more confidence to ask these questions.
But without doing your homework, you won't be able to ask the questions.
So that's what my challenge to everyone is basically to ask those questions.
Do your homework so that you can ask those questions,
so that you can see if this opportunity or requisition is the right one for you.
Next, we'll be talking about note-taking.
So first off, I really like, I think now, based on the electronic era, et cetera,
you can bring your gadgets, et cetera, as well.
But make sure that, you know, again, maybe it's on vibrate,
so it doesn't impact your interviews, et cetera.
I still like the traditional notebook or extra piece of paper
regarding the questions that you want to ask each individual.
So what I usually do during the interviews is, of course, as an applicant,
I bring an empty sheet of paper in the front and also in the back.
I actually have all of these open-ended challenge questions,
open-ended questions for the interviewers as well.
And because I cover it up, because number one, you know,
it's really like a matter of choice as well.
But that way, the interviewers don't see that as well.
But then because your blank page will be about taking your notes,
really following up for what things you want to ask the interviewer,
or maybe it's a follow-up in terms of what the interviewer said as well.
The reason that I take notes is just so that we remember.
What happened, the gist as well.
And again, it's like a CYA, cover your what opportunity as well.
If not, he said, she said, etc.
So that it's all captured in your notes as well.
But I also like to say that, again, note-taking is a great, great thing.
Because sometimes during the, actually many times during the interviews, etc.,
there's going to be times where you interview with so many people.
Typically now for the, you know, depending on how big or how big the companies are,
or also how global they are, typically for any information security position,
and depending on what role you are going to be taking in the organization,
typically you're going to be interviewed by at least one to three people.
Or the more senior the position, seniority the position,
the more people as well.
For example, some of these, I've actually, I remember this many years ago,
but don't quote me on this, but many years ago,
probably when I was actually interviewing for like a security analyst,
security engineer position, I actually interviewed for a healthcare hospital position.
I interviewed for at least about five people.
And it took most of the whole day, for example.
So just prepare for that.
And again, your note taking will come in really handy,
because this will also not only help you in determining if this is the right fit
or the right role, and to follow up with any questions that you have,
or any questions that the interviewers have for you,
where you might not know the answer, for example.
It also helps into generating after every job interview, for example.
Usually it depends.
So there's no specific guidance on it, but send like a thank you email, for example.
And the note taking will really help because then you know
what you talk to each interviewer or interviewers about.
And you can actually put some of this information in terms of your thank you notes,
you know, blah, blah, blah.
I'll give you an example.
Thank you very much, Erin, Rob, Chris, Mike, Leanne, for the interview today.
I really appreciated the time that you took.
And then you can kind of say, you know, Leanne talked about this, blah, blah, blah.
So it kind of shows you also as like a summary as well
to kind of help you close the deal on the interview.
Now, I also wanted to add, I added this because,
well, actually, the next one was the one I added, but asking back.
Don't just have, don't just basically answer questions as well.
It has, it's kind of like a give and take.
So because remember that the interviewers or the interview
were, is trying to ascertain if you're the right individual or the right fit for the team.
So don't just ask the questions.
You want to kind of give and take in terms of having the interviewers ask you questions.
But remember in the preparation stage, as you're creating,
already created these questions based on who you're going to be interviewing with,
you want to ask them questions too, because this is your best time to
make sure that this is the right opportunity for you.
Is it really true?
Is the job description really, really, really match what is in the job description?
For example, is it the right culture?
Is it the right environment?
Is it the right team?
Is it the right people?
Is it the right mission?
Is this something that you really believe in?
For example, and like, I'm not going to read it, but at the end,
like getting to really know the real company.
Obviously, I'm going to say, again, this is just my opinion,
but the job description sometimes is probably most,
sometimes just a copy from somewhere else as well.
And sometimes the job description is not what you actually sign up for.
And again, this is not a one size fits all, but it depends on the company as well.
Some of these example questions, we're going to talk about that.
I don't have everything here, but remember where I mentioned about asking open-ended questions?
So the one thing is that some of these questions can be,
you want to ask, you want to find out, is this too good to be true?
Some of these open questions could be, how long was the security team been in place?
For example, was there an information security manager?
Why he or she?
Was that the company?
Did they leave?
What was the reason?
Et cetera.
These are some additional questions that you can ask.
And again, you can tell your questions on how much information,
you want as well.
So for example, why did some of these questions might be,
why did the entire security team all leave?
Is this a new security team?
Is the security manager who you will be reporting to, for example,
or IT manager, why did he or she leave, for example?
Other questions might be, again, remember it's all open-ended.
How long has people specifically been there?
It doesn't only have to be about your specific team as well.
Especially think about, remember that you're doing your reconnaissance,
doing your homework, doing your preparation, looking great as well.
But making sure, one of the things you can do is,
especially your open-ended questions is asking, not only who do you report to,
but also ask about your manager or your security leadership team,
who they report to as well.
You can ask, let's say sometimes, just to give you an example,
the security manager probably reports to, let's say, a CISO,
or let's say the CISO or every security manager reports to a CISO.
You probably want to find out who the CISO reports to.
Is it the CIO? Is it the privacy officer? Is the CEO, etc.?
It really depends. It's not a one-size-fits-all.
That way, you can actually tell their questions and say,
Hey, you won't ask it like that, but,
Hey, how come the CIO was only here for this amount of time?
Has there been some transition?
Has there been some kind of reorganization as well?
So, remember that it's asking back.
It's not only asking questions, but you also want to find,
this is your best opportunity to find if this is the right opportunity for you.
And it is something that resonates with you as well.
Next is really, this is something that I added as well,
because I was just thinking of things of,
Okay, what happens if you do all this and you still don't succeed?
And don't worry, because this is always, it's kind of like,
I think of it as like a date, I guess.
If the date doesn't go, it all depends.
So, when you're doing this, even if you do all this,
these are, again, these are not a one-size-fits-all.
But as you're doing this, obviously, these different strategies and tactics will help
you as the individual job applicants become more successful.
But remember that it doesn't always work.
And again, especially these different companies, please don't despair.
Try again.
Even things that, let's say it's a company that you're really interested in,
or organization, or et cetera, or it's a great opportunity, the best, don't worry.
And again, I think I won't quote it,
but there's been many security professionals and engineers where
their first choice isn't always the choice that it was set out to be as well.
So, take this as like a grain of salt.
But again, learn from what you've done, lessons learned, et cetera.
You know, more interviews also gives more experience and confidence.
And also remember, and again, it also depends on the organization as well.
Some organizations, based on how you interview, you will get kind of like a very...
could be like a vague summary sometimes.
But some of the organizations, if you ask nicely as well,
especially with your thank you notice as well,
you can also get some feedback on what were some of the feedbacks,
things that were a pro that worked really well,
and things that did not work very well as well,
based on the different interviewers as well.
And again, at first, you don't... just like that other song, right?
I think it was from Aaliyah, I believe.
At first, you don't succeed, try again as well.
But take this as a, you know, take this as a learning experience
and know that you won't always be successful.
I've known people at... when they actually applied to Google,
some of these really, you know, really great organizations as well,
or brand name recognition, they didn't get in.
And then, of course, they didn't... they tried three times, they didn't get in.
But, you know, after either through a merger position, for example,
they actually ended up being at the same company, etc.
So, I also want to say here is that don't burn your bridges as well.
Again, obviously, treat people as you would like to be treated as well.
And again, companies may not give you all the feedback that you may want to hear as well.
But again, remember from those open-ended questions, etc. too.
And usually, remember what I mentioned about like making a risk assessment
on the interview or the company before you actually interview with the company?
You can also have like make a grade and a risk assessment in terms of the grade around
how your interview went with this interviewer, for example.
Would you work well with him or her or the team, for example?
Would you not work well as well?
So, you can kind of get a good example.
You know, again, it's probably only just from your own perspective.
You probably want their perspective as well.
But it gives you a good overview and a good
remembrance of what happens during the interview as well.
Now, just kind of like putting it all together.
Remember that, and again, this is not a one-size-fits-all at all.
Really, and again, these probably can be done in different steps as well.
It's not like step one, two, or three.
But I really believe that, you know, preparing, having the preparation,
having the preparation is key.
Kind of like doing your homework, right?
Just like the Patriot says, do your job, do your job, do your job.
Preparation comes with preparation.
Comes all the additional confidence that you have
asking the different questions that you have for them as well.
And also kind of reciprocating to see if it's the right fit for you as well.
Number two really talks about looking great.
And just looking your best as well.
Wearing some kind of business casual, even though there's some other minimum requirement.
Just looking your best.
Doesn't matter if it's virtual or face-to-face as well.
And number three, talking about the resume review process.
This is probably beforehand and then, of course, afterhand as well.
Because one of the things that I actually didn't mention, and so I have the paper.
With your note-taking, you have the blank paper.
You also have the open-ended questions that you have for the interviewers.
But also under that, you also have your resume as well.
Maybe you can have additional...
Most of the time, the organization will always have the resume.
But this is something that you can pull out so that you can reference as well.
I've also known some other candidates where,
especially when they're going for different positions or a higher-up position, etc.
Or a position that's just out of their league, for example.
Again, remember, it's about thinking outside the box, doing something different.
Most people are going to bring their resume, etc.
What can you do to bring...
What can you do to do something different?
A lot of people now, they actually bring in different presentations, actually,
tailored to what they can do.
Let's say if you're applying for a chief of a security officer position, etc.
What makes you stand out that other people aren't doing?
For example, that could be the difference.
Or let's say a security analyst position, for example.
Or someone more junior, etc.
It doesn't have to be that.
It's just showing the initiative.
Showing that you're passionate.
Showing that you really want to be part of this team
and environment and company and organization.
Let's say you're a junior security analyst, security engineer.
Maybe one of the things that you can do is actually show some of the presentations
that you've done in a very high level as well.
And remember, you can remove all of the company names that you worked for before,
as well, for privacy purposes, etc.
But again, it shows the initiative as well.
That's some additional things you can do.
And, of course, that confidence is just really as you do more of your homework,
as you prepare for it.
Again, what I like to say is that don't just wing it as well.
Don't just wing it because that never works for anything, right?
In terms of interviews, etc., tests, etc.
But I'm going to say that by doing all of these different recommendations,
you will have more confidence as well.
And you can also look at additional things that you might have additional questions about.
Because remember that your open-ended questions are just going to be just some pre-canned
questions so that you remember that you asked the interviewers about.
Maybe when you go to the interview, for example, you see something in the queue, right?
Again, it's not just about pre-canning and then doing your open-ended questions.
When you're also interviewing, you're going to see the physical location, etc.
Physical location, physical security as well.
And you can also ask open-ended questions around that too.
For example, where I'd be working in this area, what floor, etc.
Where does the IT work?
Where do the other teams work at, etc.
People will be working remotely and other things too.
Next is the fifth one is about note-taking.
Again, I'm not going to stress that, but just remembering what you talked about,
what you're going to say, your open-ended questions, anything else that you want to
follow up on from the interviewers to the interviewing for yourself.
And also it serves as like a great thank you sum up note-taking based on it,
mentioned and talked to the interviewers.
Next one is asking back.
And I won't stress that, but really just, again, give and take, not only answering questions,
but what you see during the interview, what you see during the phone,
what you see during talking to different people.
You can ask those open-ended questions.
And last but not least, obviously, with all these strategies and recommendations,
everyone won't be successful or probably, you know, using these different strategies
won't be successful. So keep trying.
Don't, again, I think the main thing here is just really trying again and know that it's,
even if it didn't work out, there's always going to be a better or more challenging opportunity
as well. And things happen for a reason as well.
And things may not be meant to be, for example, things like that.
And other than that, just wanted to specifically get any questions.
I'm on Twitter, WR0. If you have any questions specifically,
you can also email me at websec or at gmail.com.
And also all of these presentations will also be shared on my GitHub account as well.
So thank you very much for your time today.
Thank you.
Roy, really great step-by-step laying out what people need to do for, excuse me,
to what people need to do preparing for their interviews. It's really great.
I think that everyone really needs to have that kind of checklist that you just laid out,
mainly because we get very nervous and get anxious
about preparing for interviews or doing the interviews.
So having a really great checklist like this is very helpful.
I really liked your suggestion. We tend to work a lot off of our
electronic devices, but actually having the notepad
when you're in the interview to take down notes, I think that
causes us to slow down a little bit because many times when we're in an interview,
we're nervous and having something that slows us down is really great.
I also think it's really great, one of the points you brought up about
being sure that you bring into the interview the resume that you submitted for the job
so that you can talk from that resume. We've talked in other sessions about
making sure you have resumes that are customized to those specific jobs that you're applying for,
but it's also helpful to make sure that you brought the resume with you
that you submitted to that job.
So really great points. I know we're going to have some questions in our Discord channel.
Thank you so much for being part of the Career Hacking Village.
Take care, Roy. We'll see you around on Twitter.
Yeah, thank you so much. And I look forward to your presentation as well, Kathleen.
Thanks. Take care. Bye-bye.
Take care. Have a good one. Take care. Bye.