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2540	8680	Hello, my name is Cecilia Vian. Thank you for having me here at the Crypto & Privacy Village.
8680	15680	I'm here to talk about stalkerware and an incident that happened late 2019 and early 2020.
20550	29630	I work as a consultant tester. I mostly do software testing with UX and security in mind.
30150	35290	And I have what's called an unconventional background for my field of work
36110	42530	because I have a bachelor's degree in pedagogics. That's educational psychology if you're American.
42970	46850	And I have a master's degree in philosophy of technology.
48050	56450	It means that I think a lot about what is technology, what are humans doing with technology,
56450	63710	what are they not doing with technology, how is technology affecting us, and so on.
64850	72270	Now, I live and work in Norway. It's a small country. You may or may not have heard of us.
72630	79760	There's about 5.5 million Norwegians and it's a country mostly known for its
80320	85420	fjords and mountains and very generous parental leave.
85520	92380	But for this context, what's important is it's a country that has pretty advanced
92380	98420	technological infrastructure. Most people in Norway have internet connections,
98420	105200	they have smartphones, they have digital ideas, they adopt new technology pretty fast.
105200	118680	We have already implemented GDPR and we have a very digital and highly coordinating banking system.
120500	125900	Banks in Norway mostly don't have any offices, like physical offices.
126980	129740	Banking here is done online and
132720	138200	people are paying their bills online, they're receiving their salaries and pensions directly
138200	142720	to their bank accounts, and people are using debit card and credit card and
142720	151840	what's called digital wallets. That's commonplace. We don't really use checks,
152390	159700	we don't really use cash a lot, and prepaid cards are not really in use in Norway.
160620	168380	In Norway, not only the young people are online, but also older people are online.
169100	176000	My grandpa is online, my great-grandmother would have been online,
176680	185380	she would do all her banking online. That's now common here. Everybody is online and doing their
185380	194680	banking there. We are essentially, well, you could say living the dreams of banks other places.
195240	208090	It's very easy, it's efficient, but it also has some drawbacks. Now, story time.
210640	216220	Late last year, I bought lunch at a grocery store.
217280	222800	It's not as exciting as I try making it sound exciting, but you know.
223320	232420	One of the items that I bought was a pack of tea, and I paid for this, of course, as a Norwegian by
232420	240060	card. When I got home after work, I was cold, and I was tired, and my significant other,
240060	243980	he's a nice person, and he wanted to make me a cup of warm tea.
245440	258060	He couldn't find any tea, so he asked me, where did you put the tea I, you know, you bought? And that,
258060	268260	uh, that was odd, because I hadn't told him that I bought tea, because the tea was for my office,
268260	282850	it wasn't for our home. So how come he knew that I bought tea? Is he stalking me? Now,
284090	291290	I guess you do have some kind of idea what stalking where stalkerware is.
291370	297490	By definition, any software that allows for stalking is called stalkerware.
298390	306250	But with this definition, a lot of very different things will be end up called stalkerware.
306710	311610	So for clarity, I have divided stalkerware into different categories.
316870	330330	First, there's the classic stalkerware. You can call it creepware, spouseware,
330330	340810	theft tracking, child safety is very, it's a very positive spin on stalkerware.
340810	351190	We also have something called prop tech, which is a new type for me.
351530	357390	And you have to install this kind of software on hardware,
358330	365730	on the victim's hardware, for instance, on a victim's phone, or victim's computer, watches,
365730	374890	house, toys, their car, anything. And it can be really hard to find.
375470	383730	And for people who are leaving abusive partners, the best and easiest advice given is move,
383730	391130	get new devices, get rid of your old computer, get a dumb phone, start over.
396790	405190	So one of the ways my significant other could have known that I bought tea
405910	410650	is if he had installed some kind of stalkerware on my phone, for instance.
411250	417850	But for this occasion, traditional stalkerware didn't really make any sense. It didn't quite fit.
419710	422930	So what else do we have? What else could it be?
424910	432730	Well, obviously, having to need to get access to someone's hardware is an obstacle,
432730	439570	and it's a bit of a hassle if you want to stalk them. So naturally, stalkerware evolved,
439570	450880	and we got what I called stalking as a service. Well, stalking as a service,
450880	457020	you can't just invite someone to be stalked. If you tried, please let me how that went.
458000	463600	But typically, the victim is encouraged to register as a service by the abuser
464760	468440	because it's something fun or useful.
470860	479460	And this kind of stalkerware could be camouflaged as find my phone, as something social media
479460	490100	related type of app, photo apps, a lot, health app and loyalty programs. They have fun features
490100	498960	like sharing by default and geotagging your pictures and tracking your whereabouts and
498960	507620	sending copies of whatever you upload or register there, notifications or share the account you
507620	516220	register in some way. Now, there's a lot of gray areas in this because there's so many legit
517040	524200	applications and apps and services that do the exact same thing and make it really hard
524660	535160	to stay private. So it's hard to tell sometimes if it's meant to be stalkerware or if it's just
535160	547200	bad software. But okay. Another thing that sometimes is stalkerware as a service is
548020	555520	customer loyalty programs. A lot of the times, I don't think they're meant to be stalkerware
556520	563320	but they are definitely facilitating it. Now, I don't typically register for loyalty programs so
563320	577870	that doesn't explain why did my significant other know about the tea. Since I didn't think
577870	589050	he was trying to hurt me, I asked him, how did you know I bought tea? And he told me he got a receipt
589050	598430	and I said, what receipt? Well, in the application, in the A application. A is one of the Scandinavian
598430	607750	letters. And that confused me because I haven't registered in that application. I know it, but
607750	615690	I didn't register. And I just had to ask him, did you register my card there? And he said, no,
615690	626920	only my card. And I thought that was odd and creepy. And it put me on a sort of,
628000	636280	gave me a sort of feeling that there's a new kind of stalkerware out there.
636780	645720	That is a new kind of nightmare, really. Because he had enthusiastically and with no harm intended
645720	652200	added his card. The card is connected to our joint account.
653580	657720	And that's how he got my receipts. Let me show you.
659740	668720	I, of course, had to figure this out. Is it really as bad as I think it is? So I downloaded the app
671300	680040	and I added my phone number. I got a text message with some numbers in it. I typed numbers into the
680040	695360	application again and voila, I was registered. Now, for this program, if you really want to take,
696240	701980	use the benefits, you have to add a card, a payment card.
704070	710210	It's like this. Now, I know you don't read Norwegian, so I'll explain it.
711050	717530	You type in a credit card number. Then you add the month and year.
718510	724810	And then you add the bank account number. As I said previously, Norwegians are all about
724810	731070	online banking, so everybody has bank account numbers, probably several.
733710	744250	And the bank account number, well, it says here in a little text that the account must be registered
744250	751890	in your name. And ethically speaking, it definitely should be registered in your name.
751890	755910	But there's no technical reason why it should be registered to your name.
755910	760030	You can just add whoever you want to stock down there.
764530	770170	I checked out some other programs, some other loyalty programs for the big grocery
770870	779190	store chains in Norway, and at least one of the other ones had the exact same solution for this.
782490	786490	And there were some other applications that you can do similar things.
786490	793390	Not as smooth and super easy, but definitely has the potential for stocking.
793750	802650	Now, this type of stalkerware, the third type of stalkerware.
803830	811330	We are used to being tracked when we're online and, you know, Google ads that follow us
811330	816510	and Facebook ads and so on. If you accidentally type baby ever at the internet...
818910	823850	You can just wait for the ads forever to be about babies.
827110	834970	And from a million different kind of trackers, data are being leaked and sold all the time.
834970	838510	And if you take that kind of data, you can find an individual.
839170	846290	But stalkerware is the other way around. You start out by knowing who you want to know more about.
846290	851290	It's very personal. It's very invasive.
855680	865240	In addition, this kind of stalking is physical. You can't turn it off. You can't just leave.
865900	869800	And you probably don't know it's happening.
873180	878300	So this is the kind of stalkerware my significant other used.
878820	882960	Not by purpose. He did not know that this would happen.
883060	889560	He didn't know that if I used my card that was connected to our joint account,
889560	896060	the receipt would show up because he registered his card with his information.
896520	899900	It just happened to be the same account number.
900240	903220	Remember, you're supposed to give three pieces of information
903220	907880	and he gave all three, but they choose to use only one of them.
911470	918910	Other types of programs that do the same, or apps, are parking apps and toll passes
918910	925030	because they track license plates. And some of the applications that I've checked out
925950	933990	do realize that license plate numbers are not secret and bank account numbers are not secret.
935130	940890	But quite a few of them treat this information as if it was secret.
944430	949010	Now, I'm sure I haven't seen every kind of version of this.
949010	954710	And if you know of a version of this kind of stalkerware that use other kind of data,
954710	956570	please let me know. I'm interested.
961790	966770	When I talk to people about this kind of software and the application that is
966770	973570	giving my significant other my receipt, people tend to not understand the problem.
973570	978850	Let me show you.
979810	988410	This is me. I go to the grocery store. I buy tea. When I'm done, I pay. I take the paper receipt,
988410	994790	I curl it up, I throw it in the trash. When I leave, as far as I'm concerned,
994790	998450	transaction is over. We don't have a relation anymore.
1000150	1008070	The app is a key that gives us a relation. But I don't want to have a relation with the store,
1008070	1015770	so I don't use apps like that. However, my significant other came along and he made a
1015770	1020010	connection. And because he made a connection, he knows about the connection. And because he
1020010	1024830	knows about the connection, he's in control of the connection.
1027660	1034300	As far as the store knows, he is the rightful owner of this information because he put in the
1034300	1041480	account number. And they just don't validate this in any other way. You know the account number,
1041480	1051540	you must be the customer. So, in case you're not sure there is a problem, I want to spell it out
1051540	1058880	for you. First of all, I'm sure you already thought about that, okay, people that are
1058880	1066800	hiding from violent partners or still living in abusive relationships would probably need
1066800	1077260	to be protected from this kind of stalking and leakage of data. But also politicians, activists,
1077260	1088140	journalists, union representatives and religious people do need to be or may need to be particular
1088140	1100920	about their privacy. In addition to these groups, as I said before, I think a lot about humans and
1100920	1108460	what they are and what they do and what they do with technology. I have three other groups. First
1108460	1119080	of all, the elderly. Elder abuse is a thing. Elder abuse is when typically relatives, but also
1119080	1128740	perhaps friends and neighbors of the elderly, when they start to be abusive to the elder person.
1129500	1139500	In this context, perhaps they started having opinions about what should the person spend money
1139500	1145540	on? What should grandma be allowed to buy? Should grandpa be allowed to buy so many beers?
1146800	1152120	Should grandma be allowed to buy so much candy? You know, because she has diabetes.
1154640	1161700	They are grown and adult and their own person with their own money.
1162560	1176140	But they do get unwanted attention from people around them or may get that. Now, there's children.
1177040	1184800	And children, while the smallest children will typically not have a credit or debit card to pay
1184800	1191980	with, when children start to grow up, parents, at least in Norway, start giving their children
1192800	1198400	debit cards with a little bit of money so they can start practice and understand
1199060	1204980	what are money and how expensive are things and, you know, what are things,
1204980	1210080	how does this work? Is it real or is it, you know, imaginary money?
1212100	1221060	And children do need to be protected and have their own privacy, not only from strangers,
1221860	1230680	but also from their parents and relatives and friends. Of course, if everybody was nice,
1231190	1238980	children wouldn't need this, but everybody's not nice. Not every parent is nice,
1239510	1249820	so they deserve their privacy. And then there's teenagers or young adults.
1249820	1261260	And teenagers, they need to have their privacy protected from everyone. Parents, friends,
1261260	1270000	strangers, relatives, employers. There's so many groups of people. They may have opinions
1270640	1278660	and negatively affect teenagers' lives if they knew what teenagers were buying.
1278660	1286420	Just imagine you as a 13-year-old. What if your mom got an instant notification every
1286420	1297700	time you went to the store? Would that affect you? What if you were 16 or 19?
1297860	1302440	In Norway, you are technically an adult when you're 18,
1303620	1313080	but just because you got older, your parents may not be ready to let you be an independent person.
1317810	1327170	Now, groceries. How bad can it be? I guess you already thought about the candy and the alcohol
1327170	1336290	that I mentioned. But in Norway, you can buy the following items in every grocery store.
1338390	1350510	Candy, alcohol, lottery tickets. How many lottery tickets should your significant other allow me
1350510	1360950	or allow you to buy, for instance? Is that a thing? Shouldn't be. Anyways, magazines.
1360950	1367370	You know, not everybody prefer things online.
1368890	1375510	Tobacco. You can get over-the-counter pharmaceuticals such as painkillers.
1376720	1381090	You can get intimate products such as tampons and pads.
1383010	1390090	Not every girl want to share with her dad instantly when this is a needed product.
1391270	1399810	And you can get condoms and pregnancy tests. That will be a fun conversation to have, right?
1401750	1407710	Not in every store, but in a lot of stores, they sell what's called a morning after pill
1407710	1423110	or an emergency contraception. I guess most teenagers, if they were caught buying this,
1423110	1430370	it would be embarrassing. Perhaps they'll get grounded or they will have a fight with their
1430370	1441810	parents. But some will not survive that their parents know this. And that is why teenagers
1441810	1447650	is such a vulnerable group, because they are growing up and supposed to make independent
1447650	1458170	choices, but are still very close and dependent on their families. So, even though I only bought
1458170	1467990	tea, there's nothing very radical about that. I did go through the motion and thought about,
1467990	1476770	was there something I could have done differently so that I wasn't unintentionally, but still stalked?
1479550	1490230	And I came up with these points. First of all, if I never shared my account number with anyone,
1490230	1495800	then I would have been safe. Unfortunately, account numbers are not secret.
1496790	1505490	And if you want money from your employer, you definitely will have to give your employer
1505490	1511650	an account number to transfer the money to. And your family and friends, if they want to give you
1511650	1516410	perhaps a little attention when you have a birthday,
1517510	1520650	you need to give them an account number to transfer the money to.
1524790	1534890	So, it's not very realistic. So, I thought, what if I had a dedicated account for receiving money?
1535490	1543690	That could work for me specifically. But for people who have a shared economy
1543690	1552970	with someone else, married people or living with someone, or again teenagers,
1552970	1561930	it would be completely normal and expected that other people, their parents or their spouse,
1561930	1573010	know the account number. I could have paid with cash instead of with my card.
1575730	1585330	That would have worked until March 2020. Because March 2020, the COVID-19 virus hit Norway
1586260	1593990	and a lot or actually most stores stopped accepting physical payment money
1595610	1602530	because they were afraid that the COVID-19 virus would be transferred via the money.
1602870	1616770	So, it's card only. I could have chosen not to shop at that particular grocery store chain.
1619130	1625310	But unfortunately, that particular one together with the other one that I mentioned also have
1625310	1636010	the same app. Together they have a 76% market share. And in Norway, well, I live in, let's call
1636010	1645430	it a large town where not a lot of people, but we are enough people that I have a choice. I could
1645430	1653650	have bought my lunch somewhere else. But in a lot of towns spread around Norway, you only have one
1653650	1668570	or two shops and probably one or two of those specific stores. Now, I did discover that when
1668570	1675450	I started to register my own card in the application, I got an error message that says
1675450	1681210	that this card is already registered. It meant that they had some kind of control mechanism
1681210	1688790	so that only one person would register the account number and my significant other already
1688790	1695890	had registered the account number. So, I couldn't. I did, of course, verify this.
1695890	1705110	I verified by asking some friends if they would allow me to stalk them for a while.
1705350	1712690	And because my friends are my friends and know what I do, they said yes. So, I stalked my friends
1712690	1724300	to verify that the application actually worked the way I suspected. Yes. But to sum it up,
1725480	1731060	I can't really protect myself from this kind of stalkerware. I can protect myself from the
1731060	1740020	classical type by changing all my devices, by having dumb phones, you know. I can protect
1740020	1748820	myself from the other type, the stalkerware as a service, by not registering anywhere.
1748820	1754660	But this type I cannot protect myself against. Not even in theory.
1756260	1764600	It's not practical. It's not possible. And because, unfortunately, I do think there are
1764600	1775220	other applications that rely on different kind of not really secrets. And I can't keep up with that.
1776120	1782000	In reality, I wouldn't know if someone tried stalking me this way,
1782000	1789540	unless they did something to make me aware of it. Like asking me, where is the tea?
1791890	1797870	But I'm not giving up. So, what do I do? Well,
1799470	1809730	I realized that that grocery store chain, making stalkerware was probably not their primary
1810770	1817570	business. They're not, not their intention. It's just something that happened as a side effect,
1817570	1823510	because they were doing this side gig that was collecting data and trying to be cool and
1824470	1835250	new and digital and so on. So, I contacted them and told them about this.
1840090	1848450	So, I believe in responsible disclosure. Give companies a chance to fix their mess,
1848450	1857570	and so it stops hurting people. In this case, I told them.
1858350	1867530	We talked, I explained, it was nice. I gave them a limited time for them to fix the problem.
1868110	1874150	I do work in software, with software development. So, I do have a rough idea of how much time would
1874150	1879210	be reasonable, because I didn't want to give them forever, because you know what happens then.
1880170	1888790	So, halfway through my deadline, I follow up and ask how are things going,
1888790	1895010	how's the progress, just in case they for some reason needed extra time.
1896290	1903180	Well, they thanked me.
1904060	1911420	And then they gave me a bounty, which is nice and super rare, that never happens in Norway.
1911440	1922360	And then they did nothing. Nothing. They decided it was more convenient to keep things the way
1923200	1933340	it was. When they decided not to fix things, I had to decide if I wanted to warn the victims.
1934300	1944190	Now, warning victims meant going public. Going public is not all cool and fun,
1945000	1950890	because if I didn't reach out enough, I wouldn't be warning victims.
1950890	1955870	I would be giving harmful people another tool to be cruel.
1958310	1965150	So, I had to think about it. In addition, it has a personal cost, because as I mentioned,
1965150	1970980	I'm a consulted tester. Companies hire me to test their software.
1971880	1979360	If I made waves, they may see me as a troublemaker and not hire me in the future. So,
1980100	1984020	that is also something I had to think about. Was it worth the risk?
1988270	1996290	I decided it would be worth the risk. I contacted a journalist that I know understands technology.
1996970	2003790	He worked at the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation. It's a national news channel in Norway,
2003790	2008840	it reaches around 80 to 89 percent of the adult population on a daily basis.
2010650	2020310	And for a few hours in the morning, the case got the front page.
2020550	2029430	And it was on heavy rotation in the news and on the radio. And that felt so good,
2029430	2033770	because it meant that I got the outreach that I needed.
2037050	2047050	The journalist was a good journalist, so he also called the company responsible for the app,
2047630	2058390	and they had made a statement. But around 24 hours after this got published,
2058390	2065370	they decided to close the feature that was facilitating stalking.
2065830	2071270	And that was even better. That was a real win, because it meant that this software
2071270	2082430	was no longer harming people. Unfortunately, this was only one out of two that was using the same
2082430	2088950	software. And the other people, they were also asked for a statement, and they decided
2090510	2096990	they didn't want to do something. They decided it was worth the risk, which is pretty unfair,
2096990	2104150	because they're not really risking anything. They're taking a risk on other people's behalf.
2105370	2111190	But anyway, they decided they wanted to wait and see what happened, and whether or not
2111970	2122050	the first company would get a GDPR fine. Like, they had to pay to the authorities.
2126030	2132570	Yeah. So,
2132570	2138430	the Trumf app in Logiskruppen still has the issue, as far as I know.
2139050	2142210	In addition, there was a lot of parking apps.
2142210	2150070	It came up as a part of the discussion that followed going public with the app feature,
2150070	2154690	because people started telling me and others that, you know what, but my parking app is doing the
2154690	2161850	same thing. I can add cars that I don't own. There's no verification. And I checked up on it,
2161850	2169170	and several companies have been told and warned, and they as well just decided it was worth the
2169170	2183600	risk. In other words, it wasn't worth the effort. Now, I'm not done.
2185100	2191500	And neither are you. So, if you find this stuff out in the wild, please do something about it.
2192020	2199680	I suggest, first, tell the owners or makers. They're not always the same people.
2199680	2208780	So, give them a proper, clear explanation. Include some abuse scenarios. You can use some
2208780	2216920	of the ones that I mentioned, because they don't always get the problem. They just see
2218120	2223320	somebody contacting us, wanting us to do and spend money and time on something. So,
2223320	2229240	you really need to be clear about it. If there's an authority you should be notified, notify them.
2230040	2235840	In Norway, we do have an authority. It's called the Datatilsina. I'm sorry,
2235840	2245960	I don't know the English translation. And I did tell the creators and owners of the app
2246480	2252760	that they had to notify Datatilsina themselves, because that's how it should work.
2252760	2263260	And they did. But most importantly, educate yourself and others around you,
2263260	2275600	so that you don't unintentionally make stock aware. And if it's worth it, go public.
2276810	2279910	After you've done a responsible disclosure.
2280890	2289750	And after going public, if that didn't work, you know what? Shame them. Shame the companies
2289750	2303420	that refuse to be decent. Tell people about it for a long time. Now, first step in educating
2303420	2311060	yourself is to look up these two eras. They're both badass. Read the article that is mentioned
2311060	2318400	here. And please watch the video. It's good. I'll make sure that the links are published
2318400	2327400	somewhere related to this talk. And if you're still ready for more, after reading the article
2327400	2335160	and watching the video, I recommend the collection that the Vice Media Group made.
2335800	2341460	It's called When Spies Come Home. And it's a good collection of articles
2342220	2348140	around that shows the problem with stock aware, really. Yeah.
2349580	2353020	And if you have questions, let me know.
2356360	2364260	Thank you for your time and for your patience. I hope you're as pissed off as I am.
2377300	2381460	That was Next Level Stock Aware. Thank you again to Cecilia and Vianne.
2381460	2386580	We are very thankful to have you here. So, our speaker is now here for a live Q&A. So,
2386580	2392720	please put any of your questions in the Discord CPV Q&A channel. Currently, we have one question
2392720	2400460	so far. Speaking of child protection from the commenter, I am in Utah. A bit of a bubble over
2400460	2405620	here. What is right about deploying stock aware against a child and wrong about deploying it
2405620	2413180	against an adult? Okay. So, one of the difference between being an adult and a child is that
2413180	2420680	children learn to make good decisions. And if you want to teach your children to make good decisions,
2420680	2426320	you need to give them the space to actually do it. And privacy is a part of that. And as they
2426320	2431260	are growing and become more and more independent and have more and more independent opinion
2431260	2440900	and experiences, they also need more privacy. Because as I mentioned, not every parent is nice.
2440900	2447520	And if we make sure that every child gets some kind of privacy, there is room to tell others
2447520	2453620	that they're not fine. So, it's just like we really need to make sure that every child gets
2453620	2459100	this and not just the children who have it nice at home. Because you can't really tell.
2459900	2466500	And I'm aware there's some cultural differences when it comes to how independent and how much
2466500	2476900	privacy a child can have. But in essence, from like from a pedagogic perspective,
2476900	2481860	if you want your children to make good decisions, you have to give them the space for it.
2486520	2492710	That is really, really lovely. And hopefully any future parents or current parents in here
2492710	2500090	are listening to this and hear that thoughtful advice. We have another question also saying,
2500090	2504590	I know Norway is already GDPR compliant. Is there anything policy related that you could
2504590	2513410	push forward to combat stalkerware? Yes, there is. I did tell there's the
2515630	2521550	hang on, let me remember what they're called. It's like authorities for computer and digital.
2522090	2528850	They have a very complicated name. But anyway, and they are the ones who are handling all GDPR
2529390	2535250	complaints and issues. And they also have a mandate to give out fines, for instance.
2536830	2543810	And Norway, you're supposed to tell, you know, confess if you have an incident that is related
2543810	2548710	to privacy. And I did tell the company that I was in contact with and told them, you know what,
2548710	2553510	you really have to do this yourself. Because if I tell them, it's going to be very bad.
2553770	2559850	And they told them. And when I went public, they said that, well, we have to look into it again,
2559850	2565190	because they were essentially just putting the case in the bottom. And just like,
2565190	2570290	yeah, because of the way that the company had displayed the situation, because they said like,
2570290	2576250	it's not really a big issue at all. It's like one person and so on. And when I went public and
2576250	2583790	issue was like revealed, they were like, oh, we have to pick this up again. So I expect
2585270	2591250	in, but it will probably take like six months to a year before they actually will make a proper
2591250	2599090	legal statement and, you know, serve a fine related to this. And that is the thing that
2599090	2606510	the other company is waiting for. The one that's not changed their app. And but the authorities
2606510	2614930	are great. It's just that they have a lot to do. So everything is super. We can definitely tell
2614930	2622890	them just takes forever. And while we're waiting, more people are being hurt. So I just, yeah,
2622890	2629070	it's frustrating. Oh, gosh, that is quite a lot of time for things happen.
2629090	2637050	Yes, we have another comment with some context behind it for US context. Here in the US,
2637050	2641930	some cities are requiring all stores to accept cash, because many people don't have credit cards.
2641930	2647250	Would you recommend using cash whenever buying sensitive items? Yes, I would.
2648410	2655910	I definitely would. And if you don't have cash, or like the situation is now where some stores
2655910	2663250	will not accept cash, ask a friend you trust to pay for you. If you have reason to suspect,
2663250	2672980	or if you are sensitive about whether you're buying. That's a really interesting point.
2676120	2680840	At the moment, I don't think we have any more further questions from the discord.
2680980	2686780	Thank you so much again, Cecilia, for joining us today. And for your really lovely talk.
2686780	2687960	Please take care and...