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680	9220	Thanks. Thanks, Whitney. Thanks to the Crypto Village for fitting me on on the last minute here. I know this is pulled together rapidly.
9220	14300	So today I'm going to talk to you about the FOIA process.
15200	19780	I call this talk Fun with FOIA, just hitting up the government for sweet, sweet secrets.
20680	27380	So what I intend to do here is to give an overview of the FOIA process and how you can make it work for you.
28300	38380	So what's FOIA? So a lot of people don't necessarily know that the government does have a pathway for giving you documents that belong to all of us.
38400	41540	So FOIA stands for the Freedom of Information Act.
42040	51020	And so what this is designed to do is to disperse documents that are sourced from the government.
51840	60360	It's true information. It's usually, in some cases, it's raw information. In other cases, it's processed information. It all depends on what you're asking for.
60360	71280	But the beauty of the Freedom of Information Act is that it allows common people to make these requests, you know, at will for almost any topic that you're interested in.
72360	76480	It's a very powerful process. It doesn't have to cost you any money.
76480	83480	In some cases, it will cost money, but we'll get into the nuance of all of this as we go along.
85440	90480	So, okay, so why would you want to interact with the government in the first place?
90480	103720	I don't know why you'd want to interact with the government on any other basis, but the Freedom of Information Act is something that we should all be involved in because it boosts transparency in a way that not very many other governmental processes allow for.
103720	112820	So if you're interested in a topic and you want to know more, you think maybe the government might have some information, FOIA is going to be your way to get that.
113020	122220	So maybe you're doing research on a topic. You've got an area of interest and you want to know more about it. FOIA may be the way that you can do that.
122300	130720	There are a lot of different complications that make FOIA challenging in some ways and liberating in others.
130720	139180	Again, something we'll get into in a little while, but with this process, you want to have a topic in mind when you get started.
139260	144380	So let's just jump right into how we would do this.
144820	154480	So I'm going to kind of try and keep the context of everything I say around a topic that's of interest to me and probably a lot of people who are on the stream.
155420	175840	Working with a colleague of mine, Emma Best, we put together a project to look through government documents that involve the history of hackers and events that have happened to the government or may have been investigated by the government around information security.
175840	189280	We call this hacking history. And on muckrock.com, which is a site that you can use to submit Freedom of Information Act requests, we are over 1% of the requests on the site now.
189280	196940	By far, we're the largest by requests. We're the largest program project on muckrock.
196940	204160	So we've put in, I think I got an update today that we have over 850 requests in, which is quite a bit.
204160	215020	Enough of my bragging. So with hacking history, it's a large umbrella topic that you can ask all kinds of different questions about.
215020	227220	So this can range from anywhere from malicious code that the government may have to specific events the government may have been investigating or even involved in directly.
227220	235320	It could involve people. So there are a lot of subtopics that fit into this topic that you can ask the government about.
236320	242040	So to get started, we can think of something that we want to ask a question about.
242040	251620	So because we're talking at DEF CON, because we're having a DEF CON weekend here, and I've got some information back, which I'll share at the end of the slideshow.
251760	255920	Let's take DEF CON, for instance. So let's say that you want to know more about DEF CON.
255920	262060	The process here is to try and target something that you think that the government may have specific information on.
262060	271540	So an event like DEF CON, you would want to start by asking questions that pertain to that specific event that happens yearly.
271540	286780	In a way, this is kind of like... it's a little like social engineering, but not in the more technical way that the actual good social engineers, not like myself, can do this.
286880	294220	So you want to think of questions that will get the best response for the questions that you're asking.
294220	301200	So when you think of a topic, try and make it something specific, but you don't necessarily have to make it super, super specific when you just get started.
301200	309700	You can start with something that's very broad in nature and try and target documents that you think maybe may comport with a broader sense.
309700	316560	So like, if you're starting broad, start with something like indexes.
316560	323580	So asking for indexes of things is a really good place to start if you're not really quite sure what you want to ask about,
323580	329260	or whether you're not quite sure if there may be documents that exist on the topic in the first place.
329260	337480	So you can ask a government, for instance, for indexes of programs that pertain to a specific topic.
337600	350220	So you may be able to ask the Federal Bureau of Investigation about... for an index of maybe hacker conferences that they've been tracking for the last, you know, 10 or 15 years.
350500	357520	Which brings me to another kind of sub-genre here. So you want to kind of think of... make sure that you time-bound everything.
358180	368440	So don't just ask for like everything the government has on X if it's a really big topic. Try and keep it something very specific in time.
369720	379980	Oh, let me go back one. So when you're asking these questions, yeah, time-bound it. Keep it between a certain time frame.
379980	390460	I usually start with January 1 of a specific year. And then if I want to go for five years, I might go January 1 of like 1990 to 1995 or something like that.
390580	398540	I like to be specific about the exact day that I wanted to start and end. I just think that makes it easier.
398540	408180	Because really, you have to remember that on the other end of this process is another human and the other human may have different quirks about how they would provide information to you.
408180	420560	So time-bounding helps with larger topics to kind of chunk it down. It saves a lot of time on the other side of the search.
420560	428900	So when the FOIA officer gets the request, they'll be able to take that information and do a search against it.
428900	445230	But there are requirements that the government tries to stay under. So what I mean by that is the government is not obligated to provide you everything that they have and just work on it indefinitely.
445730	463230	It has to not cause... I think with the wording they use is reasonable distress. It's got to be a reasonable request. You can't ask for an entire database of something and expect that you're going to get it back.
463450	472530	So try to, especially if it's a larger topic, kind of try and keep it in a self-isolated kind of like chunk of information that you expect to get back.
472530	483830	This can also be helpful if you're not sure what you're going to get back in the first place. So if you think that there may be a lot of information there, the time-bounding really helps with that.
484230	501850	So when I did my request for DEF CON, for instance, I chunked it down to like the beginning of DEF CON, which is like 9293 timeframe to 1997. What I ended up getting was like wildly... it was way up into the 2000s that I got some information.
502350	508510	And that's just kind of one of the fun things about the FOIA process is that you never really know what you're going to get back. So it's kind of like a treasure hunt.
509730	512690	Okay, so who can you ask questions to?
513190	520910	You can ask questions to any government agency. Every federal government agency is required to be responsive to FOIA.
521690	530410	How they are responsive to your requests is part of the nuance. So a lot of my requests, for instance, go to FBI.
530410	548850	If you wanted to ask something about special forces, so about a specific special forces organization, you might want to send a Freedom of Information Act to the Special Operations Command, which is just a sub-genre of the Department of Defense.
549050	555850	You can also duplicate that request and send it to the Department of Defense to see if they may have anything kind of broader.
555850	573550	You can ask the Central Intelligence Agency. You can ask the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Any government agency that takes public funding, which is all of them, has to be responsive to FOIA in some form or fashion.
573550	590670	Some of them are better than others. Famously, the NSA is not good with FOIA. They take forever to acknowledge your FOIAs. When they do finally acknowledge them, the searching takes a lot longer than really it should.
590670	608350	I think by law, they're bound to provide full service to all requests within 10 days, but it almost never goes down that way. So be prepared for disappointment and long timelines, especially depending on who you ask.
609950	620650	But your FOIA requests are not just limited to federal agencies and federal entities. You can also, in a lot of cases, you can ask your local entities the same questions.
621750	638870	Especially if they're of local interest. So if you wanted to ask your local police department questions, you're almost assured to be able to do that. So it's not quite the same as the federal mandate, but local jurisdictions also, municipalities have to follow.
638870	652870	They usually have their own form of the Freedom of Information Act that mirrors what the feds use. So any question that you might ask to the police or to the FBI, you can probably ask your local folks as well.
653630	661210	Okay, so here's the fun part, the ask. So when you go to do your asking, we already touched on a little bit of this.
662450	669750	Have a topic in mind, that's one big thing, but also have specific questions that you want to ask in mind.
669830	681870	So if you're unclear when you put your request in, again, remember there's a human on the other end of this process, and there's a good chance that they're not going to know what you're asking for if you're not super clear about it.
681870	694690	So if you tell them that you want something that's very vague and up for interpretation, or it's muddy and difficult to divine what it is that you're asking for exactly,
694690	701310	the FOIA officer is bound to just kick it back to you and say, like, I don't know what you're talking about. Be more specific.
701770	711330	So don't give up if you get a rejection when you send in your first few. Just try to hone in on exactly what it is that you want to know about.
711870	726390	I know I had a ton of rejections when I first started asking before I started to figure out, like, oh, I guess you can't, you know, you can't just ask CIA about aliens because they've been asked this question probably a million times, and
726990	736830	they probably don't really have anything good in the first place. So, or something that's releasable, which is another thing that we'll get into shortly.
737390	741010	So when you do this asking, try to be as specific as possible.
742350	754550	Even when you're not quite sure what to expect back. So when you start a research project, you may start with fewer details. So let's say that you put in a request for an index
755130	762890	because you have nothing on the topic that you're interested in. And the index is going to come back and it's going to have some information that will kind of give you threads to pull.
762890	772010	And so when you start to pull those threads, you'll be able to figure out what kinds of questions to ask next that will be more specific to your area of interest.
773470	780550	So when you format your question, again, make sure it's time bound. Even if you're asking for something that you know that the government has
781170	791290	for a specific time frame. I like to put like buffer space on either side. So give it maybe a year before and after the event, if you're asking about an event.
791330	797370	And just see if they've been collecting information prior to or after the event was supposed to have taken place.
798330	805930	Good things to ask about events, programs, individual specific, all of those things are great places to start. So
805930	812190	if you have like a specific hacking event, for instance, that you want to ask about.
812510	813870	Let's just say like
814990	818010	there's a Citibank hack from 1995.
819150	827750	If you know exactly when that happened, time bound it for that year. Maybe give yourself some six months on either side.
828930	837290	If you know that there's a specific individual you want to ask about, there are a few more things that you have to keep in mind when you actually go to do the question asking.
838550	841450	And those are more that we'll get into in just a second.
842450	845130	But make sure that you just like if you want to know about
846270	860550	let's say you want to know something about Kevin Mitnick. There's a lot more here. But if you want to know something about Kevin Mitnick, you ask the FBI, you know, give me all the information that you have, any documentation related to Kevin Mitnick between the years of X and X.
861850	872650	And make sure that you include things like audio visual, handwritten notes. It also really helps to get familiar with very specific government documentation.
872650	894610	One of my favorites to ask for is FBI FD 302 documents because 302s are what the FBI uses to take handwritten notes. So FBI agents are not required. They're actually, I don't know if they're disqualified by mandate to not be able to actually record conversations that they have with
895830	909650	as interviews with people. So with sources and just like bystanders. So the way that they do this is they take handwritten notes. So all those handwritten notes go into the FBI database and you can ask for those those handwritten notes.
909990	917030	So asking for FD 302 is always great. There's always all kinds of like funny extemporaneous information in there.
918010	927290	Keywords are great. Specific records like an FD 302, even if you don't know they exist, ask for them anyway. Indexes we already covered.
928190	938230	Basically, you can ask for anything that qualifies as a public document. So anything that's recorded by the government technically becomes a public document.
938250	944950	But just because you ask for them doesn't mean that they have to give them to you. So there will be some exemptions that we'll have to deal with in this process.
944950	947210	So when you get responses,
948090	958830	this is going to take some time. So give yourself plenty of... make sure that you're very patient with this process. I've still got FOIAs waiting for responsive documents that I've been waiting for
959770	969690	for the last couple years. I put one in for a well known hacker that probably people on the stream know of named Trick.
969690	980970	I've got one into the Defense Intelligence Agency for Trick and I am not expecting that one to be done until December of 2021. So be patient,
980970	993210	especially if you're asking for something that's been classified or is currently classified. Just have patience with the process. A lot of times they'll declassify it if it's relevant and it's older.
993970	996590	But that's kind of just the luck of the draw.
997730	1009450	So do's and don'ts. Okay, so things that you should do. Ask specific questions. Time bound your requests. FOIA for the dead. So here's an interesting thing about people.
1010010	1018670	So when I just gave that example about doing a Freedom of Information Act request on Kevin Mitnick, you wouldn't get anything back in all likelihood
1020750	1033950	because he's still a US person and he's still alive. So when you do a request like this, you have to make sure that you are following their rules for asking for information.
1034150	1041750	If the person is dead, you can ask these questions and just provide an obituary. In most cases, that will be enough.
1042290	1046090	The obituary has to be from a publication that's well known.
1047110	1054850	You can't just send them like a local newspaper probably won't cut it or like a blog post or something. Trust me, I've tried this and it doesn't work.
1055230	1063330	So don't be disappointed if you send them something and they just flat out reject it. I've had that happen before, even if I think that it's good enough.
1064310	1074210	There are also exemptions, though, for the US person's policy, which is what prohibits the government from sharing information about living US persons.
1074250	1082770	One of those is an exemption for public figures. So I don't know that Kevin Mitnick would qualify as being a public figure.
1084430	1091970	But if you were to ask for something within the last 10 or 15 years on Mitnick, probably they're not going to share it.
1092130	1098270	Unless, you know, unless he dies tonight, which I hope that didn't happen, but just sibling.
1099050	1105770	Yeah, and remember that there's a person on the other end of this. So don't be a huge jerk to them.
1107470	1118990	Most of them are earnestly trying to be helpful to you. So try to be polite, especially if you get something back, like be very thankful, grateful to them for being helpful to you.
1119070	1124010	You don't have to kiss their ass or anything, but like just be aware that they have been trying to help you.
1127380	1132480	Oh, I forgot that I made these highlighted. Okay, so don't. Okay, so really don't be a jerk.
1132480	1144840	The person on the other side can just decide to slow the process. Like there's really no punishment. So if you've been a total asshole to them from the get go, they can just slow roll it.
1145300	1154500	And that's not going to be helpful to you. At the same time, though, don't back down just because you've been denied doesn't mean that you can't appeal.
1154500	1166960	So this kind of another kind of like subroutine in this process is that when you ask a question and you get rejected, that doesn't necessarily need to be all she wrote.
1167500	1179700	You can do appeals. So if you get a rejection, you can say, you know, I don't know that you did a thorough enough search of your records. I'm pretty sure the FBI might have files on this.
1179700	1187740	So I would like to appeal this this finding and and then that goes on to another authority to kind of like double check the work.
1188280	1197160	More often than not, they will just do what they call an affirmed on appeal, which means that they'll just say, nope, we got it right the first time, even if they didn't.
1197340	1204880	And so then it's it's kind of game over at that point, unless you get a lawyer and then you can take them to court to fight them.
1204880	1213620	That's like a whole other ball of wax, though, that's not really primed for this specific beginner's tutorial on FOIA.
1214120	1226940	Don't ask for sources and methods. So if you go to CIA or FBI or NSA and you say like, give me all the documentation you have on like all the exploits you have.
1226940	1231900	They're not going to they're not going to just give up the goods because you asked them nicely.
1232000	1245760	They would classify that as sources and methods. So that information is highly, highly protected because it provides the information that provides the government with a future pathway to to procure new information.
1246040	1251700	So yeah, so don't like don't ask CIA about their purchasing programs or like
1253600	1264840	specific things that they do to handle assets or anything like that. They're not going to talk about it. Don't waste your time. Don't waste their time. Like you're just going to aggravate them and you'll be aggravated as well.
1266680	1280640	Don't ask about living US persons. This is kind of a general rule. Again, just kind of a waste of time. There's, there's not going to be and most people don't really have there. I think there's this notion that people just have like government files all over the place.
1280640	1297220	Probably not. So, so don't count on like doing a FOIA request for your neighbor and expecting to get this like big file of information back that you can use against them in your next disagreement. It just doesn't, it just doesn't work like that.
1297780	1306180	You can, though, do a FOIA request on yourself. So that is another kind of like loophole to the whole US persons exemption. So
1306180	1315820	if you wanted to do a freedom, freedom of information as a tongue twister, if you wanted to do a FOIA request on yourself, you can do this.
1315960	1330120	All you have to do is submit a privacy waiver. So what that does is it's, it's basically a form that you fill out and you send into the agency and you say, like, I'm, I'm forfeiting my, my right to privacy on this basis.
1330120	1343160	What they do is they'll send you the information that's pertinent to that request. So if you are, if you've had run-ins with the FBI in the past, or if they've interviewed you or something and you want to get that information later on,
1343160	1351960	totally do it. They're not going to make it public and put it on a website or something. I would, I would suggest not doing it through a site like MuckRock because MuckRock will just publish it
1352480	1354740	if you want it to remain private.
1356140	1370900	But if you do it through, directly through the FBI's online portal, if you put the request in that way, then they'll just send the information directly to you and not make it public in any other way. So definitely encourage you to do this if, if you have interest in your own information.
1373160	1380980	Okay, exemptions. So like I said before, just because you ask the government for something does not necessarily mean that they're going to just give it to you.
1380980	1392160	And ways that they will deny giving you information that you ask for is through, they'll usually do this with exemptions. So you tend to see exemptions more when it comes to
1394280	1409660	specific national security organizations. So some of the common ones that we see all the time are B-1, and I'm just kind of paraphrasing what this means. If you see a B-1, this may come in the form of a redaction or just a full out, like, we're not going to give you anything.
1411260	1420380	Usually it will come attached to a document. So when you see, when you get a document back, there will be like a big blurb that will just be, it'll have a big white box over it. And then they'll have
1421460	1435460	the exemption listed in the, in the margin. So B-1, yeah, it's really, really classified. It's, it's National Security Act stuff. So like, no, no, we're not kidding. It really is. This is actually really, actually classified.
1436100	1454620	So they'll exempt it for that reason. B-3, this is CIA's NOPE rule. It's specific, it's, it's protected by a very specific statute in law. I can't think of any examples of this right off the top of my head, but this is something that's generally used by, by CIA.
1455540	1470880	B-4 is a, is a one that protects trade secrets. So you'll see this oftentimes in the form of like a propent proprietary information. That kind of stuff is, is really just to, there to, to protect intellectual property.
1471380	1476400	B-5, B-5 is one that I really, really hate.
1476400	1487180	B-5, when I see a B-5, what it says to me is like, fuck you in particular. What we call it in the, in the FOIA community is the withhold it because you want to exemption.
1488120	1494660	There's, there's not really, this is kind of a catch all that, that agencies will use. I've even gotten B-5s from like
1495720	1502860	the Department of Education. So it's not because the information is classified. They've just decided not to share it with you.
1504100	1514860	These ones, I think, though, you, you have much more luck fighting in court. If you got something that's completely B-5ed out, you can, you can hire a lawyer if you want to and see the information.
1515700	1525520	They really do need to, agencies, in my opinion, should be providing you with a better exemption than just, we're just, don't feel like sharing it with you. So, you know, shoo.
1526780	1539080	It does also protect interagency and intra-agency memos, though, which like still, it doesn't, to me, it doesn't matter whether it's being shared between two agencies or not. Like if it's releasable, it's releasable.
1539760	1554200	B-6 is one that protects personal information. So let's say that you, you've requested information about a very old CIA operation, for instance, and you get a bunch of B-6 back in the, in the responsive documentation.
1554200	1563640	It could be that you're getting like, like CIA cables back and inside the cables may have some specific personal information there that relates to people who may still be alive.
1564320	1578020	So if you see B-6, just don't, don't be shocked. And then B-7 is just the law enforcement exemption. It kind of protects local law enforcement. There are some others that you may see in particular for, for CIA. They use
1580020	1594080	X-series exemptions, which is, it just goes into very specific detail, which is actually, the fact that they're withholding it is, is, is what it is. But the fact that they give you very specific, specific exemptions that are specific to CIA is actually kind of helpful.
1594080	1609140	So you might get an X-series exemption for like a human source and they'll, they'll give you one that separates a human source out from like a technical source, etc, etc. So very, very helpful when you go to, to actually look at the documentation.
1609600	1617880	Okay, so now, now we get to the really fun part, which is my, my war stories. So here's one that people have really taken interest in.
1617880	1632000	I put a FOIA request in for Snoop Dogg to the Secret Service. This is Snoop, this is a snippet from Snoop Dogg's Secret Service dossier is kind of a, to put it in generic terms.
1632380	1641020	So very specific information in here. What we can gather just from looking at this is kind of the reason for why Secret Service took interest in the first place.
1641620	1656040	So there was a music video. I, this is actually why I did the FOIA because I knew that, that Snoop Dogg had made a video where he was pointing a gun at the president. And this, of course, gets like, this gets bootlickers dander up. So they really hate this when you threaten the president.
1656740	1666480	So they, they, you know, pull together an entire, an entire file on Snoop Dogg. And it's just, it's just, it's, you'll see what I mean.
1666980	1671380	So, so here we can see some very specific information about
1673420	1676380	about Calvin Broadus, his real name.
1677100	1685100	There's, there's some B6 information in here. So that's kind of what you're seeing in the, in the, with these exemptions here. Email address
1686700	1688140	being exempted.
1688140	1704320	The person who received it, the report number oddly is exempted under B6. I'm not really exactly sure why, but these are, these are names. These are specific email addresses. This is kind of another weird one down here. This is kind of an odd B6, but here are all of Snoop Dogg's
1706320	1708440	his, his like aliases.
1709300	1718320	Notably, they didn't include Snoop Lion because nobody really wants to remember Snoop Lion, but unless it's redacted under B6.
1719040	1726200	So, so, so this is, this is kind of a good place to get an idea of why you would get a B6 in the first place.
1728300	1733580	And, and so also recently I got some information back on DEF CON in particular.
1733980	1744340	So if you, if you do a request for something like DEF CON, you're going to get a lot of information back. And this is kind of what the top of one of the documents might look like in a header from FBI.
1744840	1760000	So like routine precedence, it'll give you a date, which is very helpful in terms of kind of grouping what information you got when and maybe how to categorize it. So when you come back to do research later, you can like put it in different folders and all of that.
1760580	1769080	They will also do B6 redactions. So you're seeing that happen here. These are, these are specific FBI agent names and different handler,
1769080	1777520	information custodians, information handlers, and then you'll have something that will kind of give you a general idea of what you're looking at.
1778080	1784080	The title of this one was computer crimes. I'm not sure. It looks like it went to the Los Angeles field office.
1785600	1789420	And there's, there's two in here. So to Miami and Los Angeles.
1791260	1798740	And I think this is, I think this is Washington Metropolitan field office, I think. So that's going to be the Washington FBI field office.
1799680	1812600	And then a couple just specific things that are kind of fun from this one that I got was here. Here's what the FBI wrote for their release of BackOrifice in 2000, which happened at DEF CON.
1814600	1825340	So this one came out at the, at the 2000 instance of DEF CON. And what we see here is just kind of the way that FBI was characterizing the release of this tool.
1825340	1836360	So a previous instance of BackOrifice had been released and FBI had kind of looked into it, but I don't, I don't know that FBI really knew what to do with the information that it was out there.
1836440	1848960	But definitely when BackOrifice 2000 came out, it was like, okay, now we have to be serious about this because we can't, we can't just, we can't just act like we don't know anything about this one. So they actually did start looking into it.
1848960	1860580	And there are also files floating around out there about the Cult of the Dead Cow anyway, so there's a ton of stuff the FBI had already compiled on CDC prior to, even prior to this.
1861480	1876880	And then this is kind of an interesting one that came out about DEF CON in 2010. So they, the FBI opened an entire program called Slam & Jam, and this is an investigation into a stolen laptop that came from General Dynamics.
1876880	1883400	Really crappy name, but it kind of gives you a rundown of some of the information that they collected and where.
1883700	1895920	Another kind of note here about this one is the header here, secret. That's a previous classification. They exit out like this when it becomes declassified, so it's not still secret, just in case someone had a question about that.
1897280	1912240	So they do, FBI is very, very good about classify, about classifying information or like formatting it in a way that's very easy to read. Not every agency is good about this, but FBI is very good about it in particular.
1912240	1921220	So Slam & Jam, and here's, here's like an excerpt that came from this, this investigation.
1922540	1929860	They, the FBI specifically talked to DEF CON security to try and get some information about who might have stolen this machine.
1930980	1945260	One of the, my favorite part is this, this one here about the DEF CON employees Googling the computer model and discovered it was a ruggedized laptop and that it may be GPS tracked. And then this was kind of like my favorite part of my favorite part, which was
1946940	1957020	the DEF CON organizers at the time said that a drunk DEF CON employee tested the ruggedness of the computer by repeatedly dropping on the ground. So
1957920	1964320	being very, very careful with, with, with computers with potential government information on them.
1966080	1984520	So just a lot of really interesting stuff that you can get out of this process. I really do encourage everyone who has interest to, to, to participate in this. It's, it's a, it's something that we are really lucky to have in the United States. And it's, it's, my opinion is very underutilized.
1985220	1999220	FOIA is, is probably better in the United States than it is in almost any other Western country, UK included. I even know people who do FOIA work in the UK and they get exemptions like way more than we get exemptions.
1999220	2019640	So we have this tool, use it, advocate for it to be stronger. Here's a little bit of background on the project, the Hacking History Project, in case you're interested. So it's just at mockrock.com, which is a 501c3, it's a nonprofit organization that kind of helps with government transparency.
2020380	2028100	So you can, you can jot that down real quick. I don't know if we can, we can probably drop it in the chat at some point, if there's chat available.
2028520	2038120	And that's all I have. So if there are any questions, I'm happy to take questions. But here's my information in case you're interested and want to see stuff in the future or if you want to engage later on.
2039100	2040920	So that's, that's all I got.
2042000	2045680	Awesome. Thank you so much, Emily.
2046340	2053740	So let me double check the Discord. We didn't have any questions come in via Discord, but I had a question for you.
2054620	2061600	I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I have never actually submitted a FOIA request before.
2061600	2075320	Are there any things that like you gave a lot of really great tips and tricks for your first time? What's like the number one big error that someone makes when they make their first FOIA request?
2075820	2088580	So, so I know that a lot of the ones that I did early on were just way too broad. And it becomes kind of like, I don't want to, I don't want to use, make it mundane and say like, it's an art to do FOIA. It's not really an art. It's just something that you get used to over time.
2088580	2104480	So when you, when you do a request, try to make it as easy to understand for the person who's reading it. Like if you can't understand, if you were to like take your, your brain out of your head, so to speak, and imagine what it would read like if you weren't writing it yourself.
2105000	2126060	So I used to get them back all the time for just lack of clarity. So if you, if you want to get responsive documentation, try and make it readable and, and perfectly understandable. So it doesn't matter like how dummy the person is reading it. If they can understand it, then they will try and help you.
2126880	2132420	Another kind of tip that I didn't bring up is that there's this, there's this thing I call the sweet spot.
2132420	2149340	So there's a sweet spot in classification that's like 30 years back. So knowing when, when information stops being classified or when it needs to be re-evaluated for classification re-up is really helpful to FOIA investigators.
2149340	2167040	So if you're asking about something that happened in like the 80s or the 90s, now is actually the perfect time to be asking government agencies about that. Because it's probably if, especially if it's been classified as top secret, they're going to have to re-justify that. And they're, they're not often going to like jump at the opportunity to do that.
2167040	2184840	So information that hasn't maybe been made public before is kind of up for grabs in that 30 year span of time. So definitely if there's something that you know of that happened in the 90s or something that you want to investigate in that timeframe, do it, do it now so that you can, you can get your request in and maybe get something back.
2184840	2199340	That's awesome. That's actually a really interesting tip because I'm sure the 90s were really, really interesting, especially for hacking. And so I think maybe the greatest thing to come out of the 2020s will be more information about what was going on in the 90s.
2199340	2200100	Right.
2200100	2219960	Emily, thank you so very much for your time and jumping on for a last minute presentation. It's just an absolute pleasure to have you on our brand new stream. I look forward to hopefully seeing you in person at DEF CON next year, or at some other event, but thank you so much for your time.