WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:11.020 So let me, first of all, welcome you virtually to the DEF CON Ethics Village and introduce you briefly to those who will be watching. 00:11.020 --> 00:16.500 This is FCC Commissioner Jeffrey Starks. 00:16.500 --> 00:24.470 Commissioner Starks was sworn in as an FCC Commissioner on January 30th of 2019. 00:24.870 --> 00:37.370 He had previous experience at the FCC, helping to lead efforts in the FCC's Enforcement Bureau by, among other things, handling a number of complex investigations. 00:37.370 --> 00:48.890 He also has prior Department of Justice experience as a Senior Advisor to the Deputy Attorney General on a variety of domestic and international matters. 00:48.890 --> 00:52.230 And this was all during the Obama Administration. 00:52.330 --> 01:09.770 And before Commissioner Starks entered federal public service, he practiced law at Williams and Connolly, clerked on the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, and also served as a legislative staffer in the Illinois State Senate and worked as a financial analyst. 01:09.770 --> 01:13.810 So thank you again for your time, Commissioner Starks. 01:13.810 --> 01:16.650 Let me just briefly say my name is Stephanie Pell. 01:16.650 --> 01:18.550 I'm a professor at West Point. 01:18.550 --> 01:37.110 And because I work at West Point, I'm always required to say whenever I open my mouth in public that even though this is about you, we're going to be talking about your views, anything that should come out of my mouth are my views and do not represent the views of West Point, 01:37.110 --> 01:40.210 the Army, or certainly the United States government. 01:40.750 --> 01:46.090 So let me just start with an opening question, Commissioner Starks. 01:46.090 --> 02:01.590 For those who may not be terribly familiar with the FCC, could you give us some brief background about its structure and mandate, specifically in reference to the issues we will discuss today? 02:02.050 --> 02:02.430 Yes. 02:02.430 --> 02:06.030 Well, as always, great to be in dialogue with you, Stephanie. 02:06.030 --> 02:13.790 Glad to be joining DEF CON 2020, obviously virtually here this year in the ethics village in particular. 02:14.450 --> 02:29.550 And so for viewers who might not be familiar with the FCC, it's an independent federal agency established back in 1934 under the Communications Act, and we're charged with, you know, regulating interstate and foreign communications by radio, television, 02:29.550 --> 02:32.590 wire, satellite, and cable. 02:32.830 --> 02:38.950 And so to the structure of the commission, it's directed by five commissioners, including myself. 02:38.950 --> 02:43.710 Each commissioner is appointed by the president, subject to Senate confirmation. 02:44.010 --> 02:55.350 And because we're an independent agency, only three commissioners can be of the same political party, the president obviously designating one commissioner as the chairperson. 02:55.350 --> 03:10.190 You know, and to the breadth that we serve, we have seven bureaus, 10 offices of career civil servants for the most part, senior engineers, economists, obviously a lot of this is wrapped up in their expertise and experience with communications. 03:10.190 --> 03:20.270 And so Congress has given us significant and specific responsibilities, but broadly we are regulating the nation's communication networks. 03:20.270 --> 03:39.970 And so that includes, you know, promoting deployment of advanced communication services like broadband, like we're going to talk about, ensuring best and highest use of wireless spectrum, administering the universal service fund, which is a fund that ensures access to modern communications for the low income, 03:39.970 --> 03:46.290 for rural folks, for schools, libraries, regulating foreign access to U.S. 03:46.350 --> 03:48.030 communications marketplace. 03:48.030 --> 03:50.170 We may get into some of that a little bit later. 03:50.820 --> 03:56.650 And then finally, you know, what folks would think of regulating radio and broadcast television. 03:56.650 --> 04:09.350 So the last thing I'd kind of focus on rounding this out is, you know, because communications is such a broad term, you know, some folks may think that we have certain authority that really isn't us. 04:09.350 --> 04:17.630 And so when people think about who regulates Facebook, that is a lot of other people, Department of Justice, the FTC. 04:18.350 --> 04:22.130 And so, you know, there are a lot of things that we do. 04:22.130 --> 04:30.470 And then we obviously, you know, there are things that we have jurisdiction over, but other folks have other points. 04:30.610 --> 04:44.870 And then if you have followed the issue of network neutrality, you know, there is obviously, you know, some fluidity between administrations on what is the extent of the FCC's authority and what's within our jurisdiction. 04:44.870 --> 04:53.910 I think we do have authority to enforce network neutrality rules, but some of my, in particular, Republican majority of the FCC disagrees with me. 04:53.910 --> 04:58.170 So that's kind of a little bit of the lay of the land, as it were. 04:58.810 --> 04:59.530 Thanks. 04:59.530 --> 05:09.670 So as you acknowledged, in more normal times, we would be, you know, meeting in person, having this discussion live in Vegas. 05:09.870 --> 05:12.130 So we're not doing that now. 05:12.130 --> 05:26.430 We've all had to adapt in a number of ways, moving significant portions of our lives online, including work for those who have college or school age children. 05:26.430 --> 05:33.570 You know, a good portion, if not all of their education, has suddenly become virtual. 05:33.670 --> 05:43.390 So I'm wondering, how has your focus at the FCC and your work changed since the beginning of COVID? 05:43.750 --> 05:45.730 Yeah, it's a great question. 05:45.730 --> 05:51.810 You know, in some ways, through a certain lens, you know, the Commission has continued its work. 05:51.810 --> 05:54.690 We have all been working remotely since March. 05:54.690 --> 06:05.650 And we have had, as we're required by statute, we've had monthly open meetings, and we're voting items, and we are proceeding with our work apace. 06:06.510 --> 06:18.270 You know, but in a lot of other ways, in particular, the issue of digital divide, and who has broadband access and who doesn't, has been my top priority. 06:18.270 --> 06:21.490 But that really has been amplified in a lot of ways. 06:21.490 --> 06:38.870 The last few months have laid bare the already cruel reality of the digital divide, that millions and millions, tens of millions of Americans don't access, cannot afford broadband connections that they need to telework, to access telemedicine now, to help young people learn, 06:38.870 --> 06:40.110 as you mentioned. 06:40.110 --> 06:44.530 And addressing this long-running crisis has never been more urgent. 06:44.530 --> 06:56.730 When public health requires social distancing, even quarantining, as many of us have been doing, closing the digital divide has become central to our safety, and certainly it's powering our economy. 06:56.830 --> 07:06.250 And so, you know, a number of weeks into the crisis, in early March, I published an op-ed in the New York Times calling for a connectivity stimulus. 07:06.370 --> 07:13.870 We obviously have a lot of ways where we're talking about stimulus for public health, for our economy. 07:13.870 --> 07:26.170 I think we need a connectivity stimulus, because regulators, industry, we have to, and need to even now more so than ever, dramatically expand access for broadband during this emergency. 07:26.170 --> 07:30.830 Some of those ideas that I laid out initially in March have been implemented. 07:30.830 --> 07:37.110 We are leaning into the flexible use of wireless spectrum that's underutilized. 07:37.110 --> 07:45.230 Broadband providers have joined the fight, waiving some data caps, the Keep America Connected pledge, opening Wi-Fi networks. 07:45.230 --> 07:48.790 But really, truth be told, Stephanie, it hasn't been enough. 07:48.790 --> 07:51.590 And I have called for us to do more. 07:51.930 --> 08:12.250 We are... And speaking, if I can just, speaking of doing more, I want to specifically reference a recent, an additional op-ed, a recent one that you co-authored with a number of prominent civil rights leaders, the Reverend Al Sharpton, Venita Gupta, Morial, 08:12.250 --> 08:14.170 and Morita Coley. 08:14.170 --> 08:25.170 And the op-ed, for those who haven't seen it, is entitled, Broadband Access is a Civil Right We Can't Afford to Lose, But Many Can't Afford to Have. 08:25.630 --> 08:35.230 In that piece, you and your co-authors speak directly to how COVID-19 has exposed this digital divide. 08:35.490 --> 08:42.250 And could you talk more about the scope of that digital divide problem? 08:42.250 --> 08:44.950 Yeah, happy to. 08:44.950 --> 08:53.770 And like I said, the digital divide was present even before COVID-19, but it has really been exacerbated. 08:53.810 --> 08:55.870 And I wanted to emphasize that. 08:55.870 --> 09:08.590 The fact of the matter is that the late John Lewis, one of my heroes, said that internet access is the civil rights issue of the 21st century. 09:08.590 --> 09:10.530 And I agree. 09:11.850 --> 09:25.710 The Communication Act instructs us to make communication service available to all Americans without discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or sex. 09:25.950 --> 09:34.830 And so civil rights leaders have long held government accountable where we have unfulfilled promises. 09:34.930 --> 09:46.970 And so closing this digital divide, I was honored, deeply honored, to join some of those civil rights leaders talking about how, in particular, with communities of color, we need to close the digital divide. 09:46.970 --> 10:05.100 As we outlined in the op-ed, 34% of African Americans, 39% of Latino adults, 47% of tribal groups all lack access to broadband connection, significantly, disproportionately less so than their white counterparts. 10:05.550 --> 10:13.630 And so when you're talking about civil rights issues, we have to have it access ubiquitous for all. 10:13.630 --> 10:15.230 And it has to be right now. 10:15.230 --> 10:22.250 There needs to be a fierce urgency of now that we solve these digital divide issues. 10:22.250 --> 10:32.270 And for communities of color, that means reliable and convenient access to educational resources, to workplace materials, telemedicine, like I said. 10:32.270 --> 10:43.210 You know, the fact of the matter is that we have... this is a rural issue in some ways, making sure that folks get access everywhere. 10:43.210 --> 10:55.910 But the fact of the matter is that we've seen this as well throughout the pandemic, that in densely, highly populated urban areas, there are nearly three times as many households that remain unconnected. 10:55.910 --> 10:58.950 And that is frequently communities of color. 10:58.950 --> 11:06.730 Over 18 million households lack broadband simply, solely, research estimates, because it's too expensive. 11:06.750 --> 11:19.550 And so one of the things that I've called for, and have worked with Congress on, is that for both the emergency and for the longer term, we need to have a more affordable connection for millions of Americans to the internet. 11:19.550 --> 11:23.750 We know 50 million-plus Americans have filed for unemployment assistance. 11:23.870 --> 11:29.610 And so making sure there is an affordable way that they can connect to high-quality broadband is going to be important. 11:29.630 --> 11:33.130 Something else that I would talk on really quickly here is the Lifeline program. 11:33.130 --> 11:42.090 It's the federal program specifically designed to provide free or discounted telecom service to low-income Americans. 11:42.090 --> 11:45.630 We know that this program is grossly underutilized. 11:45.630 --> 11:52.430 About seven and a half million Americans are on Lifeline right now, despite over 38 million being eligible. 11:52.430 --> 12:01.390 And so we have got to make sure, for example, we know that more Americans are on food assistance, on SNAP, right now than ever. 12:01.390 --> 12:07.410 And if you have food insecurity issues, you probably also have digital insecurity issues. 12:07.410 --> 12:12.130 So I've called for us to better coordinate with USDA that runs SNAP. 12:12.130 --> 12:18.150 If you are knocking on the door for help there, we should also make sure that you get connected to the Lifeline program. 12:18.150 --> 12:24.150 And so there's a lot of ways that we need to make sure that our government is not working in silos right now. 12:24.150 --> 12:26.110 And I think that's really important. 12:26.330 --> 12:26.770 Sure. 12:26.770 --> 12:36.630 So these are... you've just listed some very specific prescriptions that you and others in the civil rights community have called for. 12:36.630 --> 12:39.690 How supportive, in your view, is Congress being? 12:39.690 --> 12:41.510 What can they do? 12:42.030 --> 12:49.890 Yeah, you know, I think in particular, obviously, we are seeing that there is a new COVID... 12:50.630 --> 12:55.490 I think it's the fifth part of the package that's being negotiated right now. 12:55.570 --> 13:01.110 Broadband has still, to date, not been included in some of those congressional packages. 13:01.110 --> 13:07.310 And so providing more money for E-Rate, another program that we have to provide money to schools. 13:07.310 --> 13:12.690 And the fact of the matter is that how is education and schooling being performed right now? 13:12.690 --> 13:13.770 It's in people's homes. 13:13.770 --> 13:22.410 So again, making sure that there's more money for E-Rate so that we can digitally connect with our youngest learners, including post-secondary. 13:22.690 --> 13:27.070 Lifeline and focusing on the low income has got to be an additional part of this dialogue. 13:27.070 --> 13:43.170 And then the third thing that I have really focused on with folks in Congress is making sure that there is some type of an affordable option that we are starting to think through as well in making sure that we have all houses connected. 13:43.170 --> 13:46.210 It's past time for us to connect all Americans. 13:46.210 --> 13:49.110 And Congress is going to have to help us out. 13:49.310 --> 13:50.690 Sure. 13:50.690 --> 14:08.030 So you started explaining the digital divide problem and then the prescriptions for solution by referencing the civil rights icon, John Lewis. 14:08.030 --> 14:23.750 And I will just note that that wonderful quote, access to the internet, is the civil rights issue of the 21st century, which you said is in fact, and it's timely and a little chilling the way that you all ended your op-ed. 14:23.750 --> 14:26.990 Yeah, I think that's exactly right. 14:27.070 --> 14:35.190 And when, you know, like I said, when John Lewis speaks, thank God so many people listen. 14:35.190 --> 14:45.890 And so that quote from John Lewis many, many years ago is what really kind of framed for me the ubiquity of broadband access being a civil right. 14:46.010 --> 14:54.390 And so, like I said, was proud to partner with so many leaders on focusing on how we actually make this thing start to happen. 14:54.390 --> 15:13.950 And in particular, like so many things that are going on right now, both in the pandemic and also in the racial justice, not only the moment, but the movement that we're seeing going on right now, and making sure that communities of color and the inequities that we see with regard to broadband are part of that focus. 15:14.290 --> 15:15.510 Sure. 15:15.630 --> 15:36.270 So if I may, I'd like to switch gears a bit and just reference the fact that there has been an ongoing debate about the extent to which the FCC has jurisdiction over cyber security, or at least some aspects of cyber security. 15:36.270 --> 15:39.070 There's different views on this. 15:39.070 --> 15:43.070 Can you sort of frame the contours of the debate for us? 15:43.070 --> 15:50.890 And let us in on what side of the debate or where along its continuum you fall? 15:51.070 --> 15:51.810 Sure, sure. 15:51.810 --> 15:52.150 Thank you. 15:52.150 --> 15:53.330 Great question. 15:53.330 --> 16:04.310 And so, you know, as you referenced in recent years, various commissioners have expressed different views about how involved the FCC should be in cyber security issues. 16:04.310 --> 16:10.210 During the Obama administration, I'd note, the FCC sought an active role in cyber security. 16:10.210 --> 16:15.450 And the current chairman, of course, I would note, has been much less involved. 16:15.450 --> 16:21.510 And so some of the differences fall on where people interpret our statutory authority. 16:21.510 --> 16:40.270 Some of my colleagues, Republican colleagues, feel strongly that we should very narrowly construe our instructions from Congress and, you know, only in a very limited scalpel-like way regulate cyber security when Congress expressly tells us to. 16:40.270 --> 16:43.650 I think that is too narrow a view. 16:43.730 --> 16:52.730 The Communication Act, in setting up the FCC's authority even long ago in 1934, said that it was creating the FCC. 16:52.730 --> 17:06.410 We were imbued in part for, you know, I quote, the purpose of the national defense, purpose of promoting safety and life and property, you know, close quote, if I'm memorizing it from memory. 17:06.470 --> 17:13.130 You know, and so I think we have a responsibility for modern networks to raise these kinds of concerns. 17:13.130 --> 17:15.930 And the FCC should have an active role. 17:15.930 --> 17:24.890 Some of the debate is practical moving on from some of the statutory, has been anointed with leadership, a leadership role here. 17:24.890 --> 17:30.870 And so again, some of my colleagues would shift all of that to DHS. 17:30.870 --> 17:40.830 And I think the FCC has valuable, essential, relevant expertise and experience that should come to bear here. 17:40.830 --> 17:44.970 And so pushing it all to somebody else, I think does us a disservice. 17:44.970 --> 17:54.030 And so, you know, I would also kind of briefly tick through what's going in my mind is, you know, a couple of the ways where we do have a role here. 17:54.030 --> 17:57.930 We evaluate license applications from foreign ownership. 17:57.930 --> 18:01.850 And this includes a national security review from team telecom. 18:01.850 --> 18:08.710 For some of your viewers who may know, cybersecurity is also part of the process of reviewing submarine cables. 18:08.710 --> 18:15.430 And this is a critical part of how we connect data and it's transmitted across the world. 18:15.430 --> 18:17.950 So there are cybersecurity elements there. 18:18.170 --> 18:24.130 And then something that I've really focused on, and that is removing untrustworthy equipment from our networks. 18:24.550 --> 18:44.170 And, you know, we at the FCC, you know, in large part, because I kind of called and beat the drum here, is focusing on removing this untrustworthy equipment where universal service fund, again, this is the fund that we administer at the FCC, making sure it's not used to purchase insecure equipment, 18:44.170 --> 18:49.030 Chinese equipment for Huawei ZTE, you know, I think are really important. 18:49.030 --> 18:56.030 And then the kind of the last thing that I would mention is, you know, we have the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement at CALEA. 18:56.030 --> 18:58.850 I know you have a DOJ background as well, Stephanie. 18:58.850 --> 19:12.530 And so CALEA, and this is also coming, you know, how we establish policies and procedures to prevent unauthorized surveillance is something that continues to kind of flare up. 19:12.530 --> 19:16.350 And I think it's something that we need to continue to have a voice in. 19:16.950 --> 19:20.570 And I do think that issue is not going away anytime soon. 19:21.210 --> 19:29.470 So let's say for the sake of argument that it's January 21st, 2021. 19:29.850 --> 19:32.650 And I don't have a crystal ball in front of me. 19:32.650 --> 19:46.610 But for the sake of argument, let's say there are now three, instead of two Democratic FCC commissioners, let's say there are three like minded Democratic FCC commissioners. 19:46.610 --> 19:52.510 And let's say you're incredibly influential among the three. 19:52.510 --> 20:06.610 So if you have that kind of clout and influence, what kind of cybersecurity focused initiatives or actions would you wish the commission to take? 20:06.690 --> 20:09.190 Well, I like the question. 20:09.410 --> 20:14.630 And I will say as well, I'm not in the prognostication business. 20:15.110 --> 20:26.330 And so I'll focus on what some of my priorities that I'm going to continue to be talking about, regardless of future administration. 20:26.690 --> 20:39.730 And so, you know, the first thing I would focus on is, like I said, I was the commissioner who has met the most with the small carriers who have insecure Huawei and ZTE equipment in their infrastructure. 20:39.730 --> 20:42.230 I came out with find it, fix it, fund it. 20:42.230 --> 20:48.590 That was we need to find insecure equipment, we need to fix it and remediate it, and then make sure we fund it. 20:48.590 --> 20:53.290 And so the last part of that is something that we still need to work with Congress on. 20:53.290 --> 20:55.070 And so that would be something that I would focus on. 20:55.070 --> 21:00.730 We have not appropriated funding for the repair and replacement part of that. 21:00.730 --> 21:12.810 As a result, you know, we do have some, you know, recipients who are lacking the funds to maintain their networks, even though we have already prohibited them from using Huawei ZTE. 21:12.810 --> 21:25.870 And so, you know, I would focus in, you know, in the future in January, on making sure we open up those lines of communication and have that better funding as well. 21:26.130 --> 21:33.330 You know, I think that has to be priority number one on a network security and cybersecurity kind of front. 21:33.330 --> 21:40.090 The second thing I would really focus on is, you know, kind of a vision board piece that I have been focusing on for a while now. 21:40.090 --> 21:52.910 And that is, you know, promoting network security as part of our communication network and development, and not proposing bandaid remedies, but really kind of being forward-looking. 21:52.910 --> 22:16.070 And where I really see this coming about is in our 5G future, and in particular, the Open Radio Access Network, or O-RAN, solutions, and making sure that we have, going forward, a real American role in the distribution and single system of interoperable hardware that emphasizes software, 22:16.070 --> 22:19.010 defined functions, open interfaces, cloud hierarchy. 22:19.010 --> 22:21.510 All of these are going to start to come together. 22:21.670 --> 22:37.430 And so from a networking standpoint, increasing efficiency, cost-effectiveness, you know, O-RAN is also going to provide the capability for scale and design improvements, updates at lower costs, faster timetable. 22:37.450 --> 22:41.870 And so we've got to continue to focus on this aspect of network security. 22:41.930 --> 22:59.130 And something that I've called for even most recently, just even as last month, is that especially when we're talking about in a rip-and-replace world, where we are, the American taxpayers are going to be rebuilding these networks for a lot of carriers. 22:59.130 --> 23:08.730 I think it is, I think it is time for us to make sure that some of those carriers hear from an O-RAN option. 23:08.730 --> 23:22.810 And so I think that's going to help promote it as a business case, as a product, and making sure that O-RAN really goes from what some in this administration have called pie in the sky, and really making sure that that O-RAN becomes part of our real world. 23:22.810 --> 23:26.770 I think it's going to be a part of American security going forward. 23:26.970 --> 23:35.070 The last thing that I would kind of be on my vision board is focusing on end-user device security. 23:35.110 --> 23:45.090 As I mentioned in particular with the digital divide, lifeline phones and providers often have low-cost devices. 23:45.090 --> 23:49.970 And so two common manufacturers of these low-cost devices are Huawei and ZTE. 23:50.370 --> 24:00.050 And so when you're talking about those devices, it's been revealed that sometimes they are embedded with malware, can be encrypted multiple times. 24:00.050 --> 24:05.890 And so some of the phone's settings and applications make it virtually impossible to uninstall. 24:05.890 --> 24:08.870 And so that's an issue that I have focused on. 24:08.870 --> 24:20.190 I think we need to make sure that the prices that people have around using to pay for a phone that's affordable is not compromised on some of these security and privacy issues. 24:20.190 --> 24:21.630 I think that's unacceptable. 24:21.790 --> 24:27.470 And because the commission has control over the lifeline program, I think we need to use that authority. 24:27.470 --> 24:33.310 We're obligated to make sure that the basic functionality here does keep our Americans secure. 24:33.310 --> 24:39.370 The last, last thing that I would mention that I've called for a number of times is internal changes at the FCC. 24:39.370 --> 24:43.130 We need to create a national security task force. 24:43.130 --> 24:54.130 The fact of the matter is that these network and national security issues and the cross-section that they have with our network issues have continued to come up. 24:54.130 --> 25:05.430 And we need to have a better, more collaborative way that we approach these issues rather than it being kind of whack-a-mole even at the FCC. 25:05.810 --> 25:08.430 Internal coordination has got to increase. 25:08.550 --> 25:13.470 We cannot have inconsistent treatment on these vital issues of national security. 25:13.530 --> 25:15.310 And again, these issues just aren't going to diminish. 25:15.310 --> 25:16.130 Quite the opposite. 25:16.130 --> 25:27.450 I think the complexity of these issues are going to only mean that we're going to have to step up more and deal with these with a cross-collaborative mindset. 25:28.110 --> 25:58.190 So, sort of to close out, it seems that you are very much focused not just on national security and privacy, but how the practices that we implement, those values, those outcomes, do not have disparate impacts on various communities. 25:58.190 --> 26:02.130 In other words, this needs to be a holistic approach. 26:02.130 --> 26:18.250 And frankly, you are an advocate, it sounds like, for the FCC playing an important role at addressing these issues in a holistic way and specifically in a way that does not have a disparate impact on communities of color. 26:18.250 --> 26:20.650 I could not agree more. 26:20.650 --> 26:39.050 And the fact of the matter is that so many of these issues, when you're talking about network issues and cybersecurity issues and privacy issues, so many of these are intertwined and commingled in ways that I think the FCC has a real role and a real voice to play. 26:39.050 --> 26:55.290 When I look at some of the surveillance issues, when I look at some of the AI issues, some of the algorithmic bias issues, a lot of these are having a disproportionate impact on communities of color, on the marginalized, on the most vulnerable. 26:55.290 --> 27:15.330 And so, I'm going to continue to use my voice and use my platform to make sure that these are issues that have a spotlight shine, and we're working through them with policy, and we're making sure that there is equity and digital equity that is brought to bear on a lot of these issues. 27:15.330 --> 27:21.410 So, could not agree more on that proposition. 27:21.950 --> 27:35.510 Well, Commissioner Starks, again, I promised your staff that I would keep time on this and not make you late for your next Zoom or call, if you will. 27:35.550 --> 27:36.090 Yes. 27:36.090 --> 27:37.390 Thank you. 27:37.390 --> 27:40.430 Thank you so much for your time. 27:41.150 --> 27:52.410 You know, hopefully, we'll be in a very different situation as a nation and as a world next year, and we can continue the conversation in person in Vegas. 27:52.410 --> 27:53.630 I'll look forward to it. 27:53.630 --> 27:54.830 Always good to talk to you, Stephanie. 27:54.830 --> 27:55.490 Thank you so much. 27:55.490 --> 27:56.330 Be well. 27:57.390 --> 27:58.070 Thank you. 27:58.070 --> 27:58.810 Bye-bye.