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0	6700	All right. Welcome to my presentation. This is Hybrid PhysSec Tools. The best of both worlds
6700	12980	are just weird. This part of the tool is Lockpick Village for DEF CON 2018. My name is Didymus.
15200	19480	So I always like to start out with an agenda so we kind of know where we're going with the
19960	24060	conversation, as well as if you come back and watch this recording or view these slides,
24060	29280	then you know, kind of bookmark where different things were. So we're going to start out talking
29280	34680	about what are PhysSec tools? What do we use them for? And then why? Why are we looking into
34680	41020	the whole hybrid concept? And is there even a need? And then what about PhysSec tools? What's
41020	47620	already out there? What are some ideas that work? What don't work? And then we'll go to the how.
47840	52620	So this is something I'm interested in. How do I start? Or what would I do if this is something that
53060	57700	speaks to me that I'm kind of interested in? So with that, we'll launch right into it.
59280	64340	A little bit about me. I've been picking locks for about 13 years. I picked it up when I was
64340	69820	in college. I had a locksmith uncle who taught me a lot of the things and just went from there.
69840	76500	My favorite pick is DeForest Offset. And my least favorite pick is this thing.
77060	82860	My day job, I'm a security engineer for a technology company on their security operations
82860	88320	and engineering team. And I'm a lockpick enthusiast. And I'm also happily married
88320	95440	and a father of four children. All right, launching into it. So what are PhysSec tools?
95820	100860	First of all, when I say PhysSec, I mean physical security. I mostly say that because I don't want
100860	104700	to have to say physical security tools a million times in this presentation.
105820	111580	So if you think about it, any tools that are used to test and or compromise physical security.
111820	117920	I made up this definition, but that's the basic gist of it. So a few examples of this that you
117920	122220	may or may not be familiar with. If you're watching this presentation, you're most likely
122220	128180	familiar with it. So things like lockpicks, bypass tools, drivers, jigglers, shims, etc.
128180	136180	are all examples of PhysSec tools. A couple weird examples, not so much weird, maybe just
137100	141800	a bit different, or maybe things that you might not consider as physical security tools,
141800	147420	are things like multi-tools, your standard Gerber, Leatherman, SOG type things. Wedges,
147420	153420	these could be aluminum, these could be the air compressed wedges, as well as compressed air.
153420	158600	These are the cans that clean your keyboard and computer parts. And then film reel, you can
158600	166500	actually use reel-to-reel theater film reel to compromise certain types of doors. Check out Pope,
166500	170220	he's got a few videos talking about this as well.
172000	175920	Some awesome examples, so things like the thumb latch tool. If you don't know what this is,
175920	180160	you should definitely check it out. It's a really neat tool, extremely useful, especially with
180160	184440	double doors and things like that. And then the under-the-door tool. I don't know a single
184440	188460	physical security pen tester who does not have an under-the-door tool.
188860	194780	They are a must-have. They make the job very easy and very nice to have.
196660	201020	And then there's the stuff that works in the pinch. So this would be like your standard
201020	206940	bobby pins, paper clips, safety pins, stuff you find around. Like you could take a pop bottle and
206940	211280	cut it and then you have something that you could shim with. This would be, you know, kind of the
211280	218540	MacGyver method, I guess you could say. So let's talk hybrid for a minute. Hybrid tools, the way
218540	226320	I'm interpreting them, is like when typically there's one tool that's used traditionally to
226320	232680	manipulate a lock or bypass a latch or a door or something like that. But a hybrid tool is like
233220	239140	there's more than one use for it instead of just the very specific one. I didn't want to use the
239140	242980	word multi-tool in this presentation because I didn't want to confuse it with actual multi-tools,
242980	250720	your Leatherman, your Gerbers, your things like that. Also, I do want to get this disclaimer out
250720	256220	right here at the beginning, but hybrid doesn't always mean better. And what I mean by that is
256220	263300	just because it can do two things, it doesn't mean it can do two things really well. I remember years
263300	268040	ago I was thinking about getting a motorcycle, but I wanted something that I could ride and have
268040	272580	it be street legal, but I could also go dirt biking in the mountains. I was talking to some
272580	276540	of my friends and they said, yeah, you could totally do that. It's going to suck at both of
276540	281820	them though, so it's better to get something more specific. But that's not always the case. Sometimes
281820	288480	something that can do two things is still good at two things. It just might not be as well. So
288480	294000	kind of have this dichotomy of you have this super specific exact tool for this exact situation.
294460	300280	You want that or possibly compromise to have something that is more versatile, maybe not be
300280	306240	the exact perfect one you would use, but you're trained, you use it, and you can do more with
306240	311020	less kind of philosophy. So that's what I mean when I'm talking about hybrid tools. There's a
311020	316720	picture of a couple here where you have a top of the keyway tensioner here, as well as a tubular
316720	323620	tensioner, and then a comb pick. There's space on that. It's three tools in one. It's small,
323620	327440	it's slim, it's compact. And then another one is a double-sided pick.
329440	334780	And also creativity. This is kind of a way various people can express their creativity.
335140	339440	Someone will like it. There's always trolls. Someone will hate it, but someone will always
339440	346440	like it, is what I've discovered. So now we get to the why. So why would you want to do this?
346440	352080	Well, it comes back to that, can I do more with less? I like to think of the example where let's
352080	357980	say you're doing a physical pen test engagement, and you're going in during business hours. Like,
357980	363200	yeah, after hours, take your full tactical bag, you know, and everything. But if you're going in
363200	367740	trying to masquerade as an employee or tailgate or something like that, you can't go in with your
367740	373680	whole kit. You can't walk in in like a suit and tie, and then you have a 5.11 MOLLE tactical backpack
373680	378600	with all of your goodies and your go bag and everything in it. It's gonna stick out. So
378600	384180	sometimes you need like custom tools. A lot of times physical pen testers will actually have
384180	391540	custom tools for these type of situations. Again, creativity. This is a great way to do it. I'm not
391660	396200	a developer. You know, you come to DEF CON, a lot of people have these brand new zero days and
396200	402260	Metasploit modules and things like that. I'm not much of a programmer, but I like designing things.
402260	408120	I'm more of a physical tool kind of person. I like the actual creating something and holding it in
408120	413420	your hand. And another thing, like it could lead to better tools overall. And we're going to have a
414040	419240	couple examples of that coming up. You know, your silly idea might be the tool that locksmiths
419240	425600	and locksport enthusiasts have been wanting, but you just didn't know. So some things that
425600	431340	inspire me. I really like spy stuff. I like the James Bond films. I like the International
431340	437440	Spy Museum in Washington, D.C. I'd recommend, you know, when you can, check it out. It's well worth it.
437920	444040	Also, I like the S.E.A.R. stuff. So the survival, evasion, resistance, escape type stuff.
444460	452120	So this first thing here at the top is an actual titanium escape ring. It's got inside the ring.
452120	460340	It has a saw blade. It also functions as a handcuff shim. And it's kind of cool. I don't
460340	464560	have one myself, but I always thought that'd be kind of cool to have. Then the top right, bottom
464560	470220	left, these are two exhibits from the International Spy Museum. One is a jackknife from several years
470220	476500	ago. And then in the bottom left, we have one of the first lockpick pens, where the picks were
476500	481740	actually concealed inside the pen body. And then on the bottom right, we have an example of a Gerber
481740	487320	multi-tool that someone took and actually added lockpicks to it. So in this person's everyday
487320	491800	carry, he had a tensioner, he had a couple, you know, your go-to lockpicks. And there's
491800	497220	instructables on that. You can go to instructables and find this. And the link is in the notes as
497220	503540	well. So let's talk about an improvement example. I really like Sparrow stuff. They're not sponsoring
503540	508380	this or anything like this. I have a lot of their tools, but I do like Sparrow stuff. Some of the
508380	513200	things they have, kind of looking over here on the left, we've got their wafer jigglers, their
513200	516940	wafer picks. You know, four of them, they come on a keychain. They're really nice. They're good at
516940	522140	getting in cabinet locks and some simpler locks and things like that. And then on the bottom left,
522140	527700	you have your mini gem. This is something that I have a couple of. I really like it. And then
527700	532960	there in the middle, you have the Sparrow shank, which is used for decoding as well as bypassing
533620	537980	unshielded padlocks, different things like that. So you take these three different tools, three,
537980	543280	however many different tools, and they actually have a set called Sparrow's Dark Shift. So they
543280	549220	created an expansion set for this. And here on the right, you have your standard slim gem,
549220	553920	but they actually narrowed the handle down, kind of cut a few holes in it to give it a little bit
553920	558500	lighter weight. And then you look at the next two tools. Those are double-sided wafer picks.
558500	563920	They have the exact same profile as the Sparrow's wafers over on the left, but they're double-sided
563920	568380	and take up less space. They're very skinny. In fact, I carry these in my wallet.
568980	573460	Next, you have a Sparrow shank, which is shorter and it has a bit wider handle. So maybe you can
573460	579100	palm it better. And then this thing on the end is a hook rake pick that you can use both for
579100	584480	single pin picking as well as for raking. It's called the Quick Strike. And from what I can tell,
584480	590000	you can only get it in the Dark Shift expansion set. I really like it. It's fun. It's definitely
590000	595620	worth looking into if you haven't played around with them before. And then a couple things,
595620	601580	you know, first, you can use it as a hook or as a rake. And then they add these serrations. So
601580	605620	starting with that left one, it's kind of hard to see in this picture, but they're actually very
605620	611420	fine serrations. Part of the Dark Shift set that they made was so you could use it with or without
611420	616180	gloves on. So having those serrations, especially in the dark, would be extremely valuable.
616180	621480	Looking at the serrations on the two double-sided wafer picks as well as the Mini Jim,
621480	625140	you can see those look a lot more pronounced. And they actually look a little painful. They're
625140	629580	really not that bad because they're flat on top. I'll be talking about serrations here in a little
629580	634100	bit. But that's something where they took a couple existing tools, how can we combine them,
634100	639220	make them more useful, more versatile, smaller form factor, that kind of stuff.
640440	647340	Another example. So this is the Tag 5 Industries Scorpion lock pick set. This is something that I
647340	654900	acquired a few years, a couple years ago. And you'll notice that it's your standard tumbler,
654900	660460	sorry, your standard tension tools, as well as your standard picks. However, the handles are
660460	667140	very different. Definitely check them out. The reason why is because these were designed by a
667140	673680	covert entry specialist. He worked, from what I understand, exclusively for the government
673680	679600	agencies designing covert entry tools. Now, whereas with a standard lock pick, you hold it
679600	684220	more like you would hold a pencil. These you actually hold kind of like you're holding a
684220	690040	handle of some sort. Typically, when you're doing covert entry, you don't want to like
690040	694660	go up to a door, get down on your knees and start working on the doorknob. This is something where
694660	700160	you could actually stand up, hold it a different way, and look way less conspicuous. And this is
700160	706200	something that he designed for government agencies and the like before coming and making them
706200	711280	available to the public. They're really neat. They are different to get used to, but they are really,
711280	716720	really nice. I'm a fan of them. And as I mentioned earlier, I'm a fan of International Spy Museum.
716720	723960	They're actually featured in some of the exhibits. So let's talk about some hybrid tool examples.
723960	729900	This is Lock Noob. If you don't follow Lock Noob on Twitter and on YouTube, I highly recommend it.
729900	734700	He puts out great content. He's done a few collaborations. These are just three of the
734700	740000	collaborations that he's done. And then an interesting hybrid multi-tool that he designed.
740860	745060	I could go and explain it, but he does a much better job. Definitely check out his stuff. But
745060	751020	starting at the top left, we have the gut wrench. This is a locksmithing tool where when you would
751020	757620	take apart cylinders and change out the pins and stuff, at times you would need four or five
757620	762800	different tools. And he thought, why don't I just design one that has all of them in one? And I know
762800	767580	locksmiths that actually use this because I have one tool instead of having to rummage all over my
767580	771820	workbench and find the right tool to fit the right cylinder and the right diameter and stuff.
772520	778260	Moving over to the top right, this is a lock... I kind of think of it like a locksmith
778260	786160	kit in a multi-tool. He designed it in such a way that it had various picks, a knife,
786340	790280	a screwdriver so you could take out Phillips head screws and things like that, and your
790280	795500	standard American padlocks. A place to put tensioners, tweezers, as well as plug followers.
795880	800380	Again, these are YouTube videos. Check them out. He breaks it down way better than I could.
800820	805600	Moving to the bottom right, you have the goat wrench. So this is where he took
805600	813740	um where he took that tensioner that I showed earlier and there's some tubular locks that it
813740	817700	fits in there's some that it doesn't so he actually did a few prototypes took some
818340	822940	stock steel and designed his own and then once he got the prototypes where he wanted
822940	827300	did a collaboration with Sparrows and you can actually get the goat wrench today.
827780	831460	And then finally on the bottom left we have the Sparrows Medusa.
831460	837000	We'll we'll have a bit close up here in a second. I don't want you to point to notice
837000	842860	that it's a pick that you can do single pin picking as well as raking with.
845160	850080	All right, and now we get to the or just plain weird. So remember back in 1999,
850080	852860	the James Bond movie, The World is Not Enough, he had to break into someplace
852860	859720	and so he had like this switchblade actioned credit card and he flipped it out and you know I
859720	865400	I didn't pick locks at the time but going back looking at it it's very interesting. I mean
865400	872480	it's kind of we've got like some kind of S snake rate going on and then on the backside it's like
872620	879260	a multi multiple ridge type raking lock. I don't know it looked cool for Hollywood.
879440	884220	And then here on the right more practical from uh Johnny Depp's rendition of Sherlock Holmes
884220	892540	where he had various tryout lever lock warded style picks which is interesting. So or just
892540	896960	weird or practical or Hollywood I don't know but it is kind of interesting to see this stuff in
896960	904280	media. So back to Lock Noon for a second. This is a YouTube video where he talks specifically about
904280	910480	the Medusa and I kind of follow the same process he does at least that he laid out in this video
910480	917460	about designing new picks. So starts with sketches starts designing them you know here's what I kind
917460	922640	of want here's what I want it to do and start you know it's a lot easier to make mistakes
923220	927540	on pen and paper before you start making prototypes. So he started running through
927900	931400	a couple different designs what he was kind of thinking where he wanted to go with it.
932280	937580	Once you get to that point you can take the one you like and then you start making your own custom
937580	943420	prototypes. You can you know get some kind of rotary tool create this yourself or you could
943420	948560	even switch it over to computer-based modeling like CAD design go from that and then you tweak
948560	954500	and work with your prototype until you have something that you really like which eventually
954500	961160	ended up being the Sparrow's Medusa. And of course Lazarus you got this really beautiful artwork of
961160	966640	this Medusa figure with the snakes and the hair and everything it's a really it's a really beautiful
966640	973580	pick and it's also really functional when in doubt laser etching is pretty cool. So where to
973580	976880	begin this is something that's kind of interesting or maybe you've thought of a tool or something
976880	981740	like that so this is kind of the process I follow but it's like you know what am I trying to solve
981740	987520	or improve upon kind of start there like start brainstorming and I found that brainstorming
987520	993920	always works best when I'm picking. So and then ask yourself what's currently out there who's
993920	998920	already done a lot of the work like think of Sparrows taking their own designs and then tweaking
998920	1004160	them and making them better in the dark shift expansion. Then you get to the design and drawing
1004160	1008780	phase then you start doing prototypes and testing and then you know you repeat that until you're
1008780	1014280	happy with how your prototypes are and then you move to the production phase. So this is something
1014280	1019720	I did a few years ago when I when I came up with this crazy idea like I wanted something sort of
1019720	1024260	like a lock pick wallet card that was more than a one-time use like there's some that are good
1024260	1028200	like tool makes a great one I like that once you break it out you can actually put on a keychain
1028200	1035400	it's useful and there's some that you know they're definitely one-time use they're still good they
1035400	1040080	work in a pinch but I wanted something that was like reusable and durable and stuff like that
1040080	1045800	and I was trying to think of you know the spy type stuff so that's when I came up with like lock pick
1045800	1053400	And I did the same processes before I even followed Lock Noob, but it was like, I'm going to draw this out, you know.
1053460	1057420	This is definitely a hybrid tool. It stiffens my collar and it picks locks.
1057420	1063300	And then I started taking actual collar stays and cutting them up and trying to make useful picks out of them.
1063540	1067420	At that point, I started, I reached out to my brother-in-law, who is a machinist.
1067420	1071520	We started cutting them up and trying them and we started making them.
1071520	1078900	And you can see these are like Mark 1 and Mark 2 prototypes where I had really sharp lines and things like that.
1078900	1082180	And it wasn't really smooth. And, you know, that S-rake looks really dorky.
1082180	1085540	And I started tweaking the S-rake and then the diamond pick just looks ridiculous.
1085540	1091260	And so I worked on that. So still realize this is the first time I ever did something like this.
1091260	1099360	It's kind of like, OK, it may not be good at both things, but it's an interesting little spy gadget, what have you.
1100020	1105700	So let's say you do that, get your prototypes working the way you want it. Now it's time for manufacturing and production.
1105840	1110780	So I usually get my my raw materials from McMaster Car. I like their website.
1110780	1116300	You can order metal from there. It's very specific on the type, the gauge, the dimensions.
1116740	1120860	You pay more for it, but it's actually been pretty good for me.
1120940	1127900	As far as production, you can either design these all yourself if you have that kind of time or what I like to do, I actually pay someone.
1127900	1133080	I have a metal shop that does precision laser. I can give them my CAD drawings. I can give them the metal.
1133260	1138780	And then they just charge me for thickness and laser runtime.
1138900	1143620	So it's fairly affordable. And then as far as shipping, I've done it both ways.
1144560	1147540	You know, you could have like a Google Forms or a Google Sites type thing.
1147540	1153120	And once you fill it out, it sends you to a PayPal button. PayPal handles all the shipping and postage and stuff like that.
1153120	1154700	It works pretty well.
1156560	1163140	So when I did my Lockpick Caller stays, I did do a crowdfunding through Kickstarter, and it was definitely a learning experience.
1163140	1166820	There's some pros and cons, but, you know, this is all my opinion on it.
1167060	1170620	You know, what's nice is it's a great platform to get your stuff out there.
1170940	1176260	It handles all the campaigning, the deadlines. It reaches out to the buyers securely.
1176380	1179800	They handle all the processing and stuff. It's great.
1179800	1187920	There are some cons to it. Basically, you know, there's taxes. No matter how you do this, you should be paying taxes, right?
1187940	1197960	If you make more than you make, if you, from your backers, get up to $20,000 raised, they give you tax forms.
1197960	1200700	Otherwise, they're like, you take care of it yourself.
1200840	1207680	Also, they're completely, they can't be held liable in any way if you don't fulfill on payments or things like that.
1207680	1212440	And then, you know, when the campaign ends and you're funded, you don't immediately get the money.
1212440	1217700	It could be anywhere from one to four weeks, depending, because they're gathering money from the backers on your behalf.
1218940	1224800	And then, you know, so my advice, you know, figure out your design, your manufacturing, your production first.
1225180	1230260	Do not ever use funds for your own research and development and figuring out mistakes.
1230260	1233680	Because I don't know how thin your margins are if you're doing a crowdfunding.
1233680	1239040	But if they're thin and then you're using that money to figure out your mistakes, you're going to have a bad time.
1239040	1246500	So and then always be responsive. Reach out to people, you know, have a Twitter presence, whatever, and make sure you fulfill commitments.
1247500	1253820	So these are my lock pick collar stays I designed. These are actually the DEF CON 27 ones that I did.
1253820	1259560	I did some like a limited edition, like run of them and did some laser etching.
1259560	1266740	So when in doubt, you know, lasers. So current projects that I'm working on, I kind of only have one right now.
1266740	1270380	I've had a bit more time because of COVID-19 and things like that.
1270500	1279680	But a little bit of backstory. My wife and I moved into a new house in December and all of the internal doors had like different locks on them.
1279680	1287280	Some of them were like the small flathead screwdrivers, some were like the pushpin and some were even like cheap Kwikset handles.
1287280	1292740	And I was like, why are you putting this inside a house? And my kids would like lock these and close the door.
1292740	1296040	So I got to the point where I was always carrying around a Sparrows Minijim with me.
1296040	1304660	And then sometimes it would be that Kwikset and I was like, OK, I pull out my, you know, my RCS jackknife or whatever and I pick it open because I didn't have the key to it.
1304660	1309140	I eventually replaced the doorknobs and we ordered, you know, the little screwdriver keys for it.
1310320	1319980	But I kind of got thinking like it'd be nice to have like a bypass tool that was like, you know, I can jim, but I can also use it to like Kwik pick or jiggle open things.
1320160	1325060	Also, I didn't want to carry a traveler's hook around in my pocket because that's really sharp and uncomfortable.
1325600	1330000	So. All right. So let's take this process. This is where I'm currently at.
1330140	1333980	I definitely wanted a bypass tool, something that I could latch slip or Lloyd with.
1333980	1341860	I want a small form factor. I wanted something that I could take on an airplane if I needed like there wasn't anything sharp or bladed.
1341860	1346320	It was under seven inches, reusable, durable, versatile, things like that.
1347260	1350560	So I started looking at what was currently available. You know, we have your mini jim.
1350560	1359280	I started thinking about common keys, you know, your CH751s and then auto jigglers, which you can use for more than just cars.
1359340	1366040	Also, the wafer picks that we showed earlier. I started thinking about the TSA007 because that's the most common TSA key.
1366300	1371640	And then like a shank or decoder type thing. And then we go to the design phase.
1371880	1378340	So I'm a pen and paper kind of guy. What's nice about this is you can actually put the lock pick tools directly on the paper and trace it out.
1378340	1384820	It's much easier than free handing it. So I started sketching out the ideas, started thinking about the different kind of tools that I wanted.
1385260	1390200	And then at that point, I switched over to CAD. Now I've done both LibreCAD, which is an open source.
1390440	1395440	You can tell it's open source. Then I've also used Autodesk Fusion 360. It's great.
1395440	1402480	It seems like it's a lot more developed. It is a paid service, but you can get it through like a student one.
1402480	1407120	Or they do have a startup license if you make less than a hundred thousand type thing.
1409040	1417040	So I started designing it and it was really intuitive. I mean, I watched a couple of YouTube videos and some Pluralsight courses on how to use it.
1417040	1426820	It really got me going pretty quick. And so I designed a, you know, I took a mini gem on the one side and then I wanted like a double sided wafer pick.
1426820	1432480	And then I built in a little finger well, because I think it's important that tools are comfortable in the hand, you know, work on ergonomics.
1432900	1441600	And then at that point, you can extrude it out to the width and everything that you want and then start working with the designs and stuff like that.
1441620	1447500	So that's what I did. And then I designed three more. And these are my Mark 1 prototypes.
1447680	1453380	And I put a hole in it because I was thinking, you know, maybe we want a lanyard hole or put this on a key chain or something like that.
1453380	1459060	And so at the top, working our way down, we have our CH751 and we have our double sided wafer pick.
1459140	1469340	Then the next two are auto jigglers that you could use as a double sided auto jiggler or kind of like a dull, kind of a shallower half diamond pick.
1469820	1479000	You can't see it too well, but I did try to add serrations. My next one I need to, my next designs, I actually need to tweak this a little bit.
1479000	1483860	Kind of standardize the size of the mini gym side and things like that.
1485700	1491580	I will say something about serrations. If you do put serrations in, they are nice. Make sure they're dull serrations.
1491580	1497040	And the way I found that works pretty well for that is half circles with lines connecting them. They're really nice.
1497040	1503420	You can fill them, but they don't cut into you. Don't do the sawtooth serrations. So something you should think about.
1504160	1514520	So at this point, I have my Mark 1 prototypes. I did a batch of about a hundred of them. Well, no, I did a batch of like 40 sets or so.
1514720	1521060	I sent them out to a couple people. I still have quite a few, but you can see a few things that I want to make some changes on.
1521060	1527160	There was a little, in the wafer pick, you can see a little half circle that was cut out there. That was just a mistake by the manufacturer.
1527160	1532320	And you can see that the serrations didn't really come through. I didn't have a fine enough laser going.
1532320	1544220	A couple ideas that I scrapped was like the TSA-007. The reason why is this is in 31 thousandths of an inch or 0.787 millimeter steel.
1544260	1550560	And the way the TSA-007 is set up, it's more like a Z-shaped keyway. It just wasn't feasible.
1550560	1556960	However, the CH-751 works great. It works perfect. I'm not going to change anything with that. I really like it.
1556960	1563820	Also, I did decide to get rid of the decoder, because if I want this to be TSA-safe, I can't have a sharp spike on it.
1564680	1570320	So next steps, I'm going to standardize the jim dimensions across all of them. I'm going to fix that weird circle.
1570520	1579000	Change the pick profile on the wafer pick. You'll notice at the point, there's actually two peaks on the top and the bottom. It makes it just a bit too thick.
1579000	1584400	So I'm going to change those dimensions a little bit. And then, you know, deeper, more pronounced serrations.
1587200	1593040	All right. So kind of what I just said here. Keep improving prototypes, because I'm not happy how they are yet.
1593040	1598660	But I do recommend you send them out to trusted friends who will give candid feedback.
1598740	1607360	Don't send it out to people who are only positive, like, oh, this is so great. You're going to make a million dollars off of this. So clever of you.
1607480	1614700	Send out to people who, like, know what they're talking about. Like, I can see the value of this. Here's something I would change. Here's how it feels in my hand.
1614700	1622640	This is really valuable because then you're getting the feedback you want. If you're doing a crowdfunding type thing, you're not spending money on figuring this out.
1622640	1629500	You know, I'm paying this up front. Whatever. Raw materials manufacturing. I've already covered that. Things I like to do.
1629500	1636040	And then once you're happy, is this a point where you want to reach out to lock pick companies and look at some kind of a collaboration?
1636600	1639900	Sparrows, I've reached out to them before. They seem pretty good to work with.
1640520	1647200	You know, I don't have any negative feelings against them. I decided not to go with them, just make it on my own.
1647340	1654160	But I know other people have had success with it and been happy with it. And I, you know, more power to them.
1655120	1660920	Let's see. Yeah, I've already talked about how I hire a metal shop to laser cut them for me.
1660920	1671180	I send them the CAD files and they're really good with CAD and they can, like, find out the most, the best layout to get the most out of my sheet metal and stuff and calculate costs and things like that.
1671360	1676020	And then distribution. I mean, are you going to send this domestic? Are you going to send international?
1676280	1680200	One thing I discovered is I had all these international buyers in my caller states.
1680200	1684200	Like, is this going to be customs friendly? And I didn't consider it and said, you know what?
1684200	1688920	Yep, I could probably make a lot more money, but I'm going to cover customs because I don't want to be a jerk.
1689620	1694480	But that's kind of the point you get to, you know, it's like I want to make something good.
1694480	1697960	I want people to be happy. Yeah, some people are going to think it's dumb.
1697960	1700920	They don't have to buy it. Some people are going to think, hey, this is kind of cool.
1700920	1708460	This is this is clever. I mean, it's something I might throw in my wallet or, you know, I like this kind of hybrid tool.
1708460	1712520	It's really interesting. So that's that's kind of where I'm at.
1713160	1720080	And that is my talk, pretty much. I'm on Discord. I go by Didymus. I'm also on Twitter.
1720080	1724580	If you want to send me a DM, I think they'll be open for a little while, but same handle.
1724580	1728180	And if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them as best I can.
1728180	1735140	But, you know, I'm curious to see what what kind of hybrid PhysTech tools you might have out there, what ideas you might have.
1735920	1740520	And yeah, if you have any questions, feel free to reach out and thanks for taking the time.
1740520	1745320	So with that, I will say thanks and enjoy the rest of the con.