WEBVTT 00:01.960 --> 00:03.000 Okay. 00:03.400 --> 00:07.380 It looks like we are up and going. 00:07.660 --> 00:08.780 Hello, everybody. 00:08.780 --> 00:15.060 I know the title card said that I was going to be giving the closing speech, and that is still true. 00:15.160 --> 00:20.480 But we have one more talk before that, and that is by Ruben Yap from Zcoin. 00:20.520 --> 00:26.700 If you don't know Zcoin, it's a coin that's not Monero, so I don't know why he's at the Monero Village. 00:26.700 --> 00:30.740 He walked in one day, we took him off the street, and we raised him as our own. 00:30.740 --> 00:35.660 So he's going to give a talk about Zcoin and competition to Monero. 00:35.660 --> 00:39.000 So I hope everyone sticks around, because it's going to be some good stuff. 00:39.000 --> 00:40.760 Passing it over to you, Ruben. 00:40.840 --> 00:41.780 Take it away. 00:41.780 --> 00:42.480 Thank you. 00:42.940 --> 00:43.400 All right. 00:43.400 --> 00:44.240 Hello, everyone. 00:44.240 --> 00:45.420 My name is Ruben. 00:45.420 --> 00:49.000 I am the project steward of Zcoin. 00:49.180 --> 00:53.480 And basically what that means is, you know, I'm the caretaker of the project. 00:53.480 --> 00:56.620 So first of all, it's super early for me. 00:56.620 --> 00:57.840 It's 6 a.m. 00:57.840 --> 00:58.600 for me. 00:58.600 --> 01:02.740 And yeah, so if I'm a bit slow, please forgive me. 01:02.980 --> 01:12.560 And today we are going to talk about ditching op-in privacy to compete with Monero. 01:12.560 --> 01:15.740 And to be fair, I was put up to this topic. 01:15.740 --> 01:19.260 I had actually a less controversial topic to talk about. 01:19.260 --> 01:20.400 But here we go. 01:20.400 --> 01:21.340 All right. 01:22.340 --> 01:27.200 So, you know, what is exactly the privacy landscape right now? 01:27.200 --> 01:41.540 And, you know, it's pretty clear that Monero is the king, not just in market cap, but I guess in like overall privacy and the protection that it provides. 01:42.980 --> 01:46.060 And it's a lonely throne, right? 01:46.060 --> 01:52.880 And we're going to take a look at why that is the case and why what we at Zcoin are trying to do. 01:52.880 --> 02:01.020 So, you know, this is a little table that I built. 02:01.400 --> 02:04.040 Some may or may not agree with me. 02:04.040 --> 02:13.240 But as you can see, you know, Monero almost scores really highly in many of the stuff that kind of matters as a privacy coin. 02:13.240 --> 02:20.460 You know, first of all, you have like the theoretical privacy level, which is, you know, maybe how good is your privacy technology? 02:20.460 --> 02:30.960 And although it's kind of long in the tooth, in my personal opinion, RingCT does offer a decent amount of privacy just out of the box. 02:31.000 --> 02:48.020 But of course, because, you know, everything is on by default, you know, with staff addressing and in a very high compliance, there is a very high practical privacy level because you're mixing with, you know, lots and lots of different inputs and outputs. 02:48.020 --> 02:59.260 It has the team, you know, you have the awesome people at Monero Research Labs who are, you know, conducting independent research full time. 02:59.260 --> 03:06.120 It does have recently just added, you know, network layer privacy through Dandelion and it has very high liquidity. 03:06.120 --> 03:11.420 And this is actually also important, I guess, liquidity and also transaction volume, right? 03:11.420 --> 03:17.080 Because in privacy, you know, anonymity likes a crowd. 03:17.420 --> 03:27.840 And obviously, the more people using your platform and the more people trading it, you can transfer value through it and there are more transactions to kind of hide within. 03:27.840 --> 03:32.900 So that's also actually an important metric as well, beyond just the technicals. 03:32.900 --> 03:38.300 So, you know, this is like, you know, everyone talks about Monero and then, well, what about Zcash? 03:38.300 --> 03:42.340 Why do you say that Monero is kind of alone on the throne, right? 03:42.480 --> 03:45.360 And Zcash has really interesting technology. 03:45.360 --> 03:48.460 You know, they have the highest theoretical privacy level. 03:48.460 --> 03:51.880 It's like 2 to the power of 32 or something like that. 03:51.880 --> 03:56.360 You know, they have independent research and really good researchers. 03:56.360 --> 04:07.960 I don't think they have network layer privacy and they have, you know, pretty decent liquidity in terms of exchanges and also an okay number of transactions that's happening on chain. 04:07.960 --> 04:14.880 But the practical privacy level is actually really low because very, very few people use their shared transactions. 04:14.880 --> 04:17.120 And we'll talk a little bit about that. 04:17.860 --> 04:23.280 Zcoin, you know, we use a kind of a different kind of a zero knowledge proofs to Zcash. 04:23.360 --> 04:32.720 I do feel that we offer theoretically a high privacy level, especially as we transition to our new privacy protocol, which we will talk a bit later. 04:32.720 --> 04:38.520 But again, because we use op-in privacy and we'll see how bad this is actually that has panned out. 04:38.520 --> 04:40.960 The practical privacy level is really low. 04:40.960 --> 04:42.840 We do have our own independent research. 04:42.840 --> 04:45.420 We have network layer privacy through Dandelion. 04:45.420 --> 04:49.040 And okay, our liquidity is fair, our transactions are decent. 04:49.040 --> 05:10.600 Of course, there are all these other competitors, especially in like Bain, Green, you know, because whether you agree with me, it's a bit difficult to say whether they have independent research because they don't quite have cryptographers, but they are implementing some unique takes on a certain type of protocols. 05:11.060 --> 05:17.640 But, you know, I would say that, you know, basically the main guys are Monero and Zcash. 05:17.640 --> 05:20.160 Of course, they are like the Z2Z folks. 05:20.160 --> 05:28.860 I think the most famous one would be something like Pirate Chain, which is using ZK-SNARK with like full mandatory privacy. 05:28.860 --> 05:39.960 And although they offer very high theoretical privacy level, their practical privacy level is only probably medium only, just because so few people are using them. 05:39.960 --> 05:47.080 There are so few places to actually use them, exchange them and everything that the crowd is very, very small. 05:47.080 --> 05:50.400 So the theoretical privacy is high, the liquidity is really low. 05:50.400 --> 05:55.860 And of course, with Zcash and all that ZK-SNARK, you have all that issue with trusted setup. 05:56.520 --> 06:17.020 And I think the best way to kind of illustrate, you know, the difference between theoretical privacy versus practical privacy is that, you know, the Zcash on paper has the best privacy technology, just if you just look at the anonymity set, because it's not mandatory. 06:17.020 --> 06:20.460 I don't know what's the exact percentage, but it's super low. 06:20.460 --> 06:33.480 And because of that, timing attacks and people having to be very careful about how they properly use shielded transactions or Z2Z transactions for proper privacy becomes really tough. 06:33.480 --> 06:48.360 And there was actually this fellow, I think just like one month ago, just one month ago, like a couple of weeks ago, he was like saying, ah, you know, Zcoin's Zcash privacy is the best. 06:48.360 --> 06:55.400 And they're saying, you know, he offered a reward of $100 and he said, this is my TX ID. 06:55.400 --> 06:57.340 He gave a TX ID. 06:57.360 --> 07:04.560 And so he did give some additional information and he said, please trace which T address that I came from. 07:04.560 --> 07:10.840 And this guy just from Brian just posted this random T address within a day. 07:10.980 --> 07:14.900 And you know, he asked, how did you do it? 07:14.900 --> 07:16.160 And it was very simple. 07:16.160 --> 07:18.640 All he did wasn't any sort of rocket science. 07:18.640 --> 07:23.460 It's just, there's not some advanced guy like Chainalysis or stuff like that. 07:23.460 --> 07:34.940 This was just some random Twitter dude, just went on the Explorer and was looking for a transaction that was shielding it and just guess. 07:34.940 --> 07:39.640 And that's the problem because so few people are using it. 07:39.640 --> 07:42.620 And again, secondly, using it correctly. 07:42.620 --> 07:54.580 It was very easy to kind of guess that this was the T address that actually made this shielded address payment. 07:54.580 --> 08:10.720 So yeah, this is kind of like a really good illustration of how, you know, he put low usage of the privacy technology and also the way that the setup that makes it hard for newbies to use privacy correctly. 08:11.520 --> 08:23.720 And I do think that, you know, like in my personal view, one of the things that Monero does right is that because it's privacy on by default, it's all, there's only one way to do a transaction. 08:23.780 --> 08:31.740 So like newbies have a lot of that complexity, you know, kind of abstracted out rather than having to go through several steps. 08:31.740 --> 08:34.480 And, you know, this is also a problem with Bitcoin. 08:34.480 --> 08:35.380 How do I use it? 08:35.380 --> 08:44.640 I go through Wasabi, I go through this, I go through that, you know, privacy should be simple so that, you know, everyone can be protected. 08:45.640 --> 08:53.520 So the way, for those of you who don't know what Zcoin is, the way our privacy works is kind of different than let's say Monero. 08:53.520 --> 09:02.480 And I guess the basic idea is that you can destroy coins, and then you can redeem them for brand new ones with no previous transaction history. 09:02.480 --> 09:08.980 So it's kind of like, you know, you have these coins with all this transaction history, and then you destroy them. 09:08.980 --> 09:16.620 And at any time in the future, you kind of present a zero knowledge proof that you didn't burn the coins. 09:16.780 --> 09:21.940 And that allows you to redeem brand new coins with no previous transaction history. 09:21.940 --> 09:28.300 And the beauty of the zero knowledge proof is that you don't have to show the exact kind of coins you burned. 09:28.300 --> 09:34.100 This is what preserves the privacy, rather like the source of the funds. 09:34.300 --> 09:38.860 And now with our Lelantis version 2, you don't even need to redeem them for brand new coins. 09:38.860 --> 09:42.900 You can actually pass the right to redeem to someone else. 09:42.900 --> 09:55.840 Like let's say I don't want to redeem and show that brand new coins, I can give this, like if I burn 10 coins, I can say I pass the right of redemption of 5 coins to someone else, and they can redeem it at their pleasure. 09:55.840 --> 09:59.140 Or they can just pass that right to redeem to someone else again. 09:59.660 --> 10:07.040 And this is, I guess, almost like equivalent to a Z to Z transaction because it hides both amounts and source as well. 10:07.040 --> 10:17.920 And the wonderful thing about our zero knowledge proof technology is that there's no trusted setup and it's using standard cryptographic assumptions. 10:18.320 --> 10:34.540 This kind of setup is, I think, also using quite similar cryptography that is being looked at by Monero Research Labs in Arcturus and Tritech, but it's just that the way that we use it with this burn and redeem mechanism is slightly different. 10:34.540 --> 10:37.020 And there's certain advantages to that. 10:37.920 --> 10:48.600 So, you know, our argument is that this is a better privacy method because, you know, we're not kind of like just... we're not just kind of hiding the crowd. 10:48.600 --> 10:54.760 And the way I always kind of explain it is kind of like farts in a lift or, you know, sands on the beach, right? 10:54.760 --> 11:00.500 Where if I'm the only person in the lift and I fart, everyone knows that it's me. 11:00.640 --> 11:03.020 With Monero, you guys are a bit more sadistic. 11:03.020 --> 11:06.420 You drag 10 other people into the lift with you and you fart. 11:06.420 --> 11:12.960 So that it's not clear who's farted, you know, which among the 11 people farted. 11:13.040 --> 11:22.180 Or with the really sadistic people like MimbaWimba, it's kind of like dragging everyone who wants to fart and we all fart at the same time. 11:22.180 --> 11:24.040 So it's not clear who's farted. 11:24.040 --> 11:27.040 And that's, I guess, similar with CoinJoint as well. 11:27.040 --> 11:33.940 The way we see our technology is that I go into the lift, I let out a fart and I make it disappear. 11:34.660 --> 11:41.660 And then I can choose at any time in the future to make that fart appear. 11:41.800 --> 11:53.220 And we feel that this is a better privacy approach because now your plausible deniability is anyone who actually ever entered that lift rather than the people that you are in the lift together. 11:53.220 --> 11:59.280 And, you know, this kind of privacy mechanism, I feel, holds a lot of promise as well. 12:00.900 --> 12:05.460 So let's talk about, you know, we've been around since 2016. 12:05.920 --> 12:10.820 And we used something called Zerocoin before, which is why we call it Zcoin. 12:11.200 --> 12:17.340 But we actually transitioned to a... Zerocoin did have a trusted setup, but Sigma does not have a trusted setup. 12:17.340 --> 12:21.900 And we transitioned to that at the end of 30th of July 2019. 12:21.900 --> 12:27.320 So it's almost been about a year plus. 12:27.440 --> 12:31.280 And it has been completely opt-in privacy. 12:32.080 --> 12:34.220 So how has this gone? 12:34.220 --> 12:44.200 You know, this was actually kind of an experiment because previously even with Zerocoin, the way to do the privacy was kind of cumbersome. 12:44.200 --> 12:45.840 So not many people were using it. 12:45.840 --> 12:48.440 With Sigma, we really simplified the process. 12:48.440 --> 12:57.260 You just press the number amount that you want to anonymize rather than selecting individual denominations and just go, bam, it's anonymized. 12:57.260 --> 13:04.400 So we actually wanted to see, you know, whether this would encourage better use of the privacy protocol. 13:04.400 --> 13:14.340 But only 500,000 Zcoin has gone through Sigma since the launch of Sigma in 30th of July 2019. 13:14.340 --> 13:23.060 And that's, I don't know, I think 4.6% of the entire circulating Zcoin that has gone through the system. 13:23.060 --> 13:37.640 Now, if you take a look at the figures on the left, so what Mint is like, how many total has Mint and how many total has been redeemed, spent, which is what it is. 13:37.640 --> 13:56.160 And I guess I would say that if you just look at the denominations within themselves, the anonymity set for like the set of 100 is anywhere between 217 to 4,269 per transaction that when you do that spend. 13:56.160 --> 14:03.380 So it's not bad, but you know, actually the potential of this technology is also a lot higher. 14:03.480 --> 14:14.000 And so that means this is with such a low usage of Sigma transactions, you can get this kind of, I guess, anonymity sets. 14:14.000 --> 14:28.800 Obviously, it's still not ideal, you know, but I guess it kind of illustrates the difference between what we call like burn and redeem mechanisms and decoy systems where you're always constantly having to find people to mix with you. 14:28.800 --> 14:34.620 Because like in the Lyft example, you're constantly finding people to drag people into the Lyft with you. 14:34.620 --> 14:48.320 But because we use the usage of fixed denominations, we have to burn and redeem in the fixed denominations, this actual anonymity set may not be as large as people think of it because there are certain patterns. 14:48.320 --> 15:04.380 So if people burn a 0.5, a 10, a 25, you know, and then next thing they redeem a 0.5, a 10, a 25, your anonymity set is not just, it's not like 121 and a 25, it's actually the combination of those things. 15:04.380 --> 15:13.640 So that actual anonymity set can be a lot lower than, you know, so-called just based on the statistics. 15:15.140 --> 15:17.820 So what are we doing to fix this, right? 15:17.820 --> 15:20.820 And this is where Lelantis kind of comes in. 15:20.820 --> 15:35.940 Lelantis is our new privacy protocol set to go live for the first version, probably at the end of the, I guess the beginning of October-ish. 15:35.940 --> 15:44.020 We're going to probably release the binaries around then and then have it live in one month or so or right after that. 15:44.020 --> 15:51.180 Now the beauty of Lelantis is that it can support pretty large anonymity sets. 15:51.180 --> 16:01.260 Of course, probably not in the range of Zcash, which is like 2 to the power of 382, but we're looking at sets of like 64,000, which isn't bad. 16:01.260 --> 16:09.100 And we probably can even bring it like one order of magnitude higher with some small improvements as well. 16:09.100 --> 16:10.500 It has no trusted setup. 16:10.500 --> 16:16.560 It uses a ZKP code, one out of many proofs, which I think is also the basis for Strippage. 16:16.700 --> 16:20.460 And we will be using this finally. 16:20.460 --> 16:23.820 We're going to be using it privacy on by default. 16:23.860 --> 16:33.300 That means all official wallets will be using, like, anonymizing funds by default so that users don't really have to care too much. 16:33.300 --> 16:44.620 But there is still the option to opt out, and we'll probably talk a bit about why we chose that mode to transition into the privacy. 16:44.620 --> 16:58.480 The Cryptolibrary was just completed this audit with Trail of Bits, which was actually funded through crowdfunding using the Zerocoin crowdfunding system, which was definitely a fork of the Monero CCS. 16:58.480 --> 17:02.720 And the cryptographic paper is being audited by Dmitry Kovratovich. 17:02.720 --> 17:13.360 And as you can see, you know, it is, of course, you know, some may argue that the Monero's anonymity set size isn't actually 11 because of the way things combine together. 17:13.360 --> 17:15.740 But let's just take it at face value. 17:15.740 --> 17:21.900 This is kind of, you know, I think this is a good overview of what the technology does. 17:21.900 --> 17:22.780 All right. 17:23.960 --> 17:27.720 Now, OK, we have five more minutes. 17:27.720 --> 17:33.840 So just to kind of understand, like, how are we actually deploying Lelantis privacy, right? 17:33.840 --> 17:42.860 The phase one, as I said, that is happening in October this year gives the ability to burn and redeem without no fixed denominations. 17:42.860 --> 17:43.040 Right. 17:43.040 --> 17:44.960 You can burn any arbitrary amount. 17:44.960 --> 17:50.100 You can redeem any arbitrary amount, even like a partial amount of what you burnt. 17:50.240 --> 17:50.480 Right. 17:50.480 --> 17:53.940 All official wallets will anonymize funds by default. 17:54.200 --> 17:55.480 There's no new address structure. 17:55.480 --> 17:57.420 We still use the same address structure. 17:57.500 --> 18:10.940 But of course, there's still the opt-out to use transparent because right now, I mean, realistically, you know, we are a smaller coin and, you know, exchanges, they're not going to reinvent everything for us. 18:10.940 --> 18:20.800 All the existing integrations that we want, all the certain parts of infrastructure does rely on transparent addresses, transparent funds. 18:20.800 --> 18:27.480 So we cannot straight away opt-out, especially with a new addressing system for Lelantis. 18:27.540 --> 18:36.000 And we also want to make sure that we have our mobile SDK so that, you know, mobile wallets can also do all these Lelantis transactions as well. 18:36.000 --> 18:45.880 We actually do have a privacy on by default mobile wallet maybe coming in the next few weeks for Sigma privacy, not Lelantis. 18:45.880 --> 18:53.420 And because there's still no second address structure, there's the requirement to redeem all the time. 18:53.420 --> 18:56.300 Some timing attacks are still possible in phase one. 18:56.300 --> 18:59.840 Phase two is when it gets really interesting. 18:59.920 --> 19:08.640 And that is coming, I would say, maybe sometime in 2021, maybe the second quarter or first quarter, maybe, right? 19:08.680 --> 19:19.200 And it introduces direct anonymous payments where, as I was saying, I don't have to redeem the coins, I can pass that right to redeem to someone else, even partially. 19:19.260 --> 19:21.060 Amounts and sources are all hidden. 19:21.060 --> 19:28.720 And I do think that the privacy offered is really, really high, especially when you see how we implement anonymity sets. 19:28.720 --> 19:34.280 And we introduced a new Lelantis addressing system. 19:34.460 --> 19:38.360 I guess like if you have Zcash, it's almost like a shielded address system. 19:38.360 --> 19:43.840 And what we're going to do is make that the default for all our official wallets. 19:43.840 --> 19:53.660 Now, once we have this addressing system, I think then it's a good time to actually start talking about mandatory privacy. 19:53.660 --> 19:55.380 That means there's no op-out. 19:56.340 --> 20:04.000 There are still some things that we kind of need to figure out because we are being integrated into DeFi. 20:04.000 --> 20:08.460 I know Monero guys hate the word DeFi because it's been bandied around a lot. 20:08.460 --> 20:20.700 But, you know, we see value in being integrated into stuff like Uniswap to be able to trustlessly do the decentralized exchanges or the use collateral. 20:20.700 --> 20:23.840 We want to make Zcoin, I guess, more useful, right? 20:23.840 --> 20:39.500 And certain other things like proving times, like for an individual users that's making like a transaction, you know, personal transactions, a few transactions a time, the proving times of like, yeah, one second, two seconds isn't so bad. 20:39.960 --> 20:51.540 But if you let's say you're an exchange and you have to send hundreds of transactions, we sometimes we don't know how exchanges would react to that. 20:51.540 --> 20:57.140 So there are certain improvements in the pipeline that can actually reduce proving time by an order of magnitude. 20:57.140 --> 21:02.400 We actually have a paper out for that called Hierarchica, one of many proofs. 21:02.400 --> 21:05.000 But it has to be adapted for Lelantis. 21:05.000 --> 21:17.080 And we're also looking for instancing solutions where, you know, I can use a ZKP to kind of get the entire state of Zcoin. 21:17.080 --> 21:22.180 And also the Lelantis like anonymity sets. 21:22.280 --> 21:30.080 So, you know, to improve usability, to encourage the use of Lelantis or else it'd be just too cumbersome and no one would want to use it. 21:30.080 --> 21:31.480 So this is our current plan. 21:31.480 --> 21:36.840 And hopefully, you know, we can finally move to privacy on by default. 21:36.840 --> 21:48.120 But, you know, there are still some open stuff, but we do want to move to privacy on by default with OpOp definitely for sure at the end of this year. 21:48.120 --> 21:49.540 I mean, October-ish. 21:49.540 --> 21:53.920 And then we slowly start pushing to mandatory privacy. 21:54.020 --> 21:56.600 And we feel that's really going to be important. 21:56.600 --> 22:09.400 Now the last thing I want to talk is about anonymity sets because I will, you know, people are saying like, well, you know, what do you mean by you only have an anonymity set of 64,000, right? 22:09.400 --> 22:23.820 So kind of think about past 64,000, because of the limitations of the technology of Lelantis right now, stuff starts to take increasingly longer and longer. 22:24.760 --> 22:31.280 So that means both proving time and verification time start getting quite a bit more. 22:31.280 --> 22:41.820 So we kind of decided to say to cap that set of 64,000 so it does not grow so that the performance would still be acceptable. 22:41.820 --> 22:55.080 Now, let's assume that with privacy on by default, with transparency, we have a very, very low estimate of 30% of transactions that are anonymized with current transaction volume. 22:55.180 --> 23:02.380 And that will mean to hit that set of 64k would take about, you know, slightly less about like two thirds of a year. 23:02.520 --> 23:05.420 And that's assuming about 800 transactions per day. 23:05.420 --> 23:10.680 Obviously, if the usage of Zcoin picks up, we're going to see this field a lot faster. 23:12.120 --> 23:19.680 And I guess one of the interesting things is that what happens when the set of 64,000 is filled? 23:19.680 --> 23:21.380 Am I going to start from zero again? 23:21.380 --> 23:28.620 That's obviously a really bad thing because that means for that period of time, did I start a new set? 23:28.620 --> 23:32.500 The people using that new set gets very, very little anonymity, right? 23:32.500 --> 23:48.560 So we do something what we call a sliding window approach, which is quite clever, where we actually kind of start new anonymity sets with kind of preceded with at least 16,000 commitments that have came from the previous set. 23:48.560 --> 24:01.540 And because of the nature of zero-knowledge proofs, where even though you prove that you burnt the coins, no one really knows how much of it actually has been redeemed or rather which one has been redeemed. 24:01.540 --> 24:06.380 So you can always take those commitments and place it in a new one. 24:06.380 --> 24:11.980 Okay, from this 16,000 that I'm preceding, how many of them has been used? 24:11.980 --> 24:13.740 There's no idea for that. 24:13.740 --> 24:27.280 So what that means is that once the first set has been seeded, or even the first 16K, the minimum anonymity set for Lelantis never falls below 16,000. 24:27.280 --> 24:30.020 So it's from 16,000 to 64,000. 24:30.020 --> 24:42.180 So we think that's really good and kind of illustrates one of the benefits of doing this burn and redeem method, rather than compared to Monero, which are just building really, really large rings. 24:42.180 --> 24:47.800 I think with Triptych, it's like rings of like 100 or so, if I'm not mistaken. 24:48.470 --> 25:11.540 So yeah, this kind of like ends my brief introduction of kind of illustrating why we think that our moving into privacy owned by default, combined with the Lelantis technology would really give, you know, rather than like kind of like just saying that we're a privacy coin, 25:11.540 --> 25:11.740 right? 25:11.740 --> 25:15.720 Like Zcash, you know, they have all this amazing technology that no one is using. 25:15.720 --> 25:16.700 And you're like, why? 25:16.700 --> 25:21.220 You know, how can you call yourself a privacy coin if no one's using your privacy, right? 25:21.640 --> 25:25.020 And it's not as if Monero's technology is the best. 25:25.100 --> 25:29.640 It isn't, you know, even I don't know if everyone would agree with that. 25:29.640 --> 25:37.200 It's just more about the overall package and because everyone is using the transactions that makes it as an overall package the best. 25:37.200 --> 25:49.920 But if let's say Zcoin moves towards privacy owned by default, and we get significant traction with our privacy protocols, we make it very difficult for users to mess up and to review their privacy. 25:49.920 --> 26:01.940 I do think that, you know, I do feel that Lelantis and together, both practical and theoretical kind of come together and really can pose a challenge to Monero. 26:01.940 --> 26:12.380 And I hope to see that because I do think that this space really needs better privacy protocols because, you know, Mimba Wimba doesn't cut it. 26:12.380 --> 26:21.740 So yeah, I'm not sure how to go about... I'll end this sharing of the screen. 26:21.740 --> 26:24.820 And does anyone have any questions?