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    "text": " Okay, hello everyone and welcome to the Monaro Research Lab office hour with me, your host Justin, and the person you actually want to see, Dr. Strang-Noether. So to start, I would like to have Dr. Strang-Noether introduce himself. Before we get started, I think it would be useful to set expectations for what this session is. It's very casual on purpose. We are here such that we can answer your questions, mostly it'd be Mr. Strang-Noether answering your questions, and yeah, so I will be paying attention to YouTube, I'll be paying attention to Discord just to relay questions over, but otherwise this is really your time to make of it what you would like. So yeah, we're here to answer anything you have. So how about, Strang, can you introduce yourself please? Sure, so I am Dr. Strang-Noether. I'm a cryptographer and mathematician who is a research contributor to the Monaro Research Lab. The Monaro Research Lab is a research and development work group, it's not the only one, but it's a research and development work group that conducts, you know, research and development for the Monaro project. So that ends up being stuff involving protocol research, some of the math, prototyping, coding, all sorts of things, to kind of push the Monaro protocol and privacy preserving digital assets forward in general from a technical perspective. And like Justin said, the purpose of this office hour is to give an opportunity to just kind of very informally give a video forum, in this case, in order to, you know, answer any questions that come up, topics that people want to know more about. So this could be Justin and I sitting here in the quiet for an hour, like often happens in kind of standard university in-person office hours, you know, or it can be, you know, really whatever sort of technical aspects that folks want to talk about. So I guess I'm using whatever, you know, media you, I guess, have access to. Justin, you said you're watching the Discord on YouTube, is that right? Well, yeah, so for any questions that people have, you know, go ahead and shoot them off to us there. We can talk about them. Otherwise, I'll sit here. Perfect. I brought my coffee. You know, I haven't had a lot of coffee with my actual coffee chats recently, but I feel like I've doubled down on the coffee the last few days. Were you the type of person in high school, well, maybe high school depending, but in college that went to office hours, were you the type of person that would usually go or is this something you did not go to that often? I had to go to office hours, you know, when I had questions and later as a TA and even later as an instructor. I don't know. And then I had a new appreciation for the nature of office hours when I was the one, you know, running the office hours. But I did discover that oftentimes it was like this really cool combination of, you know, folks who came because they really wanted to understand something that they didn't, you know, prior to that. But there were also a lot of students who really did know what they were doing and they were just really interested in making sure that they, you know, kind of had as much face-to-face time to kind of go over new problems as they could. So one thing I like is it was like, oh, this is not some kind of sign of weakness to go to office hours. You know, it's like a sign of, I guess, being motivated and dedicated to what you're learning. But there were still many times when I had no one show up to office hours and then it was just reading books for an hour. What are you going to do? Yeah, I guess. Any questions or any topics of any kind? At the moment, there are no questions and no topics of any kind, but of course it's open. I mean, we can also talk a little bit about those, I guess. Yeah, I was thinking one way we could do is sort of troll the answers out of people. We can just start saying like, well, what do you think about this obnoxious thing? Just to get people all riled up about it. But before we do that, how about you tell us, talk about what you've been doing with the Minerva Research Lab the last month or so. So I would say probably like the most interesting thing that people might care about, or hopefully at least they'll care about the effects of it, is going to be CLSAG, which is a linkable ring signature construction that was intended to be a drop-in replacement to the linkable ring construction that the Minerva protocol used to use. It's called MLSAG. I will say that in hindsight, I really regret us not giving it a cooler name. What would have been a cooler name for that? I have no idea. If anyone has any ideas, you should tell us. I mean, we ended up getting a pretty cool CLSAG logo. Basically, the community came together and we had a few ideas that were pitched, one of which we ultimately went with in the blog post, and they're credited at the bottom. But it's not quite as easy to market as something like Halo or Arcturus. So prior to the confidential transaction model, the linkable ring signature scheme was won by some other authors. It was called LSAG, Linkable Spontaneous Anonymous Group Signatures. From that point on, moving into the confidential transaction model, where we replaced unclear amounts, commitments to amounts, and then we moved to one that was developed by Shen Norther and others, more of an in-house kind of thing. That was called MLSAG. It was a multi-layered, linkable, spontaneous anonymous group signatures. The idea there is that you had both information in the signature that dealt with both signing keys, but also certain commitment keys. And by kind of cleverly setting up and arranging how you do that signature, you could both show this kind of signer-ambiguous signature model you're looking for, but also throw in a proof of balance, which is very important, but also completely in a signer-ambiguous way. The downside to the MLSAG signatures, of course, is you basically kind of have two sets of data floating around in the signature itself. You have some sets of data that deals with the signing keys, and a kind of a separate set of parallel data that deals with the commitment keys. So the scaling on that, you know, is not very good. It scales as, you know, the anonymity set per transaction goes up. It scales that way. But at the same time, every time you're adding on, you know, new ring members, you're actually adding on two pieces of data, effectively. One for signing keys and one for commitment keys. And so the kind of new hotness now is CLSAG, which is concise, linkable, spontaneous, anonymous group signatures. So it is what it is. There was a name that was chosen and thought about changing it, but then we're like, ah, you know, we've already named it. Can't really rename it. So people already knew about that. We didn't want to make everything more confusing. But the idea there is to kind of take this information involving this data for signing keys and this data for commitment keys, and it turns out you can combine them together in this weighted fashion that, you know, hash functions to ensure that, you know, someone can't kind of maliciously go through and run a forgery on the signature. And basically do the same thing that MLSAG signatures do. Both show in a signer-ambiguous way that you're signing a message on behalf of one of the unknown keys. I guess one of the set keys, but you don't know which one it is. But also basically signing with this other commitment key that you need to prove balance. So it's more or less a drop-in replacement, but now effectively you only have to have one set of data involved. So one piece of information per ring member and then some additional auxiliary information that's used just to make the algebra work. So the benefits to this are that it's basically a drop-in replacement, so that's great. You know, everything involving key images sticks around. Everything involving the way that these keys are structured gets to stick around. But the benefits, this benefits that you get for it, are that first the signatures are much smaller. So effectively the signatures you get for CLSAG are about half the size as for MLSAG. That's just a signature alone. Transactions include more than just a signature. So they're smaller in that sense, but they're also faster to verify, because it turns out you can do some optimization with the way that these operations take place. Because before you had to do some cryptographic operations on like the linkable side of the data and on the commitment side of the data. And now you can effectively do them at the same time and you can optimize that away a little bit. So the benefits there are that you end up with about 20% faster signature verification. So transactions that spend multiple inputs, which most transactions spend between one and two inputs and generate some other outputs, but for every one of those spent inputs you need a separate signature. And so it turns out that for the most common forms of transactions, like a two input two output transaction for example, you end up seeing overall about a 25% decrease in the transaction size and overall probably about a 10% speed up in the overall transaction verification. So that's pretty good. There's really no downsides to this. Of course we want to make sure that the security model for this is very strong. So the security model basically just says what properties do we want this construction to have? And for our particular purposes, we want there to be these properties involving forgeability and non-slanderability and linkability. And there's kind of this list of them that you want this linkable ring signature construction to have. So what you do is you basically build this kind of hypothetical model of an imaginary attacker. And you kind of give this attacker different powers to do things. So you might give this imaginary attacker like the power to convince honest users to hand over their private keys. Or you might give this imaginary attacker the power to persuade honest users to build arbitrary transactions on the attacker's behalf. And then you show that even if the attacker had these powers, it still can't go and like generally break these properties that we wanted to have without also breaking some computational problem like the discrete logarithm problem that we assume is computationally feasible to do. So you basically say, aha, this hypothetical attacker can't exist, and therefore we're okay. And so we decided to kind of beef up the security model that was used for CLSAG compared to like LSAG and MLSAG. And in doing so, ended up with, I would say, like a pretty good model for how we want it to work. So that's pretty good. We're pretty sure that the same security model would equally apply to MLSAG, but you know, we didn't go back and kind of retroactively do that. It was considered to be pretty straightforward. Do you know of anyone else that is actually using MLSAG in a sort of production like Monero is? Like, is there any other application that's widely used for this? Oh, I mean, besides like projects that, you know, use it for the same purpose, you know, like CodeWorks or, you know, you know, different digital assets that have at least like the same or a similar protocol, presumably use it. But I'm not aware of any other direct applications. So originally LSAG, one of the, in the original paper that originally introduced LSAG, you know, one option that was listed was like voting schemes, for example, you know, where you want to be able to ensure that someone can't vote twice for a particular issue, but also some ambiguity among the set of possible voters. I don't think that that's actually been implemented yet. I mean, secure voting is really hard for a lot of reasons, but it happens to be really good for the purposes that we use it for. And so I just got to finish up too. The Monero community commissioned an external audit of both the paper, but should be very careful to say pre-print. This pre-print is still technically a pre-print. So that means it hasn't undergone any other peer review aside from what I'm going to talk about. But we decided to have the pre-print externally audited, as well as the implementation for the upcoming October network upgrade audited. So that was done. There were two auditors who were commissioned to do that, and that was in kind of in consultation with the Open Source Technology Improvement Fund, which is a non-profit that does support for these kind of things and supported by Monero community donations. And the auditors had a lot of really good suggestions for how to improve the overall CLSAG security model and pre-print. So ended up changing a few of the proofs around and generally just improving how the security model and proofs were structured and run. And those didn't actually require any other changes to the scheme itself. So the construction itself, and therefore the code, didn't change as a result of that. But we're now much more confident in the way that the security model was arranged. Some of the definitions, the cryptographic hardness assumptions, and things like that. So that's great. Those changes have been made and that's now up on the IACR ePrint archive. And then the implementation surprisingly didn't require any real changes for security, which I feel like usually you get some in there. There were a few kind of informational ideas for how to simplify the code, but we considered that changing those, they would have been fairly extensive in how we handle certain key structures and such. And it was thought that it was probably more likely to introduce risk if we made kind of these big sweeping, more informational changes than if we were to just leave it. So yeah, so the report's available. There's a blog post up on getmonero.org about it. You can read the full report, take a look at the pre-print, look at the code if that's your thing. Awesome. Yeah, so that's scheduled to be deployed in the October network upgrade. So all you need to do is just keep your software updated. If you use a hardware wallet like a Trezor or Ledger, that's in process as well, getting their firmware and apps updated as well to make sure that that's good to go kind of day-in-day-out when we're ready to go to it. So if you use those, make sure you keep your firmware updated as well and you'll be good to go. Very cool. We had a question come in from Andres. He asked if there's any plans to, in the future, move past ring signatures to something that is not just hidden between other decoys, but has additional protections beyond just a decoy level protection. So I guess there's quite a few things that I know are involved in this question. One is we have the current decoy selection, which per transaction has a relatively small number of decoys per selection, which provides reasonable mass surveillance protection, but less so good targeted surveillance if someone knows information about particular transactions. So I guess given the current situation, what is the approximate timeline forward? Not necessarily the timeline, but the set of potential improvements forward for whether or not ring signatures are sort of the right approach for the future, and how you've approached dealing with the core problem of the relatively small per transaction decoy levels. Yeah, so really the question seems to be kind of about per transaction anonymity sets. I increasingly dislike the idea of using the term ring signature to purely mean a limited anonymity set, just because while it has been the case so far that our ring signature construction does have a limited anonymity set, I don't think it's necessarily the correct term to use. So it's possible to build transaction protocols with limited anonymity sets or full anonymity sets, and you could probably do all sorts of other things. I mean, we know that there's transaction protocols that have no anonymity sets, but those are typically not the ones we're interested in. So what we do right now is we do in fact use a linkable ring signature as kind of a building block in a limited anonymity set transaction protocol for the Monero protocol. That's not the only way to do it though. So it is possible to build limited anonymity set transaction protocols that use, for example, specialized zero-knowledge proving systems. So I really don't like the whole idea of zero-knowledge meaning full anonymity and ring signature meaning not, because that tends to be certain implementations now, but it is not generally true. I mean, those things have much more technical meanings involving proof and signature constructions, but using them the way that we do today. So it's possible to kind of migrate over to a still limited anonymity set construction, but one that permits much larger anonymity sets for reasonable transaction sizes and times, but in a way that ideally would help against certain other forms of analysis or attack. Because again, right now, the way that the transaction protocol signatures scale is that they scale linearly with the size of the anonymity set. So you're really kind of stuck there. And there's been some proposals for ways to use different kinds of specialized zero-knowledge proving systems. Some examples of that are OmniRing is one of them, Atlantis is another one, RingCT3, Tryptic, Torus. There's probably other ones that I'm just not thinking of right now. But all of these essentially allow a transaction proof along with possibly some other auxiliary proofs that scales much better in terms of size and scales a little bit better in terms of time. So verification time is unfortunately kind of the sticking point for this. So if you want a trust-free, like a non-centralized, you know, trusted setup style proving system and transaction protocol, you can make those proofs very small. Like we know how to do that already. They're not as small, for example, as like the proofs, not the transactions, the proofs in say Zcash, but they're still quite small for the size of the limited anonymity set you can get. But verification time is always a sticking point. So with those particular kinds of protocols and proofs, you do need still like a almost linear verification time. That'd be the sticking point. So that's kind of the limitation that exists. There are options. They've all got some trade-offs in terms of, you know, what you can do with things like tracing and how the construction works. Some of them involve changes to multi-signature operations. There's changes to the way that linking tags work, which is kind of require almost sort of like a pool migration that can still be done safely. And so which one of these, if any, should be the one going forward is kind of up in the air right now. A lot of it depends on what trade-offs people are willing to accept and also what trade-offs people are willing to accept in terms of mainly like transaction verification times. Obviously, we'd like verification to be as low as possible because that means faster operations. But that has to be balanced against what kinds of analysis and attacks you want to be able to protect against. So ideally, what we'd love to do is move to something that isn't that full anonymity set. Kind of the classic example of that right now is something like the Zcash protocols, where different anonymity sets that are involved there are basically enforced using proofs that do things involving Merkle tree proofs. And what that effectively does is effectively gives you a full anonymity set within that pool, absent external information. That would be ideal. But right now, all the proposals that are kind of on the table for doing that suffer a lot in terms of either centralized trust or in terms of, say, proof size or time. Right now, you can't really have everything if you don't want to have centralized trust. And of course, you know, there's also other issues with that. You know, for example, in many of the protocols, in many of the pro... hang on here, there's someone else drawing the room here. Yeah, I think it's probably one of the next speakers, I assume. But um, yeah, anyway, right now, like, that's kind of the limitation. So under the assumption that, you know, the project and its community are unlikely to move to something that would require centralized trust, you know, right now, there has to be a limitation of limited sets. And so there's still questions about, you know, how do you end up choosing those anonymity sets? There are definitely ways you can do it that I think provide improvements over the way we do it now. As you get bigger anonymity sets, you can do kind of, you can do certain kinds of binning with the outputs in those anonymity sets. And that can mitigate certain kinds of heuristics involving common ownership. And, you know, the source of where those outputs came in terms of transactions earlier on the chain, as well as timing analysis. So there's a lot of interesting stuff you can play with. But I don't think there's a really good understanding right now of what exactly those precise trade-offs people are willing to make are. Yeah, in my experience, you know, we have, we have code that can do this now. But I think it's a matter of kind of the community and researchers and developers kind of getting into agreement on what those trade-offs should be. So, and again, hopefully, you know, eventually we get to something that is efficient and trust-free, which would kind of check all the boxes for everyone. And from there, you could, you know, very likely build a protocol that uses such a system and does, in fact, give you effectively, you know, full anonymity, which presumably would be enforced. In my experience, when people talk about full anonymity or limited anonymity, it's, it's sort of in an academic only way. And then it's applied to like, you know, it's typically the way things are currently, right? So limited anonymity looks like a Monero's case, right? And that, in many cases, people think that that just can't even really change. They don't really think about these limited is just, you know, anything less than the full pool. And that could be a, you know, a larger number than the entire size of the pool of enough different network, theoretically. And then people are like, yeah, it also depends on what exactly your threat model is, right? You know, are you concerned about knowing various after, you know, making a bunch of controlled purchases, and then examining the possible transaction tree between you and like, you know, I don't know, an exchange with whom this person or entity is colluding. So, you know, given that, you know, that it's very difficult to get, I would say, practical anonymity, you know, in that particular circumstance. And there's plenty of other circumstances that you can dream up, where under certain threat models, limited anonymity just, you know, won't work for you. So it's one of those, like, it's one of those infuriating, it depends kind of ends, where, you know, it's like limited anonymity right now is a trade-off. It is like an absolute trade-off. And we all look forward to the day when we can do something that's trust-free. And, you know, frankly, like if your particular threat model is going to require, you know, a more full anonymity scenario, you know, then, you know, you might have to consider whether or not going to like a trusted setup sort of scenario is something that you need to do. That may come with its other trade-offs, you know, based on things like ecosystem availability, and, you know, a host of other questions. But it's absolutely a trade-off, you know, and I think it's important to acknowledge that, you know, we have things like the Breaking Monero Series where, you know, we kind of try to tease out some of the particular scenarios under which limited anonymity can be a problem, and those for which it might not be as much of a problem. But it's, I feel like, no, it's not fun to like sit down and try to enumerate and think about the specifics of a risk model, but, you know, it's something that unfortunately right now we kind of have to do. We haven't had a Breaking Monero Series in a while, so I guess, given that we haven't, what episode ideas would you like to see there be episodes for? Oh man, I think it'd be interesting to do one that talks about, I guess, some more specifics on things like churn and self-send operations. So I would say things like that, something involving things like output merging would be very, very interesting, you know, where outputs from different transactions end up being pulled into different anonymity sets into the same later transaction. I'm looking at ways to possibly mitigate that, you know, larger anonymity sets with good output selection can mitigate that example. The churn example is a bit tougher because you could look at things like, you know, possible chain history sizes and distributions and look at, you know, what happens with that. I think it's, yeah, there's a lot of interesting things to talk about, but I think it's important to do them in a way that doesn't end up kind of just rapidly devolving into, you know, confusing graphs and, you know, irritating math. But at the very least, I think I'm really happy at least to see that there's a lot of interesting research into this area. You know, a lot of folks want general zero-knowledge proving systems that are trust-free and efficient. And, you know, that would, I think, be like the ideal, you know, checking of all the boxes. And it's interesting to see what different projects do, right? You know, I mean, things like Zcash and related projects get, you know, efficient proofs that are very fast to verify, and you can do things like effective with full anonymity set transaction protocols, in theory, ideally. Zcash kind of has their whole optionality part to it, but are willing to sacrifice trust to a degree to like multi-party computation, you know. And there's always kind of the question of, like, for your personal use case and how you tend to view multi-party computation, you know, do you think that a multi-party computation setup kind of diffuses the trust out enough to where you're okay with that, or are you not okay with that? You know, because in the theory that does provide like a guaranteed, you know, this is how the soundness of this operation could fail scenario, if that multi-party computation were, you know, misused, for example. So, so many questions in this space, and so many trade-offs. I feel like a lot of cryptography is basically just like the precise study of mathematical trade-offs. But, you know, no, I don't really have a good timeline for when, you know, we might be able to move to something that is, you know, what you consider full anonymity. But there are options for increasing the anonymity set, which lets you do a lot of other cool things, hopefully mitigate some analytical heuristics. Wouldn't solve everything, but I think you'd get improvement. So that's on the tip for October, right? Kidding. Not for October. So, I mean, there's other interesting things, you know, on the horizon too. Ideas for making range proofs a little bit more efficient have come up. There was a preprint that came out on improvement to bullet proofs called Bullet Proofs Plus. The plus actually means taking away a few proof elements, but Bullet Proofs Minus doesn't sound as good. So, I don't know. There was a proposal to do an implementation of that. It's really new. It's kind of a, it's an extension of the way that the Bullet Proofs inner product protocol works in this cool, does this cool weighting operation with it. And it would let us, you know, take a few dozen bytes off of transactions. In theory, they'd be like very, very marginally faster to verify, but, you know, in practice, it would pretty much be a wash, I think, in the grand scheme of things. So really, the question about whether or not it is worth moving to that is worth the effort. And the possible risk of something that's a bit newer has yet to be determined entirely. Were there any other questions that came up besides the one that got us into a very long discussion about protocols? Yeah, there's one. It's still a protocol-related question, so it is going to be a follow-up, though. It says, so the ideal solution for Monero would be zk-SNARKs-like thing that doesn't require a trusted setup? And I believe you basically said yes, but also needs to be efficient. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, and specifically saying, like, zk-SNARKs specifically, you know, it's... there are different ways to... there are different building blocks you can use to construct protocols, and I think it's important to consider it at a protocol level. So, for example, like, you could basically build something akin to, you know, like the zcache sapling protocol, for example, but without using zk-SNARK construction. You could do that with bulletproofs, for example. I don't think it's actually been done, but I know that there were some estimates made to say, okay, you know, bulletproofs is a zero-knowledge prudent system. The scaling is, you know, in terms of verification, is not as good. Just absolutely not. But what it lets you do is it lets you prove things about circuits in a trust-free way. So that is trust-free. And so, in theory, you could take, you know, the circuit that's using zcache sapling and some of the other constructions, and you could build that in bulletproofs. And you get rid of trust. And the size would still be pretty good. The estimates and the size, like, it'd be competitive. Not quite as good, but still pretty competitive. But the verification would be, no, it wouldn't work. Estimates I saw are, like, still on the order of a second, which you're like, well, a second, that's pretty fast. It's like, yeah, but then you got to do that, like, a million times. So you can, like, amortize that down with batching and stuff, but, you know, it seemed like it was not quite doable at this point. So I would say something that would let you do, like, the whole Merkle proof kind of thing that, you know, effectively lets you do a full anonymity set-based protocol would be ideal if, you know, we could make it mandatory, which other projects have shown you can do that to ensure optimal privacy. But also, I think, ideally is making it trust-free or, you know, at least infusing the trust and the soundness out to the point where everyone is satisfied with it. And I think it's the general view of, you know, a lot of folks who support the idea of Monero to just reduce that trust down to nothing. You know, whereas for other projects, they've decided that they're okay with, you know, kind of delegating that soundness risk off to a large enough, you know, set of participants in a multi-party computation that they are safe, you know, secure enough that they are, I guess, okay with the security of. I don't really know a great way to say that. But that is risky. You know, I mean, like the Sprout multi-party computation that started Zcash, for example, did have a soundness problem. And there was a kind of a whole deal where they had to end up taking down the proof transcripts and hoping that no one was able to figure out and abuse that. So like there's a real non-trivial risk involved, even to something like such a multi-party computation. So that's not without risk either. And it makes the trust situation a little bit more tricky. So I guess I am personally of the opinion that, you know, I like the idea of, I guess, kind of minimizing the possible soundness problems. You know, a soundness problem for something that involves like a trusted setup is the trusted setup and a multi-party computation. You know, for something that, for anything that uses, for example, Peterson commitments, which Monero does, other projects do too, Zcash does, you know, minimal level-based assets do. You know, in theory, if you could break Peterson commitments, that's a problem with, you know, something akin to soundness as well. So it's definitely kind of like this different like threat profile and ideally we want to minimize that. Got it. Something that was discussed quite a few years ago, but I don't think has really come up super recently is the idea of second layer networks on Monero. Like, what if you wanted to put the Lightning network on Monero? What if you wanted to put this, that, or the other on Monero? What if you wanted to put a, you know, a like zk-snark-mixer on Monero, like as an optional thing? Like, so I guess what sort of building blocks need to happen to allow greater compatibility, knowing that right after this we also have a talk about atomic swaps for Monero too? Yeah, yeah, which is a really cool new thing that's still in progress. But yeah, so there's some other researchers who were looking at the possibility what would it take to do, say, you know, atomic swaps between something like Monero and, you know, something like Bitcoin, for example, where in Bitcoin there's a lot of stuff you can do because Bitcoin has both scripting capability, but also, you know, some different kind of setups in how its protocol works and in how it runs things like signatures and the like. And that gets really tricky because Monero does not have inherent scripting capability. Adding inherent scripting capability would be pretty awful for fungibility, so I tend to view that as probably a non-starter on the Monero side. So given that, the question is, well, okay, so what could you do for something like atomic swaps? And one idea that maybe talked about in the next talk, so I won't try to give too much away, involved a particular zero-knowledge proof that was kind of unspecified at the time in the write-up. In theory, we could have done it with something like bullet proofs, but it would have involved hash functions, and that kind of gets messy to do in, you know, in circuits. So that was not ideal. But then, you know, they came up with another idea that uses this clever cross-group proof, where you basically prove that across two different groups, which are, you know, otherwise basically algebraically incompatible, and you can show a quality of like an unknown discrete log. And it turns out if you can do this, you know, you can very cleverly kind of build it into this protocol involving some Monero transactions and some Bitcoin-style transactions in a way that could let you do atomic swaps. It's pretty darn interesting. You know, there's still some kind of open, ongoing questions about, you know, how you need to those transactions, just to make sure that, you know, if one or more of the parties that are involved in this doesn't follow the protocol, you know, what are the risks to funds, if anything? What's the worst case scenario that could occur? And even then saying, well, okay, suppose that the protocol does work exactly as you'd expect, and the swap does happen, you know, what information, if any, does that leak across, you know, one or more of those chains? So, I mean, for example, if you use a centralized service to do swaps right now, like that can obviously have some risk, because that entity knows presumably where assets came from and where they're sending them to. So, you know, that kind of is a central storage kind of risk. But also you can do different kinds of timing analysis and other amount analysis across different chains to try to determine, you know, what's going on and what funds are moving where. And if that's a risk for you, then you don't really want that. So I think the question of what, if anything, about that kind of analysis would transfer from the current setup, which is like, you know, use a centralized service to do my exchanges versus saying, well, I'll just do it atomically without a central service, like what kind of analysis could still happen? It's not nothing, because metadata always exists. But I think the question of to what extent does it happen and, you know, is that something that you want to do, I think are still open, but very interesting nonetheless. There were some other ideas for stuff like payment channel networks, even within Monero. My DLSag was another signature construction that some other researchers came up with. And we looked at it, and unfortunately had like this tracing problem that would have required this whole self-spend thing. And it was, it kind of got messy, and there wasn't really a great solution for it, unfortunately. So that kind of ended up being dead in the water for that purpose, at least, which was really unfortunate, because DLSag would have opened the door to some interesting stuff. Got it, got it. I know this isn't the DLSag names. Yeah, let's go through every letter. Something involving a DLSag construction, just for even more confusion. So I know this isn't your work directly, but I know Isthmus recently opened a community crowdfunding system proposal to look into potential limitations in Monero related to quantum computing. He was going to look at the initial scope of what basically challenges Monero needed to address going forward. Can you speak a little bit about what this general work is doing, and then also speak about Monero and quantum computing generally? Yeah, so this is work that's ongoing. I believe we're going to work on it for three months. We're about done with the first month, I think, of that. So again, I'm like not directly working on this, so I don't want to try to speak for them or anything. But their idea was, okay, under the assumption that someday quantum computers would exist, and there's definitely debate on to what extent people think that this would be a problem in the future. If so, how far into the future? And if all of that, what actions would we want to take now in the protocol to try to mitigate the possible future effects of quantum computers? They want to look at different parts of protocol, of range groups, and ring signatures, and the one-time addressing construction, and all of this stuff. To what extent would different parts of the chain be considered at risk? The way the Monero keys work, there's a private key and public key, and they're related by this algebraic group operation. And it's pretty well understood that the one-way map right now, from private key to public key, where we assume that it's computationally feasible to determine the signing key just if you see a key on the chain, we assume that that's very difficult right now and it's a one-way operation. It's pretty well understood that given a sufficiently advanced quantum computer, that map would be reversible efficiently. So at that point, spend anyone's funds, which I know that's a problem right now. But to some extent, it's not necessarily just a problem for Monero. This is kind of a broadly applicable problem. The entire internet runs on these one-way maps right now, to a large extent. So it's kind of one of those, well, your house is on fire, but the rest of the world's on fire too. Doesn't make your fire any less bad, but it does mean that there would be a lot of problems to worry about. But even beyond that, looking at things like, what would that allow you to do to ring signatures? So as one example, since the key images or linking tags work within the Monero protocol, it would allow you to look at different outputs that are part of a ring and determine which of them is the signer. Because of the way that the keys work right now, they involve private keys and you can basically do a guess-and-check testing operation. So again, under the assumption of a hypothetical quantum computer, and this is impossible today as far as we know, you could figure that out. There's some other questions right now involving things like, what could you determine about stealth or one-time addressing operations? And that's still, I think, a little bit ambiguous right now. One question that I have that I know is not unique to Monero is saying, well, okay, suppose that I will have a transaction here. Maybe I can't just use that transaction to, for example, figure out what the wallet address of the recipient was. Because remember, in Monero, wallet addresses never appear directly on-chain. They're used to derive these one-time addresses. So right now, I mean, without external information, you can't just use on-chain information to link those one-time addresses back to the wallet addresses. So the question might be, even with the quantum computer, could you take a transaction and determine its recipient wallet address, just kind of with no external information? Or if you, for example, had a candidate list of possible recipients that you think it might be because, you know, maybe you have a hunch or some other external information, are there ways that you could go and basically check those to determine which it would be? And again, the address space in Monero is, like, the possible wallet address space in Monero is, you know, unfathomably huge. And, you know, a quantum computer doesn't just mean, like, can do everything fast automatically. There's particular algorithms that we know that can be used against things like the discrete log problem and stuff. So, you know, even if you had a hypothetical quantum computer, you know, saying, well, couldn't it just go through, you know, all possible addresses and see which it is and figure out, you know, what recipient is linked to what transaction? You know, that's likely not going to be directly possible. But the question of, you know, what could such a computer do if it had, like, a small known list of possible addresses? So questions like that, I think, are still kind of up in the air and are part of the subject of the research that they're working on. And I do know that they're also looking at kind of what current directions my protocol development take that could more efficiently, I guess, work on trying to, like, mitigate the effects of a future quantum computer. I guess one problem with a lot of algorithms and constructions that are conjectured to be post-quantum secure is efficiency. They often tend to be much more inefficient than, I guess, would be reasonable to have on-chain. You know, right now, if, like, post-quantum signatures, for example, can get pretty large. And there have been some ideas for how to do some constructions, like linkable ring signatures, even. But they're very large. And even if you were to integrate them into the protocol, you know, we still deal with today's computers that, you know, still have to store things and do a lot of processing. And if it gets to be too large of a transaction that's too slow, no one's going to use it. So, you know, ideally, we'd like to migrate the protocol immediately to something that's conjectured to be post-quantum secure. But there's a lot of parts of the protocol that it's really uncertain if there's anything at this point that's efficient enough. I mean, research in this area is always ongoing. So, obviously, what's the state-of-the-art today is almost certainly not going to be even close to what the state-of-the-art is, you know, in 10 years, 20 years, you know, further down the line, where maybe we have a better understanding of the likelihood of seeing a practical quantum computer. So I think one thing that they're trying to do, and, you know, I don't, again, I don't want to speak for them, but just my understanding of the work that they're doing is to, you know, look at what are at least some directions in research that might give us an indication about what could be efficient down the road for protocol improvements. I mean, I guess the general thing is, like, to some extent, like, in the age of, you know, post-quantum computers, like, a lot of the internet's kind of screwed in terms of security. So, I mean, like, Monero would be, you know, at least to some degree not immune to this. The extent of which different parts of the, I guess, previous chain's history could be known, I think the exact nature of that is what they're trying to determine now. It's really interesting work. Whether or not you think that it's going to be applicable in, you know, your lifetime or the lifetime of people you care about, I think that's also very much kind of a contentious issue right now. I don't think that there's really universal agreement on, you know, when, if ever, folks might end up seeing a practical quantum computer that would affect projects that they use. And, I mean, I'm not even close to an expert enough in that area to be able to even hypothesize. Yeah, I got it. So, switching gears, what research have you seen outside of what you've specifically done for Monero, I would say, that has been, not necessarily useful, but just really interesting and really surprising? I would say, I think, just, like, the extensive work that's been done on general zero-knowledge-proven systems, I think, is really cool. So, I mean, right now we use very specific zero-knowledge-proven systems in different projects for different purposes. I mean, Bulletproof, for example, is a zero-knowledge-proven system that does, like, one particular thing involving Peterson commitments really well. However, that's just one application. There's kind of a variant form of Bulletproofs that you can use to take different algebraic statements, kind of mess them into this particular circuit format, and then build a proof over the circuit arrangement in order to prove that you know, I guess, like, a witness that ends up satisfying the circuit without revealing what that witness is. And, like, that's kind of the general form of, like, a general zero-knowledge-proven system. So, if you have a protocol that you really want to implement, if you can put it into this form and do this kind of representation, then there's all these different tools that you can use right now to prove things about statements relating to this language that you built. So, Bulletproofs can do that. The different proving systems that are used, you know, in stuff like Zcash protocols can do that. There's a lot of stuff involving, like, zkstarts. And, you know, there's a whole host of really interesting research on how to do this and what the different trade-offs are. And, like I said before, like, kind of the, I would say the holy grail for this is trust-free, small, and efficient to generate and verify proofs. And, ideally, also stuff involving things like batching that lets you kind of amortize the cost of verification over multiple proof verifications. Like, just the fact that there's so much fascinating work going on relating to this is really interesting. And, unfortunately, none of it that I've seen, I think, kind of applies directly to the Monero protocol based on what folks want from it right now. You know, right now, the whole trust thing seems to be a pretty big sticking point. You know, like I said, you know, for users who decide that, you know, they need a protocol that does more than what Monero can offer, like, you probably, at this point, are going to have to sacrifice that whole, you know, where is the trust lie question. But, at the same time, the fact that the research is ongoing and has undergone so much improvement over a pretty short period of time, I think, speaks really highly to where that area of research is going to go in the future. So, I mean, I think it would be great to be able to move to a general, idealized, future zero-knowledge proving system that lets us build really cool protocols that give us everything we want. It's not today. Hopefully, it's not too far off. There has been a lot of work in that area. It's been shocking. Oh, it's insane. Yeah, and to be clear, like, I'm really glad that other projects are doing research in that and, you know, putting that kind of stuff into practice. Like, as with all projects, including Monero, like, I think it's important to talk about limitations and trade-offs. Like, if you've tried to do things like this, you're breaking Monero. But it's still good that, you know, those different kinds of applications are also furthering more research. Sorry, I'm also helping some other later speakers come through. Okay, so you have another five minutes. There aren't any other questions that have come in, sadly. Just the two from Andres. So, thank you, Andres, for answering those questions. We appreciate them. Um, no one else came to the office hours. They're true office hours. No, that's okay. No, I mean, it's good to kind of, I guess, recap, like, how stuff has gone and hypothesize as to where it might go. I mean, research is interesting. You know, you never know what's going to come up, what's going to work, what's not going to work. I think the upgrade in October is going to be exciting, because, you know, Bulletproof was, I think, a cool example of something where transactions got smaller and faster, and there were really no big trade-offs that folks had to consider. And I think CLSAG is another example, where, you know, the transactions get a little smaller, they go faster, and not to the extent that Bulletproof's did. And there's not really any security trade-offs. You know, if anything, working with CLSAG helped to kind of improve the way that we understand linkable ring signature security models. So, if anything, like, I feel like there's more confidence now about the security of the setup that we're going to have. So, if anything, it's not really a trade-off. It's just, you know, kind of an increasing stack of benefits. You're saying that it would be weird a little bit with whatever comes next. Because with RingCT, for example, it was an absolutely necessary change to get to hide the amounts of transactions, and all the other benefits came with them. And I think the issues with denominated Monero were not, they still continue to not be well-documented in, I think, like, a very clear way. We know they're bad, but also, I don't think we've had many research papers yet showing how bad they were. Oh, I mean, the early Monero chain is, you know, a fantastic source of material for analysis. You know, I mean, it's well understood that the effects of, you know, a lot of optionality and protocol has always been problematic. You know, a huge number of early transactions, were effectively, I would say, denominized in the sense of, like, Ring-based signer ambiguity. You know, not, again, not based on wallet addresses or anything. But, and I think that that's kind of still influences work that goes on today. Like, there's still parts of the protocol that have some optionality in them. And, you know, it's, you know, you can argue that it's good to have some flexibility in the protocol to allow for alternative use cases that you might not anticipate. But at the same time, like a lot of the work that especially folks like Isthmus and his group have done has shown that the optionality, you know, can lead to fingerprinting if you're not using standard software or using a service that does something in a strange way. And I think there, I think that a lot of folks are coming around to a better appreciation of the fact that limiting the protocol to, you know, improve uniformity and decrease fingerprinting is very much like a one-sided, increasingly lopsided argument toward, you know, limiting the protocol. And there's still, like, there's still things to do in terms of that. And I think the more that we understand about some of the early protocol decisions and how that optionality was bad, I think the more that that can influence better decisions going forward. You know, like the protocol always have like the old chain to deal with. And I think the best to do, the best thing we can do is try to make good decisions going forward to, you know, improve uniformity that can decrease risk and improve safety. Understood. Andreas asked the last question here. Are there any projects working on voting based in Monero? I know, like, that one Italian government wrote up that one thing about how they maybe were... Yeah, that was, that was a political party, right? Yeah, it was. Yeah, I don't know if that ever actually got implemented. I don't think it did either. Voting is, I mean, I'm by no means an expert on voting, but everything that I know, and I mean, folks who do different villages at DEF CON involving voting probably know way more than I do that electronic voting is tricky. And if you think you found out all the ways it could go wrong, it will always surprise you. So, I don't know. I mean, I thought it was cool to see in the original LSAG paper an application to voting just kind of as a, like, a fun academic thought experiment. And who knows? You know, it's presumably something involving, you know, good signer-ambiguous proofs going forward, you know, might be beneficial. Who knows? For voting. But, you know, I don't think that, like, LSAG or CLSAG would be the thing to use. I mean, there's enough efficiency problems that, you know, trying to scale that out to the... because, again, like, the whole idea was that you basically have, like, all the different possible voting entities as, like, part of a ring or the entirety of the ring. Like, I don't... that isn't going to scale reasonably well. And, you know, the trust model is so much different for voting that, you know, you could probably get away with something that ends up trading certain kinds of trust for... yeah, I don't know, maybe it's trading that kind of trust for better efficiency. It's... I haven't thought about this in years enough to be able to speak well to it. So, just keep rambling. Yeah, understood. Okay, well, that's the time that we have. Thank you so much, Sereng Noether. If people want to follow Monero Research Lab, there's always the monero-research-lab channel. Sereng's always there, of course, 24-7 manning this. Yeah, there's definitely the IRC channel. If folks don't want to be on IRC, you know, posting questions in rmonero, there's a lot of folks there who are good at research and development who can answer. On the monero-projects meta repo, on the issues there, you can see when all the meetings are and logs from those meetings are always posted as well after the fact. So, folks want to see, like, what people have been talking about. Yeah, and everyone's welcome into the meetings if they happen to have anything that they think is interesting or useful research the group might like to see. So, yeah, a lot of great contributors, not just me by any means. A lot of really great researchers and folks who are interested in protocol improvements and, you know, improving privacy in the digital asset space. So, thanks to all the other contributors. Well, thank you so much, Sereng Noether, for joining us again."
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