[00:00.860 --> 00:05.840] Hi everyone, my name is Chloe Mastaggi and I'm so excited to talk about burnout with you. [00:05.980 --> 00:11.780] So welcome, welcome to Recon Village and let's dive into my talk. So hold on for one second while [00:11.780 --> 00:21.620] I pull up my slides. All right, I hope you all can see it. I'm just gonna guess that you can. [00:21.620 --> 00:26.740] So welcome to the burnout talk. I'm looking forward to sharing this. I know that right [00:26.740 --> 00:32.180] now we're dealing with a lot of issues when it comes to COVID-19. We're dealing with a [00:32.180 --> 00:38.980] massive pandemic and then also on top of that many of us may have been burned out right before [00:38.980 --> 00:45.760] the pandemic or now it's making it worse. Or maybe you're experiencing burnout for the first time [00:45.760 --> 00:52.580] ever now because let's be real, there's no... we're stuck inside and we don't know what's [00:52.580 --> 00:59.560] gonna happen next. Humans, we like to have this feeling as if we have control. For example, [00:59.560 --> 01:04.980] we like to know that we have this ability to predict what to expect the next day or be able [01:04.980 --> 01:11.580] to plan out a trip in a couple of months or weeks. Even though, let's be real, we never really can [01:11.580 --> 01:16.760] predict everything every single day but we have this feeling that we have some sort of control [01:16.760 --> 01:22.040] of our life. At this time, it's very hard to have control of your life because with everything [01:22.040 --> 01:28.220] happening all at once, you're stuck inside and all the things that you used to do to reduce your [01:28.220 --> 01:36.500] stress or to see people be around others is now taken away. And this leaves you in a situation [01:36.500 --> 01:42.160] where your work and your personal life is now off balance. And when our personal life and work life [01:42.160 --> 01:47.520] is off balance, that's when we start facing burnout. So I'm excited to share this talk with [01:47.520 --> 01:53.940] you and please note I'm there to answer any questions that you may have. So let's first [01:53.940 --> 01:59.100] dive into, in case you don't know who I am, my name is Chloe Masayi. I'm the VP of Strategy over [01:59.100 --> 02:03.960] at Point3 Security and I'm not that an ethical hacker advocate, meaning I'm trying to fight [02:03.960 --> 02:11.340] for rights for the hacker community. I definitely am one of those people that I am tired of the [02:11.340 --> 02:16.120] public perception that hackers are terrible people and are criminals when in reality those are [02:16.120 --> 02:22.700] malicious actors and cyber criminals. So trying to change the narrative of that and trying to [02:22.700 --> 02:29.120] update the public perception of what a hacker really is. When I'm not doing that, I'm also [02:29.120 --> 02:33.660] the President and Co-Founder of WOSIC, Women of Security. We have chapters all over the world. [02:34.080 --> 02:39.520] Founder of We Are Hackers, formerly known as Women Hackers. And we basically are a private [02:39.520 --> 02:47.300] online community of hackers that have been our marginalized genders pretty much. And we [02:47.300 --> 02:52.180] hack at all different levels. We have workshops, events, and so on. And by the way, WOSIC and We [02:52.180 --> 02:58.680] Are Hackers are completely free, so feel free to join. I'm also a Hacker Book Club organizer, meaning I [02:58.680 --> 03:05.420] created this Hacker Book Club, which we basically read a new book written by a hacker member or [03:05.420 --> 03:12.280] someone who wrote about the hacker community every month. And we meet every week at 5 p.m. [03:12.280 --> 03:19.400] Pacific time on Tuesdays. Next week we're going to start up, I believe, the Red Team edition of [03:19.400 --> 03:24.220] Tribe of Hackers. And yes, we hope to have people that are mentioned in the book come and attend. [03:24.240 --> 03:31.140] Usually we do, and also the author. And last but not least, I also have a podcast with ITSP [03:31.140 --> 03:36.480] Magazine, The Uncommon Journey, with Phil Wiley and Alyssa Miller. And basically we [03:37.160 --> 03:42.520] interview people that you usually follow on Twitter to find out how they got into infosec, [03:42.520 --> 03:48.540] what are the things that they've learned along the way, and also ask them random questions, [03:48.540 --> 03:55.760] such as what's their favorite drink or what book changed their life. That is my website below. [03:55.760 --> 04:02.000] Feel free to learn anything you want about me. It's probably on there. And also I am on [04:02.000 --> 04:07.840] Twitter and Instagram, so feel free to follow if you like. So I want to start painting some scenarios [04:07.840 --> 04:14.620] to get you understanding what burnout is like. And so I'm going to give you different scenarios to [04:14.620 --> 04:23.860] know of. These are usually signs of knowing you have it, and also signs of others having it. So [04:23.860 --> 04:29.280] keep an eye on it, just in case if you may not be experiencing it, but your friend or family [04:29.760 --> 04:34.620] or colleague is, that you'll be there to support them and give them guidance. [04:35.820 --> 04:42.560] And also let them know that therapists are also there for you. So I want you to do is picture [04:42.560 --> 04:49.020] that you're driving, okay? And while you're driving, you're about to merge into the left lane. [04:49.020 --> 04:56.160] And in that moment, you're thinking, should I not look in my mirror? By not looking in my mirror, [04:56.160 --> 05:01.760] that means if I get in a car accident, I don't have to do that task, or that assignment, or that [05:01.760 --> 05:07.280] project. I can actually get away from work, or I could get away from family. I can get a break for [05:07.280 --> 05:14.520] once, so I don't feel as trapped. Another scenario. It used to take you maybe a few minutes to respond [05:14.520 --> 05:21.220] to an email. Now it's taking you 10 minutes, maybe hours, maybe days, and then weeks. And then next [05:21.220 --> 05:27.420] thing you know, your inbox is so overwhelming that just going to it starts causing some tense [05:27.420 --> 05:34.160] and anxiety, and anxious, and thoughts that go through your head, because you're overwhelmed [05:34.160 --> 05:40.640] and feel stuck. And you don't know where that energy is, that passion, that drive to be able to [05:40.640 --> 05:48.380] respond to all those emails on time. Another scenario, for those of us that deal with burnout, [05:49.020 --> 05:53.620] is remember what I said at the beginning, which is burnout usually occurs when your personal and [05:53.620 --> 06:00.320] your work life is not balanced? Well, think about it in this way. You have friends and family. They [06:00.320 --> 06:05.040] always reach out to you at times, and especially during a pandemic, they might be reaching out a [06:05.040 --> 06:10.000] little bit more than usual. Even people you've never heard from for years are now checking in [06:10.000 --> 06:20.840] on you. But for some reason, you keep declining calls, or you don't respond to messages, or you [06:20.840 --> 06:28.360] just kind of see your friends and family members or colleagues as a task. That each person is another [06:28.360 --> 06:33.860] project that you have to take on top of this already overwhelming amount of projects and [06:33.860 --> 06:40.020] assignments that you have. And granted, yes, you could be busy, and that's why you don't pick up [06:40.020 --> 06:47.180] your friends' calls or respond to text messages. That is true. Busy is due. But when you're burnout, [06:47.180 --> 06:52.800] you also do it because you start seeing them as a task, and it's overwhelming. [06:54.960 --> 07:02.420] With burnout, it can also cause these sudden emotions such as sadness or anger over little [07:02.420 --> 07:08.100] tiny things where basically you used to be able to be calm and collective, but now you're starting [07:08.100 --> 07:12.340] to find yourself struggling to do that. You'll read a tweet, and then you just kind of want to [07:12.340 --> 07:21.920] throw your devices or, I don't know, flip over a desk. I see just a tweet. Or you could be watching [07:21.920 --> 07:28.480] some commercials, and you see a puppy, and then you start wanting to cry. So the thing to know [07:28.480 --> 07:32.680] about burnout is that your emotions are not technically all over the place. The thing is [07:32.680 --> 07:39.720] is that you can easily get agitated, sad, and angry because you're feeling like you're stuck [07:39.720 --> 07:45.560] somewhere. You feel maybe lonely, but the feeling usually that people get when they're burnout is [07:45.560 --> 07:53.160] this feeling of being trapped and overwhelmed, feeling like you don't know how to get away from [07:53.160 --> 08:01.560] it, where you're just sitting there, and no matter what you do, you just feel overwhelmed, exhausted, [08:02.160 --> 08:06.620] and you just feel like, what is going on with my life? [08:07.800 --> 08:13.400] And of course, when you're burned out, there are times where you'll procrastinate a lot. I mean, [08:13.400 --> 08:18.300] granted, I procrastinated definitely around assignments or studying for a test, [08:18.300 --> 08:25.360] and I'm sure you did too, but the thing is is that due dates are there, and we'll find ways to [08:25.900 --> 08:30.580] procrastinate or push them out if necessary. And this is common, and this could be anything [08:30.580 --> 08:38.520] from family events, or it could be your work events and whatnot. Due dates being pushed out [08:38.520 --> 08:42.720] is something that people that are burned out just are like, you know what, I can't deal with it for [08:42.720 --> 08:46.540] the next week. I'm going to do it the next week, and then the next week, and then the next week. [08:48.260 --> 08:54.300] But overall, when we talk about burnout, usually we have this situation where we just feel so, [08:54.300 --> 09:00.680] so tired. No matter how many hours of sleep that we get, we just feel so tired and exhausted. [09:01.720 --> 09:05.720] That feels like, say, for example, you slept nine or ten hours, but you still feel [09:05.720 --> 09:11.340] so tired, and you know, it's kind of like this image where you feel that tired. [09:13.600 --> 09:19.800] Or better yet, maybe this image rings a bell for you, where you're just like, I just, I can't focus [09:19.800 --> 09:25.660] on anything. I think I'm going to listen to music. Maybe that will help. Or you're just like, I just [09:25.660 --> 09:33.560] need a break. I need something, but you're still stuck in that chair. So we're going to talk about [09:33.560 --> 09:41.720] burnout, and a good descriptive way of saying what is burnout is basically, imagine you are your phone, [09:42.280 --> 09:47.640] and you're on the red part of your battery. It's basically, you're at very low battery, [09:47.640 --> 09:55.360] and you feel like you need to be charged and everything like that, but it's hard to get there. [09:56.820 --> 10:00.980] And I just want to remind you guys, I'm not a therapist at all, but I have gone through [10:00.980 --> 10:07.780] burnouts, ups and downs, but I know how to fix it and prevent them before it gets worse. I did [10:07.780 --> 10:12.860] take a break for the first time in two and a half years in July for one week to recharge my [10:12.860 --> 10:18.980] batteries finally. It was long and overdue, but I just want to let you guys know that it is very [10:18.980 --> 10:27.280] possible to prevent burnout and also to get out of burnout. And it's most important is to be able [10:27.280 --> 10:35.060] to know and recognize that, so then you can get back to normal. But I do want to let you guys know [10:35.060 --> 10:39.060] that I do recommend seeing a doctor, and it's not just because they're on burnout and emotional [10:39.060 --> 10:44.600] stuff, but the other thing is sometimes people feel burned out because they're lacking certain [10:44.600 --> 10:51.080] vitamins in their body. So it's really important to get your vitals checked. For example, last year, [10:51.080 --> 10:57.460] I felt very tired and I didn't know why, and I thought, oh, maybe it's burnout, but then I didn't [10:57.460 --> 11:02.600] feel like it was burnout. But I went and I got checked, and my iron levels were a little bit low, [11:02.600 --> 11:08.200] so I had to take some iron to get back to normal with energy. I got like within a few days [11:08.200 --> 11:12.360] afterwards. So the thing is, it's really important to get your blood checked, make sure that your [11:12.360 --> 11:18.940] vitamins are all good, especially many of us are depleted on vitamin D. So it's really important [11:18.940 --> 11:23.780] for us to make sure that we're hitting all our vitamins, especially when we're stuck inside and [11:23.780 --> 11:30.660] during a pandemic. It's important. You gotta take care of your body. But what is burnout? This is [11:30.660 --> 11:35.540] the actual term, which is burnout is a state of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion caused [11:35.540 --> 11:40.340] by excessive and prolonged stress. It occurs when you feel overwhelmed, emotionally drained, and [11:40.340 --> 11:46.700] unable to meet constant demands. Below there is a quiz that you can take to see whether or not [11:46.700 --> 11:50.980] you're burned out. Now, I just want to let you know, if you enjoy the work that you do and where [11:50.980 --> 11:57.980] you work, chances are that quiz is not going to be as helpful for you. That is the one thing that I've [11:57.980 --> 12:03.720] realized. So if you love your job, I think the best way how to know whether or not you're dealing [12:03.720 --> 12:09.880] with burnout were those scenarios that I painted for you a little bit earlier. And so this quiz is [12:09.880 --> 12:14.700] really good to know because it can let you know if you're already in that burnout phase. [12:17.140 --> 12:22.860] But you also need to be aware of it. So I'm going to teach you some ways how to prevent [12:22.860 --> 12:28.400] burnout. And then from there, we'll go into if you're already burned out, what to do next. So [12:28.400 --> 12:34.260] let's first dive into how to prevent burnout. Now, usually they say to you, oh, you need exercise, [12:34.260 --> 12:39.880] you need to eat a balanced diet, practice good sleep habits, ask for help. Well, that's just [12:39.880 --> 12:46.960] great. However, I'm in the middle of a pandemic. So where am I going to go exercise? Gyms are closed. [12:46.960 --> 12:53.340] Eat a balanced diet. I can't go to the grocery store all the time because every time it puts [12:53.340 --> 13:00.000] myself and my family or friends at risk. Practice good sleep habits. Yeah, that would be nice to do, [13:00.000 --> 13:06.240] except that I have insomnia that I'm going to get this or someone's going to get it or something and [13:06.240 --> 13:11.200] I'm going to lose someone. How can I sleep? Also, the world just seems like it's on fire, [13:11.200 --> 13:16.840] especially in the U.S. It seems like everything is on fire. But the good news is you can still [13:16.840 --> 13:22.600] ask for help, right? And I just want to touch on those things. Exercise, yes, that'd be great. And [13:22.600 --> 13:27.320] you can do some workouts at home. There are plenty of YouTube videos out there and it's [13:27.320 --> 13:34.600] important for you to try. Eat a balanced diet and just be cognizant of what you're putting into your [13:34.600 --> 13:42.040] body. For example, usually when we're stressed out, we crave salty, sugary foods. So just be [13:42.040 --> 13:47.180] aware if you're taking in more salty, sugary foods. That might be one of those things you [13:47.180 --> 13:51.820] want to try to avoid, especially before bed, because that's not going to help you sleep. [13:52.400 --> 13:57.900] So I do recommend eating a balanced diet. You know, be healthy, treat your body well because [13:57.900 --> 14:03.880] your body will reward you in return. Practice good sleep habits. I understand insomnia is a [14:03.880 --> 14:09.180] big deal right now. And I know the first few months of the pandemic, when it started becoming [14:09.400 --> 14:15.020] a real situation, I was struggling to sleep because all I was thinking about was, [14:15.740 --> 14:20.920] am I going to give this to my parents? And I'm going to be responsible for their death. [14:20.920 --> 14:27.740] And that was really hard to try to sleep through the night. So I do understand that. [14:28.080 --> 14:33.300] And there are some examples that I will provide for you. Not examples, but things that you can [14:33.300 --> 14:40.140] practice to try to get better sleep. And lastly, ask for help. That's never been a problem, [14:40.140 --> 14:44.640] especially in our community. All you have to basically do is tweet and tag and people will [14:44.640 --> 14:53.400] respond. We're pretty good on that. But let's first dive into how to prevent. So self-awareness. [14:53.400 --> 14:59.160] Remember, you have to be aware that you're in burnout. And many of us, if it's our first time, [14:59.160 --> 15:04.420] we don't know that we're burned out until maybe after this talk you realize, oh my god, I've been [15:04.420 --> 15:11.680] burned out for such a long time. I had no idea. This makes so much sense. And that is a [15:11.680 --> 15:17.000] possibility. I didn't really know about burnout until like a year or two ago, but I definitely [15:17.000 --> 15:22.160] dealt with it in the past. So being aware that you're going through it is going to be really [15:22.160 --> 15:26.460] important for you. So how do you know whether or not you're burned out? Remember those examples I [15:26.460 --> 15:30.920] gave you? Those would be good guides. For example, no matter how much sleep you get, you just still feel [15:30.920 --> 15:37.860] tired. You feel like you have no passion or drive at work. You feel overwhelmed. You can easily get [15:37.860 --> 15:44.680] angry or sad and agitated. The general feeling of feeling like you're stuck. These are all those [15:44.680 --> 15:52.860] signs. Being very anxious about every day when it comes to work and logging in. That's another sign [15:52.860 --> 15:57.560] where it used to take you like a few minutes to respond to an email. Now it takes you much longer [15:57.560 --> 16:04.260] or you just don't want to respond. That's a sign. So these are signs to recall those. Now it's also [16:04.260 --> 16:09.300] important that when you're dealing with burnout is to remind yourself of things that are positive. [16:09.300 --> 16:14.780] Even if you're going through a terrible time, there should be at least three things that you're [16:14.780 --> 16:20.940] thankful for every single day. So I do recommend that when you wake up, think of three things that [16:20.940 --> 16:27.480] make you happy, that you're thankful for. And then before going to sleep, give three things again [16:27.480 --> 16:31.740] that you're thankful for and change it up the list. And if you don't want to do it like twice, [16:31.740 --> 16:35.640] it is still cool. You could just do it once a day. But it's there to remind you that there [16:35.640 --> 16:42.140] are some things to be happy about in the middle of an extremely stressful time. [16:43.960 --> 16:50.380] But also having self-awareness, it's really good is to journal it. So I have a journal or diary, [16:50.380 --> 16:58.260] whatever you want to call it. I write in it. I try to do it at least once a week. And what I do is [16:58.260 --> 17:04.420] that I write by hand. And I do recommend if you can, write by hand. There's something about it [17:04.420 --> 17:11.780] that's really... I don't know the quite good word for it, but it's very therapeutic. There's something [17:11.780 --> 17:17.700] about releasing your hand and being able to write whatever that's coming into your head and like [17:17.700 --> 17:24.020] deep down inside. So the thing is, journaling is really good because after you write in your journal, [17:24.020 --> 17:30.080] go back to other times that you wrote in there and try to see if there's any patterns. [17:30.460 --> 17:36.680] So patterns such as like using a term trapped multiple times or [17:38.160 --> 17:42.900] feeling overwhelmed or whatnot. You want to keep track of the patterns that you're seeing [17:42.900 --> 17:47.280] because once you see the pattern, recognize the pattern, then you're able to start working [17:47.280 --> 17:52.560] at fixing it. So it's really important to journal, write it down. It helps bring that [17:52.560 --> 17:56.500] self-awareness also to know what's going deep down inside that you are not aware of because [17:56.500 --> 18:01.840] we're constantly distracted, right? So it's very hard to like basically know what's going on with [18:01.840 --> 18:09.660] you sometimes. And so you guys also know that I'm one of those people that I hate my devices [18:09.660 --> 18:14.680] at the end of the day. I don't recommend throwing it on the ground. There are definitely times where [18:14.680 --> 18:21.840] I read something on Twitter and I'm just like, are you kidding me? And yes, there are times where I'm [18:21.840 --> 18:25.600] like, I'm going to throw my phone on the ground. But at the same time, I'm like, yeah, that's going [18:25.600 --> 18:33.520] to cost me some money that I don't want to use. But what I mean by, you know, you're breaking from [18:33.520 --> 18:41.020] your phones, your devices in general, let me take a break. I do this thing called a device [18:41.020 --> 18:47.160] detox. And I know that sounds very goop or goopish, I guess. But the thing is to know is to [18:47.160 --> 18:53.180] turn off your devices, get off of social media at least once a week. That means pick one day of [18:53.320 --> 19:01.640] a week that you take at least, I would say, four hours and beyond to just be unplugged. [19:01.640 --> 19:06.880] Meaning you're far away, your phones are off, your computer's off, basically take the time to do [19:06.880 --> 19:12.020] something new or learn something new. But the thing is, it's really important is to get one day per [19:12.020 --> 19:19.480] week where you don't do anything InfoSec related. I know, but Chloe, InfoSec is a lifestyle. I agree. [19:19.480 --> 19:24.460] It definitely is, but it will get you burned out. So it's really important to take one day off [19:24.460 --> 19:30.400] so you can readjust and be there more in your personal life because you have a life outside [19:30.400 --> 19:38.620] of InfoSec too, believe it or not. So do the things that make you happy and you enjoy. But it's really [19:38.620 --> 19:45.000] important is to take a break from your devices, take a day away. Now, if you do, make sure that [19:45.000 --> 19:49.300] you message your loved ones letting them know you're going to be offline during these hours [19:49.300 --> 19:56.220] so they don't worry and stress out. But I do recommend doing this for preventative reasons. [19:56.220 --> 20:02.980] I do take one day per week off from all devices and social media. And if I can't do a full day, [20:02.980 --> 20:08.160] at least try six hours for one of the days. So just know that it's really good because you get [20:08.700 --> 20:14.400] to have that get really in touch with your self-awareness and sense. [20:16.040 --> 20:21.260] Write it down. So the other thing that I do is I keep a to-do list. So this to-do list goes [20:21.260 --> 20:27.700] everywhere with me. And yes, everywhere in my apartment. But the thing is that what you want to do [20:27.700 --> 20:34.460] is have it near you in your bed. That's going to be really important for you. And also to take it [20:34.460 --> 20:40.440] everywhere with you. So the reason I say take it to by your bed, have next to your bed is because [20:40.440 --> 20:47.740] in the middle of night or right when you're closing your eyes, going into nice sleep, suddenly this [20:47.740 --> 20:54.680] thing goes popping up. And you're like, I forgot to send that email. Oh god, I forgot to do that [20:54.680 --> 20:59.860] thing. Oh, I need to send that email. Wish I had written that email. And you keep thinking about it. [20:59.860 --> 21:03.020] And then you're not going to fall asleep because now you're thinking of all these things. And you [21:03.020 --> 21:07.160] might wake up early in the morning thinking you have to do all these things. The thing is, [21:07.160 --> 21:12.680] if you want better sleep, write it down. For some reason, it feels like as if you're taking [21:14.360 --> 21:19.820] whatever amount of space that's now clogged by all the tasks that you have to do and pulling it [21:19.820 --> 21:25.840] right out. Kind of like a Harry Potter situation in a sense. With Dumbledore, you know when he [21:25.840 --> 21:33.080] takes his wand and he takes his memories out. Anyway, it's like that. It's where you free up [21:33.080 --> 21:38.040] your mind and you have more space to think and do other things. So having a to-do list is really [21:38.040 --> 21:41.820] good. It'll help you get better sleep. And if you're wondering, well, Chloe, I'm going to feel [21:41.820 --> 21:47.020] really anxious putting together this list because it's going to remind me of all the things I need [21:47.020 --> 21:51.060] to do and it's going to stress me out. I'm going to have an anxiety or a panic attack. I'm pretty [21:51.060 --> 21:58.020] sure of it. Let me just let you know one thing. When I first did it, I had the exact same belief. [21:58.020 --> 22:04.140] I'm someone who deals with anxiety. But what I did was that when I filled it up, it was five [22:04.140 --> 22:11.300] pages long. Now it's one page long. But it was five pages long. It made me realize how many things [22:11.300 --> 22:17.380] that I am doing and made me take a step back to realize I need to start telling people no. [22:18.300 --> 22:24.260] So knowing how much weight you're carrying will also help you address why you're feeling burned [22:24.260 --> 22:30.300] out. And then try to think of ways how to reduce that amount of work and also to get those projects [22:30.300 --> 22:34.740] off your plate. If that means having a conversation with a manager, that means having a conversation [22:34.740 --> 22:42.240] with a manager. But it's important to do that. Now talking about managers. Now, if you are a manager, [22:42.240 --> 22:47.720] we need to talk. You need to be there for your team members. You need to invest in your team [22:47.720 --> 22:53.900] members. That means you need to give them time off. I highly recommend doing a mental health day. [22:53.900 --> 22:58.760] For example, every month you give a day off to your employees and please pick a Friday or Monday [22:58.760 --> 23:04.780] because we love three-day weekends. And basically use that time for them to do whatever they want. [23:04.780 --> 23:11.680] If it means going through old projects, if that means doing any of those things, do it. Give it to [23:11.680 --> 23:16.580] them. They deserve it. Especially right now. We all could use a break and an extra holiday every month, [23:16.580 --> 23:23.000] right? So I do recommend that. The other thing is to have make sure you have something in place [23:23.000 --> 23:31.760] where every week your entire security team gets one day heads down. I know it sounds really weird, [23:31.760 --> 23:39.140] but it basically means no meetings day. So have one day per week where no one can give or set any [23:39.140 --> 23:45.200] meetings for any of your members. And just have that week every week where it is blocked for them [23:45.200 --> 23:51.260] to be able to catch up on emails or to be able to do anything that they need to do to catch up. [23:51.260 --> 23:56.980] This will help them be able to breathe and relax. Now the other thing that you should also do is [23:56.980 --> 24:02.460] make sure you schedule one-on-ones with your employees. And there's a reason for that. It [24:02.460 --> 24:07.760] could be anywhere from like 15 minutes to 20 minutes or whatnot. But making sure that you're [24:07.760 --> 24:13.520] both going through what projects are that person's working on and what to prioritize is going to help [24:13.520 --> 24:19.760] them too. They need to know what to prioritize and you are there to help coach them through that. [24:19.760 --> 24:25.300] So I really do recommend that because then it allows them to be able to reduce the amount of [24:25.300 --> 24:32.340] stress and pressure that is on them. Also if any of your team members go to you saying I need to [24:32.340 --> 24:40.360] take time off, give it to them. They need it. Chances are we could all use a vacation and to [24:42.020 --> 24:48.080] recharge our batteries. So if someone comes up to you and saying hey I really need to take some [24:48.080 --> 24:57.720] time off to get back to my normalcy, you should allow that. And also because a good manager invests [24:57.720 --> 25:04.760] in their people and see them go beyond them. So do whatever you can to do that too. All right, [25:04.760 --> 25:11.340] next one. How to bounce back. So we went over how to prevent burnout, right? So those are all [25:11.340 --> 25:16.760] those things that you can do. Now we're going to talk about what to do if you're already burned [25:16.760 --> 25:22.000] out. Congratulations, it sucks, doesn't it? So we're going to talk about how to bounce back. [25:22.280 --> 25:27.320] So first thing first, you need to take a break. I'm sorry to tell you, but there is no way you're [25:27.320 --> 25:32.680] going to recover unless you take time off. You need at least three business days off. And if you're like [25:32.680 --> 25:39.060] okay, so three-day weekend. No, that's not three business days. What I mean is five days off in [25:39.060 --> 25:47.000] return, right? So have the full weekend and three business days. That's five days. You need to take [25:47.000 --> 25:52.880] at least that amount. Now depending how bad your burnout is and how long it's been since you took a [25:52.880 --> 26:00.080] break, I highly recommend you taking up to a week or two off if you can. If not two weeks, that's okay. [26:00.080 --> 26:05.960] Just do one week. Now if you're stressed out about taking a break like I did, that's why I didn't [26:05.960 --> 26:11.680] take a break for two and a half years. I was worried that I was going to basically push all [26:11.680 --> 26:17.800] my team members more work on their plate and I didn't feel like that was fair to them. Now the [26:17.800 --> 26:22.260] important thing to note is that when you're burned out, chances are you are going to be missing [26:22.260 --> 26:28.660] deadlines. You're not going to be up to par with your team. Your team members are already carrying [26:28.660 --> 26:32.880] extra weight that you may not even know about because you're burned out. Because you're not [26:32.880 --> 26:38.240] 100% there or present because you can't because you're burned out. So it's really important for [26:38.240 --> 26:43.080] you to take the time off and have that conversation with your manager. Now if you're wondering how do [26:43.080 --> 26:47.600] I have that conversation with a manager, what you do is you schedule your one-on-one or hopefully [26:47.600 --> 26:52.900] you have a good manager who does one-on-ones with you and tell them I need to take some days [26:52.900 --> 27:00.080] off to recharge my batteries. I'm feeling burned out and overwhelmed and I just these are the [27:00.080 --> 27:04.340] the weeks that I have in mind and I need to do it probably sooner the better. [27:05.920 --> 27:11.640] And after you have that conversation with your manager, what you want to do is send an email to [27:11.640 --> 27:19.100] them after your conversation basically reminding them that you had that conversation and that [27:19.100 --> 27:24.780] you're burned out and all that stuff. Send it to them. Keep a paper trail. That paper trail is going [27:24.780 --> 27:31.920] to help you in your life most likely if it's needed. I've learned one thing in my career which [27:31.920 --> 27:36.660] is always keep a paper trail because the thing is is that you need to protect yourself and it also [27:36.660 --> 27:42.200] reduces the stress of am I going to lose my job for trying to take some time off. You shouldn't worry [27:42.200 --> 27:47.940] about that. Now you have a record of it. So keep that. Also forward that email to your personal [27:47.940 --> 27:53.220] email as well so you have a copy of it as well in a personal account in case if you don't have [27:53.220 --> 27:58.440] your work account anymore. This is just really good practice overall and I hate that we have to [27:58.440 --> 28:05.320] do that in this world but we do. Just be safe. Now when you take your time off, it's really important [28:05.320 --> 28:12.960] is that for your out of office message for it to be two days later than the date that you return. [28:12.960 --> 28:18.240] For example, if you're coming back on the 14th, say you're coming back on the 16th and the reason [28:18.240 --> 28:23.520] for that it gives you two days of responding to any emails in your inbox and to get through your [28:23.520 --> 28:31.680] flooded inbox. When I returned I had over a thousand emails and I'm so glad that I blocked those two [28:31.680 --> 28:36.920] days off just to respond to all those emails, which is my other point. Also make sure that you [28:36.920 --> 28:44.060] block one to two days when you get back or before you get back that is. Just block the entire day [28:44.060 --> 28:49.440] for no meeting so then you're able to be on top of everything that you're able to know what's [28:49.440 --> 28:54.560] happening and you can respond to all your emails so you can get back to your zero inbox when you [28:54.560 --> 29:01.780] start. This is going to help you right away. Now the other thing to note about it is make sure that [29:01.780 --> 29:10.220] you tell your colleagues that if they need anything from you to keep you cc'd and keep you updated via [29:10.220 --> 29:15.180] emails not through slack or or any other communication channels because this is a [29:15.180 --> 29:20.900] way for you know one place to look and one place to learn everything. When you have multiple [29:20.900 --> 29:25.080] different channels of communication this could be really hard on you when you get back and it [29:25.080 --> 29:29.620] can be very stressful and chances are things are going to get lost. So please remind them by [29:29.980 --> 29:34.380] contacting you via email and to seeing you during the time that you're gone so you're aware when you [29:34.380 --> 29:41.340] get back. Also having a project management type of platform is going to be really good so then [29:41.340 --> 29:46.860] you're also knowing what tasks that you're assigned to. Now the one thing that I do recommend also is [29:46.860 --> 29:52.060] if you're a manager and you're taking your time off when you do come back it's really important [29:52.060 --> 29:58.320] to also message all your the people that report to you and let them know like you're back and [29:58.320 --> 30:05.900] is there anything that is highly important that you need to prioritize within the first 24 or 48 [30:05.900 --> 30:12.180] hours of returning from work. Let them know see what they say and then you know find the time to [30:12.180 --> 30:17.980] do so. Just remember that and also yes right before you take your vacation chances are you [30:17.980 --> 30:25.640] are definitely gonna need you're gonna be very busy the week before so expect to be pulling in [30:25.640 --> 30:30.180] more hours that week because of taking time off. I hope that answers all your questions about taking [30:30.180 --> 30:34.880] off because chances are I know many of you were like I'm kind of stressed out about doing that [30:34.880 --> 30:41.100] but I need to do it probably so there you go. Remember three business days is the minimum [30:41.100 --> 30:47.760] for taking time off to recharge your batteries. Now remember that to-do list I was telling you [30:47.760 --> 30:54.020] about it's so important for you also to be able to learn how to say no. Chances are you've taken [30:54.020 --> 31:00.420] on a little too much than you can chew. I'm one of those people that's like oh another project oh [31:00.420 --> 31:06.000] I need to do that that'd be so cool that's a great idea go running with it and the next thing I know [31:06.000 --> 31:11.980] is I didn't really think of all the hours it's going to take. So the thing is it's okay but we [31:11.980 --> 31:18.560] learn right we learn from our mistakes so it's it's good to learn when to say no when and that's [31:18.560 --> 31:22.320] the hardest thing to do is especially when there's these great opportunities that come your way [31:23.040 --> 31:28.020] but it takes a lot of your hours and you just don't have it in you and you really need to find [31:28.020 --> 31:32.980] that work and personalized balance I really recommend trying to learn to say no. Now if [31:32.980 --> 31:39.880] you're someone who's underrepresented on your team I hate to break this to you chances are you're [31:39.880 --> 31:44.240] gonna feel a little bit more burned out a little bit faster than maybe your peers and the reason [31:44.240 --> 31:48.980] for that is because chances are you're constantly having to prove over and over and over you deserve [31:48.980 --> 31:55.440] and you belong where you are and that's going to be hard on you because chances are they also [31:55.440 --> 32:03.400] will give you extra work. I know by being a woman myself I kept getting work that would be like an [32:03.400 --> 32:09.080] assistant or secretary and it would annoy me so much but I would take it on anyway just to prove [32:09.080 --> 32:14.460] that I belong to be there and that's not my current job this is at a previous one and so it's [32:14.460 --> 32:19.360] really hard is to learn how to say no and I know it's scary to say no because you're worried your [32:19.360 --> 32:24.460] job is online especially in the middle of an economic situation too at this time but just [32:24.460 --> 32:31.540] please note that you also need to care about yourself and you should be working at a company [32:32.140 --> 32:37.240] and have a manager that supports you and invests in you and wants to you know basically do whatever [32:37.240 --> 32:42.240] they can to be there for you and if you don't have that I think it's time for you to look elsewhere [32:42.240 --> 32:45.260] There's plenty of companies out there that do that. [32:46.540 --> 32:50.760] Also, even if you're not someone who's underrepresented on your team, [32:50.760 --> 32:56.540] if you are one of those people that basically gets your work done a lot faster than most of your [32:56.540 --> 33:01.160] peers, or you're one of the top performers on the team, chances are you're going to be given [33:01.160 --> 33:05.940] more assignments, more tasks. You're going to wear multiple hats. So you're going to be feeling [33:05.940 --> 33:13.120] burned out a lot faster, too. So just keep that in mind on that front. So it's really important [33:13.120 --> 33:20.200] for you in particular to also learn how to say no. If it's not part of your job, you don't need [33:20.200 --> 33:25.580] to do it. I hate to remind you. And of course, yes, if other people on your team need the work [33:25.580 --> 33:30.420] and you're not burned out, yes, you should help them. You should support them. That is how team [33:30.420 --> 33:36.240] works. So teamwork, you got to have it. You got to work together. And helping each other out while [33:36.240 --> 33:40.440] you're all going through burnout at some point is going to be really important. But learn to say no [33:40.440 --> 33:45.300] if you're burned out and they're assigning tasks to you that has nothing to do with your job. [33:45.820 --> 33:52.580] Learn to say no. Now remember when I said, you know, you need to take care of yourself. [33:52.960 --> 33:59.220] The reason you're burned out is because you're not also investing in yourself. And I hate to [33:59.220 --> 34:05.980] bring that forward to you, but it is one of those things that you need to know about. Now stress is [34:05.980 --> 34:13.140] one thing. Stress is like, oh, I'll feel better if I drink that glass of wine or I'll feel better [34:13.140 --> 34:20.380] if I take a bubble bath or any of those kind of things. But burnout is I can drink all the wine [34:20.380 --> 34:28.240] and I can take all the baths, but I would still not feel back to normal or feel like I'm 100% [34:28.240 --> 34:33.760] balanced. And so that in itself is letting you know that you've taken on too many things. And [34:33.760 --> 34:38.040] this might be in your personal life. This might be in your work life. It might be a mix of the two. [34:38.040 --> 34:42.440] But it's really important to note is that even though we're trying to be there for one another, [34:42.440 --> 34:50.000] it's very hard to do that if us, we're not doing well ourselves. So that's why it's important to [34:50.000 --> 34:56.120] know that you need to invest in yourself, love yourself and take care of yourself, treat yourself [34:56.120 --> 35:02.240] right. And that's the important thing is that if you're working somewhere where they don't [35:02.240 --> 35:10.180] appreciate you, they don't want to invest in you. That's not good for you. At the end of the day, [35:10.180 --> 35:15.760] you shouldn't feel like that. And I'm so sorry that you're going through that if you are. I have [35:15.760 --> 35:22.580] been there and it's terrible. Because all you think about is do am I worthy? And that's the [35:22.580 --> 35:28.160] part because you feel trapped and you feel like you're worthless. And I just want to let you guys [35:28.160 --> 35:34.280] know that you are totally worthy. And you shouldn't feel trapped. And if you're looking for something, [35:34.280 --> 35:41.620] like a new gig, a place where they'll treat you better. Heck, DEF CON is here. And there are [35:41.620 --> 35:48.280] people here that work at companies and they're hiring right now. So let it be known. So start [35:48.280 --> 35:54.620] looking for work elsewhere. Keep the job that you have and just keep looking. And because [35:55.720 --> 36:02.820] don't be compliant when it comes to you and your well-being. You have to take care of yourself [36:02.820 --> 36:07.660] because who's going to take care of you at the end of the day? And that's the hardest thing. [36:08.420 --> 36:13.580] So remember, when you feel overwhelmed, do a device detox. When you feel overwhelmed, [36:13.580 --> 36:21.460] invest in yourself. When you feel overwhelmed, ask for help. Please ask for help. We're here for you. [36:21.460 --> 36:26.720] The community is here for you. I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for the community. So please [36:26.720 --> 36:32.920] remember that. When you feel overwhelmed, write it down. Do journaling. Do diary writing. Whatever [36:32.920 --> 36:38.220] you want to call it. Do a to-do list. Write it down. When you feel overwhelmed, take a break. [36:38.220 --> 36:44.200] Remember, take one day per week away from your devices and also from InfoSec. And that could be, [36:44.200 --> 36:50.120] you know, four hours plus, or it could be a whole complete day. Or if you're already burnout, [36:50.120 --> 36:56.360] please make sure that you take off at least three business days. When you feel overwhelmed, put [36:56.360 --> 37:01.560] yourself first. Remember, you have to put yourself first because you cannot be there for another [37:01.560 --> 37:07.540] person if you're not a hundred percent there. It's unfair to the person and it's unfair to you. [37:07.540 --> 37:15.660] When you feel overwhelmed, know you're not alone. We've, you, I understand being overwhelmed is a [37:15.660 --> 37:21.560] huge deal for you and I know that it can feel very isolating and you feel trapped and alone, [37:21.560 --> 37:26.980] but I want you to know you are not alone. There are people in this community that have your back. [37:26.980 --> 37:31.340] They're the ones that are going to be there to push you forward when you're feeling [37:31.340 --> 37:37.440] like you can't keep moving. All you have to do is ask and seek it. And if you don't know where [37:37.440 --> 37:44.380] to go first, my DMs are open. And honestly, there's also this group called Mental Health Hackers [37:44.380 --> 37:50.100] and they're a great group too. There's so many great organizations out there that support people [37:50.100 --> 37:56.440] in the InfoSec community. So you should never feel alone or isolated because we're all here for you. [37:57.320 --> 38:01.980] So most importantly, I hope you get from this talk, which is always ask the question, [38:01.980 --> 38:08.140] am I balancing my work and personal life? If not, take the steps to fix it now. And now you know how [38:08.140 --> 38:15.060] to do that because you know how to prevent and you know how to get back to normal. And like I said, [38:15.060 --> 38:23.060] I took one week off and I got way better and it felt way better. So just note that. Oh, and by the [38:23.060 --> 38:28.900] way, I forgot to mention this. If you are taking time off, don't be on your devices. Don't be on [38:28.900 --> 38:34.800] social media. Take time off from InfoSec because that's also part of taking the break and recharging [38:34.800 --> 38:42.300] your batteries. Okay. And lastly, thank you guys over at Recon Village for having me and thank you [38:42.300 --> 38:47.460] guys for existing and I hope you enjoy the rest of your DEF CON. And if you need anything, have [38:47.460 --> 38:51.880] any questions, feel free to ask me. Also, if you feel like you want to ask more privately, feel [38:51.880 --> 38:58.120] free to DM me. I am on Discord and I hope you guys have a wonderful DEF CON and please stay safe. [38:58.120 --> 39:02.700] I know that you got this and I believe in you and please don't ever feel alone while you're [39:02.700 --> 39:09.400] dealing with burnout. So that's all I want to say. Thank you guys again and stay safe and I'll [39:09.400 --> 39:16.320] catch you guys, I hope, later and hopefully in person next year. But yeah, take care now. Bye-bye everyone!