WEBVTT 00:00.860 --> 00:05.840 Hi everyone, my name is Chloe Mastaggi and I'm so excited to talk about burnout with you. 00:05.980 --> 00:10.180 So welcome, welcome to Recon Village and let's dive into my talk. 00:10.180 --> 00:13.720 So hold on for one second while I pull up my slides. 00:17.620 --> 00:19.640 All right, I hope you all can see it. 00:19.640 --> 00:21.620 I'm just gonna guess that you can. 00:21.620 --> 00:24.060 So welcome to the burnout talk. 00:24.100 --> 00:25.960 I'm looking forward to sharing this. 00:25.960 --> 00:31.100 I know that right now we're dealing with a lot of issues when it comes to COVID-19. 00:31.200 --> 00:42.560 We're dealing with a massive pandemic and then also on top of that many of us may have been burned out right before the pandemic or now it's making it worse. 00:42.640 --> 00:54.420 Or maybe you're experiencing burnout for the first time ever now because let's be real, there's no... we're stuck inside and we don't know what's gonna happen next. 00:54.420 --> 00:58.220 Humans, we like to have this feeling as if we have control. 00:58.220 --> 01:08.780 For example, we like to know that we have this ability to predict what to expect the next day or be able to plan out a trip in a couple of months or weeks. 01:08.780 --> 01:17.760 Even though, let's be real, we never really can predict everything every single day but we have this feeling that we have some sort of control of our life. 01:17.980 --> 01:35.060 At this time, it's very hard to have control of your life because with everything happening all at once, you're stuck inside and all the things that you used to do to reduce your stress or to see people be around others is now taken away. 01:35.240 --> 01:40.580 And this leaves you in a situation where your work and your personal life is now off balance. 01:40.580 --> 01:45.820 And when our personal life and work life is off balance, that's when we start facing burnout. 01:45.940 --> 01:53.480 So I'm excited to share this talk with you and please note I'm there to answer any questions that you may have. 01:53.480 --> 01:58.000 So let's first dive into, in case you don't know who I am, my name is Chloe Masayi. 01:58.000 --> 02:06.840 I'm the VP of Strategy over at Point3 Security and I'm not that an ethical hacker advocate, meaning I'm trying to fight for rights for the hacker community. 02:07.240 --> 02:19.080 I definitely am one of those people that I am tired of the public perception that hackers are terrible people and are criminals when in reality those are malicious actors and cyber criminals. 02:19.380 --> 02:27.220 So trying to change the narrative of that and trying to update the public perception of what a hacker really is. 02:27.900 --> 02:31.560 When I'm not doing that, I'm also the President and Co-Founder of WOSIC, Women of Security. 02:31.560 --> 02:33.660 We have chapters all over the world. 02:34.080 --> 02:37.900 Founder of We Are Hackers, formerly known as Women Hackers. 02:37.900 --> 02:47.140 And we basically are a private online community of hackers that have been our marginalized genders pretty much. 02:47.140 --> 02:48.320 And we hack at all different levels. 02:48.320 --> 02:50.580 We have workshops, events, and so on. 02:50.580 --> 02:55.600 And by the way, WOSIC and We Are Hackers are completely free, so feel free to join. 02:55.740 --> 03:08.780 I'm also a Hacker Book Club organizer, meaning I created this Hacker Book Club, which we basically read a new book written by a hacker member or someone who wrote about the hacker community every month. 03:08.780 --> 03:12.280 And we meet every week at 5 p.m. 03:12.280 --> 03:14.320 Pacific time on Tuesdays. 03:14.320 --> 03:20.640 Next week we're going to start up, I believe, the Red Team edition of Tribe of Hackers. 03:20.640 --> 03:24.220 And yes, we hope to have people that are mentioned in the book come and attend. 03:24.240 --> 03:26.960 Usually we do, and also the author. 03:27.920 --> 03:35.440 And last but not least, I also have a podcast with ITSP Magazine, The Uncommon Journey, with Phil Wiley and Alyssa Miller. 03:35.500 --> 03:53.760 And basically we interview people that you usually follow on Twitter to find out how they got into infosec, what are the things that they've learned along the way, and also ask them random questions, such as what's their favorite drink or what book changed their life. 03:54.280 --> 03:55.760 That is my website below. 03:55.760 --> 03:58.560 Feel free to learn anything you want about me. 03:58.560 --> 04:00.260 It's probably on there. 04:00.260 --> 04:04.780 And also I am on Twitter and Instagram, so feel free to follow if you like. 04:05.440 --> 04:12.320 So I want to start painting some scenarios to get you understanding what burnout is like. 04:12.320 --> 04:15.920 And so I'm going to give you different scenarios to know of. 04:15.940 --> 04:23.760 These are usually signs of knowing you have it, and also signs of others having it. 04:23.760 --> 04:34.620 So keep an eye on it, just in case if you may not be experiencing it, but your friend or family or colleague is, that you'll be there to support them and give them guidance. 04:35.820 --> 04:39.720 And also let them know that therapists are also there for you. 04:40.580 --> 04:44.440 So I want you to do is picture that you're driving, okay? 04:44.440 --> 04:49.020 And while you're driving, you're about to merge into the left lane. 04:49.020 --> 04:54.140 And in that moment, you're thinking, should I not look in my mirror? 04:54.720 --> 05:02.200 By not looking in my mirror, that means if I get in a car accident, I don't have to do that task, or that assignment, or that project. 05:02.200 --> 05:05.960 I can actually get away from work, or I could get away from family. 05:05.960 --> 05:09.800 I can get a break for once, so I don't feel as trapped. 05:10.780 --> 05:12.420 Another scenario. 05:12.640 --> 05:15.500 It used to take you maybe a few minutes to respond to an email. 05:15.660 --> 05:20.740 Now it's taking you 10 minutes, maybe hours, maybe days, and then weeks. 05:20.740 --> 05:36.480 And then next thing you know, your inbox is so overwhelming that just going to it starts causing some tense and anxiety, and anxious, and thoughts that go through your head, because you're overwhelmed and feel stuck. 05:36.900 --> 05:43.080 And you don't know where that energy is, that passion, that drive to be able to respond to all those emails on time. 05:44.480 --> 05:55.660 Another scenario, for those of us that deal with burnout, is remember what I said at the beginning, which is burnout usually occurs when your personal and your work life is not balanced? 05:55.980 --> 05:58.160 Well, think about it in this way. 05:58.360 --> 06:00.220 You have friends and family. 06:00.220 --> 06:06.140 They always reach out to you at times, and especially during a pandemic, they might be reaching out a little bit more than usual. 06:06.140 --> 06:10.860 Even people you've never heard from for years are now checking in on you. 06:11.120 --> 06:25.640 But for some reason, you keep declining calls, or you don't respond to messages, or you just kind of see your friends and family members or colleagues as a task. 06:25.900 --> 06:35.700 That each person is another project that you have to take on top of this already overwhelming amount of projects and assignments that you have. 06:36.820 --> 06:43.340 And granted, yes, you could be busy, and that's why you don't pick up your friends' calls or respond to text messages. 06:43.340 --> 06:44.220 That is true. 06:44.220 --> 06:45.300 Busy is due. 06:45.400 --> 06:52.800 But when you're burnout, you also do it because you start seeing them as a task, and it's overwhelming. 06:54.960 --> 07:10.240 With burnout, it can also cause these sudden emotions such as sadness or anger over little tiny things where basically you used to be able to be calm and collective, but now you're starting to find yourself struggling to do that. 07:10.240 --> 07:16.520 You'll read a tweet, and then you just kind of want to throw your devices or, I don't know, flip over a desk. 07:17.280 --> 07:19.460 I see just a tweet. 07:20.180 --> 07:26.820 Or you could be watching some commercials, and you see a puppy, and then you start wanting to cry. 07:27.100 --> 07:32.100 So the thing to know about burnout is that your emotions are not technically all over the place. 07:32.100 --> 07:40.520 The thing is is that you can easily get agitated, sad, and angry because you're feeling like you're stuck somewhere. 07:40.520 --> 08:00.860 You feel maybe lonely, but the feeling usually that people get when they're burnout is this feeling of being trapped and overwhelmed, feeling like you don't know how to get away from it, where you're just sitting there, and no matter what you do, you just feel overwhelmed, 08:00.860 --> 08:06.620 exhausted, and you just feel like, what is going on with my life? 08:07.800 --> 08:13.120 And of course, when you're burned out, there are times where you'll procrastinate a lot. 08:13.120 --> 08:28.760 I mean, granted, I procrastinated definitely around assignments or studying for a test, and I'm sure you did too, but the thing is is that due dates are there, and we'll find ways to procrastinate or push them out if necessary. 08:28.760 --> 08:36.440 And this is common, and this could be anything from family events, or it could be your work events and whatnot. 08:37.360 --> 08:43.160 Due dates being pushed out is something that people that are burned out just are like, you know what, I can't deal with it for the next week. 08:43.160 --> 08:46.540 I'm going to do it the next week, and then the next week, and then the next week. 08:48.260 --> 08:55.540 But overall, when we talk about burnout, usually we have this situation where we just feel so, so tired. 08:55.540 --> 09:00.680 No matter how many hours of sleep that we get, we just feel so tired and exhausted. 09:01.720 --> 09:11.340 That feels like, say, for example, you slept nine or ten hours, but you still feel so tired, and you know, it's kind of like this image where you feel that tired. 09:13.600 --> 09:21.520 Or better yet, maybe this image rings a bell for you, where you're just like, I just, I can't focus on anything. 09:21.640 --> 09:23.460 I think I'm going to listen to music. 09:23.460 --> 09:24.420 Maybe that will help. 09:24.420 --> 09:26.400 Or you're just like, I just need a break. 09:26.400 --> 09:30.400 I need something, but you're still stuck in that chair. 09:32.180 --> 09:45.260 So we're going to talk about burnout, and a good descriptive way of saying what is burnout is basically, imagine you are your phone, and you're on the red part of your battery. 09:45.260 --> 09:55.360 It's basically, you're at very low battery, and you feel like you need to be charged and everything like that, but it's hard to get there. 09:56.820 --> 10:06.580 And I just want to remind you guys, I'm not a therapist at all, but I have gone through burnouts, ups and downs, but I know how to fix it and prevent them before it gets worse. 10:07.040 --> 10:13.940 I did take a break for the first time in two and a half years in July for one week to recharge my batteries finally. 10:13.940 --> 10:25.180 It was long and overdue, but I just want to let you guys know that it is very possible to prevent burnout and also to get out of burnout. 10:25.620 --> 10:31.820 And it's most important is to be able to know and recognize that, so then you can get back to normal. 10:33.240 --> 10:46.120 But I do want to let you guys know that I do recommend seeing a doctor, and it's not just because they're on burnout and emotional stuff, but the other thing is sometimes people feel burned out because they're lacking certain vitamins in their body. 10:46.120 --> 10:48.860 So it's really important to get your vitals checked. 10:49.260 --> 10:58.840 For example, last year, I felt very tired and I didn't know why, and I thought, oh, maybe it's burnout, but then I didn't feel like it was burnout. 10:58.840 --> 11:06.720 But I went and I got checked, and my iron levels were a little bit low, so I had to take some iron to get back to normal with energy. 11:06.720 --> 11:08.940 I got like within a few days afterwards. 11:08.940 --> 11:17.840 So the thing is, it's really important to get your blood checked, make sure that your vitamins are all good, especially many of us are depleted on vitamin D. 11:17.840 --> 11:24.760 So it's really important for us to make sure that we're hitting all our vitamins, especially when we're stuck inside and during a pandemic. 11:24.760 --> 11:25.360 It's important. 11:25.360 --> 11:26.900 You gotta take care of your body. 11:28.620 --> 11:30.200 But what is burnout? 11:30.260 --> 11:37.800 This is the actual term, which is burnout is a state of emotional, physical, and mental exhaustion caused by excessive and prolonged stress. 11:37.820 --> 11:42.560 It occurs when you feel overwhelmed, emotionally drained, and unable to meet constant demands. 11:42.660 --> 11:47.540 Below there is a quiz that you can take to see whether or not you're burned out. 11:47.540 --> 11:55.060 Now, I just want to let you know, if you enjoy the work that you do and where you work, chances are that quiz is not going to be as helpful for you. 11:56.460 --> 11:58.560 That is the one thing that I've realized. 11:58.560 --> 12:07.800 So if you love your job, I think the best way how to know whether or not you're dealing with burnout were those scenarios that I painted for you a little bit earlier. 12:08.380 --> 12:14.700 And so this quiz is really good to know because it can let you know if you're already in that burnout phase. 12:17.140 --> 12:19.820 But you also need to be aware of it. 12:20.300 --> 12:23.760 So I'm going to teach you some ways how to prevent burnout. 12:23.780 --> 12:28.140 And then from there, we'll go into if you're already burned out, what to do next. 12:28.140 --> 12:30.860 So let's first dive into how to prevent burnout. 12:30.960 --> 12:38.860 Now, usually they say to you, oh, you need exercise, you need to eat a balanced diet, practice good sleep habits, ask for help. 12:38.940 --> 12:40.400 Well, that's just great. 12:40.420 --> 12:43.440 However, I'm in the middle of a pandemic. 12:43.480 --> 12:45.660 So where am I going to go exercise? 12:45.660 --> 12:46.960 Gyms are closed. 12:46.960 --> 12:48.860 Eat a balanced diet. 12:48.860 --> 12:56.420 I can't go to the grocery store all the time because every time it puts myself and my family or friends at risk. 12:56.600 --> 12:58.340 Practice good sleep habits. 12:58.600 --> 13:07.780 Yeah, that would be nice to do, except that I have insomnia that I'm going to get this or someone's going to get it or something and I'm going to lose someone. 13:07.780 --> 13:08.660 How can I sleep? 13:08.660 --> 13:12.380 Also, the world just seems like it's on fire, especially in the U.S. 13:12.380 --> 13:14.500 It seems like everything is on fire. 13:15.380 --> 13:18.100 But the good news is you can still ask for help, right? 13:18.640 --> 13:20.880 And I just want to touch on those things. 13:20.880 --> 13:22.480 Exercise, yes, that'd be great. 13:22.480 --> 13:25.100 And you can do some workouts at home. 13:25.100 --> 13:28.980 There are plenty of YouTube videos out there and it's important for you to try. 13:29.440 --> 13:35.060 Eat a balanced diet and just be cognizant of what you're putting into your body. 13:35.060 --> 13:41.540 For example, usually when we're stressed out, we crave salty, sugary foods. 13:41.540 --> 13:45.440 So just be aware if you're taking in more salty, sugary foods. 13:45.440 --> 13:51.820 That might be one of those things you want to try to avoid, especially before bed, because that's not going to help you sleep. 13:52.400 --> 13:55.520 So I do recommend eating a balanced diet. 13:55.520 --> 14:00.360 You know, be healthy, treat your body well because your body will reward you in return. 14:00.980 --> 14:02.600 Practice good sleep habits. 14:02.600 --> 14:05.140 I understand insomnia is a big deal right now. 14:05.140 --> 14:18.040 And I know the first few months of the pandemic, when it started becoming a real situation, I was struggling to sleep because all I was thinking about was, am I going to give this to my parents? 14:18.040 --> 14:20.920 And I'm going to be responsible for their death. 14:20.920 --> 14:25.400 And that was really hard to try to sleep through the night. 14:25.400 --> 14:27.740 So I do understand that. 14:28.080 --> 14:31.040 And there are some examples that I will provide for you. 14:31.040 --> 14:36.240 Not examples, but things that you can practice to try to get better sleep. 14:36.680 --> 14:38.540 And lastly, ask for help. 14:38.540 --> 14:41.380 That's never been a problem, especially in our community. 14:41.380 --> 14:45.660 All you have to basically do is tweet and tag and people will respond. 14:45.960 --> 14:47.980 We're pretty good on that. 14:49.740 --> 14:52.220 But let's first dive into how to prevent. 14:52.400 --> 14:53.400 So self-awareness. 14:53.400 --> 14:57.020 Remember, you have to be aware that you're in burnout. 14:57.020 --> 15:06.820 And many of us, if it's our first time, we don't know that we're burned out until maybe after this talk you realize, oh my god, I've been burned out for such a long time. 15:06.920 --> 15:08.280 I had no idea. 15:08.280 --> 15:10.180 This makes so much sense. 15:10.180 --> 15:12.000 And that is a possibility . 15:12.000 --> 15:18.540 I didn't really know about burnout until like a year or two ago, but I definitely dealt with it in the past. 15:19.300 --> 15:23.120 So being aware that you're going through it is going to be really important for you. 15:23.180 --> 15:25.300 So how do you know whether or not you're burned out? 15:25.300 --> 15:27.200 Remember those examples I gave you? 15:27.200 --> 15:28.300 Those would be good guides. 15:28.300 --> 15:31.920 For example, no matter how much sleep you get, you just still feel tired. 15:32.260 --> 15:35.960 You feel like you have no passion or drive at work. 15:35.960 --> 15:37.000 You feel overwhelmed. 15:37.000 --> 15:40.300 You can easily get angry or sad and agitated. 15:40.400 --> 15:43.240 The general feeling of feeling like you're stuck. 15:43.540 --> 15:45.580 These are all those signs. 15:45.580 --> 15:51.660 Being very anxious about every day when it comes to work and logging in. 15:51.700 --> 15:56.420 That's another sign where it used to take you like a few minutes to respond to an email. 15:56.420 --> 15:59.720 Now it takes you much longer or you just don't want to respond. 15:59.740 --> 16:00.960 That's a sign. 16:01.000 --> 16:03.580 So these are signs to recall those. 16:03.580 --> 16:09.300 Now it's also important that when you're dealing with burnout is to remind yourself of things that are positive. 16:09.300 --> 16:17.020 Even if you're going through a terrible time, there should be at least three things that you're thankful for every single day. 16:17.060 --> 16:24.280 So I do recommend that when you wake up, think of three things that make you happy, that you're thankful for. 16:24.720 --> 16:30.080 And then before going to sleep, give three things again that you're thankful for and change it up the list. 16:30.080 --> 16:32.480 And if you don't want to do it like twice, it is still cool. 16:32.480 --> 16:33.780 You could just do it once a day. 16:33.780 --> 16:42.140 But it's there to remind you that there are some things to be happy about in the middle of an extremely stressful time. 16:43.960 --> 16:48.020 But also having self-awareness, it's really good is to journal it. 16:48.020 --> 16:51.860 So I have a journal or diary, whatever you want to call it. 16:51.860 --> 16:53.120 I write in it. 16:53.160 --> 16:56.960 I try to do it at least once a week. 16:56.980 --> 16:59.740 And what I do is that I write by hand. 16:59.740 --> 17:02.900 And I do recommend if you can, write by hand. 17:03.100 --> 17:10.520 There's something about it that's really... I don't know the quite good word for it, but it's very therapeutic. 17:11.120 --> 17:19.360 There's something about releasing your hand and being able to write whatever that's coming into your head and like deep down inside. 17:19.360 --> 17:30.080 So the thing is, journaling is really good because after you write in your journal, go back to other times that you wrote in there and try to see if there's any patterns. 17:30.460 --> 17:40.100 So patterns such as like using a term trapped multiple times or feeling overwhelmed or whatnot. 17:40.100 --> 17:48.880 You want to keep track of the patterns that you're seeing because once you see the pattern, recognize the pattern, then you're able to start working at fixing it. 17:49.220 --> 17:51.500 So it's really important to journal, write it down. 17:51.500 --> 17:58.440 It helps bring that self-awareness also to know what's going deep down inside that you are not aware of because we're constantly distracted, right? 17:58.440 --> 18:03.320 So it's very hard to like basically know what's going on with you sometimes. 18:04.700 --> 18:11.000 And so you guys also know that I'm one of those people that I hate my devices at the end of the day. 18:11.280 --> 18:13.640 I don't recommend throwing it on the ground. 18:13.640 --> 18:20.380 There are definitely times where I read something on Twitter and I'm just like, are you kidding me? 18:20.640 --> 18:23.860 And yes, there are times where I'm like, I'm going to throw my phone on the ground. 18:23.860 --> 18:28.440 But at the same time, I'm like, yeah, that's going to cost me some money that I don't want to use. 18:29.060 --> 18:38.880 But what I mean by, you know, you're breaking from your phones, your devices in general, let me take a break. 18:39.000 --> 18:42.080 I do this thing called a device detox. 18:42.080 --> 18:45.560 And I know that sounds very goop or goopish, I guess. 18:45.560 --> 18:51.680 But the thing is to know is to turn off your devices, get off of social media at least once a week. 18:51.820 --> 19:01.640 That means pick one day of a week that you take at least, I would say, four hours and beyond to just be unplugged. 19:01.640 --> 19:09.540 Meaning you're far away, your phones are off, your computer's off, basically take the time to do something new or learn something new. 19:09.540 --> 19:14.940 But the thing is, it's really important is to get one day per week where you don't do anything InfoSec related. 19:14.940 --> 19:18.660 I know, but Chloe, InfoSec is a lifestyle. 19:18.820 --> 19:19.480 I agree. 19:19.480 --> 19:22.300 It definitely is, but it will get you burned out. 19:22.300 --> 19:32.980 So it's really important to take one day off so you can readjust and be there more in your personal life because you have a life outside of InfoSec too, believe it or not. 19:33.240 --> 19:37.780 So do the things that make you happy and you enjoy. 19:37.820 --> 19:43.440 But it's really important is to take a break from your devices, take a day away. 19:43.440 --> 19:51.960 Now, if you do, make sure that you message your loved ones letting them know you're going to be offline during these hours so they don't worry and stress out. 19:52.340 --> 19:56.220 But I do recommend doing this for preventative reasons. 19:56.220 --> 20:00.980 I do take one day per week off from all devices and social media. 20:01.680 --> 20:05.900 And if I can't do a full day, at least try six hours for one of the days. 20:06.020 --> 20:14.400 So just know that it's really good because you get to have that get really in touch with your self-awareness and sense. 20:16.040 --> 20:17.300 Write it down. 20:17.300 --> 20:20.100 So the other thing that I do is I keep a to-do list. 20:20.100 --> 20:22.940 So this to-do list goes everywhere with me. 20:22.940 --> 20:25.040 And yes, everywhere in my apartment. 20:25.480 --> 20:30.880 But the thing is that what you want to do is have it near you in your bed. 20:30.880 --> 20:33.060 That's going to be really important for you. 20:33.060 --> 20:36.520 And also to take it everywhere with you. 20:36.520 --> 20:49.720 So the reason I say take it to by your bed, have next to your bed is because in the middle of night or right when you're closing your eyes, going into nice sleep, suddenly this thing goes popping up. 20:49.720 --> 20:52.740 And you're like, I forgot to send that email. 20:53.240 --> 20:55.300 Oh god, I forgot to do that thing. 20:55.440 --> 20:56.580 Oh, I need to send that email. 20:56.580 --> 20:58.120 Wish I had written that email. 20:58.200 --> 20:59.860 And you keep thinking about it. 20:59.860 --> 21:02.900 And then you're not going to fall asleep because now you're thinking of all these things. 21:02.900 --> 21:05.520 And you might wake up early in the morning thinking you have to do all these things. 21:05.520 --> 21:09.880 The thing is, if you want better sleep, write it down. 21:09.900 --> 21:20.420 For some reason, it feels like as if you're taking whatever amount of space that's now clogged by all the tasks that you have to do and pulling it right out. 21:20.420 --> 21:24.380 Kind of like a Harry Potter situation in a sense. 21:24.380 --> 21:29.920 With Dumbledore, you know when he takes his wand and he takes his memories out. 21:29.920 --> 21:31.840 Anyway, it's like that. 21:31.840 --> 21:36.640 It's where you free up your mind and you have more space to think and do other things. 21:36.640 --> 21:38.720 So having a to-do list is really good. 21:38.720 --> 21:40.140 It'll help you get better sleep. 21:40.140 --> 21:48.560 And if you're wondering, well, Chloe, I'm going to feel really anxious putting together this list because it's going to remind me of all the things I need to do and it's going to stress me out. 21:48.560 --> 21:50.620 I'm going to have an anxiety or a panic attack. 21:50.620 --> 21:52.000 I'm pretty sure of it. 21:52.640 --> 21:54.660 Let me just let you know one thing. 21:55.020 --> 21:58.020 When I first did it, I had the exact same belief. 21:58.020 --> 21:59.800 I'm someone who deals with anxiety. 21:59.800 --> 22:05.040 But what I did was that when I filled it up, it was five pages long. 22:05.040 --> 22:06.200 Now it's one page long. 22:06.200 --> 22:08.940 But it was five pages long. 22:09.080 --> 22:17.380 It made me realize how many things that I am doing and made me take a step back to realize I need to start telling people no. 22:18.300 --> 22:25.020 So knowing how much weight you're carrying will also help you address why you're feeling burned out. 22:25.020 --> 22:31.940 And then try to think of ways how to reduce that amount of work and also to get those projects off your plate. 22:31.940 --> 22:35.380 If that means having a conversation with a manager, that means having a conversation with a manager. 22:35.380 --> 22:37.080 But it's important to do that. 22:38.160 --> 22:39.780 Now talking about managers. 22:39.780 --> 22:43.560 Now, if you are a manager, we need to talk. 22:43.660 --> 22:46.100 You need to be there for your team members. 22:46.100 --> 22:48.200 You need to invest in your team members. 22:48.200 --> 22:51.080 That means you need to give them time off. 22:51.080 --> 22:53.900 I highly recommend doing a mental health day. 22:53.900 --> 23:01.300 For example, every month you give a day off to your employees and please pick a Friday or Monday because we love three-day weekends. 23:01.840 --> 23:04.780 And basically use that time for them to do whatever they want. 23:04.780 --> 23:11.160 If it means going through old projects, if that means doing any of those things, do it. 23:11.160 --> 23:11.920 Give it to them. 23:11.920 --> 23:12.720 They deserve it. 23:12.720 --> 23:13.840 Especially right now. 23:13.840 --> 23:17.300 We all could use a break and an extra holiday every month, right? 23:17.520 --> 23:19.240 So I do recommend that. 23:19.240 --> 23:30.800 The other thing is to have make sure you have something in place where every week your entire security team gets one day heads down. 23:30.800 --> 23:34.980 I know it sounds really weird, but it basically means no meetings day. 23:34.980 --> 23:41.140 So have one day per week where no one can give or set any meetings for any of your members. 23:41.320 --> 23:51.260 And just have that week every week where it is blocked for them to be able to catch up on emails or to be able to do anything that they need to do to catch up. 23:51.260 --> 23:54.300 This will help them be able to breathe and relax. 23:54.440 --> 24:00.800 Now the other thing that you should also do is make sure you schedule one-on-ones with your employees. 24:00.800 --> 24:02.340 And there's a reason for that. 24:02.340 --> 24:06.580 It could be anywhere from like 15 minutes to 20 minutes or whatnot. 24:06.580 --> 24:14.600 But making sure that you're both going through what projects are that person's working on and what to prioritize is going to help them too. 24:14.600 --> 24:19.760 They need to know what to prioritize and you are there to help coach them through that. 24:19.760 --> 24:27.740 So I really do recommend that because then it allows them to be able to reduce the amount of stress and pressure that is on them. 24:28.180 --> 24:34.820 Also if any of your team members go to you saying I need to take time off, give it to them. 24:34.820 --> 24:36.100 They need it. 24:36.220 --> 24:43.920 Chances are we could all use a vacation and to recharge our batteries. 24:44.040 --> 24:54.080 So if someone comes up to you and saying hey I really need to take some time off to get back to my normalcy, you should allow that. 24:54.200 --> 25:00.160 And also because a good manager invests in their people and see them go beyond them. 25:00.160 --> 25:02.660 So do whatever you can to do that too. 25:03.900 --> 25:05.980 All right, next one. 25:05.980 --> 25:06.840 How to bounce back. 25:06.840 --> 25:10.340 So we went over how to prevent burnout, right? 25:10.340 --> 25:13.220 So those are all those things that you can do. 25:13.220 --> 25:17.160 Now we're going to talk about what to do if you're already burned out. 25:17.300 --> 25:19.720 Congratulations, it sucks, doesn't it? 25:19.720 --> 25:22.000 So we're going to talk about how to bounce back. 25:22.280 --> 25:24.940 So first thing first, you need to take a break. 25:24.940 --> 25:29.280 I'm sorry to tell you, but there is no way you're going to recover unless you take time off. 25:29.280 --> 25:31.980 You need at least three business days off. 25:31.980 --> 25:34.020 And if you're like okay, so three-day weekend. 25:34.020 --> 25:36.060 No, that's not three business days. 25:36.060 --> 25:40.160 What I mean is five days off in return, right? 25:40.160 --> 25:45.020 So have the full weekend and three business days. 25:45.020 --> 25:46.380 That's five days. 25:46.440 --> 25:48.640 You need to take at least that amount. 25:48.640 --> 25:58.300 Now depending how bad your burnout is and how long it's been since you took a break , I highly recommend you taking up to a week or two off if you can. 25:58.300 --> 25:59.900 If not two weeks, that's okay. 25:59.900 --> 26:01.140 Just do one week. 26:01.140 --> 26:08.160 Now if you're stressed out about taking a break like I did, that's why I didn't take a break for two and a half years. 26:08.160 --> 26:17.140 I was worried that I was going to basically push all my team members more work on their plate and I didn't feel like that was fair to them. 26:17.340 --> 26:23.140 Now the important thing to note is that when you're burned out, chances are you are going to be missing deadlines. 26:23.140 --> 26:26.520 You're not going to be up to par with your team. 26:26.700 --> 26:32.220 Your team members are already carrying extra weight that you may not even know about because you're burned out. 26:32.220 --> 26:37.200 Because you're not 100% there or present because you can't because you're burned out. 26:37.320 --> 26:41.460 So it's really important for you to take the time off and have that conversation with your manager. 26:42.000 --> 26:54.960 Now if you're wondering how do I have that conversation with a manager, what you do is you schedule your one-on-one or hopefully you have a good manager who does one-on-ones with you and tell them I need to take some days off to recharge my batteries. 26:54.960 --> 27:04.340 I'm feeling burned out and overwhelmed and I just these are the the weeks that I have in mind and I need to do it probably sooner the better. 27:05.920 --> 27:21.660 And after you have that conversation with your manager, what you want to do is send an email to them after your conversation basically reminding them that you had that conversation and that you're burned out and all that stuff. 27:21.660 --> 27:22.820 Send it to them. 27:22.820 --> 27:23.780 Keep a paper trail. 27:23.780 --> 27:29.000 That paper trail is going to help you in your life most likely if it's needed. 27:29.160 --> 27:41.680 I've learned one thing in my career which is always keep a paper trail because the thing is is that you need to protect yourself and it also reduces the stress of am I going to lose my job for trying to take some time off. 27:41.680 --> 27:43.140 You shouldn't worry about that. 27:43.140 --> 27:44.740 Now you have a record of it. 27:44.820 --> 27:45.620 So keep that. 27:45.620 --> 27:54.780 Also forward that email to your personal email as well so you have a copy of it as well in a personal account in case if you don't have your work account anymore. 27:54.880 --> 28:00.360 This is just really good practice overall and I hate that we have to do that in this world but we do. 28:00.580 --> 28:01.780 Just be safe. 28:02.340 --> 28:12.960 Now when you take your time off, it's really important is that for your out of office message for it to be two days later than the date that you return. 28:12.960 --> 28:24.980 For example, if you're coming back on the 14th, say you're coming back on the 16th and the reason for that it gives you two days of responding to any emails in your inbox and to get through your flooded inbox. 28:25.400 --> 28:35.940 When I returned I had over a thousand emails and I'm so glad that I blocked those two days off just to respond to all those emails, which is my other point. 28:35.940 --> 28:41.980 Also make sure that you block one to two days when you get back or before you get back that is. 28:42.260 --> 28:55.080 Just block the entire day for no meeting so then you're able to be on top of everything that you're able to know what's happening and you can respond to all your emails so you can get back to your zero inbox when you start. 28:55.080 --> 28:57.840 This is going to help you right away. 28:57.840 --> 29:19.300 Now the other thing to note about it is make sure that you tell your colleagues that if they need anything from you to keep you cc'd and keep you updated via emails not through slack or or any other communication channels because this is a way for you know one place to look and one place to learn everything. 29:19.500 --> 29:27.940 When you have multiple different channels of communication this could be really hard on you when you get back and it can be very stressful and chances are things are going to get lost. 29:27.940 --> 29:35.340 So please remind them by contacting you via email and to seeing you during the time that you're gone so you're aware when you get back. 29:36.340 --> 29:43.940 Also having a project management type of platform is going to be really good so then you're also knowing what tasks that you're assigned to. 29:44.120 --> 30:08.100 Now the one thing that I do recommend also is if you're a manager and you're taking your time off when you do come back it's really important to also message all your the people that report to you and let them know like you're back and is there anything that is highly important that you need to prioritize within the first 24 or 48 hours of returning from work. 30:08.420 --> 30:13.320 Let them know see what they say and then you know find the time to do so. 30:13.320 --> 30:28.540 Just remember that and also yes right before you take your vacation chances are you are definitely gonna need you're gonna be very busy the week before so expect to be pulling in more hours that week because of taking time off. 30:28.540 --> 30:38.300 I hope that answers all your questions about taking off because chances are I know many of you were like I'm kind of stressed out about doing that but I need to do it probably so there you go. 30:38.320 --> 30:43.900 Remember three business days is the minimum for taking time off to recharge your batteries. 30:45.240 --> 30:53.100 Now remember that to-do list I was telling you about it's so important for you also to be able to learn how to say no. 30:53.100 --> 30:56.640 Chances are you've taken on a little too much than you can chew. 30:56.740 --> 31:09.360 I'm one of those people that's like oh another project oh I need to do that that'd be so cool that's a great idea go running with it and the next thing I know is I didn't really think of all the hours it's going to take. 31:09.360 --> 31:32.360 So the thing is it's okay but we learn right we learn from our mistakes so it's it's good to learn when to say no when and that's the hardest thing to do is especially when there's these great opportunities that come your way but it takes a lot of your hours and you just don't have it in you and you really need to find that work and personalized balance I really recommend trying to learn to say no. 31:32.540 --> 31:57.580 Now if you're someone who's underrepresented on your team I hate to break this to you chances are you're gonna feel a little bit more burned out a little bit faster than maybe your peers and the reason for that is because chances are you're constantly having to prove over and over and over you deserve and you belong where you are and that's going to be hard on you because chances are they also will give you extra work. 31:57.580 --> 32:45.260 I know by being a woman myself I kept getting work that would be like an assistant or secretary and it would annoy me so much but I would take it on anyway just to prove that I belong to be there and that's not my current job this is at a previous one and so it's really hard is to learn how to say no and I know it's scary to say no because you're worried your job is online especially in the middle of an economic situation too at this time but just please note that you also need to care about yourself and you should be working at a company and have a manager that supports you and invests in you and wants to you know basically do whatever they can to be there for you and if you don't have that I think it's time for you to look elsewhere There's plenty of companies out there that do that. 32:46.540 --> 33:02.220 Also, even if you're not someone who's underrepresented on your team, if you are one of those people that basically gets your work done a lot faster than most of your peers, or you're one of the top performers on the team, chances are you're going to be given more assignments, 33:02.220 --> 33:03.120 more tasks. 33:03.120 --> 33:04.980 You're going to wear multiple hats. 33:05.120 --> 33:08.500 So you're going to be feeling burned out a lot faster, too. 33:08.600 --> 33:12.040 So just keep that in mind on that front. 33:12.040 --> 33:16.860 So it's really important for you in particular to also learn how to say no. 33:16.860 --> 33:21.080 If it's not part of your job, you don't need to do it. 33:21.080 --> 33:22.780 I hate to remind you. 33:22.780 --> 33:28.840 And of course, yes, if other people on your team need the work and you're not burned out, yes, you should help them. 33:28.840 --> 33:29.640 You should support them. 33:29.640 --> 33:31.360 That is how team works. 33:31.360 --> 33:33.400 So teamwork, you got to have it. 33:33.400 --> 33:34.620 You got to work together. 33:34.760 --> 33:39.620 And helping each other out while you're all going through burnout at some point is going to be really important. 33:39.620 --> 33:45.300 But learn to say no if you're burned out and they're assigning tasks to you that has nothing to do with your job. 33:45.820 --> 33:47.240 Learn to say no. 33:48.760 --> 33:52.580 Now remember when I said, you know, you need to take care of yourself. 33:52.960 --> 33:57.920 The reason you're burned out is because you're not also investing in yourself. 33:58.320 --> 34:04.660 And I hate to bring that forward to you, but it is one of those things that you need to know about. 34:05.000 --> 34:07.280 Now stress is one thing. 34:07.340 --> 34:15.960 Stress is like, oh, I'll feel better if I drink that glass of wine or I'll feel better if I take a bubble bath or any of those kind of things. 34:17.000 --> 34:29.240 But burnout is I can drink all the wine and I can take all the baths, but I would still not feel back to normal or feel like I'm 100% balanced. 34:29.480 --> 34:33.680 And so that in itself is letting you know that you've taken on too many things. 34:33.680 --> 34:35.440 And this might be in your personal life. 34:35.440 --> 34:36.540 This might be in your work life. 34:36.540 --> 34:38.040 It might be a mix of the two. 34:38.040 --> 34:47.960 But it's really important to note is that even though we're trying to be there for one another, it's very hard to do that if us, we're not doing well ourselves. 34:48.320 --> 34:57.480 So that's why it's important to know that you need to invest in yourself, love yourself and take care of yourself, treat yourself right. 34:57.960 --> 35:05.780 And that's the important thing is that if you're working somewhere where they don't appreciate you, they don't want to invest in you. 35:06.600 --> 35:08.740 That's not good for you. 35:08.740 --> 35:12.220 At the end of the day, you shouldn't feel like that. 35:12.220 --> 35:15.340 And I'm so sorry that you're going through that if you are. 35:15.340 --> 35:17.900 I have been there and it's terrible. 35:17.980 --> 35:21.820 Because all you think about is do am I worthy? 35:21.880 --> 35:26.280 And that's the part because you feel trapped and you feel like you're worthless. 35:27.120 --> 35:30.360 And I just want to let you guys know that you are totally worthy. 35:30.700 --> 35:32.460 And you shouldn't feel trapped. 35:32.460 --> 35:37.720 And if you're looking for something, like a new gig, a place where they'll treat you better. 35:38.380 --> 35:40.980 Heck, DEF CON is here. 35:41.040 --> 35:45.500 And there are people here that work at companies and they're hiring right now. 35:45.500 --> 35:47.480 So let it be known. 35:47.500 --> 35:50.200 So start looking for work elsewhere. 35:50.260 --> 35:53.700 Keep the job that you have and just keep looking. 35:53.860 --> 36:01.200 And because don't be compliant when it comes to you and your well-being. 36:01.200 --> 36:05.980 You have to take care of yourself because who's going to take care of you at the end of the day? 36:05.980 --> 36:07.660 And that's the hardest thing. 36:08.420 --> 36:12.100 So remember, when you feel overwhelmed, do a device detox. 36:12.100 --> 36:15.360 When you feel overwhelmed, invest in yourself. 36:15.360 --> 36:17.800 When you feel overwhelmed, ask for help. 36:17.880 --> 36:19.340 Please ask for help. 36:20.000 --> 36:21.460 We're here for you. 36:21.460 --> 36:23.080 The community is here for you. 36:23.080 --> 36:26.300 I wouldn't be where I am if it wasn't for the community. 36:26.300 --> 36:28.040 So please remember that. 36:28.420 --> 36:30.720 When you feel overwhelmed, write it down. 36:30.880 --> 36:31.560 Do journaling. 36:31.560 --> 36:32.740 Do diary writing. 36:32.740 --> 36:33.840 Whatever you want to call it. 36:33.840 --> 36:34.960 Do a to-do list. 36:34.960 --> 36:36.120 Write it down. 36:36.120 --> 36:38.220 When you feel overwhelmed, take a break. 36:38.220 --> 36:43.540 Remember, take one day per week away from your devices and also from InfoSec. 36:43.540 --> 36:47.980 And that could be, you know, four hours plus, or it could be a whole complete day. 36:48.300 --> 36:54.100 Or if you're already burnout, please make sure that you take off at least three business days. 36:55.060 --> 36:57.280 When you feel overwhelmed, put yourself first. 36:57.280 --> 37:04.520 Remember, you have to put yourself first because you cannot be there for another person if you're not a hundred percent there. 37:04.520 --> 37:07.540 It's unfair to the person and it's unfair to you. 37:07.540 --> 37:10.600 When you feel overwhelmed, know you're not alone. 37:11.260 --> 37:23.760 We've, you, I understand being overwhelmed is a huge deal for you and I know that it can feel very isolating and you feel trapped and alone, but I want you to know you are not alone. 37:23.760 --> 37:26.660 There are people in this community that have your back. 37:26.660 --> 37:32.960 They're the ones that are going to be there to push you forward when you're feeling like you can't keep moving. 37:33.020 --> 37:36.380 All you have to do is ask and seek it. 37:36.400 --> 37:40.660 And if you don't know where to go first, my DMs are open. 37:40.820 --> 37:46.460 And honestly, there's also this group called Mental Health Hackers and they're a great group too. 37:46.720 --> 37:51.720 There's so many great organizations out there that support people in the InfoSec community. 37:51.720 --> 37:56.440 So you should never feel alone or isolated because we're all here for you. 37:57.320 --> 38:04.220 So most importantly, I hope you get from this talk, which is always ask the question, am I balancing my work and personal life? 38:04.220 --> 38:07.280 If not, take the steps to fix it now. 38:07.280 --> 38:14.160 And now you know how to do that because you know how to prevent and you know how to get back to normal. 38:14.160 --> 38:20.120 And like I said, I took one week off and I got way better and it felt way better. 38:20.500 --> 38:22.480 So just note that. 38:22.480 --> 38:24.200 Oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention this. 38:24.200 --> 38:28.240 If you are taking time off, don't be on your devices. 38:28.240 --> 38:29.960 Don't be on social media. 38:30.340 --> 38:35.740 Take time off from InfoSec because that's also part of taking the break and recharging your batteries. 38:35.740 --> 38:36.460 Okay. 38:37.580 --> 38:45.460 And lastly, thank you guys over at Recon Village for having me and thank you guys for existing and I hope you enjoy the rest of your DEF CON. 38:45.460 --> 38:49.660 And if you need anything, have any questions, feel free to ask me. 38:49.700 --> 38:53.100 Also, if you feel like you want to ask more privately, feel free to DM me. 38:53.100 --> 38:58.120 I am on Discord and I hope you guys have a wonderful DEF CON and please stay safe. 38:58.120 --> 39:03.980 I know that you got this and I believe in you and please don't ever feel alone while you're dealing with burnout. 39:04.720 --> 39:06.660 So that's all I want to say. 39:06.660 --> 39:13.160 Thank you guys again and stay safe and I'll catch you guys, I hope, later and hopefully in person next year. 39:13.780 --> 39:15.220 But yeah, take care now. 39:15.220 --> 39:16.320 Bye-bye everyone!