WEBVTT 00:08.770 --> 00:10.010 Hello, everybody. 00:10.010 --> 00:13.290 Welcome to DEF CON 30's DEF CON Groups VR. 00:13.910 --> 00:18.730 I'm your next presenter, X-Ray, and I'll be presenting how to start and run a group. 00:18.730 --> 00:25.410 So if you've ever wanted to start and run your own group, whether it's a DEF CON group or any other kind of group, we're going to give you the secret sauce. 00:25.630 --> 00:28.570 So let me get to my slides here and I'll be right back. 00:36.340 --> 00:37.060 Okay. 00:38.020 --> 00:39.400 Can you all hear me okay? 00:39.500 --> 00:40.300 I assume so. 00:40.300 --> 00:43.360 If you're in the back, raise your hand if you can't hear me. 00:43.360 --> 00:44.780 Yeah, that always works. 00:45.300 --> 00:45.540 Okay. 00:45.540 --> 00:47.020 My name is X-Ray. 00:48.440 --> 00:52.880 I run DEF CON Group DC404 in Atlanta, Georgia. 00:52.880 --> 00:54.960 I've been running that since 2013. 00:55.260 --> 00:58.420 I'm one of the co-founders of Atlanta Lock Sport. 00:58.460 --> 01:07.460 I've also been an affiliates director of the International Jugglers Association, which is in charge of all the affiliate chapters around the world, kind of like DEF CON groups for juggling. 01:07.720 --> 01:12.580 I've also been assistant director of the Tampa Jugglers Club down in Tampa Bay, Florida. 01:12.580 --> 01:14.320 Great club if you ever want to go there. 01:14.320 --> 01:16.780 I'm also a member of the Atlanta Jugglers Association. 01:16.780 --> 01:19.320 We hold an annual juggling festival. 01:19.320 --> 01:22.860 Now, you're probably wondering what has juggling got to do with DEF CON groups? 01:22.860 --> 01:28.400 Well, the secret sauce is all groups work the same because all groups have a common denominator. 01:28.400 --> 01:29.560 It's called people. 01:29.880 --> 01:34.920 So while working at Georgia Tech, I was head of cybersecurity for the College of Computing. 01:34.920 --> 01:41.100 I sponsored the student hacking and cybersecurity organization called Grayhat and their CTF team, the Mad Hatters. 01:41.360 --> 01:52.980 I'm also a regular presenter at security and hacking conferences and co-developer of Network King of the Hill CTF, which, by the way, is a fabulous way of getting your numbers up in your meetings is to host a CTF. 01:52.980 --> 01:56.300 So if any of you would like to learn how to do that, contact me on Discord. 01:56.300 --> 01:57.520 I'll be happy to walk you through it. 01:57.520 --> 01:58.800 It's quite simple. 01:59.420 --> 02:03.620 Network King of the Hill CTF is designed for a lazy administrator. 02:03.620 --> 02:07.260 As the original developer, that's exactly what he said about it. 02:07.260 --> 02:08.780 And it's really easy to set up. 02:08.860 --> 02:09.880 Thank you, Charmander. 02:09.940 --> 02:12.300 Charmander is one of the people I showed how to do it. 02:13.080 --> 02:16.480 And if you talk to him later, he'll tell you just how easy it was to do. 02:19.650 --> 02:25.210 Okay, so what we're going to cover in this presentation are the fundamental rules for any group. 02:25.210 --> 02:27.890 And these are things that apply regardless of the topic. 02:28.430 --> 02:31.370 One of the basic issues is who's in charge of the group. 02:31.370 --> 02:35.610 That's something that you have to understand in order to understand the dynamics of the group. 02:35.610 --> 02:39.970 Because if you don't handle that, it can cause a group to fall apart rather quickly. 02:40.290 --> 02:46.970 Another thing we'll discuss is why to meet, what you're meeting about, and how you figure out what that is, and who your target audience is. 02:47.130 --> 02:53.130 And one of the biggest problems that most groups face is finding a place to meet and ironing out that situation. 02:53.690 --> 02:58.770 Another issue you'll run into as you start putting a group together is what equipment you're going to use. 02:58.770 --> 03:00.550 Should I buy the equipment myself? 03:00.550 --> 03:01.930 Should the group own the equipment? 03:01.930 --> 03:03.270 Can we borrow the equipment? 03:03.270 --> 03:05.050 We'll talk about those issues. 03:05.130 --> 03:06.610 Do we do presentations? 03:06.610 --> 03:08.270 Some groups have presenters come in. 03:08.650 --> 03:13.570 DC404, every month we have a presenter come in and do presentations for us to the group. 03:14.530 --> 03:15.850 Hold on a second. 03:19.670 --> 03:21.370 Sorry, I had a spam call. 03:21.430 --> 03:23.670 You've got to love spammers, they're so persistent. 03:24.070 --> 03:28.390 So presentations, is your group going to have presentations or not? 03:28.390 --> 03:29.790 It's not required. 03:29.790 --> 03:31.070 Are they going to be formal? 03:31.070 --> 03:32.190 They don't have to be formal. 03:32.190 --> 03:33.570 We'll discuss all of that. 03:33.710 --> 03:36.110 Are there going to be any activities in your meetings? 03:36.110 --> 03:38.010 Those are things like, are you going to have a lockpick village? 03:38.010 --> 03:41.730 You're going to have capture the flag, soldering station for people who are desoldered. 03:41.730 --> 03:43.270 Those are some of those ideas. 03:43.390 --> 03:44.530 What about governance? 03:44.530 --> 03:50.570 This is one that people commonly want to know about is, should we be a 5013C? 03:50.570 --> 03:54.890 We'll get into that and what that entails and why you would or would not want to do that. 03:54.970 --> 03:57.950 And one of the biggest issues you're going to stumble across is money. 03:57.950 --> 04:00.010 What happens if we start getting donations? 04:00.010 --> 04:01.790 We have dues, we have things like that. 04:01.790 --> 04:02.930 How do we deal with money? 04:02.930 --> 04:04.230 We'll talk about that. 04:04.490 --> 04:09.890 Swag, that's things like t-shirts, cups, all those sorts of things with your logo on it. 04:09.890 --> 04:16.530 We'll talk about getting your logo, creating swag, how you can do that, ways you can do that. 04:16.670 --> 04:21.990 We'll also talk about advertising your group, where to advertise it and the most effective ways to advertise it. 04:21.990 --> 04:23.550 So let's see. 04:23.550 --> 04:25.950 Next slide here is fundamental rules. 04:25.950 --> 04:29.710 Now, these are rules that apply across all groups regardless. 04:30.030 --> 04:34.230 And one of them is the most important rule you could ever have in any group. 04:34.230 --> 04:36.870 And it's something that nobody ever expects. 04:37.150 --> 04:44.210 So one is you do not have to be the most skilled expert in the room, in the group to run it. 04:45.830 --> 04:48.230 But there are things you have to do to hold the group together. 04:48.230 --> 04:50.150 And that's the thing that's actually important. 04:50.150 --> 04:51.990 And you don't even have to be the best at that. 04:51.990 --> 04:55.570 You just have to show up and do the number one thing, and that's be consistent. 04:55.570 --> 04:58.450 I cannot stress being consistent enough. 04:58.690 --> 05:03.350 That means if you have a meeting space, you're the first one to get there, the last one to leave. 05:03.350 --> 05:10.510 You're going to have to get there early because there's going to be people who show up five minutes before the meeting time, no one's there, they leave. 05:11.390 --> 05:14.150 So if you're there, they'll stay. 05:15.090 --> 05:18.050 Or they'll show up and say, oh, I just wanted to know there's a meeting. 05:18.050 --> 05:20.570 I can't really come today, but I'll try back next time. 05:20.570 --> 05:23.590 So if they see that somebody is there, they'll show up again. 05:24.230 --> 05:29.290 They'll also show up five minutes after the event is over and say, oh, you guys are still, you guys are really here. 05:29.290 --> 05:31.710 Oh, I didn't know if you'd really be here. 05:31.710 --> 05:33.110 And I waited to the last minute. 05:33.110 --> 05:34.370 I'm sorry I'm late. 05:34.430 --> 05:36.970 And you're there and you talk to them. 05:37.210 --> 05:38.690 Be consistent. 05:39.270 --> 05:43.890 If no one shows up to the meeting, fine, watch Netflix on your phone. 05:43.950 --> 05:46.990 But be consistent, show up early, leave late. 05:46.990 --> 05:54.870 If you can't make it, absolutely make sure somebody is there to cover for you or notify everybody that you're not going to be able to make it. 05:55.010 --> 06:00.470 But if you can at all help it, always be there or make sure somebody is there. 06:00.470 --> 06:04.890 Being consistent is the absolute number one rule, hands down. 06:05.130 --> 06:08.310 The other thing is when you're starting a group, you have to be patient. 06:08.310 --> 06:10.330 It doesn't happen overnight. 06:11.230 --> 06:19.330 Now to quote something out of a movie we've probably all seen, the code is more of what you'd call guidelines than actual rules. 06:19.390 --> 06:21.850 So that means none of this is hard and fast. 06:22.030 --> 06:27.630 It's a matter of who shows up, how compliant they are as far as showing up. 06:27.630 --> 06:29.890 Some people won't show up on time. 06:29.890 --> 06:31.870 You can set them on fire, they won't show up on time. 06:31.870 --> 06:36.510 It depends on what kind of group you get as to how hard and fast you have to hold these basic rules. 06:36.510 --> 06:38.510 But they're true in any group. 06:38.530 --> 06:40.710 Number one, always remember, be consistent. 06:41.750 --> 06:43.650 Now the second one is who's in charge. 06:43.650 --> 06:46.150 Since you started the group, you think you're in charge. 06:46.150 --> 06:47.330 Yeah, that's not true. 06:47.750 --> 06:49.730 What I'm going to cover next are the basics. 06:49.730 --> 06:55.350 I'll get into governance of the group, which is not the same thing as who is in charge later in the talk. 06:55.590 --> 06:57.550 The group is owned by the members. 06:57.550 --> 06:59.810 It's not by the person running the group. 07:00.970 --> 07:03.890 That's a hard thing to swallow, but that's the way it is. 07:03.890 --> 07:05.970 The purpose of the group is for the group. 07:05.970 --> 07:07.330 It's not for me. 07:07.430 --> 07:17.070 So although I kind of facilitate DC404, I see myself as more of a host and a servant than I do as somebody who's running the group, because it's not my group. 07:18.450 --> 07:23.850 If you make changes to what the group is going to do or how you're going to do things, you do that through consensus. 07:23.850 --> 07:25.770 You have to get everybody's input. 07:25.990 --> 07:31.670 Now, in the end, people are going to look at you to make the final decision. 07:31.670 --> 07:33.970 That's just the way human nature works. 07:34.070 --> 07:40.050 They'll make what they want known, and then you can say, well, the consensus of the group seems to be this. 07:40.050 --> 07:45.170 You all concur, and they'll say, yeah, some will answer, some won't, and then that becomes the decision. 07:45.410 --> 07:47.310 But decisions are not set in stone. 07:47.310 --> 07:49.150 You can always change something. 07:49.230 --> 07:50.870 The whole idea is we're hackers. 07:50.870 --> 07:51.630 We try things. 07:51.630 --> 07:52.970 The things that work, we keep. 07:52.970 --> 07:54.990 The things that don't work, we get rid of. 07:55.190 --> 07:57.330 Feel free to throw away things that don't work. 07:57.330 --> 07:58.130 It's okay. 07:58.910 --> 08:07.030 Now, one thing that is really hard to swallow, and this happens from time to time, is you're going to start a group that has a particular culture to it. 08:07.370 --> 08:12.310 And that group's culture will change and go in a direction that you're not willing to follow. 08:12.430 --> 08:26.430 And when that happens, you're just going to have to gracefully bow out, leave it to somebody else to run, do a nice turnover, be friendly, and do a nice turnover, turn the group over to somebody else, and go start another group or join a different group. 08:26.430 --> 08:27.650 That happens occasionally. 08:27.650 --> 08:30.130 It's not often, but it does happen. 08:30.130 --> 08:32.310 So don't be surprised if it does. 08:32.350 --> 08:33.730 It's not the end of the world. 08:33.730 --> 08:35.790 If you started one group, you can start another. 08:35.790 --> 08:37.370 It's not that big a deal. 08:38.310 --> 08:40.850 Okay, now the next thing is why meet? 08:41.710 --> 08:45.890 Well, the reason you meet is very simple. 08:46.050 --> 08:48.490 We want to talk to other people, just like we're here. 08:48.490 --> 08:52.330 We want to talk and hang out with other people who are like-minded into similar things. 08:52.330 --> 08:55.350 When we say like-minded, hacking covers a lot of things. 08:55.430 --> 09:04.610 Hacking is actually the art of discovering what something is capable of that the designer did not intend, and determining whether that's helping me or hurting me. 09:04.610 --> 09:08.350 And if it's hurting me, I have to defend against it, or help others defend against it. 09:08.350 --> 09:11.170 And if it's help, well, then we're going to tell everybody. 09:11.230 --> 09:23.990 Now, as an example of that, if there's anybody here, because we allow all skill levels at DEF CON meetings, if anybody here is new and doesn't think that they're a hacker, I beg to differ, because you've probably opened a can of paint using a screwdriver. 09:24.810 --> 09:27.090 That's not the intended purpose of a screwdriver. 09:27.090 --> 09:31.090 They actually make a tool specifically for opening cans of paint. 09:31.090 --> 09:33.030 You can get it at Home Depot and Lowe's. 09:33.310 --> 09:34.270 But you don't have one. 09:34.270 --> 09:36.050 You use a screwdriver like the rest of us. 09:36.050 --> 09:37.130 That's hacking. 09:37.190 --> 09:49.370 Hacking is a mindset that applies to all disciplines, from golf, to playing in a concert, to hacking networks and security systems, and social engineering, which we were talking about earlier. 09:49.550 --> 09:55.190 So one of the key things, as the person who's hosting the group, is be approachable. 09:55.190 --> 09:58.350 A lot people are going to see about the group online. 09:58.350 --> 10:01.110 And when they get there, they're going to want to talk to you. 10:01.530 --> 10:03.530 So be available and talk to people. 10:03.570 --> 10:04.930 Be friendly. 10:05.410 --> 10:06.690 Engage with them. 10:06.690 --> 10:11.510 If you ask them what they're interested in and point out other people in the room who might be interested. 10:11.510 --> 10:20.070 Also point out, and this is so important, that all the people are at the meeting because they want to talk to other people. 10:20.070 --> 10:26.910 So they should not feel bashful or shy about just walking up to a table, sitting down, and just start talking to people. 10:26.910 --> 10:28.090 It's okay. 10:28.190 --> 10:29.330 That's what we're there for. 10:29.330 --> 10:32.310 But people forget that and assume that they're not good enough. 10:32.310 --> 10:33.210 They're not skilled enough. 10:33.210 --> 10:34.450 I'm a noob. 10:34.590 --> 10:36.150 Yeah, well, I got to break it to you. 10:36.150 --> 10:39.290 I've been doing this since the dawn of the abacus. 10:39.390 --> 10:43.750 And no matter whose backyard I go into, I'm an idiot. 10:44.550 --> 10:48.350 So no matter where you go, there's always something you don't know. 10:48.350 --> 10:50.530 So that's just the way it is. 10:50.990 --> 11:00.110 And explain to them that just being a noob means they're a noob in my area of expertise, or that guy's area of expertise, but in their area of expertise, I'm an idiot. 11:00.190 --> 11:01.470 Just remind them of that. 11:02.490 --> 11:04.190 So be excited. 11:04.190 --> 11:10.510 Now, when I say excited, I don't mean you're jumping around like a crazy person at a kid's party. 11:10.510 --> 11:12.610 Okay, that's not what I mean by be excited. 11:13.550 --> 11:17.750 You show your excitement by your enthusiasm for the subject you're talking about. 11:17.750 --> 11:19.350 You don't even have to talk fast. 11:19.350 --> 11:20.750 You don't have to talk excitedly. 11:20.750 --> 11:22.370 You don't have to wave your hands around. 11:22.890 --> 11:30.890 But you'll find that that excitement translates to others, and they like being around excited people. 11:30.890 --> 11:35.890 And more importantly, get them excited about what they're excited about, not necessarily what you're excited about. 11:35.890 --> 11:39.150 That's one of the other key factors of getting a group to work. 11:39.310 --> 11:43.530 Encourage people to ask the group questions for help. 11:43.630 --> 11:54.530 So for instance, if somebody's got a project they're working on, or something they're working on, they're stuck, they don't know where to go, or, hey, I just want to get started hacking, or I want, how do I get, how do I start a group or any question like that? 11:55.190 --> 11:57.690 Encourage them to ask the question. 11:57.930 --> 12:02.730 And the more cross communications and networking you do, the better it works out. 12:02.750 --> 12:09.210 The group is going to act like a springboard for members to participate in events outside of the organization. 12:10.690 --> 12:14.730 Examples of that are we had this discussion within DC404. 12:14.890 --> 12:21.370 I believe the DEF CON group in Vegas, or one of the DEF CON groups, actually has their own hacker space. 12:21.630 --> 12:26.250 And that's where they hold their DEF CON meeting, their DEF CON group meetings, and they run a hacker space. 12:26.250 --> 12:39.230 We discussed that within DC404 and decided that no, DC404, we wanted to encourage our members to go out into the world and do things as a DC404 person in the world. 12:39.230 --> 12:45.930 So some of the DC404 members went off and started a hacker space called Freeside Atlanta, still going strong. 12:45.930 --> 12:54.090 Many of the members have since moved away, but that group is still continuing because it wasn't a DC404 thing. 12:54.090 --> 12:57.470 It was a hacker space, and it works really well. 12:57.470 --> 13:05.850 I go, for instance, I go to the hacker and maker spaces here in Atlanta and teach them basic capture the flag techniques. 13:05.850 --> 13:12.670 I'll do a day of training on how to do web application security and using an attack proxy and all sorts of things. 13:12.670 --> 13:15.090 And the next day we'll run a CTF forum. 13:15.330 --> 13:19.130 And that introduces them to these concepts and encourages them to do that. 13:19.130 --> 13:23.210 And then we help them set up their own permanent CTF infrastructure. 13:36.080 --> 13:36.780 Okay. 13:36.780 --> 13:39.840 So now, who's your target audience? 13:40.740 --> 13:42.720 First off, be specific. 13:42.940 --> 13:46.120 If you just say, we hang out and talk about stuff, you won't get people. 13:46.120 --> 13:49.100 You have to tell them what you're about, and you have to give a description of it. 13:49.140 --> 13:50.900 That can be kind of difficult. 14:08.800 --> 14:10.320 Why is this not working? 14:10.320 --> 14:10.860 Okay. 14:10.860 --> 14:12.040 There we go. 14:12.040 --> 14:13.680 Sorry for that interruption. 14:14.360 --> 14:15.820 Be flexible. 14:17.340 --> 14:18.220 Okay. 14:18.280 --> 14:21.180 Post requirements about your membership, whatever it is. 14:21.180 --> 14:24.620 For instance, DC404 group, we're a DEF CON group. 14:24.620 --> 14:29.500 The DEF CON group, we have a webpage where we have our information and our charter on it. 14:29.500 --> 14:39.160 And one of the things it specifically says in our meeting post about our meetings is that anybody, any age, any skill level is allowed to come. 14:39.160 --> 14:42.840 So we highly encourage that attendance. 14:42.840 --> 14:47.920 And then when they get there, we tell them what our group's about at every meeting and encourage that kind of sharing. 14:48.280 --> 14:55.620 Now, let's talk about the DEF CON groups for a minute, specifically, since we are... hopefully, you're going to go out and start a DEF CON group. 14:56.900 --> 15:01.100 Specifically in the DEF CON charter, it's any age and any skill level. 15:01.500 --> 15:05.820 Also, DEF CON frowns on calling yourself a hacking group. 15:05.820 --> 15:10.880 Now, despite what was said today, we are hackers. 15:10.880 --> 15:17.380 We hack in the sense of the traditional idea of discovering what something's capable of as opposed to what it was designed to do. 15:17.380 --> 15:22.280 But we do not tolerate illegal practices. 15:22.280 --> 15:24.840 We regularly give talks on ethics. 15:24.840 --> 15:45.420 And one of the things that we found is a great benefit with CTFs and teaching people how to build their own training lab at home with little or no resources, very low resources, usually with thrown away computers that somebody set at the curb, so that they can train in a safe environment and do the things that a black cat would do, 15:45.420 --> 15:47.600 but do it in a way that doesn't get them arrested. 15:47.600 --> 15:50.560 And then they can come back and demonstrate it and share with the rest of the group. 15:50.560 --> 15:52.180 So it's a whole lot of fun. 15:52.180 --> 15:55.600 Of course, then we run a CTF so they can practice it in real time. 15:55.960 --> 15:58.600 I can't stress having a CTF, it's so much fun. 16:03.840 --> 16:21.160 Now, another thing about DEF CON groups, if you go read the DEF CON charter on the FAQ right now, there used to be something in there that DEF CON groups are not allowed to require any kind of fees or dues to attend the meetings, that the meetings must be free and open to the public. 16:21.900 --> 16:24.800 So that's missing from the FAQ. 16:25.040 --> 16:29.980 In putting this presentation together, we found that missing and notified them. 16:29.980 --> 16:32.300 So they'll be adding it back to the FAQ. 16:33.300 --> 16:42.860 Okay, now, now you've got an idea, you got a target audience, you know what you want to do, you know, you got an idea, you're excited about it, you've got a few friends are going to help you out even. 16:43.240 --> 16:44.300 What do you mean? 16:44.740 --> 16:46.640 That is a huge problem. 16:46.640 --> 16:51.540 So let me give you a list of some of the things that are the most common things people look for. 16:51.660 --> 16:54.220 One is free meeting space and parking. 16:54.220 --> 16:55.840 Now, that's not an absolute rule. 16:55.840 --> 16:59.300 For a while, DC 404 met in a comedy club. 17:00.220 --> 17:10.740 And the only parking was there that was nearby was across the street and there was a pay parking, you could park a couple of blocks away for free on the street and then walk there. 17:10.740 --> 17:13.540 But free parking was not readily available. 17:13.540 --> 17:15.260 We now meet at manuals tavern. 17:15.260 --> 17:18.700 Thank you, manuals, for hosting us for free. 17:18.980 --> 17:21.740 In parking, they give us free meeting space. 17:21.740 --> 17:23.080 That's a big bonus. 17:23.580 --> 17:28.440 I recommend you if you look for a space, it's going to handle 20 to 50. 17:29.760 --> 17:32.400 Now, you're probably not going to start out that big. 17:32.400 --> 17:35.800 So it's okay to find a place that's smaller than that to start with. 17:35.800 --> 17:38.680 But don't be surprised, you have to start finding bigger places. 17:38.680 --> 17:41.440 If you follow what we're telling you today, it'll grow. 17:41.540 --> 17:44.320 And it may take a while, but it will grow. 17:45.160 --> 17:48.840 Find a place that's centrally located to the audience that you want to meet. 17:48.840 --> 17:51.220 Now, that's a problem in the Atlanta area. 17:51.460 --> 17:59.100 Because the metro area is so large, we have roughly five DC groups in our area, scattered all over the place. 17:59.100 --> 18:02.140 Now, what's really interesting is people would think that that's competition. 18:02.400 --> 18:03.680 It's not. 18:04.080 --> 18:10.680 It actually generates more excitement because people go to multiple meetings because they're just so excited about it. 18:10.680 --> 18:12.860 So that's not really a problem. 18:12.860 --> 18:15.200 And we all communicate on the same Discord server. 18:15.200 --> 18:17.860 We each have our own channel, but we all communicate together. 18:17.860 --> 18:22.520 And so there's a lot of excitement for DEF CON group activity in the area. 18:22.520 --> 18:26.440 And we all help each other out with what they're doing. 18:26.440 --> 18:33.560 So they have centrally located in the area of the city that they're trying to make it easier for people to travel to. 18:49.390 --> 18:50.350 Okay. 18:50.510 --> 18:54.050 Wow, we're having some fun today with some social engineering. 18:54.230 --> 18:55.670 Hey, that's to be expected, right? 18:55.670 --> 18:57.410 We're a hacking conference. 18:59.270 --> 19:02.430 Centrally located to the group that you're trying to meet with. 19:02.430 --> 19:04.790 Now, that can be a challenge. 19:04.790 --> 19:12.330 Like here in Atlanta, during rush hour, and especially when we meet at Manuel's Tavern, that's down in the central part of the city. 19:12.370 --> 19:19.510 It's not uncommon for them to have some major citywide event that makes getting to Manuel's Tavern rather difficult at times. 19:19.770 --> 19:23.590 So that becomes an issue in picking where your location is. 19:23.590 --> 19:27.810 But for us, that worked out actually pretty well for a majority of the people in Atlanta. 19:27.810 --> 19:30.110 But for the other groups, they're far outlying. 19:30.110 --> 19:32.510 Some of them are an hour's drive from where we are. 19:32.510 --> 19:35.790 And at rush hour, you just can't get there from here type of problem. 19:35.790 --> 19:40.850 So find something that's located centrally in your group, preferably not too noisy. 19:40.930 --> 19:44.870 Because if you want to do presentations, you're going to need someplace quiet. 19:45.350 --> 19:49.010 However, that's not necessarily hard. 19:50.010 --> 19:54.350 They have two different rooms. 19:54.350 --> 19:56.190 One is kind of off by itself. 19:56.190 --> 19:57.890 And it's rather quiet. 19:57.890 --> 20:00.590 And we can do presentations with no problem. 20:00.590 --> 20:02.530 The other one is called the Eagle's Nest. 20:02.550 --> 20:07.170 And it is extremely noisy, because it's right next to their main dining area. 20:07.170 --> 20:13.590 And they have, quote, a soundproofing curtain that they pull across that does absolutely nothing to the sound. 20:13.590 --> 20:16.390 But that was supposedly the intent when they remodeled. 20:17.050 --> 20:18.190 Hey, it's free space. 20:18.190 --> 20:19.070 We make the best of it. 20:19.070 --> 20:19.710 We improvise. 20:19.710 --> 20:20.870 We adapt to overcome. 20:21.090 --> 20:24.290 But that could be a bit of a challenge sometimes. 20:24.290 --> 20:27.650 That's why we use a PA system, so that we can talk over that. 20:27.650 --> 20:34.330 Another one that's kind of important, depending on what you intend to what kind of activities you're going to have at your meetings is free internet. 20:34.330 --> 20:39.750 If they have Wi-Fi, that's highly advisable, especially if you want to run something like Capture the Flag. 20:40.170 --> 20:47.630 Now, another thing you're going to want to look for is, do they have any facilities for doing presentations, assuming you want to do them? 20:47.630 --> 20:50.870 Not all of our DC groups do presentations at their meetings. 20:50.870 --> 20:55.650 A lot of them just get together and hang out and talk about whatever they're working on. 20:56.450 --> 21:01.990 Ours, DC404, we promote people doing presentations. 21:02.050 --> 21:06.710 In fact, DC404 members regularly present at DEF CON and other conferences. 21:06.790 --> 21:09.670 So we always want to have a live presentation. 21:09.670 --> 21:13.030 So we make sure that wherever we meet has a PA system. 21:13.830 --> 21:16.370 And if not, we provide our own. 21:16.370 --> 21:20.590 We have one of the members who will bring one with him, and we can use their PA system. 21:20.770 --> 21:26.650 Look for a free projector and a screen, or a large screen TV also works rather well. 21:27.650 --> 21:33.870 Some cases, we found places that they have a projector, but they charge for the use of the projector. 21:33.870 --> 21:35.890 But the use of the screen was free. 21:35.930 --> 21:36.790 No problem. 21:36.790 --> 21:38.850 We brought our own projector. 21:39.270 --> 21:41.170 Now, I know what you're thinking. 21:41.170 --> 21:42.390 I remember thinking this, too. 21:42.390 --> 21:44.170 I can't afford to buy a projector. 21:44.290 --> 21:46.010 Well, WARC would let me check one out. 21:46.010 --> 21:49.970 I told them what it was for, and they said, oh, yes, we're supported doing that. 21:49.970 --> 21:51.110 Sure, check one out. 21:51.110 --> 21:55.930 And so I was able to check out a projector from WARC and bring it with me, and we can do presentations that way. 21:56.410 --> 22:01.430 Or if you are a member of a church, a lot of times a church has a projector, and you can borrow it from your church. 22:01.430 --> 22:02.250 That's an example. 22:02.250 --> 22:05.070 So ask your friends, ask around, see what you can find. 22:05.190 --> 22:08.550 You don't always have to buy it in order to provide it. 22:09.890 --> 22:10.510 Oops. 22:11.150 --> 22:11.870 Okay. 22:13.590 --> 22:20.090 Another thing you look for is whether or not they have food and adult beverages, meaning beer, wine, that sort of thing. 22:20.530 --> 22:28.610 If they have food and they have beer and wine, that goes a whole long ways to helping the group congeal together and work together. 22:28.750 --> 22:35.770 People can come, they can have lunch, or depending on what time of day you're doing it, they can have lunch, have a beer, talk to their friends. 22:35.770 --> 22:37.790 It really makes a huge difference. 22:37.810 --> 22:43.030 So DC404 always looks for a place that has food and adult beverages. 22:43.650 --> 22:47.930 One of the big issues is will they provide separate checks? 22:48.030 --> 22:50.130 Ask first, up front. 22:50.130 --> 22:56.350 What you don't want is having a meeting where people come and go, and at the end of the meeting, they walk up with one big bill. 22:56.410 --> 22:59.710 You don't know who ordered what, half the people have already left. 22:59.710 --> 23:00.730 You don't want that. 23:00.730 --> 23:02.550 You want separate checks. 23:02.550 --> 23:04.990 Also make sure to make an announcement to the group. 23:04.990 --> 23:07.010 Don't forget to pay your tab. 23:07.070 --> 23:08.830 We don't want to hunt you down later. 23:08.990 --> 23:10.770 It's just a friendly reminder. 23:11.090 --> 23:15.150 It also helps if they accept reservations for your meeting space. 23:15.570 --> 23:20.350 We've had places where we said, hey, we'd like to reserve this room. 23:20.350 --> 23:22.790 They said, well, we really don't do reservations. 23:22.810 --> 23:29.610 And we get there and our big room had three people and having a conversation, and we were kicked off to some side room where there wasn't enough room. 23:29.610 --> 23:34.230 So make sure that they accept reservations if you want to make sure you get a space. 23:34.750 --> 23:38.590 Places you can go look for a meeting place are things like public libraries. 23:38.590 --> 23:41.370 Now, public libraries are a good place to start. 23:42.190 --> 23:45.110 Problems are they don't typically allow food or drinks. 23:45.510 --> 23:48.430 They usually require that meetings be open to the public. 23:48.430 --> 23:53.950 Now, for DC 404 meetings, that's not a problem for F-Con meetings because they are supposed to be open to the public. 23:54.150 --> 24:00.290 But if your group wants to have a closed meeting, that's not going to work for you because it has to be open to the public. 24:00.390 --> 24:03.350 Another place that people often don't think about are churches. 24:03.350 --> 24:06.250 Churches often provide free parking and meeting space. 24:06.250 --> 24:12.470 So if any of the members of your group are a member of a church, talk to them and see if they've got meeting space at their church. 24:12.470 --> 24:16.130 Quite often, they even have Wi-Fi as well and a projector and a screen. 24:16.170 --> 24:17.270 Works out really good. 24:17.270 --> 24:25.970 In some cases, they have a kitchen, and as long as you're willing to clean the kitchen up afterwards, you can make or bring your own food or have your pizza brought in, whatever. 24:26.190 --> 24:27.530 Works out pretty well. 24:28.070 --> 24:29.690 Pubs and restaurants. 24:29.690 --> 24:32.110 Those are another good place to look for. 24:32.110 --> 24:36.610 Quite often, they do support meeting space and they try to host events. 24:36.630 --> 24:40.450 Now, places that I don't recommend going are things like sports bars. 24:41.310 --> 24:46.030 We've had instances in the past where a sports bar had a space that would work perfectly. 24:46.030 --> 24:58.810 We told them that we can make sure that that room is completely full and that they have standing room only with our group being large enough and easily meet any requirements for the amount of money they want you to spend to use their space. 24:59.370 --> 25:09.870 However, they said that no, primary clientele is the people coming here for sports and if our room is tied up and they can't get in, well, then it gives us a bad name and they won't come back. 25:09.870 --> 25:13.110 So we said, oh, sorry, we can't use your space then. 25:13.330 --> 25:14.650 That's the way it goes. 25:14.690 --> 25:20.870 Some places are going to want to charge you rent for the space and they want a guaranteed amount on the bill. 25:20.870 --> 25:29.730 In other words, they want you to spend so much money and if not, there's a fixed amount you're going to have to pay if you don't if you don't order enough food and beer and that sort of thing. 25:29.750 --> 25:31.630 I would try to avoid those places. 25:31.730 --> 25:33.270 It's hard. 25:34.030 --> 25:57.170 When Manuals Tavern closed for renovations, it took us a great deal of time to find another place that could host us and it wasn't free, but because we were a group open to the public, they gave us a discount and one of the members went to his company and the company paid for a year's worth of meeting space for us until Manuals finished the renovations. 25:57.170 --> 25:59.950 So you can find ways. 25:59.950 --> 26:00.830 Be inventive. 26:00.830 --> 26:03.810 Be hackers, basically. 26:03.810 --> 26:13.070 Another place to look, and this is one that people often forget, are universities, schools, and community centers, especially community centers. 26:13.070 --> 26:20.130 Quite often they have free space to use or go to another organization and ask them if you can use their space. 26:20.130 --> 26:29.170 An example is the Atlanta Junglers Association has a space in the Little Five Points Community Center that we pay rent on and that's where we have our meetings. 26:29.250 --> 26:33.110 Well, they'll make that space available to other groups and the parking's free. 26:34.550 --> 26:46.910 Now, in those cases, we usually charge the groups, but depending on what the group is and when they want to meet and what it's for, especially if members of the AJA want to be present, the Atlanta Junglers Association, like myself, want to be present, 26:46.910 --> 26:48.370 they'll often waive the fee. 26:48.470 --> 26:49.730 So that's a place you can look. 26:49.730 --> 27:01.530 Local high schools and elementary schools can sometimes have a space available to have meetings, especially if they're open to the public, and especially if the kids can come, which DEFCON groups can. 27:02.230 --> 27:09.550 Universities, usually at a university, depends on the university, you're going to have to have somebody who's at the university sponsor the event. 27:09.550 --> 27:11.490 Now, sponsor doesn't mean they pay for anything. 27:11.490 --> 27:15.850 It just means they say, yeah, I vouch for them. 27:15.850 --> 27:18.850 And then you'll be able to have a meeting in one of their meeting spaces. 27:18.870 --> 27:23.170 Now, meeting spaces quite often allow food and drink, but you'll have to provide it yourself. 27:23.170 --> 27:24.670 But they will allow that. 27:24.670 --> 27:27.370 And they'll have all the stuff like projectors and parking and all that. 27:27.370 --> 27:30.810 Now, some schools charge for parking. 27:30.810 --> 27:33.410 Georgia Tech, there's no free parking anywhere on the campus. 27:33.510 --> 27:38.150 Other schools, like Kennesaw State, they have free parking everywhere. 27:38.150 --> 27:40.450 So those are some examples. 27:40.850 --> 27:46.070 Now, one of the things you really have to learn to do is be flexible, okay? 27:46.250 --> 27:56.970 You can, for instance, look for, if everything else fails, see if any of the members of your group, if their company can provide meeting space. 27:57.070 --> 28:00.890 That happens quite often where a company wants to sponsor a meeting space. 28:00.890 --> 28:08.790 And we've had companies, for some of the groups I'm a member of, we've had the company provide the meeting space and pay for pizza for all the meetings. 28:09.390 --> 28:28.670 In the case of 768, I think it is, DC group up in Hartersville, their meetings up there, there's a member who comes and pays for the first $100 of the bill for whatever they get, just pays for every meeting. 28:28.670 --> 28:32.630 And they got free space in the basement of a restaurant they go to. 28:32.870 --> 28:39.690 So that is a great benefit if you can get a sponsor, but it's not required. 28:40.510 --> 28:48.370 Now, one thing I cannot stress enough about meeting spaces is you're going to have to be flexible with the people who provide the space. 28:48.370 --> 28:52.230 For instance, because of COVID, we're doing hybrid meetings. 28:52.230 --> 28:54.550 We have some online and some in person. 28:54.630 --> 29:05.470 And as a result of that, we've had the problem of not enough people showing up to merit the larger space that they have there. 29:05.470 --> 29:10.590 So they moved us to the EagleSense, which is smaller, but a lot noisier. 29:10.590 --> 29:21.570 Now, we could try to get upset about that, but no, what we do is a vendor has been extraordinarily gracious to us in providing free space and helping us and working with us with our group through thick and thin. 29:21.570 --> 29:24.810 They've been there for us all the way through COVID, in fact. 29:24.810 --> 29:30.350 So we really, really are flexible with them and work with them as ever possible. 29:30.350 --> 29:37.470 They'll come to us and say, hey, I know you reserved that space, but we've got this wedding coming in. 29:37.470 --> 29:43.810 Could you guys, could you stop right at four? 29:43.950 --> 29:45.390 I say, sure, no problem. 29:45.390 --> 29:51.170 Or even stop early, whatever their requirements are, we try to be as flexible as possible with them. 29:51.170 --> 30:03.010 By doing that and being nice, it's amazing what the vendors will do or the people who provide the space will do to help you out and become the preferential person that they'll deal with. 30:03.010 --> 30:04.670 You have a question? 30:04.670 --> 30:07.670 Somebody raised their hand over there. 30:08.610 --> 30:10.090 Oh, guess not. 30:10.090 --> 30:10.790 Okay. 30:12.810 --> 30:16.570 Okay, now, where do you get the equipment, things like projectors and things like that? 30:16.570 --> 30:20.150 Well, one we already talked about, you can buy, borrow or buy it. 30:20.150 --> 30:30.350 Now, one of the questions you're going to have to answer if you buy equipment, things like projectors, screens, PA systems, wireless microphones, is who owns it? 30:30.350 --> 30:33.290 In my case, I paid for it all personally out of my pocket. 30:33.290 --> 30:40.830 It's my equipment because I wanted to have a meeting and the people who started DC404, which is Dr. 30:40.830 --> 30:46.750 Chaos and Beth, went on the road and gave me the bag of holding and said, here, hold this. 30:46.750 --> 30:50.010 And I ended up being the host for DC404 meetings. 30:50.390 --> 30:54.510 Well, when they left, they were the ones who brought projectors and screens and mics and that sort of thing. 30:54.510 --> 30:56.290 So I said, oh, I guess that's me now. 30:56.290 --> 30:58.950 Well, at first, I started borrowing stuff. 30:58.950 --> 31:00.230 I signed it out from work. 31:00.230 --> 31:01.650 I told them what I wanted it for. 31:01.790 --> 31:02.910 And they said, sure, no problem. 31:02.910 --> 31:03.850 And I'd borrow from work. 31:03.850 --> 31:08.630 And over time, I collected enough equipment and got stuff together to do that. 31:08.670 --> 31:15.250 Now, if you do buy equipment, you're going to have to decide, is it owned personally or is it owned by the group? 31:15.550 --> 31:17.990 If it's owned by the group, where do you store it? 31:17.990 --> 31:20.430 How do you make sure it ends up at every meeting? 31:20.490 --> 31:22.870 You'll have someone who says, oh, I'll store it at my house. 31:22.870 --> 31:24.710 And then they go on vacation and don't tell you. 31:24.710 --> 31:28.050 And you go to the meeting, you don't have equipment, you can't get it, it's locked in their garage. 31:28.110 --> 31:32.170 So you have to make plans for that sort of problem. 31:32.170 --> 31:34.490 And you have to handle them in advance. 31:34.630 --> 31:40.150 Usually, whoever the host of the meeting is, is going to have to iron those issues out and make sure that gets handled. 31:40.310 --> 31:46.030 Quite often, you're going to find that the only person who cares that much about the meeting is the host. 31:46.510 --> 31:49.110 You started the group, you should care. 31:49.410 --> 31:52.970 However, over time, you're going to have more people come along and help out. 31:53.170 --> 31:54.170 Charmander is here today. 31:54.170 --> 31:57.430 He's there in the back left corner of the stands. 31:57.710 --> 31:59.650 He has been a great help. 31:59.770 --> 32:01.390 Commager is another one that comes along. 32:01.390 --> 32:05.270 We've got about eight people who are our core group who come up all the time and help out. 32:05.270 --> 32:06.510 Smokin' T-Bird is another one. 32:06.530 --> 32:07.930 They'll step in at a moment's notice. 32:07.930 --> 32:09.010 I don't even have to ask them. 32:09.010 --> 32:10.770 It's more like, get out of the way, let me help. 32:10.810 --> 32:12.870 It's awesome when people start coming along. 32:12.870 --> 32:14.610 It'll take time, but you'll get there. 32:14.830 --> 32:18.590 Now, if you get a projector, I recommend a short throw projector. 32:18.590 --> 32:22.770 That's one that can sit like two, three feet from the wall and project a full screen on the wall. 32:23.090 --> 32:28.610 Sometimes you're limited in space and you won't be able to set your projector 15, 20 feet back so you can get an image big enough. 32:28.610 --> 32:31.310 So I recommend a short throw projector. 32:31.430 --> 32:45.790 Another thing you can look at is in order to set the projector on something, it's quite often you get to the room, the tables have got people on them, there's condiments, there's plates of food, there's water, there's coffee, no place to put your projector. 32:45.970 --> 32:58.670 So the solution for that is make a flat mounting plate for your projector that the projector bolts, it's just a piece of wood, your projector bolts to it, and it's got a quarter 20 screw mount on it to screw onto the top of a tripod. 32:58.670 --> 33:07.730 That allows you to just set a tripod on the floor, set a couple of chairs around so people trip over the chairs on your projector, and set it up so it projects on the screen and aligns . 33:07.730 --> 33:10.830 It's totally portable, you can put it in any space, just works. 33:10.830 --> 33:14.710 And if you don't need it, you can put it on a table, you just put it on a table. 33:16.410 --> 33:26.470 If you need a portable projector screen, one that's excellent, gives you a wide screen, it's very small, very light and portable, is made by Epson called the Alc-Acolade Duet. 33:26.790 --> 33:35.070 I have one of those, I actually saw it because I needed to borrow one for a conference, I borrowed it from work, and I was so impressed by this piece of equipment, I went and bought one. 33:35.070 --> 33:37.490 They're absolutely awesome portable screen. 33:38.010 --> 33:40.050 Okay, wireless microphones. 33:40.270 --> 33:44.730 If you get wireless mics, you're going to need a handheld and a lavalier for the speaker. 33:44.790 --> 33:49.990 Handhelds for the host, and also walking around having people ask questions, lavaliers for the speaker. 33:50.970 --> 33:56.770 You can get PA speakers that have a built-in amplifier, so it's an all-in-one unit. 33:56.770 --> 34:08.490 You can just take the two speakers apart, set them up, either stand or set them on the ground, or put them on stands, sometimes they come with stands, and connect your wife, your microphones to it, and go to town. 34:08.490 --> 34:10.210 It'll have a mixer built into the back. 34:10.210 --> 34:12.710 That's the cheapest way to go if you buy your own PA. 34:12.710 --> 34:29.250 Now for us, Manuals has a built-in PA system, so we don't have to have it, but when we were meeting at our alternate location, it's the 57th Fighter Squadron, when they were doing renovations, we provided our own PA, one of our members brought it. 34:30.150 --> 34:33.190 For now, is equipment required? 34:33.310 --> 34:34.790 Absolutely not. 34:35.090 --> 34:47.790 DC-770, which meets the basements of Jefferson's, doesn't have any equipment, they don't have any speakers, sometimes I'll have a speaker, but they're grouped so long, if he just stands up and talks, no slides, nothing. 34:48.490 --> 34:53.870 Now that's highly encouraged, because that's the whole point of being there, we get together and talk about stuff. 34:54.510 --> 34:58.170 Well, let's talk about presenters and speakers. 34:58.630 --> 35:03.690 They're not required, and it depends on your group mission and your audience whether you want to have speakers. 35:03.690 --> 35:13.430 DC-404 members speak at hacking and information security conferences, so we use our meetings so that they can do beta runs of their presentations. 35:13.430 --> 35:20.670 When we do that, we don't record them or anything, so if you want to stay, you have to be there, but we do those beta runs there. 35:20.670 --> 35:34.950 We also use our meetings to encourage new members to learn speaking skills, so they can stand up in front of everybody and um and on, oh my gosh, and all the usual things that they have to learn to get around in public speaking. 35:35.310 --> 35:45.150 We give them that opportunity to practice those skills there in front of a friendly audience, and also to learn this as a skill that they can use in their profession, whatever that may be. 35:45.870 --> 35:55.110 It's a valuable skill, so we encourage everybody to learn how to present at our meetings, but it's not required, but you can decide whether you want to do that or not. 35:56.370 --> 35:58.770 Okay, what kind of activities do you have at your meeting? 35:58.770 --> 36:00.310 What is it that gets people excited? 36:00.310 --> 36:06.690 Well, this is where it gets a little interesting, because we discovered this kind of by accident in DC-404. 36:07.230 --> 36:10.330 At juggling groups, we have juggling. 36:10.330 --> 36:11.530 We're there to juggle. 36:12.290 --> 36:20.390 Everybody brings their own props, usually enough props for them and somebody else to juggle together, at least them and one other person. 36:20.390 --> 36:31.230 That's typically people who want to pass objects at the juggling club will bring enough objects for them and one other person, because the other person might not have brought enough of the right kind or anything at all for that matter. 36:31.730 --> 36:34.650 So, plan with that in mind. 36:34.650 --> 36:39.110 If, for instance, we host a Network King of the Hill CTF. 36:39.110 --> 36:44.550 Now, this is a CTF that's very, GitHub.com, NetCoff. 36:44.550 --> 36:48.070 That's November Echo Tango, Kilo Oscar Tango Hotel. 36:48.070 --> 36:51.150 Net, N-E-T-K-O-T-H, Network King of the Hill. 36:51.190 --> 36:54.390 If you go to that GitHub page, it explains what it's about. 36:54.950 --> 36:59.970 And if you also go to NetCoff.org, there's more information there as well. 36:59.970 --> 37:02.970 It'll explain how to set up and run the CTF. 37:02.970 --> 37:06.510 If anybody's interested in doing one of these, feel free to contact me. 37:06.510 --> 37:08.610 My contact information is the end of the presentation. 37:08.610 --> 37:09.610 I'll go over it. 37:09.830 --> 37:12.530 I'm on the Discord for the DEF CON groups. 37:12.530 --> 37:13.850 You can also get a hold of me there. 37:13.850 --> 37:20.870 You can also go to DC404.org and connect through the mailing list or our DEF CON groups. 37:20.870 --> 37:28.270 There's an invite there on the email to our DEF CON, our Discord for Atlanta Cybersecurity Engineers, where DC404 has a channel. 37:28.790 --> 37:35.110 So, connect with me and I'll happily help you get set up and working your own capture the flag. 37:35.110 --> 37:39.870 I cannot stress enough how exciting this was for the group. 37:41.270 --> 37:51.790 Part of the reason, as you think about it, we come to DEF CON, we hear about all these wonderful things you can do and things you can try, but most of them, if practiced in the wild, would unfortunately get you arrested. 37:53.050 --> 37:55.290 We teach you how to set up. 37:55.290 --> 38:00.270 The CTF gives you an avenue to practice these skills in a competitive environment. 38:00.270 --> 38:05.850 And when I say competitive, it's a friendly competitive environment because of the way King of the Hill works. 38:05.850 --> 38:10.270 I'm not going to go into the mechanics of King of the Hill right now, but it's a really, really fun thing. 38:10.270 --> 38:12.910 In fact, ask some of the people here who are from DC404. 38:12.910 --> 38:15.290 I see Charmander over there, for instance. 38:15.290 --> 38:18.830 Ask some of our members what Network King of the Hill is like. 38:18.990 --> 38:20.290 They'll tell you how exciting it is. 38:20.290 --> 38:26.330 And it is whoever hosts the capture the flag is actually a live admin of the event. 38:26.330 --> 38:31.250 So, you're acting as a live blue team against people who are part of the challenge. 38:31.250 --> 38:35.910 It's a whole lot of fun to both admin it as well as participate in it. 38:35.910 --> 38:37.690 We also have a lockpicking village. 38:37.690 --> 38:39.810 That also happened by accident. 38:39.890 --> 38:40.970 Here's the thing. 38:40.970 --> 38:42.090 I like lockpicking. 38:42.090 --> 38:47.190 I learned it in the Navy way back in the seventies, when you couldn't buy picks, you had to make your own. 38:47.190 --> 38:48.610 And I just liked it. 38:48.610 --> 38:57.110 So, I went to a B-Sides and at the B-Sides was a lockpick village run by Tool. 38:57.110 --> 39:08.310 And they had a lockpick workstation, which was nothing more than two pieces of two by six with some deadbolts that you mount in your front door of your house, mounted in it, and you could try to pick them. 39:08.310 --> 39:10.510 And I went, this is awesome. 39:10.510 --> 39:15.770 And Tool was selling this very rudimentary set of lockpick tools. 39:15.770 --> 39:17.830 And I said, oh my goodness, my lockpick's broken. 39:17.830 --> 39:18.390 This is great. 39:18.390 --> 39:19.170 I can buy a set. 39:19.170 --> 39:19.990 I bought it. 39:20.130 --> 39:21.310 I was very excited. 39:21.310 --> 39:26.850 So, I went home and made my own lockpick workstation, started getting a DC 404 means because I'm interested in lockpicking. 39:27.490 --> 39:30.430 Lo and behold, other people tried it. 39:30.430 --> 39:33.990 Then all of a sudden people said, oh, there's people here interested in lockpicking. 39:33.990 --> 39:35.970 I'm interested in lockpicking too. 39:35.970 --> 39:42.590 Next thing we know, Spoken Keyboard shows up and he is... I thought I was into lockpicking until I met him. 39:42.590 --> 39:46.470 He shows up with an entire village of equipment and sets up a village every time. 39:46.470 --> 39:49.610 So, he and I together co-founded Atlanta Locksport. 39:49.610 --> 39:57.010 And now Atlanta Locksport has their meetings inside the 404 meetings and hosts Electric Village at our meetings. 39:57.790 --> 40:05.910 This has spilled out all over the place because people who come to the DC 404 meetings also hear about the other DEF CON groups in the area. 40:05.910 --> 40:08.090 They also hear about Atlanta 2600. 40:08.090 --> 40:12.790 So, all of a sudden, we said, the guy who runs 2600 is the DC 404 member. 40:12.790 --> 40:15.690 He starts running the cap to the flag at 2600. 40:15.830 --> 40:22.470 All of a sudden, we'd go from five people sitting in the food court to 35 to 40 people sitting in the food court. 40:22.490 --> 40:25.190 And, oh, what do you know, they start bringing their locks too. 40:25.190 --> 40:33.910 So, now we're sitting in the middle of the food court at Lenox Mall, running a CTF and having a lockpick village. 40:34.350 --> 40:44.050 So, yes, it will explode like crazy if you give people some way to vent all this experience and knowledge you're getting, especially in DEF CON groups going online and listening to these talks. 40:44.050 --> 40:49.150 They can actually do it for real in a safe, legal environment. 40:49.150 --> 40:57.710 That's really important because, you know, I kind of get to like you guys and it's really a bummer when I try to send you cookies in jail and they come through just a box of crumbs. 40:57.710 --> 40:58.690 That's terrible. 40:58.690 --> 40:58.870 Okay. 40:58.870 --> 41:03.130 So, I'd rather just sit down and eat dinner with you and drink a beer or something. 41:03.130 --> 41:04.450 That's a whole lot more fun. 41:05.870 --> 41:15.150 Another thing that started was one of the members came in to DC 404 and said, I've got a bunch of stuff that I no longer need. 41:15.310 --> 41:17.830 They upgraded some stuff in their home lab. 41:17.830 --> 41:23.150 They have some technical books that they no longer need because that was the first edition. 41:23.150 --> 41:24.630 They have a second edition now. 41:24.630 --> 41:27.350 They said, could we bring that and give it away at the meeting? 41:27.350 --> 41:28.470 We said, yeah, sure. 41:28.470 --> 41:30.930 So, they brought a big plastic bin with this stuff. 41:31.030 --> 41:34.550 Well, then everybody else started bringing in stuff and putting it in the bin. 41:34.550 --> 41:42.950 And then people would go from all meetings in Atlanta, all the other DC groups, they'll bring the bin, the giveaway bin to all the other groups. 41:42.950 --> 41:45.370 And you put stuff in, you don't want, you take stuff out. 41:45.370 --> 41:48.250 You want things like swag, stickers, you don't know what to do with it. 41:48.250 --> 41:51.350 You got from some other conference, you don't really want, you put them in the bin. 41:51.790 --> 41:53.610 All kinds of fun stuff comes out of there. 41:53.610 --> 41:57.890 I've seen people give away Raspberry Pis because they upgraded, got a new one, they put a Raspberry Pi in there. 41:57.930 --> 41:59.490 All kinds of fun stuff. 41:59.490 --> 42:00.310 That's another thing. 42:00.310 --> 42:02.470 But posters, books, hardware. 42:02.470 --> 42:07.230 I've had people put computers in the bin, laptops, all kinds of stuff. 42:08.010 --> 42:17.650 Now, another thing you can do is when you go to a conference , say like DEF CON for instance, there's a bunch of DC404 people at DEF CON. 42:17.710 --> 42:22.450 Well, actually, there's a bunch of people from all the DEF CON groups in Atlanta at DEF CON. 42:22.530 --> 42:28.150 So, DC404 set up a Google chat channel. 42:28.150 --> 42:39.790 And if you want to coordinate with other people at the event to go out to dinner, to go to talks as a group, those sort of things, everybody can chat, they can use it on their phone, they can use it on their computer. 42:39.790 --> 42:49.450 And what's really fun about that is people like myself who can't actually make it to the meeting, I can follow along with my friends that are at DEF CON and hear what's going on and be excited with them. 42:49.450 --> 42:54.870 So, that's one way you can keep the excitement going when people aren't even there. 42:55.830 --> 43:01.570 Another thing, and this is one of our members brought this, is he wanted to teach people how to solder. 43:01.570 --> 43:06.850 So, he brings a soldering station with him and sits down and teaches people how to do soldering. 43:06.870 --> 43:14.750 Another member designs, if you're familiar with the shitty add-ons that go on the badge, like the DEF CON badge, that has a little connector on it. 43:14.750 --> 43:22.130 So, a lot of cons have, it's a standard now, this little connector, you can plug on an additional daughter card onto the main board. 43:22.130 --> 43:23.950 And those are called shitty add-ons. 43:23.950 --> 43:28.430 There's an actual standard for that interface now, well, the standards, I guess, with hackers. 43:29.210 --> 43:35.610 And there's people in our group who design and build those and bring in prototypes for people to try out and play with. 43:36.430 --> 43:38.130 DC404 is part of SWAG. 43:38.130 --> 43:45.650 One of the members went out and had made some add-on with the DC404 logo and everything else. 43:45.650 --> 43:51.310 And we sold them to people and they were able to take them with them to DEF CON and trade them for other add-ons. 43:51.370 --> 43:52.430 A whole lot of fun. 43:52.430 --> 43:57.910 So, those are the kind of activities you can have that just gets everybody excited and gets everybody on board. 43:58.530 --> 44:00.210 Now, let's talk about governance. 44:00.210 --> 44:02.970 Governance is where it gets serious. 44:03.190 --> 44:08.210 That's the overarching plan of how we're going to govern how people meet. 44:08.210 --> 44:16.050 Whenever you get people together, they automatically start forming hierarchies and forming ways of organizing the situation. 44:16.290 --> 44:24.230 It all depends on what it is your group needs in order to meet that is going to determine what kind of governance you're going to use. 44:24.430 --> 44:27.550 Now, the first type we'll talk about is what's called anarchistic. 44:27.830 --> 44:29.070 There's no leader. 44:29.570 --> 44:31.910 There's no one who's officially even a host. 44:32.470 --> 44:38.910 There's the people who tend to have been going there the longest and people will ask them questions simply because they've been going there the longest. 44:38.910 --> 44:43.350 Think of this as people who show up at the same location based on a history of the meeting. 44:43.970 --> 44:47.950 An example would be a pickup basketball game at the city public court. 44:48.370 --> 44:52.010 It's only every Saturday you go out there, there's people playing basketball on the court. 44:52.010 --> 44:53.910 You walk on, there's nobody in charge. 44:53.910 --> 44:55.010 You want to play, you play. 44:55.010 --> 44:58.010 If you don't want to play, you sit by the sidelines, talk, chat, whatever. 44:59.150 --> 45:00.910 It's just completely anarchistic. 45:00.910 --> 45:03.650 There's nothing formal, just show up, hang out, and talk. 45:06.250 --> 45:09.990 Think of the rules as like kids agreeing on how to play a game. 45:10.470 --> 45:12.030 There's no rules on how to do that. 45:12.030 --> 45:18.030 You just kind of sit down and kind of give and take and figure out what you're going to do just by who showed up. 45:18.650 --> 45:19.830 That's how that kind of works. 45:19.830 --> 45:23.850 Now, you'd think that a long term that would never ever work. 45:23.850 --> 45:25.330 I beg to differ. 45:25.330 --> 45:34.590 The MIT Juggling Club, which is one of the oldest clubs probably in our country, has been meeting that way since their inception. 45:34.630 --> 45:37.450 Basically, their organizational principle is this. 45:37.510 --> 45:44.110 There's juggling outside this one building, and if it's raining, we go inside to the atrium inside. 45:45.730 --> 45:47.290 Those are the rules. 45:48.070 --> 45:52.410 And it happens like every Tuesday or something, whatever the day of the meeting is. 45:52.410 --> 45:53.670 Why is it like that? 45:53.670 --> 45:55.490 Because that's the way it's always been. 45:56.150 --> 45:57.470 And people just show up. 45:57.470 --> 46:01.570 And it's been one of the longest running groups in the country. 46:01.570 --> 46:02.530 It's amazing. 46:02.530 --> 46:08.070 I marvel at their ability to organize despite doing nothing to organize. 46:08.070 --> 46:09.290 It's crazy. 46:09.450 --> 46:12.030 That's what happens when you show up and you're excited. 46:12.590 --> 46:14.630 The next type is loose. 46:14.890 --> 46:17.710 Now, loose is what DC 404 does. 46:17.710 --> 46:21.890 That means you only need one person to be consistent, at a minimum. 46:21.890 --> 46:25.470 You have to have one person who's consistent and dedicated to make things going. 46:25.570 --> 46:27.270 Decisions are by consensus. 46:27.270 --> 46:29.430 Remember, kids playing together, right? 46:29.430 --> 46:32.150 But there is one person who's kind of in charge. 46:32.150 --> 46:35.850 They don't tell people what to do, but they facilitate the conversation. 46:35.910 --> 46:38.370 They act as the moderator of the conversation. 46:38.870 --> 46:43.270 You'll end up eventually with a core group that just shows up regularly and helps. 46:43.270 --> 46:46.110 You won't be able to tell them no. 46:46.110 --> 46:48.690 They'll show up and help whether you want them to or not. 46:48.930 --> 46:50.350 They'll help you set up chairs. 46:50.350 --> 46:51.510 They'll help you take stuff down. 46:51.510 --> 46:52.730 They'll help you load your car. 46:52.950 --> 46:54.570 They'll do whatever you need. 46:54.690 --> 46:57.270 They'll beg you to help out and try to help out. 46:57.270 --> 46:59.690 And if you don't let them, they'll do it anyway. 46:59.810 --> 47:01.730 They'll just show up because they're excited. 47:01.730 --> 47:07.550 They'll show up with things like Lock Pit Villages or they'll show up with things like Capture the Flags or soldering stations. 47:07.550 --> 47:10.010 And we do a lot more than that at our meetings. 47:10.030 --> 47:11.650 Those are just some of the highlights. 47:12.670 --> 47:15.670 You may or may not have an official charter. 47:16.430 --> 47:17.850 It's not required. 47:18.070 --> 47:24.990 Now, if you're a DEF CON group, there is a charter that you have to abide by in order to be a DEF CON group. 47:24.990 --> 47:25.850 It's very minor. 47:25.850 --> 47:27.470 It's not very difficult to do. 47:28.230 --> 47:30.290 I'll give the link at the end of the presentation. 47:30.290 --> 47:31.410 I'll tell you what it is. 47:31.450 --> 47:41.010 And you can always go to... if you look at this URL here that's hanging in mid-space here, you can get a copy of my presentation, which has all the links at the end of it. 47:43.950 --> 47:48.490 Uh, there's no formal rules in the sense of how we do things. 47:48.490 --> 47:50.890 It's just a matter of kind of like an artistic. 47:50.890 --> 48:02.830 It's like, well, we get together, we have a presenter, we always give feedback to the presenter on how they can help improve their presentation if they need any help with that. 48:02.830 --> 48:05.950 We ask them if they want that kind of feedback and if they do, we give it to them. 48:05.950 --> 48:08.070 And we give them a great round of applause. 48:08.070 --> 48:14.850 We ask them questions and we make them feel wanted and thank them for their presentation. 48:15.770 --> 48:22.610 And we also make time open for people to just share whatever it is they're working on. 48:22.610 --> 48:25.010 Nothing formal, no presentation required. 48:25.010 --> 48:31.190 You want to get up and ask the question of the group, I'm stuck on something, or, hey, I want to know, is anybody here interested in this? 48:31.190 --> 48:31.950 Raise your hand. 48:31.950 --> 48:33.330 Okay, I'm going to come talk to you. 48:33.330 --> 48:35.210 And then they put down the mic and they go over there. 48:35.210 --> 48:38.550 We open it to the floor for people just to share whatever they're working on. 48:38.550 --> 48:45.250 For instance, when we get back after this DEF CON, our first meeting is the Saturday after we get back from DEF CON. 48:45.670 --> 48:47.990 We don't have a presenter. 48:47.990 --> 48:54.910 It's all about people debriefing, what did they see and hear while they were at DEF CON that really impressed them that they'd like to share with the group. 48:55.090 --> 48:56.670 And that's what the meeting is about. 48:57.770 --> 48:58.170 Okay. 48:58.390 --> 49:02.490 DC-404 is a prime example of a loose governance system. 49:03.190 --> 49:05.870 Whoa, I'm in the wrong window. 49:05.870 --> 49:06.950 Let me try that. 49:06.950 --> 49:07.310 Okay. 49:07.310 --> 49:09.010 Now, the next one's formal. 49:09.410 --> 49:18.370 Now, you probably, I don't, you may actually have been part of a formal organization, but most of us probably haven't. 49:18.370 --> 49:18.810 Okay. 49:19.290 --> 49:23.490 A formal organization runs like a business. 49:24.210 --> 49:27.070 They have elected officers. 49:27.390 --> 49:31.330 Regular meetings of the officers is separate from the group meetings. 49:31.490 --> 49:37.630 The meetings run, when they have meetings of the officers, they're run according to Robert's Rules of Order. 49:37.630 --> 49:38.770 They take minutes. 49:38.770 --> 49:40.230 They publish the minutes. 49:40.230 --> 49:43.830 They have published policies, procedures, and membership requirements. 49:44.950 --> 49:50.810 And some organizations will decide to be a 501-3C charitable organization. 49:50.970 --> 49:58.010 Now, whenever you do that, if you want to be a 501-3C, remember, this is a legal entity. 49:58.010 --> 50:00.630 This means there's legal requirements to go along with those. 50:00.630 --> 50:07.230 If you fail to live up to those requirements, there are legal repercussions like fines and possibly prison. 50:07.270 --> 50:11.670 So, if you're going to be a 501-3C, make sure you understand what you're getting into. 50:11.710 --> 50:14.150 There's no doing it like it's a hobby. 50:14.410 --> 50:18.610 If you're a loose organization like DC404, it's more like a hobby. 50:19.010 --> 50:22.630 If you're doing it formally, it's more like a business. 50:22.730 --> 50:28.750 You can't just decide as the CEO of a business, I'm not going to do that anymore and just not show up. 50:28.750 --> 50:30.590 That's not a cool thing to do. 50:30.590 --> 50:35.670 So, you have to realize that when you do that, it impacts the other members of the business. 50:35.670 --> 50:39.330 I can have legal repercussions if you're a 501-3C. 50:41.210 --> 50:45.010 Now, the next one, and this is the last one, is what's called hybrid. 50:45.410 --> 50:47.330 Hybrid is rather interesting. 50:47.330 --> 50:50.490 It's a combination of loose and formal. 50:51.770 --> 50:57.410 Now, this example, if somebody asked me if this would work, I'd tell them no. 50:57.410 --> 51:02.810 Unfortunately, I've seen it work far more than once in practice. 51:03.490 --> 51:06.490 Atlanta Jugglers Association is a prime example of this. 51:06.490 --> 51:10.350 They are a 501-3C3 charitable organization. 51:10.670 --> 51:13.390 They do have formal business meetings. 51:13.830 --> 51:19.650 There are loose minutes that are published as to the results of that meeting. 51:19.890 --> 51:25.410 At that meeting, they vote for the business officers. 51:25.410 --> 51:29.090 That's the president, vice president, secretary, treasurer, that sort of thing. 51:30.110 --> 51:35.910 You have to have members of the core group who are willing to fill those roles. 51:35.910 --> 51:40.210 And we jokingly do things like El Presidente for life and things like that. 51:40.210 --> 51:45.510 But they might be the president for 20-some years in a row simply because they're doing a good job. 51:45.570 --> 51:47.910 Nobody wants to have a coup or a takeover. 51:47.910 --> 51:52.130 Although, one year we did have a coup, but it was kind of a funny thing because the guy wanted to step down. 51:52.130 --> 51:55.850 So, we said, we're going to prop up Charles as president. 51:55.850 --> 51:57.930 He didn't want it, so Jay ended up doing it. 51:57.930 --> 52:08.290 But anyway, the meetings themselves, however, are completely anarchistic, just like MIT Juggling Pong. 52:08.390 --> 52:12.650 Jugglers are kind of that way because the idea is you want to just show up and juggle with each other. 52:12.650 --> 52:14.490 And the only way to do that is just cooperate. 52:14.790 --> 52:19.370 And we've been showing up and doing it for over 30 years at the same location. 52:19.670 --> 52:23.150 So, everybody just expects there's jugglers out on the lawn. 52:23.150 --> 52:26.310 If it's not raining, if not, they're indoors in the kitchen area. 52:26.310 --> 52:29.470 And if not there, they're up in their juggling space up by the theater. 52:29.570 --> 52:33.530 We meet at the... what do you call it? 52:35.190 --> 52:36.410 Not Civic Center. 52:37.210 --> 52:39.350 I said it at the first slide. 52:39.350 --> 52:40.670 What was that? 52:46.400 --> 52:47.960 I can't remember what it is. 52:47.960 --> 53:00.060 It's a civic center, like a civic center, local civic center that's there in Little Five Points, and you can rent space in it, but it's also open to the public for free events. 53:00.120 --> 53:02.780 And so, there's all kinds of stuff going on there. 53:02.860 --> 53:06.600 There's a lot of artistic groups there, and there's even a theater group that meets there. 53:07.800 --> 53:12.380 And Atlanta Government Association runs as a hybrid group. 53:12.520 --> 53:16.220 Even though they're a 501c3, they're a very loose organization. 53:16.220 --> 53:18.340 They run mostly by consensus. 53:19.080 --> 53:24.860 They do have a Presidente Dictator for Lifetime title, who's the official president. 53:24.860 --> 53:29.080 When somebody says, I need to speak to somebody official, that's the person who answers that. 53:29.180 --> 53:30.720 They have all the legal requirements. 53:30.720 --> 53:32.120 They meet all the legal requirements. 53:32.120 --> 53:35.380 They do all the bookkeeping that's required, all that sort of thing. 53:35.380 --> 53:41.260 But as far as the meetings go, they're just anarchistic, just like the MIT Jugglers Club goes. 53:41.300 --> 53:42.040 And it works. 53:42.040 --> 53:44.400 They're not the only organization that runs that way. 53:44.400 --> 53:46.220 That's what's so amazing about it. 53:46.400 --> 53:47.880 Now, let's talk about money. 53:47.880 --> 53:52.000 Now, this is true regardless of any kind of governance type. 53:52.000 --> 53:54.820 If you have money involved, you must be transparent. 53:54.980 --> 53:57.020 Open a bank account from the group. 53:57.080 --> 54:04.200 You have to have multiple people able to access the account, and you must have regular financial reports, and it must be made to the group. 54:04.580 --> 54:07.380 Money and or resources can be donated. 54:08.280 --> 54:11.400 You can have dues or pass the hat at meetings. 54:11.400 --> 54:21.960 Just remember that by charter, DC404, or not DC404, but DEFCON groups cannot have dues or fees as their meeting. 54:21.960 --> 54:26.400 Now, it doesn't mean that people can't just decide to donate money to your DEFCON group, okay? 54:26.400 --> 54:37.080 But if you do that, make sure that you do the formal accounting so that people see transparently where the money is and what's being done with it, okay? 54:37.700 --> 54:41.440 You can get a corporate or private sponsor for your group. 54:41.820 --> 54:42.920 That's quite doable. 54:42.920 --> 54:46.020 We have a sponsor, Pay for Our Space, as an example, okay? 54:46.340 --> 54:47.220 Swag. 54:47.640 --> 54:48.700 This is something I'll tell you. 54:48.700 --> 54:57.980 If you create a logo, do it as a work-for-hire, or have somebody assign this copyright to you, because if you don't, it can get a little sticky when you start selling swag. 54:58.780 --> 55:00.760 DC404 is kind of in that vein. 55:00.760 --> 55:11.760 We have a very famous local artist, or more like infamous local artist, who was the progenitor of our logo. 55:11.760 --> 55:13.760 It was based on something he did. 55:13.760 --> 55:20.260 And he gave us permission to use it as long as we only sold t-shirts and swag to DC404 members. 55:20.260 --> 55:25.500 That means I can give you something that has our swag on it that I paid for, but I can't sell it to you. 55:25.500 --> 55:26.820 We can't sell it publicly. 55:26.820 --> 55:29.280 In order to do that, there's two ways you can do it. 55:29.280 --> 55:36.980 You can either have somebody in your group know somebody who makes that kind of swag, go get a pay up front with their own money, get a big order, and then try to sell it. 55:36.980 --> 55:42.580 We had a member do that recently with our challenge coins, which by the way are primo. 55:42.580 --> 55:43.720 They look so good. 55:43.820 --> 55:47.440 Who just bought them up front and is selling them to all the members of the group. 55:47.620 --> 55:55.180 The other is, we have a Zazzle account where we go in and create things like cups and magnets and t-shirts and things for conventions. 55:55.700 --> 56:01.300 And we make those available to DC404 members to buy, but those links are not open to the public. 56:01.520 --> 56:11.440 So you can have all kinds of swag and you can go either bake it yourself with the money up front, or use a service like Zazzle, and there's more than one, that's just an example one, to make it available to anybody. 56:11.440 --> 56:12.840 Just buy them whenever they want. 56:12.840 --> 56:14.260 You just put them up there. 56:15.000 --> 56:16.080 Okay, advertising. 56:16.080 --> 56:18.800 We're running out of time here, so let me get going. 56:20.800 --> 56:29.260 You need to feed relevant content, encourage discussions on the topics and issues that your site is about, or your group is about. 56:29.260 --> 56:40.900 Things that I would recommend, for instance, we have an email list, we have a Discord channel, we have an IRC server, although there's myself and one other guy in the IRC server, so it's kind of dying. 56:40.900 --> 56:45.640 There's a Twitter page, if you want somebody to have somebody who admins that and responds to things. 56:45.640 --> 56:50.520 You can also have Facebook, Slack, and really, this is the big one, is Meetup. 56:50.520 --> 56:59.980 Now, Meetup costs a lot of money, but every time I ask at a meeting, who here is here the first time? 57:00.180 --> 57:02.740 A bunch of hands will go up, like five to ten hands will go up. 57:02.740 --> 57:04.680 I'll say, how did you find out about us? 57:04.680 --> 57:06.580 And nine out of ten will say Meetup. 57:07.760 --> 57:11.920 So, Meetup is where people seem to be going to find things of interest. 57:11.920 --> 57:15.020 The problem is, Meetup is hideously expensive. 57:15.020 --> 57:16.800 It's like ridiculous money. 57:16.880 --> 57:26.580 Now, the way we got around that is one of our members started a Meetup channel for doing some security training he was and he moved. 57:26.580 --> 57:30.340 And he turned that over to us and said, here, you can have it until the thing runs out. 57:30.340 --> 57:33.120 Well, one of our members took over paying for it. 57:33.560 --> 57:42.980 And instead of just being for DC404, it's for all the groups in Atlanta that's on our Discord server have advertisement for their group thing. 57:42.980 --> 57:45.900 So, we were able to advertise that across the entire thing. 57:45.900 --> 57:48.880 All of us kind of chip in money to help the guy pay for it. 57:48.980 --> 57:53.680 So, I can't tell you how impactful Meetup has been. 57:53.680 --> 57:57.020 I hate to say that because the service is so darned expensive. 57:57.020 --> 58:00.080 But man, do they pull people in like nobody's business. 58:00.700 --> 58:01.480 Okay. 58:01.920 --> 58:03.720 That's pretty much a wrap-up. 58:03.720 --> 58:05.880 Sorry, I had to rush the last slide there. 58:05.940 --> 58:11.120 If you want to contact me, I'm xray at NoBoxLabs.com. 58:11.120 --> 58:14.680 That's N-O-B-O-X-L-A-B-S.com. 58:14.680 --> 58:16.700 That's actually at NoBoxLabs.com. 58:17.600 --> 58:22.200 You can also contact me at AtlantaLockSport.org or NetCost.org. 58:22.200 --> 58:24.100 You can contact me through those. 58:24.420 --> 58:29.420 And if you're looking for resources, the link to my presentations is right up there. 58:31.320 --> 58:36.840 And one of the things that's on my website is a thing on how to get started hacking. 58:36.840 --> 58:41.980 There's also a connection to all the Atlanta Information Security resources in the Atlanta area. 58:41.980 --> 58:50.600 There's links to Capture the Flag and Pentesting training tools, as well as a link directly to... somebody raised their hand, had a question. 58:54.410 --> 58:54.890 Oh, no. 58:54.890 --> 58:55.470 Okay. 58:55.990 --> 58:58.590 There's also a link to the DEF CON groups page. 58:58.590 --> 59:06.670 And that's https://forum.defcon.org slash social-groups, all lowercase. 59:06.670 --> 59:11.310 So that's forum.defcon.org slash social-groups. 59:11.310 --> 59:14.890 And that's where you can find out the information and sign up for a DEF CON group. 59:14.890 --> 59:17.450 Now, if you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me. 59:17.450 --> 59:18.670 I'll be happy to help you. 59:18.670 --> 59:25.750 And getting started, help work through finding a place to meet, whatever you need to help out, you're getting your group started. 59:25.750 --> 59:28.330 Even if it's not a DEF CON group, give me a call. 59:28.330 --> 59:29.310 I'll be glad to help you out. 59:29.310 --> 59:36.430 Or if you're interested in learning how to do Capture the Flag or starting a lock group, Big Village, or whatever, in your group, give me a call. 59:36.430 --> 59:37.370 I'll be happy to help. 59:37.370 --> 59:38.330 Any questions? 59:44.200 --> 59:46.160 Wow, I must have been a really good speaker. 59:46.300 --> 59:46.660 Okay. 59:46.800 --> 59:50.680 So, okay, let me...