1 00:00:00,541 --> 00:00:03,540 - So we have a great panel to start for you guys today, 2 00:00:03,540 --> 00:00:05,400 something that we're probably all really concerned about 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:06,850 and want to talk a lot about. 4 00:00:07,710 --> 00:00:10,800 The talk is called Brazil Redux, 5 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,720 Short Circuiting Tech-Enabled Dystopia 6 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,700 with the Right to Repair. 7 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:16,950 So please give a big hand to these guys 8 00:00:16,950 --> 00:00:18,221 for coming here today. 9 00:00:18,221 --> 00:00:20,640 (crowd applauding) 10 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,792 And let hand it over to Paul. 11 00:00:23,792 --> 00:00:24,625 All right. 12 00:00:25,467 --> 00:00:26,753 - Hey everybody. 13 00:00:26,753 --> 00:00:28,260 Thanks for showing up early. 14 00:00:28,260 --> 00:00:29,340 My name is Paul Roberts. 15 00:00:29,340 --> 00:00:32,340 I'm the founder of SecuRepairs, which is a group 16 00:00:32,340 --> 00:00:34,440 of information security, information technology 17 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,360 professionals who support the right to repair. 18 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:41,220 And we're here today to talk about right to repair. 19 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:46,220 And the first thing I want to do is to clarify 20 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,730 why the title of the talk is Brazil. 21 00:00:50,730 --> 00:00:54,780 'cause Brazil is something that actually, 22 00:00:54,780 --> 00:00:56,820 the movie "Brazil", something that sort of 23 00:00:56,820 --> 00:00:58,170 has a lot of tie ins with our talk. 24 00:00:58,170 --> 00:01:01,500 So I'm gonna play a clip from the 1980 film, 25 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:02,847 1985 film, "Brazil". 26 00:01:06,381 --> 00:01:09,723 - What, what are you doing? 27 00:01:12,259 --> 00:01:14,501 - Harry Tuttle, heating engineer, at your service. 28 00:01:14,501 --> 00:01:17,501 (furniture banging) 29 00:01:19,197 --> 00:01:20,030 - Tuttle? 30 00:01:22,210 --> 00:01:23,430 Are you from Central Services? 31 00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:24,263 - Ha. 32 00:01:29,910 --> 00:01:31,849 - I called Central Services. 33 00:01:31,849 --> 00:01:33,630 - Well, they're a little overworked these days. 34 00:01:33,630 --> 00:01:35,389 Luckily I intercepted your call. 35 00:01:35,389 --> 00:01:37,370 (tools whizzing) 36 00:01:37,370 --> 00:01:38,203 - You did- 37 00:01:40,290 --> 00:01:41,460 Just a minute. 38 00:01:41,460 --> 00:01:43,370 What is that business with the gun? 39 00:01:43,370 --> 00:01:45,690 - This just the precaution, sir. 40 00:01:45,690 --> 00:01:46,999 Just a precaution. 41 00:01:46,999 --> 00:01:48,740 (power drill whizzing) 42 00:01:48,740 --> 00:01:50,831 I've had traps set to me before now. 43 00:01:50,831 --> 00:01:53,340 There are plenty of people in Central Services who 44 00:01:53,340 --> 00:01:54,720 would love to get their hands on Harry Tuttle. 45 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:55,553 Ha. 46 00:01:57,570 --> 00:01:59,941 - Are you telling me that this is illegal? 47 00:01:59,941 --> 00:02:02,858 (heater exploding) 48 00:02:06,870 --> 00:02:07,703 - Well, yes and no. 49 00:02:07,703 --> 00:02:09,479 Officially, only Central Service operators 50 00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:10,450 are supposed to touch this stuff. 51 00:02:10,450 --> 00:02:12,450 Would you hold this please? 52 00:02:12,450 --> 00:02:14,670 But nowadays with all the new rules and regulations, 53 00:02:14,670 --> 00:02:16,740 they can't get decent staff anymore. 54 00:02:16,740 --> 00:02:20,040 So they tend to turn a blind eye as long as I'm careful. 55 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,690 Mind you (indistinct) they can prove that I've been working 56 00:02:21,690 --> 00:02:25,590 on their equipment, well, (indistinct) 57 00:02:25,590 --> 00:02:27,450 - But wouldn't it be simpler just to, you know- 58 00:02:27,450 --> 00:02:28,283 - Do you mind holding this, please. 59 00:02:28,283 --> 00:02:29,116 - Sorry, yes. 60 00:02:30,101 --> 00:02:30,934 - I was saying, "Wouldn't it be simpler to work 61 00:02:30,934 --> 00:02:32,239 for Central Services?" 62 00:02:32,239 --> 00:02:33,399 - Argh. 63 00:02:33,399 --> 00:02:38,101 Couldn't stand the work, paperwork. 64 00:02:38,101 --> 00:02:41,070 Couldn't stand the paperwork. 65 00:02:41,070 --> 00:02:44,370 Listen, this whole system of yours could be on fire 66 00:02:44,370 --> 00:02:45,990 and I couldn't even turn on a kitchen tap 67 00:02:45,990 --> 00:02:50,313 without filling out a 27 B stroke six, bloody paperwork. 68 00:02:51,570 --> 00:02:54,120 - I suppose one has to expect a certain amount. 69 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:54,953 - Why? 70 00:02:54,953 --> 00:02:56,311 I came into this game for the action, the excitement. 71 00:02:56,311 --> 00:02:59,310 Go anywhere, travel light, get in, get out. 72 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:00,143 wherever there's trouble. 73 00:03:00,143 --> 00:03:00,976 A man alone. 74 00:03:02,730 --> 00:03:04,170 Now they got the whole country sectioned off. 75 00:03:04,170 --> 00:03:05,820 Can't make a move without a form. 76 00:03:13,020 --> 00:03:13,853 - Okay. 77 00:03:14,689 --> 00:03:17,850 So Brazil is a movie about a dystopian future, 78 00:03:17,850 --> 00:03:21,300 in which Central Services, 79 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:23,760 a repair organization run by the state, 80 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,610 basically controls everything. 81 00:03:26,610 --> 00:03:28,230 And if you want to get your, in this case, 82 00:03:28,230 --> 00:03:29,670 air conditioner repaired, 83 00:03:29,670 --> 00:03:31,380 you have to go through Central Services. 84 00:03:31,380 --> 00:03:34,260 And Harry Tuttle is kind of a rogue repairman 85 00:03:34,260 --> 00:03:36,660 who, like, repels down the sides of buildings 86 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:38,430 and sweeps into people's apartments 87 00:03:38,430 --> 00:03:40,740 to do rogue repairs. 88 00:03:40,740 --> 00:03:42,510 And the whole movie kind of hinges 89 00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:44,520 on trying to catch Harry Tuttle 90 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,440 and a whole bunch of stuff that happened 91 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,110 as a result of the state trying to arrest him 92 00:03:49,110 --> 00:03:51,360 and stop him from doing what he's doing. 93 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,510 So the big picture of this panel is to talk 94 00:03:54,510 --> 00:03:57,543 about how Brazil is our current, 95 00:03:58,380 --> 00:04:00,270 our present is a lot closer 96 00:04:00,270 --> 00:04:02,580 to the future imagined in Brazil 97 00:04:02,580 --> 00:04:03,450 than you might think. 98 00:04:03,450 --> 00:04:07,200 And we've got an amazing panel here to talk about that. 99 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,310 The goals of the panel, 100 00:04:08,310 --> 00:04:10,710 to get you informed as a community. 101 00:04:10,710 --> 00:04:13,260 I think the DEF CON community is really important 102 00:04:13,260 --> 00:04:14,610 in this struggle, 103 00:04:14,610 --> 00:04:16,320 to get you engaged in this problem, 104 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,300 because some of you might kind of know 105 00:04:18,300 --> 00:04:19,440 a little bit about right to repair, 106 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,470 but you're gonna know a lot more by the time we're done, 107 00:04:22,470 --> 00:04:24,330 and hopefully to get you involved, 108 00:04:24,330 --> 00:04:27,090 because we need people involved to get this done 109 00:04:27,090 --> 00:04:29,613 as a society and as an economy. 110 00:04:30,690 --> 00:04:33,930 And so what I'd like to do, oh, sorry, 111 00:04:33,930 --> 00:04:37,863 is fool around with PowerPoint and make you watch me. 112 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:41,340 No, what I'd like to do is first of all, 113 00:04:41,340 --> 00:04:44,050 introduce our panel and 114 00:04:46,620 --> 00:04:47,760 I'm sorry 115 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,223 my Window skills are terrible at this point. 116 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:52,373 Here we go. 117 00:04:54,090 --> 00:04:56,340 So why don't we do that? 118 00:04:56,340 --> 00:05:00,300 So if I can just figure out, yeah, there we go. 119 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:01,133 Sorry. 120 00:05:02,130 --> 00:05:04,080 I'm gonna go down the down our table 121 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,150 and let each of them introduce themselves to you 122 00:05:06,150 --> 00:05:07,260 and say hello. 123 00:05:07,260 --> 00:05:10,320 And then we've got some discussing to do. 124 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:11,370 I'll start with you, Corynne. 125 00:05:11,370 --> 00:05:12,240 - Okay. 126 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,750 Hi, I'm Corynne McSherry, and I'm the Legal Director 127 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:18,069 at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. 128 00:05:18,069 --> 00:05:19,340 - [Audience Member] Woo! 129 00:05:19,340 --> 00:05:22,507 (audience applauding) 130 00:05:24,450 --> 00:05:25,380 - I'm Kyle Weems. 131 00:05:25,380 --> 00:05:27,240 And I started, iFixit. 132 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:28,560 I've been involved with right to repair 133 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,439 for a good while now. 134 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:33,606 (audience applauding) 135 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:36,480 - I'm Louis Rossmann. 136 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,430 I have a repair shop in New York City 137 00:05:38,430 --> 00:05:40,500 that is component-level repair on Apple products. 138 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:41,550 And I have a YouTube channel 139 00:05:41,550 --> 00:05:44,119 where I make an enemy of lobbyists professionally. 140 00:05:44,119 --> 00:05:47,286 (audience applauding) 141 00:05:49,500 --> 00:05:52,290 - My name is Joe Grand, also known as Kingpin, 142 00:05:52,290 --> 00:05:54,180 and I'm a hardware hacker 143 00:05:54,180 --> 00:05:56,850 and this is definitely the most serious panel 144 00:05:56,850 --> 00:05:58,023 I've ever been on, 145 00:05:58,860 --> 00:06:00,270 but very important as well. 146 00:06:00,270 --> 00:06:01,628 So thanks for being here. 147 00:06:01,628 --> 00:06:04,795 (audience applauding) 148 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:07,257 - I'm really excited to have all of them 149 00:06:07,257 --> 00:06:09,990 and I'm very thankful that they took time away 150 00:06:09,990 --> 00:06:11,220 from their busy lives to come 151 00:06:11,220 --> 00:06:12,900 and talk to you about this. 152 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:15,810 So I think to start, probably a good place to start, 153 00:06:15,810 --> 00:06:17,850 would be with the problem, 154 00:06:17,850 --> 00:06:21,570 and so why do we need to have this talk? 155 00:06:21,570 --> 00:06:23,460 Why is there even a question 156 00:06:23,460 --> 00:06:24,810 about our right to repair stuff 157 00:06:24,810 --> 00:06:26,460 'cause we own it, right? 158 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:29,040 And I thought to start, I just sort of toss that 159 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:30,750 to Corynne, 'cause I think you're the lawyer 160 00:06:30,750 --> 00:06:32,490 on the panel, and you're the best suited 161 00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:34,050 to talk to us about this. 162 00:06:34,050 --> 00:06:37,500 If I have a thing, let's say I'm an Xbox owner, 163 00:06:37,500 --> 00:06:38,490 PlayStation owner, 164 00:06:38,490 --> 00:06:40,890 and some discrete component on my Xbox 165 00:06:40,890 --> 00:06:43,110 or PlayStation breaks, 166 00:06:43,110 --> 00:06:44,520 why can't I just repair it? 167 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:45,570 What's standing in my way? 168 00:06:45,570 --> 00:06:46,870 Why is that a legal issue? 169 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,880 - Let me count the ways. 170 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:51,963 Okay. 171 00:06:51,963 --> 00:06:55,590 So, let me say first that this is a conversation 172 00:06:55,590 --> 00:06:58,200 where I'm really sorry that the lawyers are showing up. 173 00:06:58,200 --> 00:06:59,940 You know if the lawyers are showing up, 174 00:06:59,940 --> 00:07:01,020 it's probably not good. 175 00:07:01,020 --> 00:07:01,853 Probably not. 176 00:07:01,853 --> 00:07:03,030 And when it comes to repair, 177 00:07:03,030 --> 00:07:05,163 that is very, very true. 178 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,640 So, do you want to hit my slides or should I just, oh. 179 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:09,573 - Sure, sorry. 180 00:07:10,710 --> 00:07:12,510 - All right, but I'll just get started. 181 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:16,350 So, the key problem is that 182 00:07:16,350 --> 00:07:19,680 if there's software in your thing, in your device, 183 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,620 in your refrigerator, in your car, 184 00:07:22,620 --> 00:07:25,000 in anything that makes it smart 185 00:07:25,860 --> 00:07:29,340 also makes it a copyrighted work. 186 00:07:29,340 --> 00:07:31,470 That software is going to be a copyrighted work, 187 00:07:31,470 --> 00:07:34,893 very likely, and with copyright comes problems. 188 00:07:36,330 --> 00:07:37,163 So, yeah. 189 00:07:37,163 --> 00:07:38,130 So if software, then copyright, okay. 190 00:07:38,130 --> 00:07:40,649 So what are the different problems? 191 00:07:40,649 --> 00:07:42,300 Do the next one? 192 00:07:42,300 --> 00:07:44,700 Yeah. So if copy copyright comes with restrictions. 193 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:46,110 The reason you have a copyright 194 00:07:46,110 --> 00:07:48,240 is you can then license the work, 195 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:49,950 and it gives you a lot of control 196 00:07:49,950 --> 00:07:53,910 over how that work is used, how that software is used. 197 00:07:53,910 --> 00:07:56,400 Now there's limits on that, like fair use, 198 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:57,630 and a lot of other limits. 199 00:07:57,630 --> 00:07:58,780 It's not unlimited, 200 00:07:58,780 --> 00:08:01,320 unlike what many copyright owners think. 201 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,110 But still, it comes with restrictions. 202 00:08:04,110 --> 00:08:05,430 So it's a practical matter 203 00:08:05,430 --> 00:08:07,140 that looks like problems for repair. 204 00:08:07,140 --> 00:08:10,770 So, the first thing is end user license agreements. 205 00:08:10,770 --> 00:08:13,230 So very often you will buy a device, 206 00:08:13,230 --> 00:08:15,660 and again by device, think car, think refrigerator, 207 00:08:15,660 --> 00:08:16,770 not just your phone. 208 00:08:16,770 --> 00:08:18,033 And you own the thing, 209 00:08:18,870 --> 00:08:21,450 but the software in it is licensed to you. 210 00:08:21,450 --> 00:08:23,020 And somewhere along the line, 211 00:08:23,020 --> 00:08:26,220 something is gonna pop up and you're gonna agree to it 212 00:08:26,220 --> 00:08:28,410 because everyone does, as everyone knows, 213 00:08:28,410 --> 00:08:30,690 no one will read it, but it will be a thing, 214 00:08:30,690 --> 00:08:32,640 and it will have a limit. 215 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:33,690 It will have all kinds of limits 216 00:08:33,690 --> 00:08:36,000 on how you can interact with the software 217 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,380 in your device. 218 00:08:37,380 --> 00:08:39,240 Now, as a practical matter, 219 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:40,980 people often ignore these rules 220 00:08:40,980 --> 00:08:42,570 and that's not the end of the world, 221 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:45,210 but if you are a third party 222 00:08:45,210 --> 00:08:48,600 and you are helping somebody ignore those rules 223 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,510 by providing some kind of interoperable service 224 00:08:51,510 --> 00:08:52,800 or something like that, 225 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,480 well then they can sue you 226 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,370 for interfering with that contract. 227 00:08:56,370 --> 00:08:58,560 'Cause that license agreement is a contract, 228 00:08:58,560 --> 00:08:59,850 whether or not you read it. 229 00:08:59,850 --> 00:09:01,250 The law on this is terrible. 230 00:09:02,190 --> 00:09:03,990 So that's a problem, 231 00:09:03,990 --> 00:09:05,760 and if you think those lawsuits won't happen, 232 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,050 they already have happened. 233 00:09:07,050 --> 00:09:09,570 So that's a thing that chills everybody. 234 00:09:09,570 --> 00:09:10,710 So for example, 235 00:09:10,710 --> 00:09:12,240 this is of a classic example, 236 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,370 but there's a million of them. 237 00:09:14,370 --> 00:09:17,700 So the Xbox EULA says you can't modify it, 238 00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:20,460 e.g. through unauthorized repairs, 239 00:09:20,460 --> 00:09:23,520 or unauthorized upgrades or downloads. 240 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,500 So, it's like we want to be in charge 241 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:27,120 of how you use the thing. 242 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,920 So that's problem one. 243 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,420 Problem two. 244 00:09:30,420 --> 00:09:32,310 Often that software's going be locked down 245 00:09:32,310 --> 00:09:33,463 with some kind of DRM. 246 00:09:33,463 --> 00:09:34,950 I think people probably in this room 247 00:09:34,950 --> 00:09:36,570 are very familiar with this problem, 248 00:09:36,570 --> 00:09:38,460 but just quickly at this point, 249 00:09:38,460 --> 00:09:40,080 they weren't 10 years ago when we started talking about it, 250 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,730 but people know about it now. 251 00:09:41,730 --> 00:09:46,110 So, if you've got a lock on the software and you break it, 252 00:09:46,110 --> 00:09:49,230 which is often trivially easy to do, so you can get access 253 00:09:49,230 --> 00:09:51,210 to that software and mess with it, 254 00:09:51,210 --> 00:09:53,760 well then, you have engaged in an active circumvention, 255 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:54,720 very likely. 256 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,520 And if you tell people what you did, 257 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,800 you have now trafficked, 258 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:00,030 you've engaged in trafficking. 259 00:10:00,030 --> 00:10:01,620 And both of those things are illegal 260 00:10:01,620 --> 00:10:04,050 under Section 1201 of the DMCA, 261 00:10:04,050 --> 00:10:05,880 the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. 262 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,460 So that further limits, 263 00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:09,540 it doesn't matter if you're doing it 264 00:10:09,540 --> 00:10:11,400 for an otherwise lawful purpose, to be clear, 265 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:12,233 You could be engaged- 266 00:10:12,233 --> 00:10:14,071 Reverse engineering for the most part is a fair use. 267 00:10:14,071 --> 00:10:15,240 It is protected. 268 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:16,440 You're allowed to do it. 269 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,800 But the DMCA will stop you even, again, 270 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,010 if it's a very trivially easy lock to break. 271 00:10:22,010 --> 00:10:23,040 Okay. 272 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,703 Lastly, other, and this really is the most irritating thing. 273 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,190 Basic stuff. 274 00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:31,890 Maybe you just want to have access to a manual. 275 00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:34,500 Maybe somebody might like to take that manual 276 00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:36,390 and scan it and make it available online 277 00:10:36,390 --> 00:10:37,920 so people could use them more easily, 278 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,660 compare different manuals, just get access to it. 279 00:10:40,660 --> 00:10:42,090 You could use a search and you can find 280 00:10:42,090 --> 00:10:44,340 the right thing that you need and not try to flip through. 281 00:10:44,340 --> 00:10:45,540 Maybe you don't have your manual anymore. 282 00:10:45,540 --> 00:10:47,130 - Might be somebody in this panel 283 00:10:47,130 --> 00:10:48,475 who wants to do those very- 284 00:10:48,475 --> 00:10:49,308 - Could be. 285 00:10:49,308 --> 00:10:50,141 - I don't know. 286 00:10:50,141 --> 00:10:50,974 - Person. 287 00:10:50,974 --> 00:10:52,860 So just one second, just working through it. 288 00:10:52,860 --> 00:10:56,520 So the manufacturers very often will claim 289 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,830 those manuals are copyrighted 290 00:10:58,830 --> 00:11:02,640 and they have gone after people for posting them online. 291 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,770 Or, they'll claim that they have, 292 00:11:04,770 --> 00:11:05,970 they involve trade secrets. 293 00:11:05,970 --> 00:11:08,190 Now this isn't the manual that is made necessarily 294 00:11:08,190 --> 00:11:11,250 available to the consumer, 295 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:13,170 but rather the manuals that they make available 296 00:11:13,170 --> 00:11:14,667 to their authorized repair people. 297 00:11:14,667 --> 00:11:16,020 And they will say that is, 298 00:11:16,020 --> 00:11:19,080 even if they make it available to thousands of people, 299 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,080 they will say it's still confidential business information 300 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,110 because we only share it with them subject to an NDA. 301 00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:28,053 So I'm very sorry to have to be here, 302 00:11:29,031 --> 00:11:31,650 but I'm glad to tell you that now I've told you bad news, 303 00:11:31,650 --> 00:11:34,950 but there is good news and we will talk about that next. 304 00:11:34,950 --> 00:11:35,783 - Thank you. 305 00:11:37,530 --> 00:11:39,060 There is good news indeed. 306 00:11:39,060 --> 00:11:42,660 And the good news really is the right to repair movement. 307 00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:45,930 And on the panel we have what I consider kind of 308 00:11:45,930 --> 00:11:48,360 the prime mover of the right to repair movement, 309 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,240 which is Kyle Weems of iFixit, 310 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:52,740 who not only started iFixit, 311 00:11:52,740 --> 00:11:54,990 which is, of course, just a huge and valuable resource 312 00:11:54,990 --> 00:11:56,970 for people who want to do repair, 313 00:11:56,970 --> 00:11:59,640 but has also really helped promote 314 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,470 right to repair laws in the States, 315 00:12:01,470 --> 00:12:02,850 not only actually in the States, 316 00:12:02,850 --> 00:12:05,700 but actually in the EU as well. 317 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:06,533 And so Kyle, 318 00:12:06,533 --> 00:12:08,370 I thought I'd toss it to you to give us 319 00:12:08,370 --> 00:12:10,500 the TL:DR on right to repair laws 320 00:12:10,500 --> 00:12:13,890 and what are they, what do they try and do, 321 00:12:13,890 --> 00:12:15,090 and why are they important? 322 00:12:15,090 --> 00:12:15,923 - That's great. 323 00:12:15,923 --> 00:12:16,950 Do you mind if I click through myself? 324 00:12:16,950 --> 00:12:18,050 - Yeah, no, I'm sorry. 325 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,594 - All right. So we have been working on this. 326 00:12:22,594 --> 00:12:24,810 I like to say I've been tilting at this particular windmill 327 00:12:24,810 --> 00:12:25,953 for a while now. 328 00:12:26,910 --> 00:12:28,860 Fundamentally, we need to find a way 329 00:12:28,860 --> 00:12:31,260 to reset expectations 330 00:12:31,260 --> 00:12:33,393 back to where things used to be. 331 00:12:34,260 --> 00:12:37,200 And so that's why I started iFixit in the first place. 332 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,080 We've built a open source repository repair information 333 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,010 with the goal of attempting to enable everybody 334 00:12:44,010 --> 00:12:45,540 to repair all their things. 335 00:12:45,540 --> 00:12:48,226 But there's a lot of problems with that. 336 00:12:48,226 --> 00:12:51,030 And so let me tell you about a buddy of mine, Tim Hicks, 337 00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:52,500 who we really need to get here sometime. 338 00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:54,450 Tim would be awesome, but Tim is in Australia. 339 00:12:54,450 --> 00:12:56,640 It's a bit of a walk to get here. 340 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,830 Tim runs a very creatively named website 341 00:12:58,830 --> 00:13:01,260 called Tim's Laptop Repair Manuals, 342 00:13:01,260 --> 00:13:02,730 and on it he posts service manuals 343 00:13:02,730 --> 00:13:04,170 from all kinds of different things. 344 00:13:04,170 --> 00:13:09,170 And, of course, he is facing the brunt of the issue 345 00:13:09,180 --> 00:13:10,500 that Corynne describes. 346 00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:13,290 So this is a letter that Toshiba sent him. 347 00:13:13,290 --> 00:13:14,580 They said, "Hey, on your website 348 00:13:14,580 --> 00:13:16,620 we can see that you're distributing by download 349 00:13:16,620 --> 00:13:19,260 copyright repair manuals that are proprietary to Toshiba. 350 00:13:19,260 --> 00:13:21,810 These are only available to Toshiba authorized service 351 00:13:21,810 --> 00:13:24,097 providers under strict confidentiality agreements." 352 00:13:24,097 --> 00:13:26,085 [Panel Member] Ooooo! 353 00:13:26,085 --> 00:13:27,817 This is where I, they're like, 354 00:13:27,817 --> 00:13:30,885 "You are not a Toshiba authorized service provider." 355 00:13:30,885 --> 00:13:31,860 (laughs) Okay? 356 00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:32,693 No, duh. 357 00:13:32,693 --> 00:13:33,930 Thanks guys. 358 00:13:33,930 --> 00:13:36,810 So Tim, in response to this, 359 00:13:36,810 --> 00:13:38,850 Tim, he's just a kid running the website. 360 00:13:38,850 --> 00:13:41,220 He went ahead and took the manuals offline, 361 00:13:41,220 --> 00:13:43,860 and we decided this cannot stand. 362 00:13:43,860 --> 00:13:45,030 This is ridiculous. 363 00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:47,793 And so we launched Operation Fix Toshiba, 364 00:13:49,860 --> 00:13:52,050 and we crowdsourced and we went on GoFundMe. 365 00:13:52,050 --> 00:13:54,480 We said, "Hey guys, we need $10,000 to buy 366 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,730 one of every laptop that got taken offline." 367 00:13:56,730 --> 00:13:57,840 We were buying them used. 368 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,790 And then we disassembled all of them. 369 00:13:59,790 --> 00:14:01,530 We wrote new open source service manuals. 370 00:14:01,530 --> 00:14:02,730 We put them online. 371 00:14:02,730 --> 00:14:03,780 And then in the process 372 00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:05,980 we decided we would make Toshiba a new logo, 373 00:14:07,276 --> 00:14:08,109 (audience laughs) 374 00:14:08,109 --> 00:14:10,710 which I think they were super thrilled about. 375 00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:13,877 (audience applauding) 376 00:14:16,740 --> 00:14:21,060 So we're chipping away at this around the edges. 377 00:14:21,060 --> 00:14:24,060 There's a variety of challenges that we're running into. 378 00:14:24,060 --> 00:14:26,340 One problem that we see with all kinds of gizmos 379 00:14:26,340 --> 00:14:28,170 is you say, well, why do you need the service manual? 380 00:14:28,170 --> 00:14:30,320 Because this stuff is crazy glued together. 381 00:14:31,201 --> 00:14:34,680 Anyone here have the original AirPods, raise your hand. 382 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,300 Bought the original AirPods. 383 00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:37,133 Okay? 384 00:14:37,133 --> 00:14:39,093 Now keep your hand up if they still work. 385 00:14:40,209 --> 00:14:41,580 Eww, we got one. 386 00:14:41,580 --> 00:14:43,560 Okay. Very impressive. 387 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,035 A guy who didn't use his AirPods very much. 388 00:14:46,035 --> 00:14:47,663 - [Audience Member] I've taken them out of the box. 389 00:14:48,646 --> 00:14:52,140 - So these gizmos have, the moment you glue in a battery 390 00:14:52,140 --> 00:14:54,720 to a device you're attaching a death clock to it. 391 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,190 It's absolutely insane. 392 00:14:56,190 --> 00:14:59,190 And the way that we buy gadgets today is 393 00:14:59,190 --> 00:15:02,040 if you bought cars and the tires were welded to the frame. 394 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,380 It's like, when the tires wear out, just buy a new car. 395 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:05,430 No one will put up with that. 396 00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:08,553 But we put up with this for electronics, and it's not okay. 397 00:15:09,846 --> 00:15:14,846 So I started doing the we're just gonna write 398 00:15:15,330 --> 00:15:16,846 our own repair manuals. 399 00:15:16,846 --> 00:15:18,060 And we wrote lots of manuals. 400 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:21,257 We were creating everything ourselves, created comments, 401 00:15:21,257 --> 00:15:23,820 and our cameras. 402 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:25,680 And we just got really tired. 403 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:26,970 We'd been doing it over and over. 404 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:29,430 Our community has written 75,000 repair guides. 405 00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:30,630 We're gonna keep going. 406 00:15:30,630 --> 00:15:31,650 We're not gonna stop. 407 00:15:31,650 --> 00:15:33,930 But every year at CES manufacturers introduce 408 00:15:33,930 --> 00:15:35,520 like 15,000 new gadgets. 409 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:36,390 It's very hard to keep up. 410 00:15:36,390 --> 00:15:39,570 So we have to bring manufacturers into the ecosystem. 411 00:15:39,570 --> 00:15:41,670 And then when you get into the world of embedded software, 412 00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:43,440 we need access to schematics. 413 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:44,910 We need access. 414 00:15:44,910 --> 00:15:48,360 We need to be legally bypass DRM. 415 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,040 So that's where we've started working on 416 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:51,840 right to repair legislation. 417 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,060 We've gone to the powers that be (chuckles) 418 00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:56,070 and it turns out some of them agree with us, 419 00:15:56,070 --> 00:15:57,123 which is pretty cool. 420 00:15:57,990 --> 00:16:00,570 So we went to the Federal Trade Commission 421 00:16:00,570 --> 00:16:02,227 a couple years ago and said, 422 00:16:02,227 --> 00:16:04,443 "Hey, what's the deal with those Warranty 423 00:16:04,443 --> 00:16:06,450 Void if Removed stickers that we see everywhere?" 424 00:16:06,450 --> 00:16:07,283 And I think we're all here, 425 00:16:07,283 --> 00:16:08,820 and we like breaking rules, 426 00:16:08,820 --> 00:16:10,470 and I've seen people walking around here 427 00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:12,540 with the I Void Warranties T-shirts. 428 00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:13,373 Cool. 429 00:16:13,373 --> 00:16:16,440 But why is it voiding warranty if you disassemble a thing? 430 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,890 It turns out, I guess we could ask the lawyer, 431 00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:20,823 is it legal? 432 00:16:25,004 --> 00:16:25,837 - [Corynne} Go for it. 433 00:16:25,837 --> 00:16:26,890 Break the warranty. 434 00:16:26,890 --> 00:16:29,880 - So it turns out there's a law that says 435 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,620 it's perfectly fine to open stuff up. 436 00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:32,453 And it does. 437 00:16:32,453 --> 00:16:33,570 If you remove a sticker that says 438 00:16:33,570 --> 00:16:34,500 Warranty Voided if Removed, 439 00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:36,000 it doesn't actually void the warranty. 440 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,400 And the Federal Trade Commission has asked all of us 441 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,100 if you see those stickers to send them pictures 442 00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:44,787 to www.reportfraud.ftc.gov. 443 00:16:44,787 --> 00:16:47,954 (audience applauding) 444 00:16:52,500 --> 00:16:55,200 I mean, you're welcome to send it to the FTC directly. 445 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,520 As a matter of fact, the FTC has launched a, 446 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,700 they just reached a settlement with Weber Grills 447 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:04,980 and Harley-Davidson where the terms of their warranty 448 00:17:04,980 --> 00:17:07,740 were explicitly banning people's right to tinker. 449 00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:09,900 And then what's crazy is just this week, 450 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:12,150 the state of Wisconsin, where Harley-Davidson is built, 451 00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:15,120 the AG of Wisconsin is suing Harley-Davidson 452 00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:16,260 for screwing over their customers 453 00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:17,790 and voiding their warranties. 454 00:17:17,790 --> 00:17:18,720 This kinda hits home for me 455 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:20,640 'cause my dad was actually Harley-Davidson dealer. 456 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,260 So I know a little bit about this world, 457 00:17:22,260 --> 00:17:24,933 and I think Harley-Davidson has it coming. 458 00:17:26,250 --> 00:17:28,170 So we're going beyond that, 459 00:17:28,170 --> 00:17:29,730 and we're working on actual legislation 460 00:17:29,730 --> 00:17:32,430 that will enshrine the right to repair. 461 00:17:32,430 --> 00:17:33,870 And I've been working on this 462 00:17:33,870 --> 00:17:35,697 with Louis and Paul and Corynne 463 00:17:35,697 --> 00:17:39,150 and we've all been, it has been a journey. 464 00:17:39,150 --> 00:17:42,270 We're up to the point where this year 25 different states 465 00:17:42,270 --> 00:17:44,220 introduced right to repair laws. 466 00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:47,073 And I have here a little bit of a grid of where we're at. 467 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:49,770 Nevada, I don't think is on this. 468 00:17:49,770 --> 00:17:51,030 So someone was asking me last night 469 00:17:51,030 --> 00:17:51,960 where we're at with Nevada. 470 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,300 Someone who lives here is welcome to get Nevada 471 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:55,395 on the list. 472 00:17:55,395 --> 00:17:56,955 - [Audience Member] (indistinct) 473 00:17:56,955 --> 00:17:58,290 - Yeah, we had it last year and then it died. 474 00:17:58,290 --> 00:18:00,240 It didn't get reintroduced this year. 475 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,350 This is a slog. 476 00:18:01,350 --> 00:18:03,690 We're trying to do this in parallel across all of these. 477 00:18:03,690 --> 00:18:06,570 But the thing, as all of you in the security research world 478 00:18:06,570 --> 00:18:11,010 knows, you try to attack on a number of different fronts. 479 00:18:11,010 --> 00:18:13,230 You really only need to get root once. 480 00:18:13,230 --> 00:18:14,850 We don't have to get on all of these, 481 00:18:14,850 --> 00:18:17,160 we just need to win one of these things, 482 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,230 because what right to repair laws say is, 483 00:18:19,230 --> 00:18:21,990 if you make a product and you're gonna sell in this state, 484 00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:24,990 you have to make service manuals available online for free. 485 00:18:24,990 --> 00:18:27,300 You have to sell parts online. 486 00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:29,220 You have to make the tools available online. 487 00:18:29,220 --> 00:18:30,990 Once one state passes this, 488 00:18:30,990 --> 00:18:34,350 we're going to get right to repair for the world. 489 00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:38,250 And, fortunately, we think we've got that in New York 490 00:18:38,250 --> 00:18:39,270 right now. 491 00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:41,070 So the New York state, 492 00:18:41,070 --> 00:18:44,577 and this is thanks in much part to Louis, 493 00:18:44,577 --> 00:18:46,740 who has been in New York on the ground, 494 00:18:46,740 --> 00:18:48,780 going to Albany regularly, 495 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:50,910 New York, it has passed the House, 496 00:18:50,910 --> 00:18:51,960 it has passed the Senate, 497 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,700 and it is sitting on the Governor's desk, 498 00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:54,690 waiting for her to sign it. 499 00:18:54,690 --> 00:18:57,204 We're hopeful she will sign it any day. 500 00:18:57,204 --> 00:18:58,056 Now this is huge. 501 00:18:58,056 --> 00:19:01,223 (audience applauding) 502 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,470 The New York law applies to all products 503 00:19:07,470 --> 00:19:08,790 that have electronics in them 504 00:19:08,790 --> 00:19:10,950 that are not agriculture equipment, 505 00:19:10,950 --> 00:19:13,170 motor vehicle, a medical device, 506 00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:14,587 and costs more than $10. 507 00:19:14,587 --> 00:19:15,959 [Panel Member] Home appliances. 508 00:19:15,959 --> 00:19:16,792 - Home appliances. 509 00:19:16,792 --> 00:19:18,270 We didn't get home appliances included. 510 00:19:18,270 --> 00:19:19,650 We'll get that next time. 511 00:19:19,650 --> 00:19:21,240 But that's a pretty broad swath, right? 512 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,890 That's most of the things that we deal with, 513 00:19:22,890 --> 00:19:27,810 that's satellite uplinks, that's boats. 514 00:19:27,810 --> 00:19:29,340 There's a large number of products 515 00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:30,640 that are included in this. 516 00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:33,330 So it'll be very, very interesting 517 00:19:33,330 --> 00:19:35,340 to see how this goes 518 00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:37,770 and how we can take advantage of this. 519 00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:40,680 We're hopeful that we will see more states pass this. 520 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:41,910 In addition to New York, 521 00:19:41,910 --> 00:19:43,320 we're also going back to the slide, 522 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,440 we also got an electric wheelchair right to repair bill 523 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,470 passed in Colorado this year, and that one has been signed. 524 00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:50,620 So that's exciting. 525 00:19:50,620 --> 00:19:54,450 (audience applauding) 526 00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:56,070 And that's really important. 527 00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:58,530 Unfortunately, we're at exactly opposite 528 00:19:58,530 --> 00:19:59,910 a medical right to repair panel 529 00:19:59,910 --> 00:20:00,840 that's happening right now, 530 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:02,040 and there's some doctors talking. 531 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:03,450 And we were just before this panel, 532 00:20:03,450 --> 00:20:04,298 we were talking about how 533 00:20:04,298 --> 00:20:06,510 if you have an electric wheelchair 534 00:20:06,510 --> 00:20:08,970 and you want to change the traction control settings, 535 00:20:08,970 --> 00:20:10,500 it's hidden behind a service password 536 00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:12,120 that they don't give the owners. 537 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:14,400 And bypassing that service password, 538 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:15,540 do I need to consult a lawyer 539 00:20:15,540 --> 00:20:17,390 before I bypass the service password? 540 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:19,913 - [Corynne] Actually, don't. 541 00:20:19,913 --> 00:20:20,746 Don't ask. 542 00:20:22,336 --> 00:20:23,203 Don't ask, don't tell. 543 00:20:23,203 --> 00:20:24,036 - I'm telling you. 544 00:20:24,036 --> 00:20:24,869 Just do it. 545 00:20:24,869 --> 00:20:26,910 She'll have a more nuanced answer. 546 00:20:26,910 --> 00:20:27,743 Yeah (laughing). 547 00:20:28,770 --> 00:20:31,350 This is how to make Corynne feel awkward. 548 00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:32,310 - [Panel Member] Perfect. 549 00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:33,360 - So we're super jazzed. 550 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:34,920 I want to mention, 551 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,360 I know there's a lot of international folks. 552 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:37,590 This is an international movement. 553 00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:39,720 The European Parliament has been on board 554 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,160 with this as well. 555 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,550 So there there's a lot of momentum happening, 556 00:20:44,550 --> 00:20:46,320 but we still have a long way to go. 557 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,320 I mean, we are in a Brazil-style dystopia now. 558 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:50,550 We're trying to get to a world 559 00:20:50,550 --> 00:20:55,170 where maybe stickers like this are not 560 00:20:55,170 --> 00:20:56,040 the law of the land. 561 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:57,810 I think these stickers are so insidious 562 00:20:57,810 --> 00:21:00,150 because they're, I mean, all of us are here 563 00:21:00,150 --> 00:21:01,860 'cause we like breaking rules. 564 00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:03,330 Most people follow rules. 565 00:21:03,330 --> 00:21:05,340 And so when you have a rule that's on every device, 566 00:21:05,340 --> 00:21:06,448 people tend to follow it. 567 00:21:06,448 --> 00:21:09,870 I do repair workshops where we'll give a kid a tool 568 00:21:09,870 --> 00:21:11,910 and we'll say, "Hey, do you want to take apart this iPod?" 569 00:21:11,910 --> 00:21:13,410 And they look at me like I'm crazy, 570 00:21:13,410 --> 00:21:15,390 because the rules, their teachers, their parents, 571 00:21:15,390 --> 00:21:16,867 everyone in society has been telling them, 572 00:21:16,867 --> 00:21:18,450 "Don't take that thing apart." 573 00:21:18,450 --> 00:21:19,860 Where does that come from? 574 00:21:19,860 --> 00:21:22,200 Where does this desire to be sheep and follow these rules? 575 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,480 I swear it's these rules printed on every single thing. 576 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,960 So getting rid of these stickers is going to be huge. 577 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,850 I want to mention one other thing about John Deere, 578 00:21:29,850 --> 00:21:31,290 and there's going to be a John Deere session 579 00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:33,600 at five o'clock today. 580 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,176 Which track? 581 00:21:35,176 --> 00:21:36,510 This one. 582 00:21:36,510 --> 00:21:37,638 Okay. 583 00:21:37,638 --> 00:21:39,690 Here at five o'clock today, epic John Deere news. 584 00:21:39,690 --> 00:21:40,523 You have to be here. 585 00:21:40,523 --> 00:21:42,810 It will be much more technically in depth. 586 00:21:42,810 --> 00:21:44,310 It's gonna be awesome. 587 00:21:44,310 --> 00:21:46,890 I have been kinda fighting John Deere for a while. 588 00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:48,420 They don't like me very much. 589 00:21:48,420 --> 00:21:50,640 Along with EFF and others, 590 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,610 we applied for an exemption to Section 1201, a copyright. 591 00:21:53,610 --> 00:21:56,070 We applied for the ability for tractors to be, 592 00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:58,560 or for farmers to be able legally fix tractors. 593 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,320 And I wrote this article in "Wired Magazine" 594 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,520 about how they were saying 595 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,350 you don't really own your tractor. 596 00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:07,080 And then John Deere sent this letter to all their dealers 597 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,300 telling them that I was a liar, 598 00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:10,920 which was kind of awesome. 599 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,280 And in it they said, similar to a car computer, 600 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,590 ownership of equipment does not include the right 601 00:22:16,590 --> 00:22:18,360 to copy, modify, or distribute software 602 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:19,800 that is embedded in that equipment. 603 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:21,660 And their example here is perfect. 604 00:22:21,660 --> 00:22:23,490 A purchaser may own a book, 605 00:22:23,490 --> 00:22:26,100 but here she does not have a right to copy the book, 606 00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:28,020 to modify the book, or to distribute 607 00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:30,360 unauthorized copies to others. 608 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:31,890 Do you want to comment on that? 609 00:22:31,890 --> 00:22:34,128 - [Corynne] You can totally do all of those things. 610 00:22:34,128 --> 00:22:36,973 - [Kyle] (laughing) 611 00:22:36,973 --> 00:22:39,180 So I mean, these people are living 612 00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:40,350 in a totally different world. 613 00:22:40,350 --> 00:22:42,030 They're like, you buy a tractor 614 00:22:42,030 --> 00:22:43,890 and you don't own the software on the tractor. 615 00:22:43,890 --> 00:22:46,500 You have an implied right to operate the software. 616 00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:47,333 What? 617 00:22:47,333 --> 00:22:48,510 This is is nonsense. 618 00:22:48,510 --> 00:22:51,420 So, we need to take back our right to tinker. 619 00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:52,950 And that's what I'm super jazzed, 620 00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:56,400 excited to be here with everybody here today to talk about. 621 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,273 - Thank you Kyle. 622 00:22:58,146 --> 00:23:02,026 (audience applauding) 623 00:23:02,026 --> 00:23:03,150 - [Joe] Hey, Hey Paul. 624 00:23:03,150 --> 00:23:04,350 - Yes. 625 00:23:04,350 --> 00:23:06,330 - I just want to make a comment about this 626 00:23:06,330 --> 00:23:09,033 from the hacker world, 627 00:23:10,620 --> 00:23:14,400 what these kind of heavy-handed tactics that we're seeing 628 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,000 from mostly consumer product vendors. 629 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,220 This is not new for most of us, right? 630 00:23:20,220 --> 00:23:22,110 If you've ever found some sort of vulnerability 631 00:23:22,110 --> 00:23:23,820 and you've reported that to a company 632 00:23:23,820 --> 00:23:25,680 and they try to squelch you or they sue you 633 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,210 or they threaten to sue you. 634 00:23:27,210 --> 00:23:29,880 This has been going on for 30, 40 years 635 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,820 of people trying to and to enlighten companies 636 00:23:32,820 --> 00:23:34,380 about problems, right? 637 00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:37,200 So the thing that's important about this is 638 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,260 it's not just sort of security-related hackers. 639 00:23:40,260 --> 00:23:42,000 It's the mainstream, everything. 640 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,220 Its, every company is going to see 641 00:23:44,220 --> 00:23:46,470 what one company's tactics are and say, oh, that works. 642 00:23:46,470 --> 00:23:47,303 We're gonna do that also. 643 00:23:47,303 --> 00:23:49,470 We're gonna prevent people from modifying something 644 00:23:49,470 --> 00:23:51,090 which then ends up coming back to us 645 00:23:51,090 --> 00:23:53,160 because it's going to make it harder for us. 646 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,870 And what you'll also mention is, 647 00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:57,180 and as you'll see, is these lobbyists are basically 648 00:23:57,180 --> 00:23:59,850 going up anti-right to repair saying, 649 00:23:59,850 --> 00:24:02,670 kind of blaming the reason why we can't repair our stuff 650 00:24:02,670 --> 00:24:07,620 on security, which effectively is giving us a bad name, 651 00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:08,790 giving hackers a bad name, 652 00:24:08,790 --> 00:24:10,410 which we've also had to deal with forever. 653 00:24:10,410 --> 00:24:12,510 So none of these issues are really new. 654 00:24:12,510 --> 00:24:14,820 It's just, they've gotten bigger and broader. 655 00:24:14,820 --> 00:24:17,640 And most people believe them just like the sticker. 656 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,160 I had no idea that you couldn't actually 657 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:21,120 take the sticker off, 658 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:22,740 because people, which of course I do, 659 00:24:22,740 --> 00:24:24,390 but most people don't. 660 00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:27,060 And if you have something that you've paid money for, 661 00:24:27,060 --> 00:24:28,770 you would like to assume you own it. 662 00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:30,150 But then you see something like that, you're like, 663 00:24:30,150 --> 00:24:31,617 I don't want to void my warranty like that, 664 00:24:31,617 --> 00:24:33,660 and I don't want to get in trouble. 665 00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:36,900 So yeah, we're kind of pawns in this thing 666 00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:38,730 as the lobbyist and as these corporations 667 00:24:38,730 --> 00:24:41,430 are using us as hackers and us as researchers 668 00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:43,290 and us as end users to gain 669 00:24:43,290 --> 00:24:44,940 their kind of political advantage 670 00:24:44,940 --> 00:24:45,810 and their legal advantage, 671 00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:47,280 which is like total crap. 672 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,450 - [Paul] Correct. 673 00:24:48,450 --> 00:24:49,590 - [Corynne] Yeah. 674 00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:53,430 I would be remiss, the John Deere reference reminded 675 00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:55,170 me of something that I meant to mention earlier 676 00:24:55,170 --> 00:24:57,393 that's also hopefully good news, which is, 677 00:24:58,230 --> 00:25:00,210 so the John Deere, that whole letter came up 678 00:25:00,210 --> 00:25:03,090 in the context of us applying for exemptions 679 00:25:03,090 --> 00:25:06,720 from Section 1201 DMCA, which every three years 680 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,460 you can go hat in hand to the copyright office 681 00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:11,130 and say, please, please, can I do this thing? 682 00:25:11,130 --> 00:25:13,080 And this is ridiculous. 683 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:13,913 It's stupid. 684 00:25:13,913 --> 00:25:16,650 And we've been fighting that at EFF for 20 years, 685 00:25:16,650 --> 00:25:19,890 and next month we have a hearing before 686 00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:22,050 the DC Court of Appeals and our challenge 687 00:25:22,050 --> 00:25:24,930 on behalf of Matt Green and Bunnie Huang 688 00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:26,790 challenging that whole law. 689 00:25:26,790 --> 00:25:29,640 And if we win, we at least get rid of that piece. 690 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,043 So fingers crossed. 691 00:25:31,043 --> 00:25:32,760 (audience applauding) 692 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,050 - Indeed. Yeah, that would be huge. 693 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,803 Okay. So the question is why at DEF CON? 694 00:25:38,803 --> 00:25:39,636 And I think one of the reasons 695 00:25:39,636 --> 00:25:40,830 that I wanted to bring this to this conference 696 00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:42,690 is that cybersecurity actually figures 697 00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:44,700 pretty prominently in the debate, 698 00:25:44,700 --> 00:25:48,150 both pro and con on right to repair. 699 00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:51,780 I founded SecuRepairs because I was told, Nathan Proctor 700 00:25:51,780 --> 00:25:53,070 at US PIRG told me, listen, 701 00:25:53,070 --> 00:25:56,370 we're in these hearings with legislators 702 00:25:56,370 --> 00:25:57,510 on right to repair laws. 703 00:25:57,510 --> 00:25:59,560 And what we're hearing from the opponents 704 00:26:00,638 --> 00:26:02,460 is cyber, hackers, you know. 705 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:04,890 One lobbyist told Nebraska lawmakers 706 00:26:04,890 --> 00:26:06,210 that if you pass this right to repair law 707 00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:09,030 then Nebraska will become a mecca for hackers. 708 00:26:09,030 --> 00:26:10,110 They're gonna move to this state 709 00:26:10,110 --> 00:26:11,643 just so they can hack stuff. 710 00:26:12,540 --> 00:26:15,570 And so I thought, but that's not all. 711 00:26:15,570 --> 00:26:16,737 I mean, so cybersecurity is a big part of it. 712 00:26:16,737 --> 00:26:18,990 And I thought just to give you kind of a flavor 713 00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:20,250 of what we hear, 714 00:26:20,250 --> 00:26:22,740 Louis has gone around to hearings all over the country, 715 00:26:22,740 --> 00:26:24,150 Kyle and I as well, 716 00:26:24,150 --> 00:26:27,780 Joe's testified on behalf of right to repair, 717 00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:30,690 give you a sense or a flavor of the arguments 718 00:26:30,690 --> 00:26:33,450 that we hear from the other side. 719 00:26:33,450 --> 00:26:35,820 So if you don't mind, we're gonna just take a journey 720 00:26:35,820 --> 00:26:40,140 down the anti-right to repair rabbit hole here. 721 00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:43,680 - Has anybody here ever seen a magtrometer explode? 722 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,080 To point out, it's interesting, this whole discussion, 723 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,800 I think, underscores the evolution in the notion 724 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,010 of ownership that we're seeing in the economy right now. 725 00:26:54,010 --> 00:26:57,600 You know, it used to be before software was embedded 726 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,900 in these devices, ownership was very cut and dried. 727 00:27:00,900 --> 00:27:03,150 You owned it or you didn't. 728 00:27:03,150 --> 00:27:05,160 But now with software, that has become 729 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,040 a little bit more complicated, and then another twist, 730 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,030 and I think this is true of a lot of the folks in this room, 731 00:27:12,030 --> 00:27:13,920 now we have services. 732 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,610 So the combination of hardware, of software, 733 00:27:17,610 --> 00:27:20,070 and services is an interesting mix. 734 00:27:20,070 --> 00:27:23,160 And I think it does put some of these topics 735 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,500 or issues into the gray area. 736 00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:28,770 - OK, so the first idea is on the part of the OEMs, 737 00:27:28,770 --> 00:27:30,300 ownership is complicated. 738 00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:33,690 And by that they mean you actually don't own this stuff, 739 00:27:33,690 --> 00:27:34,650 you are licensing it. 740 00:27:34,650 --> 00:27:35,820 I mean, you might own the hardware, 741 00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:37,230 but you're licensing the software, 742 00:27:37,230 --> 00:27:40,528 and therefore we still have a seat at the table. 743 00:27:40,528 --> 00:27:42,120 Really common. 744 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:43,920 That was from the Nixing to Fix Conference 745 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,643 that the FTC ran, sorry, in 2019. 746 00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:50,130 Here's the other argument, 747 00:27:50,130 --> 00:27:53,070 which is that security and repairability 748 00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:54,720 are actually in tension with each other, 749 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,490 that if you want to make something repairable, 750 00:27:56,490 --> 00:28:00,003 by definition, you're not going to make it securable. 751 00:28:01,860 --> 00:28:06,660 - Forcing repair on third parties like enterprise customers 752 00:28:06,660 --> 00:28:09,000 and manufacturers can make security worse 753 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,770 and not better for all of us. 754 00:28:10,770 --> 00:28:12,270 And here's how. 755 00:28:12,270 --> 00:28:15,930 First is the loss of accountability for security. 756 00:28:15,930 --> 00:28:18,870 It's difficult to hold OEM's accountable for security 757 00:28:18,870 --> 00:28:21,690 of their products if we also legislate design changes 758 00:28:21,690 --> 00:28:24,150 that'll negatively impact security. 759 00:28:24,150 --> 00:28:27,330 Second is the risk of backsliding the security progress 760 00:28:27,330 --> 00:28:28,443 that we've made. 761 00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:33,750 So consumers have plenty of choices in the marketplace 762 00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:35,370 and they can choose some manufacturers 763 00:28:35,370 --> 00:28:36,720 that prioritize security 764 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,360 and others that prioritize repairability. 765 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,950 But there's no reason that legislation 766 00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:44,070 should mandate repairability and take away consumer choice 767 00:28:44,070 --> 00:28:46,490 between repairability and security. 768 00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:50,130 - [Panel Member] I wish this guy would show up to DEF CON. 769 00:28:50,130 --> 00:28:51,450 Cool to have him on our panel panel. 770 00:28:51,450 --> 00:28:54,810 - That's Dr. Earl Crane who is a PhD and, 771 00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:58,020 I think, is a adjunct professor or teaches somewhere. 772 00:28:58,020 --> 00:28:59,430 But he was for this group called 773 00:28:59,430 --> 00:29:02,220 the Security Innovation Center that I think still exists. 774 00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:03,951 It was basically a lobbying front group. 775 00:29:03,951 --> 00:29:05,023 - [Panel Member] Astroturf. 776 00:29:05,023 --> 00:29:07,470 - Yeah, it was astroturf group of security experts 777 00:29:07,470 --> 00:29:09,750 who support, I don't know what they call, 778 00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:12,030 responsible repair or something like that. 779 00:29:12,030 --> 00:29:13,320 He showed up to a bunch of hearings, 780 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,520 including that FTC hearing, 781 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,492 but he's, that whole group's kind of gone on the downlow. 782 00:29:17,492 --> 00:29:19,290 - [Kyle] Manufacturers tend to hire experts 783 00:29:19,290 --> 00:29:20,732 so they show up and do stuff like this. 784 00:29:20,732 --> 00:29:22,320 And then I think they realize that they're going to be 785 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,140 on stage at DEF CON saying stupid shit like that. 786 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:26,010 And they quit. 787 00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:26,843 - Yeah. 788 00:29:28,140 --> 00:29:30,200 So we had, SecuRepairs had Gary McGraw 789 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,200 on the same panel as Earl, and that was great. 790 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,310 Okay. 791 00:29:35,310 --> 00:29:36,690 Third idea. 792 00:29:36,690 --> 00:29:39,840 Just a whole bunch, just a word salad of 793 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:41,643 scary sounding cyber stuff. 794 00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:52,620 - It says, if you are changing out any component 795 00:29:52,620 --> 00:29:54,240 at the hardware level 796 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,100 with another piece of hardware, 797 00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:59,610 you're not able to provide the same level of assurance 798 00:29:59,610 --> 00:30:01,443 that something else didn't happen. 799 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,263 So that's the first key piece of that. 800 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:07,613 - [Paul] What does that mean? 801 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,070 - The second one is it's a fundamental rule of security 802 00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:18,450 that the best security is that with a crypto algorithm 803 00:30:18,450 --> 00:30:19,860 that it's open to the public, 804 00:30:19,860 --> 00:30:20,940 it's open for inspection. 805 00:30:20,940 --> 00:30:23,250 Good crypto algorithms are those that are open for the 806 00:30:23,250 --> 00:30:24,960 public and for inspection. 807 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,590 What's not okay is when you open up the signing keys, 808 00:30:28,590 --> 00:30:32,070 the secrets inside, and the challenge has been 809 00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:36,120 that in the repair conversation, 810 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,370 it has not been articulated enough. 811 00:30:38,370 --> 00:30:40,980 We haven't had enough of a security discussion 812 00:30:40,980 --> 00:30:44,970 in here to make clear what will be mandated 813 00:30:44,970 --> 00:30:49,970 to be released and where the overreach is. 814 00:30:51,780 --> 00:30:54,870 - Okay. So as you can tell, he kind of got lost 815 00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:56,010 in the woods here at the end of that, 816 00:30:56,010 --> 00:30:59,820 because he was pretty far removed 817 00:30:59,820 --> 00:31:02,010 from what right to repair is about. 818 00:31:02,010 --> 00:31:03,030 Okay. 819 00:31:03,030 --> 00:31:05,910 And the final one, well actually, yeah, 820 00:31:05,910 --> 00:31:10,910 the final argument you hear a lot is this idea 821 00:31:11,220 --> 00:31:13,503 about source code and intellectual property. 822 00:31:14,790 --> 00:31:15,623 I'm sorry. 823 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,520 - My name is Daniel Carson 824 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,640 and I represent Schmidt Equipment Incorporated. 825 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,750 Our dealership represents John Deere construction equipment. 826 00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:29,490 However, to the extent that the owner 827 00:31:29,490 --> 00:31:32,580 has the right to lawfully repair his or her equipment, 828 00:31:32,580 --> 00:31:37,410 John Deere recommends against unauthorized modification of 829 00:31:37,410 --> 00:31:39,900 the embedded software code. 830 00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:42,000 Providing access to the source code 831 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,300 would not only undermine the manufacturer's innovation 832 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:47,190 and intellectual property rights, 833 00:31:47,190 --> 00:31:51,060 would also risk data privacy, and allow unauthorized 834 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:56,060 and illegal tampering of safety and emissions requirements 835 00:31:56,340 --> 00:31:58,230 for the equipment. 836 00:31:58,230 --> 00:31:59,063 - Okay. 837 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:06,320 So that's kind of a taste of what I think we're up against 838 00:32:06,780 --> 00:32:08,460 in the right to repair movement. 839 00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:12,090 And so I thought we'd start, first of all, 840 00:32:12,090 --> 00:32:13,500 with the person on the panel 841 00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:15,090 who actually is most involved 842 00:32:15,090 --> 00:32:18,360 in just the trenches of repair, 843 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,570 and that's Louis who does this for a living. 844 00:32:21,570 --> 00:32:24,180 And I mean, I guess, Louis, could you talk to some 845 00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:26,070 of the arguments that you heard there 846 00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:31,070 about this cybersecurity risk in repair, 847 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:36,080 and whether the work that you do as a repair professional 848 00:32:36,810 --> 00:32:39,480 really poses a cybersecurity risk to your customers 849 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,220 or to the public? 850 00:32:41,220 --> 00:32:43,140 - The one question that I've had at every single one 851 00:32:43,140 --> 00:32:45,840 of these hearings is can you provide one single example? 852 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,390 I mean, repair is a 4 billion dollar industry per year. 853 00:32:48,390 --> 00:32:50,490 So surely you should be able to give one example 854 00:32:50,490 --> 00:32:52,350 of one time anything like this has happened. 855 00:32:52,350 --> 00:32:54,180 Usually they can't, but I can. 856 00:32:54,180 --> 00:32:56,430 So for instance, when they say that independents 857 00:32:56,430 --> 00:32:58,440 may be able to hack into your data and do bad things, 858 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,150 I'd point out how in June of 2021, 859 00:33:00,150 --> 00:33:02,160 there was an article released on how somebody 860 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,140 who had sent a phone to Apple wound up 861 00:33:04,140 --> 00:33:08,280 having their sex tape uploaded not only to Facebook, 862 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,270 but to their Facebook, 863 00:33:09,270 --> 00:33:11,100 because the person logged into their Facebook, 864 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:11,933 so it would look like they were 865 00:33:11,933 --> 00:33:13,230 uploading their own sex tape. 866 00:33:13,230 --> 00:33:14,970 That happened at Apple, not at us. 867 00:33:14,970 --> 00:33:17,280 Or in 2019, when the "Washington Post" showed 868 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,980 that this one horny person at the Genius Bar 869 00:33:19,980 --> 00:33:21,480 was texting himself raunchy photos 870 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:22,860 from that customer's phone. 871 00:33:22,860 --> 00:33:24,480 That happened at the Genius Bar, not here. 872 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:25,920 There are a number of examples 873 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:27,000 of things like this happening. 874 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,190 And there's this idea that there's this magical human being 875 00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:31,830 that exists, this magic Soviet man that you get 876 00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:33,120 when you go to an authorized repair center 877 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,580 where they just magically screens out creeps and weirdos, 878 00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:37,200 and anybody that's gonna do anything like that. 879 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,390 You'd think with the industry being as large as it is 880 00:33:39,390 --> 00:33:41,340 that you'd be able to find a single example 881 00:33:41,340 --> 00:33:42,600 of us doing something like that. 882 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,310 And yet you can't. 883 00:33:44,310 --> 00:33:47,310 Some of the other arguments that wind up getting used is 884 00:33:47,310 --> 00:33:48,930 there's typically safety and security. 885 00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:51,330 So, for instance, in Massachusetts, in 2020, 886 00:33:51,330 --> 00:33:53,760 there was a ballot initiative for right to repair 887 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:54,593 for motor vehicles. 888 00:33:54,593 --> 00:33:56,190 And they would have commercials where you'd have 889 00:33:56,190 --> 00:33:57,330 a woman in a parking lot, 890 00:33:57,330 --> 00:33:59,730 always with a really scary blue fluorescent lights. 891 00:33:59,730 --> 00:34:01,800 And there'd be some string music playing in the background 892 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,990 and somebody walking very slowly behind her. 893 00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:07,080 And then you'd have it go to a crescendo as his hand 894 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,210 shows up on the screen as if he's about to knock her out. 895 00:34:09,210 --> 00:34:10,500 Because if you're a mechanic is able 896 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:12,030 to get an error code from your car, 897 00:34:12,030 --> 00:34:13,470 apparently you're going be sexually assaulted 898 00:34:13,470 --> 00:34:14,430 in a parking lot. 899 00:34:14,430 --> 00:34:16,680 There was another one where you'd have 900 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,180 a man in a flannel shirt, 901 00:34:18,180 --> 00:34:19,620 because that's how you know the guy's a creep, 902 00:34:19,620 --> 00:34:21,870 walking up on somebody's garage really slowly, 903 00:34:21,870 --> 00:34:23,970 the flannel shirt getting slowly into focus 904 00:34:23,970 --> 00:34:25,950 so you could see all the green and the black in there, 905 00:34:25,950 --> 00:34:28,110 and he's walking into her garage 906 00:34:28,110 --> 00:34:29,730 because that's what happens when you get access 907 00:34:29,730 --> 00:34:31,320 to an error code in a car. 908 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,749 Has anybody here ever seen a magtrometer explode before? 909 00:34:34,749 --> 00:34:36,030 A show of hands. 910 00:34:36,030 --> 00:34:37,530 That's cause it doesn't exist. 911 00:34:37,530 --> 00:34:39,960 But AM was telling people that if appliance technicians 912 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,000 work on your devices in your home, that a magtrometer, 913 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,400 which doesn't exist, is going to explode. 914 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:45,233 It's called a magnetron, 915 00:34:45,233 --> 00:34:46,230 and it's in a microwave, 916 00:34:46,230 --> 00:34:47,280 and they don't explode. 917 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,720 The people that make these arguments don't even know 918 00:34:48,720 --> 00:34:51,090 what the names of the gear inside of them are. 919 00:34:51,090 --> 00:34:52,680 The scariest argument for me came 920 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,320 from Katherine at the ESA in 2020, 921 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,330 where she said that if this gets implemented, 922 00:34:57,330 --> 00:34:59,280 the game will play the console, 923 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,980 which I think is the scariest one of them all. 924 00:35:01,980 --> 00:35:03,960 But this is the level of knowledge that we're dealing with. 925 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,250 And at the end of the day, 926 00:35:05,250 --> 00:35:08,100 the most frustrating part is listening to these arguments, 927 00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:10,590 realizing you have 90 seconds to get your point across. 928 00:35:10,590 --> 00:35:12,750 They get their point across afterwards, 929 00:35:12,750 --> 00:35:14,190 and you don't get to say anything. 930 00:35:14,190 --> 00:35:16,640 Oh, actually one of my personal favorite 931 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,150 was a person named Charlie Brown 932 00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:20,280 from CTA who represents Samsung. 933 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:21,113 He showed up and said, 934 00:35:21,113 --> 00:35:22,981 "We have a network of authorized people to make sure 935 00:35:22,981 --> 00:35:25,170 that when you get your phone fixed, 936 00:35:25,170 --> 00:35:27,000 you don't have TikTok installed on it." 937 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,790 Well, three months ago on the budget series Samsung phones, 938 00:35:29,790 --> 00:35:32,580 they now pre-install TikTok whether you like it or not. 939 00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:35,040 So many of the things that they wind up accusing us of are 940 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,330 not only things that they're doing, 941 00:35:36,330 --> 00:35:37,770 but things that they're getting in trouble for 942 00:35:37,770 --> 00:35:38,850 in the news for doing, 943 00:35:38,850 --> 00:35:41,190 and they never seem to face any sort of accountability 944 00:35:41,190 --> 00:35:42,390 or responsibility for it. 945 00:35:42,390 --> 00:35:44,160 If I make things up, then I'm going to get 946 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,000 a one-star Yelp review. 947 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:45,870 I'm gonna get a chargeback. 948 00:35:45,870 --> 00:35:47,010 My store is gonna close. 949 00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:48,720 They get to make things up on a regular basis 950 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:51,180 and make hundreds to $400,000 a year to do it. 951 00:35:51,180 --> 00:35:52,530 And for some reason, people believe them. 952 00:35:52,530 --> 00:35:54,120 So those are some of the arguments that I hear. 953 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,330 And there's my, actually one more, my personal favorite, 954 00:35:57,330 --> 00:35:59,670 2015, this is the one that actually got me started in this, 955 00:35:59,670 --> 00:36:01,680 'cause I'm not a political professional 956 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,060 or lobbyist or anything. 957 00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:05,280 One of the assembly people in New York state said 958 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,440 that the Apple lobbyist had said that 959 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,840 when I replace a fuse on a MacBook motherboard, 960 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,360 that what I've done is I've now converted it into a PC, 961 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,070 because I changed the fuse. 962 00:36:14,070 --> 00:36:16,350 And when I give it back to my customer, 963 00:36:16,350 --> 00:36:18,360 I'm still letting them think it's a MacBook, 964 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,010 when in reality it's a PC. 965 00:36:20,010 --> 00:36:20,850 That's fraud. 966 00:36:20,850 --> 00:36:22,290 And if so, if you want to prevent fraud, 967 00:36:22,290 --> 00:36:24,690 you won't let Louis get access to that through this bill. 968 00:36:24,690 --> 00:36:25,680 I just stared at him. 969 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,750 I'm trying my best not to just fume and curse him out 970 00:36:27,750 --> 00:36:28,583 because he is my assembly person. 971 00:36:28,583 --> 00:36:30,120 And I don't want to get audited again. 972 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,867 And I'm just thinking about, I said, 973 00:36:31,867 --> 00:36:33,930 "Why did you believe this horse shit?" 974 00:36:33,930 --> 00:36:36,210 And he says, "Nobody else came here to tell me otherwise. 975 00:36:36,210 --> 00:36:37,043 Now you did." 976 00:36:37,043 --> 00:36:39,000 And he actually signed and co-sponsored the bill 977 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:39,840 right in front of me. 978 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,510 And that got me to realize there are all these people 979 00:36:42,510 --> 00:36:44,010 that think there's no point to bothering. 980 00:36:44,010 --> 00:36:45,990 Why would I call my assembly person or Senator? 981 00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:47,010 Why would I say anything? 982 00:36:47,010 --> 00:36:49,005 And the reality is, the reason these people win 983 00:36:49,005 --> 00:36:51,210 is nobody else shows up. 984 00:36:51,210 --> 00:36:54,510 - And yeah, I mean, one of the big lies, 985 00:36:54,510 --> 00:36:56,940 which is the same lie that your car dealership tells you 986 00:36:56,940 --> 00:36:59,460 is that their repair people are walking around 987 00:36:59,460 --> 00:37:01,257 in lab coats with PhDs, 988 00:37:01,257 --> 00:37:04,770 and the corner garage are criminals and never do wells, 989 00:37:04,770 --> 00:37:07,320 when in fact, you know, you get excellent quality 990 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,780 from the corner garage more often than not. 991 00:37:09,780 --> 00:37:10,800 And you get good quality 992 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,690 from the authorized repair provider. 993 00:37:12,690 --> 00:37:15,810 And that's a great example of Apple talking 994 00:37:15,810 --> 00:37:17,190 about their authorized repair 995 00:37:17,190 --> 00:37:19,560 as if these people are all highly, highly vetted. 996 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,200 And what we learned actually only through a lawsuit 997 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,190 was that, in fact, 998 00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:26,460 Apple just outsources their device repair 999 00:37:26,460 --> 00:37:28,560 when you ship a device out to a company 1000 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,080 that actually outsourced it to a third company 1001 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:33,840 where these obviously not very well vetted employees 1002 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,093 stole images and posted them. 1003 00:37:36,093 --> 00:37:38,460 Louis, I mean, maybe if you could just talk 1004 00:37:38,460 --> 00:37:42,660 about the restrictions on your business for repair, 1005 00:37:42,660 --> 00:37:45,180 like what are some of the hurdles that you need to get over? 1006 00:37:45,180 --> 00:37:48,000 I know there's one just around, you have parts 1007 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,060 that you might have to order from China, 1008 00:37:51,060 --> 00:37:51,900 replacement screens. 1009 00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,330 They might be original Apple parts, 1010 00:37:54,330 --> 00:37:56,400 but they're getting seized at the border 1011 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,800 because they're being declared counterfeit 1012 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,140 and some of those types of things. 1013 00:38:01,140 --> 00:38:02,340 - Yes, so one of the largest problems 1014 00:38:02,340 --> 00:38:03,450 that I'm facing right now is, 1015 00:38:03,450 --> 00:38:04,530 let's just get by a show of hands, 1016 00:38:04,530 --> 00:38:05,760 how many people have had a device, 1017 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,710 they plug it to charge it, and it dies? 1018 00:38:08,820 --> 00:38:09,690 Okay, common problems. 1019 00:38:09,690 --> 00:38:11,880 Let's say you have a $3,000 device that does that. 1020 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,380 What would you guess the repair price for that is? 1021 00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:17,786 So, yell out any guesses. 1022 00:38:17,786 --> 00:38:21,227 - [Audience Members] (indistinct) 1023 00:38:21,227 --> 00:38:22,060 - Close. 1024 00:38:22,904 --> 00:38:25,440 It's about $1500 to $1,700. 1025 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,050 And the chip that winds up dying is about $5 1026 00:38:28,050 --> 00:38:29,160 from Texas Instruments. 1027 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:30,570 Now when that particular chip dies, 1028 00:38:30,570 --> 00:38:32,070 you used to be able to just buy this chip. 1029 00:38:32,070 --> 00:38:33,930 You could buy from a Texas Instruments reseller, 1030 00:38:33,930 --> 00:38:34,920 or an Interstellar reseller, 1031 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,470 go to Mouser, Digi-Key, Newark and spend five bucks, 1032 00:38:37,470 --> 00:38:39,060 buy it, and then bring it to any one 1033 00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:40,590 of the smorgasbords of repair shops, 1034 00:38:40,590 --> 00:38:43,470 some charge 75, some charge 400, some charge 200, 1035 00:38:43,470 --> 00:38:44,670 and they would all be competing 1036 00:38:44,670 --> 00:38:45,960 in the market for your business. 1037 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:47,700 Now what they do is they tell Interstellar, 1038 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:48,870 they tell Texas instruments, 1039 00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:51,150 don't sell this basic chip to anybody but us. 1040 00:38:51,150 --> 00:38:54,990 So they'll take a chip that is a basic normal function, 1041 00:38:54,990 --> 00:38:56,430 but modify it in one small way 1042 00:38:56,430 --> 00:38:57,960 like what address it communicates on. 1043 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,000 So now you can't buy the off-the-shelf chip, 1044 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,710 and then they will make the chip that they 1045 00:39:01,710 --> 00:39:04,080 slightly modify not available to anybody else. 1046 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,890 So what we will have to do is wait for donor boards 1047 00:39:07,890 --> 00:39:08,723 to come from China. 1048 00:39:08,723 --> 00:39:11,190 So what people will do is they will take these boards 1049 00:39:11,190 --> 00:39:13,140 that are being thrown away because they're defective 1050 00:39:13,140 --> 00:39:15,900 and that are about to get recycled, and we will buy them. 1051 00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:17,700 Now, five years ago, Apple started to get 1052 00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:18,660 a little bit smart about that. 1053 00:39:18,660 --> 00:39:19,830 So they started searching people 1054 00:39:19,830 --> 00:39:20,910 as they're leaving the facility 1055 00:39:20,910 --> 00:39:22,920 and they started shredding up all the devices 1056 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:23,910 that they throw away. 1057 00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:27,143 So now you can't buy a donor board to get that chip anymore. 1058 00:39:27,143 --> 00:39:29,820 They sneak it out in their underwear. 1059 00:39:29,820 --> 00:39:32,715 They'll be a wing, a breast, a thigh. 1060 00:39:32,715 --> 00:39:36,810 You'll get a little box of bits and pieces of board. 1061 00:39:36,810 --> 00:39:38,370 And you have to see if the chip is on there 1062 00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:41,130 that you need to put it on the board to be able to fix it 1063 00:39:41,130 --> 00:39:42,000 for a customer. 1064 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,350 And although the people that are 1065 00:39:43,350 --> 00:39:44,460 making this stuff available, 1066 00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:45,900 I imagine are not exactly doing it 1067 00:39:45,900 --> 00:39:47,160 in the most legal of ways. 1068 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,720 So when I explain this to senators, 1069 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:51,600 I'll say I signed up to be a nerd, a device repair person. 1070 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,310 I wasn't trying to be Nicholas Cage's character 1071 00:39:53,310 --> 00:39:56,100 from "Lord of War," running guns all around the world for, 1072 00:39:56,100 --> 00:39:57,390 but that's what it feels like. 1073 00:39:57,390 --> 00:39:59,377 When you hear your supplier say, 1074 00:39:59,377 --> 00:40:01,290 "Yeah, the reason we're cutting these things up is 1075 00:40:01,290 --> 00:40:03,600 because they have to sneak it out in their underwear 1076 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:04,620 before it comes to you." 1077 00:40:04,620 --> 00:40:05,760 I mean, obviously, the first thing I did is 1078 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:06,960 I dropped a donor board in front of me 1079 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:08,035 and I went to wash my hands. 1080 00:40:08,035 --> 00:40:08,868 (audience laughing) 1081 00:40:08,868 --> 00:40:09,780 But this is part of the process, 1082 00:40:09,780 --> 00:40:11,910 or let's say the schematic diagram. 1083 00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:14,250 That winds up getting taken from somebody 1084 00:40:14,250 --> 00:40:16,290 when their computer is free. 1085 00:40:16,290 --> 00:40:19,440 And somebody walks in the room and plugs in USB, 1086 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:20,280 and then sneaks out 1087 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:22,020 and then makes it available to all of us. 1088 00:40:22,020 --> 00:40:24,150 I mean, you used to have repair manuals written 1089 00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:25,380 on the back of the device. 1090 00:40:25,380 --> 00:40:27,150 Now, you can't get access to this, 1091 00:40:27,150 --> 00:40:28,600 even if you're an authorized repair center. 1092 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,900 So if I get authorized by any of these companies, 1093 00:40:30,900 --> 00:40:32,130 I still can't buy those chips. 1094 00:40:32,130 --> 00:40:33,420 I still can't buy those manuals, 1095 00:40:33,420 --> 00:40:34,560 even if I'm willing to pay 1096 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,901 and go through all of their vetting process. 1097 00:40:36,901 --> 00:40:38,400 - [Paul] Yeah. Joe, you talked about that as well. 1098 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,770 Yeah. Just kind of the talk about that. 1099 00:40:42,770 --> 00:40:43,650 Go ahead. 1100 00:40:43,650 --> 00:40:44,922 - [Joe] Oh, I just wanted to comment on your thing 1101 00:40:44,922 --> 00:40:47,730 about vendors trying to make off the shelf components 1102 00:40:47,730 --> 00:40:51,060 inaccessible to small companies, which just reminded me. 1103 00:40:51,060 --> 00:40:51,900 So I'm working on, 1104 00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:53,850 and you might even have something to say about this, 1105 00:40:53,850 --> 00:40:54,990 I'm working on a project right now. 1106 00:40:54,990 --> 00:40:59,130 So extracting raw NAND flash from a MacBook motherboard, 1107 00:40:59,130 --> 00:41:01,350 and we take it off standard footprint, 1108 00:41:01,350 --> 00:41:03,810 looks like any other regular type of memory device, 1109 00:41:03,810 --> 00:41:07,727 but it turns out that Apple has worked with Toshiba 1110 00:41:10,170 --> 00:41:12,330 to actually change the pin out in such a way 1111 00:41:12,330 --> 00:41:15,600 that all of the available sockets and interfaces 1112 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:16,800 don't work with it. 1113 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,393 So there's stuff you can buy in China, on AliExpress, 1114 00:41:20,393 --> 00:41:22,470 and different sockets that have pins coming up to touch 1115 00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:24,810 on different pads of a standard chip. 1116 00:41:24,810 --> 00:41:25,643 That doesn't work. 1117 00:41:25,643 --> 00:41:27,240 So you have to manufacture or create 1118 00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:30,150 all your own custom stuff just to read a pin out. 1119 00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:31,380 Functionally, it's exactly the same, 1120 00:41:31,380 --> 00:41:33,660 but they've changed that pin out for no other reason, 1121 00:41:33,660 --> 00:41:36,300 I believe, other than to make it impossible 1122 00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:38,580 to get the parts other than from donor boards, 1123 00:41:38,580 --> 00:41:41,190 and for somebody like me to actually get the contents off, 1124 00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:42,360 to do something with it, 1125 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,570 which I'd never even experienced that before. 1126 00:41:45,570 --> 00:41:46,740 Have you seen that on- 1127 00:41:46,740 --> 00:41:48,027 - Most of the, I mean the most insidious part of this 1128 00:41:48,027 --> 00:41:50,490 is that they don't actually even offer these services 1129 00:41:50,490 --> 00:41:51,540 that they would be competing with you on. 1130 00:41:51,540 --> 00:41:53,490 So let's say that you'd be offering data recovery services 1131 00:41:53,490 --> 00:41:55,170 and they make it impossible for you to do it. 1132 00:41:55,170 --> 00:41:56,347 If Warren Buffet walks in there and says, 1133 00:41:56,347 --> 00:41:58,260 "Here's a hundred million dollars, try to get my stuff," 1134 00:41:58,260 --> 00:42:00,690 and it's a basic problem, they would say no. 1135 00:42:00,690 --> 00:42:01,860 - Yeah. And they just make it hard. 1136 00:42:01,860 --> 00:42:04,230 So now what would've been an easy problem to help 1137 00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:06,960 somebody with is now a multi-month process. 1138 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:08,640 You have to buy donor boards and test it 1139 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,160 and build circuit boards to interface with other stuff. 1140 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,193 And it's almost a lot of times, 1141 00:42:13,193 --> 00:42:18,087 security we know is how hard is something, 1142 00:42:18,087 --> 00:42:20,550 and is it worth the adversary from doing? 1143 00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:23,190 And I think a lot of these tactics are just to slow us down, 1144 00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:24,990 to be like, it's not worth the effort. 1145 00:42:24,990 --> 00:42:27,390 So then they just kind of get their way with it. 1146 00:42:27,390 --> 00:42:28,223 - Yeah. 1147 00:42:28,223 --> 00:42:30,720 I think some of this conversation is we're concerned 1148 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:31,920 about the repair monopoly 1149 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,680 and they're screwing over the independent repair shops 1150 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,600 to monopolize repairs. 1151 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:37,893 That's certainly what John Deere is doing. 1152 00:42:37,893 --> 00:42:39,810 What I think Apple is doing is, 1153 00:42:39,810 --> 00:42:41,460 it's a flat out war on repair. 1154 00:42:41,460 --> 00:42:43,170 They don't want this stuff fixed by anyone, 1155 00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:44,490 including Apple folks. 1156 00:42:44,490 --> 00:42:46,920 It's a cycle of disposability. 1157 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,960 The AirPods were never designed to be serviced 1158 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,340 by Apple or anyone else. 1159 00:42:50,340 --> 00:42:54,030 They're designed, you buy it, you use it for 18 months, 1160 00:42:54,030 --> 00:42:57,240 and then you go back and you hand them another $179. 1161 00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:58,734 - That's what they want, right? 1162 00:42:58,734 --> 00:43:00,390 And, actually, right to repair laws are sort of 1163 00:43:00,390 --> 00:43:01,223 silent on that. 1164 00:43:01,223 --> 00:43:02,940 If you want to make a product like the iPods 1165 00:43:02,940 --> 00:43:06,720 that are not repairable or serviceable, knock yourself out. 1166 00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:07,920 Presumably, that would be, 1167 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,650 it would fall to consumers to sort of put pressure 1168 00:43:10,650 --> 00:43:12,180 on manufacturers to- 1169 00:43:12,180 --> 00:43:13,013 - [Kyle] Consumers. 1170 00:43:13,013 --> 00:43:13,846 And Europe is working. 1171 00:43:13,846 --> 00:43:15,870 France rolled out a repairability label, 1172 00:43:15,870 --> 00:43:18,120 where it rates products from zero to 10 1173 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,230 on how fixable it is. 1174 00:43:19,230 --> 00:43:21,261 It's right next to the price. 1175 00:43:21,261 --> 00:43:22,823 And that's starting to have an impact. 1176 00:43:22,823 --> 00:43:25,530 - I mean, Joe, talk a little bit about the concept 1177 00:43:25,530 --> 00:43:26,610 of jail breaking devices. 1178 00:43:26,610 --> 00:43:29,670 'cause I kind of feel like this is sort of the future, 1179 00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:33,450 which is, I would love a future in which it's sort of like, 1180 00:43:33,450 --> 00:43:35,190 hey, thanks to the hardware, John Deere, 1181 00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:36,450 this is a really nice tractor. 1182 00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:40,470 I'm now gonna load my own OS on it and my own services. 1183 00:43:40,470 --> 00:43:42,960 I'm gonna keep my data and instead of sending them 1184 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,820 to your cloud to monetize. 1185 00:43:44,820 --> 00:43:47,850 And, but great job on the tractor. 1186 00:43:47,850 --> 00:43:48,713 Works great. 1187 00:43:48,713 --> 00:43:53,070 So talk about this notion of just sort of jail breaking 1188 00:43:53,070 --> 00:43:57,480 and what role that might play in creating 1189 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,700 a more repairable ecosystem. 1190 00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:02,430 - Sure. I mean, I think from a general perspective, 1191 00:44:02,430 --> 00:44:03,720 if you're not familiar with jail breaking, 1192 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,300 I kind of think about it as just bypassing controls 1193 00:44:06,300 --> 00:44:09,480 of some system to give you access to other resources, 1194 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,850 and those resources are already available, 1195 00:44:11,850 --> 00:44:13,020 but not to you, right? 1196 00:44:13,020 --> 00:44:15,830 So it's something where I think a lot of companies are 1197 00:44:15,830 --> 00:44:18,871 implementing heavy security so they can rely on DMCA 1198 00:44:18,871 --> 00:44:21,420 and rely on legal action. 1199 00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:22,890 But if you're buying a product, 1200 00:44:22,890 --> 00:44:24,750 why should you not be able to gain access 1201 00:44:24,750 --> 00:44:26,190 to all of the resources? 1202 00:44:26,190 --> 00:44:30,480 John Deere tractor, which, you know, 5:00 PM stay tuned. 1203 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,520 It's sort of like, if you can't modify your hardware, 1204 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:33,353 do you actually own it? 1205 00:44:33,353 --> 00:44:34,380 And it comes back to all of that. 1206 00:44:34,380 --> 00:44:37,200 So it really is breaking out of a sandbox. 1207 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:38,582 Or I thought about today in the shower, 1208 00:44:38,582 --> 00:44:39,930 it's not even a sandbox. 1209 00:44:39,930 --> 00:44:41,370 It's like a playpen. 1210 00:44:41,370 --> 00:44:43,650 They're trying to keep all the children inside 1211 00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:47,100 and not letting you out to actually use their hardware. 1212 00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:49,740 But I still cannot wrap my head around 1213 00:44:49,740 --> 00:44:52,920 why that shouldn't be, other than the fact 1214 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,960 that we know they want to really, 1215 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:55,920 they want to make a lot of money 1216 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,270 and they don't want you to use their hardware. 1217 00:44:57,270 --> 00:44:59,250 So they want you to buy new stuff. 1218 00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:01,860 But, you know, it's just another way 1219 00:45:01,860 --> 00:45:04,050 to make things difficult for us 1220 00:45:04,050 --> 00:45:05,310 that is not necessary, 1221 00:45:05,310 --> 00:45:07,440 other than they want to make money 1222 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,420 and they want to maintain control 1223 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:11,460 of what people do with their stuff, 1224 00:45:11,460 --> 00:45:14,520 which is exactly why I think we're at DEF CON 1225 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,180 to have control of things and break things and make things, 1226 00:45:18,180 --> 00:45:20,217 do things that they weren't intended to. 1227 00:45:20,217 --> 00:45:24,270 And this is just another step in that process. 1228 00:45:24,270 --> 00:45:26,070 - I mean, this affects all different kinds of products. 1229 00:45:26,070 --> 00:45:27,420 We talk a lot about smartphones. 1230 00:45:27,420 --> 00:45:28,620 We talk a lot about laptops, 1231 00:45:28,620 --> 00:45:30,960 'cause those are just things that everybody uses, 1232 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,600 but it's also home appliances, agricultural equipment, 1233 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:34,620 heavy equipment. 1234 00:45:34,620 --> 00:45:39,480 Can we just talk, are there companies, vendors, OEMs 1235 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,253 that are doing this right? 1236 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,140 And are there OEMs who are maybe on the road 1237 00:45:46,140 --> 00:45:47,370 to doing things right? 1238 00:45:47,370 --> 00:45:50,040 And are there OEMs who are totally 1239 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:51,390 lost in the woods on this? 1240 00:45:51,390 --> 00:45:53,670 Kyle, I think that's a good question for you. 1241 00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:57,330 - Yeah. Well, I mean, the heroes are probably the startups, 1242 00:45:57,330 --> 00:45:59,880 the folks like Fairphone out of Netherlands 1243 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:03,750 has a super repairable modular phone. 1244 00:46:03,750 --> 00:46:06,090 Then you have Framework with- 1245 00:46:06,090 --> 00:46:07,800 Anyone Framework customers here? 1246 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:08,633 No? 1247 00:46:08,633 --> 00:46:09,466 Awesome. 1248 00:46:09,466 --> 00:46:10,502 In the back. 1249 00:46:10,502 --> 00:46:11,335 Yeah. 1250 00:46:11,335 --> 00:46:12,403 - [Louis] Check out Framework laptop. 1251 00:46:12,403 --> 00:46:14,250 - Framework is killer. 1252 00:46:14,250 --> 00:46:16,890 What I love about Framework, I mean, amongst other things 1253 00:46:16,890 --> 00:46:19,080 is super modular, modular parts, everything else. 1254 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,880 But if you upgrade the laptop, 1255 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:22,890 you take your board out of your old laptop, 1256 00:46:22,890 --> 00:46:25,470 put the new board in and then the board that you upgraded 1257 00:46:25,470 --> 00:46:27,150 is a full blown standalone PC. 1258 00:46:27,150 --> 00:46:28,200 You could 3d print a case 1259 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,950 and you use it as another computer. 1260 00:46:30,810 --> 00:46:32,790 This, computers are modular, 1261 00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:34,620 why the hell aren't we doing this all the time? 1262 00:46:34,620 --> 00:46:37,890 So, you have startups paving the path, 1263 00:46:37,890 --> 00:46:42,481 but now as right to repair laws are starting to get passed, 1264 00:46:42,481 --> 00:46:45,540 we are starting to see some companies come to us. 1265 00:46:45,540 --> 00:46:48,060 So far this year, iFixit has launched partnerships 1266 00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:52,350 with Microsoft, with Google and with Samsung, 1267 00:46:52,350 --> 00:46:54,750 and Valve with the Steam Deck, 1268 00:46:54,750 --> 00:46:56,913 which is probably the most important one 1269 00:46:56,913 --> 00:46:59,460 where we're distributing parts for them. 1270 00:46:59,460 --> 00:47:02,910 So we're starting to see movement, 1271 00:47:02,910 --> 00:47:05,580 but we have to get this from the fringe to mainstream, 1272 00:47:05,580 --> 00:47:07,410 and having some of these large manufacturers 1273 00:47:07,410 --> 00:47:10,253 very grudgingly come on board and start to work with us 1274 00:47:10,253 --> 00:47:12,163 is important. 1275 00:47:12,163 --> 00:47:13,650 - Corynne, I mean, one of the things 1276 00:47:13,650 --> 00:47:17,360 that companies are doing a lot now is things like 1277 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,360 putting little trademarks or logos 1278 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,542 on even really tiny parts so that they can, 1279 00:47:26,542 --> 00:47:29,940 to the point about counterfeit parts versus authentic parts 1280 00:47:29,940 --> 00:47:30,773 and whatever. 1281 00:47:30,773 --> 00:47:34,350 Talk about how they're really trying to frustrate 1282 00:47:34,350 --> 00:47:38,462 the repair, the aftermarket ecosystem for parts 1283 00:47:38,462 --> 00:47:42,900 around what you need to do repair, 1284 00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:45,630 and what the legal theory behind that is. 1285 00:47:45,630 --> 00:47:49,350 - Yeah, so it's a longstanding practice 1286 00:47:49,350 --> 00:47:51,660 from sort of the creative industries, 1287 00:47:51,660 --> 00:47:55,001 the traditional Hollywood copyright industries, 1288 00:47:55,001 --> 00:47:57,382 if you can't get it via copyright, 1289 00:47:57,382 --> 00:47:59,100 see what you can get via trademark. 1290 00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:02,520 The good thing about trademarks is they last forever. 1291 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:03,810 As long as you maintain them, 1292 00:48:03,810 --> 00:48:05,100 as long as you're using the mark 1293 00:48:05,100 --> 00:48:06,210 in connection with whatever 1294 00:48:06,210 --> 00:48:09,230 the good is in commerce, there's no term limit. 1295 00:48:09,230 --> 00:48:11,070 As you all probably know, the copyright term limit 1296 00:48:11,070 --> 00:48:13,140 is ridiculous anyway, 1297 00:48:13,140 --> 00:48:15,270 'cause it can be up to 90 years, 1298 00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:17,760 but trademark, Coca-Cola has had trademarks 1299 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,230 for 120 years now. 1300 00:48:19,230 --> 00:48:22,080 They're maintaining, maybe close to 120. 1301 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,440 So the idea is, yeah, okay, well maybe copyright 1302 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,470 isn't completely helping us, but if we put our trademark 1303 00:48:28,470 --> 00:48:30,542 on every single little bitty thing, 1304 00:48:30,542 --> 00:48:34,110 then we can go after folks 1305 00:48:34,110 --> 00:48:36,243 who might be providing an alternative, 1306 00:48:37,110 --> 00:48:41,340 but maybe are also using the work or using the object 1307 00:48:41,340 --> 00:48:43,590 in a way that we didn't authorize. 1308 00:48:43,590 --> 00:48:44,497 And then we can say, 1309 00:48:44,497 --> 00:48:46,780 "Okay, well that is a trademark violation 1310 00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:50,640 'cause we have the right to control the use 1311 00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:52,200 of our market and how it's used." 1312 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,552 And so you can use it downstream 1313 00:48:54,552 --> 00:48:56,490 or you can go after people 1314 00:48:56,490 --> 00:48:58,770 who are trying to resell those parts, 1315 00:48:58,770 --> 00:49:00,210 who have managed to break things apart 1316 00:49:00,210 --> 00:49:01,860 and they want to sell it on eBay or whatever. 1317 00:49:01,860 --> 00:49:05,377 And then so they'll go and go after them and say, 1318 00:49:05,377 --> 00:49:08,640 "You're not an authorized seller of this good," 1319 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,500 and they'll shut you down. 1320 00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:13,200 And the thing about it that is worth thinking about 1321 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,920 is because very often a lot of this doesn't happen 1322 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,170 one to one, but rather via platforms. 1323 00:49:19,170 --> 00:49:21,540 So if you're making parts available, 1324 00:49:21,540 --> 00:49:23,190 maybe you make it available on eBay, 1325 00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:24,669 well then, they're not going to talk to you. 1326 00:49:24,669 --> 00:49:25,680 Why are gonna talk to you? 1327 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:26,580 That's too much trouble. 1328 00:49:26,580 --> 00:49:28,620 They're just going to send a note to eBay, 1329 00:49:28,620 --> 00:49:30,512 and eBay will take it down. 1330 00:49:30,512 --> 00:49:33,420 They will take down the shop or Etsy or whatever. 1331 00:49:33,420 --> 00:49:36,570 It's a way of bypassing actually trying to go 1332 00:49:36,570 --> 00:49:39,390 after the individual directly, you go after the platform, 1333 00:49:39,390 --> 00:49:42,240 who's much more vulnerable and less interested 1334 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:44,913 probably in defending any given seller, 1335 00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:50,100 because the seller's probably not 1336 00:49:50,100 --> 00:49:51,180 giving them very much money, right? 1337 00:49:51,180 --> 00:49:52,890 They want to preserve their entire platform 1338 00:49:52,890 --> 00:49:54,600 and they don't want to get in litigation. 1339 00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,120 So it's just better to take it down. 1340 00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:58,134 - If you open an iPhone or if you look at 1341 00:49:58,134 --> 00:50:02,850 one of iFixit's teardowns, you'll see just about every part 1342 00:50:02,850 --> 00:50:05,460 inside the iPhone has the Apple logo on it. 1343 00:50:05,460 --> 00:50:09,123 And I met some engineers who had worked on iPhone, 1344 00:50:10,020 --> 00:50:11,497 were out of their seven year NDA, and I was like, 1345 00:50:11,497 --> 00:50:12,810 "Why do you guys do that? 1346 00:50:12,810 --> 00:50:13,950 Is there any engineering? 1347 00:50:13,950 --> 00:50:15,540 Is there any supply chain reason for that?" 1348 00:50:15,540 --> 00:50:17,400 And then he said, "I have no idea why." 1349 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:19,080 Well, I'll tell you the reason why is 1350 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,510 to make it difficult for people like Louis and I 1351 00:50:21,510 --> 00:50:23,370 to get parts across borders. 1352 00:50:23,370 --> 00:50:25,770 The presumption at US Customs is 1353 00:50:25,770 --> 00:50:27,900 that you are guilty until proven innocent. 1354 00:50:27,900 --> 00:50:30,390 And you have to show that you have permission 1355 00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:32,580 from the trademark holder to be moving that trademark 1356 00:50:32,580 --> 00:50:33,900 across the border. 1357 00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:38,130 So when they put the Apple logo on a flex on a display, 1358 00:50:38,130 --> 00:50:39,840 how does that limit you? 1359 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,420 - So let's say somebody buys an iPhone in China, 1360 00:50:42,420 --> 00:50:44,460 they take all the parts of that legally purchased 1361 00:50:44,460 --> 00:50:45,390 iPhone in China, 1362 00:50:45,390 --> 00:50:46,980 and then they sell them separately 1363 00:50:46,980 --> 00:50:48,420 to someone in America. 1364 00:50:48,420 --> 00:50:52,050 They will be seized because they'll say 1365 00:50:52,050 --> 00:50:54,390 that all of those parts were counterfeit 1366 00:50:54,390 --> 00:50:55,590 because it has an Apple logo on it. 1367 00:50:55,590 --> 00:50:56,880 And since you're not on the list of people 1368 00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:57,900 that should be getting those parts, 1369 00:50:57,900 --> 00:50:59,730 then surely that must mean that it is counterfeit. 1370 00:50:59,730 --> 00:51:02,160 It's assumed counterfeit unless you are 1371 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:03,450 on that particular list. 1372 00:51:03,450 --> 00:51:04,896 So even if I'm importing parts, whether 1373 00:51:04,896 --> 00:51:07,830 they're used or they came from an actual device 1374 00:51:07,830 --> 00:51:08,970 that somebody bought in that country 1375 00:51:08,970 --> 00:51:10,620 that they're parting out for profit, 1376 00:51:10,620 --> 00:51:11,760 you can't import them. 1377 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:13,800 They have to find a way to grind the logo off of it. 1378 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:15,450 And if they don't grind the logo off of it, 1379 00:51:15,450 --> 00:51:16,950 then you wind up getting in trouble. 1380 00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:18,810 This is a particular problem when you're talking 1381 00:51:18,810 --> 00:51:20,130 about something like a display assembly, 1382 00:51:20,130 --> 00:51:23,370 where they grind the logo into the back of the case 1383 00:51:23,370 --> 00:51:25,290 so that you're not able to actually import it. 1384 00:51:25,290 --> 00:51:27,660 So you usually wind up having to make the package 1385 00:51:27,660 --> 00:51:29,940 so annoying that they just don't open it 1386 00:51:29,940 --> 00:51:31,200 to see what the logo is. 1387 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,570 And you'll see, you probably get packages like this, 1388 00:51:33,570 --> 00:51:34,650 where it's been taped over 1389 00:51:34,650 --> 00:51:37,590 and has 10 or 20 layers of cardboard. 1390 00:51:37,590 --> 00:51:39,630 My personal favorite was when they actually 1391 00:51:39,630 --> 00:51:40,680 shipped me display assemblies. 1392 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,290 What they did is they put them inside 1393 00:51:43,290 --> 00:51:44,430 of laptop coolers. 1394 00:51:44,430 --> 00:51:45,510 So they have these laptop coolers, 1395 00:51:45,510 --> 00:51:47,190 little fans that you put under the laptop, 1396 00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:49,050 they broke it, they broke the fan blades, 1397 00:51:49,050 --> 00:51:51,180 and they put my parts inside of it. 1398 00:51:51,180 --> 00:51:53,310 Just find all these ridiculously creative ways 1399 00:51:53,310 --> 00:51:54,210 to get around Customs. 1400 00:51:54,210 --> 00:51:55,200 And it's not that hard. 1401 00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,180 I mean, it's kind of getting something past the TSA, 1402 00:51:57,180 --> 00:51:58,847 which is, you know, fairly simple. 1403 00:51:58,847 --> 00:52:00,846 - [Paul] Corynne, how can they do that? 1404 00:52:00,846 --> 00:52:05,503 Why is Customs and Border Protection in the business 1405 00:52:07,620 --> 00:52:12,620 of helping Apple to suppress the total legal movement 1406 00:52:12,787 --> 00:52:14,430 of aftermarket parts? 1407 00:52:14,430 --> 00:52:15,880 - [Joe] Federal jobs program. 1408 00:52:17,130 --> 00:52:22,130 - Well actually you'd be shocked how much federal money 1409 00:52:22,620 --> 00:52:25,300 and resources are spent policing IP 1410 00:52:26,310 --> 00:52:28,920 when you think they should be doing something else, 1411 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,390 and really you think Homeland Security, 1412 00:52:30,390 --> 00:52:31,500 what does that have to do with anything? 1413 00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:34,688 Homeland security is seizing websites 1414 00:52:34,688 --> 00:52:36,990 that are involved in copyright infringement. 1415 00:52:36,990 --> 00:52:39,870 This is because they're under tremendous pressure 1416 00:52:39,870 --> 00:52:43,020 from major IP owners to be engaging 1417 00:52:43,020 --> 00:52:44,100 in this kind of activity. 1418 00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:45,990 And they're responsive to that, 1419 00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:47,460 because what will happen is 1420 00:52:47,460 --> 00:52:49,207 IP owners will come to them and say, 1421 00:52:49,207 --> 00:52:53,760 "You have no idea that the piracy, the counterfeit, 1422 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,190 the fraud, you have to protect." 1423 00:52:56,190 --> 00:52:57,660 And the argument will be, 1424 00:52:57,660 --> 00:53:00,060 you are protecting consumers 1425 00:53:00,060 --> 00:53:01,500 from getting counterfeit parts. 1426 00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:05,370 You're protecting consumers from accessing pirate sites, 1427 00:53:05,370 --> 00:53:07,140 not realizing it, you are protecting. 1428 00:53:07,140 --> 00:53:09,420 That will be the idea, you are protecting 1429 00:53:09,420 --> 00:53:12,120 the security of Americans. 1430 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:13,170 And I do think most of us, 1431 00:53:13,170 --> 00:53:14,940 when we think of Department of Homeland Security, 1432 00:53:14,940 --> 00:53:16,350 we actually don't think that's what they're doing 1433 00:53:16,350 --> 00:53:17,183 with their time. 1434 00:53:17,183 --> 00:53:19,119 And also when we think of the Customs and Border 1435 00:53:19,119 --> 00:53:21,270 enforcement, I mean, yeah, they are going to 1436 00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:22,860 police counterfeits across borders. 1437 00:53:22,860 --> 00:53:24,369 That's not a crazy thing for them to do. 1438 00:53:24,369 --> 00:53:26,283 It's just perhaps- 1439 00:53:27,180 --> 00:53:28,110 - gone a little too far, 1440 00:53:28,110 --> 00:53:30,210 - maybe gone a little too far in priorities, 1441 00:53:30,210 --> 00:53:32,079 - And they, I mean. Customs is a thing where, 1442 00:53:32,079 --> 00:53:35,100 as a big company, you can pay Customs money 1443 00:53:35,100 --> 00:53:37,740 to pay for their staff to do their enforcement. 1444 00:53:37,740 --> 00:53:40,620 It's very convenient if you have buckets of money. 1445 00:53:40,620 --> 00:53:41,550 - [Paul] Okay. Final question. 1446 00:53:41,550 --> 00:53:42,630 And then I want to go to some questions 1447 00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:43,697 from the audience. 1448 00:53:43,697 --> 00:53:46,890 And this, I think Joe, Kyle, Louis, 1449 00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:48,849 probably good question for you. 1450 00:53:48,849 --> 00:53:53,849 How do we promote this not only right to repair, so yes, 1451 00:53:54,097 --> 00:53:57,420 promote right to repair laws, get them passed, 1452 00:53:57,420 --> 00:54:00,000 but kind of what Kyle was talking about, this idea, 1453 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,470 and Joe, that you talk about a lot, 1454 00:54:01,470 --> 00:54:03,270 of getting people to start thinking 1455 00:54:03,270 --> 00:54:05,610 about their devices in a different way, 1456 00:54:05,610 --> 00:54:09,450 not being afraid to open them up, not buying the lie, 1457 00:54:09,450 --> 00:54:11,220 like it's cheaper to just replace it, 1458 00:54:11,220 --> 00:54:14,250 it's cheaper to just replace it, and actually kind of start 1459 00:54:14,250 --> 00:54:17,310 thinking about these as things that they own 1460 00:54:17,310 --> 00:54:19,960 and things that they have the right and the ability 1461 00:54:20,987 --> 00:54:22,770 to fix themselves or get a neighbor to fix 1462 00:54:22,770 --> 00:54:23,883 or get Louis to fix. 1463 00:54:24,930 --> 00:54:27,267 - I mean, I think what Louis is doing 1464 00:54:27,267 --> 00:54:31,380 and what Kyle is doing are sort of the main kind of things 1465 00:54:31,380 --> 00:54:32,640 of getting people to realize, oh, 1466 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:34,016 you can fix stuff. 1467 00:54:34,016 --> 00:54:38,910 Ever since being a kid, most of us want to open stuff up 1468 00:54:38,910 --> 00:54:39,990 and see how it works, 1469 00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:41,190 but not everybody does that. 1470 00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:43,687 Most people buy a device, they take it for granted and say, 1471 00:54:43,687 --> 00:54:46,020 "Oh, some magical engineers created this thing. 1472 00:54:46,020 --> 00:54:47,550 It's perfect." 1473 00:54:47,550 --> 00:54:49,140 And not realizing they can open it up. 1474 00:54:49,140 --> 00:54:50,670 And, of course, when vendors are 1475 00:54:50,670 --> 00:54:52,950 making things harder to open and they add 1476 00:54:52,950 --> 00:54:55,440 all sorts of problems from a trademark perspective 1477 00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,170 or anti-tamper mechanisms to make it self-destruct 1478 00:54:58,170 --> 00:55:00,000 or delete something when you open it, 1479 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,450 there's all these things that prevent us from doing it. 1480 00:55:03,450 --> 00:55:07,350 But again, it all comes down to profit and control. 1481 00:55:07,350 --> 00:55:10,867 And I think really spreading the message to people of 1482 00:55:10,867 --> 00:55:13,110 "Look, you can open stuff, you can modify stuff." 1483 00:55:13,110 --> 00:55:15,570 You shouldn't have to go to Shenzhen 1484 00:55:15,570 --> 00:55:18,630 to find components that you can bring back. 1485 00:55:18,630 --> 00:55:21,213 If you've seen Strange Parts YouTube channel, 1486 00:55:22,149 --> 00:55:25,200 there's people repairing things and modifying things, 1487 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,450 but it shouldn't be this difficult to do. 1488 00:55:27,450 --> 00:55:30,090 Like Louis shouldn't have to have people 1489 00:55:30,090 --> 00:55:31,260 smuggle parts through. 1490 00:55:31,260 --> 00:55:34,200 It should be as accessible to us as it is to other people. 1491 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,360 When I, talking about Shenzhen, I was there 1492 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,810 and if you've ever can go to the SEG market 1493 00:55:39,810 --> 00:55:41,430 and Bunnie Huang has written about this a lot, 1494 00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:44,190 and you go and it's floors and floors and floors 1495 00:55:44,190 --> 00:55:47,040 of different components for different projects. 1496 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:48,960 And the repair culture is a lot different there. 1497 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,960 And the access to information and information sharing 1498 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:53,130 is a lot different there. 1499 00:55:53,130 --> 00:55:54,540 And I kind of put it on myself. 1500 00:55:54,540 --> 00:55:56,490 I showed up and I had 90 minutes 1501 00:55:56,490 --> 00:55:59,520 and I wanted to see could I find schematics 1502 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:00,870 for like an iPhone? 1503 00:56:00,870 --> 00:56:02,460 'Cause I had heard you could do it. 1504 00:56:02,460 --> 00:56:05,400 And through talking to different people at different booths, 1505 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,080 and talk to this person, talk to this person. 1506 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:08,640 I had my iPhone trying to translate 1507 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:10,680 'cause even the Chinese word for schematics 1508 00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:11,850 is not schematic. 1509 00:56:11,850 --> 00:56:14,040 It's like visual drawing of something. 1510 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,971 So I ended up going through and finding books of schematics 1511 00:56:16,971 --> 00:56:21,690 that had confidential information, blah, blah, blah. 1512 00:56:21,690 --> 00:56:24,180 But either somebody had taken those out of the factory 1513 00:56:24,180 --> 00:56:25,860 or they had reverse engineered the board, 1514 00:56:25,860 --> 00:56:27,387 but it shouldn't be that hard, right? 1515 00:56:27,387 --> 00:56:29,370 And I finally got them and, I guess, 1516 00:56:29,370 --> 00:56:31,050 technically smuggled them over the border 1517 00:56:31,050 --> 00:56:33,270 and brought them back to the US, 1518 00:56:33,270 --> 00:56:34,170 but why? 1519 00:56:34,170 --> 00:56:35,760 Most people are not going to be able to do that. 1520 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,210 So they're going to rely on Louis and iFixit and other- 1521 00:56:39,210 --> 00:56:41,070 like iFixit shouldn't have to reverse engineer 1522 00:56:41,070 --> 00:56:43,170 old Toshiba laptops to make their own manuals. 1523 00:56:43,170 --> 00:56:44,520 That's just ridiculous. 1524 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,710 The whole thing is just mind boggling, 1525 00:56:46,710 --> 00:56:48,520 but I think it all sort of boils down to 1526 00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,730 why we're hackers in the first place 1527 00:56:50,730 --> 00:56:53,139 and why we're here is to educate people 1528 00:56:53,139 --> 00:56:55,650 and push against corporations that are 1529 00:56:55,650 --> 00:56:59,730 trying to do something to make the world a place 1530 00:56:59,730 --> 00:57:01,780 that's better for them than it is for us. 1531 00:57:03,150 --> 00:57:04,500 - [Paul] Louis, Kyle, anything to add? 1532 00:57:04,500 --> 00:57:05,880 - I think it comes down to getting people 1533 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:06,713 personally invested in it. 1534 00:57:06,713 --> 00:57:08,520 You know, I think that there's two different types 1535 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:09,353 of activism. 1536 00:57:09,353 --> 00:57:11,280 There's the Greta Thunberg type of activism with 1537 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,640 how dare you, which results in more Ford F350 diesels 1538 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:15,990 rolling coal on my electric car. 1539 00:57:15,990 --> 00:57:17,880 And I run through Pennsylvania than ever before. 1540 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:19,380 And then there's the type where you try to get people 1541 00:57:19,380 --> 00:57:20,370 personally invested. 1542 00:57:20,370 --> 00:57:23,490 So part of what I try to do with my YouTube channel is 1543 00:57:23,490 --> 00:57:24,900 turn it into a little bit of performance, 1544 00:57:24,900 --> 00:57:26,280 like Mr. Rogers or Bob Ross. 1545 00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,508 You know, when I started posting repair videos to YouTube, 1546 00:57:28,508 --> 00:57:30,330 I was looking for them myself 1547 00:57:30,330 --> 00:57:32,070 and they would always be 90 seconds 1548 00:57:32,070 --> 00:57:34,939 have techno music playing super fast, very boring, 1549 00:57:34,939 --> 00:57:37,980 there was no soul, nothing fun about it. 1550 00:57:37,980 --> 00:57:40,470 So I would try to make these little nine to 15 minute clips 1551 00:57:40,470 --> 00:57:41,850 where it seemed interesting. 1552 00:57:41,850 --> 00:57:44,340 We explain the entire concept in a way that a seventh grader 1553 00:57:44,340 --> 00:57:45,300 could understand. 1554 00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:47,070 We would go through every single thing that we did. 1555 00:57:47,070 --> 00:57:48,360 We try to make it a little bit interesting. 1556 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:49,920 Talk about current events while we're doing it 1557 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,590 and also not leave anything out. 1558 00:57:52,590 --> 00:57:55,530 So when I say make it, get people personally invested, 1559 00:57:55,530 --> 00:57:57,810 I mean also do it in a way that is profitable. 1560 00:57:57,810 --> 00:58:00,210 Somebody who watches this stuff could start charging 1561 00:58:00,210 --> 00:58:02,490 two or three hundred dollars for 15 minutes of their time 1562 00:58:02,490 --> 00:58:04,350 to do that type of work themselves. 1563 00:58:04,350 --> 00:58:06,030 Or they could use that to fix their own device 1564 00:58:06,030 --> 00:58:07,080 and save a few thousand bucks. 1565 00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,090 And once you've saved somebody a thousand bucks 1566 00:58:09,090 --> 00:58:10,230 they're personally invested, 1567 00:58:10,230 --> 00:58:12,330 or once somebody is actually watching, 1568 00:58:12,330 --> 00:58:14,190 going this is kind of entertaining, this is kind of cool. 1569 00:58:14,190 --> 00:58:15,690 And then they watch a hundred of those videos. 1570 00:58:15,690 --> 00:58:18,810 And then I say, by the way, these may no longer exist 1571 00:58:18,810 --> 00:58:21,840 because the company is taking away our ability to do that. 1572 00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,330 You've kind of gotten their personal investment. 1573 00:58:24,330 --> 00:58:26,400 You said that this is what is gonna be taken away. 1574 00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,320 You're gonna stop being able to enjoy this 1575 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:29,490 if this goes away. 1576 00:58:29,490 --> 00:58:31,680 So I think you have to get people as personally invested 1577 00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:32,520 as humanly possible. 1578 00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,590 And that starts by allowing them to save money, 1579 00:58:34,590 --> 00:58:35,790 allowing them to make money, 1580 00:58:35,790 --> 00:58:37,320 and allowing them to be entertained 1581 00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:38,970 through sharing your passion. 1582 00:58:38,970 --> 00:58:41,550 And I think that that's something that is 1583 00:58:41,550 --> 00:58:43,800 more going be on the cultural side than the legal side. 1584 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,050 I do a lot for right to repair on the legal side. 1585 00:58:46,050 --> 00:58:47,040 But at the end of the day, 1586 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:48,630 a right to repairable gets released that says 1587 00:58:48,630 --> 00:58:49,860 make things available. 1588 00:58:49,860 --> 00:58:52,177 Samsung tells Kyle, well, we're gonna give you 1589 00:58:52,177 --> 00:58:55,080 $213 batteries welded to the screen. 1590 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:56,730 There's an element of malicious compliance 1591 00:58:56,730 --> 00:58:57,780 that it's always going to be there, 1592 00:58:57,780 --> 00:59:00,210 and getting people personally invested in all of this 1593 00:59:00,210 --> 00:59:03,210 so that companies like Framework exists 1594 00:59:03,210 --> 00:59:05,130 and are actually economically viable. 1595 00:59:05,130 --> 00:59:08,100 People want to buy that because they value repairability 1596 00:59:08,100 --> 00:59:09,390 to the point where they can actually 1597 00:59:09,390 --> 00:59:11,010 make schematics available for their products 1598 00:59:11,010 --> 00:59:12,180 and parts and everything else. 1599 00:59:12,180 --> 00:59:14,610 That's what's going to be what, I think, moves this forward. 1600 00:59:14,610 --> 00:59:17,220 - Well, I think also the amount of views on your channel 1601 00:59:17,220 --> 00:59:19,200 sort of validates the fact that people want to 1602 00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:20,310 fix their own stuff, right? 1603 00:59:20,310 --> 00:59:23,910 It's like, that's what the companies are afraid of 1604 00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:25,140 because if they're going to lose money 1605 00:59:25,140 --> 00:59:27,030 on their authorized dealerships or whatever, 1606 00:59:27,030 --> 00:59:29,590 it only proves the point that, oh, 1607 00:59:29,590 --> 00:59:30,423 - Or watch empty real estate. 1608 00:59:30,423 --> 00:59:31,256 - What's that? 1609 00:59:31,256 --> 00:59:32,089 - Or watch empty real estate. 1610 00:59:32,089 --> 00:59:32,922 - Well, yeah. 1611 00:59:34,639 --> 00:59:35,984 - [Paul] Okay. 1612 00:59:35,984 --> 00:59:37,119 - [Corynne] Can I say one more thing? 1613 00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:38,167 - [Paul] Of course. 1614 00:59:38,167 --> 00:59:40,590 - So one of the things that we talk about a lot at EFF 1615 00:59:40,590 --> 00:59:44,490 is sometimes you have a need to speak tech to power 1616 00:59:44,490 --> 00:59:45,660 and what that means. 1617 00:59:45,660 --> 00:59:49,320 And it's kind of what, I think, Louis did to some extent. 1618 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,900 There are times, particularly at the state level, 1619 00:59:51,900 --> 00:59:54,960 where what we need is for someone to comment and testify, 1620 00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:57,360 or even just talk to their local assembly person, 1621 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,480 which most people don't do and kind of don't want to do. 1622 01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:01,860 And I don't blame them. 1623 01:00:01,860 --> 01:00:03,540 I understand it's not that fun, 1624 01:00:03,540 --> 01:00:05,670 but sometimes that's really what's needed is 1625 01:00:05,670 --> 01:00:08,520 for us to have a technologist on the ground 1626 01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,707 who can go and just talk to their representative and say, 1627 01:00:11,707 --> 01:00:13,440 "I'm gonna tell you the truth 1628 01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:16,320 because I know it and this is my profession 1629 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:17,490 and this is what I do." 1630 01:00:17,490 --> 01:00:21,540 And it's actually amazing to me how responsive, 1631 01:00:21,540 --> 01:00:25,080 especially at the local level, that folks can be, 1632 01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:28,290 'cause they don't hear from that many people. 1633 01:00:28,290 --> 01:00:31,650 And to be honest, also from some crazy people. 1634 01:00:31,650 --> 01:00:33,720 And then they hear from a bunch of really expensive 1635 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,660 corporate lobbyists who are really good at talking 1636 01:00:36,660 --> 01:00:38,970 and despite the mumble mumble crazy 1637 01:00:38,970 --> 01:00:41,010 that we heard earlier, but actually they're pretty good 1638 01:00:41,010 --> 01:00:42,600 at it and they give them money. 1639 01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:45,870 So speaking tech to power is actually a place 1640 01:00:45,870 --> 01:00:47,310 where the people in this community 1641 01:00:47,310 --> 01:00:48,570 can be really effective. 1642 01:00:48,570 --> 01:00:50,670 - Yeah. I mean, that's one thing that struck me 1643 01:00:50,670 --> 01:00:52,560 in this whole process is how, 1644 01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,080 when you go in and talk to legislators, you know, 1645 01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,210 they're definitely open to hearing your opinion, 1646 01:00:57,210 --> 01:01:02,210 but you also get a real sense of how much their day to day 1647 01:01:03,450 --> 01:01:07,050 is occupied by lobbyists, lawyers, PR people working 1648 01:01:07,050 --> 01:01:08,790 on behalf of moneyed interests, 1649 01:01:08,790 --> 01:01:11,640 whether those are specific corporations, industry groups, 1650 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:12,510 what have you. 1651 01:01:12,510 --> 01:01:15,000 Those people are there outside the john 1652 01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,130 when they come out, like talk to them on their way back 1653 01:01:17,130 --> 01:01:20,580 to their office, they're there taking them out to lunch, 1654 01:01:20,580 --> 01:01:23,310 and that has an impact. 1655 01:01:23,310 --> 01:01:25,230 And you, we have lives. 1656 01:01:25,230 --> 01:01:28,380 We have work, we can't hang around state houses and lobby. 1657 01:01:28,380 --> 01:01:30,603 So we do need to work collectively. 1658 01:01:31,980 --> 01:01:32,813 Yes, Joe. 1659 01:01:32,813 --> 01:01:33,900 - I'm curious about something. 1660 01:01:33,900 --> 01:01:37,290 Is there anybody in the audience that works at a product 1661 01:01:37,290 --> 01:01:39,210 vendor, you know, somebody that's designing products 1662 01:01:39,210 --> 01:01:40,043 and selling them? 1663 01:01:40,043 --> 01:01:43,260 So maybe, you don't have to say if you have an opinion 1664 01:01:43,260 --> 01:01:45,900 about right to repair, but working from that side 1665 01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:50,790 actually as a consumer product vendor or anything? 1666 01:01:50,790 --> 01:01:51,623 Yeah, there's a couple. 1667 01:01:51,623 --> 01:01:54,210 So there's something that came to mind. 1668 01:01:54,210 --> 01:01:57,060 So Crowd Supply is a website promoting 1669 01:01:57,060 --> 01:01:58,557 open hardware development and crowdfunding, 1670 01:01:58,557 --> 01:01:59,580 and they have something called 1671 01:01:59,580 --> 01:02:01,530 the Proclamation of User Rights, 1672 01:02:01,530 --> 01:02:02,790 that not only are they just 1673 01:02:02,790 --> 01:02:04,200 going take any project, 1674 01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,123 say a Kickstarter might or Indiegogo, 1675 01:02:07,230 --> 01:02:09,270 they have a list of like certain things 1676 01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:10,680 that protect user rights. 1677 01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:14,250 So I have it on here, like curiosity and independence 1678 01:02:14,250 --> 01:02:17,130 and association and longevity and transfer and discourse 1679 01:02:17,130 --> 01:02:18,630 and privacy and security. 1680 01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:21,750 And if you're from those worlds of product development, 1681 01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:24,660 you should take a look at that list of user rights. 1682 01:02:24,660 --> 01:02:27,600 And I think it's really interesting if besides talking to 1683 01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,217 the lobbyists, working within the organization and saying, 1684 01:02:30,217 --> 01:02:32,430 "Look, this is how products should be designed." 1685 01:02:32,430 --> 01:02:35,280 We can still make a profit selling our product, 1686 01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:38,850 but if we follow these rules, like Framework and some of the 1687 01:02:38,850 --> 01:02:40,470 projects that Bunnie Huang are working on 1688 01:02:40,470 --> 01:02:42,540 and there's all of these smaller projects. 1689 01:02:42,540 --> 01:02:47,540 But if this type of mindset can go into real company 1690 01:02:47,580 --> 01:02:49,950 consumer design, that would be amazing. 1691 01:02:49,950 --> 01:02:52,770 And then sort of its for the people, right? 1692 01:02:52,770 --> 01:02:55,020 And I think they Crowd Supply did a really good job 1693 01:02:55,020 --> 01:02:57,030 of sort of explaining these different steps. 1694 01:02:57,030 --> 01:02:59,430 So even using that as a resource or like a starting point, 1695 01:02:59,430 --> 01:03:01,410 maybe, I have no idea 'cause I'm not in that world, 1696 01:03:01,410 --> 01:03:03,630 but maybe that's something that is worth 1697 01:03:03,630 --> 01:03:05,280 trying to start conversations. 1698 01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:06,450 - [Paul] Kyle is going to have something to say on this, 1699 01:03:06,450 --> 01:03:07,283 I think. 1700 01:03:07,283 --> 01:03:10,260 - Yeah, at iFixit we're doing a lot of that. 1701 01:03:10,260 --> 01:03:12,750 We do a lot of consulting work with companies. 1702 01:03:12,750 --> 01:03:16,020 There's a lot of, we're starting to see the pendulum swing. 1703 01:03:16,020 --> 01:03:17,250 And so there's a lot of interest. 1704 01:03:17,250 --> 01:03:18,720 How do I design repairable products? 1705 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,480 How do I design safe, replaceable batteries? 1706 01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:23,760 What does it look like to set up a part supply chain? 1707 01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:24,930 We are at the beginning of that. 1708 01:03:24,930 --> 01:03:27,780 We need a lot more so as you are talking with your friends 1709 01:03:27,780 --> 01:03:29,730 that work in engineering at these companies, 1710 01:03:29,730 --> 01:03:31,950 this can be done, right? 1711 01:03:31,950 --> 01:03:33,870 We can design repairable long lasting hardware. 1712 01:03:33,870 --> 01:03:35,127 We just have to decide to do it, 1713 01:03:35,127 --> 01:03:36,720 and we have to make the case to management. 1714 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:38,340 And so that's what I spend a lot of my time doing, 1715 01:03:38,340 --> 01:03:41,400 is making the case that either the sustainability folks 1716 01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:43,410 or the security folks or the engineers want 1717 01:03:43,410 --> 01:03:45,450 helping them figure out how to make the case to management 1718 01:03:45,450 --> 01:03:47,010 to actually shift business practices. 1719 01:03:47,010 --> 01:03:48,900 - Well, it's sort of coming back around to how it was 1720 01:03:48,900 --> 01:03:50,940 in the '70s and '80s, where you would buy something 1721 01:03:50,940 --> 01:03:51,900 and you get your schematic. 1722 01:03:51,900 --> 01:03:55,140 And your Apple, the first Apple too had schematics 1723 01:03:55,140 --> 01:03:56,610 and you buy prototype cards. 1724 01:03:56,610 --> 01:03:57,750 - It was the default and it was just 1725 01:03:57,750 --> 01:03:59,820 the way everything was done at the beginning 1726 01:03:59,820 --> 01:04:00,690 of the electronics era. 1727 01:04:00,690 --> 01:04:02,220 We have lost our way. 1728 01:04:02,220 --> 01:04:05,176 Now we have to argue our way back onto 1729 01:04:05,176 --> 01:04:06,107 the great narrow path. 1730 01:04:06,107 --> 01:04:07,620 - ]Paul] Yes. And legislate our way back. 1731 01:04:07,620 --> 01:04:10,320 Okay. Are there questions from the audience for our panel? 1732 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:11,153 Oh great. 1733 01:04:12,030 --> 01:04:12,930 We'll start there. 1734 01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:16,353 Front row green shirt. 1735 01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,010 - [Audience Member] I'm a father, and I learned 1736 01:04:26,010 --> 01:04:29,280 how to get curious by taking stuff apart. 1737 01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:34,280 My grandfather had the audio tubes television, 1738 01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:38,070 and he taught me how to tear stuff apart. 1739 01:04:38,070 --> 01:04:42,630 And I took it on to my kids and they became curious 1740 01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:44,130 about technology. 1741 01:04:44,130 --> 01:04:47,610 If I walk around at the schools, I see consumers. 1742 01:04:47,610 --> 01:04:51,120 So consumers are being created instead of creators. 1743 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:52,500 And I think as a community, 1744 01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:57,500 we have like, we need to keep kids curious 1745 01:04:57,630 --> 01:04:59,130 by taking stuff apart. 1746 01:04:59,130 --> 01:05:02,790 Don't be afraid of technology because it helps them 1747 01:05:02,790 --> 01:05:05,310 think about certain issues. 1748 01:05:05,310 --> 01:05:09,420 But it's also like we're saving the planet 1749 01:05:09,420 --> 01:05:14,420 by allowing this to, yeah, change as a community. 1750 01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:19,443 So if you can inspire someone do like classes on school, 1751 01:05:20,490 --> 01:05:23,520 help inspire others, that really helps. 1752 01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:25,800 - And those are the next generation of kids 1753 01:05:25,800 --> 01:05:27,510 that might turn into engineers that then 1754 01:05:27,510 --> 01:05:29,790 work in the companies and have that mindset, 1755 01:05:29,790 --> 01:05:31,800 not the closed mindset, but the open mindsets. 1756 01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:32,700 That's hugely important. 1757 01:05:32,700 --> 01:05:33,968 - [Audience Member] Exactly. 1758 01:05:33,968 --> 01:05:38,730 And there's so many people required in the industry. 1759 01:05:38,730 --> 01:05:42,300 - [Paul] Can we do, yeah, third row and then just move back? 1760 01:05:42,300 --> 01:05:43,150 That'll be great. 1761 01:05:48,690 --> 01:05:50,190 That's a fourth row, but okay. 1762 01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:53,813 - [Audience Member] Hello. 1763 01:05:55,406 --> 01:05:57,256 I'm hoping you can connect some dots here 1764 01:05:57,256 --> 01:06:02,256 'cause the problems that right to repair seems to face 1765 01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,820 you listed was end user license agreements, Customs, 1766 01:06:05,820 --> 01:06:10,820 DRM, exclusivity agreements, and legislation 1767 01:06:11,490 --> 01:06:13,110 I've seen so far only seems to tackle 1768 01:06:13,110 --> 01:06:14,613 maybe one of those. 1769 01:06:16,620 --> 01:06:20,220 Is there any, like what legislative solutions 1770 01:06:20,220 --> 01:06:23,463 are we looking at for especially like EULAs. 1771 01:06:26,220 --> 01:06:27,720 - Sorry. I want to make sure I understand the question. 1772 01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,780 Is it so what legislative solutions are we seeing to the 1773 01:06:30,780 --> 01:06:33,150 various legal impediments? 1774 01:06:33,150 --> 01:06:34,756 - [Audience Member] Yeah. 1775 01:06:34,756 --> 01:06:37,320 'Cause the legislation I've seen so far 1776 01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:41,100 or that you've been advocating for only seems to say, 1777 01:06:41,100 --> 01:06:44,130 we need to make manuals available and things like that. 1778 01:06:44,130 --> 01:06:48,000 I'm not sure how that really solves some of the problems 1779 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,203 that we've had for so long, especially with EULAs, 1780 01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:57,390 where I shouldn't have to really agree to an EULA 1781 01:06:57,390 --> 01:07:00,210 to receive it and use it. 1782 01:07:00,210 --> 01:07:03,090 - Yeah, so there's a couple things in play. 1783 01:07:03,090 --> 01:07:05,760 So you're quite right that the state right to repair laws, 1784 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:06,593 they're great. 1785 01:07:06,593 --> 01:07:07,650 They don't do everything. 1786 01:07:07,650 --> 01:07:08,790 There's way more to be done. 1787 01:07:08,790 --> 01:07:10,320 But it's a start. 1788 01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:11,605 There is in fact- 1789 01:07:11,605 --> 01:07:12,990 - [Paul] Oh, go ahead. 1790 01:07:12,990 --> 01:07:13,823 Sorry. 1791 01:07:13,823 --> 01:07:17,940 - There is a long-standing bill that's been in Congress 1792 01:07:17,940 --> 01:07:21,330 that was introduced by representative Zoe Lofgren 1793 01:07:21,330 --> 01:07:24,570 that would change Section 1201 at least, 1794 01:07:24,570 --> 01:07:26,340 so that if you are circumventing, 1795 01:07:26,340 --> 01:07:27,450 if you're breaking the law, 1796 01:07:27,450 --> 01:07:30,210 in order to make a fair use, 1797 01:07:30,210 --> 01:07:32,250 to do something that's otherwise lawful, 1798 01:07:32,250 --> 01:07:34,380 then it will be lawful. 1799 01:07:34,380 --> 01:07:37,110 And that would be tremendous. 1800 01:07:37,110 --> 01:07:40,260 Unfortunately there's very, very strong opposition to that, 1801 01:07:40,260 --> 01:07:41,760 but that would be tremendous. 1802 01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:44,733 We really need some solutions at the federal level. 1803 01:07:46,350 --> 01:07:49,590 Unfortunately, courts have over and over treated 1804 01:07:49,590 --> 01:07:52,470 end user license agreements like regular negotiated 1805 01:07:52,470 --> 01:07:55,290 contracts and treated them as equally binding 1806 01:07:55,290 --> 01:07:56,850 to regularly negotiated contract. 1807 01:07:56,850 --> 01:07:58,440 And that's ridiculous. 1808 01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,470 And there's more and more folks who are talking about it, 1809 01:08:01,470 --> 01:08:05,100 but that's a thing that's also going to take some action 1810 01:08:05,100 --> 01:08:08,253 at the state level 'cause contract law is state law. 1811 01:08:09,888 --> 01:08:14,400 So, yes, that's why I'm actually mostly hopeful 1812 01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:18,600 that we get rid of Section 1201 anyway in court, 1813 01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:20,610 rather than having to rely on Congress, 1814 01:08:20,610 --> 01:08:22,380 'cause courts are slow, 1815 01:08:22,380 --> 01:08:23,940 Congress is slower. 1816 01:08:23,940 --> 01:08:26,130 - And I would call on all of you, 1817 01:08:26,130 --> 01:08:27,960 if there's something that bothers you, 1818 01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:31,320 I'm just a guy who decided I cared about repair 1819 01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:33,930 and spent a while advocating for this, right? 1820 01:08:33,930 --> 01:08:36,360 Louis started a YouTube channel. 1821 01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:38,880 We're just normal people. 1822 01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:39,980 We're just like the rest of you. 1823 01:08:39,980 --> 01:08:42,000 So if something bothers you, if you want 1824 01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:43,140 to take on the EULA issue, 1825 01:08:43,140 --> 01:08:45,420 it's a major, major issue. 1826 01:08:45,420 --> 01:08:46,740 We need more people working on this. 1827 01:08:46,740 --> 01:08:49,290 There are not enough people in the public advocacy space, 1828 01:08:49,290 --> 01:08:52,680 working to counteract these highly-paid corporate lobbyists. 1829 01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,510 - And to the question on the right to repair laws, 1830 01:08:54,510 --> 01:08:58,050 it's a little bit, it's not just about the repair manuals. 1831 01:08:58,050 --> 01:09:00,570 They also say that you have to provide access to diagnostic 1832 01:09:00,570 --> 01:09:01,403 software. 1833 01:09:01,403 --> 01:09:04,680 And they also say that you need to provide tools to unlock 1834 01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:06,960 digital locks for the purposes of doing repair. 1835 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:08,970 So it isn't just, oh, well you'll get the manual, 1836 01:09:08,970 --> 01:09:09,840 but you're still screwed. 1837 01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:13,080 So, they're more granular than that. 1838 01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:15,600 - The state law is basically give or sell me the tool. 1839 01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:18,540 The federal law that we're working on is make it legal 1840 01:09:18,540 --> 01:09:20,040 for me to whittle my own tool. 1841 01:09:22,170 --> 01:09:23,160 - [Paul] I don't know where the mic guy is. 1842 01:09:23,160 --> 01:09:23,993 Where's the mic guy? 1843 01:09:23,993 --> 01:09:24,826 - [Mic Guy] I've got it here. Yeah. 1844 01:09:24,826 --> 01:09:26,144 - [Paul] There we go. 1845 01:09:26,144 --> 01:09:27,064 - [Audience Member] It's really interesting 1846 01:09:27,064 --> 01:09:28,110 that you mentioned Harley-Davidson, 1847 01:09:28,110 --> 01:09:31,590 because my motorcycle is in the shop right now 1848 01:09:31,590 --> 01:09:33,960 because I tried to tune it, 1849 01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:37,080 and now they've refused to fix the motorcycle. 1850 01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:38,190 It's not even a warranty issue. 1851 01:09:38,190 --> 01:09:41,400 They won't even allow me to pay for a new thing or fix it. 1852 01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:42,750 They said, "Oh you broke it. 1853 01:09:42,750 --> 01:09:44,821 So we'll no longer fix it." 1854 01:09:44,821 --> 01:09:49,821 How do I go about working with Harley-Davidson or whatever 1855 01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:51,113 to say, you know, 1856 01:09:51,113 --> 01:09:53,864 "This is not legal" or what are the laws 1857 01:09:53,864 --> 01:09:56,490 that could protect me in the state of California? 1858 01:09:56,490 --> 01:09:57,744 - [Paul] Don't go alone. I think that's- 1859 01:09:57,744 --> 01:09:59,730 - [Audience Member] Exactly. 1860 01:09:59,730 --> 01:10:01,260 Bring some muscle. 1861 01:10:01,260 --> 01:10:02,276 - Yeah. 1862 01:10:02,276 --> 01:10:03,870 - I mean, we need them to be sharing 1863 01:10:03,870 --> 01:10:05,760 their diagnostic software so at least you've got 1864 01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,610 an even shot at what the dealership is going to do. 1865 01:10:08,610 --> 01:10:11,670 And that's where the Massachusetts existing 1866 01:10:11,670 --> 01:10:13,350 right to repair law and then the updated one 1867 01:10:13,350 --> 01:10:14,940 that's currently being challenged in courts, 1868 01:10:14,940 --> 01:10:16,140 that will help. 1869 01:10:16,140 --> 01:10:17,460 - [Paul] Does it apply to motorcycles? 1870 01:10:17,460 --> 01:10:18,293 I don't- 1871 01:10:19,256 --> 01:10:21,483 - I think it does. 1872 01:10:22,590 --> 01:10:23,793 I believe it does, yeah. 1873 01:10:24,777 --> 01:10:26,550 But that's the right strategy. 1874 01:10:26,550 --> 01:10:27,930 It's at least to get you on an even keel 1875 01:10:27,930 --> 01:10:29,910 with the dealership so that you can maybe 1876 01:10:29,910 --> 01:10:30,960 use their tooling. 1877 01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,030 I would mention from a security perspective, 1878 01:10:33,030 --> 01:10:34,980 once we do have access to their tooling, 1879 01:10:34,980 --> 01:10:37,050 that's a whole nother attack service we can investigate. 1880 01:10:37,050 --> 01:10:38,430 So that's gonna be a lot of fun. 1881 01:10:38,430 --> 01:10:42,390 So expect as right to repair starts to become out there 1882 01:10:42,390 --> 01:10:44,580 and companies are posting diagnostic software, 1883 01:10:44,580 --> 01:10:47,010 you may see some on iFixit soon. 1884 01:10:47,010 --> 01:10:50,280 That's going to be interesting bites to look at. 1885 01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:53,160 - [Paul] Yes. No more security through obscurity. 1886 01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:53,993 Yes. 1887 01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:57,125 Okay. Go ahead. 1888 01:10:57,125 --> 01:11:01,208 - [Audience Member] (indistinct) 1889 01:11:32,550 --> 01:11:35,100 - Just to recast the question so you can all hear, 1890 01:11:35,100 --> 01:11:36,930 he said, yeah, we are a hardware vendor, 1891 01:11:36,930 --> 01:11:39,510 and the product that we sell is regulated. 1892 01:11:39,510 --> 01:11:42,720 We have to have tamperproof mechanisms on the product 1893 01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:44,400 in order to sell it. 1894 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:46,440 What's your kind take on that? 1895 01:11:46,440 --> 01:11:49,560 - Yeah. I mean, if you're following FIPS 140, 1896 01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:52,260 which basically is a checklist of things you need to do to 1897 01:11:52,260 --> 01:11:54,900 be physically secure or be secure, 1898 01:11:54,900 --> 01:11:57,963 which is anti-tamper mechanisms to prevent physical access, 1899 01:11:58,890 --> 01:12:02,610 maybe encryption of data and things and things like that. 1900 01:12:02,610 --> 01:12:06,510 I don't know, I mean, from my perspective of being a hacker, 1901 01:12:06,510 --> 01:12:08,557 when I see a product that's FIPS-140 compliant, I say, 1902 01:12:08,557 --> 01:12:10,530 "Okay, at least they've maybe tried to take some steps, 1903 01:12:10,530 --> 01:12:13,050 but I still am going to try to hack it." 1904 01:12:13,050 --> 01:12:14,130 - [Audience Member] Right? 1905 01:12:14,130 --> 01:12:15,600 - Yeah. A lot of it's security by obscurity, 1906 01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:17,613 and a lot of it is checklists of things. 1907 01:12:18,900 --> 01:12:21,660 But yeah, if you're like, because of those things, 1908 01:12:21,660 --> 01:12:23,760 are you now preventing right to repair in a way 1909 01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:26,550 that you would prefer to enable that, but you can't? 1910 01:12:26,550 --> 01:12:27,480 Like, I don't know. 1911 01:12:27,480 --> 01:12:30,780 - Right to repair laws really don't deal with design at all. 1912 01:12:30,780 --> 01:12:32,430 All they're saying, if you're a hardware, 1913 01:12:32,430 --> 01:12:33,420 if you're a security vendor, 1914 01:12:33,420 --> 01:12:35,730 you've got an authorized repair provider 1915 01:12:35,730 --> 01:12:39,000 who you send your gear to and you provide them with tools 1916 01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:41,700 and information to do those repairs on your behalf, 1917 01:12:41,700 --> 01:12:44,213 all repairs, there's nothing to how you design your product, 1918 01:12:44,213 --> 01:12:46,980 all I'm saying is you need to make those tools available 1919 01:12:46,980 --> 01:12:50,910 to the customers themselves and to independent repair 1920 01:12:50,910 --> 01:12:54,120 so that there can be a better market for that service. 1921 01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:56,220 And whether it's FIPs compliant or not, 1922 01:12:56,220 --> 01:12:59,070 I think the right to repair laws are totally silent on that. 1923 01:12:59,070 --> 01:13:04,050 But if you've got an authorized repair system network, 1924 01:13:04,050 --> 01:13:06,050 they're saying you need to open that up. 1925 01:13:07,950 --> 01:13:09,060 - [Audience Member] I know Louis is saying Kyle 1926 01:13:09,060 --> 01:13:11,190 did good work advocating for the New York state 1927 01:13:11,190 --> 01:13:12,060 right to repair law. 1928 01:13:12,060 --> 01:13:14,040 Last time I checked that passed the legislator 1929 01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:15,570 and is waiting for Hochul's signature. 1930 01:13:15,570 --> 01:13:18,030 Is there anything else holding that up? 1931 01:13:18,030 --> 01:13:20,080 - [Paul] No, email Kathy Hochul. 1932 01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:21,263 - Email the governor, Kathy Hochul. 1933 01:13:21,263 --> 01:13:23,010 It's sitting on her desk. 1934 01:13:23,010 --> 01:13:24,270 She just needs to sign it. 1935 01:13:24,270 --> 01:13:25,650 Indications are that she will, 1936 01:13:25,650 --> 01:13:30,360 but I think requests like friendly suggestions 1937 01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:32,880 or requests that she sign it would be welcome. 1938 01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:33,713 - [Paul] Yes. 1939 01:13:33,713 --> 01:13:35,913 - But I can say we're actively working on it. 1940 01:13:35,913 --> 01:13:39,390 The repair.org is the right to repair coalition 1941 01:13:39,390 --> 01:13:40,223 working on this. 1942 01:13:40,223 --> 01:13:41,253 Please join repair.org. 1943 01:13:42,540 --> 01:13:45,090 We met with the Governor's staff this week, 1944 01:13:45,090 --> 01:13:46,980 and we're continuing that dialogue. 1945 01:13:46,980 --> 01:13:48,510 So we're hopeful. 1946 01:13:48,510 --> 01:13:50,730 You say, "Well, why hasn't she done it yet?" 1947 01:13:50,730 --> 01:13:53,070 New York passed a thousand bills this year. 1948 01:13:53,070 --> 01:13:55,290 She has to sign all of them by hand. 1949 01:13:55,290 --> 01:13:56,553 So that takes some time. 1950 01:13:57,390 --> 01:14:00,150 - [Paul] I think we got time maybe for one more question. 1951 01:14:00,150 --> 01:14:02,430 - [Audience Member] So hypothetically, if members 1952 01:14:02,430 --> 01:14:06,150 of the audience were, let's say, involved with some 1953 01:14:06,150 --> 01:14:08,820 consortiums of hospitals that were fighting against 1954 01:14:08,820 --> 01:14:12,360 some particularly evil and litigious OEMs 1955 01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:16,890 on right to repair, how might they get more collaborative 1956 01:14:16,890 --> 01:14:19,260 with those of you on the panel 1957 01:14:19,260 --> 01:14:21,120 and work together on some of these issues? 1958 01:14:21,120 --> 01:14:23,100 - Come up and talk to me after. 1959 01:14:23,100 --> 01:14:24,360 We're we're very interested. 1960 01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:25,800 We're working with hospitals. 1961 01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:28,500 We have medical-focused right to repair. 1962 01:14:28,500 --> 01:14:30,300 One thing by the way, I want to mention, 1963 01:14:30,300 --> 01:14:33,360 since the other panel that's happening right now 1964 01:14:33,360 --> 01:14:35,070 is talking about medical, 1965 01:14:35,070 --> 01:14:39,087 but when COVID started we started collaborating with EFF 1966 01:14:39,087 --> 01:14:40,980 and we said, "Look, there's all these service manuals 1967 01:14:40,980 --> 01:14:43,260 for hospital equipment that should be out there. 1968 01:14:43,260 --> 01:14:45,720 Biomeds are handing them around on hard drives 1969 01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:47,970 and USB sticks to get the service manuals around. 1970 01:14:47,970 --> 01:14:49,715 Can we just get those on the internet?" 1971 01:14:49,715 --> 01:14:53,940 (indistinct) was like, do you think you guys can back us up 1972 01:14:53,940 --> 01:14:56,616 if we stick our neck out a little bit on this? 1973 01:14:56,616 --> 01:14:57,449 And we said, yes. 1974 01:14:57,449 --> 01:14:58,282 And so we did it. 1975 01:14:58,282 --> 01:14:59,250 And so we launched the on iFixit. 1976 01:14:59,250 --> 01:15:01,620 We got 300 archivists and librarians that have been sent 1977 01:15:01,620 --> 01:15:04,020 home during COVID to help us comb through. 1978 01:15:04,020 --> 01:15:06,720 And we got 25,000 service manuals, 1979 01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:10,320 PDFs for everything from a ventilator to a CPAP machine 1980 01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:13,650 to hospital equipment, vital sign monitors, you name it. 1981 01:15:13,650 --> 01:15:15,030 It's all online at www.ifixit.com. 1982 01:15:15,030 --> 01:15:15,993 It's all free. 1983 01:15:18,476 --> 01:15:21,150 And so I hope that's a useful resource. 1984 01:15:21,150 --> 01:15:22,860 Also, if you're looking to do security research 1985 01:15:22,860 --> 01:15:24,510 on these things, the service manual is a good place 1986 01:15:24,510 --> 01:15:25,680 to start. 1987 01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:26,513 - [Audience Member] Yes. 1988 01:15:26,513 --> 01:15:27,780 - So hopefully that helps, but yeah, 1989 01:15:27,780 --> 01:15:29,580 we're working actively with hospitals 1990 01:15:29,580 --> 01:15:31,620 around the country and we'd love to talk. 1991 01:15:31,620 --> 01:15:33,930 - [Paul] Do we have time for one more question or not? 1992 01:15:33,930 --> 01:15:34,763 - Yes. 1993 01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:36,960 - [Paul] Over here. Over here. 1994 01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:38,130 Yeah. 1995 01:15:38,130 --> 01:15:39,540 He's got his hand very high up. 1996 01:15:39,540 --> 01:15:40,373 So. 1997 01:15:44,580 --> 01:15:45,827 - [Audience Member] Thank you all for coming. 1998 01:15:45,827 --> 01:15:47,174 I was just curious. 1999 01:15:47,174 --> 01:15:49,290 There's a lot of talk about right to repair 2000 01:15:49,290 --> 01:15:52,623 and Louis Rossmann you're a hero of mine. 2001 01:15:53,460 --> 01:15:56,640 I was curious if you had any thoughts on focusing more on 2002 01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:58,980 kind of removing these unelected bureaucrats like in 2003 01:15:58,980 --> 01:16:02,913 Customs, kind of reducing their powers, focusing on that. 2004 01:16:05,430 --> 01:16:09,510 Having Congress act on that, in particular, removing powers 2005 01:16:09,510 --> 01:16:10,910 where they don't need to be? 2006 01:16:12,090 --> 01:16:14,140 - I definitely wouldn't be opposed to it. 2007 01:16:17,310 --> 01:16:18,480 TSA, while we're at it, as well. 2008 01:16:18,480 --> 01:16:20,070 Why not? 2009 01:16:20,070 --> 01:16:21,143 - [Audience Member] Beautiful. 2010 01:16:22,770 --> 01:16:23,940 - [Paul] Okay. 2011 01:16:23,940 --> 01:16:25,200 Give a big hand to our panelists. 2012 01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:26,400 They did an amazing job. 2013 01:16:29,610 --> 01:16:32,763 And thanks all of you for coming and asking great questions.