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For Hack 5, I'm Darren Kitchen here with Shannon Morse and a very special guest, it is none other than DarkTangent himself.

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Hey Jeff, how are you?

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Hey, I'm excited to be here.

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I've watched your show for eons and we've never actually met.

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I can't believe it's been 30 DEF CONs and that hasn't happened.

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No, no.

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But I feel like I know you through your YouTube.

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But I definitely know Shannon.

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Yeah, we actually did a panel the other day.

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It was the DEF CON 101 panel.

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Thank you so much for the kind introduction and it was great to finally meet you in person.

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Yeah, it feels like, I think with COVID, I didn't realize when I got to DEF CON, like a weight lifted off my shoulders, that I didn't realize she was there.

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And as soon as I got around my people, it was like, wow, I didn't realize.

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That personal contact is just... we are such social creatures.

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I had the same feeling.

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I'm definitely an extrovert.

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I know I'm the weirdo being here.

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I'm the extroverted one.

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But it was so interesting coming back to DEF CON 30 after being away for such a long time.

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I actually saw some of my friends in person and I started bawling my eyes out.

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And I didn't realize how much... You didn't know that you had that.

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I didn't realize I missed them so much until I came back.

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And I feel like that's one of the important roles that DEF CON plays in our lives as hackers and as information security experts.

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We're kind of more than a community in a sense.

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Yeah.

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Many of which came to my wedding, like we're a family.

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It's a weirdo family.

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It is a weirdo family.

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I think maybe that's a difference though between sort of the hacking culture and the Infosec culture a little bit, where Infosec sometimes can become kind of transactional career advancement.

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And with DEF CON or with hacking conferences, it's a little less about career advancement and more about learning the thing.

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Do the thing.

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I agree.

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Yeah.

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I think that's maybe a different mentality.

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Getting into the scene early on, that was one of the biggest draws for me.

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And I would love to hear your personal story on this.

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But the thing that I found as a kid on IRC was that finally there was a place where I felt like I belonged.

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And there's been this sense of community that even now 20, 30 years into it, you really still have that kind of family feel of like, this is where your brothers and sisters are.

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And I'm curious to hear from you because I mean, obviously doing so much to shepherd the community, how that was like before there was a DEF CON for you?

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Yeah.

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Well, so in the lore of DEF CON, there are all the hacking conferences before me.

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There's about three or four.

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There's like SummerCon and HoHoCon.

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And PumpCon was just starting basically the same year and they're all invite only.

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And I was young and new and I didn't have the invites.

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So when I did DEF CON, I wanted to make it open, not closed.

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But that's the fork in the road.

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If you become open, you can't really turn people away.

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People who are interested can attend.

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There's no gatekeeping there.

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So you don't know who's going to show up, right?

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So you just got to try to set the tone and hope you're...

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And people in those early days were so full of promise of what the internet could be, the utopian world it could build, that everybody wanted to figure it out.

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And they all showed up, you know, a hundred people one year, 200, 300, 600, you know, and they took off.

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And I think early days, finding a home, like just resonated because before then, we were these weirdo internet people.

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But then since we planted our flag early, there was a stretcher as new people came along to kind of find their tribe.

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And if you look at DEF CON, you can be a hardware person, you can be a social engineering person.

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There's a million little communities in a community.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So speaking of gatekeeping and accessibility, something that I noticed very early in the scene was that there was still that mindset of kind of like the bravado, the I'm late and I'm not going to share with you, you noob.

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And I got to be honest, as a kid, I really wanted to go to some of the very early DEF CONs and trying to convince my mom, you know, with the other phone freaks I hung out with and in pound 2600 and stuff.

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And obviously couldn't go as like a 13 year old.

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But now you do see 13 year olds on the floor and you walk the conference and you see how accessible it is and how there are so many games and contests and villages that are like, hey, try this lockpick out or try, you know, all these different things out.

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Has that been part of the fabric?

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And was that part of the foundation of starting DEF CON going to your statement about how they were all previously invite only?

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Yeah, I think a couple things happened.

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It became more accessible, less secretive when we started doing it publicly.

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And then later on when the search Alta Vista and then Google and Amazon, all of a sudden you could search on security.

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And so the amount of time you would spend as a hacker trying to figure out the secret was reduced because you could find it faster and you had more time to actually do the thing.

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Well, when I was young, we were young, like half my time was trying to figure out who knew the answer and convince them to tell me the answer.

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When that shrinks to like 10%, it gives you that much more time to... I'm a little jealous of the current generations where they can do the thing.

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And they've got frameworks, you know.

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Mentors are so important in this industry and being able to get into, you know, hacker education, hacker research.

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One of the things I've noticed through the weekend interviewing with tons of different villages, which by the way, thank you for that opportunity, is how welcoming each of the villages is.

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Every single one that I talked to mentioned that even if you come in there and you've never done blue teaming, you've never done lock picking, whatever it might be, you can go in there and find somebody that you can talk to.

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Yeah, they're so excited to find other people like them.

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Yeah.

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So I think the other difference is we really started about 10 years ago, or nine years ago, we really started to double down on is Defcon a hacker?

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Because what was in the early days, everything was a hacking conference.

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But then InfoSec grew, careers, we got jobs, all these fantastic opportunities, we could do this as a job, not a hobby.

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But naturally, then all the comms started to look like InfoSec comms.

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Yes.

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Because who's the sponsor, the product manufacturer, right?

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And so it just naturally had that gravity.

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But because we existed before there were sponsors or whatever, we had to figure out how to make a con that worked with none of that.

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And then later on, as the industry grew up, we didn't need to take the sponsor money because we'd already figured it out.

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So we, fortunately, had charted this path where we could stay more hacker, where less people could influence us.

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Well, now here we are 30 years later.

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And it's like, what's the difference between hacker and InfoSec?

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And we think about it every year.

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But it's, I really think it's sort of joy of discovery, like spontaneous sort of exploration.

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It's things that are not like, you don't necessarily get an InfoSec.

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It's not become better to some instant response tool.

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It's more like, oh my God, that's how satellites work.

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Right?

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The company's not going to pay you to go learn how the satellite works.

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But you've got this innate curiosity that we're trying to feed.

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And so a friend of mine years ago said, well, I send my team to Black Hat to learn how to be better at their tool use.

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But I really send them to DEF CON to learn how to think.

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I think that summarized mindset versus...

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Yeah.

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Hacking is a way of thinking for sure.

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What I'm really curious about is how, as our scene has matured into an industry, as hacking has evolved into InfoSec, how do we preserve the origins of InfoSec?

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I know that archive.org does good work.

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I know that text files.

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In fact, I even have text files from the BBS scene that I wrote, preserved sadly, poorly.

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What can we do as a community to ensure that as it continues to evolve, that the essence of the seeds that planted originally to start this stick around?

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It's a really good question because we're terrible at preserving our own history.

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And I noticed this on the hacking conference world.

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So I started a project called InfoCon.org and went and found every hacking conference I could find and preserved the videos.

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And I keep updating it.

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I know there's been a few books blowing up the phone, or exploding the phone, I think it is.

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Yeah, it's a good freak one.

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Yeah, I'm freaking, but there's not that many good books on the history.

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And I've heard that there's two or three that people are trying to write before they get too old and forget all the stories.

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So I really hope some of the old timers write that.

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I would love to contribute to any anything anybody's writing out there.

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If you want to talk to somebody about our early days.

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But if we don't do that, right, it'll be lost.

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Yeah.

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It's just so fun watching Hacker Jeopardy when they asked like this happened 30 years ago.

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And people, they either get it or they're completely lost.

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Yeah.

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And so and then you've got all of us going, Oh my god, that was 30 years ago.

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And you're like, what, what happened?

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Terminator 2, 30 years ago.

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Oh, going into DEF CON 30.

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It's for me, even coming back here after three years, it's a bit overwhelming.

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Do you feel like DEF CON as in general has changed a whole lot, even given the past three years?

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Oh, definitely.

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Yeah.

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And I think it was, you know, how in your own personal development, there's different stages and you look back and you go, Oh, that's when my perspective changed.

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Yeah.

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Around DEF CON 3, people are coming up and telling me things that happened at the con that I didn't know about.

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And I was like, Oh my god, it's bigger than I am.

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Yeah.

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Describe that feeling to me.

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Because I might know a little, I'm starting to know a little bit about the, it's gotten bigger than me.

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What does that feel like to you?

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So then you're like, Oh my gosh, that sucks.

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I'm not gonna like, I put in all this energy and I don't get to learn.

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And then you're like, but it's kind of like, it's bigger than me now.

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Yeah.

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It's, it's larger than me.

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And people, I mean, all these experiences and I don't have to be there to partake with them.

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When you noticed that, did you feel like you were giving up your baby?

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It was.

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Yeah.

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And it took me a couple years to really, because at first I was like, tell me everything that I missed.

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And then after a while, you're like, you know, I'm okay.

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I don't, there's too much going on.

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Yeah.

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And then when you hear those stories secondhand, you're like, that's awesome.

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You know, that people really did that in the shower, you know?

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Okay then.

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Wait, what?

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I haven't heard that story.

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And hopefully nothing involving quick set cement.

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No, no.

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We did have some cement in the toilet one year.

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Yeah.

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In fact, I really appreciate coming down the escalators this year.

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You see the big old placard for the Alexis park.

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Yeah.

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So good.

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We originally were going to do a giant rug and we figured somebody would roll it up and walk off with it.

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I've seen people steal sofas from some of the sweet parties.

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Yeah .

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That happens.

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I really wanted to do this year at closing ceremony, like a confetti cannon, but then you have to pay to clean it up.

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So I was trying to figure out how to make each piece of confetti collectible.

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So the people would take it with them.

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Wait, so can we spoil it?

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Is that actually happening?

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No, but I wish we could maybe next year.

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So if I ever do a confetti cannon, I'm going to make each piece collectible.

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So the attendees will clean it up.

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Yeah.

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It really has gotten so much larger.

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I haven't come to, you know, at least the last 10 years.

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And, um, what are the kind of thought processes that go in your mind when you're thinking about like, as the attendance rises and keeping the cohesive nature of it, because I know we've gone from small little hotels to slightly larger hotels to multiple hotels.

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And now we have is DEF CON is always a reflection of the community because we can't force the community, right?

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We can just sort of steer the supertanker or kind of try to direct the orchestra, but really they're doing what they want to do.

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So we try to set the tone.

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We try to set the example.

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We did this with our code of conduct.

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We did this with our transparency.

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Thank you for that first conference to do a transparency report.

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And so the thinking there is we first create our code of conduct to create standards.

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And then we report, are we following them to try to force us to follow our rules?

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And then hopefully other people like that, they imitate us.

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And then hopefully other people are.

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So every once in a while we do things to try to elevate the community or provide some direction.

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You know, I don't say it's, what do they call it?

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Something signaling, virtue signaling.

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No, I don't either.

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Absolutely not.

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In fact, I'm glad you mentioned code of conduct policies because I feel like a lot of other hacker conventions look to DEF CON to figure out what they should do in the future.

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And when you created that policy, many others created their own COCs.

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It was okay for them to follow.

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It was okay.

202
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Yeah.

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It was more comfortable for them.

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It became our standard operating procedure to ask for that for when we would sponsor conferences.

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It was like making a new protocol.

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Yeah.

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No, when we wrote that, we had an eye for other people copying.

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But so when you're, when you're being kind of told wherever, which way the community is going, people will lament, oh, it's not like it used to be.

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It's changed.

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It's like, yes, look around you, look at the diversity, look at how the workplace has changed.

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It's not just network engineers anymore.

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Right.

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Technology is in every industry.

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So therefore people from every industry is going to be here.

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Sorry, but it's almost like you're a victim of your success.

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You wanted people to understand what you're doing.

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Now they all do.

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And so now they're all here.

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Yeah.

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Straight up.

221
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I used to work in restaurants.

222
00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:57,940
I graduated in hospitality administration, so I could run a convention, but I didn't know a thing about hacking before I came to DEF CON and started working with Hack5.

223
00:13:57,940 --> 00:14:06,100
Unlike the Dark Tangent who obviously, you know, aspired to create the nation's largest HackerCon from day one.

224
00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:07,060
That was the plan.

225
00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:15,940
Do you want to, other than the birthday story, do you want to give us kind of the little nugget of how this came to be for you?

226
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:24,080
Well, so originally, like you, I was a phone freak and then later a little bit of a hacker, but not a great hacker.

227
00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:25,420
I was an okay hacker.

228
00:14:25,580 --> 00:14:28,960
And then you didn't get caught like Darren did?

229
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:30,780
No, I never got caught.

230
00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:39,520
But I ran this bulletin board and I was the US hub for like 12 different hacking networks on FIDO network.

231
00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,820
It wasn't on FIDO, but FIDO compatible network.

232
00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:50,520
And when one of those networks was going away, PlatinumNet, we were going to throw a going away party, but all the, it was a Canadian network, but all the users were mostly in America.

233
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,200
So he's like, let's throw a party, but we got to do it in America because that's where everybody is.

234
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,140
And I said, okay, great.

235
00:14:55,140 --> 00:14:56,360
Well, where can we do it?

236
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:57,440
Maybe Las Vegas.

237
00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,960
And then all of a sudden his dad took a new job.

238
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:05,320
He disappeared and I've never heard from him since, but I'd already had like one foot in.

239
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,880
So I was like, well, if we're doing this, I'm going to invite everybody.

240
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,020
Not just that network.

241
00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:13,180
I'm going to invite everybody on IRC, PoundHack, PoundFreak.

242
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:14,760
That's what I was, PoundFreak.

243
00:15:15,660 --> 00:15:16,160
DownNet?

244
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:16,640
FNet?

245
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:17,340
FNet.

246
00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:20,080
I was like on Usenet.

247
00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:21,900
I was sending faxes to everybody.

248
00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:24,980
I mean, I was like spamming everybody that I could for free.

249
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,620
And, uh, and it just turned into this party.

250
00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:28,060
Right.

251
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:35,820
And you quickly realized, like, I didn't really sign up to become a conference organizer, but you have to learn.

252
00:15:35,820 --> 00:15:36,120
Yeah.

253
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,980
And so I went looking for books on, well, how do you do this?

254
00:15:38,980 --> 00:15:40,340
There are no books on this.

255
00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:44,160
So you have to learn as you, you know, as you play the game.

256
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:50,460
And, um, and so it's like kind of a little bit like hacking, like the way you order things optimizes the cost.

257
00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:54,760
The way you do ship things is it's the same kind of puzzle mentality.

258
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:55,140
Yeah.

259
00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:56,720
It's very logical.

260
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:03,560
When we first started getting into e-commerce, I look at like all of the regulations and all of the hoops that we have to jump through for EAR and everything else.

261
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,100
And, um, and I'm like, Ooh, a complex system.

262
00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:12,360
I get to understand this and find the optimal way to approach this problem.

263
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,640
And that's like hacking isn't just like Unix systems.

264
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,240
It's, it's a mindset.

265
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,020
And I love hacking logistics.

266
00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:23,100
And when you see, when you're paying with a credit card and they're like, Oh, you've got to sign them.

267
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:27,040
Like, Oh yeah, they're going for the extra 0.1% discount for the extra in-person.

268
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:28,980
You know, like you can see their process.

269
00:16:28,980 --> 00:16:29,780
It's true.

270
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,600
And then when they don't, you're like, wow, they must be making so much money.

271
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,060
They're not trying to max out their, you know, visa or whatever interchange fee.

272
00:16:37,060 --> 00:16:37,320
Yeah.

273
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:38,660
It's really fascinating.

274
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,600
The, um, that hacker mentality is kind of what we try to teach.

275
00:16:42,780 --> 00:16:48,760
And as the community has grown and there's been more people, you can't just get into a room and meet everyone.

276
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,640
So it's been a big challenge over the years is how do you help people find their tribe?

277
00:16:54,100 --> 00:17:01,040
And when the villages, the original villages were a wifi village and hardware hacking, but now we have 30.

278
00:17:01,820 --> 00:17:05,320
I mean, the conference is that the villages make the conference.

279
00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:15,080
You've got the tracks, but because you put the, uh, uh, the, the talks online, you can actually go and enjoy the, not having the fear of missing out on the talks.

280
00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:16,200
It's wonderful.

281
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:23,320
And it's kind of like going to Burning Man and realizing like, no, this is actually like a bunch of nerds descending on somewhere and they're making this.

282
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,000
How does that feel when it's like delegated like that?

283
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:26,160
Yeah.

284
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:37,040
So what we do is instead of, uh, you know, villages and contests and events and, and now we're just thinking among the creators, these are the people creating the content that people want to see.

285
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,740
It might be a two day contest.

286
00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:39,980
It might be a one day village.

287
00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:45,320
It might be something, but they're the creative energy that we have about a thousand of them.

288
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:53,880
It takes to put on a DEF CON about a thousand creators to make this and about 500 goons to help act as the oil.

289
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,500
And so it's about 1500 people to make this kind of experience.

290
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:10,880
And so we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how do you take 20 something, 30,000 people, and then you're like, okay, hardware, okay, uh, hardware, hacking village, uh, voting machines.

291
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,740
And next thing you know, you're sitting down with 10 people with the same interest.

292
00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:15,960
And you're like, oh, that was really cool.

293
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:16,740
I met some.

294
00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:17,340
Oh, okay.

295
00:18:17,340 --> 00:18:19,800
Uh, locks, high security locks.

296
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,440
Uh, you know, next, now you're at a table with those people.

297
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,180
And we just spend a lot of time giving off ramps.

298
00:18:26,180 --> 00:18:29,800
So even though there's a huge mass, how can you find your people?

299
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:31,100
And we think about that a lot.

300
00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:36,040
It might not be visible to anybody, but that's our secret social engineering strategy.

301
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:36,620
Yeah.

302
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:48,920
So Jeff, as the guy behind the convention, what is one tip that you would give to somebody who's coming from a completely different background and wants to go to DEF CON just to see what it's like?

303
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:49,220
Yeah.

304
00:18:49,220 --> 00:18:53,820
The number one thing is you go up to somebody and say, I don't understand what this is.

305
00:18:53,820 --> 00:18:54,960
Can you explain it to me?

306
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,880
And people are so excited that you care about the thing that they care about.

307
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,580
And they just want to share their passion with you.

308
00:19:01,580 --> 00:19:07,580
And as long as you're thankful and you're like, you know, open and they'll talk to you all day.

309
00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:09,020
It's true.

310
00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:13,640
Now that we're on DEF CON 30, I feel like it's, it's so exciting.

311
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,940
It's so good to be back and congratulations on 30 years going, 30 years going strong too.

312
00:19:18,980 --> 00:19:21,480
Where do you want to see DEF CON going from here?

313
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,480
I feel like there's just onwards and upwards.

314
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:34,040
Also, by the way, Cesar's Forum should have asked you before building this place about adding on a second floor so that we have twice as many ballrooms.

315
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,620
When we signed the, when we were about to sign, signed the agreement to move here from Paris Valleys.

316
00:19:39,620 --> 00:19:39,940
Yeah.

317
00:19:39,940 --> 00:19:41,440
They showed us the plans.

318
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,440
It originally had two floors.

319
00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:44,240
Really?

320
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,060
It was originally designed to have two floors.

321
00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:47,100
I freaking knew it.

322
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:48,260
They should have done it.

323
00:19:48,260 --> 00:19:48,500
It was.

324
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:50,700
And then remember they've been bought so many times.

325
00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:52,680
They're in the process of being bought by another group.

326
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:52,940
Yeah.

327
00:19:52,940 --> 00:19:56,400
And they tried to shave all their costs and they decided, Oh, one floor.

328
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:56,800
Yeah.

329
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,280
Well now they kind of wish they had two floors.

330
00:19:59,460 --> 00:20:02,220
Do you ever feel like we're going to end up at the LVCC?

331
00:20:02,860 --> 00:20:04,420
Uh, no, I don't want to go there.

332
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:05,860
Please don't do that.

333
00:20:05,860 --> 00:20:06,040
No, no.

334
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,460
But there are other... CES is there.

335
00:20:07,460 --> 00:20:08,220
It's terrible.

336
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:13,380
So the thing about that is there are places that are bigger, but we need air walls.

337
00:20:13,380 --> 00:20:13,700
Yes.

338
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:14,640
We need to survive.

339
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,040
And those giant convention centers have no air walls.

340
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:17,320
Yeah.

341
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,340
So you could literally go broke trying to put those spacer walls in.

342
00:20:21,420 --> 00:20:25,060
So we are stuck in only a certain... So true.

343
00:20:25,060 --> 00:20:30,320
So does that mean that, uh, as Defcon grows, it hits a capacity or what do you think?

344
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,740
Does that keep you up at night thinking at some point that it has to be fragmented?

345
00:20:33,740 --> 00:20:38,980
Not, not to say it's not already with all your DC insert area code here, NPA here.

346
00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:39,360
Yeah.

347
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:42,260
So we have the Flamingo, we have the Link and Harrah's.

348
00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:46,120
And so we try to localize things like all the workshops are at one location.

349
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:50,160
So I can see if we really had to keep growing, we'd add another property.

350
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:50,480
Yeah.

351
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:59,060
You know, um, I would hate to have people walk across the street to Caesars, but if you did go to Caesars Palace, that's another giant place.

352
00:20:59,060 --> 00:20:59,340
Yeah.

353
00:20:59,340 --> 00:21:01,900
So I think Vegas can provide.

354
00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:04,640
I just don't want people to walk any more than they have to.

355
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,440
And I really love this, uh, street of food behind here.

356
00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,360
In-N-Out burger.

357
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:11,140
It's great.

358
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,240
What's your, uh, step count for the weekend?

359
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:14,340
Yeah.

360
00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:17,800
Well, funny you mentioned that I turn off all the wifi and Bluetooth on my phone.

361
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,180
Why would you do that, Jeff?

362
00:21:19,180 --> 00:21:20,420
Don't turn off the wifi.

363
00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:26,100
Something like some Bluetooth ducky, rabbit, pineapple.

364
00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:27,180
We have all the animals.

365
00:21:27,180 --> 00:21:28,120
We have a zoo.

366
00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:29,980
Have you heard about the zoo?

367
00:21:29,980 --> 00:21:31,380
We have a petting zoo.

368
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,860
When can we bring all the animals for the petting zoo, Jeff?

369
00:21:34,980 --> 00:21:36,900
So instead I won't know.

370
00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:38,240
I'll turn on my phone and everything.

371
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,920
I'll sync it and I'll be like, Oh, that's what I do.

372
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:46,160
Well, if any, if it's anything like me, it's probably about 10 miles per day.

373
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:46,520
Yeah.

374
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,540
So when do you start planning for DEF CON 30?

375
00:21:48,540 --> 00:21:48,980
Wonderful.

376
00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:51,320
About a month.

377
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:58,120
And then around the first of the year, we start announcing all our calls and then it really starts picking up around February.

378
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:03,420
But for us in the back end, about a month from now, for the rest of the community, probably six months from now.

379
00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:06,860
So I really got to know, where do you go in September to recharge?

380
00:22:07,780 --> 00:22:09,860
Well, after this, I'm going to Singapore.

381
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:11,120
Yeah.

382
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:12,200
So that'll be nice.

383
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,040
I hope it's on vacation and not work.

384
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:14,600
No, no.

385
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:15,680
I've been living there.

386
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,200
I got trapped there for COVID.

387
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,520
And so now the family's there.

388
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,180
Oh, nice.

389
00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:20,780
Cool.

390
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:21,260
Yeah.

391
00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:22,300
You're going home.

392
00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:22,400
Yeah.

393
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,540
Which is weird though, which is it's on the equator.

394
00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:27,880
So you wear the same clothes every day.

395
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,020
The sun sets and rises about the same time every day.

396
00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:32,220
Like nothing changes.

397
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:35,080
And it's also like a cyberpunk novella at night.

398
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:35,980
It's crazy.

399
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:36,640
All the light.

400
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,880
And so then I come back here and I'm like, I did Northwest of Seattle where I'm from.

401
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,580
And it's like, I can wear a jacket.

402
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,920
Oh, I have got clothing options.

403
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,860
And so that sameness there, and then you come back and you're like, you have all this variety.

404
00:22:50,020 --> 00:22:59,600
It's just, um, one other thing I want to mention about 30 this year is that, and I don't know about you guys, but I thought I kind of had it under control emotionally.

405
00:23:00,220 --> 00:23:03,620
And, you know, we had Def Con 29 last year and that was pretty good.

406
00:23:03,620 --> 00:23:05,580
Felt really good to see everybody last year.

407
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:11,900
But I was on the escalator coming down and I saw everybody and I saw how much energy and how much positivity.

408
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:15,280
And all of a sudden it felt like this invisible weight was lifted on my shoulders.

409
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,080
It was a weight I didn't know I had.

410
00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:21,020
And then I got down, I was around people and I was like, Oh, wow.

411
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,440
Like, how did I survive before?

412
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:29,980
You know, you just, I didn't realize that there's like, the colors had been turned down and I didn't realize it.

413
00:23:29,980 --> 00:23:32,840
Now that I've been around everybody, it's like really energizing.

414
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:33,620
I don't know.

415
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:39,320
Maybe it's just because I've been so far away in another country, but whatever it was, it just awesome.

416
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:39,860
Yeah.

417
00:23:40,340 --> 00:23:50,740
Well, we are, we're just honored that, uh, that this is that our community is, uh, still here and that it's so strong and it's such a great feeling.

418
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,980
Which is amazing.

419
00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:56,880
Every year we did DEF CON, we were like, okay, that's it.

420
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,540
That's as many people in the world that are willing to get on an airplane and come to Las Vegas.

421
00:24:01,540 --> 00:24:03,540
There's more conferences than ever.

422
00:24:03,540 --> 00:24:05,500
There's more hacking things than ever.

423
00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:07,800
At some point you max out.

424
00:24:07,860 --> 00:24:18,760
And even with a thousand besides and other events and InfoSec still keeps growing, which tells you there's this insatiable thirst and demand.

425
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,640
And it's not just the demand for the talks in the villages.

426
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,360
If you look around, it's the people.

427
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:24,680
That's what makes it for me.

428
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:31,200
So you've seen it probably with your YouTube channel, like just more and more viewers as people are just, it's crazy.

429
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:32,540
They want to know.

430
00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:33,280
Yeah.

431
00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:37,620
When I first started on this channel, I never would have thought we would, we would have grown this much.

432
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:39,960
We're almost to a million.

433
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,600
We're at over 800,000 now.

434
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:41,840
It's weird too.

435
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,520
Cause it's the longest running show on YouTube technically.

436
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:45,200
It's crazy.

437
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,500
But, uh, also still not just shy of a million subscribers.

438
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:49,080
We're niche.

439
00:24:49,420 --> 00:24:50,780
That's okay though, we're niche.

440
00:24:51,340 --> 00:24:52,740
Yeah, but you're a million.

441
00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:58,140
I think you, I think, uh, DEF CON, we got our a hundred thousand subscriber a little award.

442
00:24:58,140 --> 00:25:00,420
I think we're around maybe almost 200, right?

443
00:25:00,420 --> 00:25:01,760
I mean, you're all right.

444
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,540
Everybody go subscribe to DEF CON.

445
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,560
Also, I really got to know what, again, is that website as it's like so important to preserve our culture.

446
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:09,840
Yeah.

447
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,960
InfoCon.org and the, in the community, this is so awesome.

448
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,220
A guy sees InfoCon.org and says, that's amazing.

449
00:25:17,220 --> 00:25:21,280
And he creates InfoConDB.org.

450
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:27,760
He takes all my data and he created an inverse database of all the speakers and their bios.

451
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,180
Oh, so you can do a reverse lookup.

452
00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:34,980
You can do a reverse lookup and you can say, Dan Kaminsky, black guy turns out to be, and it links to the video on InfoCon.

453
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,640
And now, I mean, it's just an IMDB for hackers.

454
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:39,320
Awesome.

455
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,860
And that's like, he did that for years and we'd never met each other.

456
00:25:42,860 --> 00:25:45,520
And we ran into each other and he's like, I'm the InfoConDB guy.

457
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,900
It's like, awesome.

458
00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:47,680
Why are you doing that?

459
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,180
It's like, I wanted a project.

460
00:25:49,420 --> 00:25:54,040
And he wanted to learn all the scripting language and he figured he could learn how to do it by doing this new project.

461
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,080
That's a great way to do it.

462
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,940
Because we can is the best way to hack.

463
00:25:58,040 --> 00:25:58,960
Yeah, right.

464
00:25:59,020 --> 00:26:01,380
So there's more content than ever.

465
00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:02,600
There's more community than ever.

466
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,940
All you got to do is have the courage to come out.

467
00:26:04,940 --> 00:26:05,240
Yep.

468
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,560
And where can people find out more if they want to join, if they want to go to DEF CON in the future?

469
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,580
So DEF CON.org, obviously.

470
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,040
And we have a pretty good community on Reddit.

471
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,040
A lot of supportive people.

472
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:17,760
We got our DEF CON forums.

473
00:26:18,140 --> 00:26:19,160
There's a Discord .

474
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,200
Discord for the people who can't make it here.

475
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,180
We really try to support the community year round with the Discord.

476
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,180
I'm not a big fan of the Discord privacy policy.

477
00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:31,440
So maybe in the future we'll think about maybe doing a Mastodon or something.

478
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,620
But we didn't have time for 30 this year.

479
00:26:33,620 --> 00:26:38,140
But I'm always curious from the community what they would want to see.

480
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:46,660
Yeah, well, I miss IRC and USENET, but then again... I haven't been on IRC in forever, so I don't know if it's...

481
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,400
I just saw the meltdown of... what was it?

482
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:49,960
UNDERNET?

483
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:50,840
Or one of them?

484
00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:52,620
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

485
00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:54,100
DOWNNET dropped.

486
00:26:54,180 --> 00:26:54,940
UNDERNET's gone.

487
00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:59,200
I mean, like, what's... oh, I'm blanking on the one you're talking about.

488
00:27:01,340 --> 00:27:02,460
Someone's yelling at the video right now.

489
00:27:02,460 --> 00:27:05,680
We had the weird takeover, split.

490
00:27:05,980 --> 00:27:09,500
It just seemed like things were not happy in IRC land for a while.

491
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:13,720
Which is weird, because I heard once there was drama on IRC.

492
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,080
No, never.

493
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:15,680
Oh, yeah.

494
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,920
Which is great that you've been able to create a conference that over 30 years has also never had that.

495
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,700
No drama, no hotel damage, nothing, no hijinks.

496
00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:24,660
Nothing at all.

497
00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:26,980
That never happens here.

498
00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:29,500
I'm sure your insurance premiums are wonderful, too.

499
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:33,200
There's somebody who every year counterfeits the badges.

500
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:33,740
Yep.

501
00:27:33,740 --> 00:27:42,220
And at first we were very upset, and then we're like, your counterfeits are so good, you should give a talk on how you create the counterfeits.

502
00:27:42,220 --> 00:27:42,720
Teach us.

503
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:43,160
Yes.

504
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:51,800
It's like, well, I melt the record in the oven to a certain temperature, and then I peel off the thing, and that gives a shiny reflection to make it look like a hologram.

505
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,600
I'm like, how did you figure that out?

506
00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:03,140
So there's like a whole other aspect of physical security and tamper evidence that you didn't even know existed until the guy's telling you about melting the record.

507
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,460
And it's just so cool that you can spontaneously learn that stuff.

508
00:28:06,460 --> 00:28:12,400
Yeah, I can't imagine any of us thought 20 years ago that there would be a car hacking village or a voting machine hacking village.

509
00:28:12,820 --> 00:28:21,060
And as this continues to grow for the next 30 years, I can't even... what can you even imagine for DEF CON 60?

510
00:28:21,060 --> 00:28:26,580
I mean, I know there's going to be some weird network, satellite, orbital, data center, cloud hacking.

511
00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:30,180
I mean, there's just, you know, underseas, probe, something or other.

512
00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:32,360
We're going to be like hacking holograms.

513
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:38,380
Well, you know, soon as we're on this AR VR, it's all going to be about how to make prompts pop up for stuff that's not supposed to pop up.

514
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:39,060
100%.

515
00:28:39,060 --> 00:28:41,760
You know, it's going to be like how to create weird paths for people.

516
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:49,180
So you can sort of like go through the Alice in Wonderland doorway in AR and have an experience right next to somebody that's not having that experience.

517
00:28:49,820 --> 00:28:52,840
It's going to be... I'm really looking forward to the AR world.

518
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,360
I don't really care for VR.

519
00:28:54,940 --> 00:28:55,420
Yeah.

520
00:28:55,820 --> 00:29:00,620
Well, we'll be here next year with a Google Glass on, hopefully making that happen.

521
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,340
I'll bring my glass.

522
00:29:02,340 --> 00:29:02,980
Yeah.

523
00:29:03,220 --> 00:29:04,000
No, I won't.

524
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:04,800
I promise.

525
00:29:07,260 --> 00:29:08,720
Thank you so much.

526
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:08,940
Yes.

527
00:29:08,940 --> 00:29:10,940
Thank you so much for joining us today.

528
00:29:10,940 --> 00:29:15,140
I really appreciate you being here and thank you for making this convention.

529
00:29:15,140 --> 00:29:17,420
Thanks for having me an excuse to meet Jen.

530
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,060
Thanks for bringing... making such a place where all hackers belong.

531
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,160
We hope to see you guys next year, if not online.

532
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,280
We love you.

533
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:27,160
Take care.

534
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:28,680
Trust your technolust.