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    "text": " And we are back, just a couple minutes late, but not too far off. Yeah, hello everyone, we are back. We are here, and this is so exciting because we have the grand finals of the live CTF tournament at the DEFCON CTF finals. We have team Maple Mallard Magistrates versus Hypeboy. This is going to be really exciting. A fun fact is that the player playing for Hypeboy is the person, so we did this for the first time last year, and the person who went all the way and won last year, his nickname is... C2W2M2. Right, and so he is the person who won last year. So we have kind of like the live CTF champion. Returning champion, yeah, absolutely. Versus like MMM, who are just such an amazing team, right? So there's like two giants facing off here. And I think we're going to get started very soon. Well, let's just wait a little bit. I think we're going to get ready. We're going to make sure we get some power cables connected and get into it. But we have seen, again, we talked about on Hypeboy, we have C2W2M2 coming back as the sort of returning champion. And they made it through the first year with single elimination. It was even more stressful, even harder. It's worth pointing out though, they also made it through undefeated in this round too. So they have never lost in live CTF, which is kind of crazy, right? Like if you were to look over all the matches over two years, really great. But on the other side, we have like the sort of pair programming team from Maple Mallard Magistrates because we've had them swapping out between Robert and we've had them swapping into Jinmo, two of their players. And we told both teams that this was an x64 shellcoding challenge. And so they kind of used that hint to decide who to send. They decided Jinmo was going to be it. Sounds like we're ready to go, so we'll give them the countdown. Yes, so we are going to start the grand finals in... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go! Oh my god, this is so exciting. So this challenge, what do we know about it? Yes, so we did a little bit of, you know, we're getting with the times and so on. So the big thing this summer has of course been two movies that have come out. So in the, not the previous match, but the match before, we had a challenge House of Barbie, which was a heap challenge, you know, a bit of a play on the whole house of heap thing, right? So now we're following this up with Noppenheimer. Noppenheimer. You came up with a name, suggested it, before we even had an idea for the challenge. So Noppenheimer is the challenge. There's going to be a board, you saw there briefly on Hypeboy's screen. There's like a random bit of memory that's a random generated bytes. You've got 16 columns wide. You've got 256 long. And we thought, what better thing to do than to like, you know, knock some bombs, some explosions onto the board. So like a battleship or like a challenge where you have to like pick an XY coordinate. You choose where you want to write. By the way, I love that they just ran it first thing. Just to look at it, because this is a good one. You can really understand everything you need to know. Like no reverse engineering. You look at this and you know immediately what you need to do. Right. Although, I do want to quickly look at MMM's screen. We might not see it. Maybe they switched back to the terminal. But I did see that they very crucially ran the checksec program, which will list what kind of mitigations, protections. And I think one that could be of interest is that there's no pi. So I, you know, that could... I don't think it's in our reference solution. If someone makes assumptions or, you know, like if they think it's randomized or it's not randomized, you could either make them make an invalid solution or make a solution that's far harder than it needs to be. Right. If they know what changes have been made to the binary, what protections are built into it. Is it going to be randomized or not? Right. And we can see here that the player is kind of recreating basically the algorithm of this challenge. So what we do, right, we generate one page of random data. And the player here is recreating the same randomization using the same seed and dumping this into a file. And speaking of seeds, right, that particular seed, if you actually look at the decompilation, is the date of the eternity test that's featured in the movie Oppenheimer. So there's a lot of little like inside references. I don't think they're going to notice any of that. They're going to be so focused on what they need to do. That's fine. It made us chuckle when we made it. Yeah, we're just having some fun. So we've already got Hypeboi over here with their interactive script able to interact with it to extract those values out. So they're already able to pull this out. Although really pulling it kind of once and then figuring out your solution is going to be the tricky part. Right. So we're going to see, are they going to... this SH64 one. So I assume that's the 64-bit shellcode. They've got their payload. Yeah. They want to find it. Sure enough, yeah, they're writing up a find script. So they're going to look for the bytes within there. Now, it's worth noting, though, I don't think I've seen anyone actually... they may have done it because they're very fast. But I don't see anyone actually trigger the sort of test explosion. Right. Because the pattern... and we debated this even as we were writing it. What was it going to look like when you sort of like targeted a spot? Yeah. And I think they're also... because what we do is, like I said, we have a page of random data. And you can kind of like do a test on one of these... on the coordinates. So we organized this in a 16x256. Yes. Yeah. One page of memory. So it's 1K, right? So 16x256. Yeah. So 1K, not 1... well, it depends on the size of your... Or 4K. Yeah. Anyway. So this is a two-dimensional grid. That's the point. And you can choose a coordinate. And it will put a NOP instruction on that coordinate, but also on each coordinate to the left, right, above, and below that. So it's like a small little cross. A little explosion. Yeah. We debated trying to do like a bigger kind of blast pattern. And we just decided complexity wasn't worth it. We wanted to kind of keep... Oh, there we go. We've got a Nuke offset over there. We saw briefly. So the code actually has the Nuke offset. So I'm glad that they... because it just says, I think, launch, view, and end test in the actual service itself. I really appreciate that they get the reference at least because they did name their function Nuke. So they are aware of that. Yeah. Yeah. So this is basically going to be about, you know, how can you find some of these bytes and make use of them, and like removing, creating like NOP instructions around them so you only get the useful stuff remaining. Yes. And so, again, this is not... your shellcode payload that you start with isn't actually the payload you're ever going to be able to run. No. Because a default x64 shellcode payload is going to have lots of multi-byte sequences that are unlikely to show up in this random page. So what you really are going to have to do is some sort of stager or some sort of like operation that you'll then be able to leverage to put your actual kind of shellcode later. Yeah. So we're really looking to see them, you know, you're going to look for like one or two byte opcodes, right? That's really what you kind of want to see. Yeah. We're already... I love like how fast they are into it though, yeah, because we're already... We're seeing some automation here to like doing a lot of inputs to do all these tests. But I don't see a lot of NOPs back out, so I'm not sure whether they're... Are they restarting? Yeah, also not entirely sure what's going on there. Oh, no, so we did have a function named nuke, right? So I think that's where we got the code. The launch menu actually triggers the nuke function, so it makes sense that they would name it similarly. Right. So, yeah, well, I think we're going to see... Right now they're assuming it's the simplest and they can just pinpoint individual bytes. I don't yet know if... Once they realize that they don't control an exact byte, as well as that they've got to like... I don't know. We'll see. I would think that they would have realized that the exact pattern or shellcode is unlikely to be buried in there, especially with just kind of a random page with a random seed that was sort of an in-joke. They could assume that we picked a particular seed for a particular payload. Right. We picked not for the payload, but for the seed itself to be able to make that. And I think the... What was I going to say? I was going to switch over to MMM and see if we can see here that they are running this in a debugger. And I saw before... We'll see if we see them again. They were looking a little bit, I think, at the registers at the time of calling the shellcode. Because you might get something for free there by having some convenient value in some register. Not just for free, but just knowing in general the state of things and then knowing where you need to go to either be able to get more bytes in there or to call an existing function or to jump to other existing code. Like, whatever you're going to do. And also there is something, I think, as you said, very unlikely to show up in some of these sequences. We do give them a good chunk of data, but it's not that big that you would have interesting things. Yeah, 4,000 bytes. I will say, we just saw a really brief Google search for from hex Python. And it warms my heart, because even these people who are an order of magnitude faster and better than me still have to look at documentation. It does happen. Now, again, HeadBoy did it so fast that you couldn't even see it. Yeah, we're watching both of the screens here. We're trying to switch over and show you all of the interesting things. But by the time they've done it, it's all gone. Sometimes it's just too fast. And these two especially, again, these are the two that have made it the furthest in the competition. They've won the most matches. They are two of the fastest hackers in the world. I don't think there's any question that in terms of raw hacking speed, it's clearly some of the best. It's absolutely insane. And I think it's really cool here. So we are here at the CTF floor at DEF CON, right next to all the teams. And I think we are getting to the very end of it. Yeah, I think it's either done now or just in a few more minutes, the actual end of the game is coming down. So we have a lot of the teams now just standing up and watching the finals, the live stream, which I think is really cool to see that there is an interest for this, a kind of excitement around this. And maybe a little bit of they're glad that they're not the ones being spectated and watching what they're doing. Relief. So I do see on the right, by the way, here on Hypeboy now, we've got an actual disassembly chunk. And that's really, I think, what you're going to want to do. Definitely one of the keys to solving this, certainly at least in our playtest, were find out what's there. You need to find all the possible opcodes you can get currently. Absolutely. Although, so one very like key nuance thing here is that this is disassembled using one particular alignment of this. But since x86 is like a variable length instruction architecture, you might want to insert one byte of NOP and look at what if the instruction started next. You should be dumping your disassembly at every offset. Right. Those are your candidate instructions that you're going to have to look for and find some sequence that will let you get the job. There we go. I saw that over on Jinbo's screen. Yeah. Let's switch over there. We have a output prop gadget. Which does exactly that. Actually, it's going to look... does prop gadget work on just disassembly? Oh no, they're looking for actual gadgets in the binary. But you actually need that same kind of approach on the shellcode. So what I think he was doing, I'm not 100% sure you might see it, is that he dumped the whole blob to a file and then ran prop gadgets on this raw file to get the gadgets that will... And that will give you all the offsets. That is going to check everything. Oh, actually, that's true. But they're not actually prop gadgets because they don't end in a ret instruction. This is shellcode gadgets. And there may be... Maybe they have a thing for that? Maybe there's a setting in... yeah, we could barely see the command that actually ran. So we'll have to go back and... That's very interesting. All right. So we're over in Hypeboy land. We've got our C2W2M2. I need to be able to say it faster. I'm not sure how to say it quickly. I think it's one of those... is it Korean? Hypeboy is a Korean team. Hypeboy is a Korean team. Correct. So I've seen this. I think this is like a... I don't know well enough about it. But this thing with numbers, it's not just random. It means something. But unfortunately, my knowledge is not good enough there. Next year, a Korean caster for live CTF so we can... Yeah. Or just kind of like a small biography of the players. That's true. We should make them do that. So I did see... you know, actually, yeah, looking at that... Look at all those gadgets I found. Those are not the right gadgets. That's not what you want to do. Right. Because those were all limited by jumps or returns at the end of every level. Right, right, right. So this is indeed sort of not a great... I mean, it's close to the right idea. But that's actually limiting a lot of what you can get. You can do a lot more than that. Because you're not running a piece and then returning. You're just going to run them all sequentially. Whatever you left over after you knocked a bunch is what's going to get run. Yes. This is shell code or machine code, not ROP chain. So important distinction there. And, yeah, I think it seems like they're just searching around for various words, right? So I guess they will see all instructions at all offsets maybe eventually. I don't know. Well, if you make ROP gadget output long enough gadgets. I think you can filter. Because sooner or later there will be... well, that's still kind of unlikely. I don't know. How does ROP gadget handle things like invalid opcodes or exceptions? So it still seems a little dicey. And it would have been the work of a few seconds just to throw it into Capstone or any other kind of disassembler. And on the other hand, of course, Hypeboy, yeah, we've got them over here using... I actually haven't seen this one. Diffuse SCA has just an online assembler or disassembler. So they're using that to just look at a couple. They're kind of more in the bespoke process. And so, again, it looked like, though, they're running at the same kind of limit. You know what? Actually, I didn't do it. I might actually step aside and just go find out. I don't know the hints for this challenge. So unless you know what they are, I might go talk to the production crew and get a hint as to the hints. So we know what they're going to do. We'll have you go and just check what the hints are going to be when they come back. And in the meantime, I will keep steering the ship. We are going to switch back over to MMM and see. They are looking in the... What's the file name of their one? I think that's the dumped... Right, so I think it seems like they switched over from using a ROP gadget to more like looking at the disassembly of the dumped bytes. We also, though, see some debugging going on here, checking the contents of the stack. So maybe figuring out if that could be useful. So, still haven't quite seen any of the players actually trying to start building anything. I think it's very much still in analysis and exploration phase of this. And it's going to be really interesting to see what kind of approach they are actually going to go for and what method to actually solve the challenge. As I think Jordan mentioned before, you might be able to do the full shellcode directly by not being in the correct places. I think a probably easier solution would be, as we mentioned, you do a small stager shellcode, maybe like a read syscall onto right after where you are currently located in execution. And then you push just your actual shellcode in that second stage, which would then give you the shell. I mean, there are of course multiple different approaches in this, but I think that would be probably the easiest one. But we will see what the players are up to. Switching back over to Hypeboy, we can see a little bit of scripting going on here in their exploit script. This looks like they were setting up a couple of different interactions with the launch. So doing different of these noppings. You can see there was a large block of nops going on there. Maybe there was something interesting in the middle of the region, and they wanted to just skip that whole part and go down into the middle. You can see there are different regions there in their script. They are starting doing ranges at different offsets. So you can see them highlighting this 5e byte here, for example, which is I think one of the bytes that they had in their assembled code before. But now we have Jordan back with some information from production. I know what our hints are going to be as we get closer in, when they pull up the hints. Right, so we'll let that sit there for a little bit, and then we have them for later. I'm trying to come up with... I didn't write the hints for this, so I'm just trying to figure out what kind of hints would you actually give for this. Because the structure of the challenge, in some sense, is very straightforward. Yeah, I know. The goal is pretty obvious. It's just a question of what stager, what sort of little shellcode payload are you going to use that's going to either get you unrestricted, or read more, or whatever it is that you're actually going to do. Looking from Hypeboy over to MMM, we now start to see a little bit of nukes. They've created this helper function, nukes, to nuke out a whole range of the memory space. This is very similar to what Hypeboy is doing, but they created a helper function for it here. It's still not clear to me, do they realize the pattern of the nukes though? Because it looks like a sequential nuke range. Maybe they're aware in their head. But it's not like they've, for example, written something that can do a two-dimensional grid of nuked out values, and it will compute all of the... No, it is. You can see the nuke there, it's breaking it up into coordinates there. You can see the offset, and then they do the modulo and the division. I'm sorry to get loose, plural, you're right. No, so the nuke singular is converting the single index into two coordinates. And then the nukes is doing this for a whole range. But my point is, that's only going to give you sort of that line. It's going to give you both the main line as well as the above and below. And that's the part that I'm still waiting to see. Yeah, I'm not seeing that as... Right, so they're still kind of, it seems like they're doing very broad strokes, a bit of a crude... So maybe that's what they're doing. Maybe they're finding roughly the things they want, and they get rid of other stuff, and then they try to... Yeah, so I will say, looking at the hints, the first hint is going to do almost nothing. I don't think it's going to tell them anything. It's basically going to give them a minor hint in terms of, they don't need to check each time, essentially. It's going to tell them they can submit lots of nukes at the same time, which they already know that. So that one, both teams are not going to get help for it. However, the second one is very explicit and gives them a hint about kind of exactly our solution, in terms of where a syscall is and how they might want to set up registers for it. So it lays out at least one solution that we know works that could be followed. So it's a pretty explicit hint. But they might not need it, either because they solved it beforehand or because they have a different approach. Like I said, this is definitely one of those... there are a lot of possible solutions. Almost certainly, there's a lot of solutions in this payload. Absolutely. I was hoping to hear, to see... So I think what you're seeing in the debugger output in the bottom right is the resulting shellcode after the test. You can see a lot of knobs. And then you see there, there's like a push and an ADC instruction. So like, you know, they are getting... Oh, I think they're stepping over it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if we do check over to Hypeboy, they are, again, doing these various ranges of numping up. And then you can see there, I think they have this small little stager shellcode that they are aiming for. Like those four instructions. But again, I just don't know that those instructions are going to be... let's see, where was it? Yeah, if we can get back to their code. Now again, we very well could be wrong. They may have a completely valid thing and it may be in the buffer and so it's... So let's think about this for a second. Let's say you would want to do the... like we just want to do a read syscall with the destination being like right after in the shellcode. Right, right, right. So you would need to set the syscall number. You would need to set the destination buffer, the source file descriptor and the length. So you have four registers that you need to set up and then you would need to do a syscall. So at most, five instructions. Depending on what the current registers are, which is what we saw earlier when Jimmo was looking at the current debugger state at the moment of the shellcode. Maybe one of these registers already have a favorable value. Or you could just do like an exchange instead of like a... which is a single byte opcode, right? To be able to swap your registers, you can get that. Of course, that is also the case where you can get more than five instructions because like... Well, maybe it's too much to set... do like immediately just like a move. Yeah, intermediate. Yeah, and then maybe you get two convenient instructions. So I am seeing... okay, so Hyper over there has a couple of opcodes in the middle of their payload that they're looking up. So if they... but again, it's just interesting. It's not a single instruction that you have to run, right? It's because you can't assemble like five bytes with knobs in between that are all parts of an instruction. No, no, no. Like you really have to get contiguous bytes for... so you want either small opcode lengths. Yeah. But I definitely see... yeah, so let's watch this again. If we see with this scrolling up, they're looking for... there we go. They've got a five, seven... okay. So I think they do. I'm really looking forward to kind of keeping an eye on this. I'm going to go back and look at that. They've got some single byte opcodes I think they're going for. So I do think they are trying to create... Right, you can see they're in the middle of the knob block. They have the five apps. From earlier, and they've got a couple of the four, seven that was further up. So they're keeping a couple of these things handy. So I'm just trying... they're tabbing out so quickly. But it looks like most of the instructions they were going for were single byte knob codes. So that's really... so knob code. It's been that long of a competition. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, there's some terrible noise going on in this room, but... I think the contest room is literally being disassembled around us. A lot of the other contests are actually ended, being kicked out of the space. Right. Only CTF here in our little particular corner. Yeah, I hope that sound does not come through on the stream. It's like someone going with a... not a drill, but a... Impact hammer. No, like a screw driver. It's a particular kind of driver that actually hammers it each time, too. I've seen the same thing over there on MMM, where you see there's a bunch of knobs. There's a couple of... so they're definitely building their payloads up. We've got a PopParty. There we go. PopPartyEye is exactly one of those that might get you what you want, depending on if they have a push earlier. Right, or if there was already something convenient on the stack. On the stack, exactly. So there's both possibilities. So, for example, because if it's a call instruction into the shellcode, you will have... no, wait, actually... You'd have the return address. No, which is not really that important. Well, but you might just be able to pop twice, for example. You might be able to pop one and do a register and ignore it, then do another pop. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's other things higher in the stack. Maybe the address of the shellcode area is on the stack. If you pop a few times, you get that, which you then would have as your destination buffer. So that could be an approach. I do think it is funny. We saw this last year as well, too. The further we get in the bracket, the harder it is to commentate because they're so darn fast. They just go at blazing speed. We should have a button that temporarily slows down. I know. We need to be able to pause and push frame, actually. Let's go back to the headboard real quick. We saw the same buffer briefly. They're building their payloads. And I'm wondering, we've got this LEN16 down here. The LEN16, I think, is there. Oh, is that it? The LEN16, I assume, is if they've got their 16 bytes of shellcode that they want to run afterwards. They're checking the length, so the argument they want to set is 16. Right, for the reads. I think both of them look like they're basically doing the same thing. This is sort of our solution. Very, very close. I don't know for certain, but it absolutely feels like they're both very close. It's hard to track it. We can see here, single-stepping through the... There we go. Dump all the bytes. Dumping it out. Checking more. Just all knopped out. Let's see what happens when you knop. They are 10x reverse engineers. Adrian, see you in the chat there. They are very, very, very fast. Okay, what was the byte? Scroll up again. If they saw it, I couldn't. It was too fast. So they've got to step a bunch. You probably want to step 10 times or something. Oh, and now we've gone off the edge of the page. Okay, there's a bunch of null bytes. You've seen that instruction before. The add with the AL. It's like, well, this is no longer... There we go. Push RDI. Push RDI. So we've got to push. There was something else. Pop RSI. So moving registers. And then pop RDI again. So they've saved maybe RDI. So what is the... you have the syscall in racks. There's the syscall at the very end. Okay, so their buffer has it. If they've done the arguments correctly, this actually could be a solution. No, they scrolled. I don't see the register. So RDI is there. So they're at the syscall. But we don't have... so RSI... RDI, RSI, RDX. Is that the syscall? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go. RDI, RSI. No, sorry. I think those are the registers of interest here, if I don't misremember. Plus the RAX for the read. I don't know. We've got an accept over on the other side, too. This is the debugger. Right. Hold on. I think we're going to each have to watch our respective screens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You watch MMM and I'll watch Pipeline. Yeah, this is so close. So they are now doing a send with the generated shellcode from PwnTools. And this is... Oh, my God. They've also got to compute the offset they're going to want to write the bytes to or they're going to have to nuke the rest of the string. Switching the... He had the wrong shellcode because he hadn't set the PwnTools generator because he didn't set the context on D64. Yep, there it goes. So it was the wrong shellcode. And now he's getting the remote... Oh, no. Is it this close? Yeah. This could be it. This could be MMM for the win. This could very much be it. Could MMM keep going and winning? Is this going to run live? Oh, my God. It's running. Is this going towards the remote? Do we have a shell? No, he's now adding the port. Okay, so he did it. I think he did it locally. He got the shell right. And now I think he's running it against the remote. We might have the end of the live safety app. So we have submitter. And is it? Is it? No. Okay. All right. That was nerve-wracking. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So there's something that didn't quite work there. Something isn't quite there. Yeah. Now, did it work locally? I don't know if I ever saw a shell locally in the Docker. So there's now some troubleshooting that's going to be going on there. Yes. And I'm not seeing us quite as close still over on Hypeboy watching their screen. They're still working through a couple of bytes. Whether it's because they're moving their payload, I'm not sure yet. So I'm going to switch over to Hypeboy and check there. Still calculating the bytes. Still trying to look for them in the payload. Still calculating what's not bad. I think we need to keep an eye over on MMM. Yeah, I'm going to switch back to MMM. He's switching out the shellcode for a cat ETC password to get quicker feedback. And he's just repeating the shellcode. Oh, this is kind of like full-on panic mode. Oh, no. We're trying to get it in there. Is it running? Oh, my God. So, yeah, this is... Well, a hint will do nothing to help you. No, no, no. It's just we can't figure out what's the problem with this payload. They both know everything. So this is going to be so... Oh, is he using some kind of gadget? And let's see. No, but he shouldn't be using any... Interesting. A bunch of reads. So trying to figure out, I guess... Oh, there was an open call to ETC password, right? So it seems to be working. They should be able to run it. Just Submitter 2. Running Submitter 2 in there might even be enough. It could also be a difference between local and remote. Although, are they using... I was trying to see if he was using any, like... But that would only matter for, like, I don't know, libc gadgets, which I haven't seen. There shouldn't be any in the payloads, right? I couldn't think of any differences. So, yeah, that's not entirely sure why it's not working. Oh, this must be so stressful for the players. There was a syscall being made there. We can see in the Ptrace... Sorry, the Strace output. And, yeah, I mean, they could... This is really the situation where, like, you know, you could have it within 10 seconds. Or it could take, like, another 5 minutes. Yeah, yeah. Or even more. And I'm just keeping an eye over on Highboy. We don't have to switch back. No. Just to give you kind of an update. Yeah. I almost... There's this long pause where C2WTM2 kind of, like, looked at it and was just, like... You get the feeling they're not sure if their solution is right. They actually just comment out a whole bunch of code. Right. They're kind of backing off and, like, starting from scratch because they've also run into bugs. They're not getting the payload that they want. So, they're still working on the payload. Yes. Looks here like it's doing the wrong syscall. If I'm reading... The syscall number is wrong. They're getting some 7F address instead of the syscall number. So, maybe... Could it... I don't really see how that would happen, but could it possibly be that, like, one of the registers... It shouldn't be a different state. No, I mean, it shouldn't be. I can't imagine why that would be the case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very, very interesting. But... No, no. There was a syscall zero. So, I think that was fixed. So, now it could really be... Looks like he's swapping out the... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going back to shellcode. Rerunning that. Sorry, like, shellcode that pops a shell. And... Yeah. We're still going to keep it here on MMM. And see... It looks closer now. Get it here. Now, it feels like they were kind of going back and forth. Remove the sleep. And making another attempt at this. And... Yeah, there's, you know, there's just something that's not quite... Did we run our... We need to check our logs to make sure we ran our test script before. Because we've been ensuring every challenge was solvable by running a solve script. Yeah. And I'm going to go look in our own logs. I want to make sure we ran it. There's not any kind of bug in our infrastructure. I think we're good. We didn't do it. We did, as our standards, we ran a test solve immediately before it. So, our infrastructure... Yeah. So, we have confirmed that we have a reference solution that does work. Okay. Good. I was almost getting a bit nervous. No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Because, you know, we have had our fair share of accidents throughout this event. Although, I think, in general, it's been a pretty smooth ride. Stressful here and there, but... Other than random hardware failures. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, you know, first day morning was not fun. But we are here and we, yeah. So, Hypo, it still seems like they've kind of walked back their whole payload. They've been rebuilding it. And, again, you can see the process is they're looking for the bytes that they want for their little simple payload. So, there's their payload right there. PushRDIPuppers. What's this? We need to go back, apparently. We're supposed to look at MMM. It sounds like we're close. We got a little update. We needed to keep an eye over there. Okay. I mean, they are close. There's no question about that, but... Right. I still think we're working through stuff. Yeah. I'll keep you an update then. Right. Just Hypo, what the solution is. Yes. We need to keep an eye and make sure we don't miss anything. Oh, they're just dumping in like a big knob sled there. Or like a knob. Maybe just like... Oh, so... I was thinking whether it could be something with the read call and the difference in behavior. Like a flush or... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a local versus over the network thing. Yeah. Because the read... You know, it will only... It will probably just give you... If you do one read call, it'll probably just give you... From like a network socket, it'll probably give you just one packet. Right? Or... Like up to that. So there could be a difference there on a read on a local versus over the network. I do want to keep an eye. Because actually, I think both of their payloads are identical. Now that I think about it. I think they really have almost the exact same... Next time HypeBoys comes up, I'm going to try to take a look at it. But it looked like we were seeing a very, very similar push-pop pattern. Excuse me. They both did the register state. They were both looking up for the... But we're seeing... So I'm just watching them do the same thing. They're kind of byte at a time extracting those arguments that they want to back out. Knopping off everything else. And we have absolutely got the rest of the CTF ended. So everyone is standing around the screens. They're watching. Oh, there's a shell. There's a shell. There was a shell. So that must have been local, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So they have a shell popped. So now we're going to see them... Can they run it? Wait, wait. What are they doing? They have a shell? I'm a little bit confused. Why? What's missing? They're looking for another gadget still, it looks like. Okay. Oh, did they cook that? Was that the reason they got the shell? Maybe they did a manual thing in the debugger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now they're actually making sure that their payload is actually doing... The first three pops, RSI, RDRX, is our... I should take a picture of my camera. Get my phone on this and do the freeze frame. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it looks like they have slightly different payloads. So they're not exactly the same. Because I'm seeing more pops over on the MMM side than what... Right. So MMM here has very, very conveniently written out their payload inside the exploit script. It's nice. So it's a push RDX, pop RSI. So they're moving RDX... Into RSI. RSI. And then they're doing pop RDI three times. So they're fetching something that's already on the stack. Yeah, it sounds like that pointer to the buffer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We talked about that earlier. It's very likely there's a pointer to the buffer previously in the stack. And so they're reusing that. And now they're bringing out strace again to double check that their payload is doing what they expect it to do locally. Now they're switching it to remote. Is that... No, they're looking at debugger though. Okay, there we go. Okay. No, they're still doing... Right, but they were switching the variables. They were switching the host to the remote. Why are they still on the strace window then? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So now they're checking the other thing. Oh, I see that the syscall number was wrong again there if I saw that correctly. So this is... Oh, my God. This is very stressful. I don't envy either one of them. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really... And now they're doing some manual assembly, finding... Oh, wait. They're finding... Okay, they're finding instructions inside the dumped blob of the challenge. They're looking for some of these gadgets. Let's call them that. Yeah, and... Yeah, they're kind of also reworking their... Yeah, they're reworking their payload now actually. So they're changing it up. So now we have a pushRDX, popRSI, and a pushRAX and popRDI. So moving RDX into RSI and moving RAX into RDI. But then you would still need to set the syscall number there. So we'll see how that will work out. And I'm just watching over here as hype boy essentially. Literally line by line trying to inspect each line of the output and looking for a particular byte. They're not even using any tooling essentially. It's like the most manual process. Line by line, check for what the disassembly of a particular byte is. And then I assume they're trying to keep track in their head how many lines down they are. So they know the offsets of how much to not. But it feels like the kind of thing where they thought they would be faster manually. And if instead they would have written a script to look for those bytes and knock everything else out, they probably would have done it a while ago. It's always this thing when you're in a speed setting. Do manual versus automation. I think there's an appropriate XKCD comic about this with the graphs and the speeds. There's an inflection point where it's worth it and it's not. You don't know until it's too late as to whether you did the right thing or not. I will say it is much easier to read MMM's exploit with their Nuke script versus the multiple lines. Let's go back to MMM. We're seeing some read calls now. And now there's a shell there. Oh my god. So now they managed to switch up the payload a little bit. They managed to fix that up. Now they're throwing it against a remote server. Let's see. What are they doing? Are they running it? Are they running it? We see... No. Oh, it didn't work. Okay. So they're switching the... Cat the submitter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not working remotely. No. So you know what I think it is. You can see what they're sending. They're sending a very large NOP prefix. And I think it might be this local network. So it will get fragmented. And the read call on the remote server will only return a limited chunk of this. I wonder if there's a syscall. If they look for a syscall at the end of the binary. No, but there's a very... Because then the distance between where they're writing is going to be smaller. They don't need to write. So they're writing as their secondary payload a very, very long buffer, right? Yep, yep. If they shorten that buffer there, they don't have to worry about that packet difference. Oh, they're looking for hints. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're looking for hints. 800 seconds until sudden death. Yeah. Oh, no. So... All right, we still have time for sudden death. The hints aren't going to help them. They know exactly what they've got to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The hints are not there. But like I said, just looking at that, my guess is... I think the problem they're running into is that NOP payload, as you were saying, is too big. Because they're running into issues with latency on the network versus on the local socket. And they're not being flushed. Yep. So I think what they need to do there is to shorten that NOP payload. If they bring down the NOPs and then they tighten up where the syscall is actually running from where they're writing their bytes into. Right? So, for example, maybe they'd actually need to add something to the... If the pointer they're popping is at the beginning of the buffer, for example, instead of the end of the buffer. Or... I don't know exactly what they're getting at the argument for the destination where the receive is. But it's too far away from where they're writing, which is why they're putting all those NOPs into it. Right. So they need to shrink those up and make them closer together to make that buffer smaller. And manage to somehow add to the... So that it's reading further away. Or if they could find a relative jump later in the payload. Yes. And then still just put their payload in the beginning and do a jump back to the beginning where their stuff would be picked up. The problem is that's easy to reason about if you know that this is the issue. Right. But maybe, you know, this is something you miss. Yeah. So this is like one of the... And we're not even 100% positive that is the issue. No, no, no. This is our best guess. And I think it was a good assumption. Yes. So it is entirely possible that Hypo actually kind of comes from behind this sort of slow and steady pace as they're manually... Right. ...creating this still payload. They're still working through it. This has actually bitten me as an organizer sometime. We've got a syscall, by the way, over here. Okay. Let's switch over to Hypo. Let's go back over here. Yeah. Because they do indeed have a syscall and they're looking... They've got a breakpoint. Okay. So they're setting their breakpoint. Let's go ahead and see. They're looking at the register state at the breakpoint. Yeah. And I think there was a zero in the syscall number if I'm not mistaken. And then you see... Okay. Yeah. So it's a syscall. So they are going to call their syscall. They're looking at the arguments to make sure they've got this all right. So what is... They're checking at the contents. So they're checking what RDI is pointing at. Although those look like... There's a movie X zero. It's pointing at the main. So they're actually... Yeah. Hmm. Interesting. I'm not sure I entirely follow what's going on there. But you can definitely see that it is executing the syscall. So that's a very good progress on that part. The problem is still, if we look over on the MMM side, that you have this big knob thing. Right. And this is not going to work. And I was going to say that this has bitten me as an organizer because I have built challenges and then tested them locally on my machine. Yeah. And they worked perfectly fine. But then when we deployed it for the competition, because of this discrepancy, the challenge was almost unsolvable. Speaking of which, I'm going to go talk to the production team and make sure that when we run our tests... No, no, no. We do it from a separate machine. Do we? I... Do we do it from a separate machine? I'm going to go ask. And we're going to make sure that that's the case. Just because I don't want that to be... Yeah. Right. I mean, so you do that. But, of course, in this case, there is definitely ways to do that. And we... Oh, I mean, what I'm saying is that there's definitely ways to solve this anyway, even if this would be the case. But this is still very frustrating for the players. This must be extremely stressful for them. And... So not only are we running it, running our test remotely, we're doing it right now in the competition. Glenn's over there. He's actually tested it. His payload still works. It works on the game infrastructure from another machine. He's not running the submitter, but he is able to verify that it's working. So there's no reason that... So we are... I think we are not to blame here. But it is still heartbreaking to be that close. But I want to switch over to Hypeboy. And we unfortunately just missed it. But what was going on there? I saw a much shorter NOP prefix. Look at the comments. They've commented out most of their lines that are doing the NOP. Right. So they're kind of like starting over. This is actually the third time or second or third time I've seen them do this. Where they're kind of like rethinking everything and starting back over. Yeah. We should probably make sure that we have our sudden death just in case. Because not yet, but we have to have it ready. Yeah. I think they have about ten minutes. We still have another ten minutes, I think. But at some point... I think it's nine minutes or so remaining on the challenge. Which... Yeah. So... It's really interesting to see here. But I think... So he keeps switching it up. But unfortunately, I think that as long as that thing... That long prefix is there, it's not going to work. We have about eight minutes left, I think, until the official 15-minute mark. Which is where we've been calling all sudden deaths. This is the last match of the day, though. I would hate to go to a sudden death. Yeah. But we do actually have a hard stop. Because we have to give these scores to DEF CON. Because they have to go into the final event. Yeah. So we'll have to talk that over and figure out what we're going to do. Yeah. If we get something. Then again, it was... What was it? 40 seconds before the sudden death the last time? Oh my god, yeah. It was MMM that even did that? Yeah, yeah. It was not in the previous match, but the match before. Not one right before, but a previous match. Yeah, exactly. And now they are bringing up the distributed libc as well, which is interesting. I wonder what they're going to do. Are they trying to go for a one gadget thing or something? But, yeah, I think the fundamental problem there... Oh, sorry, I'm talking about the wrong screen here. Sorry, I was on over on MMSI. Let's switch over here to MMSI. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry about that. So what just happened on MMSI, it was like... He brought up the libc with distributed with this and he was looking around. Unfortunately, I think there is this fundamental issue with the solution where the payload, the secondary stage is too long. Yeah, yeah. I think they're going to continue to run into that as well. So, honestly, if Hypeboy can actually build their payload and they're able to target it more precisely, get it closer to where their code is being written to, closer to where that syscall instruction is actually being called, that could be the win, but neither... I mean, yeah, it's hard to say. It's rough seeing that go from like a working local and it just not working... Oh, yeah, that must be like... If they lose this, that must be so frustrating. At least we have a plausible hypothesis about why this... Why this particular payload is not working in our particular solution. That's still... Because otherwise it can be very frustrating as a player. If there is something wrong with the challenge or something like this. But I think, in this case, it is actually completely fair. The read call is doing exactly what the read call is supposed to do. It's just that it's very easy to forget about this discrepancy between over-the-network versus local. And there's no easy way to call another flush. To call flush again would actually be a whole other syscall that they have to find and set up and do. Right, and it's not even flush. It's like when you're sending the... I think the read call on the server side will only read... Oh, you would have to do multiple reads? Yes, exactly, but then you would need to adjust the offset. And if you can adjust the offset, you can just do it immediately. Right, right, right. So... So yeah, they're definitely going to have to step back, take a look and do a different payload though. And I am wondering, it's possible too that even if Hypeboy comes up with their solution that works locally, they run into the same problem. It may be that their first attempt does the same thing. Yeah, that would be... We haven't actually seen their shellcode at the end yet, because they've kind of never gotten to the point where even they were able to get it working locally, unfortunately. Right. And how are we doing on time? About five minutes or so left? It looks like we've got about six minutes left. Oh my god. Five and a half minutes before we are scheduled to go to... So I'm going to go ahead and go have a chat with Prod, make sure we're ready with... And I need to actually literally check with Nautilus Institute, because I need to know our hardstop deadline, because we may have a hardstop where we cannot go later to report scores. I want to switch over to MMM, because I saw another shell pop, but as I said, that big, large prefix is still there, so I don't think it's going to make a difference. And oh my god, I cannot imagine being in their shoes right now and having this complete stress of knowing your popped shell locally in six different ways, but it's not working over the network. And unfortunately, the fundamental issue is still there. It's heartbreaking, honestly. I'm not saying that I'm rooting for anyone in particular, but it would be so devastating to be in this situation and then not manage to win. So I'm kind of hoping that they manage to get it through, but yeah, again, once you've kind of gone down the incorrect path and you're kind of locked into that, it's so very difficult to take a step back and go for a different approach, because you're sitting there and you're thinking like, you know, if I just change this little thing, it will work, but I don't think it will, unfortunately. And this is causing problems here. We are queuing up the sudden death. It's not there yet. We just saw a screen a little bit on the screen. They were double-checking the time as well. I think we still have about three minutes left, but it's close. And we are going to queue it up. Unfortunately, I really would love to see the team solve this, but we do have to go with a sudden death just because if they get stuck on this, we can't report a result, which holds up DEF CON, which holds up the main award decision. So it's a bummer, and I would love to have seen this one solved, but right now, although I am seeing... Run line after, they're doing some more interaction here, adding another... They're done with their not... Oh, so they're putting... Oh, that's okay. Yeah, they're doing the exact same problem. That not payload is way too big. That is way too big. If we had multiple other QA testers and we had run into this, we might have known to put a hint earlier, unfortunately. So the problem was that the test solution from our tester was not doing it like this, so they didn't hit this problem, so we didn't even think about it. We didn't foresee it as an issue. If we had, we might have been able to give them better hints. So it's unfortunate, but it does happen. So again, we're about two minutes out from the sudden death, so we're preparing it, getting it ready on the server. It's not looking good, unfortunately. We're still seeing these massive prefixes. Wait, no. They don't know if they're throwing it locally or remotely, but they had something they thought worked. Oh, they're just trying random not blanks. Yeah, and... Yeah, we're going to need to post our solution on Twitter afterwards, so they know that it was... I can imagine there being a certain level of frustration from the players at this moment, but... It happens, and honestly, I think we've had about one sudden death. 83 seconds left, it's on the screen right there. Okay, yeah, that's... Yeah, Hypeboy's... Hypeboy's running it. No, I don't think either one... This is very, very tough right now. Doing it remotely again, I think they're just going for desperation now. I don't know, you would like to increase your MTU or something like this? Yeah. I wonder if you could actually make... Because since they are on the same network, it's... Well, I guess that depends on the routers. If the switch supports jumbo frames or not that they're on. Yeah, yeah, which it's a cheap generic switch, so I'm not sure that would have been... No one, I think anyone is even going to think in that direction. Yeah, yeah, I don't think they realize that that's exactly what... I'm not even sure it would work, but, you know, they're not going to try that. Okay, I think we're coming down to just the last few seconds. 20 seconds left before it's going to go. 20 seconds, we see some more Astrace outputs here. And, yeah, it's truly... Wait a minute, Hypeboy, what is Hypeboy doing? They're copying shellcode. Do they actually have a working shellcode? No. No, because they still have the large prefix. Unless there's something else that was wrong and different. I mean, unless we are completely wrong. Yeah, exactly. If we're wrong and this works, then I don't think there's even enough time, though. It's going to be real close. So they have a shell there. They have a shell. So let's see if they can switch it to remote. But I think they're going to hit the same... Oh, no. I think their team saw the shell. But, again, I don't think it's going to work. They're going to try it remotely. Yeah. And we're just about to go to sudden death. Did he get it in time? Did he actually throw it? Sorry, I'm checking. We got to check our logs now. Yeah. Did it actually happen? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We know, but it wasn't going to work remotely anyway. Yeah, yeah. He's going to have the same problem, I think. Yeah. So, yeah. So we are going to go to a sudden death. I'm just going to go over to... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't going to work anyway. Yeah, I'm going to go over to production and... Yeah, yeah. The crowd just realized the same thing. Yeah. So, yes. Oh, that is heartbreaking. Yeah. At least let them know it wasn't going to work anyway, probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to have to explain that to the players. We're going to have to let them know. Yeah, yeah. We're going to get reset. We're going to put this down for just a second. Let's go back to the bracket just for just a second while we reset things. And we'll be back in just a few seconds."
}