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    "text": " Thank you all for joining us for Not All Alerts Born Equal, guys. And today, I'm very excited to moderate this panel. And I'm actually going to interview this top professional. But even before we start, maybe we had a change in staffing. So we were supposed to have Kunal from Sentinel-1. And before that, I told him, Kunal, break a leg before that. And he actually broke his leg. And he went back home, flying back home. And I appreciate the fact that Kiran was able to fill in so immediately and promptly. So thank you so much. And of course, to the amazing team of the APSEC village for accommodating all these changes so fast. So with no further ado, my name is Shachar Mann. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Backslash Security. Previously, I was building from scratch the engineering and product team of a company called Aqua Security. With some nice open sources we put out there, like Trivy and Cubebench, et cetera, for the community. And now I started my own company, Backslash. It's more about application security. But let's start with our panelists. We start with Tripti. So Tripti is a senior engineering product security manager at Datadog. A mobile developer turned APSEC partitioner with 18 plus years of software security experience. Now, she believes security and mindfulness go hand in hand. The fun fact about her, she just came back from a 10 days vipassana. So she was not speaking in the last, I don't know, 10 days. I hope you can speak today, Tripti. I'll try my level best. Okay. Yeah, she's back. And then Kiran. Kiran is responsible for the security engineering function at eBay. He's been in the space of security for over 10 years. Works closely with the eBay security incident response function. And also works in the space of APSEC and offensive security for eBay. Last one, Joe. Joe Christian. Currently serves as the engineering manager for the DevSecOps platforms team at Paylocity. Previously, Joe held leadership positions at Brex and Zappos. Joe is also a cyber defense PhD student at Dakota State University, as you can read on his T-shirt. When not worrying about security, you can find Joe hiking various national parks across the U.S. So let's give them all a shout out and let's just... So let's start, you know, with your vast experience in the industry. Maybe a question to all of you. What kind of security best practices you use today which you found efficient in your daily work, especially when it comes to APSEC alerts? So many of them. Hi, everyone. How are you all doing here at Vegas? Can I have a bigger shout out? There you go. So in last 18 years, during my software security or application security career, I must have tried to use at least 25 plus security scanners product, security testing tools, ranging from, you know, static code analysis, dynamic application security testing, cloud security posture management, interactive application security tooling. Oh, my God. And I can go on and on. And guess what? During my early career years, I experienced so much fatigue of these security alerts and security findings that I quit my job twice. And that's when I realized, well, quitting is not going to help. No matter where I go, which company I join, the tools I use, the situation is pretty much going to be the same. That's when I put on my creative, innovative hat and started looking into how can I manage this avalanche of security alerts findings. And the first thing, which is obvious, is the risk severity. But that's not the way to go. I started focusing more on the exploitation share, which ones of these are actually exploitable versus not. I can give a breather to my developers if something is not exploitable. Then the second thing is blast radius, how much it's going to take to remediate, what are the efforts really required. So, yeah, these were some of the simple techniques that I could come up with after talking to the development team. And we could mutually agree which ones are the prioritized findings that we need to knock down right away and which ones we can simply wait. Great. Kiran, same question. That's really cool. So actually on similar lines, the company I work for, scale is a huge, huge problem. So being as close to your developers is a formula that has worked for us in integrating with CI, CD pipelines, making sure that the alerts are in the hands of the right people, running the right tool at the right time. Also, just don't throw everything at them. Make sure that it is actionable, that there is something that they can do, they understand it, have that relationship and negotiation. That's worked for us fairly well. I'm probably the one jaded person here. I think just working in security generally, there's a lot of new technologies that constantly evolve and emerge. At the end of the day, it's focusing on the basics. So we constantly hear asset management, asset management, asset management. But how many of you actually know what's on your network, what's on your perimeter, what's going on? You probably don't. You've probably tried to do a CMDB. It's gone horrible. So it's really hard, but I think when you're looking at alerts, it's why is this alert tied to this particular system important, right? Is there PII on the system? Is it publicly exposed? There is a science to it, but I think where most folks get tripped up is they're like, oh, I'm worried about containers, I'm worried about XYZ. Really, I think it's just about the basics. Do you know what you have on your network? Can you secure it? I mean, there's dozens and dozens of different guidelines, right? There's NIST guidance, there's OAuth guidance. All says the same thing. You got to know your assets, got to harden it, do your thing. So, I mean, that would be my kind of primer, but I'm kind of jaded. So start with that. Absolutely. That's all great ideas. So maybe, Tupti, we go back to you and go even deeper with the reason you quit your job twice. So alert fatigue is a common challenge for security teams. How do you address this issue and prevent alert overload, ensuring your team can focus on the most important alerts? Acknowledging you're not being able to get to all of them. Yeah, so I'm sure how many of you are security engineers here versus developers? Security engineers, raise your hands. Okay, developers, please raise your hand. Okay, we have quite a few developers as well. So honestly speaking, the truth about security industry is most of the security tools are there in their first generation. And as a result, they have built tools that work. They have not built tools keeping the context in mind. If we consider the context of the application, the assets that we are trying to protect, context around the data that we are trying to protect, what we experience is suddenly the huge avalanche of alert goes significantly down. Then the next prioritization, once we focus on our crown jewels, is try to identify if this is something public facing or internal facing. Now in today's era, just like any other state actor, even malicious insider is a big threat, right? Do you agree with me? Yes. So the important thing here is how can we identify quickly what are the existing detective control or compensating control are already in place. So this is the second factor that can help us further reduce the number of alerts that we need to take. So I always advise my team, don't go just by the scanner output. Try to get the context by understanding the business criticality. Try to sharpen your context by understanding the compensating and detective control. And last but not least, get in touch with your development team. They are the one who are going to fix these vulnerabilities. Try to understand their constraint. Before going GA, do they have time to build, to fix this vulnerability or we need to look into adding more alternative security control. So these are some of the techniques I personally use to help my team to mitigate the beast of avalanche of alerts. I would like to give one specific example. How many of you have been using source code analysis tools? So most of the SBOM, SCA, SAS tool, they basically look for, you know, presence of vulnerable code, right? And then they immediately flag this as a vulnerability. Same thing with the software composition analysis tool. They blindly look for the open source library, their version. If the hash matches, they generate avalanche of all the CVEs, known CVEs. So what I have been telling my security team members and security champions mainly is, hey guys, look for if these vulnerabilities are actually exploitable. The vulnerable parameters, the file paths, the functions, methods that are being mentioned in these CVEs. Is your host application actually invoking this? And this is exactly what helps them with prioritization. Compared to 100%, after understanding the exploitability factor, this number goes down to 5%. Fascinating. Thank you for that, Rupti. Next one, Kiran. Let's talk about automation. So automation plays a crucial role in managing security alerts. Can you share examples of how have you automated alert prioritization and response processes? What benefits have you observed from this automation efforts? Absolutely. So I did mention that scale is very important for us in the company that I work for. And without automation, our teams would just get buried with security alerts and findings from all of these tools. So we put a lot of effort in making sure that we are in the pipelines, that the alerts and findings are going to the teams. But one thing that you have to keep in mind, the first time you do it, and this is a story, the first time we automated, got stuff out into developers' hands, I think we were not very empathetic. And it was an avalanche of alerts and findings in their space. So having that feedback loop is very important. The feedback and that conversation. In a past life, I was a software developer, so I know some of that pain. The two o'clock nights, you're trying to hash out stuff, things are not working. Maybe that one time when something works, you go, oh, yes. And so you want to have that empathy and that feedback loop to make sure that things are coming back. And in some cases, you can also even put it back into maybe frameworks that you already have or in the requirements and saying, don't do this. By starting right, you may prevent a lot of things further down the line. Actually, I can add a little bit more. Those who are especially early in their AppSec career, I highly recommend configuring their security scanning tools correctly, shifting the focus on crown jewels. Many times, if the security tool is not correctly configured, it can also generate a lot of noise. Once you configure, then the next step is fine-tuning the tool so that we can get rid of those low-hanging fruit, repetitive findings. And third, very, very important here, whether you are running AppSec tool or a threat detection tool, having automated response to manage the beast of alerts is extremely important. So definitely spend a few software engineering cycles to ride that automation. Your developers will bless you. Joe, would you like to add something? I'll add one other thought. So a lot of times when we port these vulnerabilities or different findings from tools, what do we do? We port them directly from the tool, and they're really cumbersome, right? And when we give them to the developer teams, they're confused because they go through and they're like, what am I looking at? It's not concise, it's confusing, right? Especially if you're looking at things like transit dependencies, it's very nested. So it can get confusing very, very quickly. So automation is a great first step, but I would also say when you're looking at particular bug classes, so whether it's like SQL injection, cross-site scripting, things like that, try to dive in a little bit further and try to make it more concise for your developer team. If you can do that with the automation, there's less back and forth with you as the security team, because the development teams are constantly going back to security engineers and they're saying, I got this ticket, I don't know what it means, can you help me? And what does that do? That drains a lot of cycles for security personnel and the development team. And quite honestly, we need to do a better job of that as well. So part one I would say is definitely automation, but part two is making it a little bit more concise and adjustable. Absolutely. So Joe, while you have the microphone, another one for you. So context, let's talk about context. Since context is a key understanding the impact of security alerts, and you've all touched that, so how do you ensure that alerts are assessed within the proper organizational context? Are there specific approaches or frameworks that help? How do you get this comprehensive understanding of what does it really mean in the context of what we're looking at? Sure. So many folks might not like this, but there is no silver bullet, unfortunately. Applications, when you look at them, there's different levels of PII. Maybe you're storing credit cards, maybe you're storing SSNs or driver's licenses, passports, whatever it may be. You've got some very, very critical information that might be stored on some applications. You might have some that are just a learning management system for training new employees. So you think about that. Then there's also network bounds. Do you have firewalls, DMZs, so on and so forth? Is it internal to your network? You're going to spend a different amount of effort looking for alerts based on the context of the network. And then the other thing we've kind of touched on is you can't just look at the severity rating from the tool and go, oh, it's critical, therefore it must be critical. Do some research and try to understand why is this critical, right? Is there exploitation out there? Is it actively being exploited by an adversary? Is it internet-facing? I think ultimately there are frameworks, but a lot of it is just rationalization and kind of that understanding of what is my network, what's out on my network, and how do I kind of issue that guidance? And then you just kind of pair that with the alerting aspect. I think the last piece of it is just making it concise and communicating it and also knowing that this is an evolutionary process. Applications are being developed very, very quickly, especially with containers and other things that are going on with orchestration. So you need to have a really good pulse with your technology teams to figure out what is their roadmap, what are they building, because no one wants to be on the wrong end of an API being deployed to prod, publicly facing, and you didn't know about it. That's a bad look. So I think, yes, there are some frameworks, there are some guidance, like I said. There's NIST guidance, there's OAuth guidance. There is a lot of good guidance out there, but you really have to digest that and figure out how it applies to your specific organization. So there really is no silver bullet, in my opinion. I would like to add one more thing. Joe brought up a great point of we look at the tools, we look at their severity scores, and we go by that. And it is great advice that maybe they are not as severe as we think because of context. There's also a flip to that. I support our incident response team, and I'm telling you, sometimes there are some that are actually very low scored on the tool, but that can become an incident. So one advice when you're doing these analysis, be prepared for something to go up in severity too. And that's something that I've learned over my career. I 100% agree with Joe and Kiran. What I have seen is we as a security engineering team, we are so hyper-focused on high and criticals that we do not pay attention to the lows and medium. We have a tendency to see a pattern, oh, this is repetition, and we forget. But many times when we consider four mediums and three lows together and build context around that, it actually has the ability to create impact at high severity level. So that vulnerability correlation, and I'll speak more about it later, is extremely important. Gone are the days when we used to look at vulnerabilities in isolation. Now context around the business, as well as the security context, along with the technology context, everything has become extremely important. And let's not forget about product managers and their launch schedule. That context is also very important. We often feel that these launch schedules randomize us. We already have 10 times more workload that we can handle, but that is also very important. If something is going to get released three months from today, let's not worry about that. Let's focus on something that's going to get out in the world right away. So yeah, context is the king. So, Trupti, let's stay with you. So with the increasing volume of security alerts, how do you effectively triage them and differentiate between the critical and non-critical? I mean, process-wise, what do you actually put in place in order to differentiate between those? Yeah, you know, I see that we are, again, going back to the similar conversations, which are the attention-worthy vulnerabilities or alerts and which ones are not, right? When we have so much volume, at my current employer, we have to deal with 18 to 20 security scanners, right? So fatigue is very natural. And coming back to Sher's question, how can we effectively triage them? We already discussed a lot of good points, such as, you know, understanding the exploitability, whether something is external-facing, internal-facing, something is exploitable, not exploitable, is there a clear attack path? But I want to bring the audience's attention towards vulnerability correlation. When we have so many scanners emitting gazillion vulnerabilities constantly, it is probably a good idea to take some time aside and look into some software engineering solution that can correlate these vulnerabilities. Less overwhelming for security engineer and for developer, right? When we have same vulnerability reported by five, six different tools, and we know this is the same thing, shifting our focus on remediation, that's the way to go. So I would say, you know, Sher, in the avalanche of these alerts, if people can find the right tool to correlate vulnerabilities and then shift the focus on remediation, that's the way to go to manage this beast. Maybe one additional point on something that I've been thinking about. So you don't need to do it alone, right? So we have this concept of security champions. Maybe you have it in your company. These are people in your product teams, right, in your dev wars. They have an interest in security. Involve them in your conversations. In fact, there was one, when we started up our security champions program, there was always one or two people that were very, very focused, challenging us as to why are you doing this? Why are you not doing this? Why don't we, I don't know, ride this much ahead? And one actually came over to our AppSec team, too. So great source of talent sometimes, right? So you use other resources and people in your company in that space to do some of this, too. Great point, Kiran. And I want to add that many times security engineers, they feel the burden, oh, we have to do it all. And somehow they feel that it's not okay to disturb the developer or engineering manager. Guess what? You don't want to get burned out. You don't want to face that alert fatigue. Start involving them. These are their application. They own it. As such, security teams don't own anything. And when we reach out to them, they know it is important. They are not going to ignore you. In fact, they will become our partners and help us build that deeper technical context that as a security engineer we may not have. So without any fear, definitely involve the developers, engineering manager, directors you work with. They will expedite your things. Then train them and then hand over the vulnerability triage, not just the remediation work, but the overall triage and assessment work to them. So thank you very much, Kiran, for mentioning the role of security champions here. Yeah, Kiran, let's move back to you and talk a little bit about ASPM. It seems like a new category is shaping, starting earlier this year, application security posture management with a lot of hype around it. It represents a major shift in how organizations manage application security, moving from siloed individual approach into more integrated contextual one. So do you agree with this statement, what's happening in this area? I absolutely agree with that statement. In fact, Joe actually brought it up earlier. It's about security basics, right? It's about knowing what's on your network, what's going on. So we have actually done this in the infrastructure vulnerability space. Because a little bit of the incident response side, it's worked over there fairly well. And I'm surprised we have not done this already. And I know in some aspects of DevOps, DevSecOps, we do it all and we have done it. But the fact that the terminology and this focus on it, I'm absolutely excited and thrilled about it. Anyone else? Yeah, I think application security posture management is a fairly new category. For many of the AppSec or software security engineers, it did not exist five, six years back, right? It's fairly new. We as AppSec engineers, we were so hyper-focused on just looking at one service, one application or a data center or a library, that we would lose the big picture. And this is exactly where application security posture management comes up. It helps us think strategy point of view. Okay, this is my network. These are the 10,000 applications my team is responsible for securing. How can I look at it from AppSec posture management? Which ones I need to protect? Which ones already got good coverage? Where I can put strong remediation control that can mitigate the entire category of vulnerabilities. So I think application security posture management is the way to go going forward. We cannot keep relying on just SAST or secret scanner or DAST. I think application security posture management brings together all the AppSec tools. So extremely crucial. And I urge all AppSec engineers here to take some time aside and learn about it. How these tools work versus working with individual tools in isolation. Next one is to you, Joe. It's more about the process and the human part of the process and resource allocation. So how do you prioritize and allocate resources for addressing high priority alerts in your team today? Yeah, I think there's two things, right? We talked a bit about severity, right? And a lot of us are probably like, oh, I've got a CVSS assigned to this vulnerability or whatnot. But that's usually generated off the base score, not temporal or your environment of what's actually being construed. So one is not just taking those base scores and actually applying some science behind it and figuring out how does this apply to my network. The other thing is, is Jerry Gamblin out in there? Is he out in the audience? I talked to him earlier. Maybe not. He did talk at BSides earlier this week, and he developed a web app called PatchThis.app. I don't know if anyone's heard of it. But it basically takes CISA's KEV, so Known Exploitable Vulnerabilities, if I could talk today, and EPSS. And it's basically just a threat feed for those vulnerabilities. And so when you look at critical and high alerts, there's a lot of fatigue there because you're getting a lot because typically the CVSS is pretty high because the researchers are like, I want a high CVSS. And this is how I'm assigning the scoring to it. But the question is, right, is that really exploitable? Is this really, should I be spending my time? So if you take those other kind of like vulnerability intelligence feeds and kind of applying that to your list, it cuts down pretty drastically. So that's the first part. The second piece we kind of talked about as well is automation, making sure it's ingested preferably into a single pane of glass. So we've talked about how there's dozens and dozens of scanners, right? There's SAS, there's DAS, there's SCA. There's a lot of different technologies that's coming in, but you want to ingest it into one single pane of glass. So developers can go, okay, I want to look at all the vulnerabilities for my specific application. And it's right there. They can go to it. They don't want to log into the security tool. They want to go to their technology process that they're familiar with, right? Whether it's directly into Git or into a single pane of glass where it's like all the security information is there. That's another piece. And I would say the other thing too is just communication. We've kind of touched on it a bit here. But I think even further, right? Like a lot of times we send these tickets over to development teams and we reach out and say, hey, like when can we expect this to be remediated? We have SLAs assigned. Maybe an engineer goes and comments on the ticket. They don't hear anything back. And they go, well, I didn't hear anything back. You need to be persistent, right? You really need to hold the security bar. Be the champion. Especially if you're the one working in your security team, right? You're the person that's there setting the guidance, setting that step. So, you know, you really have to follow up with these teams. And don't treat it as like I'm annoying somebody. You're caring about security. You're upholding what you have to do. It's in everyone's policies. And, right, you're there to protect your organization. So the other piece is communication and persistence. And from there, you can chop down that list of vulnerabilities. You've automated it into a single point. And then you've kind of built those relationships with your development team. And you're persistent with them. Really treat it as a learning and educating kind of space. So that's what I would say in terms of prioritization. Great. Thank you for that. Maybe a more general comment about prioritization. I keep reminding myself, even when I talk to my kids, that prioritizing is hard. When you have 10 items you need to look at, there's more than 3 million options to put them in order. Right? It's almost inhuman to really prioritize. Right? And that's just 10 items. Just imagine, you know, we all have hundreds, sometimes thousands. Right? So we need techniques that will help us making it more human achievable. So thank you for that, Joe. Do we have time for one more? Or should we open up for 30 minutes? Okay. So, guys, first of all, thanks for the panelists. But we would definitely like to open it up for questions from the crowd. So feel free to go line up or you can use this microphone if you're comfortable. Yeah. I can go first. Yeah, sure. My name is Sanket. So question for you, Joe, you brought up and perhaps for the rest of the panelists. So you talked about when the first question was asked, you need to know what's on your network. So do you have any suggestions for what's worked for you successfully in the past to figure out what's on your network, all the assets, software, hardware, virtual? No, that's a great question. I spoke in my opening remarks about a CMDB, right? And there's a lot of emphasis in having that. I think there's another immersion if you've played around with Backstage quite a bit. It's a pretty powerful open source from the Spotify team that made it. But if you can have someone that maintains that within your org, that's a good first step. The other thing is we all have tools that scan our networks. They scan our network blocks and it identifies assets. It pulls back a host name, right? Take that data and go back to the CMDB team or whoever kind of maintains that asset list and say, these are the assets I'm identifying on this network. What's going on? Same thing with containers, load balancing, all that, right? You're going to have distributed, especially with cloud services, right? You're going to have distributed applications. And so it's a good opportunity to talk with the team. And this goes back to basic threat modeling. How is your app being built? Are there multiple containers being split off? Do they have multiple EC2 instances that are balanced across? So the more that you can kind of divulge and go through it, the easier that you can kind of create that mapping. So it's a hard problem to solve and a lot of teams struggle with it. But if you can kind of correlate between the two, that's extremely helpful. And that's what I've seen through my career. So yeah, asset inventory, having accurate prioritized asset inventory is a way more harder problem than any of the security problem out there, right? We all agree. One of the interesting criteria that my teams have used is revenue. Which asset, if it gets breached or compromised, can have direct impact on revenue? Which assets handle that important sensitive data that can introduce lack of customer trust? So depending on the organization you work at and depending upon your organization's mission, business goal, your engineering department's goal, the criteria to prioritize your asset, it's going to be different. Things that work for one organization may not work. Things that may not work for another organization. So I would highly recommend when you work with your IT team or engineering team to build that asset inventory, get buy-in on that criteria. So... Sorry. There was a discussion from you, I believe, about pushing triaging towards developers to reduce workload, which I completely agree makes total sense. But whenever that's been brought up or I've heard it being discussed, there's been pushback from security teams. Not just application security teams, just security teams in general. Because there's mistrust that developers will not be able to do it accurately or they could just take work away from themselves. So how would you handle that cultural issue so that both sides can actually get what they need? Yeah, great question. So the question is, you know, the way security engineers are really good at triaging, they're fast at triaging, no matter how much we train our developers, will they become equally good? The simple answer is no. They have 100 things on their plate. And the most important thing is to build, develop those shiny new features that generates revenue, right? And here comes security team trying to teach them how to triage vulnerability. So first thing we have to understand is not all developers have the security DNA. Not all developers have taken a security class when they were doing their college. So select those very few security champions. Invest time in them. One training after another training. If you are new to triaging these vulnerabilities, invite them to your office hours and see, do a quality analysis of their work and give them that much needed, you know, quality feedback to raise their awareness slowly. If they have done anything wrong or not done a thorough job, do not penalize them or do not take away the work from them, but be their partner, work with them. And please keep in mind, teaching security to developers is not an easy job. We are trying to create organizational behavioral change and any change takes time. So be patient with them. Be patient with yourself. It takes at least three years for any program to get mature. So when we have that realistic expectation, we as a security engineer do not get frustrated. Create those much needed run books, training that shows real examples and then make your work through that. Last but, you know, the most important thing is when our developers are doing really nice job of whether vulnerability triaging or fixing a vulnerability, give a huge shout out, not only among security teams, but among developers. Don't be afraid to write a mail to their VP or director applauding their security effect. And because of such positive enforcement, you will see the change will happen quicker than the slower pace. So one more thing that's worked for us, it's a story that a few years back, as we expanded our security teams, there was one particular team that had to do with identity and things like that. We had a very heavy touch with them because there was always issues and stuff. There was a lot of conflict. And our leadership team did something very well. They went with their leadership team. They were empathetic. They knew that they had to build features. They had other business metrics. So together as a leadership team, they went up to the CTO. And we got funding for them. And post doing that, post getting a little bit of funding for them, our relationship got much better. It's not all roses, but it definitely got much better. So being empathetic to the earlier point there, it's very important. Understand that it's not going to be built in a day. It will take time. Start small. Work in their footstep. Be in their shoes. And just build on top of that. Okay. I heard you with respect to looking at the CVSS scores and adjusting. We took a little bit different tact on that because what we discovered was that mostly CVSS scores, it took a while to investigate. And usually developers can easily just update the package faster than they can go talk to security. So most developers now just go update stuff. So we built all this stuff into our CICD pipelines. And what we're discovering is everything's great. Most people are getting through. Some people need a little waivers. The problem is what we're trying to do is get everybody to recycle their applications on a reoccurring basis. We're not having a whole lot of luck there yet except trying to create some policies. But I was wondering if any of you guys have gone through that whole process of mandating that every application must go through your pipeline, say, every 30 days. Because our philosophy is the CICD pipeline is where our rules are at, where our policy is implemented at. And it gets constantly updated, all those rules. And if something's sitting out there for two years, even if it doesn't have a vulnerability, it may have a weakness in there in the static code analysis or whatever else that we've updated those rules on. So have any of you had any success with getting your developers to constantly maintain your software? Maybe I can start with this one. So while I did say a portion of it as being empathetic and understanding, sometimes having policies also work. So we also noticed a very similar problem of older stuff being on our network, vulnerabilities creeping up. So what our leadership team did is long ago we negotiated across the engineering teams an SLA saying that we will adhere to this kind of an SLA. We'll use it sparingly, but if we find something and essentially ticket you in your ticketing system, we need to maintain that SLA. And those who don't, unless there is a business justified reason that we mutually agree on, we kind of establish a naughty list and that goes up all the way to the CTO. And VPs don't like being on the naughty list. So that has worked for us in terms of getting something recycled and all. But it has also focused primarily on when we find something on the old stuff that's out there. I would say that in smaller organizations, establishing such culture where we will block applications if they don't follow the CICD security SLAs and whatnot works very well. Because the surface is small, right? The number of applications, the dev teams, they know you all. But in bigger organizations, this type of processes have not worked. They don't give a damn. They don't. And here I would give a call out to AppSec Engineer that please put more emphasis on fine-tuning your SAS, DAST, any tool that you have integrated so that it is less work for developers. And again, shift the focus from accurate identification to actionable remediation. When they know that, hey, it's going to take me 10 minutes to upgrade this package. It's not going to cause regression. They are more willing to just do it rather than ignoring it. Hello. So my question, and I work more so on the infrastructure vulnerability side, so I might just not see what you guys see. On the correlation, totally agree that it's really important to be able to do that. And I've seen really good ways or decent ways of automating the identification of attack paths between, like, infrastructure and vulnerability or network and vulnerability configurations. But I haven't seen so much on, like, if you have several mediums and lows, how to correlate those together. And I was wondering if you guys have had any specific success stories around that in automation. I guess I'll go on this one. In terms of lows and mediums, I think that's a really hard problem to really solve. Exploit chaining is not an easy thing to do. I mean, this is why I kind of go back to know your network, know your applications, because the adversaries are putting in the time to know your network, to know your stack, and they're going to win 9 out of 10 times, realistically. I think that's where threat modeling really comes to mind. And as you're going through the threat modeling process, and you should be doing this on major revisions to the application, doing it pretty frequently, right, don't just look at the new features that the team is building. Go back into the tools and say, you've got some mediums, you've got some lows, and bring that into your threat model. And so that way, it's not just like, hey, there's this lingering JIRA ticket that's been out here for 100 plus days, and it's a medium, but you're developing a new product feature. That threat model is an opportunity for you to kind of bring up those conversations about exploit chaining again that may be used against you and moving laterally throughout the infrastructure. So I think that's definitely one part. The other thing, too, and it's somewhat related and somewhat unrelated, but the understanding that you want to impose costs to your adversary, right? So think of your network as a maze. And the adversary is navigating that maze, trying to get to the other side where your data is. And your blue team has different detection methodologies that are in between, you know, placed inside the maze, and your goal is to catch them before they get to the other side. And so that's typically how I try to think of those applications is like, are we doing logging or how are we doing our detection? In terms of CICD, I think in the very, very, you know, future state, where we need to do is partner with our detection response teams, right? There's a lot of talk right now this week going on like code provenance, doing Salsa framework and code notary, code signing. Your detection response team should ultimately be then consuming, you know, that activity like, oh, this hash didn't match. Someone go investigate it, right? I think that's really the next generation of, you know, security monitoring, where it's I'm not looking so much for the vulnerability. I'm looking for the actual active exploitation at the code level, which is, as far as I'm aware, almost not done today at scale. So I'll pass it over. Yeah, I think Joe said it very accurately, right? Threat model. That's a very important term. And threat model cannot be done just by application security engineer or just by, you know, infrastructure security engineer. And 10, 15 years back, we used to have this clear distinction between, you know, application developer, front end developer, back end developer, and then infrastructure engineer. But with the rise of full stack development, that line has blurred. We no longer segregate that. So as Joe said, when we want to look at, you know, bunch of lows and highs, everything together, we need people from different background and different teams in that room. We have to have the developer architect, plus we need infrastructure security engineer, a threat detection engineer, maybe a privacy expert if there is a privacy flaw, supply chain security person. And when all of us sit together, that's when we can take a look at a bunch of vulnerabilities for that feature application service very objectively. And that's what going to give us the, you know, correlation as well as what controls are already there, and it will help us understand the residual risk. Just adding to what my co-panelists are saying, I also think while this doesn't scale so much, threat emulation and threat simulation is also something that you should think about. So we have a red team that is actively attacking our network. We also have a blue team that's looking at stuff. So we are a great fan of purple teaming. Sometimes we go, okay, let's just take this. This is a critical asset. Can we go all the way from an external, you know, from the external perimeter all the way into our databases? And we kind of try to purple team that, you know, get everybody in a room, have some overall goals, get anything other than pizza, right? So that usually, it does get good things. But again, at scale, this doesn't scale so well. This is right. At the beginning, it doesn't scale. But I want to tell you all of you, tomorrow my esteemed co-worker Neelit is having a talk on how to build threat modeling-based pipeline where she's exactly going to talk about, you know, how you can do these different assessments in parallel, what input goes from one security assessment to another. So do not forget to attend her talk tomorrow along with Larkins. Can you guys raise your hands? Yeah, tomorrow definitely check their talk. Okay, everyone, we'll need to wrap up now. We're in time. We'll take the last question maybe offline, if that's okay, because we're already finished the time. I'd like to say thank you with a great shout out to Joe, Kiran, and Tupti for this panel. Sharing their amazing combined knowledge in application security. And of course, to the AppSec village. Hasn't it been great? I mean, it's growing bigger. It's amazing to see that. So thank you so much for having us today."
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