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    "text": " The proposition is, it has to do with the acronym you heard several times today, NISQ. Noisy Intermediate Scale Quantum. You know we are in the NISQ era right now. And so the proposition for the village is, this village believes that the current state of NISQ is already enabling quantum advantage for those who know how to use these technologies. Arguing for, I'm sorry, yes, for the proposition is Rafal Janik. Other way around, sorry. Konstantinos, you're arguing for the proposition. Raf, you're arguing against the proposition. And I wanted to say this is so very important because we heard from both of them earlier today. You both know they know their stuff. And it is going to help us come to our conclusion. So first for the proposition, Konstantinos. If you like we can switch halfway. Yeah sure. So do we need fault-tolerant quantum computing to do anything useful? I don't think so. If there's one thing I've learned in this decade of quantum that I've been messing around, we get surprised all the time. So just real high level, first of all, we constantly are getting surprised. We find little performance edges here and there, little clever ways to do things like hybrid, where some of it's classical, some of it's quantum, and you put the two together and you see some kind of like performance edge. So I'm not gonna worry too much about like provable, benchmarkable advantage so much as like can you identify some step in a process that could be improved with quantum over classical. So I think we can. And I've already seen signs of it. Recently IBM did their error mitigation. So they were able to show that basically we were able to cancel out some noise by doing lots of runs and statistically removing it kind of accounted for it, just to keep it real simple. So it's error mitigation, but there's also error suppression, where you can understand how a particular machine works, and then, for example, you can go through and flip something to reverse an error before it starts to form. So these kinds of things could already show some benefit, and they did in the case of the IBM papers. So when you look at all those kinds of things, you're going to start to see some provable, I guess what I like to call a customer advantage. It's like when you look at everything and you apply it, you kind of get some kind of edge. I wrote a paper on doing portfolio optimization with cardinality constraints, and we were able to show some performance gain using D-Wave's hybrid solver and some approaches. So yeah, it's not a benchmarkable advantage. I'm not claiming that from rooftops, but we were able to show some gain to that customer. So I do think when you consider all those things, we're getting close. And one last thing I'll add, Quantinium recently, they did that whole thing with three, we'll call them logical in quotes, qubits that were able to simulate the energy states of an H2 molecule. So we're getting there. We're like, we're approaching. We're not going to go. So I think these little tweaks along the way will enable that. Awesome. Your rebuttal. Or your argument against it. I feel a little bit underprepared without memes on the screen behind me right now. So quantum computing has a lot of promise, and it's actually a really hard path to get there. Not only do I not believe that we're at the position right now where we're delivering on that promise, I'd also like to add that it's actually a distraction from the hard work that we have to do to focus on the NIS era. And there are a couple definitions to cover. The first one is quantum advantage. This is not being able to do something better than a classical computer. This is being able to do a meaningful task better than a classical computer. If anyone's curious, today while sitting over there preparing for this debate, I did a quick search and I found 41 instances of people claiming quantum advantage over the last 20 years. All of those have not come true. They really fall down for two reasons. One, they're flat-out fraudulent, which is probably the bulk of them. The other one comes down to the fact that classical algorithms are incredibly good and many quantum researchers are not classical algorithm researchers. So what you actually see, and historically we've seen this with multiple companies, is a claim of quantum advantage and two days later a proof that there's a classical method that is far better. Also, there's a lot of value in quantum computing today. I don't want to discount that. There's the value of what we're doing scientifically and all the research it's been able to unlock. There's the value around quantum adjacent technologies such as, you know, we've heard quantum inspired algorithms. All these are delivering value, but the one thing we have not seen is quantum advantage. And you would not believe how many companies, how many academic institutions, how many researchers only care about running a NISQ right now because they're able to run on hardware. Instead of thinking, how do we prepare for the hardware that's going to be here five years, ten years from now, moving past the NISQ era, not necessarily into fault-tolerant, but maybe to not noisy intermediate-scale quantum computers. Quantum computers that have gate fidelities and qubit fidelities that actually allow us to go deep enough in algorithms to show meaningful value. Great, we have ten minutes for rebuttals. So, your first rebuttal. Yeah, well, I mean, I don't disagree with anything you said, technically, so I don't know if I'm going to set this off on you. It's all good. I just think that we're not, you know, I wasn't bringing up any examples, obviously, of the advantage claims that were useless. I hate that. It's like, look, we did this thing that you're never going to do, but we did it better. It's like, okay, cool. It's just like, I don't like when someone writes code and then hacks it. That's kind of useless, too. You don't want to, like, write your implementation and hack it. So, I agree in that space. And that's why I got big time into quantum-inspired. You know, that's why attention networks, we're hoping to see some gains there. But I keep seeing that hybrid thing, you know, and I can't let it go. I just got this feeling that we're going to be able to take advantage of some of those hybrid learnings and apply them in the work stream. Because, like, very few problems are solved in one step, one thing. You know, like supply chain issues. There's, like, a million places where you could try and improve something. So, I just have a feeling in my gut that we're going to see the ability to tweak just a few of those the right way. And they're like, we're sort of, like, knocking on the door of that. And then there's also the machine technologies that are evolving so fast. So, I just go into it for a second. Like, neutral atom, for example. We're talking high qubit counts, really long lifetimes. Like, we're expecting the next generation of neutral atom machines that are coming out within a year or so to have lifetimes of, like, I don't know, tangling times of 10 seconds or so. 10 seconds is like, you know, the age of the universe, practically, when you're thinking about a quantum computer, you know. So, if we have a tangle time of 10 seconds, it makes things a little more interesting. Right now, they're running what's called analog mode, which is, like, not quite. You can't run gates on them, so it's a little closer to annealing than it is to gates. But they will be running gates. And they're gonna have modes where you're gonna be able to sacrifice a few extra qubits to get, like, better fidelity when needed. So, whenever you think about those, like, out-of-the-box approaches, I just have a feeling we're gonna see, like, at least a few of the problems show, like, some kind of advantage relatively soon, without true, you know, fault tolerance. Great. Rob, your rebuttal. I mean, this might get into a weird debate because we're gonna start agreeing with each other more than disagreeing. But I'd like to point out a few things that were brought up a moment ago. Longer lifetimes, better fidelities. This actually pushes us out of the misc era. Everything that we're talking about doing, that we want to do, requires much longer lifetimes, much better fidelities. We know a handful of algorithms, and you can count them on one hand today, that can prove quantum advantage. That's a little bit worrying. Instead of worrying about which optimization problem can we try to jam onto a processor today, we should be worrying about how do we actually expand the number of algos that can provide quantum advantage in the future. Maybe even a little more scary than that is the fact that only one of those provides exponential advantage. And there's been papers out of Google AI in the past that demonstrate, even with fault tolerance, quadratic advantage might not be enough. The overheads to build a quantum computer, the way that you actually perform the error correction, might require much higher speedups than quadratic in order to actually overcome the overhead. So I would encourage everyone again to not worry about jamming your algo today, your H2 molecule, which you can simulate on your laptop and calculate the ground state on, without needing a quantum computer. But actually start focusing on understanding how do you improve the readout method for a quantum computer beyond the quantum phase estimation, which pretty much every quantum chemistry algo is based on today. We have a few more minutes for rebuttals, but those of you just coming in, I want you to know what we're debating is the state of current quantum computers and if the state of current quantum computers is good enough to give advantage, real strategic advantage, to those who really know the technology. We're arguing for and against and then we're in the middle of our rebuttals. In a few minutes we'll get to audience questions and answers and inputs. So we have two more minutes for final comments before we get to questions and answers. In keeping with the theme, I agree with everything you said. Guys! I'm sorry. We agree but disagree. Yeah. But like you said about not worrying about doing a thing that you can simulate on your laptop or whatever, the whole point is like the way it was done, right? You know, just like the first time we ran Schumer's algorithm, it wasn't that we couldn't do 15 is 5 times 3. I mean, you could do that. It's just the way it was run. So like the fact that we're approaching fault tolerance through these logical qubits, that we're doing things like error suppression, mitigation, like these are like the building blocks. So I just view them as incredibly important for that purpose. Even if we could still run the math on a classical machine, I feel like without those building blocks being proven, we're not going to get far enough fast enough. I actually like the Shor example quite a bit. So I think I had the meme up earlier, which was factoring 15 into its primes versus the promise of Shor's. When Shor's first came out, the implementation actually would never run on a physical quantum computer with any imperfections. You needed the idealistic machine. And what I would say has been much more important to the development of actually running Shor's has been the work done from the top down, bringing the overheads required for Shor's down, instead of worrying about can you demonstrate factoring 15 on a quantum computer. It's again a great flex, I would say, to do that and to show that, but it's not doing actual meaningful work. One final point that can probably prove that there is no real quantum advantage, and it's the fact that the people like myself and the folks from Oxford Quantum Circuits are not locked away in a basement right now, working for whichever government that they happen to be under the control of. Because that really will happen as we get closer and closer to true quantum advantage, because the regulations just haven't caught up to where the technology is headed. Yeah, I was just thinking they're going to steal the machines. I didn't want them to steal you guys too. I think we go with them. There's no separating the two. And to be fair, it won't be me, but those two guys are definitely in trouble. I know there's no true quantum advantage right now, because everyone would know about it. It would be big news. But I do believe that we're going to have actual usable use cases. I just think we're going to have them before we're proclaiming true fault-tolerant intense gate caps. And then watch out for those oddball developments. Every once in a while, one of them is going to come true. Maybe not that Chinese paper that you need 327 qubits to crack RSA. Maybe not that one. But something like that might happen too. That's the one thing I just want to remind you of. These surprises are just things we never would have thought of. I keep seeing things. I'm like, I didn't see that coming. Cool. So that's one of the greatest things about working quantum. Thanks. And now it's time to transition to your inputs before we vote. You get an opportunity to ask questions, make comments, push back, make your own arguments, and then we will vote on the proposition. I saw yours first. Please, sir. So what do you think is holding up the development of those quantum algorithms? Is it that we don't have the right people trying to build the quantum algorithms right now? Or that we're lacking hardware to play around with to validate those, the simulation capabilities? What are your thoughts? All right, just to repeat the question, it is, what do you think is holding up the development of these quantum capabilities? Both of you, please. I think broadly, I would say tooling. And I know it might be a very simple answer, but it actually encompasses quite a bit. You know, somebody mentioned it's like being in the 1940s right now, quantum technology. I'd say that that's generous where we are. We're hoping we're going to move more quickly compared to digital computing. But it really is like, you know, before the development of digital computing, trying to come up with potential algorithms. We don't have the software tooling to allow researchers to do what they need to do. We don't have the hardware tooling for them to be able to test it out. And unfortunately, we also don't have the person power in order to actually go after this very aggressively. You know, I'll plug a little bit of the work that the team at the company I work at did, Xanadu. Looking at the simulation of batteries, again, not on today's computers, but in ones that might exist in a decade or in five years from now, they reduced the gate count by a factor of 40,000. Right? And this is, I would say, low-hanging fruit. They might disagree. That was a lot of hard work. But these are the type of gains that we can make. Unfortunately, the total gate count that you need is still a ways away. But we should be pushing that from the top down as we push the hardware from the bottom up until they finally converge in some place where we can deliver something meaningful. Yeah, some of this is theoretical, right? If you think about it, the greatest algorithms of all time were developed without quantum gear, right? They just work. You know, you go right back to the very first one. Well, they're still the greatest of all time. So they were in 1994, 1996, we had nothing. You know, they were just a dream. So I do think at some level it's going to be ingenuity, you know? And it might not even be human ingenuity, right? Like, for all we know, we'll get sparks of AGI in a quantum vein. You know, you'll be like, hey, insert name of LLME love, write me a new quantum algorithm, and it might be possible. So there's that too. It might not be us. Or AGI might solve some of the engineering hurdles and things. Not to turn this into a whole LLM discussion, but just because of what I've seen with, like, working with tensor networks and compressing them, I think there's a lot more potential there that could be tapped. So I would like to see that. So I think what we're missing is also that we're just limiting it to human beings. And it might be, you know, one of our friends. Before they kill us, they might help us. Great. There's a comment here. Thanks. So in your definition of quantum advantage, you mentioned meaningful tasks. And you also mentioned, I heard, go around real strategic advantage and something meaningful. I want to know what were the benchmarks and the measurements that determine what a meaningful task is, rather than the terms kind of sounding like they are shrouded by subjects. Good question about what is a meaningful task in your mind. I can tell you what not a meaningful task is. And it's an achievement I'm very proud of that, again, Google demonstrated first, but we were able to achieve at Xanadu, which is something called quantum supremacy or quantum computational advantage. And this is cherry picking a mathematical task that a quantum computer is really good at, but classical computers are very bad at, but that you can demonstrate mathematically from first principles that you've done with a quantum computer and it would take you millions of years, hundreds of years, whatever it is, but much longer with all the computational power in the world to deliver. And this has been demonstrated now five times, I believe, maybe four times. Right, on an optical and a photonic and a supercomputer. Great engineering milestones, whether they're necessary to get to where you're going, it depends on your your roadmap. Now, quantum advantage, it's not a very well defined term. In fact, none of these terms are, they kind of exist out in the zeitgeist. But what I would say is, it comes down to money. If it's something that somebody is willing to pay you for, and somebody doesn't show up the next day and say, I could do this faster classically. So let me rephrase that. If somebody who is well informed is willing to pay you for it, then it's real quantum advantage. And very honestly, it's not something we've seen yet from any quantum company, unless they've achieved it and have been incredibly secret. Yeah. So with quantum advantage, right, you're just, it has to be useful. It's moving the goal post argument. So some scientists don't like it because they're like, no, no, no, if quantum could do better than classical, that's advantage. But again, it's a useless problem. Are you just inventing some, you know, a hamster running in a wheel for no purpose, and quantum can run faster? It's kind of useless, right? So that's sort of what we've had so far, unfortunately. To get some of the advantage like I'm talking about, we've had to do other things too. Like I talked about tensor networks before, like, you know, we've used those to compress neural networks and then layer them in and et cetera. Like you get some other little bits of advantage along the way, and then you get your performance increases. But yeah, I can't claim we have quantum advantage. One thing to be careful of when you see these claims, often people will say this can't be simulated as a claim to prove the power of the quantum computer. But we can't simulate on a quantum level this table, right? But we don't have the control over it to actually make it do anything useful. So a lot of claims kind of fall short when it comes to the hardware. I think somebody mentioned a large-scale entangling coming out of China, a number of qubits that if they are fully entangled... 51. Yeah, it's very impressive. But now the next question that needs to be asked, can they exert full control over those 51 qubits to actually do something useful? Because if they can't, then I mean it comes down to the thing that I can point to. Look at my five million entangled qubits. Don't worry for how long they're entangled or whether I can control them or not, but they're right here. I'm pretty sure if you had five million entangled qubits, it doesn't matter a lot. I'm pretty sure it's right here. There's five million qubits right here. Questions? Yes, here, please. Basic question here, in part because you've already covered this, I came a little late, but what are the consequences of breaching quantum tech? I mean, you know, everybody talks about the advantages we have once we reach that stage, right, of using it, maybe commercializing it or something, but what are the consequences, the cold, like the cold hard truth of what it means? Also, to the gentleman on the right, did anybody tell you you look like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory? It's way cooler. Yeah, I've been accused of talking like people don't understand what I'm saying. All right, so the question, to repeat the question, it's about what happens when we reach this state of a significant quantum advantage. Yeah, so a couple things will happen, right? If we have advantage and a large enough scale machine, we're at DEF CON, so there's the obvious thing that's going to happen, major cryptographic problems, and that all begins next year, by the way. NIST is going to publish this new standard, so starting next year, that's when the quantum apocalypse begins, because you have to start fixing it. Once the government says this is deprecated, you've got to fix it, whether you believe in quantum computers or not. So the apocalypse is here anyway. So that's going to happen one way or another, if you're the person fixing this stuff. What doesn't happen is we're going to start solving problems that we never thought we'd solve before. I think they're going to use less energy. Even though you imagine these refrigerators and all that, still, a quantum computer does a whole lot in a very quick period of time, with very little actual energy being expended. So that's the major thing that's going to happen. We're going to have these huge problems being solved that we were never able to tackle before. Things may be involved in the climate. Modeling chemicals that can take carbon out of the air. We don't know. It's like the use cases are almost unlimited when you get to that level. So it's a really exciting thing to look forward to. So is it a series? No, because I think we're going to start preparing for the cryptography. And Chrome is about to add, in version 116, they're about to add their hybrid post-quantum to that. They've already had it in AWS. So these things are happening already. I think if we get ahead of it, it'll be like with Y2K. Nothing happened. It was like, oh crap, it's okay. So it might be fine. Are you sure? That nothing happened? There are a couple applications that people think will come first. It was mentioned, quantum chemistry. So basically, one thing that a quantum computer is most likely good at, and again, we don't really know this until we're able to actually run it and prove it, but it's at simulating quantum systems. So this means things like, you know, building better batteries, because now you can simulate all the different electrolytes you would want to without actually have to go through and manufacture a battery. It was mentioned the climate impact. So this is usually around catalysts, usually based around transition metals that are very hard to simulate on a quantum level right now using traditional methods. But would require a modest, still a ridiculous compared to NISQ, but a modest for a quantum quantum computer number of cubits in order to actually go backward. But I'd say we don't know. It's like sitting in, you know, 1920 and saying, hey, what are we going to do with digital computers? I don't think we have any idea what, like, the equivalent of the quantum tender application is going to be. It's going to take, you know, a good amount of time to get there. We'll have a lot of thoughts, though. We have time for a few more questions before we vote on the proposition that they have been debating on this issue of quantum compute today. Is there any advantage by really knowing them? So here, please, first, and then we'll come back to you. What is your perspective on the investment of the relationship of quantum and quantum technology as a whole, including computing and energy as resources dwindle for building batteries and building computers in general? Do you see investment? How do you see that investment happening? Discuss, please, the investment and the opportunity between energy and quantum. Sure. So from the energy perspective, quantum computers don't operate faster than classical computers. They don't process everything in parallel. The best example is leveraging quantum mechanics. You can essentially encode your problem, your very hard problem, on a very complicated system and control it to get the answer. So you're sidestepping the difficult calculation. By difficult, I mean completely intractable by classical computation. And this is what all algorithms, quantum algorithms, are based on. So the hope is huge. The hope for, you know, resource scarcity is really massive. And it comes down to anything from optimization work, to quantum chemistry, to developing small molecule pharmaceuticals, and then all the way, all the way beyond that. Maybe if I understood your second part of the question was, like, what is the impact of manufacturing these things? Like, these things actually need to be made out of different materials. It really depends on the modality. Some things are really straightforward. They're silicon-based. There's, you know, no real super rare components to it. Other ones are based on much more scarce things. But I would say the impact that they will have is going to be so much greater than the resources that they're going to consume, compared to what classical computers are able to do today. And some of them could be made with, like, literally nothing. I mean, ions are, they're free. They're everywhere. You don't have to make them. They're already there. I don't know about ytterbium. Ytterbium, you know, whatever. There's some in here. I promise you there's some in here. I'm going to find it when we're done. I'll show you. It'll glow in my hands. So, yeah, so some of it depends, like you said, on the modality, what they're made of. And we're already using quantum computers in, like, simple optimization things for, like, how to wrap power, things like that. So these are, like, hybrid problems we're trying to solve, using some annealing and some other steps, and tensorizing, whatever. So we're very concerned with, like, using, applying this to power in general. Because, yeah, we've got a huge problem. One more question, then we vote. In terms of academia, let me just give you a 20 seconds context. ACM, IEEE, AAAI, Computer Science Curricula is the project that they're working for the next 10 years. Curricula. They're identified 18 knowledge areas, algorithms, operating systems, HCI, all the way to SEP, which is Society Ethics and Professionalism. You know, we're in DEF CON. We care about cyber. But at the same time, you're talking about green technologies and other aspects that quantum will have a big impact for the next 10 years. I was a little bit disappointed that the curriculum guidelines, they only have, like, less than two percent of learning outcomes and competencies in quantum. However, they're there. But, for example, cybersecurity is infused in the 18 knowledge areas. If I will ask you, and this is a question, if I ask you, what would be the top three computing areas that you should focus curriculum, like, heavily curriculum, what would those be in your experience? All right, what are the top three curriculum that you would focus on for computer science education overall? I would say, it's pretty straightforward for me, it would be building better quantum systems, writing better quantum algorithms, and absolutely machine learning, too, because it intersects so much. So, those are the three. I'm going to say the same way, but different. Linear algebra, linear algebra, and linear algebra. Yeah, of course. That's like saying you need the alphabet before you write something. I tried so hard to, like, keep linear algebra to a minimum. Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to vote. So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to say the proposition again, and then we will ask you to raise your hands if you support the proposition based on the arguments that you just heard. We are in the era of noisy intermediate scale intermediate scale quantum NISQ. This is the NISQ era. NISQ and the future of quantum advantage. This village believes the current state of NISQ is already enabling quantum advantage for those who know how to use these technologies. If you support that, raise your hand. I don't think it's already. That's the version I have. There's a lot of undecided. Yeah, if I could rephrase it, I would say that we don't need fault-tolerant for advantage, but I'm not saying we have an advantage now, for sure. Mark, how did that vote go, do you think? Oh, definitely against. Thank you for the three people who were reliably sort of going, yeah, sure. Well, we have captured this. I know there were a lot of other questions, so please, again, join our Discord server and keep asking your questions there. And with that, I want to say thanks to our debaters. Thanks, Mark. Thank you."
}