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    "text": " All right, so yes, I am a stunt double here stepping in for Jake Braun from the White House who was unable to make it. So I'm coming into this pretty hot and I have reviewed the concept of the panel and so we're going to go through this. But we're going to talk about a range of issues looking ahead to the 2024 election and kind of drawing on some of the lessons of the past from 2018, 2020, 2022, and now 24. What are A, you know, the threats that we're worried about, the threats that we need to be preparing for, and then across the cyber and physical threat vectors, what are A, the things we need to be doing and B, what are the available tools, what are the available partnerships with the federal government and with the private sector that are available. So with that, let me go ahead and start on, Ashley, maybe we'll start with you on the threat side. So you're Director of Threat Intelligence for Research Labs. What are you seeing out there, both kind of historically and, you know, as we look forward from an almost strategic intelligence perspective, what are we seeing, what should we be expecting as threats for the 24 election? Yeah, I don't think it's any secret that the volume, oh god, that sounds horrible, that the volume, okay, perfect, I'm gonna stand. It's very important now. I don't think it's any secret that the volume of things always tends to pick up as we approach election season. The research teams at Reversing Labs sort of have two primary focuses. One of those is on more traditional malware. The other of those is on open source threats, so third-party libraries, things that would be used by developers. And so what we're seeing, really interestingly, is a sort of blending of those two. And so, for example, something we saw recently was an instance where a phishing kit had actually been shoved in this third-party library. And so if you received this as a malicious attachment, standard phishing campaign, you know, it's not anything particularly exciting, but if you were a developer who happened to use this library, then now your application would be serving this phishing kit as well. So we're starting to see more and more instances where things like malware have been just shoved into open source libraries. Very strategically, we're seeing the link of these sort of supply chain, software supply chain rather, threats with the more traditional malware. I think that adds a level of complexity that makes it a little more difficult from a defender's perspective. So always, of course, working to try and advance those detection solutions. Yeah, and I think... so I'll stand up. Putting this into the context that you've laid down, I go back to the post-2016 election intelligence community assessment that laid out the three lines of effort that the Russians took. First was the technical attacks on election systems throughout the country, the voter registration databases. But of course, by natural extension, we would include voting equipment and systems within that. And then you've got the disinformation piece, and then the hack and leak campaigns against campaigns and political parties. So I think we'll put that part, those two other aside between disinformation and the hack and leak on campaigns and focus, you know, pretty exclusively here on those threats as actually laid out that we may find in the systems that are used with elections. All right, so jumping on that, I will say though, it's not just going to be cyber, there will be physical considerations here as well. All right, so Michael, you know, with some of the threat landscape that actually laid out, and what you do from a day-to-day perspective or basis in Aracopa County, what are you seeing? What have you seen historically? Can you tell us a little bit of kind of the volume of attacks that you see on a daily basis? And what are the key tools that you have? And some of the things you think you need, you and your peers, you can anonymously throw your peers under the bus. But what are the things that you see that your peers are really struggling with or need to improve as we go out to 24? All right, I guess I'll stand as well. Can you guys hear me okay? Everyone's okay in the back? Awesome. So my peers, I would call my customers, I'm gonna shift this way a little bit, so hopefully less feedback. I'm actually over at the Arizona Secretary of State's office, that's the biggest county in Arizona. Now I'm at the Arizona Secretary of State's office. I'm the CISO there. I consider myself to be the virtual CISO, and I've offered my services to all of the counties. So to me, you know, we lean incredibly heavily on the Arizona Department of Homeland Security, sorry for all these entities, long names. They have the Cyber Readiness Program. So this uses federal citizen DHS grant funds, and as well as ongoing state funds that have been dedicated to provide best-in-class solutions to all government entities in Arizona. So in the Arizona elections community, we have regular statewide election security meetings, both for leadership teams as well as our IT teams, and we've been heavily promoting like, folks, if you already have a solution, cool. If you love it, stick with it. But if you don't have the solution, here it is for free. It's already paid for in this hub-and-spoke model, where we can use collective purchasing to get these best-in-class controls. They're paid for. We have contract services to help you implement them. So that's something we've been pushing incredibly heavily to all of the counties for the past few months, especially because I know folks may not necessarily enjoy hearing this. We had a little bit of conversation before the panel. The idea that there's a vulnerability, oh, just patch it, like that's not necessarily feasible when it comes to operational elections, right? If you guys have worked in IT at all, you know that sometimes patching something breaks things. With elections, high availability. You can't be down on election day. That's crazy, right? So you have a defense in depth to protect things. So, long rambling? Bound. No, no, no. Can I add just one thing to that? Yeah, go ahead. I do think, though, that it is important if you know that a vulnerability exists, that's great. A lot of folks don't even know that something is out there. And so if you know that you have a vulnerability and maybe you can't patch it, at least you know and you can put resources and eyes on it and watch for that to potentially be exploited. So that's pretty solid. It's better than zero. If I could tag onto that briefly? So, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And obviously we're members of MS-ISAC, E-I-I-SAC. If that's new to you, it's the Multi-State Information and Analysis Center, as well as the Elections Infrastructure ISAC. So these communities let you know, hey, there's this critical vulnerability, right? So like Log4J, you recall Log4J, or there was a huge Microsoft Exchange issue recently, right? Those kind of things, it's, I know that we're in a change freeze right now. We're close to an election, but there's no, you have to patch this stuff. You cannot wait. So there is that. So, John, maybe let's pivot away from cyber for now and then talk about some of the physical and resilience issues, because maybe you can tell people, you know, what life's like in Vermont, administering elections up there and, you know, the set of threats and challenges that you have to deal with on a daily basis. And then what I want to do is come back around after and talk about what help you get from federal government, what's helpful, and then what more do we need? But then also what are some of the other mechanisms we use? Talk a little bit more about the ICE acts, for instance. So start with our physical. Yeah, of course, the election administration right there on the ground is where the conspiracy theories really hit the strongest. We're going to be front lines in a very sort of physical way with that level of attack and that level of suppression. Because I think when people start hearing more about threats to polling places and more about threats to election workers, it makes them a little less confident in coming out to the polls. In Vermont, you know, New England works a little differently than I think most of the rest of the country. We have very small jurisdictions. Jurisdictions that can be as... it's at the town level, not the county level, so jurisdictions can be as small. In New Hampshire, say, of a town of 10, 12 people, will be just as much an election jurisdiction as Boston. So that creates a whole lot of different dynamics. It makes things much more personal. And especially since it's a blue area, you haven't heard of the kind of really awful stuff that's been taking place in the southeast and the southwest with really direct threats. Even I've heard of literal attacks on election administrators, election workers, poll workers down there. But we are getting some early indications that that's changing. In my own jurisdiction, they hit the sweet spot when I could get rid of my ballots from the presidential, and they were still part of public record. We had a recount done by a lot of folks who felt that the election had been phony, and they showed up en masse into my town. And basically that was a shot across the bow. The last election, also the midterm election, we had a lot more folks showing up in smaller Vermont towns, despite the fact that these are small, tight communities. You're starting to see those same divisions, people coming up just to create havoc, just to create problems. So I think if you're starting to see that wave, even coming up into true blue, you know, New England, I think this is going to be a doozy next time around. And I don't know what to expect. I definitely worry quite a bit for my companions in election administration in the South, but I think we're going to see the conspiracy theorists out on a scale we are probably not prepared for. Let me just kind of jump onto that. So it seems to me you're expecting additional activity. How are you pulling together intelligence, so to speak? And what are your preparations for next year, assuming that you will see more kind of on the ground disruptions? You know, Arizona obviously saw a lot of that from the poll watchers and whatnot last year in 22. You know, are you trying to pull together lessons learned from 22 that you may have seen in Maricopa and then draw them for Vermont? It's difficult to draw because of the scale. So we're in a situation where we need to work really, and I am working much more directly with local law enforcement. We're modifying our continuity of operations plans, given the new threat landscape and what it looks like, which is very different than what I've had for the last 10 years doing this. It's sort of having to reimagine that from the bottom up, but really bringing in that local law enforcement as a full partner in the election process, which is something I haven't really done before. Given the sort of micro-jurisdictional layout landscape, we only get so much assistance, or only so much assistance from the Secretary of State is really practical. So we really are largely on our own in a way that I don't think you see in the rest of the country. And again, I'm not just talking about Vermont. Vermont is kind of an extreme case, but this municipal-based jurisdiction level is common throughout New England. And we're often so small, we're not in a position to take advantage of resources like the EIISAC, which are really scaled. We're sort of the forgotten stepchildren here of the election process, because we're such a small scale. We can only get so much help when the help is really targeted towards more moderate or higher scale levels. So we're largely on our own. So speaking about physical security, we have been going at the Secretary of State's office, along with some of our security partners, have been going out to each of our counties and touring their facility and talking to them about solutions at their space, looking to see, is there any kind of physical security improvements at your elections facility? Is there anything you can do to increase the hardening of your elections equipment? Can you implement port blockers? Those are basically free, right? Little pieces of plastic, you shove in a port, that way if somebody is somehow in your secure area, they can't casually plug something in. Cool. Next step, security enclosures. For like $100, you can buy a secure case to put any kind of PC in there that's in your critical infrastructure space. We're trying to fight a Stuxnet situation, right? I'm sure you're all familiar with Stuxnet, right? So the tabulation room, that's our nuclear reactor, we want to protect it. We've also been recommending, at Maricopa and at the Secretary of State's office, we've engaged in active shooter training, defense against active shooter training. I'd rather over-prepare and never need it, I hope we never need it, but there could be a shooter event, and I want to make sure that our staff are as prepared as possible and have a plan, run, hide, fight. And I'll tell you, we did the ALICE version put on by our Capitol Police, and that really underlined for me, like, the first rule is run. You're not an action hero. Every single time in the practical, when they had like a nerf gun, I got shot every single time. Every single time, I didn't immediately run away. So sincerely, if there's ever a shooter event, there's my advice to you, run away as fast as you can. Other than that, we work incredibly close with our sheriffs. And so we've made sure that when we go out to the counties, make sure you know your security folk, bring them to the table. Let's talk to them. Bring your facility folk. Are there any doors that need additional hardening? Do you need any cameras to make sure you have the visibility on things? What? Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry. We've also, again, this is a bit macabre, but we've put together some defense against active shooter kits as well. If you notice the doors that have the metal hinges on them, if you cover that with some piece of old fire hose, it's basically a physical barrier. Those doors can't physically open anymore. That's one of the recommendations we got from the federal DHS when they come out and do physical security assessments of our facilities. We've also included a glass breaking kit. If you need, if you're on a ground floor, you have a window, you can break the glass, get out. Tourniquets, chest seals, if somebody gets shot, it's depressing stuff. At Maricopa, we also had a third of our staff CPR trained, right? If someone has a heart attack, they're ready to go. We're also recommending to take stop the bleed training, which if somebody gets shot, you know, it teaches you how to apply a tourniquet. If you get shot in the chest, it's important that you don't just try to pack it. You need the chest seal to protect yourself appropriately. John, is there anything you would want to add on the active shooter piece? Or Michael, pretty much cover it in grave, depressing detail. Sorry, sir. Well, I would add a little to the first part, just to be more depressing. The first part, where you talked about literal physical security. I'm gonna harp on the very small jurisdictions thing again. This is my mantra. I've been talking about it at DEF CONs for years. Well, just to be clear, you know, while New England may not resemble Arizona, Wisconsin and Michigan also have a significant number of individual jurisdictions in those states. Right, right. And also town-based in cases. Yeah, absolutely. And even something as simple as cameras are something I don't have. And the money does not come from the top to allow for that. Elections are traditionally done some, you know, this is a traditional town meeting part of the country, right? Where old style democracy folks, the history of these towns is to all come together and yell and shout and fight it out and make your decisions. It's cute sometimes. But that's the tradition we're dealing with. So that the resources, we don't get a lot of resources from the top down. So resources for defense in depth, for everything from vaults to cameras to security personnel to any other features like that do tend to come from the resources of the individual town. So it's another place where we are behind and there needs to be something done, basically. And some of us are working on it. See what comes of it. Let's talk about those resources a little bit. Post-2016 in the U.S. government, a number of things changed in and around the 2016 election immediately following. So for one, CISA, which was then named differently at DHS, known as NPPD, was tapped by the Secretary of Homeland Security to lead the election security efforts, at a minimum for DHS, but more broadly at that point for the federal government. Established a number of different organizations, sector coordinating councils, government coordinating councils. We have members of those throughout the room. One of the key things that we were tasked with doing was making sure that there were security resources, security and vulnerability assessments, cyber hygiene scanning capabilities, all these basic cybersecurity tools were made available to as many election officials and jurisdictions as possible. Some used them. Some did not use them. Some could not use them. They didn't actually have the technology in place. And that has grown over time. We also set up things like the ISAC, the Election Infrastructure ISAC that's hosted at the multi-state ISAC in upstate New York. And then we were just talking about tabletop the vote. We would hold annual tabletop exercises to walk through various scenarios that may come up and how we would prepare for them. So in that time period in the run-up to the 2018 election, starting in February after we established the Election Infrastructure ISAC, that's February 2018, by that summer, or right before the election at least, we had all 50 states participating in that ISAC, which was a huge accomplishment. You know, what I felt at the time as director was my KPI was getting all 50 states signed up in advance of the 2018 election. We did that in one way or the other. I made 50, by the way. Me personally. I think that's right. I think that's right. Oh yeah, you guys flew me right out there. I was the only one in Vermont. I think I gave one of your senators a lot of grief about that. I wasn't afraid to pull out political soft power. So maybe Michael, we'll start with you. So of those tools that are available from the government, the security vulnerability assessment, cyber hygiene scanning, some of these on-site physical assessments you're talking about, what do you, you know, what did you get the most value out of? What do you think? And then, you know, maybe like what do we need more of and maybe not as much as something else? Oh sure, yeah. I would say that I'm the biggest fan of the physical security assessment, having our DHS rep come out, right? This is someone who is an expert on physical security. He can walk around the building, or she, the previous one was a quite a nice lady. And what's amazing is you already kind of know in election operations what your pain points are, I need more cameras, I need a fence, stuff like that. Now you have a report from the Department of Homeland Security that says, hey, you really, it'd be nice if you have these things to increase your security. So that is phenomenal when it comes to applying for grants or talking to your board of supervisors or however your county works. Like it's not just you anymore being the squeak wheel saying like, hey, I really need cameras. Well, it's the federal DHS telling me I need cameras. To me, I love that. If you had infinite money and influence, what I want, what I really, really want is something like a tiger team. I don't know exactly how it would work of CISA and probably your state DHS to go out to all of these local entities. Look, the people that are running your local government entities are doing the best they can. They're great at operations. They keep the light on. Technical debt accrues over the course of decades. You develop stuff to make sure that your business functions, having a team come in to help that specializes in remediation and doing physical security assessments, cybersecurity assessments, but not just doing the assessments, but literally helping you work. CIS admins, net admins that will help you go through your controls and optimize them. Make sure that everything's patched correctly, all your configurations correct, help you implement network segmentation, which is like a big old pain. But having some entities to help with that, that would be amazing. Mr. Secretary, I think Michael just signed you guys up for a pilot project with DHS. There you go. That's my secretary. I think that makes a lot of sense. And your question on scale is a good one because when you think about the personnel CISA has in the field, this was always the question I was getting. How many people do you have designated or dedicated to election security across CISA? And the core team was about a dozen and a half. But at any given time, there were hundreds of people across CISA doing some kind of election security work. So we'd get some logs in from a state. So we'd be crashing a team on log analysis. Our protective security advisors doing a walkthrough of a precinct or our cyber advisors out there. Director Easterly just announced, I believe a couple weeks ago, that there will be dedicated election security advisors out in the field. And so we're starting to see that shift, that this is a core priority for the department, for our state and local partners. I like your idea, of let's first off, we have to find the willing and able jurisdictions that let you come in. And that's not always a guaranteed and it's not always a given. No, no, no. I'm not talking about the state level. I'm talking about the local jurisdiction. I could probably convince a few of them. No, I'm sure you can. But I like this idea. So from a physical perspective, what do you see differently here? Or is it the same? You're still working with the ISACs. What about the FBI? What about the state level law enforcement? What are those resources that you might get from, as you were talking about earlier, the top down? What does that look like? Well, right now it doesn't look like anything. And it's tricky to imagine the paradigms we have in Vermont really squeezing them in. That's going to have to come through the Secretary of State's office. And we have a very top-down system where Secretary of State really tells us what to do and how to run our elections. But you've got to remember in Vermont anyways, that's only about half a million people in the entire state. So Vermont is really the size of what we would consider one jurisdiction in a lot of the rest of the country. So I think that's uniquely scaled so that really the FBI, state authorities should come through that to us. Because there's just otherwise not going to be enough of them to go around with 256 jurisdictions with half a million people. So we're a little different in that. But I'd like to see our state and I think these smaller states, probably true of places like Wyoming and other smaller states, to see a lot of that facilitated through the Secretary of State's office as opposed to being an expectation at my level. And so that last mile was always difficult. For us, it was easy to work directly with the Secretaries of State or most Secretaries of State. But when you talk about those 9,000 jurisdictions getting out, counties, we could cover all the major counties. But once you start getting out of the townships and the localities, A, they're like, what the hell's a CISA? And B, what am I going to do with this stuff anyway? Because we're still running Windows 95. How is this going to work? And not only are you the town clerk, you're also the town CIO. And so there's a lot of that lack of capacity in that last mile that I think is part of the challenges. So Ashley, maybe bring this back into some of the ISAC questions and the information sharing mechanism. So as you come across something, if you come across something interesting, what are your processes for making sure it gets down to, well, it gets to Michael, but it also can work its way to John? Yeah, it might surprise some folks that even though I work for a vendor, we're a for-profit company, we do share a lot of our research publicly. Not to get cheesy, but I think the saying, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. I think that really applies, especially when it comes to election security, critical infrastructure security. And so just like you might have information sharing between states, we also have information sharing between vendors. There are entire groups that are dedicated to this. Cyber Threat Alliance is one that we really love. And so the more quickly and more efficiently we can get info out to these other vendors, the better we're able to actually help something as important as election security. And so I think if you work for a company that hasn't quite adopted that ethos yet, maybe make a suggestion. I think it's always better to partner and try to go farther with research than it is to try and be first or loudest. And I think most of the security community has also adopted that sentiment. Yeah, and that's something that I for sure saw over the last several years was the for-profit vendors, threat intelligence companies, starting to open up research, share it. We actually even worked with one of the largest CTI firms that had some license restrictions on what the information they shared with us. And we're like, oh, this is really important. We need to get it down to the states. They're like, ah, we can't. It's restricted by the licenses. But they opened up the licenses and we're able to kind of get that blast, that shotgun spread out there. And so that really, I think, was a big change in kind of mentality and resourcing. Because look, a lot of these jurisdictions are not going to be able to afford to buy these licenses. And never mind the fact that the money's just not there, right? Even if you talk about federal grants, that's going to take a while, if ever, to trickle down here. So we've got about, so maybe we can open up for a couple questions. And I don't, do we have that handheld, Matt? Yeah. I think they want to get it for the live stream. We got mics here. Just yell into our chests. That's not going to be awkward. I love it. All right. I would like to know how you see the influence of foreign countries and how you want to prevent that, any negative influence or to the voting. So how do you think about, I think, you know, the question here is, how do you and your jobs think about the impact of disinformation? Foreign, we'll say, we'll caveat it out as foreign right now. And I think you talked about it a little bit when you're starting to see the waves coming up, the local disruption, you know. Do you think about that, of how is it foreign? Is it domestic? Does it matter? It's just happening. And then how do you couch back against that? So I'll just, we can, you know, why don't we start with you, Michael? Right. I mean, misdisc and malinformation are basically my biggest concern, right? And to Mr. Krebs's point, attribution is difficult. I feel like at this point, it's very frequently, we're doing this to ourselves and that's incredibly frustrating. I'm deeply concerned about the drain that we have on our elections force, right? We have lost quite a bit of people, quite a bit of experience. Sometimes we're fortunate and they'll pivot from being at this county to a different county or come up to the secretary of state's office, which is great. But that's one of the things that I've really been trying to focus on is make people be safe and make people feel safe, right? There's a very real limit to the amount of times you receive a death before you're like, why am I doing this when I can make more money in the private sector? Like, is this really worth it to be having my family threatened all the time? So I take it incredibly seriously. And as I mentioned in the previous talk, sorry for repeating myself, we do active threat hunting and Maricopa County is the largest county in Arizona. And it's not just about like taking care of yourself, right? They do threat hunting. If they see something that affects a different county, they report it. They report it up to us. We have a precise codified process. We are fortunate and it seems like we have the gold standard when it comes to fusion centers, the ACTIC, the Arizona Counterterrorism and Information Center. It's a fusion center with local, state, federal law enforcement. They take everything seriously. We report threats and they handle it, right? It tends to be a one-way street. You don't get to always hear what happens. Sometimes you hear what happens in the media. Law enforcement doesn't really communicate back to you, but they investigate every single thing we report. And again, just the other thing of social media lockdown training, right? Making sure that we reduce the attack surface as much as possible so that when somebody tries to go after one of my staff, one of my electeds, they come up with as very little as possible. And the only other thing I wanted to mention on this is we're incredibly lucky in Arizona. Senate Bill 1061 has passed and what it allows is for anyone who is an election official, they can have their information redacted from public record. So no longer are their addresses going to be out there. I've made sure to communicate with our courts to make sure that we know exactly what the process is going to be. And as I talked about before, we have these statewide election security meetings. I'm going to hammer it home. Some of the counties are like, uh, you know, the bigger counties get more threats. We don't get so many threats. This costs nothing. Just do it. Get your information redacted. When people are banging on your door, it's already too late. You've been docked, right? Let's get it taken care of ahead of time. As far as misinformation goes and the impact it has, you know, I have a lot of interest in this sort of academically, but at my level, what matters is where the rubber hits the road. And that's, what does that mean at the polls? In that sense, it sort of doesn't matter if it's coming from a foreign or domestic interest. If people are getting the wrong information and they're coming to the polls. Well, let me, let me just put it this way. One of my biggest concerns that hasn't come yet is if somebody gets very angry based on some misinformation, and I don't mean come in and start doing an active shooter thing. I mean, sure that could happen. We definitely have protocols about that. It's, it's, it'll always be near the front of my mind. Frankly, I worry more about just somebody coming in with open carry. We talk about a lot about voter suppression, voter intimidation, and we're usually talking about that on a grander level, but really the ultimate voter suppression would be somebody walking in with the intent of intimidating other people and keeping them from voting. So in that sense, it really doesn't matter to me where it's coming from, because it's all going to land right at my lap. And we haven't had big problems with that yet, but I think it's responsible. I'm responsible and other folks, other election administrators on the ground are responsible to plan for that at this point. This sounds very grim and disturbing, and I'm actually very optimistic about all this stuff, but you know, it's grim stuff sometimes. So Ashley, you know, I know tracking foreign disinformation campaigns is much different than cyber threat intelligence, but do you guys look at this broader kind of information operation space as well? Yeah, what comes to mind, I think, in work we've recently done is, if you've been to my talk this morning, I apologize, I'm going to repeat myself a little bit, but we recently at my company had reviewed an application that was going to be used by a state entity for some of their back-end infrastructure for an election. And as part of this application, there was a dependency on a third-party library, so something that was open-source hadn't been written by the contractor in question. And in this third-party library, there were callbacks to a few foreign TLDs that are nations that we have rather tense relations with in the U.S. And so when I think about that, you know, what I think about is the potential for information that would have just a little bit of truth. And I think the potential to run with that, with someone with an agenda, with very extreme feelings, who is willing to take extreme action to manipulate an election, you know, that worries me. And so I think what we are most concerned about in terms of our work, which is a little bit sad, as you mentioned, is really preventing that opportunity from ever being there in the first place. I think that's a really key point, how little fragments that are not at all relevant to the casting, counting, certification of a vote, or the disruption of it, yet become the kernel of a conspiracy theory that then feeds that sort of activity you just talked about and some of the things that you guys have seen in Arizona. So maybe let's play off that a little bit and talk about understanding that, again, 2024 is around the corner and you both experienced, whether it was in 22 or 20, audits and post-election reviews, things like that. Understanding my personal view is post-election audits are a very good thing, assuming they're professionally conducted, set to a certain set of standards that are commonly accepted and agreed upon in advance rather than post hoc. Maybe you want to talk a little bit about how you are thinking about preparing for post-election reviews, post-election audits, that are both whether in statute or could be coming down the pipe. Maybe we'll start with that. Sure. Yeah, obviously I like audits, right? But to Mr. Krebs's point, they should be run by professionals that know what they're doing. Without using too many names, the Arizona Senate had an audit in 2021 of the 2020 general election. And, you know, we have an election procedures manual and it dictates how you do audits of things. And it doesn't use the word Lazy Susan in it ever at all. So like the idea of spinning and trying to count ballots and allowing for discrepancies, like it's surprising that they were even remotely close to the actual count. So not a fan of that. We have thought about like if we're going to have to do audits like this, how can we improve, right? Like there's always a way to improve security in elections, right? Because it's a system that exists in the universe. And, you know, one of the things that would be very interesting to implement into the election management systems is a mechanism for key logging, right? Because why not, right? If they're going to, if there's going to be a question in your election management system of it has someone tampered with it, it would be really nice to, by default, have every single key lock, every keystroke, mouse click, whatever, logged. And then that can be reviewed, right? And you can demonstrate that there hasn't been any anyone doing anything wacky and trying to change any kind of results. Yeah, I think that's a key point there, John, or Michael, rather. You can run the cleanest election possible. There's someone that has an incentive out there to claim that something went wrong. And so I continue to think, and this is what I think, where Steve and Richard in Maricopa County, a reporter, has done a very good job of upfront transparency. You know, take the pieces off the board that could be used to get you down the road. And this is a shift I think we've seen in election administration over the last half decade or more, is where it was usually kind of a mundane state-local election process that, well, nobody would want to, nobody cares what we do here to make sure elections go on. This is, this is mundane stuff. But now it's, you know, headlines stuff, you know, headline news, always on TV. So you have to rethink your strategic communications approach. We talked about that a little bit this morning. All right, John, so anything you want to jump in there and add on? Like anticipating challenges, how do you make sure that you've got the tightest possible approach in preparation for any election, post-election challenges? Anything to add? Well, we're definitely dotting our I's and crossing our T's more than we usually do. I think we, again, to harp on the small jurisdiction, we would like to see a little more leadership from the state. I'll tell you all something that is probably going to shock you. I've been running elections in Montpelier for 12 years, and the Secretary of State has audited my voting machines exactly zero times. This never happened. That, we'd like to see a little, to pass the buck a little bit up, I'd like to see a little bit more of that. But other than that, you know, I'd like to say that we've always done everything absolutely up to specs, dotted every I, crossed every T. Now that I'm actually doing that, I'm realizing that we haven't always. But we're certainly taking the steps now to make sure everything can go as well as it possibly can. Do you not have LNAs in Vermont? Do you not do logic and accuracy tests by the Secretary of State? Nope. Well, no, let me qualify that. They are done randomly. Okay, but not every election? After every election, they're done randomly. My number has yet to come up. So I think a random test is inadequate, I guess is my point. So we do test. State-level tests. State-level tests. And they'll go to individual jurisdictions and test and audit their machines. But it's, it's scattershot. And I have not been hit by any of the scattershot yet. So that's, there's, there's room for improvement. And I know we're not unique. I think there's, I think all of this speaks to just what a range, what a curve there is on elections in this, in this country, between Vermont, Arizona, Mississippi, wherever, wherever you go, things are not uniform. And there are places that take this much more seriously than others. And there needs to be some kind of standardization, or at least an expectation of standardization moving forward. Or, you know, the, the more vulnerable states are going to shake out from the less vulnerable states. And we're going to start seeing more problems in some areas than others. Ashley, anything you want to jump in on? I don't think so. Okay. All right. So we're, we're getting up to time here. So I'm against better judgment. I'm actually, I will take another question from the audience. All right. So we'll take two because the hands went up simultaneously. So since you're right in front of me. So this is kind of playing off of what you said. So, you know, in, in any type of sales, right, you have different segments that you're in. And right now, what I'm hearing your segment in is, you're in a defensive mode. You're going to get attacked. I'm in a defensive mode. It's always fun to carry the ball, right? I think Americans want to be peaceful and get along, but you have a product that you're keeping secret. If you got in front of the camera 500 times and said that to the public, and you're, we're not perfect, but here's what we're doing to make them as secure as possible. You did yours. You did yours. Why not get in the offensive mode and start educating the public as much as you can and really do those things. Hey, we know we're not perfect. We're plugging the holes because how many people have iPhones? I've had to convince so many people that the notifications to update your iPhone, this is not a secret conspiracy to get into your iPhone. This is that they're putting a patch on your phone so people can't get in. So this is from the other side, because I believe a lot in detente, be prepared for the worst. My husband's a retired AC for LA County fire, right? Be prepared for the worst, but you have some time to start building confidence. There's a man from Holland here, and we actually had them conversation about building trust. It's not going to happen by saying it once. You're going to have to get on there and create a PR program. And really people don't want to be fighting. And honestly, you have a lot of Christians in this, this thing. What if Jesus was sitting next to them? You really need to say that what I heard that you expose, people need to know that this is what's happening to their neighbor. This is not acceptable, right? But get out there and tell them, stop keeping your product a secret. We are doing this. We're trying to do auditing. Yes, you can hack the machine, but there's all these other walls in place other than the machine that's helping keep the machine secure. It's not just the hack. Get out and just start talking, talking, and it's not going to be once. It's going to be a lot to that really quickly because you're so right. Okay. This is something I talked about in my own talk. So if anybody heard that, you're going to get a little bit of a rerun, but I am an incredible optimist about this. I think the message is not that there aren't going to be problems, that there aren't going to be challenges and not theoretical challenges, but actual some of this stuff manifesting. But if we are looking at all the problems openly, and we're doing everything we should do, we're covering all the bases that when we take a hit, it's going to be a glancing blow and not a mortal wound. And I think that is the message to get out. Like I said, otherwise, a lot of this becomes kind of nihilistic. But when I talk to folks, I always close up with that because that's what brings it all together. And that's why we're all here. That's why Voting Village exists, is to shine that kind of sunshine and show the world we're going to do everything right. So the PTSD you just triggered, by the way, with me, because this is what we did for the 2020. Super quick. So what? Yes. Yes. I'm here. We're having this talk. My secretary of state's right there. My communication director is here. And just the fact that vote like we're trying, we are trying. But the lies are more sexy than the truth. Right? We've got 2000 mules. We have an elections procedure manual. Right? No, nobody wants to read that. So we're right. We are trying. I assure you, we're trying. All right. Sorry. I think this could have to be the last one. So I have a question about sort of training for poll workers and training for the voter. Sometimes the risk is inside the house. So is there like insider threat training you do or other sort of cyber hygiene training you do for election workers? Oh, well, the last election was the first time I ever had a moment of doubt about a couple of my election volunteers. I was like, hmm. So I don't look for that. I'm not looking for the sneaky ones. And maybe I should be. I have the great luxury of being in, I'm going to say, I'm going election-oriented, civic-oriented Montpelier, Vermont. Others don't have that luxury. But I guess it's a long-winded way of saying I have thought about it. And I don't have good systems in place yet. But I will. I'm absolutely concerned about insider threat. Oh, I don't have to stand. I'm absolutely concerned about insider threat. I do need to stand? Okay. I am absolutely concerned about insider threat. In Arizona, we have election officer certification and that kind of thing is discussed there. Maricopa has specifically implemented premium poll worker training that's multiple day-long training, right? And it's very much a see something, say something. And if you are concerned about election security, please, if you have the means, please be a poll worker. If you see someone doing something weird, report it, right? Absolutely. But, you know, we have had some instances where people behave oddly and staff members notice that and they report it and we have it on camera and we're able to see the weirdness that people are doing and they're out of there and we contact that political party and let them know, like, hey, this person did this thing. They're not welcome back. Make sure you vet your people. Okay. We had one more question that was more about local partnerships. Basically, making use of trusted associations to try to address misinformation, malinformation and so forth. Like, is there a move locally, nationally to do more of that? I think that's a tricky thing to do as the local elections person. To sort of coordinate civic groups, you get into questions of who are you bringing into your partnership? Because, I mean, there is a certain degree of neutrality, I think, that has to be maintained. And that's the kind of thing I would like to see somebody else do. But I think coordinating it out of my office would be problematic. There'd be anything from, yeah, questions, who am I bringing in? Why am I not bringing in others? There could be questions of implicit bias that then come up. So I'd love to that happen, but I don't think I'm going to do it. So forgive me, but I don't remember the name of the association, but there's a Veterans Association, right? And veterans are the most trusted people. Unfortunately, they're also frequently the target of MDM, right? But there is an initiative to utilize veterans for poll workers. And I mean, what kind of psycho is going to be threatening veterans? So I think it's a very... and they're trusted, right? So... All right. With that, I think we're wrapping it up here. I want to thank both of you for what you do in the furtherance of democracy. Thank you. Thank you for that. And everybody, I think we give them a round of applause. Ashley, thank you for what you guys do as well."
}