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    "text": " Okay, I'm so excited for our final panel of the day. We have a panel full of a variety of misinformation, disinformation, malinformation specialists. I'd like to introduce Michael Moore, Joe Schneebs, Maya Mazurkiewicz, and our moderator, our special guest, Donnie O'Sullivan. Donnie, take it from here. Oh, hello. What about now? Yeah? Is that better? You can all hear me? In the back? All right, guys. Thank you for coming to this panel. Should I do like one of the TikTok influencers and do it like that? All right. Thanks very much for coming. I'm so glad to see you're all surviving DEF CON. I'm almost dead. We might just get you guys to just quickly introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about, you know, what your job has to do with the world of misinformation and disinformation. Let's start with you, Maya. Thank you so much. My name is Maya Mazurkiewicz. I'm a co-founder of Alliance for Europe, and we look at disinformation and how disinformation is changing attitudes of people and how it's affecting choices in the elections in our democracy. We work with a disarm framework and with the European Commission, with a number of governments as well, and partners to actually research and then look at how we can better work on the positive communication and strategic communication as well. I'm Joe Schneebs. I focus a lot more on the digital patterns and profiles that people leave behind, kind of the digital refuse or the digital off-gassing or the digital fingerprints, and how that looks to a client or an adversary. And we help our clients who are mostly in the government sector modify that or manipulate that to ensure that they have safety, privacy, security, data integrity, and then also understand how to think about that from a countersphere. And so we're seeing a lot of misinformation and disinformation in patterns, in digital data, more of the metadata side, less content. And sound check. You guys hear me okay in the back? All right. Not too much feedback. Awesome. So my name is Michael Moore. I'm the chief information security officer at the Arizona Secretary of State's office. MDM is a concern for me for two main reasons. One, I and my team deal with threats to election officials, right? And MDM is a primary generator of those threats to election officials. And second, you can't have democracy without elections. You can't have elections if people don't have confidence in the system. MDM is eroding that confidence and causing people to just not believe that there's a point in participating because it's just corrupted. Just a show of hands, of the folks here, a lot of you based outside of the U.S. or from outside of the U.S. or mostly U.S. crowd here? Mostly U.S. crowd. So you guys, I guess, all know about the kind of crisis of misinformation, disinformation is having on American democracy and on folks like Mike and his colleagues, and it's leading to violent threats against you and people not trusting the systems and everything you work so hard to do. Mike, can you tell us a little bit about what the is like just generally in Europe? Are there hotspots now where kind of what is happening here in the U.S. is playing out there where, you know, the kind of playbook of disinformation as it comes to distrust and elections is playing out or is it not as pronounced as what's happening here? It's very much pronounced. And, you know, I work with disinformation since 2016 and until 2015 I've been working for the previous president of Poland and we had elections in 2015 and like the reason why I got involved with disinformation was basically how I saw disinformation influence our elections and how the populistic government that we are still having has been using it in their campaign and how later looking at the patterns of Russia being involved In Europe and in Ukraine, because I've been working for the Polish president also at the first invasion of Russia into Ukraine back in 2014, so we've been already seeing the operation influences happening back then. And right now it's getting more and more profound. I believe that everything that we see in terms of the politics and the situation with this disinformation could have been foreseen, right? It's not, of course, that we have a, I don't know, like a magical thing of seeing what can happen. But I mean, looking at the patterns, it is obvious that people, behaviours are being changed by the communication and information. And if we're seeing different bad actors influencing the sphere, we also can foresee the changes in the democracy, elections and others. And that's what exactly is happening right now. Coming from Poland, bordering country with Ukraine, we see a lot of operation influence of Russia in Poland and other European countries. There is the caused polarisation that caused a lot of destabilisation. And that's also the goal of Russia and other bad actors that are influencing our information sphere. So I think that what we need to focus more is to see the patterns as well and cooperate across the transatlantic, but also looking at the global south, because it's not only happening in the EU, in Europe, in the United States, but already Africa or India are big battlegrounds for the information and disinformation wars. Yeah. Mike, so you work for Maricopa County Secretary of State, Secretary of State's office? Right. Formerly, I was with the Maricopa County reporter's office with the Secretary of State. Arizona Secretary of State, excuse me. Arizona, Maricopa County specifically is kind of ground zero in a lot of this. You were there in 2020. You know, quite a big bulk of the population doesn't believe that elections were free and fair in Arizona in 2020. Or at the very least, there's a vocal minority that believes that. In good clarification, and they are vocal. So what's the plan for 2024 to try and push back against that? Are you going to have another cyber ninja situation? Why are you going to put that evil on me? Okay. So I'm going to answer your question, but just super quick, I want to make sure we're all using the same shared vocabulary, both on the panel and in the audience. So MDM, right? Miss, we're at DEF CON. I want to be helpful. So I'm going to ask where the bathroom is. I say, oh, it's that way. Whoops. It's not that way. It was an accident. I could be trying to be helpful versus disinformation. We're at DEF CON. I just want to mess with somebody. I ask where the bathroom is. I tell them the wrong way. Malinformation, they're like, where's the bathroom? I've got a, you know, the map, the book that shows where everything is. And I've subtly changed it to show that the bathroom is in a different location, right? So taking an official source and effectively using disinformation on that. So what are we doing? Well, it's tough. So like I've mentioned in previous panels, the lies are more sexy than the truth, right? If you watch something like 2000 Mules, it's set to music. It's like watching a spy movie. It's very much a narrative versus almost nobody, maybe some of the folks here at DEF CON want to read the election procedures manual, right? It's incredibly boring. It's a set of rule books. Perhaps if you read Dungeons and Dragons, you know, Dungeon Master Guide, and that's your jam, maybe you'll read the election procedures manual. But Maricopa County, they have a site called justifacts.vote. Justifacts.vote, it redirects to the .gov site, and it goes through in debunks and pre-bunks MDM, right? So if there is something that is just going to die on the vine, the communications team, along with leadership, makes a decision whether or not we want to respond to something. The last thing you want to do is amplify a message and have it have more traction. And I forget who just sent it to me, but I believe it was a talk in the Misinformation Village where misinformation tends to be shared 40 times more than the truth, right? And it sort of makes sense because the misinformation is going to be something that is designed specifically to elicit a strong negative response, right? How often do you see something on the internet and you're like, I can't believe that's true. That makes me so mad. Wait a minute. Is it true? Who made this? Why did they make this? What are they trying to get me to see, think, feel? So hopefully that helps. I think we look at the problem well before somebody is focused on necessarily the way they think about voting. And a lot of the psychological phenomenon that we see kind of portrayed in some of the misinformation or disinformation campaigns is focused on attacking that bubble, that cohort of like-minded individuals. And in doing so, if everyone agrees, then nobody says anything. So then you feel like you're not really part of something. So as soon as somebody says like, hey, here's a thing, and this is a more extreme viewpoint, that cohort, that bubble just runs with that message. So that's why we see it get shared a lot more often. And we see these bubbles kind of become much more extreme than their individual parts. And that's where a lot of these messages and these campaigns actually like prey on those types of bubbles. Something else that we see as well is the space is crowded with a lot of different misinformation and disinformation messages from a lot of different parties and different sources. And these micro campaigns, they're very good at figuring out exactly what to say to get you to buy something. But to change your mind about how you're going to vote two years from now, that's a much more complex thing. And if you are thinking about that, you put a lot of resources into that, it can be derailed by somebody doing a micro campaign right in the middle. So it's a very crowded space. Additionally, because it's so crowded, because it's so hard to like pull apart all these pieces and say, well, who's actually saying this? And why are they saying this? What's the intent? And what's the attribution? Not a lot of people actually participate in those types of systems. Not a lot of people actually are able to dig through them quickly. And because of that, messaging campaigns are able to take viral load very quickly. And we just can't respond from a governmental level, like I have to go get 37 permissions to like do one thing. And so by that time, I've already got 17 different messages that I have to confront. And you know, none of them are going to get addressed. And so it's the responsiveness that we see as well, it's easier to generate a message, it's hard to change that message. Something related that deeply concerns me is I'm seeing a lot of, is it misinformation or is it disinformation? Even louder, I'm going to be screaming. Okay. I'm concerned that a lot of the myths and disinformation that we're seeing is coming from elected officials or candidates. And that attribution is, you know, is it misinformation or is it disinformation? Do they know what they're saying is wrong? Or are they doing it on purpose? What network of people are surrounding them telling them what they want to hear? Like, it's not you, you didn't lose, the system is rigged, right? And of course, that's addicting, I would imagine. I'm not as much concerned actually about the myths and disinformation issue, right? Because it's much more on definition. I'm much more concerned of what is happening and why it's happening and what it's doing to us, right? And to our brains. And like getting into more of what you said, like giving the example of Russia, they really know how to target us. And the way how they produce disinformation is that, first of all, they have the ministry full of people, right? Sitting in St. Petersburg and making the accounts and messages that are exactly out there to target our emotions and very deep knowledge of what is targeting us. And it's usually like some of the things are very common to wherever you live. So it's us versus them narratives. So whether we know someone or we don't, if we don't know someone as, for example, refugees coming over, it's much easier to attribute some negative influence over it. So they use this everywhere, right? And then we can look at it from the big picture and we can fight it from kind of like smaller ground. But like what they do as well, they are touching our emotions and our hearts. So what they very often do, they create accounts on Telegram, Twitter, Facebook, wherever there is, for example, a spiritual account or a religious account. And they are starting to spread factual information or information that are very much based on our beliefs. And based on this, when they getting the tracks and followers, they started to bring the information. And for example, what they've been doing, they've been having the anti-vaccine movements much before COVID-19 and amplifying the messages, supporting them. And by the way, we're going to do some audience Q&A. I don't know if we are going to have another microphone there in the middle in a bit, but I'll let you figure that out. So I think, you know, there's a lot of talk about everything in this space, of course, but I think what you guys hit on was, you know, there is a kind of psychological appeal to this, right? And I think you were kind of hitting on that. There's a sense of there's a sense of community there. And like, if you're in, if you're in on the secret, if you understand, oh, actually, no, these elections aren't fair. They're, you know, what the media, what everybody else is telling you is a lie. What the election officials are telling you is a lie. And here's the truth. There is like a, there is a, there is a, to your point, you know, if everybody's telling you you're right, there's a great sense of community there. And what is this? And I mean, I know this is a very big job in question for a Secretary of State's office. But, but how, how can the approach go beyond, you know, just tackling and trying to put facts out there, in terms of actually addressing this core issue that seems to be particularly pronounced in a state like Arizona, where people have this appeal, this really is appealing to a cohort of people. And, you know, is there something, is there, is there a different route that, that, that society can offer people to go down? And how do you make that appealing? Sure. And I definitely don't have the final answer, but... You don't? Oh, my God. You don't know how to solve all this? There's a whole MDM village, right? And we're doing a talk about MDM here as well, right? So say I do have my communications director here, right? Like, we're taking this very seriously. We're doing everything we can. You told me to do better. I'm listening to you. We're trying. There's lots of voter outreach, right? At the county level of the Secretary of State's office, we're trying to reach out to people across the spectrum, left and right, and all the way in between, going out to events, talking to them, creating content. You're not faceless. You know, faceless bureaucrats, faceless officials. And also trying to connect with community leaders. In particular, the veterans are the most trusted source of people, but they're also frequently targeted by MDM. So how do we reach out to them, answer their questions, make them feel comfortable, bring them into our facilities, give them tours, make sure that they get priority to be poll workers so they can be part of the process? Like I mentioned yesterday, we're seeing threats to election officials. If somebody's a veteran, who's threatening veterans? That just seems like a terrible idea. Maybe these people would still do it, but hopefully that would help deter that as well. And do you find that is that working? Because I mean, obviously, we've seen so many threats of violence being made against election officials, many of whom, you know, are volunteers, right? So by trying to go out into the community in that way, are you seeing is that changing people's minds? Is that changing perspectives from what you can see in any measurable way, at least anecdotally? I can't give you two specific examples. But, you know, recently, they told me about an event they were going to at a gun show. And I'm like, you're going to a gun show. That seems like that might be not the best idea. But we've got to go out to people. And, you know, nobody pulled a weapon. Everyone was civil in person. And people come to our facilities, some minds are not changed. But, you know, hopefully they're being shifted. Some people are gonna be unreachable. We just shift them. Yeah, towards a little bit more trust. So the bar is not to have a gun pulled on an election. But in terms of, you know, just back to that wider point, Joe, and you could talk more broadly about this is, is, is this idea of why is this all just so much more appealing than the truth, which can be quite boring? Yeah, I think, you know, really, from that individual identity, we, we psychologically really like that reward of being first or being important or having a message or having an identity. And a lot of these misinformation campaigns or disinformation campaigns, or however you wish to call it, and I'm in I'm in your camp, it matters little to me because whether it's second, third, fourth order effect, it's still effect that I'm that I'm interested in. When we, when we watch when we watch these campaigns get started, the targeting that goes on in them is is to look for these fringe elements that don't have an identity that don't have a place that are easy to latch on to that are easy to mobilize that are easy to activate. And then providing them that information, they essentially just provide it right back as an echo chamber to their same cohort, and people like them and people identify with them. And then and then that begins to grow. So it's a very organic process. And it requires very little if you do a lot of the targeting up front correctly. And that's really where we see a lot of the effect coming from. I mean, the violence against election officials, like, I mean, what 10 years ago, nobody would have thought to like, think even think about offering violence as a solution to this. But today it's offered because we have so many different identified methods in which those types of influence campaigns are being pushed and forced to create a division. Those are foreign and domestic. So my you spoke a lot about the threat of foreign disinformation, particularly, as you mentioned, coming from Russia, I mean, I think, in the US, there might have been this idea after 2016, that, you know, this was a very much a foreign interference problem, where, whereas I think Americans have learned has since that's a great majority of this is very much a domestic issue. I assume that's also the same case in Europe. I mean, it's not just Russia, right? So it's also domestic. And indeed, political parties are also deploying this information and building it on the same patterns, right? Even have something that is called authoritarian playbook. And it's being used by the authoritarian regimes, wherever they're coming from. I mean, we have the foreign actors, but we also have the domestic characters. And to your points, right? Like what we can do with it, because we can do things with it. It's not that we should sit in there and only say like, Oh my God, there's this information, let's run. I mean, we need to, we live in a space that is that during a day, we're getting as many information as our ancestors did during the whole lifetime, right? We are not able to fact check it. We are not able to kind of like protect against this information in this way. But like what we can support, because I very much believe that protecting or like countering disinformation is only possible with the whole society aspect. And we only can do it together with the governments, NGOs and others and experts. And we should do more of raising awareness that there is disinformation and the way how we actually look at the social media, or anything that is coming to us actually right now should be bringing the awareness if we are afraid of bringing our emotions, right, because that's how this disinformation is being deployed, then we should do the research. And that's what we're doing with a disarm. We're doing research and very deep research of what is happening in the internet, what operation influence narratives are being spread out there, and how they can affect our minds, right, and how they can further develop. So not only looking at what is already viral, but what is there before. And the third part is actually like a counter narratives, right? So that's what we're doing right now before the Polish election. We are building the ISAC with our different partners from the civil society and the media organizations where we're doing a research, we're seeing what is happening during campaigns, what are the emerging narratives out there, and we're giving the support to the civil society organization with the counter narratives and possible way of amplifying their message. Because very often we don't know how to communicate and we need to change the way we are communicating. We need to find these grounds of the emotions to actually give this positive, truthful, and based on our values communication to people that are out there. Yeah, go ahead. Two things on that. So on the education piece, what I would love to see, the reason that I recycle is because when I was a kid, I watched the cartoon, Captain Planet, right? Like that made it real for me. It gave a narrative. It's not that hard to try and take care of the environment, be mindful of that kind of thing. I'd love to see something similar for MDM and critical thinking, like just teach our kids this is what logical fallacies are and look out for people making these kind of arguments. What is the source, citations, etc. But the second thing that you touched on as well, like we can't just ignore MDM, right? If you have friends or family, I know this is extremely painful, but like figure out a way to talk to them and not just like, oh crazy uncle, blah, blah, blah. He's always posting these weird things that are not true about... We all have them in our lives, right? We all have an uncle. Some more than others. You know, in Poland, sometimes we even don't sit with the other family members voting for another party. So that's what's happening, right? We ignore it if we don't... Yeah, exactly. We can't do that. I think there's a piece of this too, and you mentioned it, and it's that feedback loop. It contrasts to kind of a China, right? We have, sorry, we lift that up. Can you hear me better now? Contrast this to China, right? They're a black hole for data. We don't know what a message looks like when it goes into China. We don't know what their perception of American politics is. We don't know what the average Chinese person thinks on a day-to-day basis. Contrast that with the US. I know exactly what you had to eat for breakfast because you tweeted it and then put it on Facebook and then sent a bajillion messages on it. We get to see that across media, and we are one of the most connected societies, and we generate so much data. It is easy to understand what influence looks like for us, and we get that feedback loop. We're missing that from a lot of other nations. And I mean, if you look even in Poland, right? The connectivity in Poland is good, but it's not like it is in the US. The platforms are built for that here because we generate a lot of revenue, or ad tech revenue, so providers are really interested in our money. So they connect us much better. That gives our adversaries unprecedented access to the ability to manipulate us as well. So it's that double-edged sword. So we have to think about, especially if we're going to combat this, how do we think about the feedback loops that tell us whether or not our messages are effective, and when we need to actually generate those messages. Because our adversaries see it very keenly. But it goes to the research, and what is the research is about listening. And we very often forget how to listen. Even in our conversation, like daily conversations, right? We're just like so focused on our positions, on our views, and we think that we know the best. And that's it. I mean, like, we don't. If we are generating messages, like we need to realize, and I'm doing a lot of campaigns. I've been doing the political campaigns since 20 years, right? Starting in high school, pretty much. And like, you don't do it to the people like you. You do it to other people. So you need to get to know them. And that's the research for as well. And it's very easy to make it. I know for the fact that the Polish government is using focus group pretty much for every single decision that they're making. And pretty much every single communication that they're spreading, right? So they know what to tell to people. And that's legal. That's actually good. Why we're not using this? Why we're not listening to people? And then like, making our minds of better communicated what we want to tell them, but in a way that they are able to listen to it. And back to holding the microphone like I'm a TikTok influencer doing a review of brunch in Miami or something. Mike, you mentioned, you know, obviously, there's candidates who are running in elections while undermining, trying to undermine the democratic process. You mentioned movies like 2,000 Mules. 2,000 or 4,000? 2,000, isn't it? 2,000 Mules. Yeah. Two more than come out of nowhere. Please don't give them money. That's the sequel. Those movies, there's been a lot of messaging around telling people, it's always good to have people involved, more people involved in the democratic process. It's always good to have more people to go and volunteer to be election officials. But a lot of this messaging is to try and get people to volunteer to see these movies and then go volunteer and work as election officials, not necessarily to help out, but to try and expose some terrible thing that might not necessarily be there. And we have seen cases, instances where these really hardcore conspiracy theorists essentially are now working as poll workers and election officials. Can you talk to us a bit about that? I mean, I assume maybe sometimes when people are brought into the process, it might change their mind and they say, okay, what I saw in that movie is bullshit. But then there is a threat there also, right? That if you're bringing people in who might end up compromising systems or different things in terms of trying to find this to give truth to their conspiracy theory. Absolutely. And for sure, if you have any doubts about elections in your area, please volunteer and be a poll worker, but also please don't break the law and try to mess with the system. If we're lucky, people come in and say, absolutely not on my watch. There will be no cheating. And if I see somebody doing something squirrelly, I'm going to report it all the way down to someone may attempt to compromise something and put their phone on a scale. Don't do that. Do not do that. You will get caught. You will be arrested. There's multiple instances where that kind of thing has happened. And I want people to be skeptical about elections and not blindly trust. I'm not going to tell you to always trust the outcome of an election without any kind of evidence, but I also would not say don't accept evidence. Don't accept claims to the contrary without any sort of evidence whatsoever. It is very possible that there could be regional pockets where someone who is an election conspiracy theorist, has an insider threat situation, could make a compromise. That's why we have checks and balance to pick up this kind of thing, not just prevention, detection, and recovery. We have paper ballots. We can always recount the ballots if we need to. And I think we're going to try to open it up to some audience Q&A. I don't know if we have... Oh, we have a microphone. Very good. Well, let's go with this guy in the first row, because he's got his hand up. Wait till you get the mic there. Hello? Yes. Okay. So my question to, I guess, all of you three on the panel, I heard, I guess, mainly from you from Poland regarding your solutions, at least what your country is intending to do to address this situation. But I haven't heard on these other two gentlemen, and what you guys are trying to do. Are you guys trying to use her example to then try to do it, like, for instance, in Arizona? Or can you, like, just in a very succinct way, tell the audience here what you guys are doing in Arizona or within your authority to combat this situation? Okay. Mike? Yeah, again, specifically just to combat MDM is what your question was? Yeah, because you weren't specific, as specific as this lady here, what they're doing in Poland. So I was just curious, regarding to what you're doing in Arizona. Right. It's extremely challenging. And a lot of it is voter education and trying to get the truth out there, have the truth be loud, presented to people constantly, right? We have voter outreach programs, justifacts.vote, we create newsletter content. Maricopa has at Maricopa vote YouTube, where it has our election directors who go through the processes, right? But it's again, it's challenging to make it super engaging for people. There's also like, people who trust the system aren't necessarily going to look for material versus people that don't trust the system don't want to hear it from you, because they don't trust you, right? So they are also attempting to reach out to community leaders and answer all of their questions to try and spread from those trusted sources in those communities. Like, if they, if, for example, a church or a veterans group, right? If they're hearing people in their community have concerns, they're a subject matter expert in their community, and they can start to answer questions and connect them back to us, come out and take tours and see our facility and see, you know, the place the votes are actually counted in all the security controls that we have in place. Jess, sure. And so, so from my side, to clarify, we're in private industry. And so a lot of our clients are very interested in closing the information gap. And so what we do is we provide a lot of streams, a lot of analytic products to help them make decisions faster. And so, you know, you mentioned you use focus groups in a lot of the areas that we are helping our clients understand what influence looks like and how to combat influence in their, in their realms. It's just too slow for us. And so we need the data-driven models. And so a lot of that is where we go out and seek which types of data sets do we need? Where are they coming from? How quickly can I get them? Are they informative or not? Are they the right representative population? And then there's the other side where we're actually authoring messages as well and pushing those out. And so we have to build those channels. So it's, it's kind of a dual-edged sword and it really depends on the campaign. But everything from, you know, Afghanistan to Ukraine to Poland to even, even messages in and out of Russia, because if you think about the constituents, the voting constituents there, that's the only way that you're going to put pressure on the government to stop is make the Russian mothers mad that Russians are dying, right? I mean, that's, that's really what's going to end a war, not, hey, Putin, you did something bad, right? All right. And who's next? This guy, man over here in the red shirt. Yeah. One of the, hello? Hello. One of the things that struck me both about, about the past election is that of the, is the speed of misinformation. And it can take days with a recount, it can take days, but sometimes it takes weeks, months, and perhaps even a year as it runs through a court system before the misinformation is identified as misinformation. How are you going to deal with that issue? I'd, I'd love to know what can be put in place to kind of make the correction of mis-mal-dis-information kind of correction process faster. One, one final thing is, as I think about the last election, one thing that strikes me is that sometimes the careful presentation of data almost came down to relying on the brute honesty of election officials. And that is great, but it also scares me a little that if a few election officials chose to be dishonest, things could have gone a different direction. I wouldn't mind hearing any, from any of you on that. One of the great challenges is any of us could sit down at a, at a, you know, at a couch and have a couple drinks and come up with a hundred pieces of misinformation that take thousands of hours for an election official to actually collect the data to disprove. And some things are not disprovable, right? If they're asking you to prove a negative, okay, good luck, right? Prove that something didn't happen. So that's extremely challenging. And I'm going to ask this kind of following up on, on, on what this gentleman was asking, is, you know, it's, it's all fine to say that's disinformation, that's false. But then systems, institutions don't always necessarily instill trust, right? In terms of during COVID in 2020, you had a lot of the mainstream media, you had a lot, you had Facebook totally banning people talking about the lab leak theory when it comes to COVID-19. Facebook totally banned that. And a lot of it was, you know, that it's all being litigated by government pressure, pressure from elsewhere. They eventually had to lift that ban, because now we see that it could have potentially, the lab leak theory might have some credence to it. How, you know, how then, how can you tell people to trust these institutions, when sometimes these institutions, in their view, are censoring them to things that might turn out to be actually a fact? You know, like, for me, those are two different questions. And I'm gonna try to adjust to both of them, right? So like, first of all, if we're talking about disinformation, because disinformation is the one that is causing issues, right? Misinformation is pretty much each of us is spreading misinformation, or like doing it, like, I put a lot of misinformation in my life, each of you did, like, I'm an expert on it. But still, this information is done on purpose, and it's serving a certain purpose, right? But with what I said, that there is so much information in the information space, we are not able to fact check everything. We're just not able to fact check everything. So what we are doing with Disarm framework, within the Disarm Foundation and Alliance for Europe, it's like, we're supporting the researchers that are doing awesome, to give them this table, right? So they match the tactics and techniques of the operation influence. And we have another table that is telling how we can counterfeit it, right? So it's not always fact checking, in terms of like going outside and saying, it's not true that, because sometimes that's actually more amplifying this disinformation. So for example, the QAnon, right, that was a big one in the US, it wouldn't be a big one in Europe, if not Der Spiegel, and a few other media outlets talking about it out there, right? So sometimes if you see this, it's better to just stay still, monitor and see what is happening, right? And it might just not go viral in this sense. So different ways of actually like working on it. But what happened with COVID? It's a kind of a different way, right? Because we were, again, few people were saying that the pandemic gonna happen before, right? And I think that we also living in the country, in the world as we are living, we could have think that there will be pandemic. Still, if there's going to be another pandemic, the governments are not ready to deal with it, they're probably going to do exactly the same things that they've done two years ago, right? Like, I really believe that we need to strategize more of how we deal with the issues like this. But that's set aside. What happened with COVID was that we didn't know what's happening. We were in fear. Like someone is telling us that we're all gonna die pretty much, right? And nobody really gave any factual information, right? And there was, when you were putting in the media, like any TV, like CNN, everywhere, it was fear. It was just like opening this TV and you were in fear. And there were no factual information. Nobody knew what to do. There was nothing that was calming people in a way as well. And that's how these informers were getting the truck. Because that's like very much like our thing that we are based on. It's like a very primitive thing, right? We need to feel secure. If we don't feel secure, we're looking for the conspiracy theories that are giving us kind of the explanation of what is happening. I just want to say, you know, we're at DEF CON, right? You all know every system is hackable, freedom of speech is being hacked with what we're seeing right now. And maybe you guys like me, but I don't think any of you want me to be the one who is in charge of what you can't and can't say on the internet or kick down your door when you say something that's incorrect, right? So we're up against a very challenging battle of when someone says something that's a lie, they know it's a lie, it's causing public harm. I don't have the means to shut that down on social media, on a private platform, right? Like everyone is concerned about the idea of a ministry of truth, who gets to determine what's true and what's not true. Oh, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I think there's another piece of this. Our adversaries who wish to feed these types of information campaigns towards us, they don't think about like, in three years, this is what this is going to do. They think about like, today, I'm going to say this, and it's going to create an effect. And it's going to echo back into my constituency, back into the country that I'm in, or the cohort that I'm in, and I get my effect out of it. Meanwhile, we're left to pick up all these pieces. And so maybe a way to think about it a little differently is to think about it a little bit like the cybersecurity game. Instead of spending so much time on attribution and purpose and intent, we patch the vulnerability, we build more resilient systems, we create systems that have trust and authenticity in them. And we don't participate in systems that don't. And that's the difficulty I think I see is, you know, we mentioned like, well, how do you trust these institutions that run all of our communications? We choose to trust them, we choose to participate, we click the EULA at the bottom and say, yes, we never read it, we never read it. And they then get the choice of how do I want to censor? How do I want to filter? And whether you're a believer in that we can do this ourselves by voting with our feet, or you think that there is a government institution that needs to step in and say, these are the policies and regulations that will exist in EULAs and these companies because they serve such a utility within the communications framework, they must respond this way or they must adhere to these policies. Whichever one you choose, we need something because we can't continue to operate in this like, well, I have no idea of half the messages I'm getting and I don't have time in my day to go through each individual message and cull through that. And if we're relying on one government institution to combat this entirety, I mean, the states can't even determine what they want to do for data privacy, let alone our federal government. And so these are big challenges. And so I think it's the systems that we need to address first. But definitely, can I just click on it? Because definitely, we need to address the system. And what is the first thing? A lot of bad actors know what they are doing, and they're actually thinking about the future because that's what they want to do, right? They want to destabilize our countries, they want to take over, like, have more influence and have more influence all over, right? So it's not that they don't know, right? Very often, they actually have a lot of tactics that are spreading in order to have it, and we need to strategize more as well for a long term. I would actually push back a little on that, because I don't think that a lot of the actors that we see have these, like, large netted multi-year campaigns. They're thinking about, like, if I just say that the US is, you know, generally in shambles, and their political system doesn't work, that's enough to, like, garner, you know, some faith and vote here for me as a candidate saying, we're beating the US, look, your nationalist pride has increased. On our side, though, we're seeing, like... But they are very small campaigns, right? And look what they all are causing. There are a bunch of small campaigns, and they are all causing the same issue together, right? So if you see Russia and China in particular, they very much, like, have a long term strategy. You even can see, like, how China is having the long term strategies in their government for years now. I look at the storming of the Capitol as an example, right? I don't think that was a purposeful campaign. Like, nobody in a foreign country sat down and said, this is what we're going to do. They said, let's destabilize and drive a rift. And a net benefit for them, second, third, fourth order effect was the Capitol was then stormed. And then we have a long tail of legal proceedings, of investigations, of news articles following that. And it was very little effort on their part, and a major impact. And I think that's actually what we see much more on the disinformation, misinformation campaign side, is we're seeing like this small expenditure of resource creating a large response. And that's actually much more effective for all these campaigns. I just don't see the, here's our 10 year strategy, we're going to follow this plan. Well, the thing is that we leave things, fortunately, in the countries with the freedom of speech, and with many freedoms. Russia, China, and other countries that are involved in this, they don't have this freedom. And they know that it's much easier to rule the citizens, and they are basically not having any freedoms. So they, based on this, you can assume that they rather have the strategy in this sense, right? And they know how to kind of handle that. And like, just adding on this, because I'm thinking it's what you said, we're sitting in DEF CON, right? And indeed, you have the power to make this change as well. Because when we've been doing research in Poland about the attitudes of Poles towards the European Union, we've seen one thing, there's 80% of Poles saying, yes, I'm for the European Union. And then you go into the internet and you do the social listening, and you see that 80% of comments are fake or negative. And that's the thing. Most of the internet is flooded by lies, disinformation, misinformation. And people that are on this side, believing in conspiracy theories, they're super passionate. While people that are kind of like on the value side, they're less passionate, because it's not that effective. So I would love to see as well, more affection and passion, actually to change this information space in this sense. Yep. Let's go back to our crazy uncles for a second here. Anecdotally, what I've found about my crazy uncles is that they tend to surround themselves with a common group of people who share in their similar beliefs. And no matter how much of a subject matter expert I am in some given area that they want to talk to me about, I'm not part of that group. Thus, my opinion and the things I try to share with them are automatically discounted, and they won't listen. So my question ultimately is, how do you break through to those type of people and help prevent them from further spreading the misinformation that they're already following? Thank you. So I might have a piece of that, right? It used to be before social media, it was very hard for people with extreme beliefs to be able to connect with each other, right? So man, I don't want to use reductive language, but someone in the village believes something that is obviously not true. But now all the villages are connected, and they can have a community where they can feed and grow, right? So is that person reachable? Maybe. Can you ask them, like, first, never insult someone's intelligence. Never be like, you're stupid, you're dumb. How can you believe that? That's ridiculous. Instead, hey, I'm sincerely concerned about what you're talking about. Can you walk me through your evidence, right? And maybe if you're looking at source material together, and you're like, hey, that doesn't add up. Maybe your premise is still correct, but let's look at the next piece. Maybe, maybe once you... that's not true, that's not true, that's not true. Maybe they'll start to backpedal, but I'm not sure. Yeah, I think another piece of that is, and you watched this over COVID too, we relied much more on the virtual space to connect us, which allowed us to selectively choose who entered into those spaces. I think the hyper-connectivity just of the virtual spaces we have available to us drives us that direction as well. It used to be you got together at a family reunion, or you got together with friends and family, and there was a diverse mix just naturally because of proximal contact. Now you can seek your cohort out across the globe. Like, you can find the exact person like you who has the same beliefs in Africa right now, if you wish. And so that helps reinforce your ideology, and it's harder for others to break into that. And I think that there's a responsibility that we see from the community side to ensure that we're inviting those and including groups so that we can diversify that opinion. We can start to break some of those like social media and cohort bubbles, because that's actually, that's one of the easiest things to target is just like, feed a message into this group and they will amplify it. Can I throw one more thing real quick? So sometimes the point isn't necessarily convincing that one uncle sometimes the point is, hey, what you're saying is not correct. Here's the reason why here's the sources when like racism or sexism, you know, the idea of locker talk, like, someone says something inappropriate in your presence. If you're not standing up to that, then other people are tacitly going along with it, right? You're presenting an alternative point of view that says that's not correct. This is the truth. Here's my sources. So you can reach other people, even if you can't reach them. You know how I try to, when I'm talking with people, right? Because that's your question, right? It's not, it's less of the internet. It's more like, okay, my aunt is telling me that. And sometimes it's very difficult because it's, it's pushing my emotions as well, right? So first of all, I need to, and I had a lot of situations like my friend was telling me like, being in Poland, having a lot of Ukrainian refugees, they were like, my friend was coming and saying like, oh, those Ukrainians are so bad because of this, this, this. And I was like, taking my emotions and trying to understand what happened. And what happened was that he met one person that was bad. So then I was like, trying to discuss that it's happening everywhere, right? That every single nation has good people and bad people. And kind of discussing in from this emotions and not also talking like over him, like saying like, it's not right, it's true. But we're like, where is coming from? And you know, like, I, I work with this. And I've seen, for example, that those are the narratives that are being spread, for example, by Russia, right? One of the most actually, the kind of the strongest messages that I've seen at the beginning of the war of the Russian invasion to Ukraine in Poland, where there was a bunch of emotions. I mean, we've been all like kind of helping, supporting and like being emotional. There was, and there was a lot of fear, bunch of fear, right? There were those posts, post-its that were coming all over Warsaw, saying Putin wants you to be afraid. And that's something that's also like very speaking to you. So it's sometimes it's not about responding and arguing, but rather trying to find the ground and trying to see why this person is believing in what is he or she is believing. It's about coming from a place of empathy and respect. As you say, you're not going to get anywhere if you're just telling somebody they're stupid. I think we have time maybe for two more questions. Yep. And we'll come over here. Yeah, go ahead. I think we all agree that this is a very difficult situation to find a solution to. Do you have any prime examples of what you thought was a potential good solution that has backfired and you recommend that we do not attempt to do in our lives? That's interesting. So a solution that might have been well intended, but backfired. Joe, you got? I think I think we could start very simply with just using the same platforms that we trust with our communications to help govern the truthfulness of a message. I think I think that's a very slippery slope because their political ideologies, their corporate ideologies, their business ideologies are wrapped around. I mean, it's the fox in the house. And so we've seen, oh, well, that's that's a false story. And then they remove it. They remove the user. And then later, oh, no, actually, that was there's some partial truth to that. And we're really sorry. We didn't mean to, like, promulgate or propagate that. So I think, again, we need to think about the regulations and the policies around how we use these kind of critical communications paths so that we do have trust and integrity and availability of information so that we can validate the authenticity rather than relying on someone else to do it, rather than relying on a company to do it. It's fact checking better than fact checking. So like, as I told you what happened with the QAnon, also another thing, our brain usually don't read or see no. So if we're doing the fact check, it's not true that we're amplifying this message as well. We need to be very, very careful of how we counterfeit the narratives. It's a difficult one. Yeah, Mike? This isn't awkward at all. So we've seen multiple... if you've ever met an election official, they want to talk to you. They want to answer your questions universally from my experience, right? If you have concerns, they want to talk to you about it. We've seen multiple instances where people are operating not in good faith, and they're doing ambush guerrilla style journalism, just looking for a soundbite, right? So they're trying to trick them into saying something remotely that they can misinterpret. So we're having to advise our elected officials when you're in person. For example, don't be alone, necessarily. If you can have someone else with you, have a buddy system. And that buddy can help you be like, hey, this conversation, it's going nowhere. It's time to disengage. Yes. This lady here has a question over on this. Oh, one more and then one more. So we'll make it quick. I'll try to be quick. Full disclosure, I work with Michael. Michael, I know that in Arizona, we've done a lot of... we've had a lot of discussions about sort of inoculating the public against MDM before it happens, helping them learn how to understand that, you know, MDM is out there and do their own research and things like that. We've also done a lot of tabletop exercises to kind of figure out what maybe might occur. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about that. But more than that, I'd love to know from the other panelists, coming at it from that angle, right, rather than catching up with the MDM after it's occurred, our preemptive strikes, what ideas do you have for that? I'll go ahead and start on the... what we've seen a lot of success with is, you know, we spent a lot of time in some areas, focused on crafting a message to counter a narrative, or to respond to a narrative. And we were always late to the game, and the information had already taken hold, it had already spread, it was now... it had now morphed into something completely different. And it was so hard to play catch up. So what we started doing was offering out kind of a preemptive offensive kind of our own information campaigns. And we found that as long as the information was useful and pertinent, and easy to digest, it would often supplant or at least decrease the volatility of some of that mis- or disinformation that others were receiving. So it is an effort. And if you have time to do that, and you have the resources to do that, that's a wonderful way to combat it. But you also have to figure out your cohort, how to target them, because some people read Fox News, some people read CNN. Are you hitting the right media platform? Are you hitting the right message? Are you using the right words? And so that takes a lot of research, a lot of purpose, a lot of intent. And really, like the social media companies are designed for that. The government is not equipped to do that very well. We see that often. Yeah, we do a very similar thing exactly, like doing a research and then like kind of building the campaign that it's based rather on the emotions and the grounds of the disinformation narrated this already there. But I also believe that we basically need to more invest in this positive vision building communication, right? Because very often, as I said, it's the grounds of disinformation, it's us versus them, it's the lack of security. So if we give those information kind of like giving more of the security, but of course, it can't be only communication, it needs to go with the systematic change and actually giving the security to people as well. That's how we can better do it, right? So it's like a very groundbreaking. So, oh, it's back. Awesome. So I assure you, me and my peers, we're doing what we can, but there are people that will not listen to us because we are government. We need you. You are the Calvary. For real, you have to do your part. Just like two talks ago with Kendall, the idea of being a citizen, it takes work. You need to participate. Next year is going to be nuts for MDM. There's no reason it shouldn't be. The advent and explosion of AI and generative language models, that's going to be used to create incredibly high quality synthetic content. About to hit the point where you really, really, really cannot trust anything on the internet is real. You're going to see videos, you're going to hear audio with voice cloning. If you go to, if you're familiar with twitch.tv, there's like a Trump or Biden 2024 debate that's constantly going between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. And the voices are perfect. The video is not perfect yet, but there's no reason it won't be 10 times better soon. So you need to talk to your friends, your family, your community, show them deepfakes, show them synthetic content, and get all your friends and family to realize something is eliciting this huge emotional response in you. Are you sure that it's real? Because it very much might not be real. We are over time. Be aware with yourself, because I'm going to just tell you, we have elections in two months, and in Poland, it's already crazy with this information. So really coming back to yourself. We are over time, but very quickly. So my question is kind of a variant of hers. Can you guys hear me? Yeah. It's about how you can be proactive in fostering the kind of discussion that you guys are talking about, the empathetic, in-depth, fact-check discussion. It seems like the nature of online communication prevents that, right? Echo chambers just happen. I don't think anyone creates them. We don't want to type a paragraph and we don't want to read a paragraph from someone else. So do you have any thoughts on how you would design an online communication platform that would foster the kind of in-depth discussion that you guys are talking about? All right. Anybody, any ideas? Again, to start out, I think we have a lot of options in front of us, but we don't have the policy to govern or to guide kind of the framework necessary to create that authenticity and that assuredness that we need in those platforms. I think that's the biggest hurdle that we see. One of the things, and this gets a little bit off topic from the digital realm, but I think a lot of us are experiencing, especially in online forums, interactions where we are waiting for the other person to finish so we can make our point. And a lot of times we don't actually listen to one another. And I've had a ton of hobbies in my life and I will pick them up and put them down because I have something better to do. And if you think about that type of community that you can create around people who have diverse opinions from you, if you show them that you're human and not just a soundbite and that they're just waiting for their time for you to finish so they can make their point, that does create a little bit more context, a little bit more identity, a little bit more appreciation and compassion. So maybe instead of trying to make your point or change their mind, maybe it's just as simple as have a conversation, say, hi, go grab a cup of coffee. I know it sounds simple, but I think that's where we actually see some of the best resistance to information operations is when there is a community around one another and the society rather than around the soundbite that I need to get out. Fully agreed. Community building is very, very important. There's a lot of amazing examples that already happened or are happening in terms of the projects, right? So, for example, what different media outlets in Europe have done before the European Parliament elections in 2019, they did this project where they invited people from all over Europe, like each of the country media outlet, they invited people with the different views. And what they did then, they connect the couples, the couples that were the most different. And they made it to sit together and dialogue and discuss. And I would love to have a platform like this, because like what is happening indeed is because of the algorithms and all of the system that the platforms are using, the echo chambers are happening and we have more and more polarization. So, we need to build more of the systems where the money will be flowing into community building instead of polarization. All right, unless you have last word to you, Mike. I'll be very brief. You know, when you're having a conversation with someone else, neither you are probably 100% true, and the outcome that is most ideal is that you both move towards the truth closer together. So, jeez, I mean, if I knew exactly how to make the platform, I'd be a billionaire or... Well, we need to get people on this platform first. Thank you very much, guys, for your time. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. So, please join me again in thanking Dani and our panelists for closing out the Voting Village speaking track under suboptimal sound conditions. So, thanks so much. By the way, you sound great on the headphones. Oh, good. Perfect. Thank you."
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