start	end	text
7550	12170	Well, it's great to be here. I haven't been back to the Voting Village since 2019,
12170	15410	and nothing at all has happened since then.
16570	22630	All right, so keynote panel today, timely as ever for Voting Village issues,
22630	26410	but this one in particular, you know, right around the corner we have 2024,
26410	31110	and it's kind of like the global year of federal or national elections.
31230	34570	Yes, the U.S. has an election, but in addition to that,
34570	40090	we have Mexico, Egypt, Taiwan, that might be interesting,
40090	44670	India, Moldova, which has had a little bit of friction lately with Russia,
44670	46790	and oh yeah, Russia has an election too.
47110	51190	So what we're going to do today is with our panelists is we're going to cover
51390	56770	a global perspective on elections, the various threats that we see,
56770	60330	and then what are some of the solutions or things we need to keep an eye out for.
60330	62790	So this is not just going to be a technical conversation,
62790	64770	because as we've seen over the last several years,
64770	67590	threats to election are not just technical in nature.
67630	71250	We also have, of course, the continuing and growing problem
71250	74410	of information disorder, information decay.
74410	76210	And so we'll jump into that.
76610	80970	All right, so we'll go on for 30-40 minutes here,
80970	87330	and then we'll open up for some questions that I will hope are respectful.
87550	89170	We'll see how that goes.
89410	92290	You're always respectful here at Voting Village, so we'll be good.
92290	94030	All right, Maja, let's start with you.
94190	95930	You spend a lot of time in Europe lately,
95930	101770	looking at the impact of disinformation on democracy and electoral processes.
102010	105650	Understanding that the group here may be US-biased,
105650	109270	but we obviously have various perspectives here.
109270	113430	Can you give us your view on threats to elections in Europe?
113650	116050	Sure, I think it's a pleasure being here.
116050	118750	I have a question, like, who's from Europe in here?
118870	119730	Raise your hand.
119830	121010	There we go.
121010	121970	Great.
123130	125890	So we know that we share the same concerns,
125890	131310	and indeed 2024 is a big one, and we also have the European elections.
131490	133790	So it's going to be fun.
133790	137110	And also Belarus is on the elections, and I'm coming from Poland,
137110	139210	so we're actually starting earlier,
139210	143790	and we have the parliamentary elections coming up just on the 15th of October.
144210	147570	And I think, like, what is the difference
147570	151730	that you need to understand in between European and the US elections
151730	154630	is that we rather don't have e-voting, right?
154630	157810	The only country in Europe that has it is Estonia.
158290	162550	And there were a few trials and check-ups for other countries,
162550	164230	but it's not happening.
164230	168910	So, like, one of the concerns that you are having is not really our concern,
168910	171310	but how I'm looking at this information,
171310	173570	how I work with the Alliance for Europe,
174290	179730	we're seeing this information being spread by the operational influence of Russia,
179730	184790	but also internal actors to actually change the attitudes of peoples.
184910	190430	And that's how the new technologies are being deployed as well.
190510	194310	And what we're doing right now in Poland, for example, before the elections,
194310	197510	we're setting up the ISAC, Information Sharing Analysis Center,
197510	200410	to actually research that more and look at it more.
200410	205290	Because also, you know, it's a huge crowd in here of cyber security experts.
205490	211350	In the EU, in most of the countries, there's not that many experts on this matter.
211350	214970	And I think there's a need for more awareness as well,
214970	219530	because Poland is a bordering country with Ukraine.
219970	227090	Last year, we got around 10% of our society fluing from Ukraine, right?
227090	230150	Basically, we're a country of 40 million, 47,
230150	234830	like more than 4 million Ukrainians are right now in Poland.
234990	239670	And those are the narratives that are being deployed by the bad actors as well.
239670	244770	And it's super easy in this information to use, for example, us versus them narrative.
244770	248850	And just polarizing us, and I think that's a big issue in the US as well.
249110	255490	And those are the biggest concerns of looking at the elections in the EU,
255490	257870	and also of the governments.
257870	263310	Because something that you have in the US, it's still trust in the democracy.
263310	268070	In many countries in the EU, or a few countries in the EU, including mine,
268070	270110	sometimes it's democracy or the rule of law
270110	273670	as being targeted by also populistic governments.
274030	275490	And that's a challenge.
275770	282150	So your takeaway is that because technology is not as prevalent in European elections,
282150	286090	save for Estonia, which sidebar here,
286670	289950	President Ilves would give me grief every now and then
289950	293730	when we were talking about some of the issues we had post-2016 here in the US,
293730	297830	the Russians going after voter registration databases.
297830	300350	And he was constantly saying, you just need to go to mobile voting.
300350	301810	You just need to go to mobile voting.
301810	304430	And I'm trying to see Matt in the back. There he is.
304470	305070	Yeah.
306110	310930	And then a year after that, he first really pushed me on that.
310930	316870	With their national ID database and the compromise of that system.
316870	323650	So I think it shows that even with those more advanced technologies that are in play in Estonia,
323650	326530	they obviously have some challenges as well.
326550	330110	Also want to highlight, though we're not talking about the EU anymore,
330110	334250	the UK recently with their database breach,
334250	336590	which I don't know if you want to comment on that at all,
336590	340630	but I think we're still kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop there.
340630	345910	Who that threat actor might be and really what was the risk?
346450	350210	Yeah, if you look actually what was happening since 2015,
350210	353190	because I would say not 2016 was a year, but in 2015,
353190	355510	I was working for the previous president of Poland.
355610	359310	And that was the first time when I kind of looked at disinformation,
359310	365610	targeted the elections, because there was a year also of the big migration crisis.
365610	370010	And those are the deploys and how Russia, especially in the EU,
370010	374030	but also other countries are really getting into the system.
374030	379090	And the election integrity right now is not only happening during the elections itself.
379090	382310	Election days of voting is not only happening during the campaign,
382310	385570	but it's actually happening during the whole electoral cycle.
385570	387690	And that's a big threat.
387690	389750	And that's also the terms of the UK, right?
389750	393270	If you look at what happened with the UK, for example, with the Brexit,
393810	399530	we're seeing very similar processes happening right now in Poland or even in Germany.
400050	402770	There are different people coming over.
402770	410770	And very, very often, the voting is being built on what you believe in, what you trust.
410770	414750	And if you don't trust your state, your country, your government,
415270	419710	or if you just don't trust other people that are out there,
419710	422370	that's when the wrong thing is happening, right?
422370	428030	And we are having a lot of darknet research that we're doing as well.
428030	433050	There are narratives deployed, for example, in Poland,
433050	435530	saying that Ukrainians will take over Poland.
435530	437610	And that was pretty much happening in the UK as well,
437610	441070	saying that the migrants from the other EU countries,
441070	443370	including Poles, were taking over the UK.
443370	447850	And there was no specific cyber security measures as well on it.
448010	451050	So I want to come back to the threat actor piece in a minute.
451050	455770	But what we've already talked a lot about today is Russia,
455770	457270	Russia as the influence actor.
457270	463390	I kind of see Russia as the Leroy Jenkins of election interference and election influence.
463390	467390	They're very noisy, very, very corruptive.
467390	471750	On the other hand, I think we're seeing an emergence of China in this space,
471750	473450	particularly what happened last year,
473450	476250	at least what was announced earlier this year and last year,
476250	483310	with Chinese government officials bribing and paying off Canadian provincial officials.
483310	484690	And I think we're going to see more of that.
484690	488730	We see a good chunk of that here in the United States at the local level,
489250	493190	not quite at the dog catcher races, but local commission.
493190	495030	We are seeing influence there.
495030	498550	And I am interested in having talked to some French officials,
498550	506890	what that level of corruption and disinformation and influence the Chinese actors are copying.
506890	510930	And I've heard some of the French intelligence officials call it
510930	514370	the Russification of Chinese influence operations.
514370	516070	We'll come back to that in just a minute.
516070	520810	All right, Kendall, so you have spent some time working with the Germans and over there.
520810	527030	And the Germans, I think this year, have what, four of the 16 federal states have their elections.
527310	530070	So why don't you tell us a little bit about what you see in Germany,
530070	532730	because whether they're the bellwether,
532730	537930	I think France tends to be kind of the European bellwether for European influence,
537930	542050	but we have seen activity in and around Germany.
542050	544870	And so talk to us a little bit about what you're seeing there
544870	547650	and how some of the social issues come to play,
547650	551930	national identity and how that manifests in information influence operations.
551930	552630	Yeah, thanks so much.
552630	557850	I mean, we're seeing some of the same issues that I think we've been talking about here today.
557850	559750	The biggest one being disinformation.
560050	563510	One of the fascinating kind of discoveries that I,
563510	565930	you know, in my discussions with them this year,
565930	567670	kind of stumbled upon was, you know,
567670	570630	electronic voting is largely unconstitutional there.
570630	574990	And reason being, because they found that because you cannot,
574990	580030	in their opinion, have meaningful discussions and meaningful public scrutiny
580030	585290	on the validity of electronic voting, they've made it unconstitutional, right?
585290	589590	So they really do rely on a paper-based system, which is great.
589590	591150	We, you know, we love that.
591170	596850	But it also changes how targeted the disinformation is, right?
596850	599090	So here, what we're seeing in terms of threat,
599090	600950	it's not so much on the voting machines, right?
600950	602450	Because we don't really have them.
602450	609970	It's more on the mechanisms used to make public political figures' viewpoints.
609970	613090	So online campaigning, that type of thing.
613090	619830	And those are really the kind of states, like the foundational systems that we're seeing,
619830	623090	that are actually being targeted in terms of the threat.
623090	626950	So doing things like infiltrating a campaign's website,
626950	629430	changing the information that is there,
629430	635350	flooding the actual discussion processes in terms of just overloading the system.
635350	636750	We're seeing things like that.
636750	640410	And when we start talking about what that does for national identity,
640410	643110	one of the discussions that we spent a lot of time on
643110	648010	was just sort of Germany's approach to having that national identity.
648010	652830	And what does it mean to be patriotic and be German, right?
652830	656770	Given Germany's past, a lot of individuals there really struggle with that.
656770	658530	One of the questions we ask is whether or not
658530	662210	they feel like they want to identify more as being German citizens
662210	665890	versus identifying more as being members of the EU.
665890	670410	And a lot of that fluctuates depending on what's going on in the time.
670410	674550	But something that I believe that they're really working earnestly on
674550	679630	is trying to strike that balance of how to develop that level of patriotism
679630	685410	and pro-German viewpoint without really feeling like you still have to step on eggshells.
685410	688390	I think that's very difficult for a nation.
688470	692430	And I also think that it heavily impacts young people
692430	697350	in the sense of how they decide to go about getting involved in the political process.
697510	703530	If it's hard to be patriotic, if it's hard to really be pro-Germany,
703530	705530	what do you tell your kids?
705550	709390	How do you motivate the younger generation to really step up to the plate
709390	711890	and fight for what they believe in?
711890	716090	I think that's what we're going to see play out over the next couple of years,
716090	720310	is how disinformation is being targeted towards not just younger people,
720310	724790	but the individuals running for office and the issues that they really stand for.
725310	729910	I'd like to see how that ends up playing out over the next couple of years.
730370	733250	Again, when we talk about the technology used,
733250	737210	one of the things we have to remember is Germany is very risk-averse.
737390	741170	Compared to the United States, they are risk-first, innovation-second.
741170	745350	Obviously, here in the States, it's very innovation-focused, risk-second.
745350	749730	They struggle very much with striking that balance.
749730	753230	One of the conversations we had when we were at the German Bundestag was,
753230	755450	they still use fax machines.
756050	759430	Phasing those types of systems out in a meaningful way
759430	763590	that encourages those individuals to have discussions and still feel safe
763590	766990	and build upon some of the values that they find important,
766990	771150	I think is going to be a part of that ongoing national discussion.
771170	778870	Under that, how do you situate yourself within that framework as members of the European Union?
778870	780150	Can I just step in?
780150	780610	Yeah, please.
780670	782630	I encourage that, in fact.
782630	783690	Thank you, perfect.
783690	788410	On the patriotic side, I love actually how Kat came in here and said,
788930	792850	you're here, you're patriots, and you're here to support your country, right?
792850	795610	That's something that would never happen in Europe.
795670	799690	And that's a challenge that we're having, and I guess it's quite a lot of things
799690	803170	that happened in Europe already might happen in here as well.
803170	809110	Because what happened with the patriotism is that the far right took this for themselves, right?
809110	813470	And that's why the stratcom and the counter-narratives are super important as well.
813470	818510	If we look at the information space, it's basically floated by this information.
818510	822350	It's basically put with those narratives, and we are just counterfeiting it.
822350	824990	We are just reacting to it.
824990	827330	And we need to bring those narratives.
827330	828570	And we are patriots.
828570	832410	I'm Polish and I'm patriot, but I'm not the far right, you know?
833010	836930	So I want to come back to some of those solutions in a minute,
836930	839770	but let's pull it back here to the United States.
840410	846830	Bryson, in addition to being a unicorn, you have also been advising CISA and other folks
846830	849610	for several years on election security issues.
849670	852770	So, you know, we obviously have a more complicated,
852770	856030	technologically integrated system of elections here.
856030	862370	We are not Estonia, but we do use machines for casting counting of votes.
862370	868190	So can you talk to us a little bit about what you see on the edge of the 2024 election?
868190	872450	What are those threats that you're seeing, you're worried about,
872450	875030	and how do you think these things are going to play out?
876010	878390	So it's Bryson and three lawyers.
878950	881250	I think I represent the average voter.
883530	888670	90% of what I would say, Matt much better phrased it up front
888670	890550	as part of the introduction to the voting village.
890550	893630	So I highly encourage you to continue to reference that,
893630	895950	because I will do a poor imitation at best.
897970	903050	One of the first things that when I was working with Chris back in 2020,
903050	907250	was I saw the issue of there's two aspects here, right?
907250	911690	There's attacking the tech, and then there's attacking the people.
912070	913510	And the two go together.
914030	917110	And one of the first things that I saw as a challenge for us is,
917110	923550	we knew in 2020 paper ballots were going to be more of what was going to be a part of that process.
923610	926650	And what we didn't know is how long that was going to take.
927150	931770	You might be surprised, Americans do not have a long attention span.
933810	937730	Therefore, we need results to come in quickly.
937730	940730	And that's a system that is not going to guarantee quick results.
940730	941410	So what, right?
941410	944590	At the end of the day, we're more confident we're going to be secure.
944590	946930	However, because of that attention span,
946930	950950	that leaves an opportunity for a narrative to be constructed.
950950	953090	That is a void that could be filled.
953130	959930	And so my view is since 2016, the US government had been doing a lot of work on this.
959930	963090	It's first thing worth noting, here in the United States,
963090	966810	the federal government does not directly run elections.
967250	971310	There are around 9,000 jurisdictions all at the community level,
971310	974850	run by a 75-year-old grandmother named Eleanor.
975510	977630	That's who runs your elections.
977630	978310	Can I jump in?
978310	979110	You absolutely can.
979110	983090	All right, who do we have here that's a state or local election official?
983090	984730	I know some of the Maricopa guys are here.
984730	987830	All right, let's give them a round of applause.
991830	1001210	So the hell these folks have been through over the last several years is absolutely unpatriotic.
1001790	1007590	And my concern, and I said this on a show the other day,
1007590	1013210	is that this is effectively manifesting in voter suppression of another type.
1013210	1017850	Because we have election officials that are getting drummed out of the workforce.
1017850	1025690	We have historical levels of openings and open headcount, FTEs, in these roles.
1025690	1030510	And so what does that mean when you have fewer people to man the polls, to work the polls?
1031010	1034070	You're not going to have as many polls open.
1034070	1037690	You're not going to have as many opportunities to participate in democracy.
1037690	1041030	So I personally find one of the biggest threats right now
1041030	1047570	is the constant harassment of election officials.
1047570	1054070	There's kind of a knock-on effect here that we are seeing some folks that are filling these
1054070	1062050	positions. Many of them are of the right inclination and motivation, incentives to take those jobs.
1062050	1069230	Others are not. And we are now seeing, I think, a greater level of insider risk to elections
1069230	1073590	from those that may be pursuing that role for ideological purposes.
1073590	1084290	You know, I always felt that the technical issues around elections and election security,
1084650	1086730	it was simply an engineering problem.
1087430	1092390	You address the vulnerabilities. You upgrade systems.
1092950	1095510	They're imminently fixable.
1095510	1102790	But all these other human-driven issues are much, much harder and take a broader set of people.
1102790	1106650	It's not about how much money the federal government can throw in grant dollars
1106650	1110550	and how quickly you can put it on contract at the state or local level.
1110710	1113930	We have a range of challenges here.
1114030	1116690	I'll let Bryson finish before I interrupt him again.
1117050	1120510	Again, I just want to say thank you to those state and local folks that are out there every day
1121810	1125150	ensuring that our democracy, that we're able to vote.
1125150	1128550	This thing, this project, this experiment keeps going forward.
1128950	1129210	Back to you.
1129210	1130610	To summarize, right?
1130610	1132750	This ties to 2024.
1133050	1135210	The threat is from within.
1135430	1138650	The system is being attacked from within.
1138870	1144050	And that sounds abstract, except it is people.
1144050	1145690	And I'm pointing because you raised your hand, right?
1145690	1146870	It is people.
1146870	1148850	They are coming to their houses.
1149010	1150970	They're hunting them down.
1151050	1152360	It is personal.
1152810	1154830	Can you imagine being in that situation?
1154830	1158490	I mean, it's like out of a science fiction novel where it sounds, again,
1158490	1161170	they're being drummed out like you lost a job.
1161690	1166910	They're being harassed at a personal level and their family is being harassed at a personal level.
1167070	1168190	And here's the thing.
1169690	1173410	Dots are dots, but when there are a lot of them that draw a line, that's a pattern.
1174730	1178110	The system is being attacked from within by a system.
1178810	1182970	There is money being poured into organizing and attacking this.
1182970	1184690	And I know you're seeing that in Europe too.
1184690	1187010	This is part of what you and I were talking about beforehand.
1187010	1190670	There is literally forces aligned that are coming after this.
1190670	1192030	I made the joke to her before.
1192030	1195210	I was like, do you remember when liberal democracy wasn't a question?
1197290	1200030	That's no longer an assumption you can make.
1200210	1202230	There are people that each of you know.
1202230	1203490	I guarantee you that you know.
1203490	1205610	You have your racist aunt on Facebook.
1205610	1207330	That's why you don't go to Facebook anymore.
1207370	1210070	They don't believe in the system anymore.
1211450	1214530	One other thing, since we're also giving recognition and applause, right?
1214530	1216630	I worked with Chris in 2020.
1216690	1218190	And we tried really hard.
1218310	1220990	I highly recommend pointing to the panel I pulled together.
1220990	1225170	It was the first multiple federal agency panel that had ever come together and publicly talked
1225170	1227690	about everything they've been doing since 2016.
1227790	1233170	It was DEF CON Voting Village 2020, NSA, Cyber Command, State Department, Election Assistance
1233170	1235450	Commission, CISA, and FBI.
1235850	1236750	Check it out.
1236750	1243030	But the thing I want to really go here is, it is easy to stand up on a stage and say
1243030	1243810	what you would do.
1244550	1248150	It is much harder when you're actually in that system.
1248810	1252890	Chris was a political appointee in 2020 in the Trump administration.
1253250	1258930	And he not only carried with integrity, he showed character and courage to call it out.
1259030	1261150	And I think that also deserves a round of applause.
1261150	1263010	You cannot be recognized enough for that.
1268020	1268900	Thank you.
1268900	1272300	No, and just on that too, because, I mean, you went through a lot.
1272300	1273180	I mean, I was there.
1273180	1274560	I lived right next to him.
1274560	1277880	And I cannot tell you the personal cost there was at that time.
1278300	1279260	That is courage.
1279260	1280560	I'm an army officer, okay?
1280560	1281400	I've been shot at.
1281400	1283180	I have seen things around this world.
1283180	1288020	That is easier than to stand up against the whole system like you did.
1288020	1290600	Showing up with a bottle of Yellow Spot helped.
1291100	1293280	That was much appreciated.
1294340	1299860	So let me kind of, as a moderator, take a little bit of personal privilege here and
1299860	1302860	give you a bit of my view of what we're looking at in 2024.
1303280	1304860	I think you're absolutely right.
1304860	1313280	I think there is a significant threat of the caller is inside the house issue.
1313280	1315000	And I'll come back to that in just a second.
1315000	1320800	But I continue to think that we have significant and grave threats from foreign actors.
1321060	1323580	I look at motivations.
1323580	1327920	And so this is where strategic intelligence and threat modeling comes in.
1328420	1331880	We know that there are systems that have vulnerabilities out there.
1331880	1334840	The existence of a vulnerability doesn't mean it's been exploited or someone
1334840	1336350	has the capability, of course.
1336720	1344700	But I look at what Putin is thinking right now about his continued war in Ukraine.
1344800	1353720	And how one of the main things, in addition, beyond the Ukrainians' resilience and ability
1353720	1358140	to defend themselves, is the West's continued support of Ukraine.
1358140	1362260	And might, if there's a different someone in the White House,
1362260	1365980	might they pull back that support and that aid?
1365980	1370840	And how would that affect Russia's ability?
1370840	1372500	So what does that mean?
1372500	1374180	And how might they act on that?
1374180	1380520	Might we see more of the continued drumbeat of disinformation that we've seen since the
1380520	1386540	2014 post-Maidan events in Ukraine?
1386540	1391300	We also could see, I think, more of that technical mischief.
1391300	1395460	And I'm not one of those that is...
1396640	1404920	I still think that it is a significant red line to get into an actual process and affect
1404920	1407600	the casting, counting, and certification of the votes.
1407600	1413140	But getting in and mucking up election night reporting to cause panic and chaos so that
1413140	1417880	conspiracy theories spin out of control about late night dumps or whatever they call it.
1417880	1420300	Those are the things that I continue to worry about.
1420300	1421500	Not just from the Russians.
1421500	1425580	I think the Chinese similarly now have capabilities.
1425580	1426600	They have motivations.
1426600	1432580	I think with President Xi's continued eyes towards Taiwan and some of the saber rattling
1432580	1435620	that we're hearing with friction with the West.
1435620	1440420	And then if you look at the Volt typhoon reporting out of Microsoft about pre-positioning for
1440420	1446640	conflict, I think the natural extension of that is that they may have the ability or
1446640	1450720	desire to get into our democratic processes.
1450720	1451680	All right, bringing it back home.
1451680	1453460	And I'll just interject real quickly.
1453460	1458580	You don't have to hack a system to undermine confidence in the system.
1458820	1462400	You don't have to technically compromise something.
1462400	1466280	All you have to do is get people to not believe what it is.
1467180	1469580	That's the threat beyond the technical piece, right?
1469580	1471000	We have vulnerabilities.
1471000	1474300	I mean, it is amusing having worked with the voting bills for a long time where it was
1474300	1478680	us constantly hammering the voting machine manufacturers.
1478940	1482160	And now it's like we're kind of on their side, even though there's still problems,
1482160	1484780	because there's this bigger risk we're all facing.
1484800	1485660	Sorry, Kendall.
1485660	1486380	Yeah, go ahead.
1486380	1492340	So if you don't mind, I want to take a bit of a different approach and maybe ask a question.
1492400	1495680	Bryson, when I hear you talk, when I hear Chris talk, when I hear you talk,
1495680	1498160	like you hear so much passion, right?
1498160	1503880	And I think when we start talking about democracy and how to protect it and how to examine the
1503880	1508720	threats and how to promulgate solutions to it, a lot of it has to do with how do you get people
1508720	1509620	to care?
1509800	1513920	And I think one of the interesting questions that I ask when we're examining different
1513920	1519080	cultures and different nations and how they go about their election process is, what are
1519080	1522060	the tools used to sort of protect those systems?
1522120	1527680	And how do you educate, again, the people, younger generations who are going to matriculate
1527680	1535100	and become positive members of those societies to care and take democracy into their own
1535100	1540460	hands and say, you know what, dammit, I'm going to work at the polls and this is my
1540460	1541480	country too.
1541480	1543440	And it is up to me to protect it.
1543680	1546540	And just generationally, we see so much differences there.
1546540	1549960	And I would just love to know a little bit more about what it is that kind of keeps you
1549960	1550480	going.
1550480	1556560	And if it was that civics class that so many of you guys had in a different lens than what
1556560	1557300	I had.
1561140	1563360	So... this is a complicated question.
1563360	1564140	I've studied...
1564140	1564880	Didn't mean to throw that.
1564880	1565360	No, no, no.
1565360	1566660	It's a good question.
1567840	1569180	I've taken a look at this.
1569180	1573140	And I don't think I'm going to meet your expectations for an answer here.
1573380	1577960	But with the Aspen Institute and the Commission on Information Disorder, we looked in part
1577960	1578480	at this.
1578480	1585620	And I think one of the common observations is that civics education and opportunities
1585620	1589900	to engage civically have eroded over the last couple decades.
1589900	1596820	And so you may not have the social studies and civics education in K through 12 that
1596820	1602460	give you the foundational understanding of how the United States came about and what
1602460	1606620	it took to get to this current form of liberal democracy.
1606620	1613320	And I think a reintroduction of that could certainly, I think, go some degree towards
1613320	1615980	achieving that.
1616240	1617200	Yeah.
1617480	1620480	Happy to get to both of you, actually.
1620480	1622760	Because I'm super passionate about it.
1622760	1625220	And indeed, it's very important to me.
1625220	1625820	And why?
1625820	1627060	Because I feel it here.
1627480	1631840	And if we think about new technology, if we think about this information, but mostly
1631840	1635980	if we think about our future, it's coming to us here.
1636260	1641840	And one of the strongest emotions that is being deployed by the bad actors, whether
1641840	1646400	they are the foreign actors or the internal ones, is fear.
1646680	1650020	We are in fear for the past few years.
1650020	1651340	We had a pandemic.
1651500	1654120	You know, in Europe, we have a war in Ukraine.
1654340	1659460	We have right now AI as one of another emerging fears, which I believe that's actually taken
1659460	1660380	for good, right?
1660380	1660980	Yep.
1660980	1664220	And I want other emotions to see there.
1664220	1671500	Like, I want those young kids not to be afraid, but rather want to be passionate about their
1671500	1675340	future, about the EU, about the US, about our world.
1675460	1680400	And when we think about it, and if I may just go back on the China issue, right?
1680400	1685480	We're talking about EU and US and kind of like this dimension, there's Russia, but like
1685480	1688180	that's not the world we live anymore in.
1688180	1694140	And I think that we also need to realize that the global situation in the world is changing.
1694140	1696320	The global South is there.
1696320	1702320	It's emerging and it's heavily deployed by China and by Russia.
1702440	1707640	Africa right now, it's one of the biggest, you know, regions being deployed with this
1707640	1708440	information.
1708440	1712260	I've been in Kenya talking with the activists in there and the governments because they
1712260	1713920	just had elections last year.
1713920	1715760	And did you hear about the Tim Horta?
1717080	1722980	The Tim Horta, it's one of the biggest investigations that were made by the
1722980	1726360	more than 30 different media outlets.
1726360	1733160	And it's a company, Israeli company, that was offering the services for 1 million euros
1733160	1739060	to change the elections, then investigated more than 30 presidential elections all over
1739060	1739860	the world.
1739860	1745500	They said there also was happening in Europe, but they didn't have enough of the details
1745500	1747380	to tell which countries.
1747500	1749900	But that happened, right?
1749900	1755000	The guy like Jorge, that's how they named it, he's already in the first pages of Der
1755000	1756260	Spiegel and others.
1756260	1762600	But I mean, you know better than I do that it's super easy to just set up the bunch of
1762600	1765620	votes, accounts that are looking illegitimate.
1765620	1767360	And that's what the bad actors are doing.
1767360	1769500	And they're just giving the hashtags.
1769500	1770960	They're just giving those emotions.
1770960	1772520	They're giving the fears on us.
1772520	1774840	We're going into the Internet and we are afraid.
1775000	1779160	And that's why I'm here and why I'm doing all of that.
1779660	1781380	Bryson, do you want to chime in?
1782220	1785520	This country has a lot of issues, right?
1785820	1787500	You pick your axis.
1788280	1789820	I've been all over the world.
1789820	1793420	The quality of life here is still some of the best you will find anywhere.
1793700	1798880	Two and a half billion people on this planet don't have access to clean water even, right?
1798880	1801460	You want to talk about Maslow's hierarchy or worrying about things?
1801620	1807800	You, we as Americans, I say you because I actually did grow up here, don't worry about
1807800	1808600	those kinds of things.
1808600	1810420	The rest of the world does.
1810620	1814900	And so I'll say I actually, the opposite of the civics lesson, I saw the dark side.
1814960	1817120	I grew up in East Germany, the civic union.
1817940	1822840	You might remember them from your classes as not the beacons of freedom and personal
1823380	1824180	individualism.
1824580	1828680	And so I saw what humanity could be and what could do.
1829180	1834020	And that compelled me to join the army here in the United States because I wanted to be
1834160	1834660	a patriot.
1834660	1836840	I wanted to believe in a higher purpose.
1836840	1839400	Of course, the military has its own faults too, right?
1839400	1843360	But I'm just saying, I think we take it for granted what we have and what we're fighting
1843360	1844260	for.
1844440	1850660	And so that's my passion is my whole career has been a sense of service because I lived
1850660	1853080	and grew up where there was nothing.
1856010	1857390	Just dawn on me.
1857390	1861990	You are what the show The Americans was based on.
1861990	1863090	You're a sleep radio.
1864070	1865390	I've known you all this time.
1865390	1866290	You've been hiding it.
1866290	1869750	You can test me by pushing a cup of coffee off and I catch it immediately.
1870190	1874650	So let me kind of close out the current threat to release to 2024.
1874650	1876470	And like I said, bring it back home.
1876470	1880430	One of the things that I'm worried about is that there were lessons learned from 2020
1880430	1886350	efforts, observing foreign actors doing things, as well as information that's come across
1887190	1889950	and publicly available over the last couple of years.
1889950	1897870	I don't know if Alex is here, Halderman, but I think we may see some ideological lone wolf
1897870	1906010	type actor, hacktivist type person, look at something like Alex's report or other systems
1906010	1909530	and just cause a wobble in the machine.
1909730	1914130	Not actually try to change the outcome of an election or overturn anything, but just
1914130	1916230	say, see, look, I told you.
1916230	1917510	See, we told you.
1917510	1924770	Therefore, the entire system is not valid.
1924770	1925730	Invalid.
1925750	1931370	And those are the sorts of things I think are going to manifest into a thousand different
1931370	1933890	conspiracy theories that are going to spin out of control.
1933890	1941010	I will say, though, that there is one aspect of social media chaos that might actually
1941810	1947950	damp down or dampen some of these viral disinformation and conspiracy theories,
1947950	1958670	because they've seemingly kind of sorted out into very narrow ideological spectrums.
1958670	1964550	And you go to one platform because there are people there that share your beliefs.
1964550	1968270	And that's, I think, one of the biggest shame of what's happened, in my view, with Twitter
1968270	1972070	is how it is not that global public square anymore.
1972730	1977790	Now, what that means to me is that we may see conspiracy theories pop up that burn really
1977790	1983150	fast and really hot, but they don't have staying power because they just burn through the
1983150	1986070	population kind of like Ebola would.
1986470	1992710	And on the other hand, I am worried about TikTok as a very broad platform that can be
1992710	1997210	manipulated, not necessarily just intentionally by the Chinese, but by other actors that can
1997210	1997870	get on there.
1997870	2002810	That's where you could see a COVID-like disinformation or conspiracy theory, I think,
2002810	2008570	burn very broad and slowly and deeply and corruptively.
2008610	2010350	So those are the sorts of things that I'm worried about.
2010350	2010810	All right.
2010810	2014170	So now we're going to take a little bit of a leap forward.
2014170	2020930	And since, Maya, you broke the seal and talked about generative AI, in DC, at least, these
2020930	2023490	are a lot of the questions I'm getting from policymakers.
2024150	2029090	What, how should we think about the threat of generative AI in disinformation and other
2029090	2030590	means for the 2024 election?
2030590	2033290	So, Kendall, we'll start with you, and then we'll work our way down.
2034590	2037690	So trying to take the lawyer hat off, right?
2037690	2041650	Because one of the things I also do, I'm a cybersecurity and data privacy attorney at
2041750	2042850	a firm in Boston.
2043830	2050490	So part of where I see the issue is it eroding people's motivation to sort of question what
2050490	2051790	they're looking at.
2051790	2056430	We talked earlier about kind of getting people to care, getting people to understand the
2056430	2059130	institutions that they use to actually carry out the democracy.
2060050	2066830	And just my generation, personally, that relies heavily on chat GPT and that type of thing,
2067550	2073510	people are using it as a means to take certain shortcuts, which I think down the line, the
2073510	2078450	impact that it's going to have on critical thinking and actually kind of working through
2078450	2079710	some of these tougher issues.
2079710	2083110	I think we're going to see some problems in that space.
2083250	2087850	I think on the legal front, kind of putting the lawyer hat back on, you know, we saw a
2087850	2092490	big issue, I want to say a couple months ago, where you had an attorney that had an entire
2092490	2096770	brief written by chat GPT and did not look at the cases.
2096770	2098770	They were completely fictitious.
2098770	2100670	That was crazy.
2100670	2105650	And so sort of where I see the issues are just people kind of, again, getting information
2105650	2108210	just kind of handed to them without questioning it.
2108210	2113850	And sort of the second tier of analysis of here's what I'm getting.
2113850	2115690	Does it make sense?
2115770	2117730	And what is this based off of?
2117730	2120230	That's where I see the biggest issue, in my opinion.
2120230	2125330	I think when we get back to sort of talking about education a bit, you know, being trained
2125330	2130870	to think logically and question things is not something that comes as a foundational
2130870	2138930	part of today's education, unless you go and pursue engineering or a STEM field, or you
2138930	2140110	end up going to law school.
2140110	2143590	And I'm sure there's, you know, philosophy and some other disciplines will also have
2143590	2144170	that.
2144170	2148530	And I think that causes a very big problem because it makes it easier to divide people.
2148530	2153930	It makes it easier to convince you that what you're seeing is real and true and God's honest
2153930	2154870	truth.
2155010	2159310	And so those are those are some of the areas that I that I see problematic, you know, that
2159310	2161690	I see to be kind of problematic down the line.
2161690	2164830	I'm sure there's a host of others, but just that's that's right.
2164830	2169590	I would say my unique view would sort of kind of center on.
2169630	2171090	All right, Maya.
2171290	2175110	Yeah, I find, like, first of all, I'm a fan of AI.
2175110	2178890	I think that it really can do a lot of good things.
2179230	2180790	And that's the thing.
2180790	2188090	We need to start to make it good things and put a lot of money into actually deploying
2188090	2193490	AI to the level of the good tech instead of the bad tech, right?
2193490	2195990	Because that's the approach.
2195990	2198210	Which values are we putting it in?
2198490	2203470	If, as a lot of people are saying, right, AI right now, it's like our babies.
2203750	2209050	So if we're talking about education, that's how we need to educate it as well.
2209270	2214970	If we're programming and making an AI, we need to teach it our values.
2214970	2220830	So if we are a society with fear, we're going to build the AI with fear as well.
2220890	2222710	And that's not something we want to.
2223530	2224650	So that's one.
2224650	2228890	And the other one is the legislation and basically how we're looking at the future.
2229170	2232330	Like, I believe that one of the biggest challenges we face,
2232330	2236190	also on the political level, is that we are all the time reactive.
2236190	2238550	We are not thinking about the future, what can happen.
2238550	2240190	We are not building scenarios.
2240350	2241890	AI is nothing new.
2241890	2244650	We knew it's going to emerge and it's going to emerge farther.
2244650	2251750	But only how we are working on it is like looking at how it looks like right now.
2251750	2255630	I would like to have a group of experts, basically,
2255630	2259050	sitting together and thinking of what we can do in the future,
2259050	2261710	how we can better, how we can make AI better,
2261710	2266050	how we can pour better money into it instead of giving it to the bad actors,
2266050	2268470	because bad actors are also employing it, right?
2268470	2270550	Got it.
2270550	2271260	Bryson.
2271850	2272520	Iran.
2273090	2274790	We haven't talked about Iran.
2274910	2281690	First, I would say Iran is the same as Russia in a regional power that's primary strategy is chaos.
2281910	2285010	The reason I'm using Iran as an example tied to artificial intelligence
2285010	2288960	is I remember when Iran first started to try to do disinformation campaigns.
2289590	2290990	They were bad.
2290990	2292050	They were horrible.
2292050	2297490	They were the Nigerian scam email to send 10 million dollars to a prince.
2298050	2300850	Because they didn't have the language capabilities built up
2300850	2303630	and the intelligence services to be able to effectively do them.
2303650	2305770	Artificial intelligence removes that.
2306330	2311130	I type in my language, native English spits out on the backside.
2311530	2312950	The second part of this.
2313630	2316620	Disinformation and those kinds of campaigns are effectively marketing,
2317190	2319830	which means from a system perspective, the better,
2319830	2322450	the more statistical data-driven insights I can have,
2322450	2326690	the quicker I can recognize what messages go viral to what populations
2326690	2329910	and I can have a technographic profile that I can exploit.
2330090	2334170	Well, that can be a machine feeding a machine with looking at that data and doing that
2334170	2337710	because there's no consequence to getting caught.
2338250	2339670	There's no consequence.
2340190	2343070	We can try to shut things down, but as we've noted,
2343070	2345110	Twitter isn't exactly helping with that.
2345110	2347030	Sorry, X, are we really even calling it that?
2347030	2348290	What the fuck is that?
2349130	2353270	Tying it back into attacks though, so I can now do this at scale.
2353270	2356470	Well, what's the most common initial access vector to hack somebody?
2357050	2357770	Email.
2358570	2362930	Well, email requires a human to look at things, read a language, and decide to do something.
2363390	2364790	We've just solved that problem.
2364790	2366930	That's what AI is doing from a threat perspective.
2369130	2371510	All right, let's open it up for a couple questions.
2371510	2373570	I saw a hand go up there.
2378460	2379640	Oh, louder.
2379640	2380840	It is loud in here.
2381420	2383040	All right, let's go here.
2383920	2385060	All right, thank you.
2385060	2389620	So I really share your concern about poll workers and trust in the process,
2389620	2393560	because if we don't trust the outcome, it doesn't matter if it's right at the end of the day.
2393760	2399980	And in Vegas, I'm thinking there's processes here where I don't distrust my dealer or the pit boss
2399980	2402140	or the machine, the slot machine, right?
2402140	2404480	Somehow I just figure that's worked out, there's a process.
2405040	2408080	Can we do the same thing for our processes for voting, where the people is like,
2408080	2412340	we have people who are human who may have their own motivations, but we don't care,
2412340	2416060	because it's a secure process with insecure people running it.
2416060	2419300	Can we get to the point where I feel comfortable volunteering to be a poll worker,
2419300	2422780	because I know there's enough checks and balances and people understand the process
2422780	2425940	is that I don't have to trust you because I know the system works.
2426140	2427780	Is that an approach?
2427780	2428780	And maybe I'm just ignorant.
2428780	2430180	We already have these things, and I know that.
2430180	2432520	But we've had these video cameras where people are like,
2432520	2434780	look, they're taking boxes under the table or whatever.
2434840	2437500	Can we fix that part so people can trust that?
2438600	2447340	I think, so I'll give you my view of this first, and then let the panel chime in.
2447920	2451680	We can do a lot, technically.
2452300	2455340	We can do a lot to shore up vulnerabilities in the system.
2455340	2461360	In fact, as Bryson was talking about earlier, the good work state and local election officials
2461360	2467480	did to roll out more voter verifiable paper audit trails for the 2020 election.
2467480	2471400	According to the Center for Election Innovation and Research,
2471400	2477660	the 2016 election, it was fewer than 80% of votes cast had a paper ballot associated with it.
2477660	2484260	By the time we hit 2020, due in part to rolling out or getting rid of some of these DRE systems
2484260	2491000	without the sidecar paper due to the increase in mail-in balloting, it was around 95%.
2491580	2495520	And I think one thing we can do, again, if we are purely approaching this from a technical
2495520	2499780	perspective, is continue to get as close to 100% as we can, understanding that due to
2499780	2504180	accessibility reasons, we'll always have DREs throughout the ecosystem.
2504880	2510600	All that said, there are threat actors on the other side that have incentive structures of
2510600	2514860	power, greed, or power, influence, and money that will continue to introduce doubt,
2514860	2516680	despite all available evidence.
2516680	2519020	And again, this is what we're talking about happening in 2020.
2519160	2524600	So, yes, we can cram down as much as possible on some of the trust issues
2524600	2528740	associated with elections, but there are always going to be bad actors out there that,
2528740	2532740	for one reason or another, are going to take any little, again,
2532740	2541340	wobble in the system and turn that into some fanciful tale that will continue forever.
2541700	2542580	Forever.
2542740	2549880	There always will be, and it's on us, actually, to make sure that we are louder than them.
2550320	2552980	And that's the main thing, because it's a great question.
2552980	2558300	What is happening in Poland right now is that both opposition and the government,
2558300	2561980	government that is responsible for the elections on the 15th of October,
2561980	2565260	are saying there are threats for the integrity of the elections.
2565500	2566500	I mean, come on, right?
2566500	2567780	But why they are doing it?
2567780	2573100	Because if they're going to lose, they may say like, you know, what happened in 2020 in the US?
2573100	2578760	And what happened in 2020 in the US is that before that, as far as I'm concerned,
2578760	2584500	you were rather having like one thing that no matter whether you are Republican or Democrat,
2584500	2586480	you are trusting within the system.
2586480	2588680	You trust that democracy is working.
2589480	2594060	And even though those machines are working great, right?
2594060	2598520	They were checked, they were hacked or tried to hack, and everything is perfect.
2599420	2603260	The issue is that there is this disinformation threat.
2603260	2614360	And there's not enough proper information to go to people and tell them it is safe, it's trusted.
2614420	2618940	And it's not that something that we should just like, you know, do a big elaborate,
2618940	2625220	but rather make a simple communication campaign on making sure and showing that it's trustful.
2625500	2630220	Just to build on this real quick, one thing that I think we can do is,
2630220	2634900	from your point of stratcom, strategic communications, increase transparency into the process.
2634900	2638060	So some of the stuff that Stephen Richard's been doing in Maricopa County,
2638060	2644900	and I know some of the guys here, of opening up the process to the outside,
2644900	2649140	to come view it, to track it, to provide transparency on the process.
2649740	2652600	Take away the opportunities for everyone else.
2652600	2654240	Set the narrative and you go drive that.
2654580	2654800	All right.
2654800	2658160	Yeah, so I would, you know, it's a great point, a great question.
2658260	2659400	Something to kind of keep in mind.
2659400	2660780	You guys hear me in the back, by the way?
2660780	2662440	I'm trying to speak a little louder without being...
2663680	2664320	I know, right?
2664320	2665220	Party on the left.
2665220	2665740	Yeah.
2666540	2667000	Okay.
2667000	2668620	So I'm going to try to speak a little louder.
2668740	2674300	One of the things that I try to remind people is that, you know, I can stick 10 of the most
2674300	2679300	brilliant engineering technical minds in a room and say, how do we fix this problem?
2679300	2679840	Right?
2680180	2681580	We've got a lot of that here.
2681780	2683000	Here's what happens.
2683100	2688620	There's always some, pardon my French, there's always some asshole lawyer that says, illegal.
2688620	2689440	Right?
2689440	2694500	And so part of what we try to work on and try to find our way around is this sort of
2694500	2702280	tethering of protection and freedom with, like, the legal foundry, you know, like, how
2702280	2704160	do we navigate those type of boundaries?
2704160	2704320	Right?
2704320	2711120	We have this nasty patchwork privacy system at the state level that makes it really hard.
2711120	2711700	Right?
2711800	2713080	Incredibly difficult.
2713080	2718200	And I think part of that is one of the ways that Germany has actually made it at least
2718340	2723900	a little bit easier because they have taken such a, like, an extreme risk-based approach.
2723900	2728240	But here in the States, it's really tough to protect some of these institutions and
2728240	2732300	some of these processes because so many of the great things that we would want to do
2732300	2734340	would be super illegal.
2734340	2734800	Right?
2734800	2739680	And so at the state level and into at the national level as well, trying to figure out,
2739680	2744460	well, what's the best process we can implement to sort of make that smoother?
2744460	2749420	And as we've seen, just trying to get federal privacy rights, it's a very long road ahead.
2749900	2750180	All right.
2750180	2750840	But it's cool.
2750840	2753000	Bryson, you get to close this out here.
2753320	2754440	Go be a poll worker.
2754720	2755480	Volunteer.
2755480	2756660	Be a part of the solution.
2756660	2757680	Be there at the ground.
2757680	2757900	Right?
2757900	2760100	A lot of this is high-level stuff.
2761820	2764580	Go get your hands in it.
2764880	2766200	See it for yourself.
2766600	2770880	Then tying that back to government is accountable to you and that's the transparency and the
2770880	2772700	communication they need to be pushing.
2772700	2775920	Now you're a part of that because you're seeing it at the bottom and you're seeing it at the top.
2775980	2779980	In 2020, I think we had 93% coverage with the states from the federal level, which
2779980	2781760	we had never had that before.
2781760	2784880	And that was something nobody even knew we were doing that in that kind of collaboration.
2785140	2789020	Then the final piece, which was in Matt's presentation, that's why risk-limited auditing
2789020	2789840	is what it is.
2789840	2793920	We have a data science approach to being able to statistically sample to then be able to
2793920	2795420	show what we learned.
2795420	2800700	And if there is the potential of fraud or abuse, we can prove it and we can understand
2800700	2801720	the extent of it.
2801720	2806520	Because just because something is slightly broken doesn't mean the whole system is.
2807200	2808160	All right, folks.
2808260	2809440	I think that's it.
2809440	2812580	I apologize that we don't have more time for questions.
2812580	2816140	Please send your complaints to whoever decided to name this place Caesars Forum.
2817360	2818360	Thank you.